some form of SA?

ok it has crossed my mind before that Misty could have seperation anxiety, however that thought quickley left because it is supposed to be everywhere if you are gone and crate is a solution. however this is sort of the opposite, Misty completly freaks out if she is in a crate and cant see me. for example if I put her in the wire crate and walk around the cornor she freaks out and tries to destroys the crate trying to get out, my mom said when I put her in the plastic kennel this morning(she is in season, the wire kennel is out of the question) and when I went to my exam, my mom said that Misty was freaking out, that she was barking and slamming the kennel nearly breaking it she was freaking so much. however if she cannot see me and is not trapped anywhere she is just fine. the problem is that she has to be kennel when nobody is home or she will counter surf, while she is not that big she can reach suprisingly far. putting her just in a room is out of the question its because of that bright idea that we replaced 3 doors last summer(the bathroom door, the front door, and the back screen door) she appears to be happy as long as she knows that I know she is there, for axample if I crawl around and pretend I dont know where she is, she will freak out, its a game I always played with Happy, Happy is fine with it and takes it as just that, a game. but when I tried it with Misty her eyes went wide, she started crying really loud and jumping on me etc whatever she could to get my attention and fast and as soon as she got it she is crying in my lap licking my face. needless to say I dont do that with her anymore lol what could it be? it almost seems like SA but not really, and I have never read anything like it beforel. :confused:

On one hand you say she is fine when she is free and you are not there but on the other you say she freaks out even if you play some form of hide and seek with her and she can't see you. I'm not sure I followed the three doors being replaced... was it because she scratched them up?

I do believe what you described is seperation anxiety. Your best form of treatment is to find a veteraniary behaviorist in your area to work with you on this problem one on one. Your vet may also prescribe mild sedatives to calm Misty if the problem is really severe. In the mean time, try to find something that Misty likes to distract her attention from you being gone. For Dixie it was giving her Cube busters filled with treats she had to work on to get the treat out. By the time she lost interest in it, I was long gone and she was ok.

It's not an easy task to deal with a seperation anxiety filled dog but it can be done. You just need to figure out some calming stratagies and behavior modification plans. I suggest a behaviorist to help because this is not a one cure solution for all dogs. What works for one dog doesn't work for another. A behaviorist will be able to analyze you and Misty and perhaps "see" what will work to help.

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On one hand you say she is fine when she is free and you are not there but on the other you say she freaks out even if you play some form of hide and seek with her and she can't see you. I'm not sure I followed the three doors being replaced... was it because she scratched them up?

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lol sorry probably should have made that more clear. if I am not home and she is free she does not destroy anything, but if I pretend I cant see her but she can see me she freaks out, does not destroy anything just freaks out crying and clawing me, anything to get my attention. as for the 3 doors she crashed through the front door quite a while ago, she shattered the glass and we had to board up the door till a new one could be made, as we have an old house from before standerized doors to we had to have one custum made. the bathroom door my mom put her in there for a few minuts thinking it would be fines she was just going to get the door, but Misty completly ripped apart the enitre bottom half of the door, as in the bottom HALF of our bathroom door was in peices spread all over the place and we had a huge hole in the door lol the back screen door she shredded trying to get back inside the house, like she will go outside, do her buisness then if I am not outsude with her or standing at the door watching her she right away runs to the door and starts barking and clawing, eventually she totally shredded the screen and broke the bottom section. over the summer my grandpa replaced both the bathroom door and the bottom of the screen door with oak.

Why oh why do I only get sucked in to these things when it is so very late?!?!? I'm tired so it is likely to be a bit of a ramble here - go get a cup of tea and settle in!

The first thing I would like to ramble on about is what seperation anxiety actually is. To people it is a set of destructive, noisy, panicky, self harming and other disturbing behaviours exhibited by their dog because the dog loves them so much it can't cope with life without that person. The dog is so totally devoted to the owner that any form of seperation is unbearable for the dog. Most humans find this a rather appealing aspect to owning a dog as long as the behaviour is low level and is controlled by the owner simply "being there" - for instance the dog that follows you around like a shadow is seen by people as a loyal and faithful friend when the dog is actually displaying low level SA.
A dog displaying SA will invariably be getting messages from the owner that are meant as sympathetic and comforting - the owner is making every effort to show the dog that it is loved.

Herein lies the problem - humans don't communicate with dogs the same way that dogs communicate with humans. In a sense humans are too clever for their own good in a human-canine relationship. The intentions of human communication seem very clear and easy to understand to the human - I love you, I'm sorry you feel bad, I want to make you feel better. The more the human gives these messages the worse the behaviour of the dog becomes - the human tries harder to show the dog how much it is loved and tries to comfort it even more - the dog gets worse - the human increases efforts to comfort and love the dog - the dog gets worse....you get the picture.

Before looking at the dog's viewpoint in this situation it is important to review what a "dog" actually is.
Basically it is a domesticated wolf (I have been studying jackals lately and have found their posturing and vocalisations in many instances a lot clearer and easier to connect to the domestic dog - the basic language hasn't changed - it's still wolf speak with a regional accent - it's just easier to detect, especially their dominance stances in general) and still operates and behaves as though it is a wolf. It still communicates as though it is a wolf, still expects and needs the intricate social interactions of the pack and still has an innate sense of self preservation if that pack structure fails to develop, is inconsistent or falls apart. We, as humans, have had a profound influence on the domestic dog. We have manipulated the shape, basic breed behaviour, colour, size, eye colour, ear length, coat density and length along with a host of other genetically controlled characterisicts by intervening in the natural process of wolves breeding. But the major problem we had to get over was that a wolf grows up into a competitive, intelligent, physically and mentally strong adult that is, at the end of the day, willing to go to any lengths to ensure that the basic need for it's genetic survival is met. So we manipulated the wolf into the domesticated dog by ensuring that even the sexually mature entire male was stuck, behaviourally, in puppyhood. Anyone who thinks they have an "Alpha" animal on their hands is so very lucky they never have to deal with a low ranking wolf in their house!!!! All the instincts are there, the needs to behave in a certain way, and it can be tough to handle - at times even dangerous, but you are still dealing with a wolf that never grew up. You are also dealing with a wolf that never had a language lesson.

From the dog's point of view there is only two reasons to get frantic when the owner is out of sight - something bad happens to you when the owner is away or the owner is not being the strong alpha leader that the you need to feel safe.

A strong leader in dog terms is one that never pays attention to the greetings of the other members of the pack (the leader has more important things to do like gaze off into the distance and enjoy the minions grovelling at his feet!) in the morning or after a hunt or at any time when he returns to the pack. Trouble starts when the lower members of the pack rush up to greet the leader and the leader responds to them by acknowledging them - it can only mean, to the lower members, that the leader has had a situation where he felt threatened or afraid and needs reassurance or that he is hurt/wounded/too old to carry on very much longer as leader. Either way it is a sign that the leader 'aint up to the job of keeping the pack safe, fed and secure anymore. It creates tension. Each wolf in the pack then begins to look for another leader - it is the natural order, a pack needs a leader - if no individual can gain control, act in the appropriate manner of a leader and gain the trust of the pack then every individual has a self preservation instinct that kicks in - if nobody is good enough to look after me then I have no choice but to take control and look after everyone!

This is, very basically, what seperation anxiety is in the domestic dog. the dog is not upset because the owner has left it but because it, the dog, has failed to be a good leader. It has failed to control the pack. Despite the dog's best efforts at being a leader the pack has gone off to do whatever it wants and the dog is left - a "leader" unable to lead. In human terms the stress on the animal would be like training for years to become a plumber, going for years on a limited income, finally getting qualified, going through the worry and stress of setting up your own business and finding your first client expects you to fly a military jet to China, over Russia, refuel in mid-air, cover Iraq and Afghanistan and land in Iran without being detected.

In case you were wondering and in the very remote chance that you have stayed with me this far - the short answer is, yes your dog is suffering SA.

lol I am actually quite fluent in "dog" ;) I may be young but I am a very proficiant trainer, and the person most people go to for training help etc.. it sounds like you follow a lot of Jan Fennels stuff? to be honest I dont much like her, I am a Suzanne Clothier follower, with my dogs anyway Fennels methodes dont do squat, but Cloithers works within minutes. do you know if there is anything about SA is Cloithiers book "bones would rain from the sky" ? I have the book currently but I have not read the whole thing yet as I have exams lol I appreciate your taking the time to post all that, I may know it but that does not mean others do lol and thank both of you for the second and third opinions, that is what I needed to confirm my suspisions, as the first time I asked a long time ago everyone said it was nothing and I was not as involved in dog training at the time so I just tossed the idea out the window. :o

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if I am not home and she is free she does not destroy anything,

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If this is the case, then I don't understand the problem? Why not just leave her out in the house when you are not there?

Mmmmmmmmmm.

No, I do not "follow" Jan Fennel. I have read her books and happen to agree with a lot of what she says although I was using my methods long before she published hers. The main part of what she says is that this method/theory is something she thought up - it isn't. She came up with the same thoughts and theories through the same methods of study and observation that a great many behavioural scientists before her, with her and after her have. It is not a new theory or behavioural program and I certainly did not adopt my philosophy from her. She does, however, have a gift for putting the behaviourist language into laymans terms. This does have the disadvatage that many people do not truly understand the principle behind the theory and only get the basics and find it very hard to put it into practice without demonstration or support.
I suggest you read the books you have and make up your own mind on behavioural theory, find a technique that works for you, which is usually an individual style for every dog, and I would encourage you to develop your interest as far as you can - you obviously have an interest and passion that you could push into a career. Psychology, behaviour, phsysiology, developmental sciences - be it canine, other animal or human will be fascinating for you.
Please be aware that your greatest source of information, in any field, is the network of people you make contact with through your research and contributations to the field. Even if somebody's theory is something you disagree with, it is still valuable as it gives you an opportunity to try and strenghten your own through trials.

lol sorry I just meant it sounds like you use the same type of methods she does :p I will look through the books some more and see what I can find :)

jennifer, I cant just leave her out for the main reason that she counter surfs, and I dont need her getting hurt if someone leaves a knife on the counter or something. and also that she only gets along with Happy when I am there(same breed but they have totally differnt styles, Happy sleeps when I am gone, if Misty is out she just wants to play and she loves to wrestle, if Happy is the only dog out she will start going after her, which just pisses Happy off, and Happy will pin Mistys head to the ground and seeing as how Misty is alpha of the dogs that does not go over so well lol)