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Hi everyone.
I'm going to be signing Kia up for a Dog Training/Obedience class here soon when one becomes available.
Some flyers promote use of clickers, while others promote training methods without it, some want collars, others don't... ect.
My question is, in your opinion, what works? Or better yet, what made you choose the class you chose to train your dog.
Kia is 3, btw.
~Kimmy
I use the Koehler method and I believe that it is the best method. I don't belive in clickers, training dogs with treats don't get me either.
It depends on what you like. Alot of people hate the Koehler method and hate people that use the method. It's the only method that I'll use though, it's the only one that makes sense to me.
I am one of those people who hates the Koehler method, however; I do not hate the people who train this way. It's just that they have a difference of opinion. Let me back up a little if I may......Quote:
Originally posted by ShepherdLover:
<STRONG>I use the Koehler method and I believe that it is the best method. I don't belive in clickers, training dogs with treats don't get me either.
It depends on what you like. Alot of people hate the Koehler method and hate people that use the method. It's the only method that I'll use though, it's the only one that makes sense to me.</STRONG>
First off the Koehler method uses physical correction to train the dog. A lot of pop with a choke chain. Some dogs respond well to this and I have even trained a couple dogs on this method in my early days of dog training.
I no longer use this method and will never go back to it. I use only positive methods (reward for good behavior vs correct for bad behavior) now. Clicker training is positive and works well. My only problem is I don't always have my clicker with me when I want to work a dog so I substitute the word "YES" as my click.
The important thing to remember about positive training is it is repetitive and you must reward immediately when the behavior is demonstrated so you don't confuse the dog about what it's getting rewarded for.
My dogs all respond better to positive methods. This is my suggestion. Good luck in training!
Looks like we have the exact same views on this Dixie. I also hate the Koehler method. I hate choke chains with a passion too. Ugh, they make me cringe when a dog turns up loose at the shelter wearing one. Anyway, I don't hate *all* people who use these methods, but I do hate some. Hate is a strong word I guess but I am very passionate about my beliefs. I love everyone here at Pet Talk though, and if you are one of the ones who use one of these methods, I am sure you do it the right way. I just don't really agree with it.
We use all positive reinforcement at the shelter. I feel it is the absolute best way to train dogs. That is just my opinion though. You can start to see results pretty quickly with some things, while others (like leash walking) may take a bit longer. We have had some very untrained dogs come into the shelter: dogs that are over a year old who pull so hard on the leash your hands turn red, who jump all over you, who are mouthy, and some who are dominant on top of all that. We patiently take them through our positive reinforcement training and the results I have seen are amazing. So I feel this way not only works well, but also is not cruel. If wanted, I could post some exammples of how we train.
As far as clicker training, I never understood why people do it. I mean, there's nothing wrong with it, but it works the same way as a mark word. And since you always have your voice, but not always a clicker, I think the mark word is a lot better. I also use "YES!" as my mark word Dixie :)
So basically I would look for an obedience class that doesn't use choke chains and does use positive reinforcement.
I use a lot of Koehler and also some methods from the book Beyond Basic Dog Training by Diane Bauman.
Not everything works the same for every dog. I tried the treats once - Carl became so out of control with them that I had to start all over with all my training.
The reason I don't like treats, clickers, etc. is because I want my dog to work for me & my praise, not for treats.
Many people think that Koehler training creates unhappy working dogs; just take a look at Carl working - he gets so happy if he can do something to please me.
It's not all jerk and pull. First we show the dog what we want him to do. Once we are sure the dog knows the command & knows what is required of him, and he does not do it, he gets corrected for it. After the correction - praise! If he does it right from the beginning - praise!
I don't have any problem with other people doing it their way, as long as they will let me do it my way, without imposing their methods on me! :)
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Rottie ]
[ November 12, 2001: Message edited by: Rottie ]
Rottie, I want my dog to work for me and my praise too and not for treats! Treats are only used to reinforce a behavior until it is learned. If the dog knows the behavior and then refuses to do it then there is no treat and no praise. Once the behavior is known then treats are limited pretty much the same way the choke is eliminated. Then we work off of verbal praise. Remember this has to be the goal because in a competition ring you are not allowed to correct or treat a dog! If you do then you get a big fat 0 or a NQ (Non Qualifying) score.Quote:
Originally posted by Rottie:
<STRONG>The reason I don't like treats, clickers, etc. is because I want my dog to work for me & my praise, not for treats.
Many people think that Koehler training creates unhappy working dogs; just take a look at Carl working - he gets so happy if he can do something to please me.
It's not all jerk and pull. First we show the dog what we want him to do. Once we are sure the dog knows the command & knows what is required of him, and he does not do it, he gets corrected for it. After the correction - praise! If he does it right from the beginning - praise!
I don't have any problem with other people doing it their way, as long as they will let me do it my way, without imposing their methods on me! :)
</STRONG>
As I stated earlier, I have used both methods. The concepts of each are almost identical except one rewards good behavior and the other corrects bad behavior. The ultimate goal of both are to get the dog to listen to you the handler and to listen when told.
You are intitled to use any method you are comfortable with. If Koehler works for you then please use it. I just find rewarding my dog to be more enjoyable for both me and the dog!
That would be nice Aly.Quote:
If wanted, I could post some exammples of how we train.
:)
~Kimmy
i don't want to get down on any method, i would like to say though, that no matter what, i see some methods of Koehler as full blown abuse. such as sticking the dog's head in a water filled hole it dug to get it to quit digging.
sure, i use a lot of praise, but i also sometimes use butt swats. (not that i've had to do that in a long time.) praise works a lot better, but sometimes they are just like children, and it is the only way to get their attention. that and a LOUD voice.
most the time though, praise is the best teaching tool. and talking things though w/ them. it's amazing how much they actually do learn.
my biggest piece of advice is establishing a NO and Good. those will be the biggest factors.
I used the Koehler method on Rocky after
trying the positive methods.
The Koehler method worked the best
for him.
I have learned to combine the different
methods in my training.
I now brush up with using mostly positive training with Rocky, but the Koehler method was a great fondation. In my case Rocky was a hard core butt head.
You either hate the Koehler method or you don't.
I think a lot depends on the personality
of the dog on which method works best.
I prefer a combination of methods,
so I pick and choose from each. :)
And the same goes to you - use whatever method you like! :)Quote:
Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer:
<STRONG>
You are intitled to use any method you are comfortable with. If Koehler works for you then please use it. I just find rewarding my dog to be more enjoyable for both me and the dog!</STRONG>
Don't get the Koehler people wrong though, we do praise our dogs when they do what we ask. :) :) :)
I was surfing and found this great site on positive training methods. It is almost verbatim on how I train my dogs currently. I hope it helps!
Positive reinforcement obedience
Thanks for the link Dixieland Dancer. :)
I emailed Cher Car Kennels and Kia has an appointment today to meet with the owner to find out if their method of training is right for Kia.
Her emails were very nice and included this:
"Typically we use six foot leather leads, and choke chains, but will use proper equipment to suit the dog, her temperament, and your abilities."
Is that the Koehler method? Just curious.
There is another place that has classes starting in January that uses positive reinforcement to train.
Trainers Academy near Detroit uses clickers. I've heard good things about them.
Over all it looks like I have a wide variety of choices.
I appreciate your opinions on the matter.
~Kimmy
Graham is way too sensetive to use Koehler method. I would never use it on him, and don't expect to use it on any of my dogs, but I do have an open mind. I can't imagine positive reinforcement not working on every dog, but I have only experience with my dogs, I can't speak for all dogs.
I have used choke chains, but only use them in training (not on casual walks....EVER!) and I never, ever leave them on the dogs, even for a "break time". When they are in training, I slide the choke collar on, the moment they are off training, the choke collar comes off, and their regular collar is attached to the lead. I have never had to, nor would I ever, give strong corrections. I mostly just use it to let the dog know when it's training time...although I have not used it in years and years.
I personally don't care for clicker training. I would love to further Graham's obedience someday when he heals from his accident, but I can't seem to find many schools anymore who don't use clicker...it's the new fad I guess. I think praise is great, treats are good (as long as the dog does not get obsessed with treats). I don't see much of a need for clicker, but that's just my experience.
Kimmy,Quote:
Originally posted by Kim S.:
<STRONG>
Her emails were very nice and included this:
"Typically we use six foot leather leads, and choke chains, but will use proper equipment to suit the dog, her temperament, and your abilities."
Is that the Koehler method? Just curious.
</STRONG>
It may be part of the Koehler method. Koehler was very very popular in the late 60's and 70's. There are a lot of people who started training with his method and have incorporated their own FLAVOR over the years. This is how I started training and it does work. It's just I prefer to do it with the positive approach now.
When I train, I use targeting and cues that let the dog know we are working. No need for choke chains at all! Just a plain old buckle style flat collar is all I use. Good Luck in whatever you decide.
I'm sure if you want to know more about the Koehler method you can find something on the Web. Try doing a search on Koehler Dog Training.
I have had good results with dog obedience classes that I took through Petsmart, which uses mostly positive re-inforcement. It also gets into clicker training later......if you want to go that route. I got a 3 yr. old B. Collie/Lab mix just this last summer, and she had not had any kind of training before, and has done great with the classes there.
The other thing that has made a WORLD of difference is a collar called a "Halti" or "Gentle Leader". It works kind of like a halter does for a horse, and just guides their head, rather than pulls it or jerks it. If you have a dog that likes to pull you around, it stops it right away.