New Dog Owner :)

[SnoGrl]

Hi all,

My husband and I are new to owning our very own pet. We live in a 2 bed/2full bath duplex with a nice deck and small backyard. We just (on Monday) picked up our newest family member, Sadie. We got her from the Humane SOciety, so we know nothing is "for sure" with her...but they "think" she is an English Spaniel at 10-12 weeks of age. We are taking her to the vet on Wednesday to get the low-down on her.

Ok, So my concern/problem. We have decided we are going to crate train Sadie. We have a bit of a developing problem. We started out by "showing" her how to get in the crate. She followed us ONLY if we were partially in the cage with her at the time. Then we decided that was silly and traded our bodies, for her food and water dish in the crate. Last nite, after a quick trip over to meet Nana & PawPa (my parents), she pretty much refused to go into the crate. We had to "trick" her by putting a treat in the crate towards the back on her pillow. That just barely worked after my husband tried to show her it was ok to go in. This morning before we left for work, she resisted heading for the crate again. We gave her a treat while she sat outside the cage, then we laid the other half in her kennel. She "started" in for the goodie but realized it might be a trick and backed off. We had to encourage/coerce her to continue on in. We are worried that by forcing her into the crate, that she will not think of it as a safe haven, as her room.

Have we started off wrong already? We wonder if it has anything to do with the fact she was in the cold humane society cage for a week without getting out except when we came over. We work all day and are still figuring out a schedule that will suit all of us. We are going home at lunch to let her out b/c 4-5 hours is the max she can hold it.

But tell us, how do we teach her that the crate isn't a bad thing? Are we doing something wrong? Is it bad to force her in? Is it bad to trick her with food & water or a treat? We have done so much research on how to train our puppy...but we can't find any answers for this potential problem. She has to be crated for her own safety and for our carpet's safety!

Please advise these new puppy owners!

Thank you...

[Gio]

I'm afraid I can't give you any advice on crate training, I'm sure that a lot of the others will be able to advise you on that. I just wanted to welcome you one the board!

[zippy-kat]

I, too, know nothing about crate training. Just wanted to welcome you to the board. Congrats on the new pup!!


This sounds like a good question for Carrie. Where art thou Carrie? lol :D

[RachelJ]

Thank you for adopting your puppy from a shelter and thank you for realizing that a puppy cannot be expected to *hold it* for very long. A good guideline is as many hours as months the puppy is old, but even that is pushing it a little. The process of getting a puppy used to a crate is a slow process and obviously you have been thrust into the situation quite quickly. I'm going to leave the advice for this area to those of us who have had more experience in this than I have had. I hope that when you are at home, Sadie does not have to be in her crate, except for bedtime. Being in there all day long, she is going to need a lot of mental and physical exercise at other times. I would like to recommend a book called Good Owners, Great Dogs by Brian Kilcommons and Sarah Wilson. I know they also have a website which I will try to locate for you. Good luck and thanks for joining us here at Pet Talk.

I found it: GreatPets.com

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: RachelJ ]

[carrie]

Sorry, I am going to be of no use on this one either. I do not believe in crate training dogs unless all other paths have been tried to control an undesirable behaviour. As the dog in question is a baby the only treatment needed is time, good handling and sensitive training. I have never resorted to using a crate yet (no doubt the day will come!) A warm comfortable bed and interesting toys and some paper for a safegaurd will grow a happier and better adjusted puppy.

This is my personal opinion and many here disagree with it, so, as I said, no help at all!

[SnoGrl]

Why is crate training bad (asked out of ignorance!)? We are planning to use her as a hunting dog. We will begin that training as soon as her little tummy heals up :) What are other avenues? We aren't home during the day and would prefer she not stay in the garage all day (no sunlight). There is so much wood she could destroy in every other room. We thought we were being so cautious about our duplex by crating her :)

Please advise!

Jill


Originally posted by carrie:
<STRONG>Sorry, I am going to be of no use on this one either. I do not believe in crate training dogs unless all other paths have been tried to control an undesirable behaviour. As the dog in question is a baby the only treatment needed is time, good handling and sensitive training. I have never resorted to using a crate yet (no doubt the day will come!) A warm comfortable bed and interesting toys and some paper for a safegaurd will grow a happier and better adjusted puppy.

This is my personal opinion and many here disagree with it, so, as I said, no help at all!</STRONG>

[Snowy's Mommy]

Hi Jill,

Welcome to the board!

I did not and would not put Snowy in a crate because I feel that it is cruel and dogs need to have stimulation during the day....having them sit in the crate all day is mean.......having them get used to it as a means of relaxation to go to sleep at night is different, because that is their "safe place".

Is there anyway that you could cover some of the furniture while you are both at work?

It's good that you are asking these questions and being responsible about obtaining knowledge before going forward--don't be afraid to ask questions!

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: Snowy's Mommy ]

[3-greys-and-a-mutt]

My husband and I crate two out of our four dogs, and I have no problem with it. I don't want to do it forever, but the two that I crate are safer in their crates than out of them, I feel. First, your dog should not wear his collar in the crate, as he may get his tags stuck between the bars, and strangle himself.
As for getting him in the crate, you may have to just pick him up and set him inside, until he gets used to it, and close the door right behind him. (We have 3 greyhounds, all of whom were crate-raised, and they go right in without a fuss. Our little Pup, who we found when she was about 6 months old, threw a fit about going into her crate, so we had to place her in it.) Boo and Pup now both run to their crates when we say 'kennel up!' We crate because we have 4 young dogs, and don't want the pack mentality to take over when they are home alone. When Boo and Pup are older and calmer (haha) we plan to leave them uncrated, but separate the dogs into different parts of the house using baby gates.

[carrie]

I don't feel that leaving a puppy in a cage for 4 hours twice a day is an acceptable way to bring it up. If you don't have the time for a puppy - don't get a puppy. If you have problems with having a puppy in the house - don't get a puppy.
Again this is my opinion, I am not trying to pick a fight or upset anyone, it is just how I feel.

[KYS]

Originally posted by SnoGrl:
Why is crate training bad (asked out of ignorance!)? &gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;

(Warning this is going to be long:
SnoGrl,
Crate training is not bad as long as it is not abused. Some people use the crate
to jail a dog instead of training, or
in liu of spending time with their pet.
Only 2 of my dogs is partially crate trained.
Getting a dog use to a crate is a very good idea.
In an emergency, such as earthquake, fires etc., overnight stay at vets, flying,
traveling in a car. These are just a handfull of reasons to get your dog use to a crate.
Dogs are den animals, so once they get use to it they should actually like their crate.
Try placing the crate where you wish it to remain, in a draft free place near the center of your household activity.
Leave the door open but put the dogs toys inside.
Allow the dog to explore it's crate freely.
Once the dog is comfortable, moving in and out of the crate at will, begin confining it in the crate for short periods of 15 minutes,
gradually increasing the time to 3-4 hours,
once a day.
You can even feed the dog all it's meals inside the crate at first.
Never use the crate as a punishment, or
in lieu of training or because you just
don't have time for the dog.
I personally do not believe in crating a dog more than 4 hours a day.
I do not crate my dogs, but I do have crates on each side of my bed with the door open.
I have been repremanded by others for not fully crate training my dogs etc. or
not crating them when they are in my car.
They way I look at it, everyone's living situation is different. I choose not to crate my dogs, but I do try to get them use to the crate. Others swear by crate training.
You should be able to find information on
crating on some of the rescue shelters
web sites or training sights, or you local
book store.

[Pam]

Bella is crate trained as two of our other four poodles were. I think you will find that most breeders recommend this, especially for making housebreaking easier. Most puppies will not soil their crate. This helps them "hold it" a little longer, but as Rachel said they can usually only hold it for an hour for each month old they are (that sounds confusing....what I'm trying to say is 2 months old, 2 hours, 3 months old, 3 hours, etc). Bella's breeder gave us lots of information about housebreaking and crate training and this was set forth in our info.

No, crates are never to be used for punishment or for extended periods of time. Bella goes in quite willingly and is so used to our morning routine that when she sees the kitchen blinds being closed (the last thing we do before leaving) she walks right in. I work part time so she is not in there very long at all. I am sure she mostly sleeps while I'm away, just like she would do if I was home (she usually naps after breakfast and a morning run in the yard even on the weekends).

I don't plan on keeping this up indefinitely but probably for a couple of more months until I can be sure my house won't be in shreds when I return. :D

[carrie]

KYS, I'm really sorry to disagree, with you especially, you give advice and support from the heart, are kind, loving and one of the best kind of dog people there is. But....!

To compare a cage to a den is very confusing to me. In the wild a puppy will have litter mates and a babysitter. By the time a babysitter is needed the pup will be out of the den and spend most of his awake time playing and exploring, only retreating to the den when danger threatens. On fine days most sleep will also be outside of the den. Before a babysitter is needed the pup will have the almost constant attention of his mother and the constant companionship of his litter mates. The den always has a roof and solid walls. This is (my original opinion, again!) behaviour "specialists" looking at owning a dog in the easiest way possible for owners with little real thought or consideration.
In an emergency such as a fire in the home when you are not there how is the dog being shut in a cage going to help it or keep it safe? Dogs in this situation are trapped, not helped. In an earthquake things for the dog, if anything, get even worse! There is so much research now that few people can argue the fact that animals, including dogs, know when an earthquake is imminent. To put a dog in a cage, let it fret for three hours knowing that it is trapped and what is coming rather than it fretting and letting it choose it's own best place to go for survival doesn't sound like a great idea to me.
At the vets your average dog that is crate trained does not settle down to sleep and feel safe because it is used to being in a cage. It is still anxious and worried about the fact that almost every time it goes to the vet it means something unpleasant is going to happen it.
Travelling in a car should be second nature to any dog that has a car in the family. Putting a cage in the back of the car to protect the dog has nothing to do with the crate in the house. If introduced even late in life to a dog that enjoys car travel the cage has no adverse effects at all. If you have a dog that you think fears the cage in the car, it doesn't. It is the car that is the problem.
Air travel is not going to be less stressful for a dog used to a crate. The only way to get a dog used to this kind of travel is to do it a lot from when the dog is young.
Putting the crate in the centre of household activity is another way to disprove the "den" theory. Dens are the place to go when you are in danger or need some peace. If your den is constantly surrounded by people rushing around, kids playing and other animals going past you move dens!
Comparing a cage to a den is very popular and some trainers would have you believe it is the only way to treat a dog like a dog should be treated. I don't think so. I think this is what a lot of people want to hear as it ties in their desire to own a puupy with the lifestyle they live. It is a quick fix, some dogs will cope. My question is should they have to?

[Corinna]

Not to make any one angry but I beleive in crate trainning. Merlin was started the day we brought him home at 10 weeks old ,We had some one home all day though. We made it his bedroom and his safe place. When he doesn't want to be bothered he goes there,and no one does.At first we just threw his toys in to make it a happy place.Then we only close it for about 5 mintues,we did this for about 20 mintues. Then at that night he went in very well. Please thought do remember it is a safe place but not a punishment place. Also puppies do need to go out a lot, we took him out every 2 hours and told him to do his business. They catch on very fast. Good luck.
PS Merlin is a English Springer Spaneil ! and he says welcome!

[Daisy's Mom]

Hi SnoGirl, and welcome to Pet Talk! Congratulations on adopting your new pup! She sounds adorable.

We crate trained Daisy and I never felt cruel doing it. I think it was the right decision. We were home almost all the time, but if we went somewhere, she went into the crate with toys and a bed. She also slept in there. Carrie, sorry to disagree, but Daisy's behaviorist said it is like a den to her. It's their private get-away. They will not go to the bathroom there because they know they have to sleep there. If Sadie seems to not like going in her crate, it may be because of the shelter. Try putting a kong in there with her to distract her, and NEVER use the crate as a punishment. She will grow to like going in there. Good luck with your new pup, and keep us updated on how she is doing!

[carrie]

I can not say often enough a crate and a den are not the same!

If people are at home and have been persuaded to see a crate this way then fair enough - if you had a basket, rug on the floor or a piece of foam that was the dog's place it would serve the same purpose.
You are both saying that you were at home. The "den" is a safe place for puppies that have an adult, or litter mates for company.
The original question is asking if it's OK to put a pup in a cage for up to 4 hours and leave it every day in the belief that the pup is happy and secure in it's "den".
Again, I have to say, I think not.

[Pam]

One last comment about crate training as it relates to housebreaking. My son's ex-wife had a male pekingese who was over 2 years old when they were married. She had not been successful in training this pup. He had lots of "mistakes" whether she was home or not. After she and my son were married I suggested they take our old crate that was no longer being used. They began using the crate during the day when they were at work. Presto! In no time at all this dog was not making mistakes in the house any more and this was accomplished on a dog that was far from the puppy stage. I, too, firmly believe that crates have their function. Sorry, Carrie, you know I hold you in very high regard but we differ here a bit. :)

[KYS]

Carrie, Please, never be sorry for dissagreeing with me or anybody.
Everyone's opinion is most important
and I very much value yours. :)

I quoted the den information straight from
a section in my book on crate training.
As for emergency:
I meant after the fact, in case an
animal had to be displaced.
In a dissaster situations, your animals might
have to be transported by crate and temporarly kept in one.
Many of the rescue groups, each each year
request donations of crates during a dissaster for transporting animals.

A dog can very much enjoy a car ride,
but put a dog in a closed in crate,
it can suffer sever anxiety, if it is not
accustomed to a crate.
(I have such a dog.)
As for crates, many behavior/trainers, books, and humane societies now seem to recommend some type of crate training today.
Since I am not into crate training,
I would be happy to supply you with an e-mail list I am on that a few good trainers and reputable rescue people are on that
can explain the do's and don't to crate training, much better than I can.
There is also a web site called Pet Care Forum. IF you find their library, look up crate training. It lists crate education from known humane rescue groups and also trainers.
Crate training is not my thing, but It might
be quite usefull for others if not abused.

[lizbud]

Hi Snogrl,
Welcome to Pet Talk!!!

I read your first post but did not reply b/c
i did not know what to say exactly to help
you .i have a big dog who was also a big pup
and chewed up any thing in sight when i went
to work ..Also when i was there but asleep..
i got a crate, read all the in info about
Crate Training, etc..but with me it was a
total failure..
First. the crate i purchased 3 weeks before
assembling it and introducing it to him
turned out to be too small and actually
collapsed on me as i tried to get him to
go inside it & check it out..
I know of many people that swear by the
Crate as a good solution to leaving a young
pup or introducting an older dog to the
house routine..i however never really felt
it was any thing but convenient for me & not
really good for him!!!
i ended up confining him to the kitchen area
with a 'baby gate' with toys ,water,etc. and plenty of newspapers spread around..
You probably will get a lot of opinions on
this but that is probably a good thing.Right?
Good Luck and may you both enjoy your new
furbaby SADIE..

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Welcome Snogrl, I guess you are getting more opinions than you ever thought possible.
I have to mostly agree with Carrie, Actually we do have crates, two of them. One for Daisy and one for Perry. We leave the door open for Perry and he goes in when he feels like it for a nap and he wants to sleep in it at night. I tried letting him loose but he wanted in his crate and cried until I latched his door. Daisy does not use her crate never goes in during the day or at night, we have a couple of beds around the house and she sleeps in them during the day. However if we are going on a extended trip we fold our back seat down and they travel in the crates for safety sake. If we go out for a few hours and it is nice outside they stay on our patio. Especially during the winter when we go out we leave them in the kitchen, they have a rug, toys and both their crates are in there and we have a kiddie gate between the kitchen and den. They can go in the crate or play or lay on the rug.
I don't really like the crates, too much confinement for an animal. I would be really wary of putting a small puppie in one and keeping it in there for 3 or 4 hours. That is a long time to expect the pup to hold it and sleep. The idea of having a puppy is to enjoy it not confine it. Snogrl maybe you could get some kiddie gates and at least confine it to one room, where it could move about. We have four kiddie gates that we use when we travel or in the house when we have company that Perry and Daisy don't like.
Good luck with your new puppie, are you sure you are ready to take on that responsibility
right now, it takes a lot of work and patience to bring up a pup. :)
Jackie

[3-greys-and-a-mutt]

Our dogs, even though only two are regularly crated, are all crate-trained. It has come in very handy when we have taken them on vactions and had to stay in hotels or at family member's homes.
Our Paula loves the crate; that is her nap spot of choice when we are home (with the door open).
Boo is spastic and gets spooked easily, so we feel that crating her when we are gone from home is the safest option. I fear that she would hurt herself by trying to climb out of windows, chew through furniture, or get into cupboards. When she is older and more sedate, we do plan to leave her out. For now, she relaxes and enjoys sound, undisturbed naps in her crate.
Pup is a puppy, and I worry about her getting into things just like Boo. But she also sometimes gets on the nerves of the other dogs, and they could injure her intentionally or accidently. She is in a greyhound-size crate, and has plenty or room to walk around, pplay with toys, etc.

For us, crating works. I feel that all my dogs are in a safe environment when we can't be there to watch them.

[AdoreMyDogs]

Wow...all I have to say is that I LOVE reading all the debates here :) Very interesting and some wonderful points. I, too, believe in crate training, but also agree with some of the points Carrie had about not crate training, and I respect Carrie's words very much. No advice, just wanted to share with you my appreciation for a nice, friendly debate :) LOVE IT!

[ August 16, 2001: Message edited by: AdoreMyDogs ]

[SnoGrl]

Thanks everyone for the warm welcome! My husband has been keeping up with your advice on here as well. We appreciate everyone's opinions greatly--we need the advice as new puppy parents!

Last nite we had an interesting occurence with Sadie. We had put a handful of food in her cage mid-evening and shut and locked the door-we don't want her in the crate when we are home. So my husband and I ate our dinner, packed our bags for our trip this weekend, were busy (but in the room) and Miss Sadie sat outside the kennel and pawed at it to get in. When we opened the door, she gladly went in and cleaned up the food. We did not shut the door behind her when she went in so she could come out at her leisure. Later, when it was time for bed, we tried the same thing but she was more cautious and not sure that food was going to be worth it. She went in with some very (and I really mean very) gentle encouragement....but then woke us up every two hours for the rest of the nite. Good Dog--way to get revenge!! haha Just kidding.

SO anyway, we hate not being home with her all day. My husband would be in Heaven if he could stay at home and admire her all day. :) But that is not an option. It looks like it is just going to take some time for us to figure out her quirks and her to figure out ours. Sometimes I forget, some things just can't happen overnight!! When she gets older, we will undoubtedly be much more lenient with the whole crate situation but for now, she is going to be crated.

Thanks again for your helpful comments and suggestions for literature & web pages. We are hoping our "Great Dogs, Good Owners" arrives on Monday!

[Dixieland Dancer]

I am a breeder of Golden Retrievers and have been training dogs for over 25 years. I have done both non-crate and crate training over the years. Personally, I find crate training a pup more humane than letting them have the run of the house when nobody is there. After a dog is house broken (for potty and knowing what is acceptable and not acceptable to chew on) they can gradually be weaned from the crate while you are not there. Always leave the door open though so they can go in when they want to. I find they even go in once they are allowed to come out. Here are some ideas on the subject.

The Importance of Crate Training

When dogs are in the wild, they live in a den. This makes them feel safe and secure. In your home, his crate is his den. Crate training should start as soon as you bring your puppy home. Make the crate as comfortable as you can. He should be encouraged to sleep and rest in the crate. He should be coaxed in, not forced. Use a command such as "Kennel" or "Kennel up" and tap on the top of the kennel. A small treat can be used, and always give him lots of praise. Never put his food in the crate. Just use treats he especially loves. At first, he may try to back out, or become very timid. This is normal. Just give him time, and he'll go in on his own. In the beginning, don't close the door. Let him go in and out as he pleases, until he's comfortable with this situation. Once he is comfortable, restrain him with your hand in the doorway. Eventually, he will feel comfortable enough to have the door closed. A puppy should be kept in his crate whenever not supervised.

A puppy instinctively knows not to "mess" in his crate, but he does need to go out every 2-4 hours when he's young. Make sure you take him out frequently, and get him on a schedule. When you take him out use a command such as "Go Potty" and use lots of praise when he does.

He will not be able to destroy things, by chewing on them, when he is in his crate. Leave an approved chew toy in the crate with him, so that he can satisfy his need to chew. Eventually, as the puppy grows into a full grown dog, he will use his crate, with the door open, as his own little den.

Sorry to those of you who disagree with my opinion here. I know there are both sides to the camp but.... no hard feelings :rolleyes:

Best of Luck on your new pup and stick to your guns about crate training. You are doing the right thing. :)

[Rottie]

Originally posted by carrie:
<STRONG>Sorry, I am going to be of no use on this one either. I do not believe in crate training dogs unless all other paths have been tried to control an undesirable behaviour. As the dog in question is a baby the only treatment needed is time, good handling and sensitive training. I have never resorted to using a crate yet (no doubt the day will come!) A warm comfortable bed and interesting toys and some paper for a safegaurd will grow a happier and better adjusted puppy.

This is my personal opinion and many here disagree with it, so, as I said, no help at all!</STRONG>

I disagree. Crates are a very wonderful tool when housebreaking. Dogs also consider crates their "den".

I understand that crates (just like anything else) can be abused, when the dog has to stay in it day after day for hours on end and never gets any exercise or attention.

My three dogs are all crate trained. Various times throughout the day they can be found in their crates sleeping or chewing on a toy, with the door open! They are not forced to be in their crates at this time, they willing go into their crates.

How then are your dogs "happier and better adjusted" than mine?

[Rottie]

Originally posted by SnoGrl:
<STRONG>Thanks everyone for the warm welcome! My husband has been keeping up with your advice on here as well. We appreciate everyone's opinions greatly--we need the advice as new puppy parents!

Last nite we had an interesting occurence with Sadie. We had put a handful of food in her cage mid-evening and shut and locked the door-we don't want her in the crate when we are home. So my husband and I ate our dinner, packed our bags for our trip this weekend, were busy (but in the room) and Miss Sadie sat outside the kennel and pawed at it to get in. When we opened the door, she gladly went in and cleaned up the food. We did not shut the door behind her when she went in so she could come out at her leisure. Later, when it was time for bed, we tried the same thing but she was more cautious and not sure that food was going to be worth it. She went in with some very (and I really mean very) gentle encouragement....but then woke us up every two hours for the rest of the nite. Good Dog--way to get revenge!! haha Just kidding.

SO anyway, we hate not being home with her all day. My husband would be in Heaven if he could stay at home and admire her all day. :) But that is not an option. It looks like it is just going to take some time for us to figure out her quirks and her to figure out ours. Sometimes I forget, some things just can't happen overnight!! When she gets older, we will undoubtedly be much more lenient with the whole crate situation but for now, she is going to be crated.

Thanks again for your helpful comments and suggestions for literature & web pages. We are hoping our "Great Dogs, Good Owners" arrives on Monday!</STRONG>

Sounds like Sadie is starting to get used to her crate. :D Yeah :D When you are home and able to watch her, I would leave the crate door open. So she can go in or come out whenever she wants. The crate will become her "room" or "den". Good luck with Sadie, she sounds like a cutie! :)

[TollSettFK]

Here is what I heard. We have a dog loving nieghbor, who knowes A LOT about dogs, and caring, traning, and much more. She said that whenever you are not FULLY playing with the dog, crate him. I do that, and, at 8 weeks, is already potty trained! I play with him a lot, and I'd say he is only in the crate at max 2 and a half hours a day. My nieghbor also said that the crate is like a den to him, and it's a comfort to him. My pup runs in there when I vacum, or when ever somthing loud happens.

[SnoGrl]

Hi everyone,

Just an update :) We have been very successful with Sadie...and I really, honestly believe it was because we introduced her to my brother's very well trained English ShortHair Pointer. It was honestly Pete and Repeat with these two. Both are black and white in all the same places! Sadie fell in love with Pepper (2 years old and VERY patient!) They played NONSTOP for three days before Pepper had to go home to her own mommy. I think it is because of Pepper that Sadie learned what business was to be done outside, and what time is a good time to do it. We haven't had a single house problem since we brought her back from visiting with Pepper.

Also, crate training is going wonderfully well. We say "Kennel up" and she sits, but then we point and she goes to her kennel. While we aren't quite ready to stay out of our cage all day, I think we are getting there! She often times retreats to her kennel now to fetch her toys or her sleep "rug", etc. She starts obedience training on Sept. 19 which is just not soon enough for me! We don't want to encourage her to do anything that could potentially harm her hunting skills...so we are firm, but not trying to train her in any way. She is great and has been the highlight of our lives. And everyone who sees her just falls in love with her. Sadie loves the attention....I think I saw my husband beam like this at our wedding!!

Not only are we glad we got her, but we are glad we opted for a humane society dog. This month we are going to send Sadie's picture to the humane society with a a check and a thank you note...it's because of them that we have her.

Just wanted to update you all. Thanks again for all the support and advice!

[Daisy's Mom]

I am so glad Sadie is doing better! I think that you are doing the right thing to crate-train her. It worked out great for me. Good luck with sweet little Sadie!

[Angels3]

Welcome SnoGrl & Sadie. Good on you for getting a dog from a shelter! It says a great deal about the wonderful people on this board that they can have a lively discussion about the pros & cons of 'crating' dogs..but always remain respectful of each other. Shows why PetTalk is the best animal forum ever!

I'm glad Sadie is now settling in so well to her new home & family & conditions.

Now for a confession...when I first accessed dog boards that were mainly sited in the US, I kept wondering what people meant when they talked about 'crate training'. I didn't even know what a crate was...yet I'm very involved with dog rescue activities here in Australia.

Soon I realized a 'crate' seemed to mean a largish cage where you set up a 'den-like' place for the dog...where it could have its own space & be assigned to when freedom of movement around the home wasn't wanted. And the 'crate' seemed to be kept indoors...in the house or a ventilated garage or something.

I wondered why that 'crating' didn't mean a thing to me from Australian conditions. I can only guess that we have different climatic conditions so our ways of setting up a 'den' like that are different. Like we make use of outdoor areas...a purpose-built kennel with dog-run attached is one example (with big dogs & when there's lots of garden space.) Australians love their big 'backyards', as they're called. Also we have a lot of places like sheltered verandahs & sunrooms & laundry rooms attached to the backs of our houses...these are often used as dog dens (with a dog door leading to an outside spot for toileting). This is what we use for our own dogs.
I've seen largish cages used to confine dogs for security reasons & for short periods in places like dogshows, vet surgeries & at the groomers. But I've never seen one of those in anybody's house or apartment (we call them 'units' or 'townhouses'.)
So it's not a matter of whether I believe in 'crating' or not...there seems to be other ways of doing things in our conditions here.

[ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: Angels3 ]

[Angels3]

My apologies for somehow posting my entire message above in bold. I haven't a clue how I managed to do that...but I certainly didn't mean to. So I'm sorry if I've made it a bit hard on your eyes.

[karen israel]

Another warm welcome to the world's best website Jill! As you already saw, we post our ideas, opinions and experiences without malace. We are a band of buddies- at least that's what I think of my friends. And I value their thoughts highly and have learned plenty as a first time dog owner too!
As a coincidence, my friend just adopted a Brittany Spaniel and had the same crate problem. After a while, they just left the door open and now all is fine. "Lucy" comes and goes as she pleases and no mess (ok, the kitchen trash can is always tempting! LOL). Personally,I did not plan ahead when it came to a crate so by the time I bought one,Cody (GR/YL mix) had gotten used to freedom and despised it. We were extremely lucky there was always someone home. We gated the stairs and living room (rugs) but he was easily trained and after a while we just gave him the run of the house.Again, I cannot take all the credit, but he never destroyed anything, ever, no seperation anxiety, no fear of noises, no messes. (Phew!) Sounds like Sadie is turning into a wonderful, clever, amazing little girl!! May you have as much happiness as we at PetTalk, and please, pleasejoin our ranks and keep us advised (and chime in!) Photos, too, please! :D