"Toy" Schnauzers

[lizzielou742]

Hey everyone, I was going to post this under "Dog Breeds" but I don't think many people check there that often.... ;)

So my aunt is thinking about breeding "Toy" Schnauzers, german schnauzers weighing from 3-8 lbs, under 10" tall. I think they're so cute and I would love to get one from her!! What I have read on the internet is that there is no such recognized breed as a Toy Schnauzer, they are simply mini schnauzers under 10" tall. I am also wondering about little bits of information I have read on genetic defects/birth defects that can come with breeding a dog so small. Does anyone have any advice for me?

Here's some info on the "toy" schnauzer:
http://www.toyschnauzer.com/Victoria__Suzie.jpg
Here is a full grown toy schnauzer - 3 years old, 3.5 lbs.
http://www.toyschnauzer.com/webPhoto1_toystatementpage.gif
This dog is 3 lbs., 7 inches.

http://www.toyschnauzer.com/toy.htm
You may ask, "How did the toy schnauzer come about?"

Many Schnauzer enthusiasts claim that more recently, unscrupulous breeders have introduced toy breeds into the schnauzer lines in order to bring down the size of the Miniature Schnauzer.

This is far from the truth.

Actually, the original American "CORRECT" size for the miniature schnauzer was 10 to 12 inches, which meant that the dogs were about 8-12 lbs. Maximum. That standard of perfection has been changed through the years, raised, raised, and raised again, so that the bigger dogs could win.......to its current 12-14" dogs weighing 16-22 lbs.

During the late 1800’s and early 1900’s when the Miniature Schnauzer breed was being established, the Standard Schnauzer was bred to the Affenpinscher, the Fox Terrier, and the Poodle, to bring down the size of the Standard Schnauzer.

These smaller breeds created a gene pool for a variety of size and color to surface from time to time.

By taking the small size minis and breeding back to the small size minis, breeders have reinforced the gene pool that brought the Toy Schnauzer about. These tiny bundles of joy are not dwarfs or defects in the breed as some would have you believe. They are just plain and simply a smaller size of the miniature schnauzer.

Schnauzer lovers, please enlighten me! This is the first I have heard of such a variety of schnauzer. Thanks!

[cloverfdx]

There are 3 sizes, Miniture, Standard and Giant nothing more nothing less.


Just a thought maybe your Aunty might want to take a trip to the local animal shelter and visit with all of the dogs that are about to be euthanised because there are too many dogs not enough homes. Leave it too the people who want to better the breed not shrink it. JMO.

[lizzielou742]

Um, OK that was pretty rude. You don't know anything about my aunt so I'd suggest you keep your comments to yourself about her.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

[cloverfdx]

You wanted opinions, you got them.

[micki76]

W:eek:W

I think she asked for advice.

[Samantha Puppy]

Originally posted by lizzielou742
Um, OK that was pretty rude. You don't know anything about my aunt so I'd suggest you keep your comments to yourself about her.

:mad: :mad: :mad: I don't think she said anything about your aunt other than to maybe ask her to check out the shelter. The nasty comment at the end was geared towards breeders, not your aunt. I may be wrong, but that's the way I took it.

Jaime :(

Edit: I'm an idiot, didn't read all the original post. Sorry for sticking my nose where it didn't belong.

[cloverfdx]

Yes Micki and i gave it (In a way).

Please lizzielou742, tell us about your Aunt and her exprience with breeding dogs and why she would like to breed these "Toy" Schnauzers. (I am being serious i would like to know)

[lizzielou742]

Originally posted by micki76
W:eek:W

I think she asked for advice.

Exactly. I was asking about the potential drawbacks of breeding a dog to be small. If you don't agree with that, then say so, and give me a reason why. I'm concerned about it myself and would like to know more information.

My aunt has a schnauzer now, she's 14 and is ailing from arthritis. I think she saw some 'toy' schnauzers at the Ky. State Fair last week and was thinking (note I said thinking) about looking into breeding/raising a few. They were such a big hit at the fair, apparently they were all spoken for. She's never bred dogs before, just horses. That is why I was coming here, to ask for advice for me, and for her. Not to get blasted with a rude comment within 5 minutes from someone who doesn't even take the time to try and ask questions and learn more about the situation.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[cloverfdx]

Apparently it's OK for only certain special people to breed/raise dogs.
Yes people who know the breed and have exprience in genetics etc, people who are doing it to breed out problems and want to improve a breed.

There is more to breeding than seeing a breed you like and that looks "Popular" at a fair. It take years of planning and $1000s of dollars, with testing and stud fee's and any emergency that pops up along the way.

[micki76]

Originally posted by cloverfdx
Yes people who know the breed and have exprience in genetics etc, people who are doing it to breed out problems and want to improve a breed.

There is more to breeding than seeing a breed you like and that looks "Popular" at a fair. It take years of planning and $1000s of dollars, with testing and stud fee's and any emergency that pops up along the way.

This I agree with 100%.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by cloverfdx
Yes people who know the breed and have exprience in genetics etc, people who are doing it to breed out problems and want to improve a breed.

There is more to breeding than seeing a breed you like and that looks "Popular" at a fair. It take years of planning and $1000s of dollars, with testing and stud fee's and any emergency that pops up along the way.

I completely agree 100% as well.

Like Rhiannon said, there are three "types" of Schnauzers. Giant, Standard, and Miniature. There is no recognized breed called a "toy schnauzer". Dogs that are called "toy schnauzers" are just merely smaller, undersized versions of the Miniature Schnauzer.

[lizzielou742]

OK, so if she wanted to start looking into breeding Miniature Schnauzers, where should she start? Please don't think my aunt is an irresponsible person. She's been breeding horses for years and is considering looking into breeding schnauzers. Anyone have any helpful advice for me to give her? Thanks.

[lute]

lizzielou742,
i don't think it's WRONG if your aunt wants to breed mini schnauzers. WHY she breed is another thing. if she wants to breed for money or because she loves her schnauzer so much she thinks there should be more of her is a bad thing. because the odds of her having a puppy EXACTLY like her is very slim. i think it's ok to breed as long as she breeds for the better of the breed. one of the most important things is to make sure the breed she wants to breed has a BREED STANDARD. that means NO "TOY" SCHNAUZERS! they cannot be shown and to roduce i good litter you need something to go by. mini schnauzers are great. it's my mom's favorite breed.

to start breeding i would check the web for responsible breeders in your area. talk to them about the expenses and emotional trials you will have with breeding. ask if you can tag along and experience a birth and maybe he/she will share the same love for the breed as your aunt does and she will let you use a stud or know of a good one.

good luck.


hope this helps.:D

[lizzielou742]

Thank you, lute. I don't know why exactly she wants to start breeding them. I was, in fact, a bit shocked when she said she wanted to. I suggested she maybe foster a few and see how she liked it. She lives on a farm and helps my cousin breed horses, so it's not like she'd be doing it out of an apartment or something...but I still wanted to get some information together to send her about the pros/cons of breeding.

I love Miniature Schnauzers too. My mom has one, too, a former stud dog that she adopted from a breeder. He was 'retired' at the age of four and everyone kept picking the puppies over him, but my mom just fell in love with him. You can see pictures of Harley in this thread (http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56924&highlight=Harley). When I move out of my apartment and get a place with a yard, I hope to adopt a Mini Schnauzer too.

:D

Anyone else have an idea on what I should tell my aunt? What exactly are the genetic consequences of breeding a "toy" dog? I mean, do these dogs have health problems because they're not following a breed standard? I don't have any experience with this type of stuff so any help/advice would be greatly appreciated. Just please don't make me feel attacked! I do love animals, and I would like to see my aunt follow a breed standard in order to further the breed if she does choose to start breeding...but I don't know what to tell her. Thanks.

[lute]

when you say "toy breeds with no standard" i personally think that even considering breeding a breed with no standard is not responsible. your aunt can do whatever she wants,but i HIGHLY suggest she breed with a breed standard or there's no way to find out if she has good breeding stock.

[lizzielou742]

Lute, I agree. I am just now learning these things myself. I had no idea about all this "breed standard" stuff until yesterday. I don't know a lot about purebred dogs, breeders, etc. - I spend most of my time focused on my kitties. :D I would like to be able to tell my aunt, "'Toy' schnauzers are not a recognized breed. Therefore, you should not breed them because:
1. Will not be for the advancement of the breed (no breed standard to base on, etc.)
2. Cannot be shown
3. Possible genetic problems (this one I need help with)??
4. Other??"

So is that quote I posted in my original post just a bunch of B.S.?

Now that I have read your all's posts, I don't think I'll get a so-called 'toy," I'll just stick to the regular mini schnauzer ;)

[Amber]

Wow, and I thougt Elvis was small- Lol!

As a schnauzer owner I find that pretty amazing. They are so tiny & small, and I think I wanna research on them more, as I think it would be interesting to own one someday.

As for breeding, I say go for it because as long as she DOES her research and be a good breeder then thats fine. I think this would be a great dog to come out with, because some people (like my family) can't go to a shelter and pick out a dog because you don't know their history, we can't end up with a big dog that sheds. anyways my point is I think it will be great because some people need tiny-small dogs who don't shed. So peope have requirments in a dog they want.

but, I say go for it, but make sure she understands what she's getting herself into.

good luck! ;)

*edit* As for genetic problems alot of schauzers have health problem like, Urinary Tract Infections, Pancreatitis, Cushing's Disease, Schnauzer Bumps [allergies] ect

So those are some of the health problems in mini schnuazers though, so, i'm not sure how to help you in that way, but might want to take those health problems a consideration since she might be breeding a even smaller dog.

Sorry, not much help on the genetics problems, but if you have any questions on schanzuers in general, ask!

[DogLover9501]

Originally posted by cloverfdx
Yes people who know the breed and have exprience in genetics etc, people who are doing it to breed out problems and want to improve a breed.

There is more to breeding than seeing a breed you like and that looks "Popular" at a fair. It take years of planning and $1000s of dollars, with testing and stud fee's and any emergency that pops up along the way.

I also agree with this 100%

Breeding a breed because it seems popular, usually means they think they'd make alot of money...

Also even if she does her research and is responsible, that still isn't a reason to breed, as almost anyone can do research and become a responsible breeder, but theres no need to.

[kingrattus]

The con of having a mini Sn is that if one of the mini Sn has a standard gene in it it can cause the pups to be too large inside her & could kill her.

MY friend had one across from my old place & they had a standard too.

They got her in heat & talked to the vet about it. they had to keep he caged or locked in a bedroom just incase the neighbours dog got to her. The neighbours always let their JRT loose (hes attacked all dogs on that street) & hes not fixed. & the JRT was larger then Clair.

The breeder they got her from said she was a really good sized & healthy dog & said she would have been a great breeder, but after my friend learned about the birth problem she got Clair fixed ASAP. She said Clair was her baby & didn't want rick her life for stupid puppies.

Her standard SN male was fixed before they got him. he belonged to her aunt who died & she got Buddy. Buddy was 10 when she got him.. poor old fellow. his pee pee was broken.

[lizzielou742]

Originally posted by DogLover9501
Also even if she does her research and is responsible, that still isn't a reason to breed, as almost anyone can do research and become a responsible breeder, but theres no need to.

I agree DogLover. That's a great point. Also thanks to Amber for her advice and to everyone for their input. I guess I did not realize how inflammatory of an issue this could become, probably b/c I'm not over here as much as I should be. :p I went to the pet store last night to buy some food for Sophie and while I was there I picked up a book on Schnauzers. I read about the three types, the breed standards, etc. I think I understand a lot more now about WHY it's important to hold up a breed standard. I did not fully understand the risks of doing something like breeding a dog to be smaller.

And just so you all understand, although my aunt loves animals (she has lizards, horses and a dog) I don't think she fully understands these things either. Hence why she should not go into breeding. But it's her decision, she is an adult, so I'll just leave it at that about her. :)

And Clover, I owe you a public apology. :o Samantha Puppy pointed out to me that in Australia, "Aunty" is the commonly used term for an aunt. I thought you were trying to be snide by using that term...as if I was a child or something, which immediately put me on the defensive for the rest of the day. No hard feelings, OK? :) I don't want to be hated on the Dog side!! :p Water under the bridge? ;)

[GiantSchnauzer]

As others have stated, "Toy Schnauzers" are not a breed. They're simply another "designer" breed like all the poo mixes.

Here are some links...

http://members.aol.com/tcmsc/breeding.html

http://members.aol.com/ktbrit/breeding_and_breeders.html

http://amsc.us/about.html

[Tonya]

I can't give much advice on toy schnauzers but I wanted to jump in and give my two cents. I agree with both sides of the fence on breeding. Breeding should be done to improve the dog and it should be done by an experienced breeder. On the same token, no breeder was born experienced. It is something that you have to learn. I give you and your aunt credit for researching breeding before you jump into it. Good luck in whatever you decide.

[lizzielou742]

Thanks for the input everyone! Tonya - my aunt is doing this on her own, I just wanted to get some input on it. I agree with what you said otherwise though! ;) :D

Again, I just wanted to say sorry if I brought up a bad topic. I think this issue (of breeders, toys, etc.) is a bit like the declawing issue is for the cat boards...can be a sensitive one, and I had no idea. Sorry if I ruffled feathers unintentionally :)