Everyone has a different opinion on this, and would love to hear yours..
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Everyone has a different opinion on this, and would love to hear yours..
There is no such thing as a wrong behavior. To the dog, there is simply behavior. However, there is rewarded behavior vs. punished behavior vs. neutral behavior. To humans, we classify things as "good" and "bad" or "desired" and "undesired". Humans have this odd concept of "wrong" and "right". ;)
So when a dog performs a "wrong" behavior, or an undesired behavior, it is simply a miscommunication between dog and human.
Dog sees the behavior as is. Human sees it as wrong. Dog doesn't know NOT to perform it unless there is a punishment or alternative behavior w/ stronger reward. So WHY? It all lies in the efficiency and efficacy of the human-dog communication.
I am a little confused. How does a dog learn how to do something right if he does not do it wrong? Is it not OK for a dog to make a mistake, just as a child learns?
Joel, you're misreading me.
I clearly said, dogs see behavior as rewarded and punished (and neutral). Humans see behavior as right and wrong. I was mentioning the distinction between the two.
I said, To properly communicate with the dog what is right and what is wrong, you reward what is "right" and punish what is "wrong".
I said, Dog doesn't know NOT to perform a "wrong" behavior unless there is a punishment or alternative behavior w/ stronger reward. Ergo, dog will perform a "bad" behavior unless there is a punishment or unless there is an alternative behavior with a stronger reward. This is the basis of Premack's Principle.
I never said that it's not OK for a dog to make a mistake or that he can/can't learn what is "right" without doing what is "wrong".
You're assuming I'm 100% positive reinforcement when I never said anything like that. ;)
I get the distinct impression that the OP does not speak English as a first language, just the way he's writing. That could be some of the misunderstandings. JMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Giselle
Hi Giselle,
I am not assuming that you are 100% positive reinforcement at all. And if you were, I would totally respect that, by the way. Even though it is something that I may not do.
I am not misreading you. You said there is no such thing as a wrong behavior. I am respectfully disagreeing. Dogs do understand right and wrong. I teach dogs right and wrong, and they do see it as right and wrong. Maybe I will better understand what you are saying if you can define what you classify as a punishment and what you define as a correction, and do you use either?
And understand, I am just asking you and just wanted to get your feedback on this, so I can explain what your ideas to other people. I just am having a hard time understanding this, so please bear with me.
Sorry, Joel, in my book, dogs don't have a moral understanding of "right" and "wrong". To know "right" and "wrong" is to imply that the animal has a distinct moral code.
Rather, dogs know a) REWARDED behavior and b) PUNISHED behavior. Rewarded v. Punished, not "right" v. "wrong". The dog thinks in positive, negative, rewarded, punished. They don't see "right" and "wrong". WE see "right" and "wrong". WE determine what is "right" and "wrong" behavior.
"Right" and "wrong" are human manifestations. When you say you teach your dog right and wrong behaviors, you're teaching them behaviors that elicit rewards vs. punishments. They see it as "will this behavior elicit reward or punishment?" not, "should I do this because it is 'right'?"
As far as I and the scientific community is concerned, dogs haven't yet proven that they possess that moral guidance. So I believe you and I have different definitions of the words "right" and "wrong" and "good" and "bad".
Dog & children don't know right from wrong & have to be taught. I have both in my life & am now a grandmother. I guess repetition is the key factor here along with patience. Knowing the child or dog you learn what to expect. If you call the child or dog & they run in the other direction you patiently go get them. The dog gets petted & the child gets taken by the hand & led away from wherever they were running too. I use petting the dog & talking nicely to them as a reward & sometimes a biscuit to get them to understand they will be treated with doggy respect.
I would only guess that a dog does a behavior "wrong" because he misunderstood my teaching.
Our beloved (long a resident at The Rainbow Bridge by now) Great Dane mix, Gracie, was just not very smart. She never understood when we tried to teach her even a simple behavior like "catch the treat" - we could be accurate enough to toss the treat so it bounced off her nose, she just never understood she was supposed to open her mouth and catch it. We eventually gave up, as she would just get confused, and decided that we'd all be better off just loving her for the big black goofball she was.
I was actually going to start a thread to ask if anyone had any thought on why Sunny is doing this but I saw this thread so figured I'd post it here:
Sunny has been through basic puppy training and learned "leave it". She will turn her head to something if I say "leave it" while she's on lead. I can also put a treat in front of her and say "leave it" and she won't eat it until I say "ok..take it".
This weekend, we had her at her 2nd class of CGC training. We did some "leave it" on the leash and I did some off leash commands with a treat in front of her. When we got home, I was working with her in the yard and dropped a treat and said "leave it". She jumped up in the air and jumped backwards about 5 feet. She now does this everytime I say "leave it" when she is off leash. I have to admit...it's funny...but not what I want her to do when I say leave it.
Any thoughts?