Say No To Silver Labs

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

HI EVERYONE,

I'D LIKE YOU TO KNOW THAT SILVER LAB "BREEDERS" (THEY DON'T EVEN DESERVE TO BE CALLED BREEDERS) ARE UNETHICAL PEOPLE WHO MAKE A LIVING OUT OF LIES. THEY'RE DESTROYING A BEAUTIFUL BREED BY MAKING INLINE BREEDINGS, CAUSING SOME DISEASES TO APPEAR MORE FREQUENTLY.
IF YOU LOVE LABS, TAKE A FEW MINUTES AND HIT THIS LINK...

http://www.geocities.com/silverlabs1/

PAY SPECIALL ATENTION TO THIS ONE

http://www.geocities.com/silverlabs1/pedigrees.html.

PLEASE, HELP US KEEP SAFE THE TYPE AND SOUNDNESS OF THE WORLD'S MOST BEAUTIFUL BREED.

THANK YOU

compare the two breeds...

this is what happens with two well reproduced breeds. you can tell the difference


http://www.dickendall.com/clark7.jpg
http://www.bromhund.com/studs/images/framescamp.jpg

but when you have two badly reproduced breeds...it's hard to say


http://www.hundeauslaufgebiet.de/nino/images/nino_019.jpg
http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t043/T043345A.jpg

now, let alone when they're puppies


http://www.fastdirectory.net/weims/Rider%20Lord%20looking%20at%20you.jpghttp://www.bbc.co.uk/holiday/images/traveltools/puppy_300x193.jpg

this two breeds combined:


http://www.downstay.com/gal_dir/puppy/03-21-05/007.jpghttp://www.silverbulletlabs.com/gracie.JPG

the so-called Silverlab!!!!!

[CathyBogart]

Very interesting site, I had never heard of a silver lab before. It reminds me of the stupid "doodle dog" trend, in that they appear to be mixing brees to create something "better", and are only creating more mutts.

(Not that there's anything wring with mutts - but goodness knows we have enough homeless ones already...why make more?)

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

The Thing About The Labradoodles And Other "doodles" Is That The People Who Breed This Freaky Dogs Don't Even Now What A Breed Is Purposed To Do.
They Don't Have An Ethical Goal To Achieve But Making Money From Stupid People.
Very Often This People Know Little About Breeds, Genetics And Ethics.
I Think Mixed Dog's Are Great, But You Shouldn't Have To Pay A 100 Dlls Or More For A Lie.

[Crazy-Cat-Lover]

Thanks for the information. So is this "silver" lab created by crossing a Weimaraner and a Labrador? They dont even look like labs in my opinion. They look like Weimaraner crosses... :confused: Whats next? Brindle Labradors? :rolleyes:

[cloverfdx]

I have already said no ;).

[lv4dogs]

Thanks for the information.
I ALWAYS say NO to any breed that has ANY part of his body/parentage/anything that idoes not meet the breed standard of that breed and not in any color that is not reccognized as a showable color.

There are way too many designer breeds, byb's, puppy mills, dogs in shelters etc...
EVERYONE needs to start focusing on what breeds we have as registered breeds (no fancy designer breed registries or the like either) and focus on improving them.

[IRescue452]

Think before you speak people. A lot of breeds come in perfectly sound colour combinations that simply aren't often liked by show breeders. Take for instance the cocker spaniel. There is no link between health problems and white pigmentation but the show breeders don't like them to have more the 85% white. A cocker can be a representative of the standard and have 87% white, but it won't be shown. Likewise, a labrador can come in dilute chocolate "silver" and still fit the standard, but breeders just don't like the colour. Currently its rebellious breeders who either breed for money or don't care about showing labradors that are breeding silvers. There is something wrong with the for-profit breeders, but there is Nothing wrong with the labrador that comes in this colour. Here's further reading...

The AKC Stand on Registration of Silver Labradors:

Response of Jack Norton of the AKC on 1/24/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs.

The registry of the American Kennel Club is based on parentage and not the coat color of a member of any breed.

In 1987 the AKC, in corporation with the Labrador Retriever Club of America, conducted an inquiry into the breeding of litters that contained members that were registered as silver. An AKC representative was sent to observe these dogs. The report and color photographs of these dogs were reviewed by AKC staff and representatives of the Labrador Retriever Club of America. Both Parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however they felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard at the time described chocolate as ranging in shade form sedge to chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate rather than silver. This remains the current policy of the American Kennel Club.

Jack Norton
Special Services Dept

* One last note, at one point in time, the yellow labrador was in the same position as silver. They had to push to get the yellow lab accepted.

[IRescue452]

Torner are you a breeder? I'd like to see some of your dogs if you are. I don't like to be a judge of any breeder if I can't see what they have to offer.

[Karen]

Hi, welcome to Pet Talk. Most people around here are against any breeding of dogs just for the sake of breeding , or for "pretty" without concern for health, and are more concerned with rescuing the millions of dogs, mixed and purebreds, that end up in shelters every day.

I will point out, in the case of Labradoodles, these dogs were originally bred for a purpose - to get the non-shedding coats of the poodle with the more suitable personality, and heavier, more stable build of the Lab for guide-dog work for people with dog allergies.

But no dogs should be bred for just "hey, look, I made a new trend!"

There are thousands of perfectly good, deserving-of-homes dogs that get put to sleep every year because of a lack of homes for them, and because of irresponsible people.

[lv4dogs]

Irescue, I understand where you are coming from & I would agree with you totally if this world wasn't so overpopulated with homeless animals.
Seeing as there a lot of homeless animals I personally don't agree with breeding for ANYTHING that is not of breed standard.

Sure you get the occasional one even when you do breed responsibly & correctly, I have no problem with that, but breedeing just for that color or the like, I don't agree with that.

[Suki Wingy]

Irescue, I understand where you are coming from & I would agree with you totally if this world wasn't so overpopulated with homeless animals.
Seeing as there a lot of homeless animals I personally don't agree with breeding for ANYTHING that is not of breed standard.

EXACTLY!! Same thing if a dal breeder gets a lemon dog in their liver breeding they alter it and sell it as a pet. In my mind that is the only way to deal with the not accepted colors

[IRescue452]

But why can't you show the lemon dog? If you ask me its stupid to only accept a few colours. I understand not accepting pigments that are linked to health problems, but there's no link between lemon and blindness or deafness.

[Suki Wingy]

I honestly think it is based strictly on tradition. Conformation is a sport rooted deep in traditions, it is very hard to get them to change. It is better to sell it as a pet/performance/Juniors dog.

[lv4dogs]

But why can't you show the lemon dog? If you ask me its stupid to only accept a few colours. I understand not accepting pigments that are linked to health problems, but there's no link between lemon and blindness or deafness.

Oh I know what you mean. If theres a color with no known heath defects you should be able to show them.
Most of those colors are recognized colors of the breed, just not recognized by the kennel clubs.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Think before you speak people. A lot of breeds come in perfectly sound colour combinations that simply aren't often liked by show breeders. Take for instance the cocker spaniel. There is no link between health problems and white pigmentation but the show breeders don't like them to have more the 85% white. A cocker can be a representative of the standard and have 87% white, but it won't be shown. Likewise, a labrador can come in dilute chocolate "silver" and still fit the standard, but breeders just don't like the colour. Currently its rebellious breeders who either breed for money or don't care about showing labradors that are breeding silvers. There is something wrong with the for-profit breeders, but there is Nothing wrong with the labrador that comes in this colour. Here's further reading...

The AKC Stand on Registration of Silver Labradors:

Response of Jack Norton of the AKC on 1/24/00 giving AKC official position on the issue of Silver Labs.

The registry of the American Kennel Club is based on parentage and not the coat color of a member of any breed.

In 1987 the AKC, in corporation with the Labrador Retriever Club of America, conducted an inquiry into the breeding of litters that contained members that were registered as silver. An AKC representative was sent to observe these dogs. The report and color photographs of these dogs were reviewed by AKC staff and representatives of the Labrador Retriever Club of America. Both Parties were satisfied that there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers, however they felt that the dogs were incorrectly registered as silver. Since the breed standard at the time described chocolate as ranging in shade form sedge to chocolate, it was felt that the dogs could more accurately be described as chocolate rather than silver. This remains the current policy of the American Kennel Club.

Jack Norton
Special Services Dept

* One last note, at one point in time, the yellow labrador was in the same position as silver. They had to push to get the yellow lab accepted.

WHEN I REFERED TO HEALTH ISSUES, I WAS TALKING ABOUT HYP AND ELBOW DISPLASIA AND OCULAR PROBLEMS. WHEN WE MAKE INLINE BREEDINGS, (BROTHER TO SISTER, FATHER TO DAUGHTER) WE REINFORCE SOME HEALTH ISSUES THAT, IF THEY WERE NOT PRESENT IN THAT GENERATION, WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO APPEAR IN THE NEXT ONE.

ABOUT COLOR....NO ONE HAS EVER DOCUMENTED HAVING A SILVER LAB FROM PUREBRED LABRADORS. THERE HAS BEEN SOME RECORDS ON BLACK AND TANS, AND A FEW "CHOCO CHIPS" LABS (YELLOW BRED TO CHOCOLATE PRODUCES A WEIRD PIGMENTATION).
SOME PEOPLE CLAIM THAT YELLOW "SUDDENLY" APPEARED BETWEEN BLACKS, AND THEN CHOCOLATES CAME UP BETWEEN YELLOWS. THAT'S KINDA FUNNY, CONSIDERING THAT CHOCOLATES WERE DOCUMENTED TEN YEARS BEFORE THE YELLOWS.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE TESTS THAT THE AKC PEOPLE MADE TO THE PARENTS OF THE SO CALLED SILVER LABS, WE'RE NOT VERY RELIABLE SINCE THERE WE'RE NOT ANY DNA TESTINGS. EVEN NOW, DNA TESTING IS TOO SPECIFIC TO LET US KNOW IF THE PUPPY COMES FROM OTHER BREEDS MIXINGS. (LAB-WEIMARANER)

PLEASE....READ THE WHOLE PAGE, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, LET YOUR EYES AND KNOWLEDGE BE THE JUDGES TO THIS SILVERLABS. SOME OF THEM WILL LOOK LIKE A LAB, BUT THAT'S BECAUSE IT DOES COME FROM A LAB BRED TO A WEIMARANER. MOST OF THEM LOOK MORE LIKE WEIMARANERS.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Torner are you a breeder? I'd like to see some of your dogs if you are. I don't like to be a judge of any breeder if I can't see what they have to offer.


I DON'T SEE WHY NOT. BUT ALSO, I DON'T SEE WHY YOU SHOULD HAVE TO "JUDGE" ME AS A BREEDER...IT'S FINE I GUESS, IF THAT'LL MAKE YOU MORE INTERESTED ON THE BREED.

[.sarah]

Ugh, Silver Labs is one of my pet peeves, because people are less inclined to listen because they say that it's "just another color" -- and they don't always believe you when you explain why it's not. In most of the "Silver Labs" I have seen, they have looked more like Weims. They seem to have pointy noses and a more sleek build than any Lab should. I think in some ways this is worse than a "Doodle dog" because they are passing them off as purebreds, and people become so misinformed and then don't want to believe the truth.

IRescue, this is not a color that is genetically produced by Labs. They come in three colors (black, yellow, chocolate) and only three colors. Sometimes mis-marks crop up, like brindling, white marks, tan points, etc. but even then it's usually only a patch instead of an entire brindle dog or something of the like. I have seen a few Chocolate Labs with tan points, and even so it was *very* hard to see, you almost have to see the sun reflect off of it. My two girls are both examples of "unaccepted" pigment that is naturally produced. They are yellows with a chocolate dog's pigment -- instead of a black nose and black skin, it is chocolate/liver. Also, Luka has a chocolate patch on her front right leg, which is a mismark.

TORNER RETRIEVERS, welcome to Pet Talk! Your Labs are beautiful! Labs are one of my two favorite breeds (my other being the Great Dane) and I own two myself. They are both in my signature. Nova (light yellow) is 10 months old and Luka (dark yellow) is almost 2 years old. Nova is from a back yard breeder. I regret buying from them but don't regret my girl. She is the best thing that has happened to me, and she is just so smart and so well-mannered. She does have hip dysplasia, though, as well as allergies. We adopted Luka in November from the humane society. They are both from hunting lines so of course don't fit the breed standard. I also have a White German Shepherd/Pit Bull mix named Mandy, and she is 8 years old.

[Suki Wingy]

I like your dog! Nice Stock ;) That is why I prefer show bred over field bred

[.sarah]

I like your dog! Nice Stock ;) That is why I prefer show bred over field bred
Why? ... Because of the way they look? Sorry I don't understand :o

[Suki Wingy]

I just like the chunky and stockyness in labs, that is what I grew up seeing, so I guess that is why I like them more. I never liked the personality ofthe labs too much, but I like the look of the stocky ones better.

[.sarah]

I just like the chunky and stockyness in labs, that is what I grew up seeing, so I guess that is why I like them more. I never liked the personality ofthe labs too much, but I like the look of the stocky ones better.
Ah, okay. I'm the opposite. In addition to personality and drive, I prefer the look of field Labs. To each his own. :)

[CagneyDog]

NO ONE HAS EVER DOCUMENTED HAVING A SILVER LAB FROM PUREBRED LABRADORS

Actually, I believe there has been. As far as I know their diluted choclates. :confused:

[sammy101]

As far as I know their diluted choclates. :confused:

yes that is always what i heard. :confused: some i see dont look like weims at all? :confused:
these ones look very much lab to me
http://www.silverlabs.com/gallery.htm

[CagneyDog]

DNA testing has been done to prove they are pure bred. They've also studied the genetic makeup and have ruled out that Wemenier are cross bred in them. AKC accepts them as chocolate labs.

[emilysgk]

I can see it in them dogs from the gallery posted. There heads are not quite right, and the ears. I somewhat see the difference in the bodies also. To some, a lab is a lab is a lab, but the people who know differently are looking at more specific points on the dog that are not right. If all the silver labs were the *charcoal* variety...then maybe it would be much more believable that they came from nothing but pure labs. It looks to me like some are getting smart with it and have breed just right with enough generations that they are starting to look really close to the real thing. How do you think new breeds and colors were ever created? You keep breeding them the way you want them, with enough time, no fail you get your desired result. Its not there at all yet. To preserve the lab as it should be, this needs to stop. Unfortunatly, most typical pet owner know nothing about breeding, nor the standards a dog should fit, and a large majority may not even care. They want what they want. This is much worse than the cross breeds being sold, the doodles and such, because they are being passed as pure.

I dont agree with people buying up the fancy new mixes, but at least they are being sold as what they are. Then again I could be way off...how can something be this bad, and go this far, and the AKC never be able to find a way to stop it? There are a lot of rules with breeders, and with trouble afoot your not going to be able to register your pups.... so I am undecided in that manner. But I do agree that the labs certainly look mixed to me.

[.sarah]

DNA testing has been done to prove they are pure bred.
That is not true. DNA testing cannot prove breed. If they were cross-bred with Weim in most cases it was too far back to prove the breed (the parents would be dead, all DNA testing can do is prove the parents).


They've also studied the genetic makeup and have ruled out that Wemenier are cross bred in them. AKC accepts them as chocolate labs.
Not saying you're wrong, but where did you read this? I have seen everything say the exact opposite. As far as I know they are *still* studying to try to prove or disprove the Wiem is in them. AKC accepts them as Chocolate Labs because silver is not an approved color and breeders say that they are dilute chocolate. AKC does not look at the puppies that are registered, therefor you could easily pass a silver as chocolate on registration papers, the same way I could have marked Nova as a black or chocolate -- they'd have never known. If you look in the breed standard, chocolate is described as "light to dark chocolate", not "dilute chocolate" (silver).


these ones look very much lab to me
http://www.silverlabs.com/gallery.htm
I'm not sure how familiar you are with Labs. I am very familiar though I wouldn't call myself an expert (by no means could I judge them in conformation!) but those dogs definetly don't look like Labs to me. To an untrained eye, yes, I can see where they would look like a Lab. But they look very unproportional in head to body ratio, and their heads just ... aren't right. They still look Weim-ish to me, and that's really the only way I can explain it.

emilysgk, I agree with what you said completely!

[AllAmericanPUP]

I DO NOT agree with breeding silver labs, they shouldnt be bred and they certainly shouldnt be bred for money like these breeders are doing.

labs can come in alot of mismarks
i think there was a link posted about mismarked labs on here? or maybe that was a different board...

here is something on black and tan labs
http://cdc.guidingeyes.org/Adoptions/pdf2.pdf

and here is a site about other mismarks
http://www.blueknightlabs.com/mismarks/

[.sarah]

Here are two more links for mismarks if anyone is interested.
Mismarks 1 (http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html) & Mismarks 2 (http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks2.html)

Also, a link from the same website about Silver Labs
The Truth Behind "Silver" Labradors (http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html)

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

TORNER RETRIEVERS, welcome to Pet Talk! Your Labs are beautiful! Labs are one of my two favorite breeds (my other being the Great Dane) and I own two myself. They are both in my signature. Nova (light yellow) is 10 months old and Luka (dark yellow) is almost 2 years old. Nova is from a back yard breeder. I regret buying from them but don't regret my girl. She is the best thing that has happened to me, and she is just so smart and so well-mannered. She does have hip dysplasia, though, as well as allergies. We adopted Luka in November from the humane society. They are both from hunting lines so of course don't fit the breed standard. I also have a White German Shepherd/Pit Bull mix named Mandy, and she is 8 years old.


THANKS FOR THE WELCOMING SARAH. I'M GLAD YOU LIKED MY DOGS. I ALSO HAVE A GIRL BOUGHT FROM A BACKYARD BREEDER. SHE IS THE FIRST LAB I PURCHASED AND SHE MADE ME FALL IN LOVE WITH THE BREED. NOW I LOVE SHOWING AND BREEDING BETTER DOGS.

BY THE WAY, YOUR GIRLS ARE LOVELY.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

DNA testing has been done to prove they are pure bred. They've also studied the genetic makeup and have ruled out that Wemenier are cross bred in them. AKC accepts them as chocolate labs.


SOME RESPONSES TO SOME OF THE SILVER LABRADOR CLAIMS
One of the Silver breeders state on their site:

"Are Silver Labs Pure bred Labrador Retriever?
DNA testing and mapping of silver labs was done during the close of the Twentieth Century and meticulous investigation of each silver labs ancestry was conducted by investigators from AKC"

The current DNA testing doesn't prove the dog is a purebred Labrador. The DNA testing available only proves that dog A and that dog B are the parents of dog C. No where does it prove that the one or more of the grandparents of dog A wasn't a weim or a weim cross.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

Also one states:

"Silver Labs are pure bred Labrador Retrievers and their ancestry is beyond reproach. Fortunately, kennel clubs around the world do not have the political pressure from mercenary American breeders of "normal" colored labs and already accept silver labs without all the political fuss and pressure being applied to AKC "

Sorry but there isn't a kennel club in the world that recognizes silver Labradors. In every Labrador standard used throughout the world, it states that Labradors come in black, yellow and chocolate.

*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*

This one was a laugher:

"There is no doubt the increase in popularity and demand for Silver Labs is applying significant financial pressure to breeders of black and yellow labs, but there is also little doubt that AKC will eventually have to succumb to the pressure to make silver a recognized color in America."

First of all, the AKC doesn't make the decision on what colors are recognized for each breed. The PARENT CLUB of each breed makes and sets the standards. I can guarantee you that it will be a cold day in you-know-where before the LRC, Inc. would ever recognize this color.

Second of all, as to the "significant financial pressure" that I and other breeders of the "real" colors of Labradors are under - BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! A responsible breeder never breeds for a "color" nor does one breed because of financial reasons. Most responsible breeders don't worry about profit. Why? Because we rarely if ever make one and we do not breed for financial gain.

So you can see that all these claims by the Silver Lab people are far-fetched at best.

[CagneyDog]

There is no actual way to find out which facts are correct. I've read many websites that have said this stuff (.sarah, pm me if you want me to provide you with the websites I looked at. I'll have to get them to you tomorrow though, it's too late tonight.) and I've seen several that contradict this stuff. I have no idea if I'm right (sorry if I gave that impression in my post), and I don't think any of you know for certain that you are right.

I'm not really sure what side I stand on when it comes to silver labs. Part of me thinks that breeders shouldn't be breeding silver labs but then I'm thinking that this is what happened with MANY breeds. (People crossed bred and introduced foriegn genes) Lots of people think that the silver Lab will be a reconized AKC color with in the next few years, anyways.

[.sarah]

THANKS FOR THE WELCOMING SARAH. I'M GLAD YOU LIKED MY DOGS. I ALSO HAVE A GIRL BOUGHT FROM A BACKYARD BREEDER. SHE IS THE FIRST LAB I PURCHASED AND SHE MADE ME FALL IN LOVE WITH THE BREED. NOW I LOVE SHOWING AND BREEDING BETTER DOGS.

BY THE WAY, YOUR GIRLS ARE LOVELY.
Thank you :) Nova has definetly made me fall in love with the breed. I used to want to breed dogs, but I'm more into rescuing now. You just can't beat the feeling of saving a life! :)

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

I'm not really sure what side I stand on when it comes to silver labs. Part of me thinks that breeders shouldn't be breeding silver labs but then I'm thinking that this is what happened with MANY breeds. (People crossed bred and introduced foriegn genes) Lots of people think that the silver Lab will be a reconized AKC color with in the next few years, anyways.

usually, people who don't care about a breed uses these kind of excuses. the fact that some breeds have been in the same situation doesn't mean this is right.

on the other hand, the AKC can't decide which breed caracteristics they'll recogniza or not. this can only be done by the parent club of the breed.

[Crazy-Cat-Lover]

Silver Valley (Breeder) (http://www.silvervalleykennels.com/pic11.htm)

-and-

Silver Labrador Information (http://www.silverlabradorinfo.com/)

Quote from website...

"Breeders of black and yellow Labs saw their market share fall through the floor when chocolates became popular in the Lab marketplace. These same breeders opposed recognition of chocolates by AKC for decades. Opposition breeders claim their resentment is based on breeding ethics. However, their breeding ethics extend only as far as their pocketbooks. Aside from the presence of a genetic combination which produces Silver coats, Silver Labs have the same genetic makeup as non-Silver Labs. Some of these ethical breeders freely admit killing Silver puppies to protect the breed standards. In reality, the Silver puppies they kill have the same genetic make-up as the blacks, yellows, and chocolates they allow to survive. The only ethic these breeders are protecting is the ethical investment they have in their black and yellow bloodlines."

:rolleyes:

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Silver Valley (Breeder) (http://www.silvervalleykennels.com/pic11.htm)

-and-

Silver Labrador Information (http://www.silverlabradorinfo.com/)

Quote from website...

"Breeders of black and yellow Labs saw their market share fall through the floor when chocolates became popular in the Lab marketplace. These same breeders opposed recognition of chocolates by AKC for decades. Opposition breeders claim their resentment is based on breeding ethics. However, their breeding ethics extend only as far as their pocketbooks. Aside from the presence of a genetic combination which produces Silver coats, Silver Labs have the same genetic makeup as non-Silver Labs. Some of these ethical breeders freely admit killing Silver puppies to protect the breed standards. In reality, the Silver puppies they kill have the same genetic make-up as the blacks, yellows, and chocolates they allow to survive. The only ethic these breeders are protecting is the ethical investment they have in their black and yellow bloodlines."

:rolleyes:

****Fact: This statement is so silly. First of all, breeders dedicated to the Labrador Retriever don't breed dogs according to any "market". Secondly, ethical breeders don't breed just to make money so this contradictory. Mismarked puppies do occur in Labs and have done so for decades, this is well documented. Reputable breeders simply sell these puppies as pets. So to say that "ethical" breeders have covered up the Silvers by killing them to protect their black and yellow investments is ridiculous, especially since Silver breeders say that their color comes from chocolates. If it is from the chocolates, then what and how would they be protecting blacks and yellows that supposedly don't carry the gene for Silver in the first place?

[IRescue452]

Torner, I'm not judging you, but I find it hard to take the opinions of a breeder I know nothing about. Just recently a Dane breeder told me that dogs don't raid gardens, but its a very common occurrence sent into dog advice columns I give answers for. This highly reputable breeder lost all support from me. They also gave a few other false "facts". Do you know how many breeders out there know nothing about dogs? Especially labs. I see so many bad labs that are AKC bred from "reputable" breeders, they even show up in shows. They have sickle tails that go way past the hocks and pointy muzzles and no lung capacity to go retrieving birds in water. I'd rather see you attack these breeders and the backyard silver breeders than the dogs themselves. Maybe someday the silver lab will be bred by good breeders and be an accepted colour. I wouldn't care to stop that from happening. What I would care to stop is the breeders who do this for profit and don't care to preserve the lab standard and type while trying out the colour.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

IRescue452,

i do think the dogs themselves are not to blame, but the breeders. i'm not attacking the dogs, but the people who breed them and those who buy them just to get the last dog trend.
i reaaaallly don't think reputable breeders and the parent club of the breed will accept this color, due to all the doubts there are about this dogs being purebred labs.
i do agree there are several breeders that claim to be "reputable" and "professional" just because they own AKC registered dogs and step into the ring to show them. that's when your knowledge about the breed comes in handy, to be able to tell apart a lier from a real reputable breeder.
by the way, now that i showed you my dogs, what do you think? lol.

[dab_20]

well if no one ever bought them, what would happen to them? not saying you should, because if they can't be shown then they are byb puppies. its better to buy from a shelter. just like irescue said, you shoulden't not get a dog because the color doesn't fit the breed standered.

well, the thing is, i try and make a point, and what i try to say just comes out wrong. lol... but yah, i guess i agree with you.

[.sarah]

I guess my opinion is this: As of now we don't know if the color occurs naturally or if they are crossed with Weim. Most certainly look to have Weim in them, but that doesn't necessarily make them a Weim mix. I mean, paint Nova silver and she could pass as a Weim mix at the shelter! But until we know the origin of the color, I don't think it should be bred for. I couldn't call a silver Lab breeder responsible since the facts are not known yet. I just wouldn't buy an unaccepted color unless if it occured naturally, and the breeders weren't breeding strictly for it and sold it as a pet on a spay/neuter contract. Like merle Danes occur naturally in harlequin breedings, but they are not standard. There is nothing wrong with these pups. But I have yet to see a Chocolate Lab just produce a silver pup if they are not from a silver lineage themselves. When that happens, I'll believe it occurs naturally ;)

[IRescue452]

I think they can be purebred, as well as black and tan labs and other mismarks. As long as they are purebred and fit the standard I still won't understand not accepting them. And you won't understand me. I am into working dogs. Working dogs were once bred purely for type, concern for colour wasn't important. Colour alone doesn't affect the dog.
Actually I wanted to know information about your breeding operation. (put any breeder in front of me and the first thing I want to know is everything about them) Pictures of some dogs tells me nothing about a breeder. You could be the best breeder in the world or the worst for all I know from pictures. I wish you'd have posted some stacked photos of your dogs. They look good but a bit overweight for the type. The last photo looks like there is something wrong with the dog's back legs, but its probably the way it is standing.

[boxersrule]

I always have said no to Silver Labs, and always will.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Actually I wanted to know information about your breeding operation. (put any breeder in front of me and the first thing I want to know is everything about them) Pictures of some dogs tells me nothing about a breeder. You could be the best breeder in the world or the worst for all I know from pictures. I wish you'd have posted some stacked photos of your dogs. They look good but a bit overweight for the type. The last photo looks like there is something wrong with the dog's back legs, but its probably the way it is standing.

I'm not trying to make you believe i'm the best breeder in the world, but that i'm good at what i do and know what i'm talking about because i love doing it and live for ti.

ACTUALLY THERE'S A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN OVERWEIGHT AND ROBUST/SOLID CONSTITUTION.

about the type..the american blood lines (show quality) are just like the ones shown in my pictures. here's a link to some of america's most famous and reputable breeders. take a look and see what i'm talking about.

www.dickendall.com
http://www.tabathalabs.com/pagestuds.htm
http://www.windfalllabs.com/boys.htm
http://members.tripod.com/~beulahland/tom.htm
http://www.belquest.com/coffee.html
http://www.minefalls.com/Windfalls%20Pipeline.htm

about the last photo, the hind legs look different because of the way the dog is standing. this dog is free of hip and elbow dysplasia "HD A" (which means Excelent), certified by the mexican kennel club. he is mex/am/intnl/latam/great mex ch/BISS

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

I always have said no to Silver Labs, and always will.

THAT'S THE SPIRIT!

[Jessika]

I've heard of them before actually and after some reading on another forum discovered that "silver labs" genetically can't even exist!

"Silver Labs" are another scheme just like "breeders" who breed designer breeds such as Labradoodles and Puggles, etc.

[IRescue452]

Oh I know the solid type, I thought it was the English type, Amercan is the taller more racy type I thought. I like the stocky type best but they do look like they could stand to lose a few pounds imo. I believe you are a good breeder, I was just curious about what you are into with breeding and showing. Like I said, anytime I come across a breeder I don't know I like to find out about them. Just my own curiosity and love of dogs.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Jessika:

your dogs are beautiful!

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Oh I know the solid type, I thought it was the English type, Amercan is the taller more racy type I thought. I like the stocky type best but they do look like they could stand to lose a few pounds imo. I believe you are a good breeder, I was just curious about what you are into with breeding and showing. Like I said, anytime I come across a breeder I don't know I like to find out about them. Just my own curiosity and love of dogs.

about 10 years or so ago people used to think that american dogs were taller, with a sharper muzzle and a narrower head than the europeans, which were considered to be smaller, "roundier" and with shorter muzzle and wider head.
i still don't know why people used to think so. i do know that the taller ones (considered to be the american type) have a good retrieving instinct more frequently than the others. maybe that's why american's focused their breeding on temperament and retrieving skills more than on conformation and gave life to this thought.

now a days, american dogs are much heavier and stacked than the europeans, with better tails (which is considered by lots of breeders to be the most important part of the lab's conformation), coats and retrieving skills.

here are some links to famous european kennels

http://www.saunalahti.fi/mallorns/
http://www.joebattsarm.com/mardas/
http://www.labradorsofmistydreams.com/
http://members.lycos.co.uk/sandyland/
http://winnies.puh.org/

[.sarah]

Oh I know the solid type, I thought it was the English type, Amercan is the taller more racy type I thought. I like the stocky type best but they do look like they could stand to lose a few pounds imo. I believe you are a good breeder, I was just curious about what you are into with breeding and showing. Like I said, anytime I come across a breeder I don't know I like to find out about them. Just my own curiosity and love of dogs.
The taller, leaner ones are called field-bred Labs. A lot of people do have that misconception though. Here's a page about it if you're interested: English or American Labrador? (http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/english-american.html)

[Jessika]

Jessika:

your dogs are beautiful!

Awww thank you so much!!

[IRescue452]

hmm one of my breed encyclopedias has this as the difference between American and English, but I'll take the breeders advice on what to call each type. I do consider tails important when I look at labs. A dog with a curly sickle tail isn't a good lab to me. My neighbor's had a huge lab, maybe 30", a good type though with good features. He'd retrieve until he had to lay down exhausted.

[.sarah]

hmm one of my breed encyclopedias has this as the difference between American and English, but I'll take the breeders advice on what to call each type. I do consider tails important when I look at labs. A dog with a curly sickle tail isn't a good lab to me. My neighbor's had a huge lab, maybe 30", a good type though with good features. He'd retrieve until he had to lay down exhausted.
I used to call it American and English too until I was corrected by Nova's dog trainer, who breeds Show Labs. She said her's were American though I kept saying Nova was American and her Labs were English. So I decided to look it up and most of the breeders refer to it that way.

Even though Nova was from a BYB she still has a strong tail like a Lab should. It's longer than a Show Lab's would be, but it's still quite capable of knocking things off the table ... Luka's is too.

[Cataholic]

My sister's chocolate lab- European, is very different from the American ones I am used to. In my opinion, I like the look better than the American ones. Though, at heart, he is still a labbie- with a tail so strong he could start a tornado! :D

[dab_20]

i like the feild bred labs personally. my friend has three yellow field bred labs, i love them! although if i could get a lab i would get a chocolate. because black and yellow are pretty common. but whatever is waiting at the shelter for a family suits me just fine!

[cali]

as far as I am concerned restricting breeds to certain colours is wrong. period. colour has very little to do with what any breed was bred for, BCs colours are restricted to only a few and are not allowed to be mostly white, the conformation world came up with a bogus explaination for it, saying that mostky white BCs dont command the sheeps respect, which is a load of bull, some of the top herding lines in the world are mostly white. they also come in EVERY single colour and markings avaliable in dogs, no colour should be bred for or bred away from, because it has zippo to do with working ability.

I am on the working side of the fence for all breeds, anything that does not affect working ability is NOT nessassary, but if it inhibates working ability(like super long and fluffy coats, shorts muzzles and overly stocky builds) then it needs to be bred away from and avoided.

[sammy101]

as far as I am concerned restricting breeds to certain colours is wrong. period. colour has very little to do with what any breed was bred for, BCs colours are restricted to only a few and are not allowed to be mostly white, the conformation world came up with a bogus explaination for it, saying that mostky white BCs dont command the sheeps respect, which is a load of bull, some of the top herding lines in the world are mostly white. they also come in EVERY single colour and markings avaliable in dogs, no colour should be bred for or bred away from, because it has zippo to do with working ability.

i agree with you.

[.sarah]

as far as I am concerned restricting breeds to certain colours is wrong. period. colour has very little to do with what any breed was bred for, BCs colours are restricted to only a few and are not allowed to be mostly white, the conformation world came up with a bogus explaination for it, saying that mostky white BCs dont command the sheeps respect, which is a load of bull, some of the top herding lines in the world are mostly white. they also come in EVERY single colour and markings avaliable in dogs, no colour should be bred for or bred away from, because it has zippo to do with working ability.

I am on the working side of the fence for all breeds, anything that does not affect working ability is NOT nessassary, but if it inhibates working ability(like super long and fluffy coats, shorts muzzles and overly stocky builds) then it needs to be bred away from and avoided.
Did you read through this thread? These dogs are most likely bred with Weimeraner. If they are mixed breeds, do you still support it?

[.sarah]

i like the feild bred labs personally. my friend has three yellow field bred labs, i love them! although if i could get a lab i would get a chocolate. because black and yellow are pretty common. but whatever is waiting at the shelter for a family suits me just fine!
Wierd, around here I see mostly Chocolate Labs.

[cane_corso_mom]

I personally think people cross breed Weirmeraners with Chocolate Labs and it ends up being called a 'Silver Lab', I have no idea if this is true though :confused:

[cali]

I did read through the thread, and I personally dont belive that they are crossed with Weims, there is evidence supposrting both sides, its up to each individual what they choose to believe. some say silver is not geneticly possable..so? we dont know everything yet, I own a dog who's colours are not geneticly possable according to current knowledge, I also have a guinea pig whos colours are not geneticly possable by cirrent knowledge. just because something is not possable by current knowledge hardly means its not possable, because there is a LOT in this world that we dont understand.

[cane_corso_mom]

Hey guys, check this out...

AKC registered Silver Labs????? (http://classifieds.yahoo.com/detail.html?cc=pets&fullnodeid=750049675&cid=pets-1130519789-769716)

:confused: :confused:

[IRescue452]

Of all the silver lab pictures I've seen, I've not once seen one that looks like it has weim in it. They are a dilute chocolate lab and fit the standard to a tee. Its like saying a brindle dalmatian has pit bull in it.

Here's more:
At the end of the Twentieth Century, the frequency of silver (gray) labs began to increase in North America due to an increase in the number of chocolate labs in the gene pool of Labrador Retrievers. These Silver Labs in turn fueled an enormous controversy within the Labrador community.

Fortunately, by the advent of the Twenty-First Century, the controversy surrounding Silver Labs subsided except for a few remaining breeders of "standard" colors. These remaining opponents of Silver Labs are the K-9 version of the "Flat Earth Society". Unfortunately, those holdout breeders who refuse to acknowledge AKC's acceptance of silver labs, continue to confuse the general public by making unfounded accusations about the purity of the Silver Labs breeding. In an attempt to quiet the ranting of the more vocal opponents of Silver Labs, one breeder of silvers offered a $100,000.00 Silver Lab Challenge to any of these "experts" who wished to put their money where their mouth was concerning their accusations surrounding the ancestry of silver labs. And to the man, not one of those "experts" you see on the internet was willing to stand behind their Flat Earth accusations regarding Silver Labs.

Are Silver Labs Pure bred Labrador Retriever?

DNA testing and mapping of silver labs was done during the close of the Twentieth Century and meticulous investigation of each silver labs ancestry was conducted by investigators from AKC. All conclusions were the same, i.e., "there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers," (see conclusion issued by AKC). Amazingly, the Flat Earth Opponents of Silver Labs counter these scientific conclusions with the incredibly insane accusation that the "cross-breeding" which allegedly produced the Silver Labs was either covered up by line breeding or happened to long ago to be detected by DNA testing. If anyone ever needed an indication of just how ignorant opponents of Silver Labs are, this statement should be the key. Every K-9 carries in its genes a complete history of its ancestors going all the way back to wolves.

Everything written about the Silver Labs is based upon speculation. One statement that is commonly made is that there had to have been a Weimeraner introduced into the bloodlines to produce the silver color. This statement has been proven false. UC Berkley studied the genetic makeup of the Silver Lab against that of the Weimeraner. Researchers concluded that it was not the same.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Here's more:
At the end of the Twentieth Century, the frequency of silver (gray) labs began to increase in North America due to an increase in the number of chocolate labs in the gene pool of Labrador Retrievers. These Silver Labs in turn fueled an enormous controversy within the Labrador community.

Fortunately, by the advent of the Twenty-First Century, the controversy surrounding Silver Labs subsided except for a few remaining breeders of "standard" colors. These remaining opponents of Silver Labs are the K-9 version of the "Flat Earth Society". Unfortunately, those holdout breeders who refuse to acknowledge AKC's acceptance of silver labs, continue to confuse the general public by making unfounded accusations about the purity of the Silver Labs breeding. In an attempt to quiet the ranting of the more vocal opponents of Silver Labs, one breeder of silvers offered a $100,000.00 Silver Lab Challenge to any of these "experts" who wished to put their money where their mouth was concerning their accusations surrounding the ancestry of silver labs. And to the man, not one of those "experts" you see on the internet was willing to stand behind their Flat Earth accusations regarding Silver Labs.

Are Silver Labs Pure bred Labrador Retriever?

DNA testing and mapping of silver labs was done during the close of the Twentieth Century and meticulous investigation of each silver labs ancestry was conducted by investigators from AKC. All conclusions were the same, i.e., "there was no reason to doubt that the dogs were purebred Labrador Retrievers," (see conclusion issued by AKC). Amazingly, the Flat Earth Opponents of Silver Labs counter these scientific conclusions with the incredibly insane accusation that the "cross-breeding" which allegedly produced the Silver Labs was either covered up by line breeding or happened to long ago to be detected by DNA testing. If anyone ever needed an indication of just how ignorant opponents of Silver Labs are, this statement should be the key. Every K-9 carries in its genes a complete history of its ancestors going all the way back to wolves.

Everything written about the Silver Labs is based upon speculation. One statement that is commonly made is that there had to have been a Weimeraner introduced into the bloodlines to produce the silver color. This statement has been proven false. UC Berkley studied the genetic makeup of the Silver Lab against that of the Weimeraner. Researchers concluded that it was not the same.


Silver Labs were registered as Silver both on the registration certificate and the AKC color charts until 1987. Breeders who could not produce Silver puppies protested to the AKC and they were only allowed to be registered as a shade of chocolate.

****Fact: Silver was NEVER listed as a color choice on puppy registration slips! Unfortunately it was common practice for the AKC to have a blank line for "other color" on ALL breeds' registration slips. This was before the computer age and it was easier for the AKC to use the same slip as some breeds come in any color. Also, uniformed pet buyers would register their puppies as whatever "they" interpretted it be such as blonde, golden, creme instead of the proper color yellow or liver, brown instead of chocolate. This is were the loop hole started and how the first Silvers were registered. The AKC standard has NEVER listed Silver as a recognized color.

****Fact: A shade of chocolate, which is deceiving to begin with, is the only way to register these crossbreds with AKC at this present time. Simply put, purebred Silver Labs do not exist!

****Fact: According to the AKC standard, the chocolate color can range from a light brown to dark brown. No where does it mention, Gray, Silver, or Blue/Gray pigmentation.

****Fact: A pedigree obtained from AKC on one particular "Silver" Lab (registered as chocolate), also showed that there has been radical inbreeding taking place amongst one breeder. Not only was this dog a result of a father to daughter breeding, the daughter was a result of a full brother to sister breeding! Thus, keeping the dilute "silver/Weimeraner" gene, while being able to pass DNA testing to determine parentage.

Reputable breeders are so adamant about Silver Labs because they saw their share of the market "fall through the floor when chocolates became popular." These "ethical" breeders have resorted to killing any Silver puppies to protect their investment in the black and yellow bloodlines.

****Fact: This statement is so silly. First of all, breeders dedicated to the Labrador Retriever don't breed dogs according to any "market". Secondly, ethical breeders don't breed just to make money so this contradictory. Mismarked puppies do occur in Labs and have done so for decades, this is well documented. Reputable breeders simply sell these puppies as pets. So to say that "ethical" breeders have covered up the Silvers by killing them to protect their black and yellow investments is ridiculous, especially since Silver breeders say that their color comes from chocolates. If it is from the chocolates, then what and how would they be protecting blacks and yellows that supposedly don't carry the gene for Silver in the first place?

Silver Lab breeders would have you believe that Silver or gray Labs have been mentioned since people began writing about Labs.

****Fact: In all the books that this author has read, and believe me, it has been many from a range from the 1960's to present. From pet books to those written by very experienced, knowledgeable and reputable breeders all including an in-depth history on the Lab since its beginning. NEVER has this author seen a thoroughly "gray" adult Lab mentioned! If this were a true color gene that is associated with the recessive chocolate color, then it would have been around since the beginning, something that simply has never been established. This author would really like to know what literature these breeders are getting their information from. It would have been nice to have included a credit to certain books that mention adult "gray" Labs.

Ignorant and/or jealous breeders accuse the Silver Labs of being a cross between Labs and other breed(s). These accusations are based on finacial motives.

****Fact: This is a common accusation by knowledgeable breeders who have many, many years breeding Labradors true to the written standard as approved by the AKC which has NEVER acknowledged a Silver Lab. Breeders who make such statements about others being ignorant or jealous about this color only have profit on their mind. Breeding for a specific "rare" feature that is not part of the Lab's history is only thinking of the pocket book, as mentioned on the home page. The knowledgeable and reputable breeder of Labradors is concerned for the breed and its preservation. Making money is the furthest thing from their mind. Breeding quality Labradors for the improvement, betterment and preservation are their only goals! It has nothing to do with jealously and everything to do with keeping the Lab pure and protecting the original colors of the Lab: Black, yellow and chocolate.

One breeder has even gone so far as to offer a Silver Lab Challenge and will give anyone $100,000 to any "expert" that can disprove their Silver Labs are anything but purebred.

****Fact: DNA testing can only prove the parents. IT CANNOT INDENTIFY DIFFERENT BREEDS. Therefore, since some breeders have been duping the public with rare and exotic AKC Silvers for many generations with their inbred mixes, DNA can only confirm the parents of a puppy in question. It cannot go back further generations needed to prove that Weimeraners were introduced into the Lab gene pool. Therefore, no it cannot be proven. However, anyone with a trained eye in dog breeds and conformation can tell that these dogs are indeed crossbreds.

Here is the most probable scenario of how the Silver(Dilute)Gene was introduced: A litter in which there are both chocolate and "silver" pups. The owner marks the Other color box and puts down "silver". The AKC field rep goes out to see the litter. The sire IS a registered chocolate. The dam IS a registered chocolate. The DNA test proves all the pups, including the 3 "silver" ones are from those two parents. AKC does NOT have a choice but to register the puppies. They are from two registered Labs. Their position is that color ALONE can not designate the puppy as not purebred. In the case of the silvers, they were genetically proven to be from the parents stated on the registration application, so they had to be registerable as purebred!!! The real problem is that several generations earlier, some chocolate pups that were most likely sired by a Weim were registered as Labs because the breeder didn't know about the mismating. The silver color can be traced to a single line (and most likely a single litter) that was then linebred and eventually produced the silver pups. No where along the line was there an OBVIOUS attempt to bend the rules, but since AKC only requires the signatures of the sire and dam owners to register a litter, nothing can be done about it now. The error was set in the breed before DNA testing was being done, so it is really hard to undo it now. In closing, anytime someone tries to sell you something that is rare and exotic for an exorbitant amount of money, is only in it for one reason. MONEY. These Silver breeders are very defensive and secretive about "their" bloodlines. Some charge for information packets and if you ask any questions about their dogs, you will get a rude response. "Just buy the packet, so I can make money!" A reputable breeder will be extremely open and honest with puppy buyers and most have pictures AND pedigrees of their dogs on their websites to share with all who are interested. So why are these Silver breeders so defensive and secretive? Something to hide? They definitely do not have their dogs' and the breed's best interest in mind.

[cali]

newsflash! breeding for chocolate, yellow, and black IS breeding for COLOUR. if you were truly against breeding for colour then it would not even be factored into the equation, UNLESS it posed a health risk, but silver colour and mismarks dont affect the dogs ability to pick up a duck, until it inhibates the dogs ability to work, WHO CARES.

[IRescue452]

Thank you cali. I don't understand why these people are so against breeding a black and tan lab or any other mismark. Its still a quality lab. Some people say they should be spayed or neutered for population reasons, but the breeder could just as well produce as many puppies in black as they could in an "unaccepted" colour. If the puppies are black, yellow, or chocolate than its ok to add to the population, but not if they are another colour? None of the arguements I've seen on this thread are logical.

[Allecto]

My uneducated take on the situation:

There are silver labs that are beautiful purebreds no better or worse than any other lab based simply on the color of their fur. There are some breeders who accept this and are willing to include silvers in their breeding programs like any other color.

There are some silver labs created by crossbreeding to take a shortcut to this rare and beautiful variation. These dogs are, of course, no better or worse than any other lab mix, though I have some serious reservations about the breeders they come from.

And then there are a lot of breeders who won't accept any from the first group because the second group exists, and seems to be trying to convince people they are greatly inferior to other labs. This is beginning to give me some reservations baout these breeders as well.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Thank you cali. I don't understand why these people are so against breeding a black and tan lab or any other mismark. Its still a quality lab. Some people say they should be spayed or neutered for population reasons, but the breeder could just as well produce as many puppies in black as they could in an "unaccepted" colour. If the puppies are black, yellow, or chocolate than its ok to add to the population, but not if they are another colour? None of the arguements I've seen on this thread are logical.


the reason why reputable breeders and parent club of the breed are so against to the silver color is because there's a breed standard that is very specific about coloring and mismarks.

this standard was made for people to know how a lab should look like, not for some unethical bunch of people who make a living out of genetical alterations. i personally think that it's unffair to responsible and professional breeders that this people get away with it, just because there are ignorant and extreme dog lovers who wouldn't see the point. that means that a life devoted to improve the breed is useless, because in the end those are just dogs.

so you're telling me that (for example) if someone was to destroy the great dane as a breed, by making crosses with chihuahuas and creating a new breed called "miniature great dane", it would still be okay? after all, they're still dogs which deserve to be loved and it's a trendy new breed. a few generations later, you would be able to get a miniature great dane from two pure bred great danes.

just because people tend to have dogs and make stupid breedings, doesn't mean that people should fall for the lie and let this keep happening.
there's a reason for everything. our reason, as responsible breeders that we are, is to keep the breed as it should be, as how the pioneers of the breed intended it to be. they deserve our respect for their work of a lifetime.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

newsflash! breeding for chocolate, yellow, and black IS breeding for COLOUR. if you were truly against breeding for colour then it would not even be factored into the equation, UNLESS it posed a health risk, but silver colour and mismarks dont affect the dogs ability to pick up a duck, until it inhibates the dogs ability to work, WHO CARES.


ok...are you familiar to the breed standard at all?

black yellow and chocolate are the accepted colors. we do not breed for color, since black can be bred to yellow and chocolates. we do not breed to get just a color, we breed to get a type.

there's a reason why they are called "mismarks". a mismark if different from the permissible white marks.

silver is not an accepted color, not in the US, not in europe, not in latinamerica, not in australia, NOWHERE.

here's a bit of information about the breed standard regarding to coat and color:

Coat
The coat is a distinctive feature of the Labrador Retriever. It should be short, straight and very dense, giving a fairly hard feeling to the hand. The Labrador should have a soft, weather-resistant undercoat that provides protection from water, cold and all types of ground cover A slight wave down the back is permissible. Woolly coats, soft silky coats, and sparse slick coats are not typical of the breed, and should be severely penalized.

Color
The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. Black - Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. Yellow - Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. Chocolate - Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.

Disqualifications
Any deviation from the height prescribed in the Standard.
A thoroughly pink nose or one lacking in any pigment.
Eye rims without pigment.
Docking or otherwise altering the length or natural carriage of the tail.
Any other color or a combination of colors other than black, yellow or chocolate as described in the Standard.


Approved February 12, 1994
Effective March 31, 1994
the labrador retriever club, Inc. (AKC parent club of the labrador retriever breed)

this is what a lab should look like
http://www.dickendall.com/clark7.jpg
http://www.dickendall.com/burly5.jpg
http://www.belquest.com/coffeestand.jpg

[CagneyDog]

I did read through the thread, and I personally dont belive that they are crossed with Weims, there is evidence supposrting both sides, its up to each individual what they choose to believe. some say silver is not geneticly possable..so? we dont know everything yet, I own a dog who's colours are not geneticly possable according to current knowledge, I also have a guinea pig whos colours are not geneticly possable by cirrent knowledge. just because something is not possable by current knowledge hardly means its not possable, because there is a LOT in this world that we dont understand.


EXACTLY!!



Did you read through this thread? These dogs are most likely bred with Weimeraner. If they are mixed breeds, do you still support it?

Remember, It's not proven...This is just an opionin :)

[cali]

is to keep the breed as it should be, as how the pioneers of the breed intended it to be. they deserve our respect for their work of a lifetime.

your right the pioneers do deserve our respect and they deserve to have there breeds unchanged. too bad for you that they were bred to WORK a certain way, not LOOK a certain way.

[.sarah]

newsflash! breeding for chocolate, yellow, and black IS breeding for COLOUR. if you were truly against breeding for colour then it would not even be factored into the equation, UNLESS it posed a health risk, but silver colour and mismarks dont affect the dogs ability to pick up a duck, until it inhibates the dogs ability to work, WHO CARES.
I have never heard of a Silver Lab coming from a breeding of two normal color Labs by reputable breeders. If this has happened, correct me please. But at this point it is still up in the air as to where the silver comes from -- is it natural or does it come from Weims?

Until we know this for sure there is no good reason to breed Silver Labs. However, if this color is proved to be carried by Labs than I see no reason to exclude them from breeding programs.

You are right about this mismarks, however most people who want a Lab want it to LOOK like a Lab. I for one would not buy from a breeder who is breeding mis-marked dogs, because if I am putting out thousands of dollars for it I want it to look the way it's supposed to. If one crops up in a litter, fine, but don't breed it. Conformation preserves the breed so that it will look the same 100 years from now.

[.sarah]

Remember, It's not proven...This is just an opionin :)
Exactly, it's not proven. You shouldn't breed Silver Labs if you can't prove they aren't bred with Weimeraner. There is no proof at the moment. I for one do not like Weimeraners and do not want my Lab to have Weim in it.

[cali]

Conformation preserves the breed so that it will look the same 100 years from now.

haha thats the funnest thing I have ever heard! have you SEEN the dogs from even 50? 60? years ago they look NOTHING like the the dogs currently look.

there is only one way to truly preserve a breed. and that is to breed for working ability. why? because if dogs had a certain look it was a direct result of their work, if you start breeding only for the look then you loose the ability as well as start over emphizing featurs. if you breed for the work, you keep the look AND the ability. case in point I found a pictures of the very first cattle working border collie..the dog is nearly itentical to misty..a current cattle bred BC.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

your right the pioneers do deserve our respect and they deserve to have there breeds unchanged. too bad for you that they were bred to WORK a certain way, not LOOK a certain way.


i'm sorry to let you down, but they're made to retrieve as well as to look. there are tons of breeds which can retrieve, there are also mutts which can retrieve. the looks of the labrador are what makes them unique, a single breed.

[cali]

and yet there are show bred and feild bred which look nothing alike aint that funny?

[.sarah]

your right the pioneers do deserve our respect and they deserve to have there breeds unchanged. too bad for you that they were bred to WORK a certain way, not LOOK a certain way.
This isn't directed at you Cali I just wanted to quote you.

The Labs actually do look very different now than when they were first bred. The Field Labs are more what the original Labs looked like. I love Show Labs though they are not for me, as they are not really bred to do anything in most cases (but not all). Conformationally sounds Labs are generally bred for companionship. I cannot name one Lab breeder who shows their dogs in conformation that also runs field trials. This really bothers me, to tell you the truth, because the dogs are bred basically to look pretty. They are in the sporting group for a reason!

There is talk to split the breed, because the two types are so different. I am for it but also against it, because I know that the Field Labs will start to be bred for looks only, and that is not what the breed is there for. However Field Labs are so diverse in looks that it would be nice for breeders to have to adhere to a standard as well as hunting ability.

[.sarah]

haha thats the funnest thing I have ever heard! have you SEEN the dogs from even 50? 60? years ago they look NOTHING like the the dogs currently look.

there is only one way to truly preserve a breed. and that is to breed for working ability. why? because if dogs had a certain look it was a direct result of their work, if you start breeding only for the look then you loose the ability as well as start over emphizing featurs. if you breed for the work, you keep the look AND the ability. case in point I found a pictures of the very first cattle working border collie..the dog is nearly itentical to misty..a current cattle bred BC.
Wow, you don't have to be sarcastic with everything you say. I said 100 years from now, that's in the future, not in the past. Please stop being so rude in your posts.

[bckrazy]

I have only seen silver Labs being sold by BYB's, so I am just assuming that they are not legit. However, if they are, breeders still shouldn't be breeding to encourage this at all. It's kind of like breeding "white" Dobermans and GSD's, completely off of the breed standard. Dogs should be shown, IMHO, to prove their physical soundness and adherence to the standard. Why even have a kennel club or registry if there are no shows to prove the best of breeding stock? If a Lab is silver and not accepted, it obviously cannot be shown, and therefor cannot be proven as sound-bodied breeding stock. period.

I agree with you, Cali, BUT up to a certain point. If every breeder had no regard at all for appearance in dogs and only focused on performance, there would be many many flaws showing up and the specific appearance of many breeds would be lost. I believe very strongly in breeding for working ability AND structure, because working ability alone just won't preserve the classic appearance that people love about all of the dog breeds.

[.sarah]

I have only seen silver Labs being sold by BYB's, so I am just assuming that they are not legit. However, if they are, breeders still shouldn't be breeding to encourage this at all. It's kind of like breeding "white" Dobermans and GSD's, completely off of the breed standard. Dogs should be shown, IMHO, to prove their physical soundness and adherence to the standard. Why even have a kennel club or registry if there are no shows to prove the best of breeding stock? If a Lab is silver and not accepted, it obviously cannot be shown, and therefor cannot be proven as sound-bodied breeding stock. period.

I agree with you, Cali, BUT up to a certain point. If every breeder had no regard at all for appearance in dogs and only focused on performance, there would be many many flaws showing up and the specific appearance of many breeds would be lost. I believe very strongly in breeding for working ability AND structure, because working ability alone just won't preserve the classic appearance that people love about all of the dog breeds.

Thank you, you took the words right out of my mouth.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

[QUOTE=IRescue452]Of all the silver lab pictures I've seen, I've not once seen one that looks like it has weim in it. They are a dilute chocolate lab and fit the standard to a tee. Its like saying a brindle dalmatian has pit bull in it.

okay...look at this pictures and tell me you really don't see weimaraner in it.

http://www.geocities.com/silverlabs1/silverlab.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/silverlabs1/test.jpghttp://www.silverlabradorinfo.com/images/3gen.JPEGhttp://tntsilverlabradors.com/images/250_Bella.jpghttp://tntsilverlabradors.com/images/156_10182005069.jpg

[cali]

I did not mean to sound so rude, I just hear that kind of thing all the time, and it annoys the heck out of me. my point is that if the dogs have changed so much despite the stadrads in the past why on earth would it not continue to change in the future? I was using the past as an example, the standards make no difference because there will always be fads, when there is a fad you suddenly get a million dogs from one line, and suddenly the look is not the same as it was a generation or 2 before. breeds are constantly changing in look despite the stardards.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

and yet there are show bred and feild bred which look nothing alike aint that funny?

actually it's not funny. please, take a look to the sites of reputable breeders and find out that they also have hunting champions which look as they're suposed to.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

I did not mean to sound so rude, I just hear that kind of thing all the time, and it annoys the heck out of me. my point is that if the dogs have changed so much despite the stadrads in the past why on earth would it not continue to change in the future? I was using the past as an example, the standards make no difference because there will always be fads, when there is a fad you suddenly get a million dogs from one line, and suddenly the look is not the same as it was a generation or 2 before. breeds are constantly changing in look despite the stardards.


they don't change despite the standard...the vary in lines and breeder's preferences, but in the end, they all need to stick to the breed standard.

[.sarah]

actually it's not funny. please, take a look to the sites of reputable breeders and find out that they also have hunting champions which look as they're suposed to.
If you could please direct me to those sites ... I hardly *ever* see Show Labs that hunt as well. I think that's awesome! I don't like it when the dog is only shown in conformation and comes from conformation lines only. I see that far too often with this breed. I already don't consider Show Labs to be the same breed as Field Labs, because they are so different.

[cali]

oh I know there are some show dogs that can work, but the work should be the primarly goal, if one wants to breed for a certain look it should be secondary to the work itself. the orgilnal intent of the conformation ring was to judge working dogs on their outward appearence, then some poeple got competive and decided to ignore the work and focas on the look, this is where the split began, then the people who started breeding for the certain look began to dominate in that aspect, and shadowed out the working bred, they atrted to believe that they were supierior, yet its they they deviated from the the real breed.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

If you could please direct me to those sites ... I hardly *ever* see Show Labs that hunt as well. I think that's awesome! I don't like it when the dog is only shown in conformation and comes from conformation lines only. I see that far too often with this breed. I already don't consider Show Labs to be the same breed as Field Labs, because they are so different.

These are a few labs with retrieving skills and good conformation. (i'll be adding as i'm finding them)

http://www.dickendall.com/tim.html
http://www.dickendall.com/chuck.html
http://www.dickendall.com/anslo.html
http://www.dickendall.com/drifter.html
http://www.dickendall.com/remmy.html
http://www.dickendall.com/ruffy.html
http://www.dickendall.com/orange.html
http://www.dickendall.com/arnold.html

http://www.belquest.com/aaron.html
http://www.belquest.com/knight.html

http://www.windfalllabs.com/Abbey/index.htm
http://www.windfalllabs.com/stormy/index.htm

http://www.hyspire.com/bandit.html

[CagneyDog]

I have never heard of a Silver Lab coming from a breeding of two normal color Labs by reputable breeders

How many silver Lab breeders do you know well enough to judge the quality of their puppies?



Exactly, it's not proven. You shouldn't breed Silver Labs if you can't prove they aren't bred with Weimeraner. There is no proof at the moment. I for one do not like Weimeraners and do not want my Lab to have Weim in it.

Well this can go both ways. What I'm trying to get across is that people that are posting on this thread are biased to one opionin. It's not proven that there is Weim so WHY would you assume so? There is NO proof either way.

[.sarah]

How many silver Lab breeders do you know well enough to judge the quality of their puppies?
That is not what I said. What I am saying is that I do not know of Silver Labs coming from normal colored parents from reputable breeders. This excludes people who breed Silver exclusively and BYBs.


Well this can go both ways. What I'm trying to get across is that people that are posting on this thread are biased to one opionin. It's not proven that there is Weim so WHY would you assume so? There is NO proof either way.
Because they look like they have it in them. I don't think that they should be bred until there is proof that they are purebred Labs. And you just said it yourself, there is no proof either way. If you purchased a Silver Lab from a "reputable" breeder wouldn't you be pissed if proof later came out that they were cross bred with Weims? I would be.

[CagneyDog]

http://www.puppydogweb.com/breeders/pic_images/labs_tdehaan.jpg

http://www.silvervalleykennels.com/images/dog2med.jpg

Sure don't look like Weims to me. If it was part Weim why would it's litter mates be chocolate labs?

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

oh I know there are some show dogs that can work, but the work should be the primarly goal, if one wants to breed for a certain look it should be secondary to the work itself. the orgilnal intent of the conformation ring was to judge working dogs on their outward appearence, then some poeple got competive and decided to ignore the work and focas on the look, this is where the split began, then the people who started breeding for the certain look began to dominate in that aspect, and shadowed out the working bred, they atrted to believe that they were supierior, yet its they they deviated from the the real breed.


i'm sorry, but i think you have no idea what a beauty show is.
yes, breeds were made to achieve certain goals such as herding, hunting, retrieveing, etc.
when people stopped hunting for a living these breeds we're drastically reduced, until a bunch of people with a lot of money decided to give life to the breed once again.

without the necessity for hunting dogs, this group of people decided to compete for beauty, creating different lines to "fill the eye" of type judges. this got a little out of hand and then they realized that these dogs still needed the skills which they're bred to have.

so..don't be so sure that skills are the only purpose of a dog. if had it been that way, we wouldn't have any working breed this days.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Sure don't look like Weims to me. If it was part Weim why would it's litter mates be chocolate labs?


ABSOLUTELY YES...there would still be chocolate littermates.

the pics you posted are the reason why this people bred weimaraners to labs. because they look alike so much. you need to have a trained eye to note the differences.

compare the two breeds...

this is what happens with two well reproduced breeds. you can tell the difference


[IMG]http://www.dickendall.com/clark7.jpg
http://www.bromhund.com/studs/images/framescamp.jpg

but when you have two badly reproduced breeds...it's hard to say


http://www.hundeauslaufgebiet.de/nino/images/nino_019.jpg
http://images.encarta.msn.com/xrefmedia/sharemed/targets/images/pho/t043/T043345A.jpg

now, let alone when they're puppies


http://www.fastdirectory.net/weims/Rider%20Lord%20looking%20at%20you.jpghttp://www.bbc.co.uk/holiday/images/traveltools/puppy_300x193.jpg

this two breeds combined:


http://www.downstay.com/gal_dir/puppy/03-21-05/007.jpghttp://www.silverbulletlabs.com/gracie.JPG

the so-called Silverlab!!!!!

[CagneyDog]

the pics you posted are the reason why this people bred weimaraners to labs. because they look alike so much. you need to have a trained eye to note the differences
Well could your trained eye please point the differances out to me.

How so? If it's bred with a Weim, wouldn't they all be silver.

[.sarah]

http://www.puppydogweb.com/breeders/pic_images/labs_tdehaan.jpg

http://www.silvervalleykennels.com/images/dog2med.jpg

Sure don't look like Weims to me. If it was part Weim why would it's litter mates be chocolate labs?
They can still produce correct colors. Just because it is not the right color, does not mean it is not part Weim. This is apparent in a lot of mixed breed dogs. A Weim/Vizsla cross could produce both Silver and Red dogs.

Whether or not they look like Weims is not it. A lot of them do, some don't. My point is, we do not know if they are part Weim or not, so they should not be bred until we can rule that out. And where did you get those pictures? Does that person show their dogs? Health test? Where did the dogs come from? A reputable breeder, or a puppy mill? You can't just pull images off of google and say that they're purebreds because their mom looks like it. I know of a few dogs who look purebred when they are mixed breeds. The Weim in her could be far enough back that they still produce Silver but look more like Labs.

[.sarah]

How so? If it's bred with a Weim, wouldn't they all be silver.
No, of course not.

[.sarah]

A quote from the website where you (CagneyDog) got the picture of mom and pups:



They started breeding labs after Marcie rescued their now stud dog Buddy from someone that had neglected him and tied him up on a short rope in a cement stall in a cow barn. He was 2 years old, untrained, not housebroke and on his way to the animal shelter when Marcie found him on this farm. To make a long story short, Buddy has come a long way and he and Marcie are practically inseparable.

They do not know this dog's lineage. He should have never be bred. So you can rule this breeder out as responsible.

[bckrazy]

This is so frickin OT, hehe, but I really really agree with you, Sarah! My friend has an amazing field-bred chocolate Lab named Tango, and I see incredible difference between her and just about every other Lab I see (which are either show-bred or BYB-bred). She's about half the size of my other friends championed show Lab (Im sorry - he looks unnaturally obese to me.) and her temperament is much, much different. Gonzo really despises 99% of the Labs he meets, because they are just so goofy and aloof, but he loves Tango, because she's just incredibly different and is actually very alert and less all over the place. I would personally never be able to handle a show or BYB-bred Lab, because I really value attentiveness and sensitivity in a dog (my BC spoils meh) but I'd love to have a Lab with Tango's personality. Several people I know have Labs who are sweet dogs, but just do not listen to a word their owners say. Tango actually has an Obedience title, too, which is not common with show-types as far as I've seen, and she qualified in every trial she's been in.

mehhhh, anyway... Cagney, I really don't see any "proof" in those pics. Honestly, it does not matter to me if they're purebreds or not. They aren't recognized. It's certaintly possible for a chocolate Lab bred to a Weim to produce "silver Labs" and "choco Labs". I think that if this "dilution" was actually that common in the breed, it WOULD at least be recognized by now. And, dilution of chocolate does not produce silver, it produces fawn or isabella, which is technically light chocolate. Dilution of black produces "blue". The AKC is not against accepting diluted colors, which is why fawn and blue Dobermans are accepted and shown. To me, the proof isn't there so I'm going to have to say it's not legit. Especially since all of the kennel links posted are to kennels that exclusively breed for silver coloring, which is a red flag.

[CagneyDog]

Mmmmk, I'm done with this thread.

[.sarah]

This is so frickin OT, hehe, but I really really agree with you, Sarah! My friend has an amazing field-bred chocolate Lab named Tango, and I see incredible difference between her and just about every other Lab I see (which are either show-bred or BYB-bred). She's about half the size of my other friends championed show Lab (Im sorry - he looks unnaturally obese to me.) and her temperament is much, much different. Gonzo really despises 99% of the Labs he meets, because they are just so goofy and aloof, but he loves Tango, because she's just incredibly different and is actually very alert and less all over the place. I would personally never be able to handle a show or BYB-bred Lab, because I really value attentiveness and sensitivity in a dog (my BC spoils meh) but I'd love to have a Lab with Tango's personality. Several people I know have Labs who are sweet dogs, but just do not listen to a word their owners say. Tango actually has an Obedience title, too, which is not common with show-types as far as I've seen, and she qualified in every trial she's been in.
My BYB Lab (Nova) has that temperment to a tee. Luka is pretty close, but is a little stubborn (though we are working on this). That is what a field Lab's temperment is supposed to be like. It's why I love them so much! I will get a well-bred Field Lab one day, but it will be when I live on my own and can run more trials with them. My dogs are field-bred as far as I know, judging by looks, drive (they loooove hunting), and temperment. But at the same time they don't really know what they're missing, and I can't fit frequent field trials into my life while in school, so they are fine for now :)

And I agree with what you just said, too! ;)

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Well could your trained eye please point the differances out to me.

How so? If it's bred with a Weim, wouldn't they all be silver.


i just did in page 6.

it wouldn't all be silver...in fact, you could get even a black one.

[IRescue452]

I would not support breeding a chihuahua and a great dane or other designer breeds. I am speaking of a coat colour. Breeding other markings that the breed comes in is not creating a new breed nor changing anything about the build or health of the dog. It doesn't change the type or the working ability. The ONLY thing that changes is the coat colour. It is unnatural for labradors to come in yellow, chocolate, and black. It is line breeding done by show breeders. It is natural for labradors to come in other colours. So why not line breed a b&t or a brindle or a dilute colour? The only logical reason to not accept these dogs is because of the colour, because color is the ONLY difference in existence. You can't logically bring in any other arguements. Anything other arguement is irrational.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

I would not support breeding a chihuahua and a great dane or other designer breeds. I am speaking of a coat colour. Breeding other markings that the breed comes in is not creating a new breed nor changing anything about the build or health of the dog. It doesn't change the type or the working ability. The ONLY thing that changes is the coat colour. It is unnatural for labradors to come in yellow, chocolate, and black. It is line breeding done by show breeders. It is natural for labradors to come in other colours. So why not line breed a b&t or a brindle or a dilute colour? The only logical reason to not accept these dogs is because of the colour, because color is the ONLY difference in existence. You can't logically bring in any other arguements. Anything other arguement is irrational.


WELL, THAT'S A POOR WAY TO END A DISCUSSION. HAVE YOU EVER STUDIED GENETICS?
i bet you haven't, as well as you haven't studied or devoted your life to the lab breed.

please, take a genetics book and learn about coat coloration. by the way, it is not naturall for labs to come in a variety of colors, otherwise this colors would be recognizad, as they are for the chihuahua or amstaff.

you're being kinda redundant. it is pretty obvious that color is the issue here, that's what silver lab's are about: a color trait introduced by a cross with another breed.
and, too bad for you, those dog's will never be recognized as purebreds by professional breeders around the world, not by the akc, not by the FCI, etc. do you really think you're smarter than all of the reputable breeders in the world? or that you're right and all those people are wrong? have you ever been to a lab specialty? have you ever bred silver labs from purebred chocolate labs to say they really exist? do you know why is it that they only exist in america?

give me a break!

don't be too clever about what you say you know.

[IRescue452]

You're being defensive and making yourself sound important, but did you bring any relevent evidence in with that last post? Stick to the subject.

[cloverfdx]

Torner Retrievers are those your dogs in the photos of "Correct Labradors"?

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Torner Retrievers are those your dogs in the photos of "Correct Labradors"?

which photos are you refering to?
if you're talking about the ones with the weimaraners, no...those are not my dogs. those are to show how breeder's and the AKC parent club of the breed think the ideal lab should be.


my dogs appear at the 2nd or 3rd page i believe, as attachments

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

You're being defensive and making yourself sound important, but did you bring any relevent evidence in with that last post? Stick to the subject.

i'm not being defensive. it's a lot different if you feel attacked with me asking you about your knowledge on genetics.
and what's your response? "STICK TO THE SUBJECT".

COME ON!!! LOL. if you knew anything at all about the matter, as you pretend us to believe, you'd have come with a better reply. LOL

sadly for you, i did bring a correction to your arguement:
the breed standard for the labrador retriever does not recognize a variety of colors (as you imply by saying these come naturally to labs), because labradors have never come in a variety of colors. Black an tan, brindle coloration, silver, blue, etc. are considered to be disqualification mismarks. it has been this way since the beginning of the breed, unlike what silver lab breeders intend to make us believe.

for a color to be natural, it would have to appear at least in the 25% of the general population.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

OK EVERYONE. JUST TO LET YOU KNOW (SINCE A LOT OF YOU ASK ME WHY BREEDERS AND MYSELF DON'T BELIEVE IN SILVER COLORATION). HERE'S THE INFORMATION ABOUT DILUTED COLORS:

Blue is actually diluted Black, Lilac is actually diluted Chocolate, and Fawn is
actually diluted Cinnamon.

SILVER IS NOT DILUTED CHOCOLATE. Silver is its own gene, as found in weimaraners.

as far as health...blue coloration (there are people selling blue and silver "labs") has a tendency to produce unique auto immune or coat problems.

here's a picture of coloration in shar peis (i couldn't find any other breed with black, blue, chocolate an lilac together in a single photo).

from left to right: black, blue (diluted black), lilac (diluted chocolate), chocolate.


http://www.shar-pei.com/group1.jpg

note the difference in coloration between the lilac (above) and the silver (below). besides, note that the black puppy (below) has different type (has a wider head and shorter muzzle than the "silver" and the blue ones).


http://www.velenterprises.com/index_files/novelcoatcolors.jpg

Here are other photos to compare

LILAC SHR PEI

http://www.shar-pei.com/BCJ9.jpg

BLUE SHAR PEI

http://www.shar-pei.com/levi512a.jpg

SILVER LAB

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images5/LABSilverToot5.jpg

(still don't see weimaraner in it?)

[IRescue452]

for a color to be natural, it would have to appear at least in the 25% of the general population.

A colour can't appear that often when only 3 colours are line bred by show breeders. If you put all colours of labs together and let them breed without human interference for enough time to overcome many years of line breeding you'd come across a pertenent palette of natural colouring. Of course this is never going to happen, nor should it. I'm not saying that these colors will be 25% of the population, I'm just saying they would come along and still be purebred and still be labradors.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

for a color to be natural, it would have to appear at least in the 25% of the general population.

A colour can't appear that often when only 3 colours are line bred by show breeders. If you put all colours of labs together and let them breed without human interference for enough time to overcome many years of line breeding you'd come across a pertenent palette of natural colouring. Of course this is never going to happen, nor should it. I'm not saying that these colors will be 25% of the population, I'm just saying they would come along and still be purebred and still be labradors.

well if we let every breed to reproduce without control and without following the breed standard....we wouldn't have any breed at all!!!

they certainly wouldn't still be labradors. a brindle, B&T, silver, blue, etc.. would be a dog which's parents are labradors. for a dog to be considered as a lab, it has to fit to the breed standard. i don't see why this is so hard to understand.

it seems like you don't understand the relation breeder-standard. you keep saying that breeders are the ones that don't like or don't accept this or that color. it's not the breeders. it's the breed standard. i've seen breeders go through hell because they had their hopes up for that planned litter in which there's a B&T or a brindle, which by the way, turns out to be show quality except for the color. so they have to neuter it and give it to a good home. i've seen them let out a tear or two during this events. it's heart breaking, but that's not the point. the point is that some people, a 100 yeras ago (moreless) created a breed to perform and look one specific way. they parent club has published a specific standard and it has to be followed, to preserve the type, soundness and skills of the labrador.

[Allecto]

Torner, you say silvers are more prone to certain auto-immune disorders... if true, that would make me more inclined to believe that at least a portion of silver labs are purebred genetic flukes. It seems like a crossbreed wouldn't be consistantly developing the same genetic defect, but maybe that's just me.


Also, if a color occurs in less than 25% of the population, it is unnatural?! Where the heck do you get that from, and how do you back it up? By that argument, all red-headed humans are fake and unnatural. I guess they must be crossed with orangutans or something :rolleyes:. Since none of us can prove they're not, I call for the sterilization of all red-heads!

You aren't an expert, so just ask me if I need to point out the differences and similarities:

http://www.kevinyoungphotography.com/international/images/Indonesia,%20Sumatra,%20Orangutan%20in%20Wild%201, %20Bukit%20Luang,%201998.jpghttp://www.posters.ws/images/381164/alyson_hannigan.jpg





"No good dog is a bad color" -- Max von Stephanitz

[Allecto]

it has to fit to the breed standard. i don't see why this is so hard to understand.


The Bible, the Qu'ran, the Vedas, the Torah, the Breed Standard... :rolleyes:

Maybe it is because IRescue and Cagney see a dog first, and some arbitrary ruler of worth based on conformation to a standard in order to promote one's kennel/line/business second? Just a guess.

[Suki Wingy]

Dogs are not humans, don't treat them like one.

[Husky_mom]

just what i was going to say, so it might not be the desirable color for show and breeding purposes but it doesnt make them less lab.

as if i get a husky with floppy ears or a blue eyed samoyed or a shepherd born with no tail, that doesnt make them less of their breed, just not suitable for breeding and/or showing, but still they are purebreds, even if some traits are genetic issues, as if people have two toned skin (i really dont know the correct name) that doesnt make them less human......

[IRescue452]

Sorry, I had to run to class. I couldn't finish. Anyway what I'm getting from all of this is that if white were the only shown color of human, then we wouldn't consider a black person human? They'd be worthless. Such as a lab that isn't the three show colours is a worthless creature that somehow isn't considered a labrador.

Husky mom: you are getting to extremes. I mean if a lab was born with no tail then by all means I'd say to neuter it. The colouring doesn't change the structure of the dog. One might not want to breed your husky or shepherd example, but I see nothing wrong with breeding white shepherds.

Suki: I know dogs aren't humans, they are objects we use to our working advantage. I don't quite get the illustration you were talking about either. I just don't get why can't we breed a silver labrador if thats what we want to use, for show or work. In fact I don't get kennel clubs at all. According to the AKC, there are many breeds that don't exist. The Hanoverian hound for one, does indeed exist, but according to AKC breeders there is no such dog. And a labrador that's silver in colour is not a dog. Strange lot of people they are indeed.

[Suki Wingy]

Dogs are not humans.
I am technically a mutt, but I'm also a human! Same way horses who are crossbred regularly compete, they are accepted in their sport, other than conformation. If you breed a dog for show and you get a silver, I say spay it and give it a good home. With all the overpopulation of dogs though, I don't believe in breeding dogs just for pets. If you wanted a pet only you could go to the shelter.
That is my view and I am done with this thread.

[cali]

it has to fit to the breed standard. i don't see why this is so hard to understand.


why. WHO says that they must fit the breed stardard? you? the people who make their living with beauty contests? why? just cuz they say so? and why should I listen to them or you? why are only you guys correct and the people with dogs that can actually DO the work wrong? please enlighten me as to why my whippet built, flop eared, extra fine boned border collie cant herd? (and she can by the way, she was dropped on sheep after 5 years of city living and right off the bat was herding better then the expeirenced dogs) and please explain how conformation has imporoved the bearded collie, and wehn people see then bouncing and barking at sheep the response is "oh thats how they are supposed to herd" thats odd because actually beardies were originally more like a wire coated BC and worked like BCs, in fact the 2 breeds used to be freely interbred.

[Husky_mom]

dont get me wrong i just gave examples that dont make a breed less breed, not that they should be bred, of course not, spay/neuter, but with color as in shepherds it took a while to get them accepted, they where present but not suitable for show and maybe silver labs will get their place as they had before as a variation of "chocolates", and as cali mentioned beauty contest..... in humans it doesnt mean we "need" to look like them, it just a "standard" for "beauty" that some people made and try to keep that way, that doesnt mean other people who are different are not pretty or human......

[Allecto]

Dogs are not humans, don't treat them like one.
He made an assertion about recessive genetics and 'nature'. I simply extended it. That is all.

[Crazy-Cat-Lover]

If silver labradors were proven to be purebred would you breed them? You are acting the same way breeders did when chocolate labradors were first bred. :rolleyes:

[dab_20]

well i dont see the problem. if they were bred for hunting what does there color matter?? i think they are too strict on colors for alot of breeds.

my friends mom told my my cocker puppy coulden't be shown because he has white markings on his black back. who cares!!

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Torner, you say silvers are more prone to certain auto-immune disorders... if true, that would make me more inclined to believe that at least a portion of silver labs are purebred genetic flukes. It seems like a crossbreed wouldn't be consistantly developing the same genetic defect, but maybe that's just me.

i didn't say silvers are propense to develop this diseases. i said BLUE colored dogs are. of course they wouldn't develop deseases due to the variety of genetic code from different breeds crosses.




Also, if a color occurs in less than 25% of the population, it is unnatural?! Where the heck do you get that from, and how do you back it up? By that argument, all red-headed humans are fake and unnatural. I guess they must be crossed with orangutans or something :rolleyes:. Since none of us can prove they're not, I call for the sterilization of all red-heads!

that kind of sarcasm and comparissons are just the last resource for people who don't have anything to say. DOGS ARE NOT EQUAL TO HUMAS. they can be part of the family and loved pets, but not humas.

dog population and human population are different. i'm not talking about labs as a species, but as breed. it's stupid to say that red headed humans are not humans!!!!
i'll correct your example: if both your parents, and your grand parents, and 20 generations before you are white skined, and have blonde hair, wouldn't it be unnatural to your family line if you were borned black?????
by your response, i do think you could be part orangutan.


You aren't an expert, so just ask me if I need to point out the differences and similarities.

oh..and you are? lol. at least i'm geeting my masters degree on coat color genetics.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Sorry, I had to run to class. I couldn't finish. Anyway what I'm getting from all of this is that if white were the only shown color of human, then we wouldn't consider a black person human? They'd be worthless. Such as a lab that isn't the three show colours is a worthless creature that somehow isn't considered a labrador.

Suki: I know dogs aren't humans, they are objects we use to our working advantage. I don't quite get the illustration you were talking about either. I just don't get why can't we breed a silver labrador if thats what we want to use, for show or work. In fact I don't get kennel clubs at all. According to the AKC, there are many breeds that don't exist. The Hanoverian hound for one, does indeed exist, but according to AKC breeders there is no such dog. And a labrador that's silver in colour is not a dog. Strange lot of people they are indeed.


no one is saying they're worthless. don't get so passionated about it.

please, READ and UNDERSTAND. your example of the hanoverian hound is silly. the AKC doesn't say that is not a breed, it just doesn't recognize it.
labradoodles is a new trend breed as well....just don't recognized by experts and organisms around the world.

you really should stop blaming all to breeders, it's not good for you. see the bigger picture! there are parent clubs to the breed who dictate what a lab should look like.

[Crazy-Cat-Lover]

Geez! Just leave it alone! No matter what you say Torner, people arent going to stop breeding/buying Silver Labradors! :o

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

why. WHO says that they must fit the breed stardard?.

ALL KENNEL CLUBS IN THE WORLD!!!!! COME ON.


and why should I listen to them or you?
i don't recall ever telling you who to listen to. i just gave my point of veiw, and i'm trying to do something about according to where i stand on silverlabs.


why are only you guys correct and the people with dogs that can actually DO the work wrong?
i've never seen a silverlab doing their job. no one is saying that if it's not a black, or yellow or chocolate lab, it can't do the work. even mutts can do the work.


please enlighten me as to why my whippet built, flop eared, extra fine boned border collie cant herd?
where the heck did you get that? noone said anything about dogs and their retrieving skills. if you want a herding dog, pick any dog with the skills for it.


and please explain how conformation has imporoved the bearded collie, and wehn people see then bouncing and barking at sheep the response is "oh thats how they are supposed to herd" thats odd because actually beardies were originally more like a wire coated BC and worked like BCs, in fact the 2 breeds used to be freely interbred.

i wouldn't know about bearded collies. sorry.
i do know about recognized colors in labs. we're talking about labs remember?

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Geez! Just leave it alone! No matter what you say Torner, people arent going to stop breeding/buying Silver Labradors! :o


NICE. you sound just like a 3 year old.

how would you know that? if people were educated and determined, of course it would stop.

i agree with Suki. if you one just a pet dog, adopt one from the shelter.
if you want to show (in beauty) don't buy a silver lab. it's that easy.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

Geez! Just leave it alone! No matter what you say Torner, people arent going to stop breeding/buying Silver Labradors! :o


NICE. you sound just like a 3 year old.

how would you know that? if people were educated and determined, of course it would stop.

i agree with Suki. if you want just a pet dog, adopt one from the shelter.
if you want to show (in beauty) don't buy a silver lab. it's that easy.

[cali]

obviously we are talking about labs, I am relating the same logic to breeds I am far more familer with.

and by the way. not all the kennel clubs in the world say that, only the conformation clubs say this. big difference.

you are by the way the very first coformation person I have EVER heard admit that dog shows are beauty contests, I was in shock :eek: I most certainly agree dog shows ARE beautys contests, but well most conformation people deny it lol

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

If silver labradors were proven to be purebred would you breed them? You are acting the same way breeders did when chocolate labradors were first bred. :rolleyes:


OK. IF THEY'RE PROVEN TO BE PUREBRED LABS I WOULD OF COURSE.
the thing is they're not and come from doubtful kennels. not one reputable breeder in the world breeds silver. that's a warning.

chocolates went through the same but got accepted because they started to pop all over the world, not just in the US in a few of this doubtful kennels.

[Lady's Human]

Breed standard:

THis is why most working German Shepherds are from German lineage. the AKC standard dogs had the brains bred out of them to fit some artificial conformation appearance.

I'm sorry, I disagree with appearance the sole breed standard. A dog should look like the breed, AND be able to perform in whatever activity they were bred for.

[TORNER RETRIEVERS]

obviously we are talking about labs, I am relating the same logic to breeds I am far more familer with.

and by the way. not all the kennel clubs in the world say that, only the conformation clubs say this. big difference.

you are by the way the very first coformation person I have EVER heard admit that dog shows are beauty contests, I was in shock :eek: I most certainly agree dog shows ARE beautys contests, but well most conformation people deny it lol

i don't think they relate as well to the silverlab controversy, since silverlab are not bred to improve retrieveing skills.

i asumed you knew i was tlaking about conformation kennel clubs.

well, at least as far as i know, when it's an all breed or specialty that does not ask for hunting tests to win, it is a beauty show.

[Crazy-Cat-Lover]

NICE. you sound just like a 3 year old.

how would you know that? if people were educated and determined, of course it would stop.

Well excuse me for expressing my feelings on this subject. The world has been educated about spaying/neutering too, yet we have thousands of dogs that die every year in shelters. People are going to keep breeding these dogs because people want them. Alot of silver lab breeders are 100% positive their dogs are purebred, not crossed with a Weimaraner in any which way. They will not stop because their puppies sell like hot cakes. For instance, one of the websites I visited had two litters of silver lab puppies. EVERY last one of them was sold instantly. People will always love labs and when they see this so called *rare* color, they want one.

Have people stopped breeding one pound Chihuahuas? Knowing that these dogs are born premature and have serious health problems? I personally think silver labs are gorgeous and if they can be registered with the AKC as purebred labs and they have the same working ability as the other colors, they should be bred.

Quote from a breeder...

"Everything written about the Silver Labs is based upon speculation. One statement that is commonly made is that there had to have been a Weimeraner introduced into the bloodlines to produce the silver color. This statement has been proven false. UC Berkley studied the genetic makeup of the Silver Lab against that of the Weimeraner. Researchers concluded that it was not the same."

"If a person should come upon one of the remaining "Silver Lab Hate sites" on the net and develops ANY doubts about Silver Labs, that person should go directly to AKC and ask the pertinent question to learn the facts."

[CagneyDog]

i don't recall ever telling you who to listen to. i just gave my point of veiw, and i'm trying to do something about according to where i stand on silverlabs.

Well if your just giving your "opionin" then i'll point out that we new your opionin from the VERY first post. There is no need to explain it again.

[dab_20]

the thing is they're not and come from doubtful kennels. not one reputable breeder in the world breeds silver. that's a warning

how do you know that for sure? maybe there is some people who breed them and do it just as responsibly as other breeders. maybe they think silvers are beautiful and hope they become part of the AKC or something. just saying.

[.sarah]

Does anyone else want this thread closed? We're not getting anywhere. I'll gladly PM Karen and ask her to close it.

[cane_corso_mom]

I'd like this thread closed too. We're not egtting anywhere, just fightining.It's ridiculous :rolleyes:

[cali]

I too would like it closed, were are 2 groups with entirly different veiws and fighting about it is not going to get anywhere neither groups intend to switch sides.

[.sarah]

Ok, I'm PMing Karen :)

[Karen]

I am closing this thread, as I think everything that needs to be said has been said.