Decrating

[Hbrika]

A year ago we got a rescue puppy our yellow Gully girl.

She is very sweet, loyal and an immediate family dog.

We crated her while making sure she was potty trained and to give her her own place.

She is very very good now and we want to decrate her.

We set up the room her crate is in as her room, she has her couch, her toys and we left the crate there wide open with her blanket.

She wouldnt sleep and whined. As soon as we closed the crate door behind her she was fine.

Any ideas?

The only thing that concerns me is that she doesnt whine very often. Sometimes she whine s to play with other dogs but never when she is hurt or scared so this must really bother her.

[Corinna]

I have the same thing with Merlin> It is His place and feels like we don't care anymore. It has gotten better we just closed the door no locks. and he is getting in it less and less. It is his safe feeling place I will never take it out it's HIS. Plus if I ever need to crate him for some reason he will not be upset. Just let her go in and out and close the door but don't lock it.

[Logan]

I think Jackie's Perry does the exact same thing. Maybe she can offer you some insight. I guess I wouldn't worry about fixing what isn't broken! But I can understand why you would want her to enjoy her newfound freedom. She sounds like a real doll baby. :)

[carrie]

My view on crates is, I think, well known here.
They are used now as an acknowledged "training method".

House training, destructive behaviour, conflict between animals in the home and even seperation anxiety are now "cured" by cage, I'm sorry, crate training.

It really seems incredible to me that people that see it as their pet's right to sleep in the same bed as them have no problem shutting the same "muched loved pet" in a cage, sorry, crate for hours every day.

I understand the theory, can see why people want to do it and can even see why it works for some people and not for others.

I can not understand why anyone would want to do it.

Your dog has also understood the reason for it - it has a place where it is not obliged to come to terms with normal family life and that suits it just fine, thank you.

If I was given a crate I would spend most of my time there too and you would need a task force to get me out of it!!!!

Dogs are individuals and that is why no training method is the be all and end all. You can not crate train every dog with success, not every dog will be able to be a guide dog, not every Greyhound can race, not every terrier will dig. The list goes on and on.

I will say that there are very few dogs on the planet that deserve to be crate trained - the only purpose it serves is to make life easier and more guilt free for humans - it does not simulate natural behaviour in any way at all although that is how we are sold on it.
Those that have continued success with the method tend to be people that are pretty dog savvy and miss the other things they do with their dogs that make them great dogs....they put it down to crate training and the fact they have done it for the last twenty years without a problem.....
It is, in fact that they do other things well, not crate training that makes the difference.
House training may be quicker but it is unfair, unnatural and out of context with a dog's life.
The dog will understand it is being ignored because it has done something wrong if it's owner is grown up enough to ignore properly....you don't have to put the dog in a cage, sorry, crate to achieve it.
The only advantage I can see for some basic crate training is for travel.
It is not a training tool and should not be seen as one - in my opinion it has made being a canine more miserable than the choke chain ever did.

[lizbud]

Carrie,
Thank You for a professional opinion on
"Crate Training". Always felt "gut level",
that confinement in a cage(for whatever
reason) was the wrong way to go about it..
Keeping the dog within boundries (baby gate)
while training was reasonable...
I was never taught this, but,I do believe
it. Yes, it's harder for the people at the
time, but in the long run better for the
dog as he/she becomes a full fledged member
of the human/dog pack ... That's my 2 cents
worth... Hbreka, I wish you luck with your
doggie!! She sounds like a real sweetie!!!

[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: lizbud ]

[jackiesdaisy1935]

I'm certainly no expert at dog training, everyone knows that especially Carrie, but I do have that same thing with Perry. He sleeps in his crate, he doesn't have to, in fact I brought him up to bed with us and and he was very restless wanted to go back to his crate. One night I decided to leave his crate door open so he could sleep anywhere he wanted to but he kept crying so I went down and he went in his crate and he wanted the door closed, after I closed it he went to sleep and didn't wake up till morning.
During the day sometimes he will sleep on the couch, sometimes on my husbands chair and sometimes he likes to go in his crate and sleep. We never crate trained him, he was trained when we got him at 9 months old.
We keep two crates in our side kitchen for traveling one for him and one for Daisy, she never goes in her crate, but he brings his toys and his night night rabbit and goes in when he feels like it. We don't worry about it, he pretty much goes where ever he wants to. Sometimes he is very sociable and sometimes he likes to be alone. Don't know if this will help or not.
Jackie

[lizbud]

Hbrika,
Maybe you could just leave the crate around
so she can enter it whenever she wants to,
and try not to influence her one way or another.She might be like Jackie's Perry
and just feel more secure inside the crate.
While I personally would not crate/cage a
dog for training purposes, a lot of people do. Maybe Gully's early puppy experiences
had something to do with how she feels about
her crate.If she's doing well(sounds like a
super family dog)in all other areas, guess
then I wouldn't worry to much about it...
It makes me so happy to hear that she is
a rescue girl.Hugs to Gully !!!

[carrie]

Jackie, Jackie, Jackie.......what can I do with you??????

You get out of your bed to close the door for him, he tells you that your bed isn't good enough for him and there is no way he would lower himself to sleep with the likes of humans. He tells you it is up to him to decide when and where he chooses to sleep - an armchair ( of the most dominant human!!!) - but never where you want him to or where you tell him .....

I love you, I have great respect for your dogs......can I help you?????

Ummm....errrrr.....how do I say this?.......Ummmmm......

[jackiesdaisy1935]

Carrie, you know I'm incorrigable (spelling)?
I love you, and for an experienced dog behaviorist, I do believe I give you nightmares. :D I could write a manual " On How Not To Train Your Dog". A behaviorists dream, today Daisy decided she wanted to stay with Don all day, and Perry decided he was going to lay with me on the couch and not go to Don, I'll never understand what goes on in their heads. :rolleyes:
Jackie

[carrie]

Perry knows that Don knows what I said and is just making sure that Dad knows where the limits of listening to the bossy woman lie, I'm sure!!! Ha ha ha ha!! Kinda of getting in the sulking early just in case!

[Hbrika]

I would just like to add that we have decrated Gully, she only uses it to rest in now :)

We started little by little letting her stay out for a few hours when we were gone and that became more hours.

I go home each day for lunch to play with her and I have a very happy happy dog :)

The side benefit is that we put away stuff that she could chew on so the house is really clean all the time now :D

[carrie]

Well done!

Gully (love that name!) is a lucky dog (in my humble opinion)!

I'm so happy for Gully and for you - a dog should know it's place, with that knowledge it will be happy and relaxed. It does not need to be placed in a cage, sorry - crate, to know where it is safe and secure.

Major congratulations to you!

[NICHOLLE1978]

Carrie I am sorry But I have had excellent results with crate training. My dogs are out as soon as I get home and stay out until bed time. My dogs have a very active lifestyle and have a very busy schedule with walks, agility and obedience classes. I choose to crate my dog because I do not want a 20 pound and 100 pound dog sleeping on my bed with me and my husband. I also do not want them do destroy the house while I am gone. Your right crate training is good for some and not for others it is best to keep these feelings to ones self. Considering I do not consider myself a cruel person. Id rather see my dogs with me than with an abusive owner.

Thanks respectively

Nicholle

My animals are my life.

[NICHOLLE1978]

What is wrong with a dog going where he or she enjoys being. Eevee goes in her crate when she wants time away from her crazy little big boy brother bucky. Then she comes out when she wants to be crazy too. If it is so cruel then why do they enjoy it so much. Eevee brings blankets and toys in her crate and nests. I love it. It is one thing to be helpful carrie it is another to act above all and too smart to give advice. Can you explain eevees behavior?

Nicholle

[sammi]

Carrie has been giving us advise for a very very long time. We ask her many different dog questions and she is not shy about giving us her professinal opinion. I don't think she gives smart advice - she tells it like it is! Somethings we take and practice and some we ignore and do it our way ( sometimes I wonder why we ask the questions we do as we have no plans to change )!Ha. You are new here and I hope you enjoy it - but remember if you do ever ask for advice you will get it and lots of it and some responses you won't like at all.;)

[carrie]

I am very sorry you took it that way.

I simply do not see the need to crate dogs. A dog raised with correct crate training will accept it as it's place. My opinion is that there are better ways of creating happy secure dogs that behave in an appropriate manner when left in the house on their own.

Your opinion is different. C'est la vie!

I am happy to acknowledge that I learn at least one thing every single day and my methods have changed hugely through the years. I hope that this continues and dread the day that I think I know it all.

As for crates, I don't like them and I never will. You do and your dogs have been conditioned to accept it. That's your choice.

I hope you stay around and don't let me put you off this board, it is a great place and you will find many that share your opinions on crates.

[NICHOLLE1978]

Yes, there is a difference between giving advice and calling people cruel and ignorant for crate training their pets. Professionals help and respond professional in manner. They don't treat people like they should not own pets because they dont understand what they are doing. What about people who are not home all of the time to take care of a chewing puppy. What if the puppy chews on electrical cords while you are not home and something bad happens? How would you feel? leave him or her in the bathroom? is that the same as crating? How would you feel if you came home to a hurt family member because of something like this? Not too good right? Crating is protecting your pet. Not stupidity or cruelty it is love and protection. We all as pet owners have worried about our pets while away. Crate training eliminates the worries. And no, not everyone leaves their pets in crates for unreasonable hours at a time as she has said. There is much more to crate training than she has stated. Ask her, as a professional she will definatly be able to tell you.

[carrie]

I simply would not have a puppy or new dog if I was not in a position to put in the time and attention needed.

I did not call you cruel - I said that in my opinion the practice is not necessary and it is the practice, not the people, that I view as cruel.

You don't - that's fine. There are many here who use this method and are happy with it. I'm not among them but I still have the right to state my opinion, as do you. I am in no way attacking you and hope you don't feel the need to defend yourself on such a personal level.

[NICHOLLE1978]

I do not wish to defend myself. I am simply stating before you judge a persons position and how much time they have, think about what you say. Yes I work but that does not mean I should not have the opportunity to enjoy the ones I love the most, my animals. I have no problem with you stating your opinion. It is when you say

"I simply would not have a puppy or new dog if I was not in a position to put in the time and attention needed."

I love my pets and would do anything for them even if I do work and I leave them in a crate for their protection. Every good owner deserves that priviledge even if they are not at home all of the time.

[carrie]

I agree.

You did ask what I would do and I gave you an honest answer. Because it is not the one you want to hear does not mean that I am having a pop at you. It is an honest answer to your question, nothing more.

I am happy to agree to disagree on crates. I don't want bad feeling between us and we have both stated our opinions. Let's leave it at that and move on.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by NICHOLLE1978
Yes, there is a difference between giving advice and calling people cruel and ignorant for crate training their pets. Professionals help and respond professional in manner. They don't treat people like they should not own pets because they dont understand what they are doing. What about people who are not home all of the time to take care of a chewing puppy. What if the puppy chews on electrical cords while you are not home and something bad happens? How would you feel? leave him or her in the bathroom? is that the same as crating? How would you feel if you came home to a hurt family member because of something like this? Not too good right? Crating is protecting your pet. Not stupidity or cruelty it is love and protection. We all as pet owners have worried about our pets while away. Crate training eliminates the worries. And no, not everyone leaves their pets in crates for unreasonable hours at a time as she has said. There is much more to crate training than she has stated. Ask her, as a professional she will definatly be able to tell you.

Nicholle,
On defense of Carrie (not that I really think she needs defending), I think you were the first to mention the words Cruel and Ignorant. I reread this thread three times looking for where cruelity and ignorance came into the conversation and I'm sorry to tell you that you brought it up, not Carrie.

Hbrinka, the originator of the post, did not have a problem with Carrie's response then WHY should you. If you don't agree with her position then just don't take her advice. Carrie is a professional!!! That does not make her perfect and it certainly doesn't qualify her as God but then it doesn't mean you can't determine what works for you and your dog if you don't like her advice. Let's get real. Are you on the defensive perhaps because you feel some guilt for crate training?

In a pack, a members normal environment does not have crates or cages or whatever you choose to call them. They have dens. A animal is never locked into the den because someone isn't there to look after them. Carrie was correct in her analysis that we (humans) find crates comforting because it helps us to keep our pets in line while we can not pay them the attention they need during the early learning period.

Don't get me wrong, I am a avid fan of crate training. It has helped to alleviate many stressful situations between me and my dogs over the years. That being said though, my pups are out of cage as soon as possible and NEVER in a crate when I am at home. That includes at night. If I choose not to have my 65 and 75 pound Goldens in bed with me at night, then a simple OFF command should be sufficient.

Hbrinka asked for help. Carrie offered her advice and her opinion on crating. You are the one who got defensive. If you didn't like Carrie's opinion you should of taken it with a grain of salt and moved on (by keeping your objections to yourself). You want her to be silent but you were not able to do that yourself!

DO YOU HAVE ANY ADVICE TO OFFER HBRINKA IN GETTING HER DOG OUT OF THE CRATE? That is really what this post was started for!

[NICHOLLE1978]

I am happy to hear carries opinion. And I think she is incredible knowledgeable. I have read alot of her other responses and she knows what she is talking about in some cases. I am not mad. But good lord it does sound like Dixieland Dancer is a little upset. Oh well!!! Thank you for your response carrie did not mean to jump on you. And Dixieland Dancer please dont get so worked up. Sorry

Nicholle

[carrie]

Phew! Glad that is sorted!

I have to say that was not Dixieland Dancer upset - she has been a bit upset with me at times and you don't know the half of it!!

She is a the greatest supporter of "sensible" crate training you could find. If anyone feels they HAVE to crate train, then please do it Dixie's way.
I still don't agree with the principles behind Dixie's crate training.

You got Dixie "soft"!

She knows her dogs and has answers where I have none. (Candy - this is starting to look like a two way fan club!)

I have, over time and communication, built a huge respect for Dixie. She has a dog "savvy" and is a mine of information and experience. She also has the "human touch" which I am well aware that I lack, especially over the net!
Believe me, she was not upset, while she will fight her corner she is the most capable person I know to bridge the animal/human gap and is always honest and direct.
That was not an "upset" post from Dixie - if it was she would of said, "I am upset...."

Fan club over, we have been here for some time and know each other from the site and emails - you are just the sort of person that will fit right in here so please stay.






(Candy...... I'm not God??? !
Really??
That's a real shock!)

[Dixieland Dancer]

Carrie, it IS getting scary! I think you are starting to know me just a "Little" better than my better half. And he scares me sometimes when he knows what I'm going to do before I know what I'm going to do! LOL

I wasn't upset when I posted. I was just confused that this thread took such a strange change from how it started. I do believe in crate training and encourage anyone who feels comfortable with the method to employ it "the right way". For those who don't like the crate training method "then to each their own!"

My only objection to crate training is improper use. To many people use the crate as a place to discipline their dogs when they don't know what else to do. Crates are NOT to be used in any form of discipline. There are tooooooo many people crate training and NOT doing it "the right way." A crate does not take the place of a Alpha leader who can teach a dog through other methods.

[Pam]

We used a crate very successfully to housetrain Bella and had used crates before with our other dogs. Even when we got Bella the breeder said "I hope you are planning to use a crate for housetraining."

Bella however never took to it as her home or den. When she saw me getting ready to leave for work in the morning she would walk over to it and get inside and I would simply close the door. When we were all home in the evenings I never saw her ever enter it. As soon as she could be trusted she got her freedom to be "queen of the entire house" :D and the crate was put away. To be honest, I have worked only part time for the past 20 years so my dogs were never crated for very long hours. I think I may have had some guilt if they had been. Then again Carrie knows that my animals sleep on my bed too so I, like Jackie and others here am a softy, although I enjoy her presence there as much as she enjoys being there. :) Carrie and Dixieland Dancer are very respected folks here at Pet Talk and neither would ever argue, rather only give their opinions. When we ask questions here we had better be ready to hear answers. Some of them we may like and maybe some of them we won't like. The fact that we are here asking questions in the first place is great, because it means we love our animals enough to want to try to possibly find better ways of caring for them.

[cleverdog]

Hello everyone, I am new to this site and was excited to see the decrating topic.
We got a beautiful 3 year old sheltie about two months ago. This was a chance meeting(he was lost and when we contacted his previous owners they did not want him anymore).
Teddy(our dog) has been crated since birth...used to eating in his crate also, he apparently was only let out to use the bathroom ant to play for a little, he also was not able to be socialized when he was young. I have had dogs before but nothing like this. We need tips,help, anything to hopefully get Teddy free of this confinment state of mind.

Please, please let us know what we could do.
(he is staying with us for good, we have patience and are willing to work hard)
Thanks

[lizbud]

Wow, this is an old thread. :)


Is not enough to leave the cage door open? He might want to park
himself in there part of the day, instead of only coming out to potty.If
you could tell what methods you have tried so far to correct this problem
then maybe people could give you better advice.

[carrie]

Wow, this is an old thread!!!!!

If you have been using a comand to get the dog to go into the crate then just take the crate away and leave the bedding in the same place. Use the same command to get the dog to go to the bedding. If the dog does not understand then show and encourage whilst saying the command.

If no command has been used then create one, "BED" or "GO TO BED" are good. Practice this with the crate in place for a couple of days and when the dog is responding remove the crate.

If the dog appears to miss the crate you must be sure not to change anything else, especially how you treat the dog. Any extra cuddles or sympathy will just confirm the dog's view that it has something to worry about.

Make everyone in the house aware that they should leave the dog alone when it is on the bedding and should call the dog to them before giving it a fuss or asking it to do anything.

[Pop Alexandra]

Wow, this is an old thread!!!!!
If you have been using a comand to get the dog to go into the crate then just take the crate away and leave the bedding in the same place. Use the same command to get the dog to go to the bedding. If the dog does not understand then show and encourage whilst saying the command.


That would be the recommendation found in most dog training lessons (https://wolfmethodology.com/), and it makes sense not to overburden the dog with more commands if the old ones do the trick.