Bear's first time off leash!! ... She wont drop things when told

Karen & I took Bear & Mr. Biggles for a walk to get them to pee & poo before bed.

Karen showed me this nice field thats kinda fenced in on one side & has a river on the other side. I know Bear will NOT go far from Mr. Biggles so we let Bear loose. She needs a much excercise as she can get to prop those dangerous pounds.

OMG she was soo cute, Karen & I oooo'ed & Awwww'ed!! She was Running about (a slow run as shes super fat & isn't use to being out of the house), prancing & skipping & just having the time of her life 20 feet infront of us.

When I called her she came bounding right away. I was shocked she listed so well & was so willing to go back onto the leash!!

I'm so proud of her!! She got a HUGE hug a kiss, & a good hard pat on her jiggly chest :D

I wasn't too scared or worried about letting her off leash... even if she tried to run away or chase something, she isn't able to go very fast or for very long. I can easly outrun her. + the field was fairly long & I could see ahead of us.

I'm still in awe, as we haven't even had her a week & shes just soooooooo obident!

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However this morning she thought she would chomp on one of my socks :mad: She is NOT good at dropping & will get testy (only a low Grrrrr, with no teeth showing)... This morning I had had enough of her & Grabbed the top of her muzzle & asked her to drop it... she refused.. So I gently started squeezing her lips onto her upper teeth, while telling her to drop it... She still refused... so I did it harder & harder, until it was just starting to hurt (got a tiny wimper out of her) & told her to drop it. She then started to spit the sock out WOOHOO... She got a good girl pat & a kiss. Then I gave her a pigs ear to chomp on.

Is there a better way to get her to drop things? Her jaws are FAR too powerful to pry open, so thats out of the question.

I don't really want to hurt Bear, but she will not drop anything for the life of her. This was the first time I was able to get something out of her mouth.

I'm not scared of her bitting me, as I honestly don't think she has it in her... Except to people knocking at our door. She doesn't like that at all.

Any tips would be great...
If this method is best, I'll keep doing it. I used it on my old dog when he was a naughty puppy & he did great on it. But shes still a new member of the family, so I don't want to be too agressive with her.. but I still want to show her whos boss.

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However this morning she thought she would chomp on one of my socks :mad:

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You got that angry over a sock? Angry enough for the mad face? :confused: My dogs always steal socks and I never get mad. ;)

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Grabbed the top of her muzzle & asked her to drop it... she refused.. So I gently started squeezing her lips onto her upper teeth, while telling her to drop it... She still refused... so I did it harder & harder, until it was just starting to hurt (got a tiny wimper out of her) & told her to drop it.

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I would never hurt one of my dogs to teach them something!
Have you tried teaching her to 'give' or 'drop it' with a different item? And then praising her and/or giving her a treat? Maybe by teaching her with another item the sock will be easier to get from her. Good luck.

To open a large dogs mouth- you did what you should. There is a spot on the gum above the canine- the skin is soft and if you apply pressure- they will open their mouths. Its like a muzzle pressure point- even used by vets to open the jaw of a dog under anethesia..
Take your hand on top the of the muzzle = with thumb on one canine lip area, pinky finger on the other side- gently press and say drop. The dog will let go- and as soon as the dog does- praise. Even offer another toy instead. ( pig ears withstanding but something else would work as well).
This is also the same part of the muzzle a dominant dog would mouth a subdominant dog. Do not apply much pressure- be sensitive when it opens. Attaching a brief video using hottie as a model to show you what I mean. View My Video

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Originally Posted by chocolatepuppy

You got that angry over a sock? Angry enough for the mad face? :confused: My dogs always steal socks and I never get mad. ;)

I would never hurt one of my dogs to teach them something!
Have you tried teaching her to 'give' or 'drop it' with a different item? And then praising her and/or giving her a treat? Maybe by teaching her with another item the sock will be easier to get from her. Good luck.

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Clothing are not dog toys.

I've tried offering other toys & food... Once she has something, she will NOT drop it & will then shred it... Mr. Goose & a nother sock have already died.

Karen & I tried for 30 mins to get her to drop an expensice cloth, by offering things to her... Tried being stern, tried the gentle tap on the nose, nothing worked... We tried telling her other commands & she did those just fine, but still would NOT drop my cloth.

I didn't just go out & use the jaw grab on her... I didn't know what else to do & couldn't afford to loose more things to her. I also didn't do it fast.. It took me 10 mins of ever so gently squeezing her upper jaw harder & harder... it was up to her how hard I would have to squeeze until she listened.

This is pretty much our only BIG problem with her that needs to be corrected in a timely mannor.... She is VERY smart, I just don't think she was taught this command before, so she has no idea what we want her to do.

Once I got the sock from her I held it to her face & said Said Bear No, when she slowly tried to take it from me... she didn't touch it when I told her no.. .shes good for that... just not the drop...

We don't want someone to come into the house & think they can play with her toys & have her grawl at them.. thats 100% unacceptable, esp with the stupid BSL laws... I don't want Rottweilers added to that retarded list.

Dogs will surely test you and keeping hold of stuff is just one way in which she will test you. If you fail the tests, she will view you as being inferior as alpha and will take your place so you have to win every single time. In the wild, it is not in a wolfs best interest to be led by an alpha who isn't cut out for it so it's natural that they continually test them and take their place if they aren't good enough. You have to be firm. I have wrenched open a staffy x pitbulls teeth using my fingers in order to get it off our Mist before so you'll just have to do the same thing with your dog if she's not biting in response because it can be done and never ever allow her to win the test. If she continually loses, she'll stop being so persistent. The more you reinforce her belief that she is winning, the more testy she'll become and may even start to become a problem in other areas.

Don't be mistaken into thinking you have to be a bit soft on her just because she is new to the home. Dogs do not live in the past, they live in the present and you have to start as you mean to go on with them. It is known that a dog can be fully accustomed to it's new surroundings within 2 days and they usually are but humans are mistaken into thinking they need several weeks or even months to adjust. When they do finally start putting their foot down, the dog has long since decided it was higher in rank than them because they have been telling it so for the last several weeks or months and then they encounter serious problems because such a dog won't give up that position without at least some resistence.
When my dads border collie had pups and the two he kept were introduced to our Jess and Mist, Mist went straight into teaching them who was boss, pinning them down and snarling at them and even making them whimper and yelp. Jess just wandered off for a sniff around the garden and ignored them but would growl if they went up to her. It's funny how the pups couldn't get enough of our Mist though and perstered her despite her treatment towards them which looks cruel and harsh to us but it was important to allow her to do it. After a short time, the behaviour ceased and she settled down...pups knowing where they stood in the pecking order. So, if you look at how dogs behave with each other, you don't see them being soft for a few weeks first, they are firm right from the start, even firmer than most humans could bring themselves to be. Dogs only understand their own language. You have to speak dog.

Try to keep small personal belongings like socks out of her reach to start with to cut down on these situations. Take all of her toys away from her and choose one and only let her play with it on your terms. Afterwards, you take that toy away and she has to live with it. She'll soon learn that if she comes into possession of anything and you approach, she has to submit that item to you. Thats what subordinates do naturally.

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Originally Posted by borzoimom

To open a large dogs mouth- you did what you should. There is a spot on the gum above the canine- the skin is soft and if you apply pressure- they will open their mouths. Its like a muzzle pressure point- even used by vets to open the jaw of a dog under anethesia..
Take your hand on top the of the muzzle = with thumb on one canine lip area, pinky finger on the other side- gently press and say drop. The dog will let go- and as soon as the dog does- praise. Even offer another toy instead. ( pig ears withstanding but something else would work as well).
This is also the same part of the muzzle a dominant dog would mouth a subdominant dog. Do not apply much pressure- be sensitive when it opens. Attaching a brief video using hottie as a model to show you what I mean. View My Video

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Thank you so much!

I was pretty close at do it like that.. I was a bit closer to Bears face, so I guess thats why I had to add a little more pressure... but now I know the sweet spot & will show the guys & start using it on her tonight with a pigs ear & other random things.

This is wonderful news :D
I know she'll pick it up fast, as shes sooo darn smart & loves to please for kisses, pats & hugs.

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Originally Posted by Canis-Lupess

Dogs will surely test you and keeping hold of stuff is just one way in which she will test you. If you fail the tests, she will view you as being inferior as alpha and will take your place so you have to win every single time. In the wild, it is not in a wolfs best interest to be led by an alpha who isn't cut out for it so it's natural that they continually test them and take their place if they aren't good enough. You have to be firm. I have wrenched open a staffy x pitbulls teeth using my fingers in order to get it off our Mist before so you'll just have to do the same thing with your dog if she's not biting in response because it can be done and never ever allow her to win the test. If she continually loses, she'll stop being so persistent. The more you reinforce her belief that she is winning, the more testy she'll become and may even start to become a problem in other areas.

Don't be mistaken into thinking you have to be a bit soft on her just because she is new to the home. Dogs do not live in the past, they live in the present and you have to start as you mean to go on with them. It is known that a dog can be fully accustomed to it's new surroundings within 2 days and they usually are but humans are mistaken into thinking they need several weeks or even months to adjust. When they do finally start putting their foot down, the dog has long since decided it was higher in rank than them because they have been telling it so for the last several weeks or months and then they encounter serious problems because such a dog won't give up that position without at least some resistence.
When my dads border collie had pups and the two he kept were introduced to our Jess and Mist, Mist went straight into teaching them who was boss, pinning them down and snarling at them and even making them whimper and yelp. Jess just wandered off for a sniff around the garden and ignored them but would growl if they went up to her. It's funny how the pups couldn't get enough of our Mist though and perstered her despite her treatment towards them which looks cruel and harsh to us but it was important to allow her to do it. After a short time, the behaviour ceased and she settled down...pups knowing where they stood in the pecking order. So, if you look at how dogs behave with each other, you don't see them being soft for a few weeks first, they are firm right from the start, even firmer than most humans could bring themselves to be. Dogs only understand their own language. You have to speak dog.

Try to keep small personal belongings like socks out of her reach to start with to cut down on these situations. Take all of her toys away from her and choose one and only let her play with it on your terms. Afterwards, you take that toy away and she has to live with it. She'll soon learn that if she comes into possession of anything and you approach, she has to submit that item to you. Thats what subordinates do naturally.

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I'll start working on that with her... I was just being gentle as she was from a shelter & has shown me a couple times that shes senistive & can get quite scared. I just didn't want to scare her or fear for her life from me.

Mr. Biggles was the boss of the house from his past owners. I've been VERY dominate with him, as his actions are not only annoying as heck, but he has snapped & tried to stand his ground with me a few times... I have a large crate coming for Mr. Biggles this weekend, as he needs to be crate trained.

I've already tried to make him a lower rank. He HAS to walk behind bear & isn't allowed to get his food bowl first, or get the first treat, or the first pat, or if I'm taking the dogs out one at a time he's the last to go outside.

Hes not really improving, as I'll spend an hour removing him from OUR couch & placing him onto the dog couch (yes they have their own.. spoiled pups lol), just to have him rush back to OUR couch...

When I get the crate, he'll be banned from the couches 100%.. he'll strictly be a floor dog. Until he learns that he is not the boss, I am.

I was trying to treat both dogs as equals, but Mr. Biggles is gonna have to be at the bottom of the rank until he can take orders.

I hope this crate training will help with his peeing & pooping, when we leave the house or goto bed.

If anyone else has more tips or feels I can do things better, let me know :)
I want the happiest doggies :D

One more thing- the second the dog gives in, you release this as you saw in the video.. ( Borzois are drama queens- if this hurt him- you would have known it reallll quick!- its just a pressure point but better than getting into a tug of war..)

Just another tip... don't overpraise! These are life essentials and things that will need to be followed the rest of Bear's life.

Exactly- as you noticed I only said good boy.. I did not say drop it because if I had, he would have opened his mouth and you would not have seen how to do it.. The words " drop it" should be said as well..

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Originally Posted by borzoimom

Exactly- as you noticed I only said good boy.. I did not say drop it because if I had, he would have opened his mouth and you would not have seen how to do it.. The words " drop it" should be said as well..

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I don't have sound on my work PC saddly.. but now I know :D

Thank you guys so much for the tips :D

I want to see TWO videos. The first is . . . a human repeatedly carrying a dog off the human's seat to the doggie sofa, only to have the dog rush back and beat the human to the first seat. Over and over. Like you said you did. :D

Next, I want to see the crate when it arrives. Because I have a feeling that, if given his choice, Mr. Biggles will have YOU in it! :D :D

Seriously, it does sound as though you are on the right track with both of them. And that is GREAT!!!

Only thing I am NOT sure of, is can you as alpha dictate which of them is higher in rank? I know you can insist Bear be first, in eating, praise, going out, coming in' but that is not rank. I always thought the human is the alpha and then the pack works out the rest between them. Maybe someone has some info on this, as I saw you wrote you want Mr. Biggles to learn he is at the bottom of the rank. Just not sure that is your decision, it may be between the 2 of them.

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Originally Posted by Freedom

I want to see TWO videos. The first is . . . a human repeatedly carrying a dog off the human's seat to the doggie sofa, only to have the dog rush back and beat the human to the first seat. Over and over. Like you said you did. :D

Next, I want to see the crate when it arrives. Because I have a feeling that, if given his choice, Mr. Biggles will have YOU in it! :D :D

Seriously, it does sound as though you are on the right track with both of them. And that is GREAT!!!

Only thing I am NOT sure of, is can you as alpha dictate which of them is higher in rank? I know you can insist Bear be first, in eating, praise, going out, coming in' but that is not rank. I always thought the human is the alpha and then the pack works out the rest between them. Maybe someone has some info on this, as I saw you wrote you want Mr. Biggles to learn he is at the bottom of the rank. Just not sure that is your decision, it may be between the 2 of them.

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The couch part is almost right.. I wasn't sitting on it.. He would only rush over to our couch when I left the room. Andrew is a push over so the dogs walk all over him. Mr. Biggles KNOWS when I'm in the room, he cannot sit on the couch... so when I'm in the laundryroom he thinks I'm stupid or something :rolleyes:

I want Mr. Biggles to back off of Bear. She doesn't have a mind of her own, shes too dependent of him & he uses that to his advantage & also gets her riled up when out on a walk & they see another dog. He also nips her & pesters her pretty baddly. He'll try to bully her away from her food & water dish. He also thinks he boss with us.

So my goal is to make him a lower rank in the house, so I can gain control over him & so Bear can be a little more independent... She depends on him WAY too much, to the point that she'll only mess inthe house when he does, snarl when he does, eat when he does, & so on. Bear is so use to being walked all over shes not really dog like at times, but more robot like. Its really hard to explain. But Mr. Biggle is a HUGE part of that issue.

Humans are to be alpha, not Mr. Biggles.. Weather he likes it or not, hes stuck with us & will obey over time. Its just gonna take a lot of work.

Mr. Biggles is getting more & more bold & Chad has almost had it with him. Mr. Biggles doesn't care what you do, how many times you move him or scold him (verbal NOs & forcably moving him from one couch to the other), hes gonna do what HE wants to do... Hes gotten Snippy with Chad & thats one thing Chad has a HUGE issue with. Bear will grawl, but wont snap, so we get warning & can correct her ASAP(she has improved big time).. Mr. Biggles just SNAPS & he nearly bit Chad.

I need to correct his attitude before Chad looses it & wants him gone. Chad is around people all the time & doesn't want Mr. Biggles to bite someone if they try to shoo him off the couch or something. I'd rather not have to put him down from a bite, or return him to the shelter.

We love Mr. Biggles, so we'll work hard to make him a more family member suited in our home.. He just needs to learn is all... Once he's knocked down a few knotches in rank, everyone will get a long much better :D


its home time, & I can take photos of the pups as the house is almost finished being set up, WOOT!!

I'll try to make little videos of them singing.. yes they can sing (howl), its the funniest thing ever... Dale descovered it hehehe