Okay, let's hear some of your equine questions

I have been asked by a few about my experience with horses and then asked if I would answer a few questions. (You can see a self description in the "My Bunnies!" thread of the Pet General forum) We were in totally unrelated threads, so I suggested that we start new on focusing on Equinebehavior. I am a formal behaviorist, it is what I do. I love to help in any way I can, so fire away. Just give me as detailed a question as you can, since, just as in human lanquage, eqqus is dependent on the context it is in.

I look forward to this, make us of me!:D

It's not really behaviour related but I would, as an equine behaviouralist, appreciate your opinion.

I have had my boy, Ross, for 8 years now. Unfortunately he boards at stables. When I went to university 3 years ago he went to live with my dad (who has a field and stables for him and he had horsey company). My dad didn't get on with Ross so I ended taking him away after he had been there 6 month to a temporary home for 2 months, he then went to a stables near my mum. He stayed there for a year before the owner out of the blue branded him destructive and dangerous and gave me 24 hours to move him (I have never seen any evidence before or since of what she accussed him of) he stayed in a field with a friends neighbours small pony that night and moved to the current yard he is at the next day.

The dilemma I have is whether or not to move him again next month. I feel so bad having moved him around so much, every time it was out of my hands, for the 4 years before he went to my dad's he lived happily at the same yard (until they closed and he went to my dads). In the past 2 years he has in effect lived at 5 places which must have been very unsettling for him. I am staying in the city where I have been at university for the next year or two and Ross is at home at the yard where my mum lives (200 miles away). I like the yard he is at, it has brought the best out in both of us but as space is limited they cannot offer turnout all summer which he desperately needs, in the summer he goes out for only 4 hours daily which is really not enough. I will also hardly get to see him, whilst at uni I saw him for a month at christmas, a month at easter and 3 months over the summer.

Is it fair to move him again so soon when he has only been at his current yard for a year? I have found several nice yards here for him, all offering 24 hour turnout in the summer. I will also be able to see him most days, if not everyday (he will stay on full livery so his care will be seen to). Is it selfish of me to move him? Especially when we may be moving again in a year or two.

Many thanks

Equine, I still have some questions for you, would you prefer it if I wait until you answer Shellonabeach first or should I go ahead and post them and you will do more than one at a time?

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Originally posted by shellonabeach
It's not really behaviour related but I would, as an equine behaviouralist, appreciate your opinion.

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Actually, this is more behavior based than you realize, for several reasons. First, horses are creatures of habit. In this, they prefer familiars, constants, and are made uncomfortable by change (but don't go thinking just yet that you shouldn't move him again). Second, horses are herd animals. They don't just identify with being around other equines, but they identify with individual beings that they have been around. Horses, dogs, goats, people that they have been around, have had active, mainly positive interaction with have a huge impact on them. They do get very attatched to individuals and identify their herd, which equates safety and comfort to them, by those individuals.

So, these things taken into consideration, lets look at your relationship with Ross, versus leaving him where he is.

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I have had my boy, Ross, for 8 years now.

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This alone is a significant issue. You have had this horse for a huge part of his life. You are probably more constant to him than anything he has ever had. Certainly you have been absent for much of the latter third, but you have become a constant and a big part of his life, and therefor herd during the first 5 years.

Also, you have always returned. True, his environment has changed, horse friends have come and gone, but you have always returned. You have even taken him out of situtations where he obviously was not having good interactions with other beings who were temporarily involved in his life. Horses do not just forget people when they dissapear for a while, especially with an interaction as long and presumably possitive as you have been with him. I am sure he knows you and who you are to him.

Now, as much as horses hate change, they can be very adaptive if they have a sort of a support system. Wild herds roam hundreds of miles each year. They will come to strange territory many times in their lives. But what helps them overcome that fear of the unknown is their family, the herd they are with. Horses can find tremendous comfort in a less than ideal situation if they have someone they trust and is grounding for them to help them feel a sense of constant. Now this doesn't necessarily mean you will have to baby him day and night every time you move him, but if he knows you are going to return sometime after you leave him, he will be content with that as a constant. It sounds like the situation that you would be moving him to would be perfect for him to get more time with you, and that you will be able to interact with him often enough to possibly avoid emotional problems that may well surface if he ends up feeling like he has lost you, which may be what has happened in the past.

Now, another thing to consider, horses are open space animals. They need space, God made them this way. Our comforts tell us to stable them, to confine them. But instinct tells them to keep as much open space around them as possible to be able to keep and eye out for pretitors. Horses are adaptable, but when compared to ones who are stabled more than 12 hours a day, loose horses are much more relaxed, maintain weight better, have less respritory ailments, and have fewer vices. It sounds like the yard nearest to you will not only allow for more free time out for himself, but he will get more exercise and interaction with you to come work with him regularly.

Now, a little experience of my own to help you feel better.... I had an Arab gelding since he was 21 days old. I was definately a constant in his life til he was 9. In the end, I then went through a rough divorce and had to board him at my best friends. Through the 9 years that I had him, I moved from Idaho, to Washington State, to California, to Texas, back to Washington, then around that state about 4 times before he settled at my friend's. After my divorce I was forced to sell him, fortunately to my friend, who fell in love with him. I couldn't stand to go see her though because I felt like I let him down. She was having her problems with him, he liked to play games that she didn't know how to play, but it was all in fun. But, when I finally mustered up the courage to go see him and her, after nearly 2 years, he NICKERED! when he heard my voice. He KNEW me, and was very excited to see me. I rode him some, and he was as perfect as he ever was for me, which made my friend jealous, but she laughed it off. She understands that I was his biggest constant in his life. He definately liked her and responded well with her, but I took presidence over her when I was there.

So, no, I don't think you would be selfish in any way to move him again, and to keep moving him, just as the herds of the wild move, so long as he can be with you. He will find his comfort in knowing you are there for him.

Vermontcat, your next, what's on your mind? And yes, let's do these one at a time. I train during the day and have kids, so I am not on the computer long enough to tackle more than one at a time. I want to explain, as you can tell, my resonings behind my answers for you as best as I can. I find people underdstand more when they see analogies or parallels, or are shown reasons why things are they way they are. :) The way I see it, the more a person understands the way their horses think, the better the world will be for all horses and people.

Shellonabeach, don't be afraid to ask for more clarification or make comments on what I said for your question, though, even with another question going.

Hope this is good for you guys. I am enjoying it so far!:D

EB, Thankyou so much, you have made me feel so much better about all the things I feel I have put Ross through.

When I first got him I was 14 and he was my 2nd horse, the first thing he did when we got him home was show what his previous owners had hidden, on hacks he reared, took off and was very nappy. My instructor could do nothing with him, but in the field and over jumps he was another horse. It took me 4 years of hard work on my own before I wasn't terrified of hacking him out. He's my horse and we both know it, when I ride other horses or someone else rides him it is just not the same.

With the new yard his well-being is my no1 concern, I don't care if they groom him everyday infact I just want him left alone with is horsey buddies out in the field in the summer and in the winter want his rugs changed and him put out all day.

"Now this doesn't necessarily mean you will have to baby him day and night every time you move him" oh but I do, even though I will pay for his care I will be with him morning and all evening fr the first month of his time there, as I have always done.

He's a funny thing, when I go home and see him for the first day he actually ignores me. No calling to me when I pull up in the car, no coming over to me from the field. And if I try to ride him he is most un-cooperative!!! The next day however it is like we have never been apart.

The yard owners daughter lives in the same city and has been talking about moving her horse, Cori. I am hoping that we can organise something and move the 2 horses together, to the same place and help care for both horses. That would be the almost perfect solution to me.

Finally those 8 years ago I sold my first pony, anther ratbag :) The family I sold him to ruined him (bowed tendons and he almsot died of laminitis) I couldn't bear to go and see him but I know they still own him. As soon as I am financially secure enough I am going to buy him back - rather than buy myself a bigger horse. To see him and Ross together is my ultimate dream, to know they are both safe and happy.

Thanks again EB, sorry vermontcat that I have waffled on so.

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Originally posted by shellonabeach
EB, Thankyou so much, you have made me feel so much better about all the things I feel I have put Ross through.

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Glad I could help. I really have put mine through similar, not the same, but similar situations. I have had the same concerns that you had expressed, and after trying to learn what they might be thinking of the mess, I came to understand the value they place on their herd memebers.

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When I first got him I was 14 and he was my 2nd horse, the first thing he did when we got him home was show what his previous owners had hidden, on hacks he reared, took off and was very nappy. My instructor could do nothing with him, but in the field and over jumps he was another horse. It took me 4 years of hard work on my own before I wasn't terrified of hacking him out. He's my horse and we both know it, when I ride other horses or someone else rides him it is just not the same.

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This very situation is what helps develope relationships, good and bad, between people and their horse. It either gets better or worse. Sounds like yours got better.

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"Now this doesn't necessarily mean you will have to baby him day and night every time you move him" oh but I do, even though I will pay for his care I will be with him morning and all evening fr the first month of his time there, as I have always done.

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Didn't say you shouldn't either! :) I totally understand the desire to make sure that he is settled and comfortable. Some horses have to have you stand there with them for hours before they can settle down, others are better if you just visit them them each day for a bit. They are are individuals just as we are.

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He's a funny thing, when I go home and see him for the first day he actually ignores me. No calling to me when I pull up in the car, no coming over to me from the field. And if I try to ride him he is most un-cooperative!!! The next day however it is like we have never been apart.

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This doesn't surprise me. Horses have disappointment also, and they can show it by ignoring the source of their feelings. If he holds is against you for leaving him fo so long, he could decide to ignore you to get his point across. I have seen in herds where a colt will irritate another horse, and what seems to fluster that colt more than active discipline is being ignored by the other horse. Later, the colt may have his friends undivided attention and all is well.

I know what you mean about your pony. I have had several like that I wish I could have "rescued" and retired at home. I wish you luck with your dream.

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First of all I'd like to say you I think you gave Shellonabeach good advice about her horse. I think it will be better if her horse is closer to her and she can spend more time with him.:) It sounds even better if she can move two horses together so he still has a familiar face from the old barn with him. Where I went to college it was nice that they allowed students to bring horses and board them at a barn just down the road from the dorms. One of my friends brought her horse and I spent many hours at the barn!

Ok, for the new question it is several questions about my friend's Thoroughbred Gelding who is about 8 or 9 years old and she has had him a little more than a year now. He is a retired racehorse, sweet with people, great to ride, I have ridden him english and on trail rides. He has several issues, some seem typical to the breed, he crib chews, he does wear one of those things that buckles around his neck(I forgot the name of it). He also is tall and thin(17 hands) and hard to fatten up, he is an active horse with a good metabolism. Since he is the newest horse of her 3, he is at the bottom of the pecking order and gets picked on a lot in the field especially by her QH Gelding who she has had the longest who is the alpha horse. He tends to get a lot of cuts etc from the other two horses nipping at and kicking at him. When they are out together they have a run in shelter with food but he may not be getting enough of his share of it with the other two horses pushing him around. He can be put in his stall when the other horses are being worked and I have heard there are extra feeds that can be given to help fatten up thin horses. One other thing with him is he has very sensitive skin which has a reaction to bug bites in the summer, he gets bumps all over, any advice on a fly spray that would help a thin-skinned sensitive Thoroughbred?
So I guess there are 4 questions total about crib chewing, fattening up a horse, pecking order and sensitivity to bug bites. Let me know if you need more details.:)

I hope I'm not treading on anyones toes here but Ross also swells up from fly bites.

I use a fly repellant with citronella and garlic in it and he also wears an "anti-fly sheet".

Shellonabeach, any input is welcome. Last summer she was spraying "Off" on him and he wore a fly screen over his eyes to keep them out of his eyes. The flies were very bad last summer. It was so hot last summer that after a 1 hour trail ride the fly spray seemed to have worn off and the flies were all over us!

Ok I'll give my take on this (and no way do I know half as much as EB)

The crib chew we call wind sucking (I'm in the UK) I presume this is what you meant because he wears the collar. For part of my dissertation I looked at stereotypies in horses, a consequence of windsucking was weight loss.

If these were my horses I wouldn't have him out with the other two who are obviously bullying him. To me having a horse kicked and bitten is unacceptable. In the wild this horse would be able to move on and get away from these horses. But in that same sentence I cannot bare to see a horse alone, perhaps he could be sought a more suitable companion who won't beat him up.

I have always been taught never to give hard feed in buckets out in the field when more than once horse is out there, because it is going to end in a fight, when the first one finishes he will push the subordinate out of the way and take his too. For feeding hard food they should all be brought in and separated. Hay should be spread about in many piles to ensure each gets enough. Here we can buy foods such as "weight gain". I think it may be a simple case of getting his teeth checked and removing him from the source of bullying so he can eat his fair share without worrying. If he is stressed that is also not going to help him gain weight. (We had a horse who had a lot of pain due to leg problems, the amount of weight she lost in a week due to pain and stress was unbelievable).

The bug bites, what colour is he out of interest? Ross is dark bay (almost black) and seems to get bitten far worse than all the other horses. Ross swells right up where he has been bitten, to the point if it is in the saddle/girth area I have to ride bareback or not at all.

I hope I said these things right, I know EB will put it better when she has time :)

I forgot to say about the bug bites, make sure all the sweat is washed off after every ride (or if he gets sweaty out in the field) as the sweat will only attract more bugs and more bites.

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Originally posted by Vermontcat
So I guess there are 4 questions total about crib chewing, fattening up a horse, pecking order and sensitivity to bug bites. Let me know if you need more details.:)

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Lets see. Some of these things may well be tied into each other, a cause and effect type of thing, very much like Shell said.

First, the weight issue is the most crucial. I would suspect, so long as the teeth are in good shape, not needing float or anything, and worming schedule is up to date, that the combination of stress, being at the bottom of the pecking order, the tendency to crib (which can be due to the stress and the lack of weight!), and the sensitivity this horse seems to have, could very well be why he won't keep weight on.

First, I would not completely isolate him, but set up a run for him to have all his own next to where the other horses are. I have a gelding who thinks he is still the boss man, and he will run other horses, primarily geldings, through fence. In the pasture where the other 5 horses are, we sectioned off part of the run-in for him and made a good sized run for him off that to be in. He is right next to everyone, but can't get to them to hurt anyone. This may help the gelding relax enough without adding the stress of being totally isolated from other horses to gain his weight back and stop cribbing.

However, cribbing is a pain in the rear to deal with, once it is a habit, even relaxed horses will do it. It has been theorized that endorphines are released when a horse does this, so it can actually be physically and mentally addicting. It can be started due to boredom, stress, or even mineral/vitimin deficencies.

I have found rather than collars, which often don't work, or only work when they are on (they know when you forget to put it back on), reduce the number of things he can get ahold of to clamp on to. What he can get a grip on, put some heavy duty NASTY tasting stuff on like Bitter Apple (make sure it is the outdoor formula) or even Shreiner's liniment (more expensive and not as long lasting, but MAN that stuff tastes BAD!) I have found other products just don't work, and I have had some BAD cribbers. It is also crucial to make certain the horse has access to a mineral salt block and is supplimented with a good B vitamin suppliment to help with any deficencies.

Once he is separated, he should gain on a typical diet. However, if he doesn't, beet pulp is one way to go to help him gain without making him hot. There are also some suppliments to help with weight gain, or a higher protein and fat diet can help. Adding corn oil to his grain, up to a cup a day, is a great fat addition, but it can make them hot. Or try canola oil, same fat without the corn carbs which make them hot.

As for the bug problem. Feed him garlic, dried and chopped if you can get it, in his grain. I have found that a 1000lb horse getting about 2-3 tbs a day in his grain of the dried (more potent) stuff makes a huge difference. We get mesquitos, no-seeums, and knats out here pretty badly in the summer. This makes a great difference. Also, nothing beats Skin-So-Soft bath oil for a fly spray. Just mist it on him, brush it in, and he is good to go for a couple days. Some people find it a bit strong smelling, but it works perfect. I have actually seen clouds of bugs hanging 2 feet off my horses wanting in, but that stuff offends them too much.

Hope this helps.

BTW, Shell, you had some good points.;)

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Yes, I also believe that the cribbing(wind sucking) and low weight are related and common to the Thoroughbred breed. I have known other horses with the same problems and they are always Thoroughbred! I am pretty sure his teeth are ok, she has had him for about a year and I am pretty sure she would have checked them when she bought him.
His owner recently fenced off a 2nd pasture next to the first one so he could be seperated from the others to reduce stress and being picked on in the field. They are only fed the hay and grass along with water in the field, grain is fed in the stalls. I think the beet pulp is what I have heard recommended before to fatten up a horse, I will suggest that and the other things you mentioned to his owner.
Equine and Shell, you both mention garlic for the flies, I hadn't thought of that before but it makes sense if it works on vampires why not flies too!;) I will also check out the Skin-so-soft, I know it works on kids so why not horses too!:)

"I forgot to say about the bug bites, make sure all the sweat is washed off after every ride (or if he gets sweaty out in the field) as the sweat will only attract more bugs and more bites."

Shell, after trail rides and riding lessons on hot days the horses get hosed down with cool water and love it (want to roll too!)

"The bug bites, what colour is he out of interest? Ross is dark bay (almost black) and seems to get bitten far worse than all the other horses. Ross swells right up where he has been bitten, to the point if it is in the saddle/girth area I have to ride bareback or not at all."

He is a dark seal brown, looks black in some light except is a lighter brown around the muzzle and a small white star. The bug bites seem to be the worst in the chest and neck area, I hate to curry over them or even brush over the bumps.

Thank you for the answers both of you. Would you believe that we had a snow day here today and school was cancelled! We will be getting more snow this weekend and most of next week so at this rate I won't get to the barn for a few weeks until all this snow melts and the mud goes away!