Yet another biting thread

Not sure why I am posting this. Maybe to see if putting it out there will make me feel better. But, I need help and suggestions with Taz. We have had three incidents where he has either nipped at or bitten children. The first two incidents were similar, we were outside and the child (different child on both times) were running or shuffling their feet by him. On the first occasion he grabbed the child's sock and growled. On the second occasion, the child sort of danced around Taz, then leaned down to pet him and Taz nipped him. He didn't break skin and he has allowed that child to pet him many times in the past with no problems. Alright, that brings us to yesterday. I had company; my neice and nephew came over with their families. So that would be four adults, two eight year old boys, a 2 1/2 year old boy and a 2 1/2 year old girl. I had warned everyone beforehand to be careful about running in my small condo, as it may make Taz go after their feet. Anyway, everything was going very very well, Taz was letting all of the children pet him, and was doing his cat-like rubbing against all of the adults. The older boys were playing ball with Ginger and people started running around, still Taz did not seem particularly stressed. All of the adults were sitting in the livingroom talking, the little ones were with us, and Ginger was playing ball with the older boys which meant back and forth between the livingroom and den. Taz jumped in my lap, I think I may have put my arm around him. Emma (2 year old girl) was sitting on her father's lap to my right, she reached over to pet Taz and he bit her. It was a pretty good bite on the palm/wrist area, there was a fair amount of blood, although once it stopped bleeding it wasn't too bad.

I am sure I reacted wrong after the bite. By that I mean, I think the trainers would say put him down, because he cannot do that on my lap. However, my first thought was, if I put a biting dog down in the midst of all of these kids the parents would be upset. So I held on to him even tighter. Of course I told him "no." But in all of the ensuing activity I doubt that it made an impact. After carrying him around for a while I finally realized that he would have to spend the rest of the visit in his crate, which he did (although he cried a fair amount of the time). However, that wasn't good enough because the little girl was now afraid of all of my dogs, and after about an hour I realized that I had to close Ginger in the bedroom, even though she was being a very good girl and hadn't done anything wrong.

So now I am trying to do damage control, because she is going to be scared to come back to my small condo where she will be stuck inside with two scary dogs. And I am trying to figure out how to make sure Taz will not bite children. Any suggestions?

While I am at it, now that Taz is feeling more comfortable, he is getting a little more obnoxious around some other male dogs in the neighborhood. If everyone is loose and can run around and play (like at the dog park) he is fine. On lead walking around the neighborhood, if a male dog spends what he (Taz) considers to be too much time looking at him, he will go after the dog. I MUST have a dog that can go for three walks each and every day without biting any people or dogs in the neighborhood.

I think I am just going through a bad period right now, and this problem is just as important to me as some of the other things going on. Oh well, we have a play date in 30 minutes, wish us luck.

I'm very sorry to hear about the biting incident:( I totally understand how your feeling so very stressed out (going through a little of that myself at the moment) and I wish there was something I could say to make you feel better.
I'm sure there will be some wonderful advice for you and I hope it helps with Taz.

Lots of luck. I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that things go smoother for you.

Okay, let's deal with humans first:

1) Is Taz is close to you whenever he bites the children? Or is he far away from your supervision?
2) When Taz bites, does he show fearful behavior (i.e. does he cower, does he hold his weight on his back legs, does his head shrink back, do the whites of his eyes show, does he avert his gaze)? Or does he tense up and posture (i.e. are his front legs holding the weight, are his muscles very tense and ready to "strike", is his chest out, are his eyes "hard" and staring)?
3) Normally, do you enforce NILIF or anything like NILIF? Or are things more lax and Taz generally gets what Taz wants? For example, when he wants attention, can he just climb into your lap or do you make him perform a behavior prior to it?

Usually, when small dogs bite around rambunctious children, it is a combination of fear and overarousal. Children are just awful at self-control :p So their energy, lack of control, and lack of better judgment make them easy targets for fearful small dogs. The best thing to do in fear-based cases is to teach child to respect the dog's space and to teach the dog that the child is a positive thing.

However, it sounds like Taz might have some guarding or possibly leadership issues if he bit in your lap and not before he was in your lap. If it were just this isolated incidence, I wouldn't say he's guarding, but you also note that he has issues with other dogs. It sounds like the dog-dog issues are based more on impulse control issues. It's very very common for dogs to be dog-friendly off-leash and not so on-leash. If the dog is *truly* dog friendly, then the Jekyll and Hyde behavior is usually deemed "leash reactivity": http://www.4pawsu.com/onleashaggression.htm

In all cases, there is hope. You just have to remember that, keep calm, manage situations well, and teach Taz appropriate behaviors. It can be done :)

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Originally Posted by Giselle

1) Is Taz is close to you whenever he bites the children? Or is he far away from your supervision?

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Actually each of the three times he has been closer to me than the last. The first time he was off lead at the dog park, the second time he was only 5-feet from me on lead. I do honestly think that both of those times it was a reaction to over-stimulation. I am not sure if that was what it was last night or not. :confused:

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2) When Taz bites, does he show fearful behavior (i.e. does he cower, does he hold his weight on his back legs, does his head shrink back, do the whites of his eyes show, does he avert his gaze)? Or does he tense up and posture (i.e. are his front legs holding the weight, are his muscles very tense and ready to "strike", is his chest out, are his eyes "hard" and staring)?

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Although it happens very fast, I am going to say it is the second scenario, rather than the first. More a tense and ready to strike than a shrinking from fear.

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3) Normally, do you enforce NILIF or anything like NILIF? Or are things more lax and Taz generally gets what Taz wants? For example, when he wants attention, can he just climb into your lap or do you make him perform a behavior prior to it?

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Okay, here is where I insert many red faced icons, :o. I knew when I bought Taz home that I was going to have to let him know I am boss, and I intended to do NILIF, was I/am I consistent? No. And I do understand that if I am not consistent he isn't going to understand what I am asking. :o As a matter of fact the longer he has been here the less strict I am about it. I was slightly better the first few weeks.

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It sounds like the dog-dog issues are based more on impulse control issues. It's very very common for dogs to be dog-friendly off-leash and not so on-leash. If the dog is *truly* dog friendly, then the Jekyll and Hyde behavior is usually deemed "leash reactivity": http://www.4pawsu.com/onleashaggression.htm

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I will check out the leash aggression link that you posted, but he is friendly to dogs that check him out and move on (both on and off leash). It is those that spend too much time just standing near him (facing him) that freaks him out. If they want to play, fine. But if I am talking to the other dogs owner, and the other dog doesn't go find a spot to sniff or something, but instead just stands there Taz he will react. When dogs are at the dog park they are unlikely to just stand next to another dog. We have been to two different dog parks on several occasions with no problems at all.

Thanks for your help and comments Anna and Sophie.

Oh, he sounds exactly like Ivy. Apparently, this behavior isn't all too uncommon, but it doesn't fall under a singular umbrella term like "aggression" or anything. It's pretty subjective and open to interpretation, but from what I gather and understand is this:
- These dogs are easily aroused/overexcited. They don't have coping skills to deal with the influx of emotion and adrenaline and so take their frustration out through lunging/biting. They are often dog-friendly off leash and rarely, if ever, get in fights off leash. These dogs generally have very very low thresholds.

Because their thresholds are so low and because they don't know how to deal with themselves, we have to teach them. It sounds strict, but you have to lay down the rules from here on out:
1) Enforce NILIF now to bring a solid structure and foundation into the household. Teach "Wait" and teach Taz to reorient back to you after waiting. For example, before you exit the door, have Taz wait. Release him from "wait" with a verbal "okay!", and stand there. Wait until he voluntarily looks back at you. ONLY then will you move forward. Practice this at the door, at the car, at the garden gate, at a store, etc.
2) Teach coping skills: For him, meeting a dog for longer than a few seconds is too much. He just can't emotionally cope with that so he lunges. Instead, turn meetings into positive training sessions. Taz meets dog. Click. Taz returns to you for the treat. Let Taz meet dog again. Click. Taz returns for the treat. Let Taz meet dog again. Click/treat. Repeat. Repeat until Taz views the other dog as a signal to begin this game of meeting and click/treating. Thus, in one game, you teach him to voluntarily meet the other dog and then reorient back to you. The stress of a prolonged greeting melts away!
3) Manage situations better: The owner's body language is CRUCIAL with dogs like Taz. They are often highly sensitive to the environment and to their owners. If you feel Taz getting tense and you make a slight movement, that slight tug on the leash or that slight movement of your hand can set Taz off. Rather, what you want to do is pay more attention to how you control yourself. You do want to be a strong, confident leader. You should be able to diffuse tense situations, not urge them on. So when you see Taz getting into the "red zone" and you see him tensing up, remove yourself and recall him. If you ever find him in your lap and he's getting tense, pick him up and place him in a low-stress environment (i.e. crate). You want to make sure that Taz NEVER gets above this threshold ever again. If he ever lunges from here on out, it is up to you to figure out what his body was saying to you, what you misread, and how you can prevent it. His body is speaking constantly. We just have to learn how to read them better and how to respond more effectively :)

Hope that helps! If you need visuals of anything I wrote (like the 'wait and reorient') just let me know!

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2) Teach coping skills: For him, meeting a dog for longer than a few seconds is too much. He just can't emotionally cope with that so he lunges. Instead, turn meetings into positive training sessions. Taz meets dog. Click. Taz returns to you for the treat. Let Taz meet dog again. Click. Taz returns for the treat. Let Taz meet dog again. Click/treat. Repeat. Repeat until Taz views the other dog as a signal to begin this game of meeting and click/treating. Thus, in one game, you teach him to voluntarily meet the other dog and then reorient back to you. The stress of a prolonged greeting melts away!

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I actually love this idea. I can see some problems (i.e. my portly Eskie will attmept to knock Taz down and grab whatever I have out of my hand before he even realizes I clicked, lol), but I must admit the theory behind it appeals to me. Will see if I can do some tweaking on this one.

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Manage situations better: The owner's body language is CRUCIAL with dogs like Taz. They are often highly sensitive to the environment and to their owners. If you feel Taz getting tense and you make a slight movement, that slight tug on the leash or that slight movement of your hand can set Taz off.

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Had to smile at this one. Nancy told me the same thing when I asked her about Ginger's fear of walking around the neighborhood (which by the way has improved greatly). However, in both cases I am not aware of doing anything until after the dogs do; in Taz' case growling and lunging, in Ginger's case sitting down and refusing to move. In both instances I feel I am acting normal not really thinking about what we are doing and find myself reacting to their unexpected behaviors. ON the contrary, when two or more children approach us, I know that I do tense up on Taz' lead, however, as long as there is no rapid movement of feet he is very good about all of them petting him. He makes me feel so proud of him then. :)

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So when you see Taz getting into the "red zone" and you see him tensing up, remove yourself and recall him. If you ever find him in your lap and he's getting tense, pick him up and place him in a low-stress environment (i.e. crate). You want to make sure that Taz NEVER gets above this threshold ever again. If he ever lunges from here on out, it is up to you to figure out what his body was saying to you, what you misread, and how you can prevent it. His body is speaking constantly. We just have to learn how to read them better and how to respond more effectively

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I really like the parts I have put in bold, and I am sure that is the key to the whole thing. I can, course make excuses about how I cannot give him all of my attention because I have another dog and neighbors are trying to talk to me, etc. but I don't think you would buy it. ;) I do have a question along those lines, though. How consistant do I need to be? By that I mean, I may be able to take Taz out once a day by himself so that we can work on these things individually. But our other walks will be with Ginger. Would the fact that I am paying closer attention at some times and not others confuse him?

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How consistant do I need to be? By that I mean, I may be able to take Taz out once a day by himself so that we can work on these things individually. But our other walks will be with Ginger. Would the fact that I am paying closer attention at some times and not others confuse him?

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Not at all. When I mean pay closer attention, I really mean for you to change the way you look at your dogs. You know how some people say losing weight isn't just a diet; it's a lifestyle change? Fixing Taz's behavior isn't just a quick training session; it's a mentality change. :) Rather than "Oh no! He lunged. What do I do now?", you will instead think "Hmm...his eyes are getting hard, his muscles are getting tense, and his tail is wagging stiffly. What can I do to reframe or diffuse this situation?"

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In both instances I feel I am acting normal not really thinking about what we are doing and find myself reacting to their unexpected behaviors.

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From this point on, you are not the reaction. I remember that phrase from Les Choristes, "action-reaction". This is NOT the route you want to take. Rather than waiting for Taz to lunge, you will assess him as soon as you see his triggers (which sounds like young children and strange dogs staring at him). As soon as you see these triggers, you will notice Taz beginning to feel uncomfortable or tense, and you end it there. You can end it by click/treating him and playing the meeting game. You can end it by removing him entirely from the situation. You can tell the kids or dogs to back up. You can recall him to you and leave, etc.

So, yes, initially, you will need one-on-one training sessions with Taz so that you can get a feel for what sets him off, at what point do things set him off, and how you can reframe the situation. When you're walking both dogs, you need not pay so close attention to his every move, but you *do* need to quickly and thoroughly assess him as soon as you see a small child or strange dog approach you.

If you need more ideas of coping skills, just let me know! I love this topic with a passion, and have many tricks up my sleeve :D