How best to handle this

I am having a bit of an issue with Raven that I am unsure how best to handle for all involved. First I'd like to quote Sophie (Giselle) from another thread, I didn't post there because otherwise it does not have to do with Cesar/The Dog Whisperer:

Quote:

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There are common arguments that claim something as mundane as a jumping puppy will turn into a dominant adult. So, then, how does one explain a jumping puppy's lip licking, whining, held back ears, etc.? If one has ever seen a band of puppies approach an older dog, the puppies will perform these behaviors while simultaneously *licking the other dog's lips*. As chance would have it, HUMAN lips are taller than the average puppy. Ergo, the puppy must jump to reach. It's not dominance. It's perfectly normal dog behavior.

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This is what Raven does, and only with people she sees regularly as she's more reserved around strangers. When my parents sit down she will run up, tail wagging, ears back, put her face in their face seeking to lick their lips/face. Needless to say, it's intrusive and for them unwelcome. It usually ends up with her being pushed away while saying get down/off. The thing is this seems to just heighten the intensity of her desire to get up in their face and lick.

Now I believe I understand her behavior, why she becomes more desperate when she is being pushed away and such. I have asked that they simply ignore her and turn their body away when she does it, and then immediately turn back and give her attention when she backs off. It seems a simple and fast solution to get the message to her but it's not so easy to get people to do this. I feel a sense of irritation from them and that I should step in and discipline her for the behavior. The thing is I don't believe discipline is the answer for this. She is not being dominating. She is treating them like elder pack members and greeting actually with submission. So what is my best course here if people won't do the ignore 'bad'/praise good method?

My only thought is to step in and redirect her when it happens or is about to happen, but I wonder how much I can actually truly eliminate the behavior from occurring to begin with. Is it possible to do this if the person the behavior is being done with won't participate in the training process?

Only thing which comes to mind for me, is to start the training for how to greet people. Not sure if she is old enough for that just yet.

Some people train the dog to run get a toy and greet folks with that in their mouth. Some train to sit and hold up one paw for a shake. Whatever you choose to do, I guess now is the time.

I understand how frustrating it is, that not all our friends are a doggie nuts as we are. But hey, that is one reason we hang out here on PT!

Best of luck.

Well Raven is 2, but she's very puppyish still ;). She really is fine with 'strangers' so to speak. She's more reserved and not as excitable. It's just with people she knows and has come to associate as part of the extended pack sort of. My parents love the dogs, but I think they are misinterpreting what is going on here. The dogs are welcome at their house and so Raven usually accompanies me to visits, too. She just behaves like an excited puppy when she sees them, "WHERE have you BEEN?! WOW! I love you love you love you!" But ahh you know. It's more exuberance than they want and I agree she's too 'in your face' about it. It would be easy I think if we could work together in how they react to it but it's proving more difficult to address than I would wish.

Just because a pup displays a playful attitude with other older dogs
doesn't mean the behavior is acceptable when greeting humans. The
guest humans should not have to conform to the dogs standards, if you
see what I mean.:) I would make sure my dog responds to a sit command
every time I ask them too, no matter who else is around. IMO

I'm not saying people should conform to her standards. I'm saying cooperation in how I'm trying to stop the behavior would be helpful. The best way to get a message across to the dog is for the person who the behavior is being displayed to react in a certain manner rather than someone from the outside jumping in. It's the fastest and surest way to get the message across on what is proper. I'm not sure how having them turn their backs to her when she does it and give her attention when she doesn't is conforming to the dog's standards :confused:

ETA: My point in quoting was to point out I understand where the behavior comes from (instincts on greeting other members), not to say it's fine and I want to let her do it. My whole point is to say, how best can I get her to understand this is not something to do when the people she is doing it to are reinforcing it in how they react to it. I think "discipline" and "asserting dominance" is only going to sew more confusion in a dog who is already quite submissive. Biggest problem is as soon as she stops, she gets ignored. Thus her good behavior is always going without reinforcement, while the bad behavior is being reinforced because she is most certainly getting "attention" when she's doing it, even if it's not good attention.

Edited again to add some more clarification: This is not an occasional guest situation at my home. This is my dogs and I being either at my parents' house or they here, around each other for several hours at least once a week. If, say, a PTer showed up at my house, Raven would not do this. She doesn't know you. She would wag and be cautious but she doesn't associate you as part of the pack and as if you were coming home after an absence. That is a big reason I'm feeling some frustration. I'm not always around when this occurs. They may be over and I'll run an errand. I may be over and go out somewhere with my mom while the dogs stay there with my stepfather. I truly feel I need some teamwork to work on this issue if it's to be something that gets the message across. All I can do at this point is step in and divert the situation when I see it happening. But my question was is there any real way to teach her the unacceptability of this towards them without their help, to the point where she would not do the behavior if I were in another room, or even out on an errand.

Somehow just posting this and explaining some aspects has made me think much more in depth about it over the past couple hours, and I have some more ideas of some things to try in a broader sense that may help improve the situation.

I don't think your training is asking folks to conform to dog standards. I fail to see how that likeness can be drawn, but that's just my opinion :)

Several suggestions immediately come to mind:
1) Provide an alternative behavior. Sit works. But it's boring and tends to build up frustration. Hand targets work. Retrieving a toy works. Presenting a paw works.
2) Teach self-control. The "turn-around-until-calm" method works relatively well, but I find the "don't-step-into-the-house-until-dog-is-calm" works infinitely better. You also won't be subjecting your guests to pawing and jumping and licking. You'll just need them to be patient for a couple minutes and stand outside until the dog is calm.
3) Premack it <--- my personal favorite. There are healthy desires and unhealthy fixations. If Raven gets so worked up over close family members that she can't inhibit herself, you might consider training her so that the trigger is LESS valuable. It doesn't mean that she'll learn to dislike them; it just means the value of their company will decrease to a point that she can control herself in their presence. Basically, Premack says you can increase the likelihood of a low probability behavior by rewarding it with a high probability behavior. So, take Raven. High probability= Raven will jump and act rambunctious towards your parents. Low probability= She will be calm and stay near you. Essentially, this is how it would go:
- Parents come in the door. Raven jumps on them.
- You call Raven. She doesn't come but she gives you an ear or head tilt. As long as she acknowledges your existence, you click/treat. She comes to you to retrieve the treat.
- Release her to greet your parents again. Maybe she jumps again. That doesn't matter right now.
- You call Raven again. She comes more readily this time.
- Release her to greet your parents.
- Recall. She comes without fail now.
- Release.
If you repeat this enough, Raven chooses to stay by you. She will reach a point where she refuses to go away from you when you release her. And if you're regular about this, the value of your parents will decrease and the value of staying by you/recall will increase. This is often dubbed "come-and-go" training, but it has its basis in Premack's principle.

Good Luck :) It does require minimal parental/familial participation, but they won't actually need to do anything other than stand there.

Thanks Sophie :). Some of that ties in to a few of the ideas I had. What I have in mind is doing a bit of training and work with her when I'm with my parents, both at their place and at mine. This will serve multiple purposes. Among them getting her attention fixed on me, associating their presence with pleasant things, not getting scolded or ignored. Also I think my parents are more likely to want to participate if they see me working with her, and see her in a more positive light when she makes steps forward. They can see her focus and do some work on whatever, be it heel, stay, touch the target, I'll probably mix it up to keep it interesting. Right now my older two seem like "the good dogs" and she is the rambunctious wild one. I can help turn some of that perception around even by focusing her energy into something more positive. I'm actually kind of excited to try some things out now. I think this could just change the overall environment and feel of the situation to one that is more productive.

I am really glad you were able to come up with a few other ideas for
Raven.:) I'm sorry I couldn't talk a little longer about the problem. I was
running a long scan on my pc & also fixing dinner,so I was distracted.:o
Sorry about that.

I do think your parents could help with this, if only to ignore Raven for
a few minutes when they enter the house, till she calms down. (example)
Good luck with the training.:)

Just wanted to give a little update here. Raven did much better yesterday (Sunday) when we went over to my parents'. Although I must say all the people involved (myself included) did better too in regards to handling her energy. First I took her for a jog/walk about an hour before going over (in the cold pouring rain too!). That seemed to take an edge off, and she definitely seemed a bit more settled to begin with. I could not find my treat pouch/clicker (going to have to replace THAT again :rolleyes:), so I just kept her leashed initially when I got there, anchoring myself and her when she was straining/trying to jump and then letting her approach when she settled more.

My parents seemed calmer and more attentive to her when she was behaving which I feel was a huge help in and of itself. She got lots of tidbits and treats when she was being good. She really settled down pretty fast and then was laid back and relaxed the rest of the visit. She really is very eager to please and VERY quick to pick up on positive reinforcement for a behavior. All in all I was very pleased with how it went and the whole visit was more relaxed :)