Controversial discussion on animal welfare

Yesterday, I was involved in a discussion with a woman who lived in Tunesia for 5 years, and now had to return to Germany for family matters. She mentioned the cats living in Tunesia, ferals mostly, who are occasionally fed by people but usually eat the garbage. The life span of these cats is - of course - short. She thinks that's the way it should be, and that natural selection is a good thing (she's referring to herself as an animal lover and believes animals have a soul). She believes a cat should live free and rather die before ending up in an animal shelter.

I told her about the trap spay neuter release-organisations like Cat Care in Kassel, who help to reduce the amount of wildly born kittens, and she thought that's an ridiculous and unnatural effort and a waste of money. She didn't believe me when I told her about the suffering and dying in the feral populations, and when I mentioned viral diseases, she answered that this subject was only pushed by the pharmaceutical industry. :(

At that point of the conversation, I got upset and mentioned people I know (PT people mostly) who give literally their last cent to help cats, but with that, I obviously touched a sore spot. She argued she would never understand why people from so called rich countries (like the US or Germany) would spend money on animals instead of giving it to the poor. It's true that many families are living in poverty now in Germany, and so they do in other countries as well, so I can kind of relate to her point, but I also believe that animals on this planet need our help also.

I then made a radical statement: Told her that my sympathy for the human race is limited anyway, as it's the one species that managed in only a couple of centuries to bring our nature totally out of balance. No other species did so much damage to Mother Earth and abuses all live on this planet, just for their own greed. Many species are already gone, and many more will follow, not from natural selection and evolution but from our irresponsible acting. And I told her that's why I'm happy when there are people now who have realized what's going on and who try to give back at least a little bit to the animals.

When I finished, she was like "Uhm, well, you're kind of right with that", and changed the subject... :)

Kirsten

I wonder what she'd think of Pet Talk if she ever got on this site?????? :D

Deb

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Originally Posted by Soapets

I wonder what she'd think of Pet Talk if she ever got on this site?????? :D

Deb

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My thoughts too...! It was brave of you to stand up against her, Kirsten!!

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She argued she would never understand why people from so called rich countries (like the US or Germany) would spend money on animals instead of giving it to the poor.

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I would have argued that while yes, there are the poor in many countries, many of those people have programs they can turn to, in time of need. They also have organizations that will speak out on their behalf and support them. The animals have only us to speak for them and help them out in their time of need.

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She believes a cat should live free and rather die before ending up in an animal shelter

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Did you ask her if she was a member of PETA??? The above comment sounds like a PETA argument.

I don't think she'd last 2 second on this site with her limited beliefs. WAY too many animal lovers here.

Kirsten, it's sad that so many people think like her, I suppose it has to do with lack of education, and also selfcenteredness (is there such a word?). :(

I can totally agree with Moosmom's argument, but I'm afraid that woman wouldn't want to listen. You can probably present all the proof in the world, and she still wouldn't believe it.

I'll bet she doesn't have any pets.

Good for you, standing up to her!

Kirsten you managed very well arguing with her, I am usually very bad in doing this and I better avoid...which is the complete wrong way to try to open their eyes, I know :(

I am always amazed to see that some people never realize that humans are not the only living creatures on this planet, and that with ONLY humans, we could not survive, that all living creatures are interacting with each other.
I would be curious to know if this woman really helps the poor people, though... It is very rare to find persons who give everything they have to humans and nothing at all to animals, even just a bit of consideration :confused:

And I agree that it probably has something to do with lack of education and consciousness of their surrounding world.
Not far from me, my mother-in-law hates cats. When she was young she used to know cats only has farm/barn cats. They have to live outside, survive as they can, and not be too close to us (at least to her!). No need to tell you that she probably thinks I am completely crazy when she sees me kissing and spoiling my cat, and talking to him :D

Kirsten, I have to agree and say I am very proud of the way you stood up to the woman. Whenever some tells me that it is not worth my time to spend money on them, I tell them essentially the same thing you did about the human race. I also point out to the person, why the world is in the shape it is today because of the way humans have abused it. AND, that there were not cats or dogs flying those planes that hit the Trade Towers!! That usually shuts them up!! GOOD SHOW!!! Sandra

GOOD for YOU holding your beliefs up with this person and holding your ground!

I would have told her that EVERYONE has a place in this world, the rich and the poor. Some are poor by choice, preferring to live the simpler life. I have known such people during my life. I grew up poor and I feel I am a better person because of it and I do not need fine and fancy. I think there are more important things in this world than fancy houses, clothes or cars. It is how you treat your neighbor, your friends and loved ones and how they treat you. Your relationship with God is the most important thing and how you treat the creatures He created.

If you look at other countries, you can see that things develop everywhere. In very poor countries many people don't have the money to have spoiled pets like we have.

Even in these countries you will find people who treat animals well and others who don't.

As soon as the countries develop and get wealthier their relationship to pets changes as well: some families will have pets and e.g. as a tourist you will find shops that sell pet food- something that will not be found in countries where the strays just live from table craps.

I was very happy when I saw a family in Thailand with their big yellow dog (typical Thai style- like a mix of boxers, labs, retrievers and GSDs) wearing a bandana round his neck;)

So it is a cultural thing: if in your own culture poor children cannot get basic medical care (e.g. parts of South East Asia where polio still exists) then you may be upset if you see overweight pets with diabetes lying on a custom made sofa.

On the other hand if you see a cat in Sri Lanka (as I have seen) that is thin like a skeleton and in fact starving your heart breaks. One of our authors lives in Bali and there are no vets who can perform surgery in cats (like neutering). They don't have the instruments. But even in these countries you can find people who help the animals. Simply because they have a heart.


The only possibility is the development of these countries. Their relationship to pets reflects the relationship our own grandparents had: to consider them as useful, to treat them well but not with love- and to live with the fact that they might die and to replace them. Now for us it is different. And it is a fact that we can afford it to be different. In this case our relative wealthyness (even the poorest of us Westerners is much richer than.......) could buy us the unique experience of sharing our feelings with an animal. Sometimes I call Filou "my little predator" and I just cannot believe how close two different species like he and me can be :)

If Animals ruled the World you would have no hungry people,as Animals share more than people ever will.
There are poor because there are so many Greedies who take more than thier share,more than they need.
I remember reading about farm surpluses where they would pour out the extra milk,and put lime on the extra produce,so the poor couldnt have any.
Pets would spread the welth around so allcould eat.
I am proud of you Kirsten,the way you spoke out,and The Found Cats are too.

Kirsten, first of all let me tell you how proud I am of you and that you have done a marvelous job holding your ground in the conversation.

If anything, your exchange with the person from Tunisia underscores the divide between industrialized and developing countries, a point that others in this thread have also mentioned. Her attitude, unfortunately, is one shared by most people in her situation. I should know about this too, being an immigrant from a "developing" nation in Southeast Asia. Where I came from, poverty afflicted 75% of the population, and spoiling one's pets, never mind spending the money to spay or neuter them, was seen as an unnecessary indulgence. Some of our friends and neighbors back in the old country couldn't understand why we fed stray cats when we hardly had enough money to put food on the table. (I guess we were crazy.)

I was fortunate enough to have immigrated with my family to the States 20 years ago; at least here, finding the resources, financial or otherwise, to take care of one's pets does not have to turn into a discussion of whether you end up depriving your family of food in the process.

I still think about the strays in the neighborhood we left 20 years ago, and I end up feeling depressed that were it not for the kindness of strangers, they would all fall victim eventually to the "natural selection" your acquaintance described.

Let's hope that in our lifetime, we will see the economic conditions in these "developing" nations improve to the point that caring for feral animals will no longer be considered an unnecessary indulgence.

LOL; something's telling me that Pet Talk wouldn't be the right place for her! ;) And I guess she wouldn't agree with my catmom-website also! :D


Well, as she lived in Tunesia for five years, a very poor country, I could kind of relate to what she said. Like Barbara has pointed it, it's a cultural thing also. She had a dog in Tunesia, and several cats (I think these cats were strays and lived in her backyard or so). The dog stayed with her and lives in Germany now.

The discussion made me upset anyway because I don't like being attacked for my opinion. I try to respect other peoples' opinions and look at them from their point of view, but I want mine to be respected also. To me, every creature on this planet has a right to live. I'm not a rich person; the money I make with my job is just enough for my girls and me, but if I had more, I would give it to animals. Maybe humans also, but it would be the animals in the first place. As moosmom has said, there are already lots of organizations for human needs, but the animals need more help.

I don't know, maybe I'm different from many other people, but I have been born with a deep love for animals, and their little innocent souls. We, the humans, have already lost so much of this innocence, and I think this is why every animal on this planet has the ability to touch my heart...

Kirsten

Kirsten, you did a wonderful job of supporting your beliefs and standing up on behalf of the helpless kitties in this world! It sounds like you even left this woman a bit speechless! I think you set her mind to some new ideas! :eek: ;)

Hugs,
Kim

My son once said. "You can tell how someone will treat other people by the way they treat animals". I'm inclined to agree. Kirsten, you spoke not only for yourself but for countless others as well. I commend you for speaking out and holding your ground.