Raw meat problems..

[bckrazy]

I notice that whenever Gonzo gets raw meat, it makes him sick. He gets knuckle bones with only a small amount of raw meat on them, but he still gets sick. They're always fresh from the market, frozen, and thawed in the fridge or microwave.

He *never* gets diarrhea from his kibble or treats or anything, but we gave him a knuckle bone yesterday and he got it bad. It was so gross. He usually only goes potty 2 times a day, and they are solid. Last night, I put him in the laundry room because he had gone potty 5 times yesterday and I was afraid he would have to go in the night, which he did! All over the floor! Thank gawd it was on the tile, but I hate it when he is sick, and I really do not even want to give him raw bones anymore...

He should be used to raw bones/meat by now, he has gotten knuckle bones weekly or monthly for the past year at least! He always gets "the runs" with them, and he seems to dislike raw meat.. I know a lot of people swear by raw bones, but I would rather give him greenies, other chews/toys and smoked bones, and just brush his teeth more than have him sick!

I just wanted to know other peoples opinions? Are there better bones to give that might not upset his stomach?

[sammy101]

honestly,i wouldnt feed him raw meat anymore if its making him sick,especially if he hasnt gotten used to it by now.Its just my opinion.And i dont know much about the raw meat diet.

[Christiansmommy]

I did the raw diet with Dale for a while, and I just found it wasn't for us. I didn't like feeding him bones, even though they were raw, and not brittle/splintering bones, I just felt uncomfortable doing it...he loved the raw meat...but kibble just works better for us...if i were you, and was noticing those signs, I would stop the bones...just my opinion...

[dragondawg]

The last time I got into a thread involving raw meat it was on another forum. The owner fed their dog raw chicken, and ended up with 3 days of diarrhea. When I suggested that raw chicken is inherently contaminated on the surface with enteric bacteria especially various Salmonella serotypes, they came out of the woodwork at me. One poster was really bouncing off the walls at my suggestion that raw chicken should never be fed. They argued that Europeans regularly ate raw meat without problems and thrived on it. In the end I suggested that at next Thanksgiving they eat their Turkey raw, and let me know how it came out in the end.

The raw or BARF diet is sort of like religion. If you are a believer, then nothing will sway your thoughts or course. A lot of emotions come into play with the idea that raw meat is natural or more healthy than the mysterious dog food.

My basic premise on feeding dogs human like food is that if I wouldn't eat it, then I'm not going to be feeding it to my puppies. An interesting article to read is :

BARF myths (http://www.secondchanceranch.org/rawmeat_crane.html)

Note the interesting discussion about bones and fur and the diet of Wolves.

None the less...If you are going to feed a raw meat diet then it is critical you avoid bacterial contamination of the meat. You must be confident your source is handling the meat correctly. It has been said that ideal is to obtain the meat from the packing house directly - where a premium is placed on keeping the meat free from contamination. Choose your source wisely. Even then one would want to freeze it for storage, and blanch the meat by dipping in boiling water for a few minutes to clean off the surface. Assuming you have freed the meat of contamination, then the next question is whether the diet is as balanced per nutritional needs as a high quality commercial dog food?

What you probably ran into with the meat on the bone was not only bacterial contamination, but also the toxins being produced by the bacteria. This feeds back on the idea the meat served your dog should be fresh, and not sitting in a meat counter for a long period of time. Who knows the history of that knuckle bone? Usually the toxins produce an immediate short term affect, whereas a true bacteria infection of the gut may last up to a week plus.

My puppies past and present have thrived on the Propet brand of dog food, although there are many other brands that are probably equivalent. When in need of a chew- rawhide of a particular brand they get. My little male lab/mix 55 lbs of energy is currently giving a rawhide bone a going over as I type this. That's not to say he isn't delighted when he or his sister find a deer bone in the woods! They keep on wanting to cheat. :D

[cali]

its called detox, he is eating kibble and then you give him a raw bone. that is a problem with some dogs its fine but for many its a no-no. why? because kibble digests really really slow, while raw digests in about 1 minute, and this will make him sick. what you may want to do is give him a bone in the morning and give him kibble at night, or give him kibble in the morning and dont let him anywhere near kibble for the next 10 hours or so THEN let him have a bone. he may still have detox for the first while, and it may last a long time if you dont give the bone every day.

[Giselle]

I'm a future BARFer/Pitcairn/Schultze/Lonsdale, depending on my dog's preferences. Honestly, I think the answer is simpler than "detox" or bacterial contamination. Quite frankly, when a kibble fed dog is introduced to a raw bone....They love it! That is, if you give a recreational bone to a normal healthy dog, the dog will most likely grab it from your hands and run to it's safe place and just go crazy over it. To the loving owner, this gives them a sense of relief and gratitude. However, the kibble fed dog should never be given a raw rec bone for a prolonged period of time. Why? No matter what change you give a dog, the flora of a dog's GI tract is disturbed. When you introduce a bone with, presumably, a lot of marrow, the dog ingests more than his/her GI tract can handle. It goes for any dog, raw fed or not. Thankfully, Giselle has an iron stomach and she can safely chew on a rec bone for as long as she wants. She can bury it and let those wonderful enzymes overtake her rec bone and dig it back up to eat later on. I don't think it has anything to do with bacterial contamination so long as you safely handle it and buy it from a butcher deemed safe for humans. Heck, if I eat too many spicy things, the same happens to me (although that was a little too much info, eh?).

[Shelteez2]

Well I don't know....

The shelties get kibble and raw all the time. Somtimes I feel like giving them a whole raw meal and they don't get kibble that day, and sometimes I only feel like giving them half of a raw meal and so they get kibble as well.
Additionally when they get a rec bone it's almost always on days they have kibble. Again, never a problem.

So I know that doesn't help you any, but just wanted to share my side.

Perhaps Gonzo just has a sensitive stomach? Or perhaps fasting him before giving him a bone will help. Or perhaps he just doesn't do well with beef bones. Who knows. If you'd like the link to another board I post on with many knowledgeable people who feed raw please PM me. :)

[bckrazy]

wow ^_^ thanks for all of the replies, everybody! Its great to get so many perspectives on it... even though it makes this even more confusing for me! -g-

I definitely agree with you guys, Sammy and Christians mommy! The most important thing is that Gonzo is healthy, and I hate seeing him sick.

Cali, I didn't know about a detox process :confused:... I would've thought he'd be detoxed by now, and I dont know if I can stand seeing him go through being all sick and uncomfortable. I might try to give him a raw knuckle bone in a few weeks, with the meat cut off and sanitized in hot water, with no kibble afterwards. I did give him breakfast AND dinner that day, I kind of felt like it might be too much. Hes going in to his vet for a check-up next week anyway, I'll talk to her about it. Thanks a lot Cali, and Giselle's mommy.

Dragondawg, that was very informative! thanks! :) I agree, I have heard SO many opinions for and against and neutral toward BARFing, its almost overwhelming. I've heard some vets tell me my dog will DIE from bacteria and blockages if I give him raw bones and meat (these same vets SWEAR that pedigree and science diet are the best kibbles in the world, though ;)), some swear by it. He eats a very good kibble, Solid Gold. I always supervise him while he's chewing on a bone, but I do worry a lot about not only the bacteria on that bone, also the bacteria it creates in our house and even when he eats it on the porch. I do have a little baby brother, I would die if he ever got sick due to this. What brand of rawhide do you get? I've always been told to stay away from rawhides, that they swell up in the dogs stomaches and are unhealthy.... but I really dont know :p

Shelteez, I think he might have a sensitive stomach... honestly, I don't know if raw bones are worth him getting sick :o

[Giselle]

Honestly, he's probably just overdosing himself on the bone marrow. That stuff is incredibly rich (and nummy! LOL). A family member overdosed Giselle with chicken liver and we had the Big D. Nothing a 24-hour fast couldn't fix:) Detox doesn't usually happen on rec bones. The amount of raw bones is minute compared to the amount of kibble. The whole point of detox is where the body is switched onto a diet in which it is given the chance to rid itself of toxins previously hidden due to the previous diet. Gonzo is basically on the same diet, however, it's just augmented with raw bones. I highly doubt it's detox.;)

I was also stuck in the middle for quite a long time. Eventually, the pros outweighed the cons. I honestly have not heard of a case where a raw bone obstructed the tract or a dog who contracted a sickness via E. Coli or Salmonella because of raw meat.

I follow the Golden Food Rule: As long as your dog is healthy and happy on the food, then stick with it. So far, Lucky has slowly detiorated on any and all kibble. We've tried multiple brands and nothing has improved. In fact, he began to develop hot spots, a smelly coat, bleeding/itchy paws, and numerous bouts of the Big D. I decided to give EVO a try, and it helped....for a little while. His hotspot is going away, but his energy level is at an all time low. And, the more I think about it...dogs weren't made to eat kibble. The idea of a 100% balanced meal every day for the rest of their lives is, imo, a bit repulsive. In the beginning, I was skeptical and the idea was almost ludicrous. In the blank spaces where my mind would drift, I began to realize that NO, dogs weren't meant to eat kibble. And that is my understanding of things and Raw is how my dogs will eat. Anyhow....off the soap box....:o

Re: Rawhides. I would never feed my dogs rawhide for the reasons you stated above:) While I've never heard of personal experiences with raw bones obstructing the GI tract, I *have* heard of rawhide incidences. Perhaps it's just the sheer fact that rawhides are more accessible and common than raw bones. Anything's possible.:)

Bckrazy, go with whatever works:). I've found that starchy green toothbrushes aren't my favorite teeth cleaners (and irritate Lucky's stomach), rawhides have too much danger in them, and brushing my own teeth is a pain, much less brushing a dog's teeth. LOL. Alas, I have come to the conclusion that RMBs and rec bones are my favorite teeth cleaners. They really are Nature's toothbrush!

[Giselle]

Also, I wanted to add: Try scooping out the bone marrow with a spoon. If you're feeling confident, you can leave a bit in to entice him. Otherwise, scoop out the marrow and just let him rip at the shreds of meat on the bone. Good Luck!

[bckrazy]

thanks Giselle :) I cannot believe you are younger than me. I feel so stupid... lmao... but, exactly what is a "recreational bone"? Just like, a beef or chicken bone? ^_~

[bckrazy]

0.o.. Also, have you talked to Di lately? If you haven't, you need to PM her and ask her whats up!

oh no. -was not supposed to say anything- I need to just stop talking ^^

[Giselle]

LOL. Aw, thanks:o

Recreational Bones ("rec" bones) are the heavy, weight bearing bones. This includes cow femurs, marrow bones, shins, knuckles, etc.

RMBs - acronym for raw meaty bones.

*Yeah, I noticed that, too! I'll IM her later on...

[dragondawg]

Not sure I can buy the detox theory, as that would imply the toxins are in the dry dog food, which is something else I do not believe is the case. However a sensitive stomach type of dog could easily get upset with a change of diet be it dog to human or human to dog food as was suggested.

Probably your best try at keeping the knuckle bone is to cut the meat off, and sterilize by blanching in boiling water for a few minutes to remove surface contamination. No doubt dogs prefer the real bone. When mine get a hold of a deer bone in the woods there is a definite wag in their tails, until I take it away from them. :(

The Vet was quite adamant when I got my previous dog, that bones were evil. Confession: I did give her a steak Tbone about 3-4 times in the 11 years I had her. Having part Labs the golden rule is that you either give them something to chew on or they will find the nearest chair etc. So treats or teeth tartar bones just wouldn't cut it with these guys. They would gobble the tartar bone down within seconds and drool for more. So far my furniture remains in good condition.

The current rawhide of choice for my puppies is the Harper's brand sold at Walmart. I selected that brand because it was made from American beefhides at least 13 yrs ago. Not sure but I believe they have gone S. America now for their source. If I could find another American brand I would prefer it. I sort of worry about the preparation and contamination factor of foreign sources. You do have to look at the ends or knobs and make sure you don't see discolorization or green mold. I found one of those recently.

The largest danger for rawhide is if the dog removes one end, and tries to swallow it whole. Besides the possibility of choking on it, that would be a large enough piece to block things up. As long as they chew it, even if it swells the chances of blockage is slim. Not only will food pass around it initially, but the digestive juices will eventually soften and digest what is basically protein plus fat.

The other thing I do is allow them to chew on the rawhide for only a short period of time, maybe 1/2 hr. That reminds me...just had to take em away for the night from the puppies. Then of course I had to give them some water upstairs because they are too lazy to go downstairs for a drink. Now where was I... oh the idea is to stretch that 11 inch rawhide bone through the week. A little bit every night satisfies the chewing urge, and keeps em happy.

[schteve_d]

I have no scientific data, but I have fed Bud and Tash soup bones and I guess what you would call knuckle bones (great big bones you buy at the butcher's) since I have had them, which is almost ten years. I actually don't remember where the suggestion came from or if it is based on any fact at all, but I have always boiled them for about ten minutes (and then obviously cooled them) before I have given them to them and have never, ever had a problem (which over ten years, I believe to be a pretty good record!!). But, I have to admit that Buddy has gotten into some pretty rotten "stuff" over the years, Deer bones that have been sitting for God-knows-how-long, etc. and have never had a problem either, I suppose it depends on the dog. But I'd say it's worth a try, boil the bones before giving them to Gonzo and see what happens, it certainly can't hurt!!

[bckrazy]

thanks everyone! this has helped a lot :)

I'll keep you all posted!

[cali]

you can boil SOUP bones first, but NEVER EVER feed other kinds of bones that have been cooked in any way first. raw bones are soft and pliable but cooked bones are hard brittle and they splinter. I gave my dogs a store bought bone once, it was smoked, within seconds it was broken into sharp, swallowable size peices so I took it away. the nylabones are even worse ending up with needle sharp spikes all over the the peices that the dogs would break off.

and dragondawg the toxins ARE in the kibble.. thats the whole point, kibble is packed full of fillers and chemicals and digests very slowly, while raw diets digest in seconds, my dogs have to potty seconds after the finish eating. my dogs throw up their food or get the runs also if they are under a lot of stress, so basicly if they are going to be in a stressful situation we dont feed them till AFTER something stressful.

[dragondawg]

Cali,

Could you specify what these toxins are?

Here's the ingredients in the Propet performance brand I feed my two puppies (Female 2 yrs, 50%GP/50% Lab+something approx 75 lbs, Male 1.5 yrs, Black Lab/mix approx. 55 lbs), probably close to 3 cups per day spread between 2 feedings (larger feeding at night):

Ingredients: Chicken meal, brewers rice, chicken, chicken fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols and citric acid), corn gluten meal, ground wheat, ground yellow corn, dried beet pulp, dried egg product, natural flavors, dicalcium phosphate, canola oil, fish meal, brewers dried yeast, potassium chloride, salt, dried yucca schidigera, DL-methionine, vitamins (choline chloride, vitamin A acetate, D-activated animal sterol (source of vitamin D-3), vitamin E supplement, ascorbic acid, niacin, riboflavin, pyridoxine hydrochloride, thiamine mononitrate, calcium pantothenate, folic acid, biotin, vitamin B-12 supplement), minerals (magnesium sulfate, ferrous sulfate monohydrate, iron proteinate, zinc oxide, zinc proteinate, manganous oxide, manganese proteinate, copper sulfate, copper proteinate, calcium iodate, sodium selenite)

They gobble it down rapidly. They do their doggy duties usually morning and night. No irregularities, no flaculance, no diarrhea, no mucus, no blood or tar stools, no nausea. A previous dog ate it for 11 years (including the maintenance formula), without any problems. If toxins exist in this dog food then I must conclude the unseen toxins in the food I feed my dogs must be healthy toxins which of course is a contradiction of terms. One might argue that the processing or manufacture of dog food introduces toxins. But then again it could also be argued that the beef cattle in a field are eating toxic substances too.

What would you conclude if you gave your dogs the same food as I give mine, and they got sick in the manner you have seen in the past? Take a look at the ingredients and pick a food allergy. A lot of the dog foods do have numerous common components. If one has a dog allergic to a particular item in that list it might involve quite a bit of searching to find a brand formulation that can get around the allergy involved. You apparently have avoided the need for an extensive trial and error search for the non-allergenic dog food by defining your dogs diet with known raw meat ingredients. You have probably done a lot of research to make sure the diet is balanced per minerals and vitamins, and your dogs no longer have the allergic reactions as before. But for every dog likes yours, there are many many more that thrive on commercial dog food without any problems.

I would agree that Nylabones are not the best. I've heard of young dogs grinding their teeth down to the gums chewing on Nylabones.

[rebeccarichardson]

Each time I've given my [young] and extremely healthy Australian Cattle Dog a raw [beef] bone, she has gotten sick. Needless to say, I no longer do it.

[IRescue452]

Every dog has a different tolerance for what they can and can't eat. Just like people, individuals can get sick off of certain foods. I personally don't give my dogs raw meat because of the bacteria that is found in it. I get sick off pork but can eat any other meat. I suggest the simple solution of not giving it to your dog if it makes him sick.