my personal experiences with greyhound racing

[true]

sorry, this is long, but worth it. id really appreciate it if you read it all.

ive been involved with greyhoudns for about 4 years now. ive worked with several adoption gourps, been to the annual greyhound gathering (4000 hounds!) a couple of times, visited several tracks and kennels, worked with dogs straight from the track, worked at a greyhound kennel for a day, read everything that each side has to say, become close friends with people who devote their lives to greyhound adoption (both pro racing groups and anti racing groups) ran several websites for greyhounds, etc.

i am NOT an expert, but i AM someone who has seen a lot of things.

i do not see racing as the horrible thing i once did. it is better than it used to be, however, there are still things that are very wrong.

when i first got online, i was rabidly AR (anti-racing) and believed the old number of 20k greyhounds killed every year. then pro-racing people on greytalk posted how racing was a good thing and had all these reason they gave that seemed like they made sense. and i started to even like racing.

but then i started getting involved more with greyhound adoption. on one hand i was reading about how racing was great, but then on the other hand i was seeing dogs stright from the track that had deep muzzle sores and scars on their muzzle from past sores, covreed in ticks and fleas, full of worms, etc. i also had many other experiences (nothign i read, things i experienced myself) that made me pause to reconsider believing all these happy things i had heard form pro racing people.

ao i still have many many problems with racing.

-i know some people crate their dogs while they are at work, but to me there is a difference between 8 hours and 18+ hours at the track

-i know that there are many working dogs otu there, agility and show dogs too, but to me a big difference is that the majoritiy of those live in a home as a pet, not at a kennel

-it bothers me that i see dogs infested with fleas and ticks from the track. it bothers me that so many have to be wormed before they can go into a home. its sad so many of the dogs have parasites.

-im saddened that someone (who works her butt off for the dogs btw) down at a track in florida said that just recently they got up to only 50% adoption. white light to the other half.

-all the euthenization records from 2003 and 2004 that i have flipped thru from a southern track make me sad as well

-hearing a track kennel owner point to a few dogs and tell me that their owners wanted them put to sleep after they broke their legs makes me hurt inside

-the recent case in iowa where a man neglected 33 dogs til they had no food and water and were full of parasites makes me sad (thank god they did suspend the guy. too bad it got this far http://www.wcfcourier.com/articles/2004/11/09/news/regional/bf4140f685edc7f686256f4700502798.txt)

-the stench that i have smelled at a new england track kennel that made my friend almost puke was nto a good thing. i have been to other kennels that did not have this problem, but this one did, so it can happen)

-yes greyhounds are bred to run, and i love watching my girl run when she pleases and where she pelases at the park. however, when ive watched the races, teh dogs run for 30 seconds in a prescribed path. while the dogs liek this as well, to me it pales in comparasion to watchign my dog run after the ball that i have thrown, her picking it up and taking a victory lap around the park with it in her mouth, prancing and playing with the other dogs. and there are MANY days we go to the park where she decides she doesnt want to run. i want it to alwyas be up to her, when she runs, how long she runs, and where she runs.

-there have been several tracks that i have visited that have had no pamphlets, no posters, no nothing but a quick reference in the program to greyhound adoption. at two tracks i went ot the info coutner to ask aboutadoption and they had no info to give me. each place someone looked up in a book and wrote down the number on a scrap of paper, yet they had information and flyers at the booths for lunch specials and betting events. there was one track that did have an amazing adoption program that was very well promoted. i wish all tracks were like that. these other tracks tho, had posters for other things and none for greyhound adoption.

-the number of track websites that i have been to that have almost no information or info that is pushed to the side as an afterthought about greyhound adoption is pretty large. this saddens me in that having an extra web page and a big link to it on the track site would cost them not a single extra penny. i did an evaluation several months ago on all the track web sites if anyone would like to see it.

-whenever i see an adoption group having a raffle or auction or begging for donations reminds me that the people who are making money off the dogs (tracks, the state, kennel owerns, racing dog owners) are NOT covering all the costs of adoption. that doesnt mean that no one ever gives any money towards adoption of course, but the vast majority of dogs are vetted and palced by non profit adoption groups that have to work their behinds off to raise funds.

-its sad when i hear from people who work in the trenches of adoption who tell me that there have been dogs they have told kennel owners they would take, but were put down anyway. it doesnt make any kind of sense i know, but it has happened neumurous times

-personally i think its sad now that they do surgical insemination so taht bitches have larger litters than they naturally would. i didnt learn about that from AR people, rather from industry sites. also, wehn i look at a greyhound on greyhound-data.com and see that a bitch had litter after litter, pretty close together. it makes me sad.

-i know someone who has seen a trainer hit their dogs on the head with metal bowls. (dont tell me to report it, this person either has or hasnt, but that is their business, not mine, since i didnt witness it)

-i see and know of so many dogs with broken legs. generally the same leg. it happens over and over. i know that pets can break limbs, but it feels so wrong when you see the same injury happening all the time.

-i hear from different industry people that i know (and wont name for this reason) that they see people being cast out of the racing society for whistleblowing.

things are getting better, but dogs are still put down, dogs are still mistreated, i still see dogs in poor condition. and how can i support an industry while i still see that?

when there is 100% adoption and 100% financial responsibility by the industry, then i will no longer have to fight for the welfare of the dogs.

(im sure i have left plenty of things out, i will post them when i remember them)

[lizbud]

I would be interested in hearing about your experiences,
and what first hand knowledge you have about the condition
of ex-raceing dogs. I do have a question about the "pre-adoption" program that was talked about in the General thread.

How long has it existed and how exactly does it work ? I've
checked the racing asociation website on adoption, but this is
all I found: http://www.gra-america.org/adoptiondirectory.html

Thanks for any info you have.

[true]

i think pre-adoption isnt very common and/or is new. you can ask greyhounddaddy more about it.

[jcsperson]

After Desert Storm I decided to leave the Navy after 13 years to live a life of normalcy after one six-month cruise after another. In my first three years of marriage I saw my wife 15 months. In our letters where we discussed our life post-military, we came to the common conclusion that we wanted a dog to share our home.

We saw the National Geographic special on greyhound racing that depicted some horrible stories and we decided to rescue a greyhound. A few months later, in October 1993, we got JC (hence jcsperson), a red brindle male. We were told that 60,000 greyhounds were killed. Well, we saved 1. It was a start. We were also told that his kennel had gone out of business and the owner just closed the door and left the dogs to die in their crates. When a kennel worker with a guilty conscience finally called, the dogs had been there several days in their own feces and urine.

I was so angered I threw myself into fundraising and newsletter writing. My wife and I, a journalism major and and English major, wrote and published our group's newsletter, stuffed hundreds of envelopes, did Meet & Greets and repeated the stories our group leaders told us.

One day, when I was driving home to Ohio to visit my relations, I decided to visit Tri-State Greyhound Park in Charleston, WV. I expected a rat's nest, but the facade was quite nice. I went inside and was actually impressed with the grounds. I didn't buy anything so as not to contribute to the profit of the track, but waited to see the races not really knowing what to expect.

When the first race started I had positioned myself right on the fence at the end of the front straight. When the dogs went by I could physically feel my jaw drop and tears well up in my eyes. "My JC did this?" Race after race these magnificent dogs flew by me in such a display of athleticism that I just stood there enthralled and dumbfounded. It just wasn't possible I kept thinking over and over.

That was the Spring of 1994. Nothing changed except that my respect for JC as an athlete grew a hundred-fold. It was around that time that I realized I wanted to know more about him. I bought two books on greyhound pedigrees and researched his ancestors. I marveled at all the famous dogs in his pedigree and the care with which the bloodlines were preserved and nurtured by breeders over the years.

Still, 60,000 killed? It sickened me. In order to try to find more dirt on greyhound racing I took out a subscription to Greyhound Review. Right in first few pages there was a list of breedings and registrations for the past several years. I was surprised to find out that 34,746 greyhounds had been registered in 1994. I did a double take. I'm an English major---never was good at math---but how can you kill 60,000 a year if less than 35,000 are alive? Curious.

Shortly thereafter we became internet capable. Soon we were e-mailing a wide variety of greyhound people and actually met a couple who operated a kennel at the aforementioned Tri-State. We got a tour of the kennel and the farm. The kennel was far nicer than I expected. There was a whirlpool. It was immaculately clean. The dogs were sleek and well-groomed. Thre wasn't a speck of dirt, let alone a parasite to be found on any of their dogs. This was nothing like we were told to expect. A trip out to their small farm confirmed everything we had seen at the kennel.

Later I visited Wheeling. Interestingly, there was a kennel operating at there called Gulf & Bay Kennel. This was the kennel JC raced for at Melbourne. Not only were they not out of business, but they were thriving with bookings at two of the toughest, highest-paying tracks in the country. A phone call confirmed that they had, indeed, left Melbourne, but months after JC was on our couch. Very curious.

By this time I had seen literally hundreds of greyhounds, a great number right off the truck. Some looked tired and a little bewildered by their long journey, some had fleas and a tick or two, but for the most part they were clean and healthy and well groomed. The worst two or three dogs I ever saw were turn-backs from adoptive homes. One, Robby, we adopted at age 11 and had to have the majority of his teeth pulled. We didn't have much time with him, just 18 months.

Somewhere along the way, maybe around 2000, I realized I was no longer anti-racing. I still harbored a number of doubts, but I had seen myth after myth disproved right in front of my eyes---lies told by my AR adoption group straight to my gullible face. That especially bothered me because I went around angry about how my dog JC had been abused. It hurt at a viceral level. When I found out he had merely had a routine career for one of the better kennels in the country I was greatly relieved. My only anger was for those who had put me through that---who had played the pity angle so well I bought their message completely.

Around 2001 I heard about a dog named Talentedmrripley who was tearing up St. Pete. I started watching him on Rosnet. I found out that a dog closely related to one of my pets was a star at Jacksonville. I avidly followed his every race. When we found out a cousin of his was retired we adopted him. I got to know the breeder well---she's the same breeder of Greyhoundaddy's Sequoia. She patiently answered every question I had about our new adoptee and his great uncle whom she had also raised. Soon I met more breeders, kennel owners, trainers and dog owners---salt of the earth people.

I joined Global Greyhounds in 2002 and the NGA later that year. I purchased a puppy who will go on to race. I visit him often at the farm where he is being raised just two hours from here. It's clean. It's more well equipped than you can imagine with 50' x 50' puppy pens and a two acre sprint field. I could spend an hour describing it, but suffice it to say I trust my breeder to raise my puppy correctly. He is in good hands with her. I have purchased a female racer as a brood and as soon as her career is over she will be going to the farm and will have beautiful puppies. She raced AA, top grade, at Wheeling Downs, the best track in the country. Her aunt is an All American and her brother won a $50,000 stake. Her bloodlines are among the most successful in America. Four major sires have emerged from her damline.

I won't be making more puppies than there would already have been because she would have been bred by whoever was lucky enough to buy her. It happened to be me. She is the perfect example to perpetuate the breed.

Pardon my bias, but greyhounds are the most carefully bred, best documented breed on earth. My interest in pedigrees has led me to being invited on the staff of Greyhound-data.com, the world's largest breed database with 1,000,000 greyhounds dating back to the 1700s. Hip dysplasia is unknown in greyhounds. The gene pool is vast and undiluted by mediocrity. There are no back-yard breeders. By breeding to a purpose rather than breeding to a standard, greyhounds have remained viable while many others can no longer function at the tasks for which they were originally intended.

It costs $3500 to $5000 to raise just one greyhound to the track-ready age of 18 months. No one has yet to explain to me how a world-class athlete can be brought to that standard and maintained in peak condition while being abused and neglected. One has to suspend every sliver of common sense they have to believe it.

I am fully aware that everything isn't perfect in greyhound racing, but I see it getting better every year. I don't wear blinders, but I also don't see evil in everything and everyone as some ARs do. They are still citing impossible numbers and clinging to long disproved myths like puppy-culling and the dangers of 4D meat. Speaking as one who has had lies about my own dog told right to my face, I know that exaggration and distortion are a daily fact with them. Most have little or no experience in greyhounds and extrapolate isolated incidents into the "industry standard." Some raise tremendous amounts of money from gullible people, as I once was, to wage political war on the industry. In the case of some extremist groups, not one penny goes to adoption. It all goes to propaganda campaigns and legal bills.

[greysandmoregreys]

As long as we base our knowledge on things that we have seen with our own eyes then I never have a problem with it.

I know that before I ever got into the whole racing greyhound thing my mom would tell me stories of how she would go to the vets office and there would be "a pile" of dead greyhounds in the back of the vets office. This was back in the early 80's

In the early 90's I was going to school for dog grooming and needed to find a night job and wanted to work with animal. There was a local dog track where I lived so I thought what better place.

Here I saw good and bad. The way I looked at it was I would report the bad and have the proper people handle it along with a big tongue lashing at the accused.

I felt and still do feel that I make a difference in the dogs lives. That the dogs that are within my care will be guanteed a life of retirement, in an adoption home when there work is done.

I have gotten the calls from owners that have told me that once there dog is done racing to put them down. This is where I feel I make the greatest difference. I explain why this is not the correct way to handle this. I put these people in contact with the groups that I work with so they can understand that this is the best choice for the hounds.
IF I didn't do this who would? Who would change there minds?

I'm in the business because I love the hounds and truely feel that I make a differance.

[true]

heather, i appreciate that there are people like you in the business.

thank you for all of your hard work :)

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by true
-it bothers me that i see dogs infested with fleas and ticks from the track. it bothers me that so many have to be wormed before they can go into a home. its sad so many of the dogs have parasites.
I have seen literally hundreds of dogs come right off the truck when I volunteered for my adoption group. My experience is that dogs in the condition you describe are the exception. If they come straight from the track they were immaculate. If they were kept temporarily at a farm and then shipped, there was a greater likelihood of ticks and fleas. We rarely encountered a wormy dog.


-im saddened that someone (who works her butt off for the dogs btw) down at a track in florida said that just recently they got up to only 50% adoption. white light to the other half.

-all the euthenization records from 2003 and 2004 that i have flipped thru from a southern track make me sad as well[
Even if the 50% figure were true it would not be typical. 95% of the problems in greyhound racing are concentrated in a handful of low-end tracks. These are precisely the tracks that are being targeted by RaceForAdoption.com.


-hearing a track kennel owner point to a few dogs and tell me that their owners wanted them put to sleep after they broke their legs makes me hurt inside[
I know this happens, but again, this is not typical.


-the recent case in iowa where a man neglected 33 dogs til they had no food and water and were full of parasites makes me sad (thank god they did suspend the guy. too bad it got this far
I called the NGA and this farm was inspected twice in 2003 and once early in 2004. The state of Iowa inspected it annually for a total of three per year and this year was the first year a problem was noted. The farm passed every inspection it ever had until this last one. I don't know the details yet, but whatever changed this man's way of operating must have been dire. A previous article suggests he was very ill.

The system worked. A substandard farm was shut down and his license to breed greyhounds suspended. It looks like he will lose his racing license as well.


-the stench that i have smelled at a new england track kennel that made my friend almost puke was nto a good thing. i have been to other kennels that did not have this problem, but this one did, so it can happen)
We've been through this one on GT. This is not typical, either. I have been to several turnout pens and a number of farms and never encountered a similar smell. If you ever come across this again, SAY SOMETHING. It is not the norm and is unnecessary.


-there have been several tracks that i have visited that have had no pamphlets, no posters, no nothing but a quick reference in the program to greyhound adoption. at two tracks i went ot the info coutner to ask aboutadoption and they had no info to give me. each place someone looked up in a book and wrote down the number on a scrap of paper, yet they had information and flyers at the booths for lunch specials and betting events. there was one track that did have an amazing adoption program that was very well promoted. i wish all tracks were like that. these other tracks tho, had posters for other things and none for greyhound adoption.

-the number of track websites that i have been to that have almost no information or info that is pushed to the side as an afterthought about greyhound adoption is pretty large. this saddens me in that having an extra web page and a big link to it on the track site would cost them not a single extra penny. i did an evaluation several months ago on all the track web sites if anyone would like to see it.
True and I have been through this one on GT, too. At least one of those tracks, Lincoln, already has 100% adoption. Further promotion would not improve their numbers.

Several tracks run adoption fairs and special events. Recently Southland, Shoreline, Wonderland and Raynham, just to name a few, had big, festive events featuring greyhound adoption.


-whenever i see an adoption group having a raffle or auction or begging for donations reminds me that the people who are making money off the dogs (tracks, the state, kennel owerns, racing dog owners) are NOT covering all the costs of adoption. that doesnt mean that no one ever gives any money towards adoption of course, but the vast majority of dogs are vetted and palced by non profit adoption groups that have to work their behinds off to raise funds.
This often has a great deal to do with politics. I know that most racing owners would rather give their dogs and a donation to a pro-racing adoption group than give them to an AR group for free. There are some cheap bastards who want to save some money and give them to anybody who will take them, but won't give a nickel to a group who is against racing. Imagine that.

Additionally, profit margins in racing have dropped substantially over the years. Part of it is because greedy politicians have taxed the gambling industry so heavily that bettors have a hard time making any money. Another part is the fact that ARA groups have slandered racing so badly that sponsors, TV and media shy away from it altogether because they fear the deluge of negative mail drummed up by those groups. This has hurt business, reduced profits, and ultimately worked against the dogs.


-personally i think its sad now that they do surgical insemination so taht bitches have larger litters than they naturally would. i didnt learn about that from AR people, rather from industry sites. also, wehn i look at a greyhound on greyhound-data.com and see that a bitch had litter after litter, pretty close together. it makes me sad.
This is a misinterpretation. The female releases only so many eggs per season. Regardless of what insemination process is used only so many puppies can be whelped. A sire with strong semen will impregnate as many eggs as surgical implants. Surgical techniques increase the likelihood of insemination and increase the number of eggs fertilized where a sire's semen is not necessarily strong or when the draw has been split a number of ways. When semen is frozen it is often split five ways so one ejaculate can impregnate five bitches. The "larger litter size" is meant where a sire's semen isn't strong or the ejaculate has been split a number of times.


-i know someone who has seen a trainer hit their dogs on the head with metal bowls. (dont tell me to report it, this person either has or hasnt, but that is their business, not mine, since i didnt witness it).
Hearsay. I'm not disputing that it happened, just that one could hardly say that one incident is typical of everything. The problem with relating a story like this is that it suggests that this sort of thing is typical. It's not.


-i see and know of so many dogs with broken legs. generally the same leg. it happens over and over. i know that pets can break limbs, but it feels so wrong when you see the same injury happening all the time. .
The right rear leg is the one that takes the most stress in racing. I think some breeders have made a mistake breeding dogs who have had this injury to bitches who also have. I prefer sires and dams with long, healthy careers to make for solid pups.

AGTOA has spent millions on research for a safer, more forgiving surface. Based on recent returns it looks like that is paying off.


-i hear from different industry people that i know (and wont name for this reason) that they see people being cast out of the racing society for whistleblowing.
It would be interesting to hear an instance of this. I have not heard of it and my guess is I know dozens more foiks in racing than True.


-things are getting better, but dogs are still put down, dogs are still mistreated, i still see dogs in poor condition. and how can i support an industry while i still see that?

when there is 100% adoption and 100% financial responsibility by the industry, then i will no longer have to fight for the welfare of the dogs.
They are much better. It looks very possible that full adoption could be achieved by 2007. If that happens then there will be no major breed of dog that can make that claim. I think the outlook for the breed, adoption, and even racing is bright.

[greysandmoregreys]

(posted by true)-i see and know of so many dogs with broken legs. generally the same leg. it happens over and over. i know that pets can break limbs, but it feels so wrong when you see the same injury happening all the time. .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



(posted by jcsperson)The right rear leg is the one that takes the most stress in racing. I think some breeders have made a mistake breeding dogs who have had this injury to bitches who also have. I prefer sires and dams with long, healthy careers to make for solid pups.

AGTOA has spent millions on research for a safer, more forgiving surface. Based on recent returns it looks like that is paying off.


Just want to post a little blurb on this situation. First with any sport whether that be tennis, runners, divers, or dog racing there always seems to be an injury that is prone to that sport.
Tennis you have tennis elbow, runners often shin splints, divers, divers ear, football, well there's to many of those to list :)

With dog racing the common major injury is the injured right rear leg.
I agree I hate to see any dog injured as well as anyone else out there that loves the dogs.

Now on to Martins post. Though I agree with most of it I do have to disagree in one point. There is one very well known stud dog that an injury had cut his racing career short. This stud is also well know to throw offspring that also tend to have short racing lives. Molotov.
I do agree that if your breeding within the Molotov line you should find a female that had a good strong racing career or if your using a female out of Molotov you should use a stud that also has a long racing career. To add some durability into the line.

That's all my 2 cents :)

[lizbud]

Well, nobody seems to have heard much or know much about
the pre-adoption question. So far, this is all I've found even
mentioning the idea & it still doesn't give specifics. I would think
it would be better promoted if it exists at all.


Adopting a Retired Racer


There are several ways to adopt a retired racing greyhound. If you know a racing owner you might be able to adopt directly from them, sometimes "pre-adopting" a dog that hasn't begun racing yet or one that is currently racing, then taking the dog when its' career has ended. Or get a dog the owner wants to place after its' racing days are over. Sometimes, the owner will trust a trainer to privately place a dog, also. These are ideal situations--for the experienced greyhound owner--but not very common.

Most greyhounds are turned over to independent adoption groups by their owners or trainers for placement and for the average prospective owner this is probably the best option. These groups are located all over the country so you don't have to live anywhere near a track or farm to be able to get a dog. Unfortunately, the politics of these groups is also all over the map. A few are openly pro-racing and have good connections within the racing community, working hand-in-hand with owners, trainers and farms to find homes for their dogs. They don't try to convince anyone that racing is evil or that the dogs are ill-treated during their careers. Many other groups are what could be called neutral: their policy is to not have a policy regarding racing. While they may have individual volunteers with strong opinions, as an entity they also don't push any anti-racing propaganda. The Greyhound Lovers League endorses both of these types of groups. (A few of these agencies are now also facilitating pre-adoptions as described above.)

Then we find the openly anti-racing groups. They usually use the pity angle to find homes for the dogs (and donations) and some of them may refuse to place a dog with anyone who doesn't buy into their beliefs. They have no volunteers with differing opinions. (Many of the neutral groups are off-shoots of these, the new groups started by volunteers who no longer believe the propaganda.) These anti-racing groups should be avoided if a person wants to simply have and enjoy a wonderful pet without being bombarded by myths and misinformation. The Greyhound Lovers League cannot endorse any anti-racing groups, no matter how many dogs they have found homes for or how much good they appear to do; they seek to destroy the racing industry and, in the process, do away with the breed as most of us know it.

There is one other good way to adopt a racing greyhound and this is highly recommended if you live in or near a state with live racing: right from the track. Many greyhound tracks have in-house adoption programs and/or adoption kennels funded at least in part by the tracks, kennels and owners and some "contract" with independent nonprofit adoption groups such as Greyhound Pets of America to handle this function. Since these are subsidized the cost to the adopter is often less than going through an adoption group elsewhere. And you know you're dealing with people who won't try to indoctrinate you against racing.

On the following pages we have listed the race tracks that have placement programs at their facilities and independent nonprofit groups we know are pro-racing or neutral--racing friendly. This latter group is difficult to identify, as adoption groups seldom advertise their positions on racing. As time goes on we hope to see the list grow as friendly groups come forward and identify themselves to us and the industry.



Track Adoption Programs Friendly Adoption Groups

[guster girl]

lizbud, I think maybe your pre adoption question got buried, it was surrounded by some pretty long posts! Maybe now someone will answer you. It obviously exists, considering greyhounddaddy has preadopted. And, I noticed that the article quoted even says "Most greyhounds are turned over to independent adoption groups by their owners or trainers for placement and for the average prospective owner this is probably the best option." so that is good!

[smokey the elder]

This is really interesting! I learned a lot. I didn't realize that greyhounds had such an impeccable genetic heritage. I hope people that breed them continue to practice this good husbandry, and that the tracks work together with adoption groups to find homes after they retire.

One question I did have: the hounds seem to have a lot of scars, and seem very thin when they come from the track. Is this normal? (I've never met one with a bad temperament.)

[guster girl]

Originally posted by smokey the elder
This is really interesting! I learned a lot. I didn't realize that greyhounds had such an impeccable genetic heritage. I hope people that breed them continue to practice this good husbandry, and that the tracks work together with adoption groups to find homes after they retire.

One question I did have: the hounds seem to have a lot of scars, and seem very thin when they come from the track. Is this normal? (I've never met one with a bad temperament.)

I think jcsperson answered this one in a thread that was deleted....I'm sure he'll answer it again, though. I don't think I've ever seen a dog with skin that thin that didn't have scars, regardless of it's past. I think what jcsperson said was that a lot of the scars come from the fact that they're around their littermates for several months and are always around other dogs during the whole training puppy phase. And, as for them being thin, I think that's normal, you're supposed to see their ribs and vertebrae. Again, though, I'm going mostly on what jcsperson previously said. And, some of it just from what I would think would be normal. :)

[Corinna]

I want to thank every one for such an informative thread and that no fighting has happened. I know any topic like this brings on such emotion filled posts. (eg. sled dogs had one for a while) I have learned a lot I'ts like any sport there are good and bad breeders and tracks. (80's we heard about horses at tracks)
I too am intrested in this preadoption program. It is an intresting topic could we please hear more about it from all of you or some one who is doing it. (perhaps the breeder you all are so keen on)

[guster girl]

Here's where greyhounddaddy talks about his preadopted puppy, Ice Princess. :)

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?threadid=63462&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

and, here's a thread for Icee also.....

http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?threadid=63645

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by smokey the elder
One question I did have: the hounds seem to have a lot of scars, and seem very thin when they come from the track. Is this normal? (I've never met one with a bad temperament.)
The best analogy to make is to compare a greyhound to a race car. 5,000 years of selective breeding has produced a dog that has a tremendous power to weight ratio. Like a race car that has no extraneous items on it and a thin aluminum body, greyhounds have almost no body fat and their skin is extremely thin.

Breeders keep litters together through 12 months of age and puppies play hard. Their teeth have not been worn down by use and are needle sharp. Anyone who has played with a puppy can attest to that.

As they get older their playful romping can occasionally turn into a fight and bites occur. Scars are very common in greyhounds---I've had five and not one was without a scar. Here's a pic of the famous sire Ample Time; note the scar on his side:

http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?showpic=5470&time=1083317350

Here's my late, greyt JC. Note the scars on his left flank (light lines):

http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?showpic=262351&time=1083317432

Note the difference in their appearence. Ample Time looks to be in racing trim, while JC had been a pet for a few years in that picture and weighed too damn much in my opinion. It's hard to keep them looking "racy."

Here's Kiowa Sweet Trey in race trim:
http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?showpic=264115&time=1083317456

Note the difference in Flying Penske in race condition and a more recent shot as a stud:
http://www.greyhound-data.com/d?i=80423

[7up]

Many of the scars you see on greyhouds are either from playing with the other puppies or just natural bumps and scrapes from being athletes. Their skin is very thin. When a younger dog gets a scar, it can start out very insignificant and end up looking a lot worse, simply because the skin stretched while their body grew and since scars do not grow hair, you end up with a much bigger scar that stands out and looks much worse than it actually was.

My first greyhound had unfortunately been in a fight when he was being transported with 5 other greyhounds. You have a bunch of dogs together and these things can happen. It is not common, but as we all know with any dogs it does happen. In his case, he had to have stitches in a lot of areas and part of his tail amputated. He came out of it just fine in the long run, but his scars did stretch in time and he ended up looking like "hell on wheels"! LOL He was still the happiest and most wonderful dog I have ever had in my entire life and to this day I still cry when I think about how much I miss him.

Their weight is what it should be for optimal performance. When they become pets and their lifestyle changes, they only need to put on about 5 pounds to stay at a healthy weight. Much more than than and you can easily see the beginnings of an overweight dog who will have health problems as a result of it.

Jay

[guster girl]

Those are amazing photos, I think they look great both ways, but, I do favor the "racy" look. Gorgeous dogs, all of them!

[jcsperson]

Originally posted by Corinna
I too am intrested in this preadoption program. It is an intresting topic could we please hear more about it from all of you or some one who is doing it. (perhaps the breeder you all are so keen on)
As racing approaches full adoption over the next few years, I think it will become more difficult to get a greyhound. Groups might have waiting lists for dogs of a certain temperament, especially cat-safe greyhounds.

Pre-adoption would ensure that one gets a greyhound. Greyhounddaddy's situation is unique in that I haven't seen a breeder make arrangements with adopters practically from birth.

There are a large number of folks out there, however, who are tracking the racing careers of littermates of their pets awaiting the day they can adopt them. One lady on GreyTalk has three littermates and has made arrangements with the kennel to adopt a fourth when his career at the track ends. It looks like she has a wait ahead of her as he has a maddening habit of reeling off a few wins in a row just as it looks like he's going to grade off. :D

[7up]

I work in adoption in the Southern Calfornia area. I see the dogs who come in from Mexico. A lot of them raced in the United States at one time (some at the high end tracks) and then graded down to the lower end tracks when they could no longer perform as well. Caliente is the last stop or the end of the line as they say. For that reason, some California adoption groups concentrate their efforts on this track alone.

The dogs generally do have ticks and fleas. Anywhere from none to a lot. It varies. Their ears and teeth are usually very dirty and their toenails need to be cut. They have minor muzzle scrapes that usually go away within a few weeks. Their coats always look better after they have been in a home and settled in. For the most part, none of these things are major problems that cannot be corrected pretty easily. Their teeth can still be in good shape once they are cleaned because they haven't really had time to decay at such a young age.

Probably the worst case I have ever seen was a white greyhound who I was about to dry off after his bath. We keep their muzzles on up to that point because they are still together in a group so this was the first time his came off and because of his sensitive skin, his face was really, really raw and sore looking. I wasn't prepared for it and was really shocked. It probably hurt me more than it did him, so but instead of acting like a dolt, I pulled myself together and just gave him a big welcome home hug.

We also get our share of injuries and broken bones that need to be repaired.

If you decide to adopt a dog, try to use an adoption group who will offer you support throughout the dog's life and is willing to take the dog back if things don't work out for whatever reasons. Racing issues should be discussed outside of the adoption process if you choose to do so. There are so many other things that you can learn from your group and as we say, it's all about the dogs.

Jay

[7up]

lizbud, if you or anyone else still has questions about adopting greyhounds, I would highly recommend contacting some adoption groups close to you. I don't think too many of them have programs set up for adopting puppies because there are still so many adult dogs needing homes and that is where they need to concentrate most of their effort. But maybe they can refer you to someone who does have puppies or you can call a bunch of them from the list and see if you can find one.

Here is a complete list of groups to choose from. The web site also has other information about greyhounds that might interest you.

http://www.adopt-a-greyhound.org/directory/list.cfm

7up

[lizbud]

Originally posted by 7up
lizbud, if you or anyone else still has questions about adopting greyhounds, I would highly recommend contacting some adoption groups close to you. I don't think too many of them have programs set up for adopting puppies because there are still so many adult dogs needing homes and that is where they need to concentrate most of their effort. But maybe they can refer you to someone who does have puppies or you can call a bunch of them from the list and see if you can find one.

Here is a complete list of groups to choose from. The web site also has other information about greyhounds that might interest you.

http://www.adopt-a-greyhound.org/directory/list.cfm

7up

Thank you, but I have no personal interest in adopting (pre or
otherwise) right now. I have two dogs & five cats who keep me
very busy.:) However, if there's a pre-adoption program out
there somewhere, I'd be willing to promote the heck out of it.

There has got to be a better way than flooding the adoptable
dog population we already have.

[greysandmoregreys]

I think one of the main reasons that the Pre adoption hasn't taken off or doesn't work as well as it may sound is that for

1) It's a long wait. Some are longers than others. If you see a puppy picture and they are 3 months old it could be as much as 5 years before this grey may become your pet.

2) If you pick a hound and then that hound goes on to be a super star (stud dog or brood) the pre adopter may never get the hound that they have waited so long for

3) You have other pets and this hound doesn't get along with other pets (small animals, other non greys whatever)


4) You loose interest/lose track of the grey or the owner of the grey loses track of you

5) The worst case something horrible happens to the hound and it dies (sickness, sever injury)

Now that's not to say it would work but that it's not all that easy and also what's the worst thing? The pre adopter can't take the hound and it goes to an adoption group. Not to bad :)

Also it's may be tough for some greyhound owners to keep track of all the people and all the dogs of who wants who.

I'm begining to find that most of the people that we deal with want there hounds back for there own personal pets. But then again we deal with some very small time owners and also some of the best grey owners that are out there :)

[GreyhoundDaddy]

As jcsperson noted, this situation is unique...perhaps even unprecidented, and given the inherant issues that may arise from it at greysandmoregreys pionted out, we feel that it's something that's worthy of trying.

My own reason's for "pre-adopting" were simple...I was following the progress of a half-sister of Sequoia who races down in Jacksonville, FL...She's doig really, really well...blew away the field in her last Grade A race... Well, anyways, the breeder I'm doing this with runs a kennel at the same track. We'd "talked" via PM's over on GT and she could sense my excitement over this hound. She also kept me grounded in that she made it known to me that this hound was more than likely going to be racing for quite a while and then ultimately going back to the farm in OK to be a brood momma. I knew these were two distinct possibilties and so I wasn't crushed when I finally got word, that that was indeed what was planned for her.

Now, I think Cathie must've had this idea cookin for some time. Cuz, soon a she told me about LPF's future, she reminded me that she has a little white pup that's going to grow up and look just like her...The following is how we've arrived at the idea of
"Pre-Adoption":


Coach actually got the ball rolling on this idea when I started posting pictures and stories about some of my puppies this summer. When he posted about pre-adopting Ice Princess on Greytalk, a lot of GT members decided they wanted to do the same thing! Some I think because they love the idea of watching puppies develop and train to be racers, but don’t want the responsibility or expense of actually raising the puppy themselves.

Others are intrigued by the idea of not adopting or “chipping” right away, but following a specific dog’s growth and career with the anticipation of adopting that dog upon its retirement from racing and/or breeding. Pursuant to our kennel contract with track management in Jacksonville, all adoptions must be processed by Greyhounds as Pets of Northeast Florida, which is a track sponsored program. Therefore, whoever has first right of refusal for a particular dog will be contacted when their career is over. Barring unforeseen circumstances, that person will complete an adoption application to be reviewed and approved by GAP. Upon approval, and payment of the adoption fee (which is currently $200), arrangements will be made for medical treatment (spay/neuter, teeth cleaning, parasite check, etc.), and then we will coordinate how to deliver the dog to its new home. It may be by Greyhound Underground Railroad (GUR) or by a dog hauler. I have found homes for my dogs out of state before with no problem. We hope this will be something people can consider when they are ready. Our group will check vet references at a minimum, and if you already own a greyhound, they might check with your local group. That is their function and I don’t intrude on their territory! They help me adopt out too many dogs!


We're obviously still in the early stages of this idea, but, it does look like somethign that has some potential.

[jcsperson]

The most likely scenario for pre-adoption is with dogs currently racing. The dogs will be available much sooner than young puppies and it should be known whether or not they are likely to be worthy of being bred.

One of the reasons GreyTalk has become a cutting edge place in the greyhound world is that it is a place where pet and racing people can interact and build relationships out of mutual trust instead of the adverserial relationships that are developed elsewhere.

Greyhounddaddy is a perfect example of someone who has established a trusted relationship with a farm or kennel to pre-adopt. One thing that will allow folks to do is get a good read from the trainer on a prospective pet's disposition and inclination to be cat-safe if that is a requirement.

One of the biggest obstacles to implementing adoption ideas like these is the distrust created by some people whose lives are dedicated to demonizing racing and everyone in it.

One can only hope that forums like GT will help educate people that there are a great number of fine people in racing who will do their utmost to work with people to get the dog they want.

[7up]

That reminds me of something I said to my adoption rep. right after I lost my first grey and wanted another one. They were telling me about the new ones they had in and all their different personalities and shapes and sizes and the only thing I could think of saying was that I could fall in love with any one of them just as easily and he said he felt exactly the same way.

Jay

[true]

i think something that is a lot more common than pre-adoption from puppyhood is when people find an older dog that is still racing, and contact the owner/trainer and say that when the dog retires they would like to adopt it.

that way you can talk to the trainer about the personality of the dog, and you may just have to wait a couple of moneths or a year for the dog to retire.

many people find a dog they like, because they have seen it race, they like the name of the dog, or it is related to a grey they already have.

there are benefits to pre-adoption. mostly its nice that the dog is assured of getting a home. HOWEVER, all adoptions made thru a trainer/owner and not through an adoption group, have intrinsic problems. adoption groups are set up to screen adoption applicants, vet the dogs, and provide support and community to their adoptors. they are also there to help if there are problems iwht the dog, or in the worst case, take the dog back. they are also helpful when a dog is lost, in mobilizing people to search for the lost dog.

there can be very nice trainers out there that can do all of the above, however, generally, from what i understand, they are very busy doing other things related to their jobs and may not have the time to be there for an adoptor the way a group can.

now one way around this is to pre-adopt an older racing dog and then make the arrangements thru an adoption group.

if you pre-adopt a dog from puppyhood, or one that is older and closer to the end of their career, or go the normal route thru an adoption group of already retired hounds, you are giving the dog a home. since in each senario the dog gets adopted, there may not be much of a benefit one way over another. if you are only willing to aopt one daog, and you do that in one of the 3 ways, you still end up with giving a grey a home. so all 3 ways are of equal value.

the most important thing is taking a grey into your home! :)

[GreyhoundDaddy]

All good points Caroline.. and might I add that I didnt have to break out my "Ceelo-Translator" to read your post :)

Look, there's a bazillion ways to get adog.. some better than others.. But, like I said, this is what's going to work best for me now in relation to my gettnig a second hound. When the time comes that Icee is done racing, I'll be better able..both in terms of financial stability and living situation...totake on a second hound. If for some reason Icee has an extended career or is made a broody.. GREAT! I'd be really stoked, because that means she'll just be perpetuating a fantastic bloodline. I can hold on 2-3 years... if she were to race a full career and then go off to be a broody, well, then, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it :)