what would you do.......?

[yorkster]

Here's the story:
I went to a huge family reunion last weekend in N. California. A 2nd cousin of mine told us a story of something that happened to him just last winter:

He lives in the Wash. D.C. area, and was shoveling snow off his roof when he fell off. He landed on his dog, an Akita (female I think). The dog's instincts kicked-in and attacked him, going for his throat. It did not fortunately get his juggular (sp?), but did a lot of damage and there was a lot of blood loss. He spent 10 days in the hospital and had to have surgery to repair damage. Much of the time he was in critical care.
People at the hospital said he should get rid of the dog.
He hasn't. They still have the dog, saying "it was just instinct. She's still a good dog"
They have 2 or 3 kids also.
I have mixed emotions about what I would do, and I'm a huge animal lover. I think the kids would be my big concern.

What do you all think you would do in that situation?
Do you think they are doing the right thing?

[cali]

i would keep the dog for sure, actually if i fell off a roof and landed on my dog i would be more worried about the poor dog, i mean i would go nuts at someone if they fell on me too quite frankly, i sure as heck would not exect my dog to take that.

[Tollers-n-Dobes]

I think the dog bit out of fear, she didn't know what was really happening and she wasn't expecting anything to fall on her. I'd keep the dog...

[jesse_3]

Diddo, what else can you expect really? I mean, I would freak out and bite too!;)

Steph and Jes

[jennifert9]

Keep the dog for sure...the dog was probably scared out of it's wits...! Can you imagine something falling out of the sky and landing on you!? How scary!

[Tonielle]

I understand why you are all saying 'keep her' BUT children are unpredictable... What if one of the kids fell on her?

I would rehome her to a non-child family OR restrict the kids access to her, for her safety as well as the children's.

I agree that it wasn't the dog's fault, but there are plenty of dogs out there who wouldn't attack even if someone did fall on them!
That is the kind of dog you need when you have children, because accidents happen.

JMO.

(poor dog, and poor man! talk about a crappy accident!):eek:

[jennifert9]

Tonielle, I totally see your point. Having a dog that bites around children is never a good idea. I wonder how old the children are? Yorkster didn't mention....?
But you are right, their friends may come over and not be familiar with dogs and behave badly...anything could happen...
If the children are a bit older, I would keep the dog I think. If they are young, it's not a chance I would take. I wonder what the county or town is doing about the dog? The bite had to have been reported and in a case like that, they usually take the dog, even if it was the owner that was bit.
Growing up, we had a cocker spaniel that bit every single family member the first week we had him. He bit my 2 year old sister on the 7th day and my parents took him back to the breeder that day. They had 3 children aged 7 to 2 and could not have a dog that would choose biting as its defense. (she accidentally kicked his leg while he was sleeping and she was walking in her little toddler shoes.)
It's definitely a tough call for the parents. Akitas are not easy dogs either. They are consistently one of the top 10 biters every year. I think they are very "one-person" dogs from what I have read. They are gorgeous animals but not quite "family" dogs. Don't get me wrong, I love them, I'm just going by what I have read about them.
But anyway, I see your point Tonielle. :) My own dog cannot be around children and I thank God every day that I adopted him, rather than a family as he would have never made it in that atmosphere.

[yorkster]

That had been my concern too (the kids).
The youngest is about 7 or 8, the oldest is 13.
Also the fact that the dog went right for the throat- more than once from what I understand.
I think that I would always be worried......................

[jennifert9]

Yorkster, what bothers me MOST about this incident in NOT that the dog bit him...I can see the dog reacting without thinking... More than once Duncan has been "up in arms" about something silly, usually another dog walking by our apartment? and we both have found my forearm in his mouth. Granted, he didn't bite me or even put pressure, he was just out of his wits with anger or aggression or whatever and wasn't thinking. (He immediately lets go and looks contrite, it was an accident, a consequence of his over zealousness...no biggie....)
BUT, going for the throat is NOT a natural canine behavior and THAT bothers me. Wolves DO NOT kill their prey before eating it. Cats do that....they "strangle" their prey by biting down on the throat until it no longer struggles, either dying by the inability to breathe or blood loss. Wolves hunt in packs and usually corner or catch their prey and then start biting in the easiest, most opportunistic place for them personally. It's sad and disgusting but such is nature....:(
"Going for the throat" is a LEARNED, TRAINED" behavior in canines, it is not natural. Perhaps the throat and head and neck area WERE the most convenient areas for this dog to bite die to the way he fell and landed.....? But intentionally attacking another living thing there is so NOT natural for canines. Was this dog used for protection before the kids? Is this dog trained in schutzhound?(sp?) There has to be more to the story than your cousin is telling you...I mean, at the VERY least, the county should have taken this dog for behaviorial examination. I used to work for the county health dept. and we took in dogs for WAY more minor offenses....my own dog got a letter because he jumped on a boy and scratched him on the hip (no broken skin, no blood).....Remember the case in San Fran? Those dogs were trained how to kill, it was not their nature or their instincts that caused them to kill that woman, it was their prior training in protection, and offensive behavior and their devotion to their owners that caused that senseless death, NOT natural behavior. So, now that I have said all that...perhaps the dog does need to go.....So sad....

[Tonielle]

I speak from experience in this area

Smokey, my buddy who I rescued as a six-week old baby

http://www.muchos.co.uk/members/Toni/Smokey - I_m all washed up .jpg

had to be rehomed a while back at age two and a half.

(smokey at one year old)
http://www.muchos.co.uk/members/Toni/Smokey 1 year old.jpg


Although he grew up with the kids, he was just too nervous and if any little people scared him or cornered him he would automatically snap.
The sad thing is that he loved the kids and only reacted instinctively, and immediately felt bad about it.
He's in a fabulous new home (thanks to border collie rescue Wiccaweys.org) and they have two teenage girls (great because he has LOADS of energy!)

But I had to do the responsible (however hard) thing and choose to rehome him because we had two incidents where the baby was bitten on the face (well, snapped at and accidentally made contact)

Anyhow, it's just the responsible thing to do, for the dog and for the family.

JMO :( I miss him.

[lv4dogs]

Maybe the neck area is the only area that was near the dogs mouth? Since the man fell on him I would think that the dog just went for whatever was nearest?

This would be a toughie for me. By all means it is NOT the dogs fault, if it wasn't for the kids I'd keep the dog without a doubt.

I guess I'd have to be there & get the whole story.

If the dog bit the throat only because that was the body part that was nearest to him and he only bit multiple times because he was in pain &/or did not yet realize who the man was on top of him and stopped biting on his own without assistance from anyone else and the dog lets kids play with him fairly roughly I'd still keep the dog without a doubt.


jennifert9, I know you are right about wolves hunting behavior in packs but it makes me wonder about the behavior in dogs that are not in packs or domesticated dogs. Sadly but true & natural instinct I personally know/have known an awful LOT of dogs that will kill smaller animals, rabbits, woodchucks, racoons etc.. and every dog I have ever witnessed went for the throat, once experienced they held it there until it was suffocated or paralyzed.

[Flatcoatluver]

wow what breed is the dog??? umm what i would do is keep the dog, and for the guy to gain the dogs respect back because the dog might be a little scared about what had happened. 13 isn't that young the kid should understand but for the 7 year old i think that he/she would have a lil. understanding to be careul because her/his daddy ended up in the hospital for that. THe dog should be in a kennel and then when the whole family is home they should just kinda have a family bonding to get back the dog trust and to get things back to normal if it isn't yet

[Addie]

i would say keep it. If the kids are too immature for there age then there is a problem...if the kids do pull on the tail and stuff like they would when they were like 4, then set them straight. The dogs have instincts, so to get rid of the instincts you get them trained. You can get freaked out and hurt someone by accident. It is a natural thing...and what is the chance that there will be someone else who falls on the dog. Did he fall on it's back?

[KYS]

I have mixed emotions on this.
Did the dog have any prior incidence before?
Not knowing the history and going by
your post, I would consider putting the dog down.
(a couple of bites is one thing till the dog realizes
Hey! this is family vs tearing out the neck.)
I recently fell over Rocky one night when he was sleeping
in the hallway. (dumb dog, likes to sleep
in walk ways.. ) grrrrrr!
He got up FAST but not a peep out of him.
(of course I did not fall on top of him from a roof)

I was told a long time ago, never startle any dog while
they are sleeping.
They might bite not realizing what they are doing.

[yorkster]

Originally posted by jennifert9
BUT, going for the throat is NOT a natural canine behavior and THAT bothers me. Wolves DO NOT kill their prey before eating it.

that's kind of what I thought too. my dog (border collie/lab mix) has gone after a couple of possums in the back yard- one she ended up killing. both times she just grabbed it on it's back/shoulder area. maybe eventually the one she killed was grabbed at the throat, but not at first.

as for the rest of the details about this dog attack, I don't know them all at this time, but will try to find out. he is actually my dad's cousins son, so I really only see him at these reunions. my sister spoke to him more about it, so I will ask her.
I do know though that these people are huge animal lovers and not the type to teach or encourage aggressive behavior like that. maybe this dog has some 'history' they did not know about :confused:

[Tonielle]

As has been mentioned before (I think?) Akitas are fantastic and beautiful dogs but...

Not exactly the most recommended breed for a family with children, or for the first time owner.

They are brilliant, but must have an experienced owner.

It's not necessarily something bad that's happened in the past, could have just been the reaction of a high-strung dog who happens to have the ability to do a lot of damage (because of size and muscle/strength ratio)

I'm sure she's a fabulous girl, but I just wouldn't have her around children - as I said, for her safety as well as the kids.
She will lose her life if because of another tragic accident she mauls a child!



*sorry, edited to clarify:

I am not mentioning the complex character of the Akita because I think the owners are not able... More just to highlight the fact that they are known to be complex dogs and not for the inexperienced for a reason (or two LOL)

[KYS]

I partly agree,
not the best breed for a first time dog owner.

In the correct environment, an Akita with the
"proper" temperament
and being treated correctly with it's owners
can be a good "family" dog.
I would not recommend
any dog to be left unsupervised with children.
Dogs are still dogs and children sometimes do not
treat them correctly.
JMHO

[lizbud]

If this were my dog that I had raised & trained myself, I would
not get rid of the dog for one incident. It was a bad accident. Why
punish the dog for it? Peolple who have had their dogs for years
either know their dogs temperment or they don't.

[bckrazy]

wow... what a bad situation for the dog and the man! Was the Akita badly injured also? I would think she'd at least get a few broken bones from a full-grown man falling off a roof onto her. Have you thought of it this way - the poor pup probably broke her masters fall, he could've gotten badly broken legs, or a broken neck or back? ;) so in that way he might be lucky!!

IMHO, its just dumb to compare a 200-lb MAN falling off a ROOF onto a dog with a 7 year-old accidentally falling on or stepping on the dog. His kids seem old enough to be taught how to act around dogs. My 3 year-old little brother is old enough to know not to poke, pull, step on or chase Gonzo... he has fallen on Gonzo when he was sleeping, and Gonzo growled out of being startled, but then he felt really bad about it. I can totally imagine if my Dad fell on Gonzo (even not falling off of a roof) it would hurt and shock him so much that he might bite my Dad. Anyway, just because a dog CAN do that kind of damage, it doesn't mean she WILL do it again. It seems like they really love their dog, and for him to completely forgive her after injuring him he must know that he really scared/hurt her and its out of her nature. I dont know if you should blame this totally on the breed, because I'm sure there are many sweet Golden Retrievers or Labs out there that would do the same if a 200-lb thing fell on them out of nowhere and they didnt realize it was their owner.

If you really do feel uncomfortable with his decision, you should recommend he see a good behaviorist about it. A behaviorist can evaluate the Akita's temperament and give them some good tips on how to prevent anymore bites.

[Dixieland Dancer]

I reluctantly post this as so much has been already said, some of which I fully agree with and some I question.

My opinion.... Akita's are known to be dog aggressive and many Akita owners will tell you it takes a special kind of owner to handle this dog. That being said.... I do not lump all dogs into one category. I make my judgements on individual merit. In this case, I'm not sure how the man falling off the roof would cause the Akita to react to severely bite the man (especially the dogs owner). Perhaps it was so startled it lost control. None of us will know since we were not there to witness this unfortunate incident.

Liz hit the nail on the head when she said the owners should know the temperament of their dog. If they don't then shame on them. If they have even the slightest inclination the dog is not safe around the children, the dog should be rehomed.

If the dog came from a reputable breeder, this would be an excellent source of information on the dogs relatives temperments. There are also many articles online about AKita's. If the breeder is of no help, contact someone from the National Akita club and they will be more than happy to help you. I'm sure they would be more than willing to offer help in this area. If nothing else, they can point you to Akita rescue if rehoming the dog does come into play.

[yorkster]

new update......

I found out that the dog was asleep when he was fallen upon.
Also that there had never been any kind of agression in tne past, so maybe that puts a little different spin on things. :)

[RobiLee]

I tend to agree with KYS and Dixieland's opinions. I'm not for sure what I would do to be honest with you. To me it certainly sound like more than just a frightened dog lashing out. Sounds like an attack to me. It sounds pretty vicious. I could see Katie or Tori reacting out of fear for a second but as soon as they recognized it was me I'm certain that would be the end of it. Like KYS, I just tripped over Katie in the dark hallway and I am pretty certain that I wound up kicking her pretty hard and stumbling over top of her and she only jumped up in fright and moved. I also want to add that akitas can make good family dogs, but like with ANY other dog I do not think childern should be left alone with them. I also think it takes a special kind of owner to handle akitas and I wish more people were aware of that.

[ParNone]

I think it's a natural reaction for Dogs to snap or bite, if they're in pain or startled like that. A reflex. Just as it would be for a human to push out with their hands to get something off of you that was hurting.

If my dog continued to attack though, especially at the neck, I'd be reevaluating my relationship with my dog. That, I don't think can be explained away as a reflex reaction.

I've fallen on and stepped on mine by accident. From their yelps, I'm sure it hurt, but none have ever bitten me. A mouth on me, to let me know I hurt them, was the furthest they've gone. And I of course apologized profusely and all was forgiven. I think they know when something's on purpose vs an accident.

I also don't think most people know their dog that well. How many of us have heard, "But he's always so friendly. He's never done anything like that before", right after he's attacked you or your dog?

Par...

[Pit Chick]

Originally posted by lv4dogs
Maybe the neck area is the only area that was near the dogs mouth? Since the man fell on him I would think that the dog just went for whatever was nearest?

jennifert9, I know you are right about wolves hunting behavior in packs but it makes me wonder about the behavior in dogs that are not in packs or domesticated dogs. Sadly but true & natural instinct I personally know/have known an awful LOT of dogs that will kill smaller animals, rabbits, woodchucks, racoons etc.. and every dog I have ever witnessed went for the throat, once experienced they held it there until it was suffocated or paralyzed.

I have to agree with you on this. Also, while dogs and wolves share a lot of behaviors, they don't share them all. I've had a few accidental fights at my house and the first thing they go for is the face or throat of the other dog. They know that those are vulnerable areas that will seriously hurt or bring down the other dog. A pack of wolves will bring down a large animal together and start eating while the animal is still alive because it's a race to get a belly full before there's nothing left. A dog that's fighting another dog, attacking a person either offensively or defensively is doing so out of instinct to protect itself. A dog that goes after a leg or arm leaves itself open to being kicked or punched or if it's another dog, bitten.

I also agree with BCkrazy about taking the dog to a behaviorist. This wasn't the dog's fault and really has nothing to do with breed, breeding, or training, it was an instinctual reaction to being fallen on while asleep. (I would have reacted the same way.) All dogs are different and will react differently to being disturbed while sleeping or in pain. I've accidentally stepped on tails and toes before and while some didn't even react, others jumped up with a loud yelp.