BIG problem with Max, need major help

[stacwase]

Max loves to run more than any dog I've ever heard of. He bowls me right over whenever I go to open the door, and takes off like a bat out of Hell. He'll break screen windows out, just to go out and run. I thought moving to the country would be a good thing - he was one of the biggest reasons I bought this farm. I thought that, when he broke loose, I wouldn't have neighbors to contend with. I thought I could let him run and that would help to get rid of his excess energy.

I have "seen the light," now, and I don't want him running free at all, even in the yard.

Now, he's like a dog on cocaine or something. He's completely unpredictable and the energy has most certainly not decreased. He stays on our property, for the most part, but he'll chase an animal until he catches it.

His prey drive has absolutely skyrocketed, and he will chase anything that moves. He has actually opened my chicken coop (very difficult feat - smart dog). He kills just to kill, not to eat. He just picks the chickens up off their perches by their heads and breaks their necks, then goes on to the next chicken - doesn't even draw blood. He then piles them up.

I do my very best to keep him contained, but about once every 1-2 weeks, now, he bowls somebody over and gets out the door.

I know it's my fault for letting him run when I did. He got a taste of it and thinks it's his right now.

He used to be so sweet and gentle - I trusted him around children and little kittens (supervised). Now I wouldn't let him near a small child, for fear that he'd think the child was prey.

The neighbors (life estate people in trailer on our property) have small grandchildren who come over and jump on their trampoline occasionally. I'm scared to death that Max will get loose again and think those kids are prey.

Max can jump very high fences. A nine-foot fence surrounding my house is absolutely out of the question right now, as I am in the middle of a divorce and basically broke.

Do any of you have any training suggestions? I'm keeping the windows closed so he can't bust out screens, and I've got the kids trained to open the door in such a way as to not let him out, but I'm afraid a visitor will accidentally let him out (we only have visitors about once a month).

[senorita02]

Sounds like Max needs some discipline, i would look for a good dog trainer, i believe any bad behavior can be changed with the proper work and dedication. I think Max deserves a shot at it. Good luck , he sure is handsome in his siggy!

[stacwase]

You mean you don't think it's a huge problem? Going through obedience training might actually help? I could do that. I know he went through it before I got him but shoot - that would be easy!

I thought people would recommend a dog behavioriest or something like that. We'd have to travel 200 miles to find anything other than a basic obedience trainer.

I hope it's not a psychotic personality disorder or something like that, LOL.

[senorita02]

Thats what i meant, behaviorist, sorry i wasnt clear, i just know that if it were me i would do whatever it took, to make sure Max could be a trusted fellow.
How old is he?
Face went thru some stuff similar when he was younger, but now he is very very obedient and trustful around others.

[senorita02]

Oh and i dont think he is phsycotic (sp)?
He is an animal with prey drive.

[cali]

so if he is not allowed free period then how much exersize does he get exactly? sounds to me like he is just restless and trying to get a good run, if I did not take my guys out to run free regularly they would be eaxctly the same way lol

[ramanth]

Even though it was possible that Kia had obedience training before I got her, I still signed up both up so that I learned how to correctly disipline or spot a problem and Kia learned that I was the boss.

Definitely try obedience first. If you find that doesn't work, then the trainer may have suggestions of what your next move should be.


Has Max seemed aggressive towards kids at all? Kia chases squirrels and rabbits and I have no doubts that she'd kill them if she caught them, but if a kid is near, she just rolls over and shows her belly.

I would hope Max could tell the difference between a small animal and a young kid. But it is good that you're being cautious.

Good luck!

[Glacier]

Nope, it's not a psycho dog kind of problem. It's a prey drive problem. Some dogs just have out of control prey drives. I have one just like Max. Kayleigh thinks anything smaller than her is prey. She'd love your chicken coop!! We've tried to retrain it out of her. It didn't work, so we just control her access to potential prey. I don't particularly care if she catches a squirrell during her off-leash time. I care if she catches a cat during her house time! So Kayleigh never sees the cats or small dogs.

Some kind of training course would likely be highly beneficial. Max needs to learn to come to you when he's called and not knock people over to get out. It's unlikely that you can completely eliminate the prey drive, but you can control his reactions.

Part of the problem may be that Max is bored and restless. It sounds like he has exercise needs that aren't being met. Do you have any fenced area where he can be contained safely? How about a cleared section where you could set up a trolley tie-out line? Preacher has one that looks like clothes line. Got a bike? Get a springer and run his little legs off on it!!! A tired dog is a good dog!

BTW, prey drive and aggression to humans are completely unrelated. You're right not to let Max near kittens, but he would likely be fine with children. No dog should be left unsupervised with a small child, but I'd bet Max knows the difference between prey and kids. Kayleigh does. She adores kids and is a big, gentle love with them.

Good luck.

[AngelZoo]

Stacwase:

Your dog, sounds like a normal dog, with high energy, high prey drive, and very, very bored!

Most certainly get him into some training.

Enroll him and yourself, into a good obedience training class. Not only can you teach your dog to behave, but the trainer can teach you how to train a dog! It is a very invaluable experience.

Once you feel you've got a grasp on basic obedience techniques, make sure that you follow up at home every day. Start about two times a day, for about 3-5 minutes. However long you can keep your dogs attention. As you go along, gradually lengthen the time of your training sessions.

Very important, keep your dog contained. If you can not control your dog with commands/words, keep him attached to you. Walk him on a leash, don't let him run around free, specially with out a secure fence.

Come up with mind games, you can play with your dog, mental challenges. Sometimes physical execise is not enough, and your left with a bored dog bouncing off the walls!
Make training fun and challenging for him.

These are just the first baby steps, hopefully they will work. If not, I certainly recommend find a GOOD behavorist (no they are not all created equal) and teaming up, to find a solution.

[Denyce]

I totally understand where you are coming from. Sequoia has a high prey drive. But I do trust her around children. Last Sunday we took her out to a charity dog walk event. She was her usual self...very excited...a little snarly at the other dogs that got close. However, certainly not as aggressive as 3 goldens were...wow.:eek:

Yet at one point a dog got a bit close to her just as 2 small children were approaching. She gave a quick snarl at the dog..then immediatly looked at the kids...put her ears back in submissive position and rolled over on her back for the kids to rub her tummy. I am still learning about her but I am no longer nervous about children approaching her at all.

Denyce

[Logan]

I am of no help, Stacy, but I think you should post this same message in Dog Behavior. Carrie, Candy and others post there, and they are trained, professional dog behavior people. Their insight would be invaluable in a situation like this!

I wish you the absolute best of luck!!!! :)

[stacwase]

Thanks, all. I will repost in dog behavior.

Regarding his behavior with children: if anybody (child or adult) falls down on the ground, Max gets right on top of them. He doesn't growl or bare his teeth - he just runs around and jumps on them, making it difficult for them to get up. I really don't know what he's doing when he does that, but he's done it from the beginning. It scares the beejeezus out of small kids.

As far as exercise goes, when I lived in town I used to take him to a hiking trail out in the country and let him run off-leash. He ran back and forth, up and down the trail, in and out of the woods, but he always came back to check on me every five mintues at the very least. But at that time, his prey drive didn't seem so intense. Now I'm afraid to allow him off-leash because he might take off after an animal and not come back.

Up and down a trolley or back and forth in a run isn't anywhere near the kind of exercise he needs. I've brought him 4-wheeling with me and he runs over 20 mph for miles and miles.

He's almost five years old. I'd think he'd be slowing down by now.

Today, I was out in the garden with Aspen. Max was tied near the garden, with a big cable tie-out rated up to 150 lbs (he's about 90 lbs). Last I saw him, he was running across my back field. Of course, Aspen went with him.

His cable appears to be completely undamaged. He had a very sturdy collar on - I don't know if he could have broken it or not. If he broke it, his tags are now missing as well.

I have no clue where he is. The new fawns should be being born any time now. If somebody sees him chasing down a fawn, they will shoot him - no doubt about it.

Time for obedience, I guess. I'm starting a new job and getting a divorce and trying to fix up this old homestead. This is just too much.

[stacwase]

Max is back. His collar is undamaged. No sign of Aspen.

[AngelZoo]

Now that he's back, keep him inside with you, or on a secure run, where you can watch him.

The last thing you need is him getting loose and going after another animal or child, then him getting shot, or having to be put down because of a neighbors complaint.

[stacwase]

Aspen is back, unharmed. Max is secured, of course.

[LeahMM]

I agree with obedience training whole heartedly. I also practice Nothin In Life Is Free. All of my dogs have to sit and wait before going outside. NILIF is an invaluable tool and helps to keep the dogs in check during various situations.

[dukedogsmom]

I have no knowlege to add but very sorry you're having problems. I agree that he's probably just very bored. I also agree about the NILIF. That could make a big difference. I think the training courses are a must. Just don't give up. He'll get back to normal with training. It'll just take a little time, is all. Hug him for me. Glad they both got back ok.

[Ginger's Mom]

I have nothing useful to add, except to say that I am really sorry to hear that you are going through all of this right now.:( I hope you can find something that works for you soon.

[bckrazy]

Definitely, definitely enroll him in Obedience, buy good OB books, and start NILIF diligently. I'm so sorry about everything you're going through, but I *promise* that extra training/attention and obedience work will make it a lot better. He does sound like he's not connected to you, out of control, thinks he's the boss and he can run anywhere anytime. Don't let him off-leash AT ALL until he has a very solid recall, only walk him on a leash or a secure long line for exercise. Don't tolerate pushing people over to go out. Whenever anyone is opening a door, Max needs to be on-leash and corrected if he charges for the door. . get him a rolled leather collar (adjust so you can slip two fingers in, and have it at the top of the neck) and have him sit before the door is opened. If he lunges toward it, jerk the leash sharply and get him to sit again before he goes outside. It sounds like he's taking his freedom for granted and he's just going wild. . it will take work but it'll be so much easier for you after Obedience and tons of reinforcing/training. I hope everything gets better soon :)

Gonzo was also super-drivey and crazy for a while, when he was about 12 months old. If he was off-leash, he thought he was completely in control and could go anywhere he wanted. . . so, he was never off-leash in unfenced areas until his recall was perfect (1 year of Obedience later. .). Now, I still have to remind him to stay close but he'd never run off. We have been walking on trails before, with him off-leash, and a deer has run right by and with just a stern "Leave It" he has completely ignored the deer. OB is SO worth it. We were really lucky to find amazing classes and I even got to be an Assistant Trainer last summer ^_~

[shais_mom]

Originally posted by stacwase
Thanks, all. I will repost in dog behavior.

Regarding his behavior with children: if anybody (child or adult) falls down on the ground, Max gets right on top of them. He doesn't growl or bare his teeth - he just runs around and jumps on them, making it difficult for them to get up. I really don't know what he's doing when he does that, but he's done it from the beginning. It scares the beejeezus out of small kids.



I have no advice - just a question after reading this.

Is he Neutered?

[stacwase]

Yup - he's neutered.

I appreciate all of the help and advice. I think I'll go with NILIF and see if I can figure out a way to exercise him better (maybe utilizing the 4-wheelers?). There's a months-long waiting list for obedience training here. I need it sooner. Do you actually have to attend the classes, or is there away to do it alone at home?

[dukedogsmom]

Contact this man. He is great! I would send him an email right away. Have you ever seen his show The Dog Whisperer on National Geographic Channel? He is amazing.
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/channel/dogwhisperer/

[stacwase]

Thanks for the link, Val - I'll try it. I've never heard of him.

I just got back from taking Max for a run (with me on the 4-wheeler). He pooped out after 2 miles at 17-20 mph. That's unusual for him. He usually goes about 10 miles, but I've had him inactive for so long that he's probably getting out of shape. Anyway - when it looked like he was good and tired, I brought him inside and he flopped down on the floor for a nap. Then - somebody was going out the door and he bolted. He's gone again. He's staying within sight of the house but won't let anybody catch him.

I guess I should look on the bright side - he's not running deer.

[cloverfdx]

Oh dear :(. Did you get Max back?

[ramanth]

Is Max home yet?