lhasa, shih-tzu, mixed??

[emilysgk]

Guess the dog breed.... Here is Roxie, she is about 3yrs old. Question is, is she a shih tzu... lhasa, mixed? This is the only picture I have available of her right now, just after a very short hair cut her previous owner gave her. I want to grow her out some more. Anyways... Her face, esp nose, says shih-tzu to me, but the rest of her im not sure about. Her size reminds me of a lhaso, she is quite large to be a shih-tzu if you ask me. She has a bit of a sway back, her hind end is slightly higher than her front. My mother had two lhasa's and she looks just like them, but im just not sure about her nose.....

Give me your best guess!
Emily

[Giselle]

Hey there, I see no Lhasa in her, but the first breeds that shot at me were Pekingese / Shih Tzu. I myself am owned by a Pekingese (probably TibbieX) and I can definitely see the Peke's wide-set jaw and muzzle and I can see a hint of a few wrinkles. Plus, the higher-set ears and rectangular head shape are both characteristics of the Peke. The eyes, however, are slightly too narrow, which could easily attributed to the Shih Tzu. His quirky underbite screams Pekingese (my dog has the same terrible underbite). Her sway back is a feature that seems to be predominant among Tzus and Pekes, as well, albeit poorly bred ones ;) Do you have a body picture of her? Pekes, even the most non-Peke-y ones, have a distinct "pear shape" where the front end is heavier than the back end. I'm planning to show Pekes so I can definitely help in you this arena ;)

Edit: Here's a pic of my Peke for comparison
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/LSophie/The%20Dogs/IMG_2287.jpg

[emilysgk]

I see her body shape in the peke. I took some pics of her, not great, but more helpful. I also decided to get a measurement, she is 12in at the shoulder, 13in at the hip and about 18-19in from neick to tail. She is good sized really. Pretty hefty as far as weight, but I dont own a scale.

The only bit I know of her breed is what little my friend knows. She got her from some girl we knew from back in school, I guess she (my friend) seen her at this persons home, covered in matts and sores and in general poor health. She offered the girl $50 if she would let her take the dog, and she let her take the dog. All she knew is that she was supposed to be pure breed, and the girl said she just never got her papers. She didnt ask any questions, she just wanted to get the dog out of there. She had to have vet care to get back to health, and has been with my friend since. She said she was a Lhasa... but its truely up in the air.

Her breed really dont matter, its just out of curiosity of what she really is.

Just wanted to add that her underbite is very severe, to the degree that I really think its a defect, she has a min of half inch I would say between her teeth on bottom and the one on top. Her jaw really sticks out there.

Emily

[Giselle]

Ooh, well, now that I see her body pictures, she definitely looks Lhasa. My breeder handled Lhasas from time to time but I never paid much attention to them. Ironic, huh? LOL. I never really got a chance to examine their heads/noses, so I can't tell you exactly what a Lhasa's nose should look like under all that hair. However, there could still be a slight chance that she is part Pekingese because I doubt Lhasas are supposed to have those wrinkles and underbite, whereas both are unique characteristics of the Peke. Plus, if I'm not imagining things, it looks like there's a slight slant from her bottom jaw/chin backwards to her forehead, like this ---> " / ". Is there? :p

As for measurements, my Peke is grossly over the standardized height and weight and weighs in at a hefty 19-20 pounds and stands at 10" or so at the withers. I haven't measured in a long time, but that's what I think his measurements are. Lhasas stand at a taller height, so it would make sense that your pup stands at 12-13". I haven't measured Lucky's length in awhile, but both Pekes and Lhasas are much longer than they are tall. The underbite is definitely either a defect or a Peke characteristic. I'll take a picture for you tomorrow, but Lucky's lower jaw extends at least a 1/2" forward and his front teeth sit on his gums. I hope this helps you :)

[emilysgk]

So Roxie was in a good mood and I took even more pictures. Not that more are needed for the subject....but she is still brand new and I have to show her off to someone! LOL I promise this will be it for her pics, in this thread at least. ;)

Cant wait for her coat to grow out more too. Thinking I need to trim up her feet now though, looking a bit shaggy I suppose. My friend said its not possible to grow her out at all because of matting. She said she brushed her daily and still couldnt. I doubt that she did (I know her..LOL) I suppose it could be that she didnt know how to brush her properly either..... But I doubt it. She had some in her feet already when I got her, real small luckily and I got them out. Yeah im full of talk thats way off topic.

About the nose slant thing...Im not sure I understood what you meant. Did you mean like an upturned nose...or just the bottom of her mouth coming up at an angle? LOL Her teeth/jaw sounds just like yours, the bottom comes way out and the top sits in its own separate place compared to a normal jaw. As far as I know and can tell, and true Lhasa should have a slightly longer nose, and not have the offset jaw. So I will stop rambling now. Funny no one else replied to the post either?.....

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b273/emilysgk/pets/roxiec.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b273/emilysgk/pets/roxiec3.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b273/emilysgk/pets/roxiec2.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b273/emilysgk/pets/roxiec4.jpg

[Giselle]

LOL. Go ahead! As long as it's conducive to dogs/animals, ramble all you want! We're all crazy like that ;)

A tip for the toesies: Trim the hair in between the pads so that hair does not stick out between the individual toes. You can leave the tops of the feet untouched if you like that more show-y look. By the way, her feet are definitely Lhasa! With proper supplement and weekly brushings, you should bring her coat back to pretty good shape. However, shaving a dog at any point in its life can alter the coat for a prolonged period of time and you'll probably have to wait until she starts blowing coat for some serious coat length.

By the nose slant thing, I meant to say that Pekes are supposed to have a gentle sloping from the chin to the top of the forehead:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/LSophie/IMG_4137.jpg
You see there's a slight "\" shape starting from the chin that slopes gently backward to the forehead because the muzzle extends further than the nose itself. Lhasas, however, do not have this characteristic. If you could get a profile of your girl, that'd help, too, but it's pretty easy to spot ;)

Haha, I'm going edit-crazy today! Anyways, just wanted to add that my dog "smiles" the same way

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v474/LSophie/The%20Dogs/IMG_1180.jpg
Gotta love those underbites!

[emilysgk]

I see what your talking about now, she has that slightly. I tried pics...she didnt cooperate real well, here they are:

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b273/emilysgk/pets/100_0956.jpg

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b273/emilysgk/pets/100_0954.jpg

I will see about the trimming between the toes. She needs to be done anyways, as she didnt trim between her pads and she has quite a bit of length on the bottoms of her feet. As far as her coat and shaving it, she has kept her that way for the last 2 yrs. Always shaves her down. She wasnt the type to take the time to groom her properly. I dont want a full coat necessarily, I believe that would be a bit much for me even, but deffinatly some more. I will make up my mind as she grows out. I like her fluffy feet for now, makes her pretty cute. I will never forget the shih tzu we had yrs ago, my mom wanted him so bad, his name was Nugget (cant remember how he got such a silly name!) But he went out once and took a run back in the field...he had to be completely shaved, head to toe, it wasnt very pretty. LOL Nothing on any part could be save, not even his ears. (he came back covered in burs...) See I wasnt sure if the shih tzu had the same sort of nose thing going, or if theres is simply smooshed in. Its been awhile and I cant remember now.

Im going to dig up some pics of a dog I had a couple years back, his name was Melvin. I will be posting him for a guess the breed, he was really cute and not cute at the same time. I know what he was, but not sure if anyone will get it or not. So look for that one in the next day or so. Hopefully I get to it tonight, not sure just yet if I will though. He developd some agressive behavior and major dominance issues, and I had 3 young kids with a 4th on the way...So I couldnt keep him any longer. I gave him to a rescue, knowing full well with his behavior issues I didnt want him to get in the wrong hands. He went and was fostered with a trainer for quite some time, and they still had a hard time getting him under control. So again im off topic. LOL

So there is her profile. I dont know, to me she looks pretty much all Lhasa accept her face, maybe it was just some really poor breeding?

[Giselle]

Now that's peculiar! Your pup has a heckova better Peke face than mine does, LOL. The nose is definitely not Lhasa now that I see her profile. It could be possible that she is all Lhasa and either comes from some SERIOUSLY bad breeding or, somewhere along the line, one of her ancestors was part Peke. Genetics is not my particular field of interest at the moment, but the muzzle/nose part of the Peke seems to be predominant in mixed breed dogs. Tzus, on the other hand, aren't supposed to have protruding lower lips/chins nor wrinkles. It would seem that if she was a Tzu/Lhasa mix, she'd have a longer nose and no sign of wrinkles. Hehe, it could just be my breed bias popping up, but I wouldn't be surprised if her grandmother was part Peke ;)

I'm usually not one for shaving coats since I love a good grooming session and I adore dogs in show coat, but I can barely keep up with my dog's coat and, as you can see, it isn't very long. When he was a puppy, I kept waiting and waiting for the edges of his coat to reach the floor and I was bitterly disappointed when it didnt. The only part that came close was his wonderfully plumed tail, which I succumbed into clipping after a few years, LOL. I can completely sympathize. I think her fluffy feet make her so much more adorable, as well! It's also a clear trademark of the Lhasa breed, and it's cute as heck!

[emilysgk]

Well you seen Melvin in the guess the breed post..... Thats how back improper breeding can get. In this ladies case, all the dogs were pure in that they never had anything else mixed in, she just kept what she did and breed whatever was ready. :( So they were getting bad. Its sad because a few of her older dogs, males for the most part, were absolutely beatiful. She could have good dogs. Same for her bostons she had, there were some perfect ones left, but many that were not. She had every size range you could imagine from too big, to too small, thats pretty bad for a breed that has more than one size in the first place. She kept breeding her smaller together...people like little dogs. She had some beautiful brindle bostons, but it got to the point that she never got black and white ones in the litters anymore.... The pugs were good at least. The Rotts never breed when I was there, they were getting a bit old if you ask me. Her Frenchies wouldnt either, she tried insemination and that didnt work either. I got several dogs out of there. I convinced her to let rescues take them, some even paid for the dogs! So they could make her let them go. There was a blind one, a deaf one, and one with pretty advanced heartworm, who also had a pyometra so bad that by time I got hewr to the vet her uterus had burst!! Ugh, it was horrible, I worked hard and rarely got paid. I was there for the dogs. I became an intermediate vet pretty much. I took care of all the sick ones, a few I couldnt save. I tried my hardest though. They used a farm vet, so they rarely kept an animal, you take all there injections and such home with you and administer it all yourself. Oh I could go on and on with stories. I wish I could get back in there some how so I could take my camera with me and get the place shut down. Its not her fault, and I would hate to do it to her. She has severe mental problems, schitzo and all, even was put away once while I was there. Her husband is a druggie who dont care what goes on and leaves it up to her to run the place. They hire young punks who use them for money, and place to stay and to support there own habits. A lot of them dont care what goes on with the dogs.....

I'll stop now. I can get carried away talking about that place. But I know first hand what careless breeding can create.