This has me a little worried (Candy,Carrie,Aly...Anyone!)

[anna_66]

We went to the dog park today (me and all 3 of the dogs). Well at this particular dog park the watering hole is outside of the fence.
So I leash Bon up and take him out for a drink. Everything was fine until a young pup came up to get himself/herself a drink. Bon growled and snapped as to say "This is mine...take a hike". Of course I immediately put him in a sit stay and appoligized for his behavior. Luckily she wasn't upset, but I was. So after they leave I let him drink his fill.
As we were starting to leave a woman with two pugs comes (with one dog in her arms and the other offleash..outside of the fence). So Bon sees him coming and growls also telling him "take a hike". Of course this little pug had no intensions of taking a hike and growled right back. I try to go away..get him out of the situation and the pug follows us with his owner calling him to come, which needless to say he didn't do.
Finally she came and hearded him inside the fence. She really didn't say anything, but I could tell she wasn't happy with the way Bon reacted and neither was I.
He's never done that before and we just went to the park with a ton of dogs a couple weeks ago. I just don't understand.
Now my questions are:
Should I quit taking him to the park?
Should I just keep him on leash?
Will he grow out of this?
Does this mean his is getting agressive and we should have him neutered?

See, some of the people bring their own water buckets in and share with everyone so they don't have to make the trip outside the fence. So I don't want this to happen again. He's 119 lbs (and 9 months old) now and almost heavier than I am.
Any advice would sure help!

***Added extra information about Bon's park encounters in another post below***

[jenluckenbach]

Well, even I, a lowly cat person (who by the way has worked with dogs for over 20 years, I just don't have them at home) would say that he is of age for RAGING HORMONES. Neutering should most definitely help even IF there are other reasons for his actions.

[lizbud]

Anna,

I know you want to wait till Bon has a more developed bone
structure before he is neutered.Most Mastiff owners do.

Maybe it's due to his relative inexperience in dealing with other
pups his age. I believe you did well to take charge right away
by putting him in a sit. He should know that you will be the one
to make any decisions & he'll be safe.:)

[jennifert9]

Anna, I am so glad you posted this as I am curious to hear the answer! Duncan cannot drink water at the dog park because if another dog comes over, either to the community fountain or to someone else's water bowl that Duncan has commandeered, he will growl at the other dog, snap and them and has on occassion attacked them. I usually have to stand by the water dish and pull him away when other dogs come over.
He loves to play with other dogs as long as they are not submissive. If they are timid he will jump on them, hold them down and growl at them. He doesn't bite them, just growls and barks. It's very upsetting and I don't know why he does it. He does the play posture to almost every dog and if they want to play, he plays! If they snarl at him or are submissive to him, he attacks. ???
So thanks again for the thread!
PS I'm sorry Bon did this and upset you. I know the feeling and it sucks! :)

[jennifert9]

Anna, I'm going to bump this before I go to bed..I know you are concerned and more people will see it in the am! Hopefully Carrie will be around sometime soon...this sounds like a question custom made for her expertise.:)

[anna_66]

Originally posted by jennifert9
He does the play posture to almost every dog and if they want to play, he plays! If they snarl at him or are submissive to him, he attacks. ???

Now Bon never did this before but since he's been the one being sought out at the park he's getting very leery of other dogs (guess I should have said that in my original thread too).
I'm glad you brought that up Jennifer.

[cali]

how close were the other dogs approching bon? if they were acting all wiggily sorta then Bon is in the right and those others are in the wrong, I recently read that it is akin to a stranger running up to you and trying to take something that as far you you are concerned is yours, you would tell them to take a hike too lol but as this water thing is NOT his, let him know that YOU control who is allowed their and who is not. basicly dont say anything if he growls gentaly lead him away, if he tries to go back just let him know that he is welcome back when YOU say he is, lead him back if if he growls again jsut lead him away again, he should catch on pretty quick. :)

[Pit Chick]

Is it just when he's on a leash that he does this? Sometimes dogs can be more defensive or aggressive towards other dogs when they are leashed because they 1. are restrained and he absorbes your tension through the leash 2. he thinks he can act tough because you're holding him back. I don't know if hormones are playing a big factor...yet, at 9 months he's more like a horny teenager than a territorial adult.

[lizbud]

Anna,

You said Bon has been getting along fine with other dogs at the park until this incident, but also mentioned that other dogs would
seek him out. Were the other dogs acting playful? How did the
interactions go? Were they just sniffing him out, etc. ?

If any previous encounter was a bad one, he could be re-acting to that by being on guard with newer dogs for a while. I'm sure
, if that's the case, Carrie , Candy or Aly could offer good advice
on how to overcome a bad experience. Hugs to Bon, Roxy & Huney.:)

[2crazypuppies4me]

I have to tell you that Maggie and I (Lilly was there too) had a bed time at the park on Monday night, and we went right back Tuesday. Have you ever played with his food or water bowl when he was a pup and when he was eating? Seriously, try that, that will teach him that it can be taken away at any time and that he need to learn how to share. Even though he's never done that before, he still need to know how to share at all times. I did that with Lilly and Maggie, still do at times, play with there food while there eating. I know that sounds silly but it works.

[Dixieland Dancer]

Hi Anna, I just came across this thread. I will attempt to offer you some help.

First realize the characteristics of your beloved Bon's breed. They were bred to protect gamekeepers from poachers. They do have the pack instinct bred into them to protect their prizes. Now couple that with a dog park experience...adrenaline high and excitement in the air....don't be surprised there may be the possiblity of a scuttle or two. But it can be controlled and you are on the right track! :D

At nine months, Bon is still trying to find who he is. His testostorone is starting to flow and he knows he is strong and confident. You can equate this with a teenage boy. They want to take on the whole world. :eek: Bon is going to test the water to see how far he can go and what is acceptable. As long as you remain a strong pack leader this period will pass. You are too be congratulated on letting him know he was out of line and disciplining him by putting him in a sit. Don't be afraid to discipline him again in a more substantial way, for example a long down or even taking him to the car for time out.

I would not stop taking him to the park. I would just make sure of the surroundings and what dogs are around. If there is any possiblity of a scuttle, put the leash on him. Control his greetings in a controlled manner to new dogs. Give him a command to go easy or it's ok. You can even put him in a sit stay until the greeting is made. Make sure it's a solid command understanding on his part. Don't let your guard down but don't be overly apprehensive either. Bon will pick up on your apprehension and he may think he should protect. Just be a strong pack leader and continue in training. If you do, things will be ok.

I'm sure you realize that having him neutered at a young age will help in some of the male to male aggression that may occur. I also know you have decided to wait awhile to do that. I would strongly encourage you to do that if you are not planning on using Bon as a stud dog someday. Once he has stopped growing (height wise) would be a good time.

One last point. If the watering hole is a protective instinct for Bon at the park, then it would be wise to take your own jug of water for Bon to drink from. I always take water to the park for Dixie and Dusty and other dogs that may need it. However, I always have a backpack with me too that has a squirt bottle strictly for my dogs if necessary. They each know how to drink that way. Perhaps you may want to give that a try. Basically, you are trying to forsee any problem that may arise and prevent it.

I can tell you stories about this from my own experiences with Dusty at the dog park! I know he is a golden and they are suppose to be mild mannered but Dusty likes the girls and doesn't like other males near them. I have done the same things I'm telling you and although I still watch for possiblities of scuttles, I can see them coming before they do and will divert Dusty from the situation. He loves the dog park and I want to take him so I just keep on guard as any good pack leader would. Good Luck and let me know if this all makes sense.

[anna_66]

Makes perfect sense Candy, thanks. And your right when you say he's testing the water. He seems to be doing alot of that here lately! He's tested us more than Angus ever did and I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing with him. I'm glad you didn't suggest I not take him to the park any more as he did fine until the water incident.

2crazypuppies4me
We've put our hands in the water and food bowl since he was a pup and he has no problem what so ever with that. Even my 1 yr old niece can take his food out of his bowl and feed it to him:)

Pit Chick
He's definately more like the horney teenager than a territorial adult!


Now that being said, Liz suggesed and I agree that I should tell you about his park experience and why he can be leery of new dogs(of course this is a little lengthy).

When we went to the Findlay get together he was just awesome with all the dog and of course I was extatic until one of my friends brought her foster husky.
Now he had been to my house before and was fine at first but after a while tried to be mean and boss my kids around so they left. I was hoping it wouldn't be like that at the park, but it was.
Bon and Woody got along for quite a while and then I'm not really sure what happened but Woody was growling and wouldn't leave him alone. So of course after a bit Bon decided he wouldn't put up with it and growled back. They were clanking teeth but nothing was coming of it, but if we werent' there to intervene it might have turned into something worse...who knows.
Well anyway I grab Bon and pull him back and he lunges towards Woody again accidentally grabbing my friends shirt and ripping it:(
Of course I felt horrible and she left as not to cause any more problems. Well then sibersibes new husky Cloud seemed to want to make something of it with Bon so we seperated them and I kept Bon on the leash for a bit until they left. So once again I let him go and shais mom came with Keegan. Not sure what happened again but I heard growling and of course leashed him again. By then he seemed like he didn't want anything to do with any of the dogs so we left.
Well then a couple days later we went to our park and immediately one of the dogs come up to Bon and starts following him trying to give him a hard time for lack of a better word. Luckily wolf_q's dog Nebo jumped inbetween them and I got Bon and leashed him and we took him on the other side of the park.
So I don't know if he has an "air" about him that other dogs don't like or what.
Also when Nebo was staying here we could not have any food around the two of them. They were fine and would play until one or the other started to mount then they would start to go at it. Never really out for blood, but who know if left unattended.
I don't know if this would help any but I thought I ought to add it.

[Shelteez2]

One thing I can add after reading your last update on Bon's park experiences is that I've seen a lot of dogs react in a poor way to dogs that are still intact.
Usually it's been neutered male dogs meeting up with an intact male dog. They get all puffy and start posturing, almost as if to say even though I don't have those danglies I'm still tough....;)

I think you need to be aware that many dogs may react to Bon like this and with his hormones raging he won't back down from them. I would stay on top of his obedience training and I wouldn't avoid the park, but I would be extra cautious. Work on getting a really strong recall out of him as well as a nice long attention command. Avoid situations where he might feel territorial.

Best of luck to you, I hope you are able to nip this in the bud.
I also support you in your decision to wait on neutering him, no matter how trying the next few months may be. :)

[carrie]

This is a very quick reply - i will answer more fully if needed, it is very late here and I am V. tired!
Also i have not read anyone's replies so if I repeat advice or go against anyone, please understand that it is unintentional. (My shift button doesn't seem to be working 100% either - please forgive!)

I am poo with names, so "the dog" will have to get us through here!

As I understand the situation you have a very large dog that is displaying territorial/protective aggression at 9 months.

Number one thing to do is to call your vet and get this dog neutered ASAP. There tends to be a worry in owners of larger dogs that castration will affect their growth - with decent nutrition and symathy for longer bones (don't let the dog jump in and out of cars/trucks, allow free running up to the point where the dog begins to show signs of fatigue and put in a lot of time in building the muscles needed to support the movement and stamina needed for the dog to grow into a healthy adult - swimming is ideal as a muscle toner and respiratory enhancer) there will not be a problem.

Dog parks, by their nature, are not the ideal place to take an adolescent entire male.

Very quick answer - get the dog neutered and concentrate on getting verbal control - the moment you have to step in physically is a crucial one....it is a reprimand for bad behaviour and should be seen as such by the dog. This is seen as very "iffy" in the current trends of dog training. There are, however, times when your dog needs to face the consequences of it's choices. Being a large, entire male displaying aggression of any kind your dog is expecting a consequence. If you drag him away telling him loudly, "No!" then he hears the leader getting upset, assumes it is for the same reason he is upset (another dog daring to think it has the right to a water source when he has clearly made it his own!) and is encouraged by the leader to become more vociferous over the water source.
That is, obviously, not your intention.
You need to do 4 things - get the dog neutered, avoid dog parks for a while, go to a training class (not because you need help to train your dog - but as an alternative socialising environment for the dog) and learn how to correct the dog when he goes against something you are SURE he has been trained to do.
Proper correction is a fundamental tool, is an inhertited expectation and a crucial experience for all mammals if they are to survive.

So - there is the short answer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[anna_66]

Thanks for the advice everyone:)

[micki76]

Excellent advise as always, Carrie! :)

Sorry you're facing these issues with Bon, Anna. How much longer were you planning on leaving him intact? I'll admit that I don't know much about giant breeds, but I would think snip time must be getting close. :) :eek:

[anna_66]

Originally posted by micki76
I would think snip time must be getting close. :) :eek:
We wanted to wait about 2 years. That's what everyone I know has told me and what I've gotten from the research I've done.

[shais_mom]

To be fair Anna, to Bon I am not entirely sure his issue with Keegan was all his fault of course. You know how my jealous gurl is when Mommy touches or loves on another dog. And of course I was loving on Bon and Keegan did her thing. And Bon of course wasn't going to put up with that just like any of them :(
I have heard several times that the neutering and size difference is bogus and it is healthier for the dog to be neutered. I really honestly don't know but with aggression tendencies in any dog I guess I lean more towards neutering.
I don't know but I hope you get this figgered out b/c I would miss the Bon Bon boy!

[Dixieland Dancer]

Originally posted by anna_66
We wanted to wait about 2 years. That's what everyone I know has told me and what I've gotten from the research I've done.

I'm not sure I would wait that long. If you intend to get a behavioral benefit out of neutering him, the earlier the better. At adult onset, the behaviors can become conditioned responses more than hormonal responses.

I would consider neutering him earlier than the two years you suggested for a couple of reasons. 1. He is showing signs of behavior that would benefit from neutering. 2. You actively take him to the dog park. Most people who show and breed (where I think you have gotten most of your information) are not taking their dogs to the dog park. Being at a dog show is a much different environment than taking your pet to the dog park.

I believe you enjoy taking the dogs to the park for a run. I know I do! Unfortunately, a lot of owners take their dogs to the park that don't consider other dogs. You experienced that with the dog at the watering hole. If you call your dog and it doesn't come, then you don't have control of your dog and it shouldn't be off leash (my opinion). Most of the people I encounter at the park fit that category. :( That's why I am always on the guard when I'm at the park. I don't worry about Dixie because she has an air about her that says "I'm the queen" and other dogs just seem to respect that. But Dusty is a different story. Other dogs seem to want to "challenge" him all the time. :( One thing I have done with Dusty that has helped tremendously is the park is not just a playground. I also take him aside and practice his obedience. All the distractions there make it a perfect place to proof all the things we work on at home. And I feel certain if he can listen and do what I tell him there, he can do it anywhere!

I'm more familiar with Goldens and their growth patterns so these are guidelines from my experiences with them.... A large male is grown height wise by the time they are 9 - 12 months of age. However, they continue to develope and fill out for at least another year. The bones are still soft and pliable until aroung 24 months of age. Even if they are intact, I will not jump the dog or do anything that will affect the developement of the soft bones. That is why I don't agree with dogs doing agility or advanced classes of obedience (jumps) before they are two. It can cause hip problems. Most people think hip problems are heriditary but they can also be aggrevated by environment. At two the dogs bones are formed and become harder. Take for instance the fact that you can't have an OFA hip certification until the dog is 24 months old. That is exactly why!

Taking all that into consideration, if Bon was my dog, I would have him neutered at 1 year of age. I would not wait until he is two. I just would take extra caution not to do anything that would possibly cause bone growth problems. Water exercise is the best type of exercise possible and with summer coming, I'm sure you can find a place to let him swim!

I think you are a strong alpha leader and continued training to make sure you have strong, enforced obedience commands for Bon are very necessary. He will benefit from all the socialization you can give him as well as advanced training.

[ParNone]

Hi anna!

Not to make it anymore confusing, but also take into consideration that neutering may not totally alleviate the issue.

I had Gully neutered before 7 mos and he showed some aggression after being neutered. He really loves his food and does not like Oz and Murph coming near it. He seems to fully trust me, so I've had no issue. I've even been able to take a cooked pork bone directly from his mouth, but other dogs is a different story. Oz is not too big of an issue, because Oz doesn't challenge him, if Gully gives out some signals to back off. Murph, however, due to being old and a terrier, is a different story. He doesn't see and hear as good as he use to, so I don't think he picks up on Gully's body language. And he'll just march himself up to Gully's bowl and push Gull out of it. Then when Gull tells him to back off, he won't. So far it's all been posturing, some growling and air snapping between them, no actual fighting.

Murph being so small and fragile now, I worry about Gull hurting him without even trying though. Can't magically resolve the issue by neutering, because they're all neutered. So I keep up with making sure none of them get anything for free. Everybody must Sit or Down for treats or dinner. And once they do I give Gully his first. That seems to have helped tons. Also, when Gully's eating, I keep Murph away from him, even to the point that if Murph finishes his treat first, I pick Murph up off the ground, until Gull is finished with his. Me being more aware and keeping consistent with training has been key.

Les...

[lizbud]

Originally posted by Dixieland Dancer
I'm not sure I would wait that long. If you intend to get a behavioral benefit out of neutering him, the earlier the better. At adult onset, the behaviors can become conditioned responses more than hormonal responses.

I would consider neutering him earlier than the two years you suggested for a couple of reasons. 1. He is showing signs of behavior that would benefit from neutering. 2. You actively take him to the dog park. Most people who show and breed (where I think you have gotten most of your information) are not taking their dogs to the dog park. Being at a dog show is a much different environment than taking your pet to the dog park.



Anna,

The quote from Candy's post really makes a lot of sense to me.
I think two years is a very long time to wait, especially if you want
to get the benifits of solializing Bon at the dog park.I do know
other dogs react differently to an un neutered dog. Don't know
why, but they do. Some thing to think about anyway.

[Cincy'sMom]

I think everyone has given you some good things to think about and research, so I won't add too much :)

I think you said the first time in Dayton, he started to "have issues" immediately. But what about the most recent time, with the water dish?

Reason I ask, was just a thought I had. In Findlay, there didn't seem to be any problems until later in the afternoon. Is it possible, Bon getting tired is a contributing factor? Not to say that is only only thing going on, but maybe for a while shorter trips to the park would help? Or let him play a bit, then remove him from the park, for a quick snooze, and let him back at it? I know at dayschool they have the puppies take more naps, then the older dogs, and it seems to help.

I think you and Mark both have done a great job with Bon. You started training him early, and have socialized him early. I hope this is just a bump in the road, as he goes through those "teenage" years. As Staci said, we'd sure miss Bon if he couldn't come to the park anymore!!

[wolf_Q]

I think that everyone has given some great advice in this thread. I can't help but say that I'm wondering if Nebo could have caused some of Bon's problems. :( It sounded like Bon had been fine until Nebo stayed there. Nebo is one of those dogs like Shelteez said that can react poorly to an intact dog, especially dogs that are bigger than him. They got along very well and played until they started trying to mount eachother or food was involved. I don't know if them getting pissy with eachother could have made Bon leary of other dogs.

I really do not think Bon is aggressive he's testing things and seeing what he can get away with right now. Nebo does not like to share water at the park either, he's never got into a fight with a dog over it, just growled at them.

Although I think neutering greatly helps, even with the reaction other dogs will give him it isn't the quick fix. Nebo was socialized a ton plus neutered at 4 months old and he has his moments still. I'm not sure if I would wait fully 2 years but if that is what you think is best for him then you should do it.

[slleipnir]

I didn't read the posts, but here is my opinion on dog parks.

I use to love them, and take Josie there all the time. However, the exact same thing you are talking about Bon happened to Jo. One day she just decided she didn't like the way some dog 'looked' at her I guess, cause she growled at him. She's been dog aggressive ever since. I've talked to a few trainers, and they both tell me they get a lot of people who's dogs become dog aggressive from being at the dog park. I won't take my dogs there anymore, or to any dog park unless it's for a PT meeting...

Josie doesn't mind SOME dogs, but she will attack other dogs. She growls at them and just hates them. She was always VERY good around dogs. I duno, maybe think about going back next time? Is there somewhere else he could run?? I'm no dog expert, but this is just from my experience and what others told me

I guess some dogs just aren't that nice. Perhaps they do something to other dogs that angers them? I have no idea.

[slleipnir]

BTW, Josie was an older dog when this started. She was probably 4? And it only started after I had been taking her to the dog park a lot

[anna_66]

Originally posted by Cincy'sMom
I think you said the first time in Dayton, he started to "have issues" immediately. But what about the most recent time, with the water dish?

Ok, I'm not quite sure if I'm answering this right but I'll try.

The very first time we went to Dayton was a couple days after Findlay. Everything was ok at first but then another dog started following him around and it looked like something was going to happen and then Nebo jumped in.
Then the next time was the next week. As soon as we got there I guess you'd say he was apprenhensive (hair raised on his butt and neck). But we would visit each dog and move on and he was fine. The waterbowl incident was the very same day and he had already met the pup he jumped at 10 min earlier.

I do think in Findlay he was getting tired, but Mark and I agreed that it seemed like the other dogs pretty much started it with him...expecially Woody. Because I don't remember him growling at another dog till that all happened.

I sure don't want to leave him at home and of course I'm going to keep trying. It seems he really wants to play with them but like some of the others have said he's just testing the waters:o
I think next time I go to Dayton it will be just me and him and then we'll see how he does. I'll let you know:D

***And Amy (wolf_q) I do not think in the least that Nebo had anything to do with how Bon acted. I can't believe you'd think that, you silly girl you:p They did have their little disagreements but after all...it was Nebo who jumped in and stopped anything that may have happened with that other dog! ***

[bckrazy]

I really don't have much advice to give, except that I have noticed that every intact male I've met at dog parks was overly picked on by all of the other dogs, especially neutered males, and challenged constantly. I totally understand your wanting to wait to neuter Bon. . . just something to think about and try to notice if that's what is annoying him. Bon looks like the sweetest pup and it sounds like you guys are doing everything to set him up to be a social, well-adjusted adult. He probably is testing his boundaries, and going through the obnoxious crazy teenager stage :) good luck with everything