Bush Expresses "Deep Disgust"

[lizbud]

I can hardly believe this of American troops..... both men & women.


http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/30/iraq.photos/index.html

[RICHARD]

This one had me puzzled too....

But I do want to say something, But,in no way does it condone their behavior....

When you look at the pics it's something you would see from a college frat/hazing party....At least that's my first impression...

"Line up all the new people get them naked and let's get them initiated...Humiliate them a little and we'll let them be...."

No reports of people dying or being hurt....

Soon after Baghdad fell there were some video clips of the Republican Guard (lolol, Republican Guard.........what would the Democratic Guard be like??)pushing people off of a roof, with their hands tied behind their backs, men having their arms broken by laying them across two bricks and whacking their forearms with a club and my 'personal favorite'-- using a pair of scissors to cut a tongue off.....

Those pictures are going to make the US look like a bunch of cruel people, But I never heard a peep from any other government about the atrocities that were commmited by the Iraqis, to the Iraqis..


So, when I see the world gasp at what some of our soldiers have done in Iraq, I can laugh at the people pointing their fingers at us and question their point of view when the REALLY GROSS POOP was going on...........



It's all anti-American bile from all the countries who treat their citizens far worse than a US military unit would...And if they are so kind, understanding and respectful of Human Rights, where are their soldiers??

Yep, It's pretty disheartening to see stuff like that, but look at the Killing Fields, Ethnic Cleansing, the Holocaust...

Me? I'd be first in line to jump in a pile of naked men.....It sure beats having my tongue cut off with rusty scissors.

:eek:

[mugsy]

On the news this morning I heard that there are 8 Marines being court martialed for their actions.

[lizbud]

Originally posted by RICHARD
Yep, It's pretty disheartening to see stuff like that, but look at the Killing Fields, Ethnic Cleansing, the Holocaust...

Me? I'd be first in line to jump in a pile of naked men.....It sure beats having my tongue cut off with rusty scissors.

:eek:


I'm sure you would.:rolleyes:

but, because the "enemy " acts like this does not mean that
Americans act that way too. We are supposed to be bringing
"enlightened" democrative values to their culture.

[moosmom]

RICHARD,

AMEN TO THAT!!!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
I'm sure you would.:rolleyes:

but, because the "enemy " acts like this does not mean that
Americans act that way too. We are supposed to be bringing
"enlightened" democrative values to their culture.


I have to disagree with you on that point.
Humiliation is not acceptable, but far better than
mutilation or death.

The clips I told you about will make you sick...
something about watching an arm snap gives me the willies...I'll look them up and get you the address....

It wasn't acceptable but you can't blame the president for this.......look at the roots...you'll find the answer there.

[mugsy]

They made me angry because all that does it make the Iraqis hate us more. You know...blame the whole for the actions of a few to make yourself look better than you are.

[lizbud]

I must admit, this whole thing does really make me feel
embarressed by our troops's actions.

The only "explanation" I can think of is that war itself makes
mankind a little crazy. People become dehumanized in the
conflict & killing.

[popcornbird]

I read that........and saw the pictures, which made me sick to the stomach. I can't help but say I was shocked and incredibly disgusted by the actions of the troops. Shame on them.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by moosmom
RICHARD,

AMEN TO THAT!!!

Amen to jumping into a pile of naked men????;)
Not my cup of tea.:eek:

We have commited far worse crimes during a military action.

In WWII our answer to knocking out ball bearing factories in Germany was to fly B24 bombers and drop TONS of bombs onto a
city.....I am sure that those men thought about and quickly forgot the innocent people under their wings. War crime???

Maybe.

Google My Lai and William Calley, From Europe you'll time travel 25 years into the future and land in Viet Nam.....

War Crime?

Yes.

Let's move ahead- we end up in Iraq at the front door of a factory where we land a cruise missle on a building full of people.
People put there be some goofy dictator who has thumbed his nose at us and the rest of the world..

War Crime?
Blame THAT one on the other team.

Pride goeth before the fall.....Saddam landed so hard he ended up in a hole in the ground..


All in all I probably would be a little pissed off if I had to play be the rules while I have some monsters trying to kill me.

And I wonder how much I could take of some 'man' yelling at me to kiss his a**, telling me to ---- my mother and some other choice sex acts.......It's bad enough that they were shooting at them a little while ago...Now these soldiers have to put up with some face to face time with them...There ain't nothing worse than a sore loser. There is a film clip of some Iraqi spewing this crap at soldiers, I saw it.

Being spit, pissed on, bitten, threatened and having crap flung at you isn't fun, especially when you left your home behind to do this.

Listen to every story very carefully, don't believe everything you read...


Just as the acts of these few soldiers don't represent the bulk of our armed forces, the 'insurgents' don't represent the citizen's of Iraq......

Yeppers,
I am mad about this story, I wasn't there so I have to go by the photos......not a good sight......and I don't condone it...

You have to remember that these prisoners KNOW they will not be killed while in custody.....It's not the American way..

But If you aren't pointing a gun at some 19 year old Marine from TwoTramp, Texas you ain't gonna have your naked *** flashed across the planet on websites in every country..



"Hey, isn't that Ali from the Mosque??? He said he was going to fight the Americans.....'

"Yes, that's him! At least he's still alive, Saddam would have killed him for being captured..."

[popcornbird]

Wow...........I just read deeper into the article. It says that a British soldier urinated on a prisoner. I cannot BELIEVE they would do that! Sickening. Absolutely sickening. Such a shame. :(

[RICHARD]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/04/09/iraq/main548570.shtml


After you check this article out look at the link at the bottom of the page about the reaction to the 'torture' pics in the Arab world..

It's the same old BS.......

Propaganda on both sides, the American press plasters the pictures all over and the Arab world just sit on their hands and complain, complain, complain.

Al-Jazeera anyone?

They liken this incident to what Saddam was doing, but what is THEIR FIX FOR IT? They never bothered to help their brothers, just around the corner when they needed assistance......Saddam was in power for 30 years.


Yes, the story is shocking about what those prisoners went thru
but judging from some of the stories I have heard about -stoning women for infidelity, mutilations as the penalties for committing crimes and some of the other stuff that goes on in the 'ARAB WORLD"

Isn't it funny that some people see a mirror and others just see a pane of glass when it comes to certain things.

I wonder what those same "Joes" that think the US is terrible think about homicide bombers and terrorists......

You'll hear the same yadda, yadda about the "occupiers, the occupation, palestine, Israel and more horse puckey.

It's the drama queen syndrome-the more you cry and moan about something, anything-the more people will look at you and say, "oh, that's terrible......."

It's more than politics, it's common sense......and I don't see too much of that in some places on the planet.

[lizbud]

PCB,

The British army have their own investigation going on over
these allegations. It's just sickening.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3675723.stm

[Lady's Human]

The abuse of prisoners is inexcusable, but what infuriates me is that when the offenders go to trial by courts martial, the media will not be there to close the loop on the story. By then it will be old news and not worth the headline. The atrocities make the US soldier in the field look bad, but the media will not stick around to see the justice meted out at the end of the day. It's just not newsworthy.

[2kitties]

Our troops made fun of the enemy troops and humiliated them. Not good judgement and should be punished.


BUT..... the other side of my brain can't help but see burnt bodies of Civilian Contractors drug through the streets and hung from bridges and dismembered.


Who's the animal?

[RICHARD]

here's another tidbit...heard on the news today....

Three Afghani girls, around the age of 8 years old were poisoned
with arsenic because they attended school...

[Logan]

:(

[RICHARD]

I have tried to find a link to the film clip I mentioned in an earlier post..

http://www.hootinan.com/?entry=1686_New_Saddam_Torture_Video

The link to the clip is no longer vaild.....but the descriptions of the content should be enough.

[lizbud]

There can be NO excuse for this kind of behavior.Period.

Posting what others do or haven't done, does not make
these actions defensible or excuseable. The U S is going to
have to start all over in defining themselves to the people
their supposed to be helping set free.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
There can be NO excuse for this kind of behavior.Period.

Posting what others do or haven't done, does not make
these actions defensible or excuseable.


I never defended or exciused anyone......just wanted to bring up the differences on how the news is interpreted ........

Funny, the A rab League was offended when they saw the pics of the prison, but THEIR silence was DEAFENING when it's their own people doing it to each other........That's pretty sad....

No wonder they haven't moved their people out of mud huts in 2000 years.

[mugsy]

I don't think anyone is disputing what these soldiers did was inexcusable. My problem with the whole thing is that the entire world is taking what a few soldiers have done and villianized the entire U.S. military. There are no decent soldiers that are not appalled by their comrades' actions, but, Europe and the Middle East don't report that. We're just the evil U.S.

[RICHARD]

A former Iraqi prisoner is quoted to have said that he 'would rather be tortured by Saddam' than to be made to strip in front of American men and women since nudity is verboten in their culture.

I found that to be a very interesting bit of knowledge....

We just have to invent a Nudie Bomb, drop it over the Middle East and while everyone scrambles to find clothes...............

First we have to get it OK'ed by John Ashcroft...



Then there is the prudish John Ashcroft, who makes us laugh. This is an Attorney General so ill at ease with nudity that he ordered a bare-breasted female statue, Spirit of Justice, to be covered up in the Justice Department press room, lest the country's chief law enforcement officer be seen by the world with two large iron nipples as a backdrop.

[lizbud]

I just read this on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/04/iraq.abuse.main/index.html


Apparently some of the lawyers for the military people who
are involved in this scandal say that the troops were just
following orders & that this treatment is part of a systematic
approach to interrogation of prisoners.

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by RICHARD
A former Iraqi prisoner is quoted to have said that he 'would rather be tortured by Saddam' than to be made to strip in front of American men and women since nudity is verboten in their culture.

I found that to be a very interesting bit of knowledge....

We just have to invent a Nudie Bomb, drop it over the Middle East and while everyone scrambles to find clothes...............



I'm amazed at what sickening thoughts your mind has the ability to think. Really, I am amazed.

As to humiliation being better than death, I'd like to tell you, I would take death 1000 times over this humiliation of sexual abuse. When you die, you are gone from this world and on to the next. When you are abused and humiliated, its something you will live with for the rest of your life. Humiliation better than death? Yeah right!

Just look at the pictures in the slideshow on this page. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/ This is justified behavior? Really, get a grip on reality. Comparing it to what the Iraqis did doesn't make it right. They are both wrong. They are both war criminals, and they all deserve to be brought to justice. That woman in the pictures has the most evil face I have ever seen. Try convincing the Arab world that this war was to *free* them now. It isn't going to work.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by popcornbird
I'm amazed at what sickening thoughts your mind has the ability to think. Really, I am amazed.



Jeez,

I figured you would have known the movie I was talking about....

http://www.roogulator.esmartweb.com/sf/nudebomb.htm

I don't see you as a fan of farce, though.
--------------
Can you PLEASE prove we go somewhere else when we die?
--------------
Again, WHERE DID I SAY IT WAS JUSTIFIED BEHAVIOR???

The comparison was to show how the Mulsim world WILL NOT ACKNOWLEDGE any HUMAN RIGHTS violations that they have happened in the Middle Eastern countries. If you can quote me where I said that it's justified, I will be more that happy to apologize to you.

We'll never convince the Arab world about anything. They have their minds made up about their place in the world. They choose to inflict barbaric punishments on people who break the "law", and anyone who questions those laws is automatically an infidel...

I have already seen the pictures-what good does it do to post them again??? I already said that it wasn't right.....

Here's a tidbit of common sense that my mom taught me a while back.....See if you can follow the logic....

"Jail is for everyone."

Now if you had behaved yourself and not run around yelling, "Jihad, Occupation" or picked up a gun and turned it against another human being, chances are you would NOT BE IN JAIL OR PRISON. Not to say that it's OK to get punked by an American soldier,
I am just saying that If you do something stupid and get sent to jail or prison, half the problem is you getting there.


--------------------------------
What do you have to say about the three girls who were poisoned for attending school???

And last but not least.....

I seem to keep amazing you......ergo, in order not to be amazed, ignore my posts.

----------------------------------

Liz
The thing about following orders is HORSECRAP.

ANY soldier can refuse to follow an illegal order.
If a soldier does not have the common sense to question an order, they deserve to suffer the consequences.

[mugsy]

Originally posted by lizbud
I just read this on CNN.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/04/iraq.abuse.main/index.html


Apparently some of the lawyers for the military people who
are involved in this scandal say that the troops were just
following orders & that this treatment is part of a systematic
approach to interrogation of prisoners.

Usually the way it goes. From the people I've heard interviewed, it is NOT commonplace and standard procedure, quite the opposite. One guy I heard said that the way this broke was the someone in the platoon received the email and had a bout of conscience and turned the disc into commanding officers and the investigating committee.

I hate it when people try and pass the buck. I know that the female general in charge of the prison is up for court martial also.

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by RICHARD

What do you have to say about the three girls who were poisoned for attending school???

You know very well that I think that is the most disgusting thing I have ever heard of. That still does not make what the troops did right. Just because there are evil people in the Muslim world doing such evil things, doesn't mean all Muslims are like that, nor does it mean its something taught in our religion. Its not. The people who do these things can rot in Hell. They've destroyed the image of our faith, and destroyed the image and lives of the entire Muslim world. Do you think I would approve of what they do just because they claim to be Muslim? NEVER! At the same time, the actions of these troops does not mean all of the troops are like that, nor does it mean that's what they are taught to do. Would I justify them just because they are American, and the fact that I'm an American too? NEVER! I stand for justice, and when injustice is being done, it doesn't matter if the ones committing it are Muslim or Christian or Jew, or Hindu, or American, or Arab, or whatever. As long as its injustice, I cannot tolerate it. It doesn't matter who's doing it. Injustice is injustice, period. I do not approve of the crimes Muslims have committed, and likewise, I do not approve of the crimes Americans have committed. I'm not a blind supporter of anyone.

And I would like to add, I am incredibly ashamed of the actions of certain so-called Muslims these days. They have left their religion, and follow their pathetic cultures, that have nothing to do with their religion. I honestly believe this is why they are suffering so much these days. Perhaps God is punishing them for leaving their religion........for leaving the peace, justice, and honesty that Islam teaches, and becoming as evil as evil can get. If you think I'm in favor of what they do there, you are wrong. I would never favor their crimes just because they claim to be Muslim. They are evil-doers, and they make my blood boil, especially when I see so many Americans thinking that what those people do is what Islam teaches. What they do is not what Islam teaches. It has nothing to do with the religion. It only has to do with their stupidity and evil minds. I'm saying this because just as you cannot consider all troops bad because of what happened, you cannot consider all Muslims bad because of the bad apples that are very unfortunately, amongst them. Of the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, just a handful are evil. I know that in the troops, the evil ones are just a handful too.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by popcornbird
Of the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, just a handful are evil. I know that in the troops, the evil ones are just a handful too.


Great, we agree on this point.

My condemnation is not for the 1.3 billion Muslims in the world.

My problem is with the .00000000000001 percent who are in the position to use common sense and to talk to the people to get a non violent resolution to some of the problems in the Middle East.

The creep in Fallujah, Sadr, is that his name?? constantly stirs up the hornet's nest by calling for the people to fight the coalition, he could just as easily call for them to lay down their arms and talk about the problem.....He then tells everyone that he will gladly be martyred for the cause....

Well, hiding out in a mosque and shooting at people is a great way to get peace to the region...

Arafat is also another moron who won't be missed on the planet.
Historically, when you lose in a war you kick back and figure out why you lost.....you don't keep crying about a 50 year old loss and whip up the people to kick out the winners......Sore loser?

I should say so...

My point, as you so eloquently pointed out is that if there are 1.3 billion GOOD followers of the Islamic faith, there should be 1,299, 999,900 voices (I just made 100 people evil), united and drowning out the bad ones......

Make that 1.299,999,899.....


I heard you.

And I still have an apology with your name on it.

[Lady's Human]

Any soldier who is given an illegal order is bound by the UCMJ to not follow the order and report the person giving the order. A soldier who doesn't isn't a soldier, they are a craven idiot. The nazis tried the "we were just following orders" bit in Nuremburg, and all it got them was the gallows. I have a very, very hard time believing that a military intelligence unit ordered them to take those actions, especially when a military intelligence unit would not have allowed pictures even IF they did order it. All soldiers are given training on EPW handling prior to deployment, as well as classes on the UCMJ (uniform code of Military Justice), the Law of Land Warfare, and rules for use of force. Those aren't soldiers, those are animals soiling my uniform.

[carole]

I have not read all the posts, but the old saying "two wrongs don't make a right" apply's, being a NZ'er I donot automatically think all the US Military are bad , it is a few who have spoilt the good name of the US forces, and they should and will be duly punished.

We always heard about the Japanese and the cruelty they endured upon our British soldiers etc, but did we ever hear or know for sure what happened in their camps.

I donot condone any of this behaviour, and was as shocked as the rest of you, on viewing this sad state of affairs.

But I know who I would turn to in times of need THE US FORCES, they saved our country once before, and I would hope like heck they would again.

YES SHAME ON THOSE who committed these crimes, but let us not judge the rest of the US FORCES by their behaviour, it is sad that the iraqi people will hate them even more because of this.

[lizbud]

I really believe this is a good thing for U.S. officials to do &
I hope it helps somewhat.

p.s. The last paragraph is a little ironic.

Top U.S. Officials Apologize To Arabs for Prisoner Abuse

By Robin Wright
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 5, 2004; Page A19


The Bush administration's top foreign policy officials publicly apologized yesterday to the Arab world for abuse of Iraqi detainees by U.S. personnel at notorious Abu Ghraib prison, and officials said President Bush today would join the effort to limit damage from the revelations.



Bush will conduct two 10-minute interviews today with the U.S.-sponsored al-Hurra television network and the Arab network al-Arabiya, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said last night.

"This is an opportunity for the president to speak directly to the people in Arab nations and let them know that the images that we all have seen are shameless and unacceptable," McClellan said.

In interviews with the al-Arabiya, al-Jazeera and Lebanese television networks, national security adviser Condoleezza Rice expressed sorrow yesterday about the treatment of Iraqi detainees and regret for the humiliation of them and their families.

"The American president is reacting because no American wants to be associated with any dehumanizations now of the Iraqi people. And we are deeply sorry for what has happened to these people and what the families must be feeling. It's just not right. And we will get to the bottom of what happened," Rice told al-Arabiya, a regional network broadcast from Dubai.

"It's simply unacceptable that anyone would engage in the abuse of Iraqi prisoners," she said.

The language from several ranking U.S. officials was striking for its remorse and embarrassment over the photos of U.S. personnel apparently abusing Iraqis at the prison made famous for torture during Saddam Hussein's 24-year rule. The White House has scurried to pull together a response after "shock waves" rippled through the administration this week over the damage done in the Arab world, said an envoy from a country familiar with the U.S. reaction.

At the United Nations, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell said yesterday that the photos had "stunned every American. It was shocking. It showed acts that are despicable" and totally out of character for the U.S. military, he told reporters after a meeting with Secretary General Kofi Annan, and European Union and Russian officials on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

"I'm deeply concerned at the horrible image this has sent around the world. But at the same time, I want to remind the world that it's a small number of troops who acted in an illegal, improper manner," Powell said, reflecting the approach the administration is taking in dealing with the issue.

Rice and Powell stressed that U.S. troops had intervened in Iraq to liberate Iraqis and promote democratic freedoms throughout the region. "Let's not let that take away from the magnificent contributions being made by most of our soldiers, the vast majority of our soldiers, who are building schools, repairing hospitals, who are defending themselves, going after the bad guys, but also putting in sewer systems for the people of Iraq," Powell said on CNN's "Larry King Live."

But Powell, a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who served twice in Vietnam, also said he had never heard of or seen behavior like this during his military career.

The administration is coming under growing heat from Congress as well. Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. (Del.), ranking Democrat on the Foreign Relations Committee, called the prisoners' treatment "appalling" and called for the White House to address the fallout "with far more urgency than the administration has demonstrated so far."

Biden called the alleged abuse "the single most damaging act" to U.S. interests in the Middle East in a decade and warned that it would have a broad and negative impact on U.S. national security.

In an interview with al-Hurra television, Deputy Secretary of State Richard L. Armitage acknowledged that long-term damage had been done to U.S. relations in the region.

"It will take a long time, however, I think, for us to recover," Armitage said.

Rice said the United States believes it is "extremely important" to talk directly to Arab and Islamic audiences to underscore the U.S. goal of promoting peace and democratic values.

The State Department announced it is postponing release of its annual report on U.S. support for human rights and democracy around the world, which had been scheduled for today. According to a statement, the report was delayed for "technical reasons." On Monday, however, the State Department had announced that the document was ready to be unveiled.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by carole


But I know who I would turn to in times of need THE US FORCES, they saved our country once before, and I would hope like heck they would again.



Send me Kylie Minogue and we'll call it even, ok?

:) :cool: :D ;) :eek:

[carole]

Well mate I would but she is a blimey Aussie, how about Lucy Lawless ZENA WARRIOR PRINCESS, now she is one of ours.:) :D

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
I really believe this is a good thing for U.S. officials to do &
I hope it helps somewhat.


But Powell, a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who served twice in Vietnam, also said he had never heard of or seen behavior like this during his military career.



Not when Powell starts to lie....Where was he during the My Lai massacre...asleep?



Originally posted by carole
Well mate I would but she is a blimey Aussie, how about Lucy Lawless ZENA WARRIOR PRINCESS, now she is one of ours.:) :D

lolololol,

I'll pay for the shipping.....;)

[carole]

It's a deal mate, just going offline to ring her right now, sure she won't mind, she has just finished being a judge on NZ IDOL, so I reckon she is free right now.lol:) :D

[Lady's Human]

After My Lai, Powell, the Americal division G-3, was busy burying the story.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Lady's Human
After My Lai, Powell, the Americal division G-3, was busy burying the story.

AHA!

Just what I suspected!

------------------

We should have just bull dozed the prison, as a gesture to the Iraqis and found someplace else to keep the prisoners...

I really think that this will blow over soon. Al Jazeera will go on to the next horror show soon enough.....it's all about ratings anyway.
:rolleyes:

[Soledad]

Let's put this situation into a parable. Let's say there are several young children whose father is a horrible tyrant who delights in abusing and humiliating them. They spend their whole lives terrified of this bully, and because of it are afraid of everything and everyone. They cannot trust their own father so they learn not to trust anyone.

So when their home gets busted into by child services, they are scared, worried and skeptical. The social workers tell them they are there to save them from their horrible father and that soon they will have a wonderful family life like every kid deserves.

The social workers work hard to gain their trust, because these kids have seen so much before and are incredibly jaded. They know their father, they know his abuses, if nothing else he was predictable. Rather the devil you know...

But then some of the social workers start to do some of the same things their dad did. Abusing them in every way, but quietly, and the other social workers choose to look away. No one in charge stops this.

Could those social workers and the government tell those children:

"Well, what your father did was worse."

[Edwina's Secretary]

Blow over soon????? That what I keep hoping will happen with the whole Iraq invasion (and the Bush adminstration.)

The problem with the moral high road is that is is hard to keep your balance at that altitude.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
Let's put this situation into a parable.



You forgot the part when the fox thinks the grape are sour!


And the part where the kids go nuts and try to kill the social workers with AK 74s, RPGs and improvised bombs after they get rid of the evil father.

The social workers, frustrated because they are playing by the rules, flip out and start doing stupid things......

While all this is going on, some of the bad kids call for martyrdom, while they hide out in a religious shrines thumbing their noses at the social workers.

None of the good kids will rat out the bad kids who kill the social workers, burn the bodies and desecrate them by hanging them off a bridge-Even though the kid's basic values say that doing that is a real NO-NO!

The moral of the story?

Behave yourself, put all your pride aside and sit down and try to talk things over. THAT way there won't be so many problems and everyone works towards the good of all.

-----------------------
"Well, what your father did was worse."

Yep, but it was OK when dad did it......because he loved us, the social workers don't...

Instead of the "nudie bomb" we should go for the "common sense" bomb.......that way people will wake up and really see the stupidity behind the 'bad kids' logic..

But what do you expect from people who are still traumatized by the crusades of 1096? Talk about harboring a grudge...

------------------------

Again,

It's not a problem of "dad was a jerk".

It's the age old problem of the police showing up at a 'domestic disturbance' and having the person reporting the hassle telling the police, while sporting a black eye, missing teeth and a few bruises, "Please don't them to jail, I LOVE HIM/HER.." Don't call the cops, get the person arrested and fail to testify at the trial.

Take the phone off the hook, close the doors and beat the crap out of each other, finish it once and for all.

Save the world some time.

[Barbara]

Now you got me: into politics!

In any nation there are only a few who are bad and abusers and criminals. (This is true because genetically we are all extremely similar, even if we include all the differences you can see).

What happens when a nation looks away while these criminals slowly take over and eventually do what they want can be seen in German history. It is one of the biggest historical catastrophes mankind has seen and can never be forgotten. It started with some crazy guys demonstrating in Munich in the 1920s and there were too many who didn't take it serious.

I believe strictly in the rights of man and in the moral values of our occidental democracies (I don't believe that others have no moral values, but ours are part of my personal culture, so I understand them better. I see the roots of these values not so much in religion but in the area of enlightenment.).

And I think we have to hold them up strongly under any circumstance.

As with any criminal I may understand why he/she came to do what he/she did- but a state has to judge these deeds on a legal background.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary


The problem with the moral high road is that is is hard to keep your balance at that altitude.

Yes, I said "blow over soon....."


Some stupid suicide bomber, Muslim cleric or coalition death will distract us for a moment and the world will be OK.

Pull out you road map and try to find the right street, as opposed to asking for directions at every corner-Or you'll be driving the 'moral side streets' running over animals and knocking over trashcans in search of the way around the accident.

Stay on the pavement, obey all traffic rules, buckle your seatbelt and keep your hands at 10 and 2.

Just a reminder,
THIS SITUATION IS NOT GOOD. IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT WAS DONE-It's about having the same indignation about any human rights violation....

[RICHARD]

http://www.kylie-pics.com/Kylie-Minogue-Beautiful.htm


Make love, not war.

*sigh*

[Edwina's Secretary]

Sorry, but in my moral code, the fact that someone else is bad does NOT give me permission to be bad.

If I see you steal ten things from the store, does that give me permission to steal two?

We were not invited in to "liberate" Iraq. The government decided to send our troops there. We wanted to shine the light of freedom on these oppressed people. Show them the way.


THIS SITUATION IS NOT GOOD. IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT WAS DONE-It's about having the same indignation about any human rights violation....

It IS about what was done.


Behave yourself, put all your pride aside and sit down and try to talk things over. THAT way there won't be so many problems and everyone works towards the good of all.

Some of us thought this would have been a good idea in the first place.

[sirrahved]

I think the government is handling it very well. It is very important to communicate our disgust over this to everyone!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Sorry, but in my moral code, the fact that someone else is bad does NOT give me permission to be bad.





In my MORSE CODE....
.-- .... . .-. . -.. .. -.. .. ... .- -.-- - .... .- -?




If I see you steal ten things from the store, does that give me permission to steal two?

No, because I don't shoplift...

I offer you the same apology that I offered Popcornbird...IF you can find out where I said that it was O.K. or in any way said that it was right for those prisoners to be treated that way, I will gladly post an apology to you and anyone else that is interested.

If you lived closer, I'd even offer to wash your car.

Get cracking!

[Edwina's Secretary]

I think you and George Bush saw the movie Love Story too many times. Love is never having to say you're sorry....




If you lived closer, I'd even offer to wash your car.
Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
I think you and George Bush saw the movie Love Story too many times. Love is never having to say you're sorry....



Behave yourself, people talk;)

Was never a Ryan O'neal fan......But If you want to talk about

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/040502/483/saa10705022316

[lizbud]

Originally posted by sirrahved
I think the government is handling it very well. It is very important to communicate our disgust over this to everyone!

The American people shouldn't have to "handle it" at all....

If Bush & gang of a few advisors had not decided to invade
Iraq in the first place( for some yet unproven threats of WMD),
we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

Does the USA really need Iraq's oil that bad? Or is this all a big
power trip by George W. at the expense of our young people.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
The American people shouldn't have to "handle it" at all....

If Bush & gang of a few advisors had not decided to invade
Iraq in the first place( for some yet unproven threats of WMD),
we wouldn't be in the mess we're in.

Does the USA really need Iraq's oil that bad? Or is this all a big
power trip by George W. at the expense of our young people.


Geez,
Explain 'unproved threats of WMDs' to the Kurds.
And wasn't it some young soldiers who misbehaved in the first place??

I really wish we did have Iraq's oil...I would not be paying two bucks a gallon for dead dinosaurs.


Want your car washed too?


P.S.

Liz,

Love means never having to say you are sorry.

I couldn't put my finger on why that slogan didn't sound right.....

[guster girl]

Originally posted by RICHARD
Send me Kylie Minogue and we'll call it even, ok?

:) :cool: :D ;) :eek:

And, she's not into men. ;)

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by guster girl
And, she's not into men. ;)


Neither am I.

So I guess Kylie and I are compatible.


:D :p

[guster girl]

That's disgusting what those individuals did. I'm not surprised at all, though. I can't even tell you how many times I've talked to soldiers who'd just gotten home and was so disappointed in the way they talk about war and death. I've met several guys and girls that just laugh about seeing people dismembered, and, even a guy that had a picture of himself standing clapping two dismembered arms together. Yeah, they're American soldiers, but, a lot of them are just young people, doing what a lot of young people do......being immature and ignorant.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by guster girl
That's disgusting what those individuals did. I'm not surprised at all, though. I can't even tell you how many times I've talked to soldiers who'd just gotten home and was so disappointed in the way they talk about war and death. I've met several guys and girls that just laugh about seeing people dismembered, and, even a guy that had a picture of himself standing clapping two dismembered arms together. Yeah, they're American soldiers, but, a lot of them are just young people, doing what a lot of young people do......being immature and ignorant. +

Sometimes gallows humor is a way we have to deal with stuff like that. The day my dad died I went to the funeral home with my brothers.....We laughed thru most of the details.

When I apologized to the director she laughed and told us that it was O.K. most families came in and fought rather viciously during the process.

Eventually, you will sit down and say to yourself, "what was I thinking???"

I think we all would be stunned having to go thru what our soldiers have.

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by RICHARD


I really wish we did have Iraq's oil...I would not be paying two bucks a gallon for dead dinosaurs.




Oh yeah.......steal the resources of other nations just so it makes *our* lives easier. What about their lives? The oil is in THEIR land, and belongs to THEM, not us. We shouldn't be so greedy. You want it just so you don't have to pay 2 bucks a gallon? My goodness!

Lizbud, have I ever told you how much I love you? :p I agree with you on everything you've said........EVERYTHING.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by popcornbird
Oh yeah.......steal the resources of other nations just so it makes *our* lives easier. What about their lives? The oil is in THEIR land, and belongs to THEM, not us. We shouldn't be so greedy. You want it just so you don't have to pay 2 bucks a gallon? My goodness!



Did I say STEAL????

I still have your apology.....
when will you pick it up?

:confused:

[guster girl]

Originally posted by RICHARD
+

Sometimes gallows humor is a way we have to deal with stuff like that

I can understand using humor to get through bad situations. I do that myself all the time. I have had to leave a funeral because I knew I was going to start laughing at an inopportune time and didn't want to offend anyone (I was just remembering funny stuff about the person). But, I've known plenty of soldiers and veterans that have many stories about how they personally kept from losing their minds from all the horror they were witnessing and experiencing firsthand, and they were able to do it in ways that weren't completely disrespectful to living and dead beings.

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by RICHARD
Did I say STEAL????

I still have your apology.....
when will you pick it up?

:confused:

I never said you said steal..........but you did say you *wish* we had their oil, and to take THEIR oil, would be stealing.

As to the apology, I'll pick it up when it shows up at the post office. :p

[Logan]

Richard, I haven't read anything offensive into anything you have said on this thread, just for the record. I think that we, as a group, just have to agree to disagree when it comes to political threads as we obviously don't all see eye to eye.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Logan
Richard, I haven't read anything offensive into anything you have said on this thread, just for the record. I think that we, as a group, just have to agree to disagree when it comes to political threads as we obviously don't all see eye to eye.

Thank you.

I admire everyone who has posted here and glad that we can have a spirited conversation about the ills of the planet.

I do know we all look at things from different perspectives, I have learned quite a bit from reading other people's opinion.

It is hard to see eye to eye with me at times.....Being tall has it's disadvantages.

:confused:

[Lady's Human]

If this war was to profit off of Iraq's oil, why not simply withdraw the UN sanctions (which we imposed at the end of gulf war round 1) and allow Iraqi oil back on the market? Cheney's theoretical allegiance to Halliburton could have been taken care of, as Halliburton is one of the few companies who would be able to rehab the Iraqi oil fields, and the US economy would have been aided by lower oil prices (OPEC would have had to allow for Iraq's production in their quotas).No, this war is not about controlling Iraqi oil. It is about removing a safe haven for terrorists.

[Edwina's Secretary]

It is about removing a safe haven for terrorists.

If that is the case...what about Saudi Arabia???? As in Osama Bin Laden?

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
If that is the case...what about Saudi Arabia???? As in Osama Bin Laden?


If you have noticed the Saudis have suffered a few bombing attacks against their government..Apparently the terrorists have taken exception to the fact that the SA's are helping the US (tho not really THAT helpful) in the quest to remove terrorists from that region...

OBL is laughable....He's just offered a price on Kofi Annan and Paul Bremer's head....he offered it in gold....I guess it wouldn't be cool to offer American dollars.....

He's such a MORON!

----------------

I still stand by the thought that if we were so evil and plotting to take the oil, we should have put the Iraqi's themselves to do the work, then stole the oil (I finally said "STEAL THE OIL"!!!!)

That way Halliburton would save money by paying the poor Iraqi's sweatshop wages!!!

It's all about profit!

[DJFyrewolf36]

I can't beleve I read this WHOLE darn thread...

And I've come to one conclusion

Most people are *insert sarcastic, insulting adjective here*

Ick...
I think I'll just hang out with my rat until the nastiness blows over :-)

Rats aren't too political unless food is involved lol

Oh and Richard?
You crack me up :D :D :D

[popcornbird]

Hey!


Originally posted by RICHARD


He's such a MORON!



We can agree on something! :p

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by popcornbird
Hey!



We can agree on something! :p

Is it time for me to leave PT???:D

[lizbud]

Originally posted by RICHARD
Is it time for me to leave PT???:D


Is that a rhetorical question ? :D :D

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
Is that a rhetorical question ? :D :D

Yes,
I'm afraid of the doorknob, I ain't got much padding back there and have had some run ins with those things before.
:confused:


They hurt.:D

-------------------------

News flash.

The gal in the pics was just charged...
I think her name is "England"....

-------------------------

WAIT A SECOND!!

This is a serious thread and good-natured ribbing breaks out.....What's going on????:D

[lizbud]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RICHARD
[B]Yes,
I'm afraid of the doorknob, I ain't got much padding back there and have had some run ins with those things before.
:confused:


They hurt.:D


Hey, tell me about it :p

Have you ever been hit right in the center of your back ?:eek:

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RICHARD
[B]


Hey, tell me about it :p

Have you ever been hit right in the center of your back ?:eek:

Yes and caught them on the hip, too....

But, my proudest moment is taking one off the top of my head.


Where I worked the restroom was a closet sized room.
The door was in front of the seat. I finished my business and as i stood I lost my balance and fell forward. I door was so close I didn't have time to get my hands up to break my fall

The knob hit me square on top of the head. I bounced off and landed back on the potty. The room went dark for about 30 seconds and I sat there, stunned, for about 5 minutes.

I was thankful that I did not lose consciousness, I was worried about someone finally opening up the door and finding me there, on the ground, with my pants at half mast.

Only in my world.
:eek:

[RICHARD]

The grandmother of Lindy England, the woman in the pics, is doing damage control by granting interviews with the press...

I am totally ticked off by some of the statements that people defending her have made..

"She was smiling at the person who took the picture", "she found a cat in Iraq and was afraid it would starve, so she cared for it", "that's not the Lindy WE know...."

For Pete's sake.......
No one ever knows what creeps around the recesses of someone else's mind.....And wasn't having your pic taken pointing at a bunch of naked guys and you holding the leash that's around the neck of a guy on the floor enough that there is no possible explanation for it??

Who wants to bet that the words "ERROR IN JUDGEMENT" makes it to the airways soon????

:mad:

[lizbud]

I think the young woman soldier was just trying to show that
she was 'one of the guys' . Just a very young, spunky, West Va.
soldier trying to fit in ? :confused:

The news today is that there's more to come in this scandal &
it's even worse than was had been reported so far in public.:(

It's on Yahoo News.

[Lady's Human]

It doesn't matter why she did it, unless under physical duress, which from the photos is obviously not the case. She should be in jail with the rest of the perpetrators. There are things that happen in military units which are regarded as team building, etc. which would be unacceptable in the civilian world. Violating the Geneva Accords isn't one of them, and she knew what she was doing was illegal.

[RICHARD]

just a little note.

I want to say thanks to everyone (you too Barbara!)
that has posted on this subject...

After seeing the feathers fly around PT I want to let you all know that keeping this thread, as controversial as the subject is, moving along has been a real experience...

I want to apologize to everyone that I may have offended and that might have had a problem with my posts. I'm not always the
easiest person to understand and put up with but I want you all to know that I enjoy the banter, the challenges and the different opinions.......


It's truly enjoyable to have a deep discussion, punctuated by some silliness@!

[smokey the elder]

I saw an article in Yahoo! News about how the prevalence of digital cameras has changed how the world sees war and the "seamy underbelly" of same. It exposes (pun intended) all aspects of what's going on. Transparency has a way of leading to cleanup of the dark corners of the world.

If one were to consider that one's actions would show up on a Web site halfway around the world, one might reconsider.

I agree with the whole "illegal orders" thing. "I was just following orders" didn't fly in 1946 and it won't fly in 2004.

I'm disturbed about the large amount of women involved in this prisoner torture. (Let's call it what it is.)


I'm encouraged that the President has offered an apology. This is never easy for an American president to do. Look at the plane that got shot down spying on China.

I think Rumsfeld blew it. He should have disclosed this information to the Commander in Chief right away. The President, as Commander in Chief, needs to know of such abuses.

[RICHARD]

Some of the soldier's families and soldiers themselves made statements that they were "never trained to handle prisoners"..

I always thought humanity was a virtue, not a another 2 week class in basic training.

[carole]

Yeah sounds like they are trying to make excuses for their behaviour, for which there are none.

[popcornbird]

According to the Red Cross..........


Abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers was widespread and routine, the report finds — contrary to President Bush's contention that the mistreatment "was the wrongdoing of a few."

I find this incredibly distrubing. I wonder if they have been doing this for ages, and it was just NOW that they got exposed for their evil doings. What's the difference between Saddam and these US troops? Really........if you think about it........what's the difference? :( They're doing EXACTLY the same thing.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20040511/ap_on_re_mi_ea/red_cross_prisoner_abuse

[2kitties]

It's awful Pops and those guilty lowlifes should be courtmarshalled, punished and made to serve as examples.

But to compare an honorable American Soldier to Saddam is --- well-- I don't have words for how wrong it is. When my father, grandfather, 2 uncles, and great great grandfathers served our country, not to meantion many other of my loved ones, I can promise you with all my heart they were on a level of humanity that Saddam Hussein could never even imagine, much less aspire to.

I hope we can all believe that you can't liken the average American soldier to this nastiness any more than you can liken the average Muslim to terrorism, or the average black person to gangs or the average southerner to racism or--- the list goes on. Isn't that kind of generalization what we've all been fighting against?

[Logan]

I totally agree with you, 2kitties. Does that scare you? :eek: Ha Ha!!!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by popcornbird
What's the difference between Saddam and these US troops? Really........if you think about it........what's the difference?

Saddam was pulling body parts off of HIS people, gassing them
and bending them into shapes that no human body could endure.

Who spoke for them???

If it's any consolation, the people tortured in this scandal at least have a voice.

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by 2kitties
It's awful Pops and those guilty lowlifes should be courtmarshalled, punished and made to serve as examples.

But to compare an honorable American Soldier to Saddam is --- well-- I don't have words for how wrong it is. When my father, grandfather, 2 uncles, and great great grandfathers served our country, not to meantion many other of my loved ones, I can promise you with all my heart they were on a level of humanity that Saddam Hussein could never even imagine, much less aspire to.


OHHHH I didn't mean to compare every American soldier to Saddam. I did not mean that AT ALL!!! I was comparing the ones involved in the sexual/physical abuse of the prisoners. Those people, have no honor in my eyes. You cannot generalize all of the troops because of this, because most of them, simply, are NOT such people. I was comparing the ones involved in the abuse to Saddam..........no one else! Don't get me wrong. :)

[Logan]

I'm glad you explained yourself, PCB!!! :)

[2kitties]

I know what ya mean Pops. Didn't mean to sound like I was pointing you out. Just wanted to clarify that there are decent- more decent than I'll ever be- people in the American service. And I know that there are more people than not in the service and even the goverment who have honorable intentions for this quagmire we call the war against terror.

Then there are those who make MILITARY prisoners get naked and be humiliated and abused.
Then there are these people: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.main/index.html whose idea of en eye for an eye toward CIVILIANS is clearly nearsighted.

[RICHARD]

I tried to post the Nick Berg story earlier.


What a bunch of brave people those terrorists are, hiding their faces in the photos and videos...
and then yelling "god is great" right before they
cut this guys head off...

Chances are we won't hear squat from the arab league about that....

We also have the palestinian's using dead Israeli's bodies as barganing chips...

You know, I was pretty disgusted with the photos from the Iraqi prison, that showed all of humanity sinking to new depths...But to make a video tape of an execution like that shows why the whole world has to band together to stop this kind of madness...

I liken it to living in a neighborhood and having the police kicking down doors trying to find criminals living in that area....If the people on that street refuse to assist the authorities in eliminating this kind of scum, those same people have NO right to complain and moan about that kind of police action taking place.

[DJFyrewolf36]

Originally posted by RICHARD


I always thought humanity was a virtue, not a another 2 week class in basic training.

Well said Richard! You'd think....

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by 2kitties
I know what ya mean Pops. Didn't mean to sound like I was pointing you out. Just wanted to clarify that there are decent- more decent than I'll ever be- people in the American service. And I know that there are more people than not in the service and even the goverment who have honorable intentions for this quagmire we call the war against terror.

Then there are those who make MILITARY prisoners get naked and be humiliated and abused.
Then there are these people: http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.main/index.html whose idea of en eye for an eye toward CIVILIANS is clearly nearsighted.

So you know what I meant? Does that mean you were calling the troops that committed these acts honorable?!?! :eek: My goodness. I don't think people forcing others to commit homosexual acts with each other, having sex with prisoners, pulling naked prisoners on a leash, terrorizing them by tying them up naked and surrounding them with dogs, abusing and humiliating them, etc. are honorable in ANY sense of the word! The soldier that has the most honor in my eyes is the one who exposed this whole situation. He sure is one wonderful, brave man, who had the courage to do the right thing. I know there are MANY good ones like him. I was only comparing the troops committing these abuses to Saddam.

I know.......I just read that story on CNN. I have no words to describe my anger on that. :mad: I hate these people. I hate all of this crap going on in the world. I hate it. Sickening..........absolutely sickening. :(:mad:

As to what you said about US troops doing it to military people, I'm listening to the radio right now, and they're saying 90% of the people held in the prison are innocent and have nothing to do with anything going on. 90% are NOT military prisoners. Our troops that did this, abused innocent people as well. I hate them all.....(the troops committing these crimes as well as those crazy, mad Al-Qaeda/Saddam people). :mad: Sometimes I wish I wasn't born in this crazy world.

[2kitties]

Pops, where do you get that I said the abuse was honorable? That isn't at all what I was saying. You know me better than that.

[RICHARD]

pcb,

This is a real touchy subject for everyone.

There are times when I read thru a post and get really angry, then, for good measure, I read thru it again and see that I drop words and read with my heart..

If I may...

There are America soldiers, citizens and citizen/soldiers who are rebuilding Iraq as we speak....The only time we hear about them is when they are assasinated for trying to help the people of Iraq....

The people who are in charge of MOST of the Middle eastern countries would like nothing better than to see the US fall flat on their faces.....

I mean, here comes a country and does more for the people than the people in charge.

Who's the evil empire then?

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by 2kitties
Pops, where do you get that I said the abuse was honorable? That isn't at all what I was saying. You know me better than that.

Oh I'm so sorry. I guess I misunderstood you. I went back and read your post, and wondered where on earth I got that from. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Of course I know you better than that.........that is why I was shocked that you would say something like that. Now that I went back, I see that I misread your post. Next time, I will read posts 10 times before hitting the reply button. :p

[2kitties]

<<-- sends pops a big ole kiss

[carole]

I know this is off topic, A New Zealander was just killed in Iraq, he was doing a job there, re-building the country , he was an engineer, can we just spare a thought for his family right now, I know he is one of many, his car was ambushed, he along with two other men were killed, their car riveted with bullets.

And PCB I hear ya, and I agree with you too.!!

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by 2kitties
<<-- sends pops a big ole kiss

:o :p He he he

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by carole
I know this is off topic, A New Zealander was just killed in Iraq, he was doing a job there, re-building the country

It's not off topic.

It a sign that he thought enough of other people to take a chance and make someone else's world a bit better.

God bless him and his family.

[RICHARD]

I just heard the last 37 seconds of the videotape.


God bless the people who killed that man.


There can only be forgiveness for people who have no souls.

[Pam]

Originally posted by RICHARD
I tried to post the Nick Berg story earlier.

You know, I was pretty disgusted with the photos from the Iraqi prison, that showed all of humanity sinking to new depths...But to make a video tape of an execution like that shows why the whole world has to band together to stop this kind of madness...


Amen Richard. The insane depravity of this execution makes me sick to my stomach. May God be with his family and help them through this. What a horrid thing to see that video knowing it was his last and what was to follow. It's hard to imagine hatred running that deep. Scares the cr@p out of me for the future of this world. :( :( :(

[lizbud]

One American soldier's videp diary will be shown/discussed on
the next 60 Minutes II program next week.The woman soldier
talks about her feelings in being inside the prison.....


By Giles Elgood

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - An American soldier's video diary showing her disdain for Iraqi detainees who died in her charge is to be broadcast by a U.S. network on Wednesday in a further escalation of the prisoner abuse scandal that has shaken the Bush administration and provoked world outrage.


CBS, which two weeks ago broadcast the first pictures of Iraqi prisoners being abused in Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, said on Tuesday its "60 Minutes II" program would show video footage depicting conditions there and at another U.S.-run prison in southern Iraq (news - web sites) called Camp Bucca.


Photographs of Iraqi prisoners being sexually humiliated, threatened by dogs and piled into pyramids as grinning American soldiers look on have been published round the world, dealing a major setback to U.S. attempts to stabilize Iraq.


The Pentagon (news - web sites) has said that it has more pictures and video of abuse that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has warned may be even more shocking.


An Islamic Web site said on Tuesday that an American civilian, Nick Berg from Philadelphia, had been beheaded by an al Qaeda leader in Iraq in revenge for the "Satanic degradation" of Iraqi prisoners.


CBS said the home video did not show scenes of abuse but included comments by the soldier, whose name was not revealed to protect her identity, that make clear her dislike for the camp and the prisoners under her control.


"I hate it here," she said on the tape. "I want to come home. I want to be a civilian again. We actually shot two prisoners today. One got shot in the chest for swinging a pole against our people on the feed team. One got shot in the arm. We don't know if the one we shot in the chest is dead yet."


In her video, the soldier described the hazards of Camp Bucca. "This is a sand viper," she said. "One bite will kill you in six hours. We've already had two prisoners die of it, but who cares? That's two less for me to worry about."


The soldier said about three prisoners broke out of the camp every week, but they did not try to escape when she was on duty.


"It's 'cause they are scared of me," she said. "I actually got in trouble the other day because I was throwing rocks at them."


CBS said another soldier spoke of a chaotic situation at Camp Bucca with a dangerously low ratio of guards to prisoners.


Tim Canjar, who was discharged from the military for abusing Iraqi prisoners, said that during one disturbance "at one point, it was me and another soldier guarding. I was watching 535 prisoners on my side ... The prisoners started hitting us."


Fellow soldier Lisa Girman, who was discharged with Canjar, said commanders ignored the problems at Camp Bucca.


She complained of "the ignorance of the chain of command not to listen to the person who was actually on the front line."


Girman's and Canjar's families tried to draw attention to the problems at Camp Bucca last year. They called Rumsfeld's office repeatedly and talked to his staff, but got no response, CBS said. Their letters to the White House and two senators were also unanswered.


Girman and Canjar, and a third soldier, Scott McKenzie, were discharged for punching and kicking Iraqi prisoners. They have vowed to appeal the decision and want the U.S. Congress to investigate.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
Photographs of Iraqi prisoners being sexually humiliated, threatened by dogs and piled into pyramids as grinning American soldiers look on have been published round the world, dealing a major setback to U.S. attempts to stabilize Iraq.






Listen to Nick Berg scream with his last breath.... and listen to the chant of his executioners, calling that their god is great.

I hope that anyone who hears it remembers it for a long time..

And I hope it rallies all the muslims to denounce that kind of horror....

From among that din you'd think that some decent, humane voice would rise above the others...

I hope the backlash from this tape is a rallying cry for all humanity to stop this nonsense....They really think showing a man having his head taken off his body helps their case??

I should think not.

Two wrongs don't make a right.....but the silence afterwards is just as damning.

[RICHARD]

And before I forget....

The media in the US has shown those photos time after time.
To support the troops now is to put this into perspective-they ain't all like that.

Sometimes chipping away at the few bad ones, paints everyone else in that same color...

We effed up.....

And it makes no sense to keep beating our breasts trying to atone for the sins of the few......Those few painted all Americans
for the planet. Uninformed people will believe that we are all like that.

We are sorry.

And while we wait for Uncle Sam to lose the black eye, some punks dress up and cuts the head off of a person who wasn't even in the fight.

It shows me a lot.

While we put a face to our 'bad guys' the bad guys on the other side hide under ski masks and some headbands. They pick the 'toughest guy' out of the crowd for the execution-all the while screaming to their god that he is good.

Morons can't even figure out that any god would look at them, shake his head and toss them out of the joint.

We all fear what we can't put a face to, but in the end what does it matter? Evil only wins for a little while, and they know it.

Why not take on the Army, the Marines??

Nope, they pick on some young man trying to help the Iraqi people out and most of arab world can't grasp that...They side with the people that have kept then poor, isolated and in fear.

I once saw a picture of the earth from space, it showed the cities
at night. Patches of light all across the globe....until you hit the Middle East..The caption on the picture made a mention of that fact.

It makes it easier to accept the stories coming out of that area.

And I thought about what the people there feared more-

the darkness - or the men who have kept the light from reaching them.

-----------------------------------

There was 535 prisoners, they began to hit us.

So that entitled us to bag their heads, dog pile them naked and
pull all kinds of other stunts like that.....Why we even took pictures!


The same pictures that the media shows us over and over....
And when the wound stops bleeding let's take the bandage off and poke it some more-we haven't bled enough.

Isn't blood the all purpose cleanser in the world......


An eye for an eye..:rolleyes:

[2kitties]

<<gets into bed with Richard.

[catcrazylady]

I'm never in the doghouse! I do occasionaly come and read through as I find everyones differing opinions very interesting. I feel like I had no choice today as this horrific beheading has me terribly upset.
I have a stepson in Iraq who is in the Army and doing his service on a tank. He is stationed in Baghdad but was sent into Fallujah(sp) when all the trouble broke out. We currently have no idea where he is. We know that he is alive somewhere since the dreaded telegram or phone call has not come. I also have a brother is who is a police officer that has recently sent in his resume to go to Iraq to help with security. He is feeling so distraught and useless here watching it all on TV that he thinks he can maybe do something to help if he where actually there. My husband is a Vietnam Veteran who is sick over this whole thing but chomping at the bit to go do something to help the young soldiers. He feels that those who have served and understand this type of warfare can be helpful. He is too old now but the stress of his son and the memories of a similar war are really taking a toll on him.
My original views about us going to Iraq raised many questions but I will always support our troops 150%. After the recent outbreaks of American hostages and now this sickening beheading I think we should pull out lock stock and barrel!
Here is why I feel that way... I am a very reasonable person and I know that the Iraqi people have been severly oppressed and were in need of help. I believe that every nation should have stood up and put a stop to Saddam long ago. It was a Crimes Against Humanity issue for the last thirty years! But they didn't and we went in to end their oppression and stop terrorism. Ok, now we are there. We have Saddam, helped build a new government, working on restoring all basic needs, and generally trying to rebuild everything for them before we leave.
Now we have threats, hostage taking, RPG's killing drivers, and now a beheading. Until the Iraqi people stand together and say that this is wrong, we don't approve, and we will punish you for your crimes, then it will never change. I don't foresee any of the Middle East countries ever actually doing anything about the tactics of terrororism. If their own people won't make a stand then there is no way we can stop it. They don't like us and the majority hate us. I don't think anything we can do will ever make that stop.
So, because of our STUPID MEDIA we now have more pissed off terrorists with an excuse! The United States is being judged by the actions of a few very wrong soldiers. What if we viewed all of Iraq like their few stupid terrorists? We would wipe them off the face of the earth with just a small supply of our very powerful weapons!!! A couple of Daisy bombs and we could all go home!!!!!!!!!
I am so angry over these deaths and threats and that there is not a rise from the "Innocent Iraqi" people saying that this has to stop!! Where are the powerful Clerics??? They have so much power and yet all they say is that is not the right way and you don't hear anything more from them. Everything that I have ever learned about the Muslim religion has been a very beautiful thing. This crap that is going on has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or Allah or God or Muhammed!!! They scream "Holy War" and that makes it all ok because its done in the name of religion. BULL CRAP! They are mean, nasty, blood thirsty terrorists that are jealous of our American lives and the freedom we have!!!
If the people can't come together and help us help them then I say enough is enough and Adios Amigos!!!
I am also upset that this MURDER is not the latest talk at work! Has this become so common place that we just tend to let it go now?! I seem to be the only one that wants to discuss it. GEESH!
Ok, I know I don't have the answers to everything and I'm sure I would not handle any of it in the right way but it sure felt good to say(write) it and get it off of my chest!!!
May God Bless all of our troops and help ease the pain of the faimilies who have lost people. May a special blessing go to the family of the latest victim because they will have an image of this innocents death that hopefully none of us will ever have to know.

[2kitties]

taken from USA Today:
"Sen. Joe Lieberman, D-Conn, said that the military's investigations into the misconduct could be an opportunity to demonstrate the difference between the United States and Islamic terrorists. "There will be no al-Qaeda apologies," Lieberman said of the beheading."

Mr. Lieberman did not get my vote for VP. But sometimes, I really think he speaks from a thoughtful place. He's a very intelligent man who I think is a good official.

[Logan]

I think you are right on regarding Joe Lieberman, 2Kitties. OMG! I have agreed with you again!!! :eek:

In all seriousness, of all the Democratic candidates we saw earlier in the year, he is the one that was the most level headed and concerned.

[catcrazylady]

Perhaps this is why the people in the middle east cannot speak up - living in the dark of fear all their lives??? I dunno....

I agree and I know we can't pull out now. It's nice to wish for though. I think my biggest problem is that I don't have much tolerence for weakness. Now don't misunderstand because we all have weaknesses, that is part of human nature, but enough is enough!!! The majority of them are willing to die for what they believe in so in my opinion they need to GET UP AND START HELPING OUT THOSE WHO ARE TRYING TO HELP THEM!!! If they don't want our help then, FINE! If they think they were oppressed before wait until the Taliban and AlQueda(sp) come in and take over the country! There comes a time when you have to grow up, put up, and if you choose to SHUT UP then accept the consequences!
I'm sorry but I'm so upset about this whole thing!!!

Of course I sit here and talk about pulling out and if Kerry gets in and does such a thing I would be having a fit!!!

I know we can't leave them yet but I think there should be some ultimatums or something to get the Iraqi people to stop letting us handle everything!They would have far more pride in their country if they helped reshape it. It obviously isn't fear holding them back because they sure can gather a crowd to throw rocks at the troops and yell anti-american crap! Flag burning really brings out the power in them, don't you think? We keep wanting to see these poor weak Iraqi's but I see some pretty powerful ones on the news! Imagine if the fury that Americans seem to ignite in them were turned against terrorists? There would be no need for us ever worry again.

[catcrazylady]

Those creeps we see are largely young people with nothing better to do - smug and radical - the peaceful citizens more than likely crouching quietly in their homes.

I also agree with that statement but it is time for the people to start redirecting the young and radical to something more constructive. The peaceful citizens need to stop crouching quietly and get up, make some noise, and make a difference!

I agree with everything you have said Sirrahbed but I'm not as patient or as tolerant as you. I will hold out for so long but then thats it. I don't want to flatten the whole place but I do want the Iraqi's to start standing beside us as we fight for them! I don't even care if they stand behind us! I just want them to stop crouching and get up and stand somewhere!!!!

[Edwina's Secretary]

This seems a bit like the story of the boy who kills his mother and father and then pleads for the court's mercy because he is an orphan....

The United States was not asked to liberate Iraq so why do we expect gratitude?

There are many oppressive regimes around the world...North Korea for example... but the partisan decision was made to "liberate" Iraq. Now it is not going well so it is everyone's fault...except those who made the decision to start the battle....

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by 2kitties
<<gets into bed with Richard.


Are your feet warm?
;) :eek:

----------------------------------

As a patient American I think we should give the arab world another 5 minutes to recognize what THEIR people have done......If nothing happens, we lump them all together..

Political correctness be damned.
This goes beyond embarrassing a bunch of men in a prison. Only animals are beyond talking....and I think we have found a new species.

And I invite anyone, who does have a soul, to at least listen to the last 37 seconds of that tape.
Then make up you own mind.....BUT DO NOT COMMENT UNTIL YOU DO....You probably won't say much until you get the bile taste out of your mouth.

Then listen closely to the outrage in that part of the world.:rolleyes:

[Edwina's Secretary]

Nor were we attacked by Iraq.

They are many who have been opposed from the beginning. Including me. In fact, I believed, if he became president, Bush would find a war to fight.

And I also believe that Americans were seriously mislead about the situation in Iraq....WMD, etc. and were deliberately mislead to believe that there was a connection between 9/11 and Iraq.

[catcrazylady]

I heard a comment the other day that totally blew my mind.

"If Bush had not been elected I don't think 9-11 would have happened. I think it was because of his dad"

Does anyone really believe that all of that planning and money that was spent to arrange such an elaborate plan of attack would have been left undone if anyone else were put in office? Does anyone really think that this form of life that is lower than any animal really gives a crap about who was president? Is it the need to find blame? Is it so hard to place the blame where it belongs? It is as if we want to pity the backwards souls and place the blame on Bush.

According to CNN and Fox news the beheading hasn't even made some of the Arab papers. The few that did report it didn't make it priority.
Oh well, another dead American. A group of maniacs cut off his head but we don't want to give them press.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by sirrahbed

What killed 200.000 Iraqui Kurds???
A bad falafel?
Bad couscous?
Or bad shish kebabs?

[RICHARD]

I am sorry to say that this video and the inaction of muslim faith at large is far more damaging to them then our indiscretions with a bunch of prisoners. It has discredited an ancient religion that has many followers that do disaprove of an action like this....


I liken it to a street gang that hides thier faces to pull off a crime like this...then they hoot and
holler like the jackals they are, all the while slinking away when the lights go on.

They credit their god, their religion and al queda as their cause...

What a bunch of AH's.....

And the funniest/saddest part is that they wear American jeans, shoes, watch American movies and embrace all the American fads.....

I am not afraid of them.

If we turn tail and run we'll get another beating like we took on 9/11...

They truly believe that we will cower when we her the word al queda, osama bin laden and terrorism...

Back on Dec 7, 1941 we took a hit and we got together, held together and made it through that period in time....

Why can't we do it again?

[catcrazylady]

Richard, I so agree! I know I said we should just pack it up but I don't really believe that. It was more of a retaliation remark, you know, like leave them to their own devices and see how far they get!!
I guess I'm an idiot but it would be nice to see a little gratitude and if nothing else I would certainly like to see a rise of the people against the torture of Americans. They were outraged over the torture of their own people by Saddam but seem to take the torture and murder of Americans all in stride. The sad thing is I think its becoming the same way here in the States. I have heard comments today along the lines of "Well they (Americans) should have known the risks when you went over there" I don't know that anyone thinks about being beheaded on video by a bunch of sick demons!!!!!!!
Anyway, Richard let me know when you think their 5 minutes is up! My clock is moving rather swiftly.

[RICHARD]

Times up.

[jonza]

One of the greatest tragedies in all this mess is that there were NO TERRORISTS in Iraq when the war started. Saddam made sure of that, and he had no connection to Al Quaida etc. (Bin Laden apparently despised him). It is also untrue to use the argument that "our country was brutally attacked" by Iraq. It wasn't. And: "We are not fighting "Iraq" - we are fighting the maniacs who are hiding in that country!" isn't quite true, they weren't there before America gave them the golden opportunity. Who were you fighting when you first invaded then? Saddam of course, not terrorists.
Now Iraq is crawling with terrorists, and the arab world hates America and the West even more bitterly than ever before.

There are an awful lot of people outside America who are of the opinion that Pres. Bush and his staff have done irreparable damage to the stability of the world. Like it or not, this is a fact. One can't help speculating that perhaps Bush started this as a personal vendetta due to Saddams' run in with his father. There have been too many lies, half truths and hypocrisy from this administration (is it a true representation of the American people? - I would prefer to think not).

The very least that the administration can be blamed for is a total lack of understanding of what it could and would lead to, and little interest in the problems that would emerge when the rebuilding of Iraq became necessary. They just don't seem to understand the mentality of people and cultures so different from themselves.

Now the unthinkable has happened, and America has to sort this out fast. The longer that Bush and Rumsfeld and the others wait before taking serious action to convince the rest of the world that they mean it, the worse the situation will become. They have both stood up and said "sorry" in a very low voice, but what is going to happen? Are some out-of-line bad apples in the military going to get a "reprimand"? That's nowhere near good enough. The whole chain of command has to be thoroughly investigated, and the sooner the better.

The argument that the other guys are much worse than us just doesn't do it I'm afraid, even though they are. The administration should have known this sort of reaction would come when it started the whole thing. I have little understanding of American politicians, but not blaming Bush then blaming "that blabbermouth coward KERRY and the stupid irresponsible MEDIA", isn't accepted as a rational argument outside America.
How on earth did they think the Iraqis were going to react? "In a civilized manner" perhaps?

And lets try and get the message out: terrorism is not Islam, it's sick people misusing it. I am amazed at the general ignorance of Islam and what it stands for. It has it's faults, and Sharia law and other excesses are totally unacceptable, but Christian fundamentalists and extremists are often no better I'm afraid. We must remember that a lot of terrible things have been done in the name of Christianity too.

How sad for all those upright honest soldiers that are down there in hell risking their lives and being let down by their leaders and dumped on by an indiscriminate, news hungry media. I have a very great respect for them.

[Edwina's Secretary]

That same terrorism is going to exist more and more in our own country if we do not do something.


And I believe the invasion of Iraq will enccourage terrorism more than most anything else. Someone said.."if the people we are holding in these prisons weren't terrorist before, they will be now.

If the WMD haven't been found by this administration's OWN weapons hunters, who will find them? (One of my favorite quips...of course we know Iraq has WMD...we have the receipts.)

I haven't found the "liberal" press yet! I think they are being entirely too soft on this administration. Their job is to report the news.

I believe this adminstration and this war has done more than anything to damage the standing of the United States of America to the rest of the world ...friend and foe alike. I hope we can recover....

And as for those young people...I want them home with their children, their families. NOT in some foriegn country dying for a reason I have not yet heard articulated.

(And by the way...why aren't we allowed by this administration to see the coffins of those who don't make it home??? I read in my newspaper...not known for its liberal bias!... of each soldier killed there. How it breaks my heart.)

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by jonza

Now the unthinkable has happened, and America has to sort this out fast.


Unthinkable what?

One guy gets snuffed on a tape and that is supposed to cow us? Dude, they took out 3,000
people on one day and we are still on the planet..

That just shows their desparation and their inability to cobble together their 'army'.

It takes more that a bunch of punks with a video camera to scare us.


Lol, I'd be pissed off if I lived in a country that hasn't been able to give the people a wooden floor in 2000 years.......instead of being pissed off at the people who have kept them down they choose to take it out on us.....Look at all the countries who planned on world domination as a part of the plan and tell me where are they now?

We have made it to Formica floors in 227 years.

American braggadocio??? Yep, we worked ourselves to where we are today.....I think we deserve that much credit. But hey, when things go wrong, call up the Americans, they'll help us.......

Next time we should take the phone off the hook...

"I'm sorry, the number you have dialed is out of order or has been temporarily diconnected, please check the number you have dialed."

Thank you for your support.

[lbaker]

I think Jonza has it right on (if you will pardon the dated expression). It's high time we opened out ears and eyes to honest opinions from someone from outside the USA who we have known, admired and laughed and cried with over the years, thank you Jonza.

[jonza]

Originally posted by RICHARD
Unthinkable what?

Sorry, I didn't make that clear. I was referring to the fact that American and British soldiers have been discovered committing grossly unacceptable acts in the prisons in Iraq.

[Pam]

Originally posted by 2kitties

Mr. Lieberman did not get my vote for VP. But sometimes, I really think he speaks from a thoughtful place. He's a very intelligent man who I think is a good official.

He was the one with the brain on the ticket last time, at least in my opinion. Had he been the lead the Democrats might have won.

All of that aside and back to the issues at hand, this thread has been a pleasure to read. Thank you all for that! I have nothing to contribute but just to say we have some really good minds here at PT and the dialog has been good all around on both sides of these difficult issues.

PS - Small rant here. Since Nick Berg is from the suburbs of Philly and I am about 10 miles outside of Philly the media is especially filled with the local aspects of the story. What grates on my nerves is the fact that reporters from all over the world are camped outside of his family's home to the extent that they are having a hard time getting through the crowd just running routine errands. :mad: Can't they just leave these heartbroken family members in peace to do their grieving and try and deal with their shattered lives. :mad:

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by jonza
Sorry, I didn't make that clear. I was referring to the fact that American and British soldiers have been discovered committing grossly unacceptable acts in the prisons in Iraq.


thanks.

I thought you were talking about letting innocent American citizens wander about Iraq.

--------------------------------------


And finally,

The people who have brought you Homicidal Bus Bombings are said to have released a blurb and have condemned the Nic Berg murder.

Hezbollah, the palestinian terrorist group claimed that the execution of Berg is NOT what Islam is all about.

I am stumped.

[catcrazylady]

Could this get any more confusing?

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by catcrazylady
Could this get any more confusing?

Wait until you see the statement.....:eek:

Hizbollah Slams Beheading of American as Un-Islamic
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Lebanon's Hizbollah guerrilla group condemned Wednesday the beheading of an American hostage by Iraqi militants as an ugly crime that flouted the tenets of Islam.
"Hizbollah condemns this horrible act that has done very great harm to Islam and Muslims by this group that claims affiliation to the religion of mercy, compassion and humane principles," the Shi'ite Muslim group said in a statement.

An Islamist Web site Tuesday carried a video clip of the execution of the man who identified himself as Nick Berg, with a statement saying a group linked to al Qaeda did it in revenge for the abuse of Iraqis by U.S. troops.

Hizbollah said Berg's killing had diverted the world's gaze from an escalating furor over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by occupation soldiers.

"The timing of this act that overshadowed the scandal over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners in occupation forces prisons is suspect timing that aims to serve the American administration and occupation forces in Iraq and present excuses and pretexts for their inhumane practices against Iraqi detainees."

The Syrian-backed group which the United States deems "terrorist" said the executors' behavior was closer to "the Pentagon school -- the school of killing and occupation and crimes and torture and immoral practices that were exposed by the great scandal in occupation prisons."

Washington blames Hizbollah, whose attacks forced Israeli troops to withdraw from south Lebanon in 2000 after a 22-year occupation, for 1980s suicide bombings against its embassy and Marines barracks and the abduction of Westerners in Beirut

---------------------

Until I got the caveat I was doing O.K.


It's a start in the right direction.....
:)

We killed Berg ourselves.....:rolleyes:

[popcornbird]

Here's what Nicholas Berg's family had to say about the inhumane and brutal killing of their son.......:(


In an interview with Boston radio station WBUR on Tuesday, Berg's father, Michael, said: "I still hold [Rumsfeld] responsible because if they had let him ago after a more reasonable amount of time or if they had given him access to lawyers we could have gotten him out of there before the hostilities escalated.

"That's really what cost my son his life was the fact that the U.S. government saw fit to keep him in custody for 13 days without any of his due process or civil rights and released him when they were good and ready."

The interviewer asked, "Do you really blame Donald Rumsfeld for your son's death? And will you do anything in addition to that lawsuit you had filed?"

Michael Berg responded, "It goes further than Donald Rumsfeld. It's the whole Patriot Act, it's the whole feeling of this country that rights don't matter anymore because there are terrorists about.

"Well, in my opinion 'terrorist' is just another word like 'communist' or 'witch,' and it's a witch hunt, and this whole administration is just representing something that is not America, not the America I grew up in."


And here's what the United Arab Emirates had to say.........yes Richard. An Arab government condemned the killing.


The United Arab Emirates condemned the beheading as a "heinous crime against the civilized world."

"We are ashamed because these terrorists carried out this revolting and inhumane act in the name of our religion and culture," UAE Information Minister Sheikh Abdullah bin Zayed al-Nahayan said in a written statement.

"This disgusting brutality can never be justified and has nothing to do with Islam or with our Arab values."


And here's where I got these quotes from....... http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/12/iraq.berg/index.html

What's interesting is all this time, not a single Arab nation said a word about the humiliation and abuse of the prisoners. The Western countries spoke against it, but the Arab countries didn't say a word. (I'm pointing this out at governments, not the people of the nations) I just found that kinda odd...........This whole thing is so confusing.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by popcornbird



And here's what the United Arab Emirates had to say.........yes Richard. An Arab government condemned the killing.



What's interesting is all this time, not a single Arab nation said a word about the humiliation and abuse of the prisoners. The Western countries spoke against it, but the Arab countries didn't say a word. (I'm pointing this out at governments, not the people of the nations) I just found that kinda odd...........This whole thing is so confusing.

Thanks...

I appreciate the link.

[lizbud]

American Senators had to view the 'other' abuse photos
today. They were given two hours to review them, but they
remain in custody of the Pentagon Officials.


Senators See Abu Ghraib Prison Photos Held by Defense Department
Photos Show Snarling Dogs, Disrobed Iraqi Women
By William Branigin
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 12, 2004; 5:42 PM


Members of Congress today expressed shock and disgust after viewing hundreds of photographs and video clips related to the abuse of U.S.-held prisoners in Iraq, material that they said would be withheld from the public to protect the integrity of military trials and to avoid further inflaming America's enemies.



"What we saw is appalling," said Sen. Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), the Senate majority leader, after the Defense Department brought a computer disc containing the digital photos and video clips to Capitol Hill and displayed them on a computer in a closed-door meeting.

Frist said the photos were "consistent" with those that have been publicized to date. He added, "They go beyond that in many ways in terms of the various activities that are depicted, some totally unrelated to the Abu Ghraib prison or to the prisoners there."

He said, "Many of these photographs . . . appeared to relate to the abuse of prisoners. And then there were many, many others that were unrelated, but very, very appalling to all of the senators who saw them." He provided no further explanation.

"We left with a feeling of disappointment that the behavior of a few has reflected in a way that unfortunately hurts the reputation of the thousands, tens of thousands, 130,000 or more armed services personnel over there fighting for us each and every day," Frist said.

Frist and Sen. John W. Warner (R-Va.), the chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, declined to specify what the photos and videos showed, noting that they are part of active investigations.

Warner, whose committee is looking into the prisoner abuse scandal, said the material would remain under the control of the Pentagon, which is taking disciplinary action against some of the military police personnel who allegedly participated in the abuses late last year at the Abu Ghraib prison west of Baghdad.

Keeping the pictures under wraps "protects the integrity of the legal process" and avoids "inspiring the enemy" to harm members of the U.S.-led coalition or civilians in Iraq, Warner said. Revenge for the prison abuse was cited as a motive by the killers of Nicholas Berg, an American civilian who was beheaded in Iraq in a videotape that was posted on an Islamic militant group's Web site yesterday.

Warner indicated that the photos are likely to become public at some point, since no one knows how many copies have been made or who has them. But he said they would not be released by the executive branch or by Congress.

Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.) said, "What I have seen is disgusting and it is disappointing." He said there were "obvious examples in videos of inhumane treatment" and that, in one photo, he counted seven or eight troops in a hallway in which several Iraqi prisoners were tied together naked on the floor.

"Now, you can't tell me that all of this was going on with seven or eight Army privates," Nelson said. "And so the question is: How far up the chain of command did these orders [go], and where did that failure of the command and control occur? And we're going to get to the bottom of it."

Nelson said one poor-quality video appeared to show Iraqi prisoners about to be sodomized, although "it's not clear that the actual act of sodomy was being perpetrated on the videos that I've just seen."

He said he did not see any videos showing rape, either of a male or female prisoner. He said there were "attempted medical treatments in the prison" that he did not further describe. And he said he saw what appeared to be "some wounds from dogs."

"This is aberrant behavior, and we need to find out who the perpetrators were, where the command and control lapsed and bring these folks to justice," Nelson said.

In answer to a reporter's question, he said, "Some of the videos are more disturbing than the still photos that you've seen."

Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) said that in addition to photos that have already appeared in the press, "there were some other pictures . . . involving interaction between our own troops, but not involving any Iraqis."

Rep. Jane Harman (D-Calif.), the ranking Democrat on the House Intelligence Committee, said what most shocked her was a video clip of a handcuffed prisoner beating his head against a wall. She said another video showed a group of men masturbating.


© 2004 The Washington Post Company

[RICHARD]

Well some emm effer, like Harman, will let a photo or two slip in order the inflame the the voters.

She gets a new boss and all is well on the political scene...


I guarantee that some photos end up on the web and all the house 'intelligent' committee members will point fingers at each other....


Just by looking at what the 'D's said, as opposed to what the 'R's
are quoted as saying makes me believe that the writer has a little agenda going there.


I wonder if you have to be a "Master Debater" to hold a job like
Harman's?
:rolleyes:


BTW,

Matt Drudge, the speaker of truth and all that is right in the world- has posted some of the still pictures of the Berg murder.....

I won't post a link or even bother to describe how you can find them-No, I didn't look for the pics or see the video......


The 37 seconds that I spent last night listening to a man being murdered were enough for me..It literally made me sick to my stomach.


I really wish that someone would avenge my embarrassment the time I had that pair of women's panties on my head......


Oops!

I did it myself!!:eek: :rolleyes: :confused: ;) :)

[2kitties]

Boy did I screw up this morning. Me and my nosey self just HAD to see the pics. I didn't even see teh video or hear the sound but I saw the stillls. I saw the bloody, awful stilld and the head at various places and being help up.
Don't watch it, no matter how tempted you are. It will do no good to see that kind of thing. I won't post about my thoughts right now because it's safe to say they'd get me kicked off pet talk and probably made a military prisoner myself. I will say that there is no punishment enough for the people wearing the masks in the video.

[Logan]

Someone sent me the link. No thanks. I can't imagine watching and I know it had to be upsetting for you 2kitties. This is a horrible, horrible thing, no matter what the story is behind "why" it happened. :( :( :(

[jonza]

I really didn't want to get into a long discussion on this, but here are some comments on Sirrahbeds' questions:

Are you joking??
Does the tone of my post suggest that I was joking? Sorry if it appeared so.
No, I'm deadly serious.

I never said our country was brutally attached by *Iraq*. And as far as that last statement - if *Saddam* is not a terrorist, then what is he? We went in to attack anyone who supports, houses and furthers the causes or terrorists. So, are you also saying Iraq was terrorist free until we gave them some golden opportunity?? What the heck are you talking about???
No you didn't say your country was attacked by Iraq, but it seemed to be implied in your statement. Perhaps I should have said "It would also be untrue to say we are not fighting Iraq" … Saddam wasn't a terrorist in the Al Quaida manner, he was a brutal, ruthless dictator.

As promoted by the media. What did he do - finance and plan 9/11 so he could start a war?
There's no need for me to answer to that. Of course he didn't. If you can't understand what I'm trying to say, there's no point discussing it. We'll just have to wait for history to tell us the true story. What I meant was, that no matter what you or I believe, that is the situation as seen by an awful lot of people outside America. We mustn't forget that, no matter how big or powerful America is, they are only about 4% of the worlds' population.

would you explain one's logic in coming to such a conclusion? I am fascinated.
What I am implying here is that there have been so many lies and half truths spouted around by the administration that one can easily begin to speculate on all sorts of fantastic and ridiculous theories. I'm not what you would call a "conspiracy theorist", but there are just too many unanswered questions and doubtful decisions.

Court martials have already been carried out and they will continue. Hardly a reprimand. Military court martials are not going to be carried on Court TV but they are not pleasant or gentle.
Court martials are fine, and absolutely the minimum to be expected, but who will be chosen? Who is really responsible? Haven't the officers, politicians and military leaders got a responsibility too? Are we going to see them explain themselves in a court room? Or will it be just the common soldier taking the buck? Surely this behavior must have been condoned by their superiors. How far up the chain of command does this really go?

That is why I cannot understand why the peace loving Muslims are not speaking up and screaming with outrage over the Berg murder. Is he just another dead American and so does not matter? My ears are straining with hope to hear this!!
I agree, peace loving Muslims are not speaking up as they should. But at least some of their governments are beginning to make their voices heard at last. What a tragedy that it had to come to this first.

Dumped on by the media YES, but not let down by their leaders!! Even this horrible beheading is not going to cause our leadership to back down. America will not be bullied. How do you figure that they have been let down??
I figure that they have been let down by being sent out to war without the necessary preparation or understanding of the task, and with no plans (or at least very naive plans) for the rebuilding of Iraq afterwards.

… and there were a couple of other remarks that I unfortunately found slightly offensive, perhaps it's the tone of them, perhaps it's just me:

The same people who did 9/11 just beheaded a man in Iraq!! No connection???
As I said, you have been mislead (by politicians) to believe that there was a connection between 9/11 and Iraq. I doubt very much that the animals that did this dreadful, inexcusable deed (the beheading), were in Iraq when war was declared.

but we made a mistake with the prisoner abuse - it is STILL a major media event because of POLITICIANS and THAT is who I blame for the disintegration of our war efforts!!
I don't quite understand that. Surely you can't believe that the media are to blame for the "mistake", and as far as politicians go, I think George Bush is one, though as such I don't have much respect for him (or many others for that matter).

… and your comment to Sara (Edwinas Secretary):
As far as saying President Bush would find a war to fight? Did he stage 9/11? YOU sound like a victim of the liberal press. Young people are giving their lives for YOU and I right now - and for our freedom to say the things we are saying.
I don't think that Sara seems like a "victim" of anything. I found the comment rather condescending and pretentious. The war that George Bush is fighting had nothing to do with 9/11 when it started.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Thank you John. You're right. Victim is not a word that describes me. Interesting to note...there is much evidence that the invasion of Iraq was planned BEFORE 9/11.

[jonza]

I didn't want to get hooked on this, I really ought to stop now and I definitely don't want to get into a slanging match, but I think the following article is relevant here:

Abuse of Iraqis 'well thought through'

NewScientist.com news service 16.58 10 May 04

The type of mistreatment Iraqi prisoners have suffered at the hands of US soldiers is unlikely to have occurred without the knowledge of higher authorities, say psychologists by contacted by New Scientist - adding support to allegations that the abuse may have been condoned by superiors.

The revelation that Iraqi prisoners were being degraded by their US captors at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad sparked worldwide disgust after graphic photos emerged in the media at the end of April. The images, which show naked male prisoners being humiliated, date back to 2003.

"A lot of people had to be in the know for this to happen. The very fact people felt confident enough to take pictures suggests that this was not something which was a secret," says Ian Robbins, a consultant clinical psychologist at the traumatic stress service at St George's Hospital in London, UK, who has treated both victims of torture and torturers.

In fact, both the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) and Amnesty International raised the alleged abuse of prisoners with US authorities many months ago. The ICRC's findings from visits to 14 Iraqi detention centres between March and October 2003 prompted "repeated requests to the coalition authorities that they take corrective action".

A leaked ICRC report reveals how an intelligence officer in charge at Abu Ghraib had told the Red Cross when asked about captives being imprisoned in darkness for days that it was "part of the process".

"The US administration has shown a consistent disregard for the Geneva Conventions and basic principles of law, human rights and decency," says Irene Khan, Amnesty International's secretary general. "This has created a climate in which US soldiers feel they can dehumanise and degrade prisoners with impunity."

Rules and regulations
"In all organisations, all teams, troops and people will replicate in some way the personality of the number one person in charge - whether it's the President, down to the general, down to the head of the jail," says Simon Meyerson, director of the Institute of Psychology in London. "If you know there's going to be trouble, you won't do it."

Stansfield Turner, former head of the US Central Intelligence Agency, says the abuse "indicates the Bush administration's indifference to laws and rules and regulations".

"If it was just the actions of a few aberrant people, they would either have to believe their superiors condoned what they did, or that they could get away with it because of lack of adequate supervision," he told the BBC.

He says the blame must be placed high. "In this case I think at least a three or four star general should be fired - and fired immediately."

Hooded and cuffed
Sabrina Harman, a reservist implicated in abusing prisoners, has defended her actions in emails to the Washington Post saying she was acting on orders. She was photographed grinning next to a pile of naked, bound prisoners.

"They would bring in one to several prisoners at a time already hooded and cuffed. The job of the MP [military police] was to keep them awake, make it hell so they would talk," she wrote.

Robbins told New Scientist: "It looks to me that it was a well thought through process." He says acts of ill-treatment by rogue operatives acting alone are more likely to be routine low-grade violence - "the odd slapping" - and neglect, such as withholding food or access to toilets.

He also points out that the methods of humiliation depicted in the images would be particularly offensive to Arab men. "If you really wanted to humiliate an Arab man, you would strip him, have a woman present, and then have a woman degrade him."

One recent image shows a woman holding a dog lead attached to the neck of a naked Iraqi man. Photographing such events is likely to compound the shame by placing it on record.

Robbins believes the abuses revealed so far could have been stopped "extremely easily" by senior officers.

Shaoni Bhattacharya

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by 2kitties
I won't post about my thoughts right now because it's safe to say they'd get me kicked off pet talk and probably made a military prisoner myself. I will say that there is no punishment enough for the people wearing the masks in the video.

Don't worry, Pet Talk Prison ain't a bad place....

They have doggies and kitties there!!!:D

There is a reason that those punks hid their faces...One, to make believe that alwarahiribeennicetoknowyou joker was the one that
hacked off Berg's head. Two, knowing the the US will find them if they were 'brave' enough to show their faces-I wonder what the Islamic faction would do to them if they found out what they were doing to their religion.

Taking some American off the streets of Iraq is really brave....The poor dude wasn't even a soldier.

2K,
I admire you, you are far braver than I. I have seen some gruesome stuff, gunshot wounds, broken people, the Faces of Death movies that were popular once upon a time....

Logan,

Don't bother.
Unless you feel like burdening your heart and clouding your head with pure evil. I would really like to know who, that has posted, on the thread has heard or seen the tape....

Listening was bad enough, I can image the picture we just as bad.

ES,

Did you see Nova last night....lololol,

Yep that invasion was planned....the war games that the US engaged in (2002) were targeted against a Mid East country.............Israel.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,778139,00.html

Iraq and Israel both start with the letter "I",
I can see the parallels.

The retired American general, playing Israel, that ran the exercise KICKED the AMFOR's rear end...

And finally,


The Iraqi soccer team qualified for the Olympics..

Totally cool.:D


Jonza,

What happened? Is it still going on or are we rehashing history???

I love it when people twist the knife.
It really doesn't hurt as much as the initial
thrust.

[jonza]

Originally posted by RICHARD
What happened? Is it still going on or are we rehashing history???

I love it when people twist the knife.
It really doesn't hurt as much as the initial
thrust.
Yes, I suppose we are rehashing history in a way. "My country" (England) was pretty good at this sort of thing when they still had an Empire. It's all their fault really, they are the ones who created Iraq and Palestine without regard for the people and their culture.
Just read stories like the history of General Gordon in the Sudan in 1884. There are some interesting parallels.

And I'm not trying to twist any knives, I'm just fumbling about trying to find some truth and logic in this awful mess.

[2kitties]

can I ask a question that may seem related but is meant to be ENTIRELY UNRELATED to the comments in this thread?

I'll try.

What are interrogators allowed to do to prisoners during questioning? I mean, if Osama is arrested and he's asked questions then he says "no comment"- what are the interrogators then "supposed" to do?

no irony intended in my question. just a pure question.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by jonza


And I'm not trying to twist any knives, I'm just fumbling about trying to find some truth and logic in this awful mess.

You'll never find truth and logic there.....

I am not saying 'they' messed up, WE messed up.

I think, as an American, I can take just as much blame for what happened in that prison. It was not my hand, but it was done by the hands we sent to represent us.

Guilty by association.

We hang all our dirty laundry on the line for everyone to see. It's all there.

If you want to see some brutal torture pics check out the "Rape of Nanking" In that tome there is a pic of some soldiers standing next to a woman with a bayonet between her legs.

We didn't invent torture, beheadings or anything like that....The reason this story broke is we have the same technology that everyone uses across the world that was able to get the 'word' out about what we did.... and you'll hear about what we do ABOUT IT thru the same medium.

There is no sanity, truth or logic in what happened. Ordinary Americans, ashamed of the actions of a few, will accept it, try to fix it and move on. While it may not be the answer that the world is looking for, it's the best we can do with our system, and imperfect as it is.

If we don't learn from our mistakes here,
then we deserve the mistrust of the world.

We aren't the first to screw up in front of the world, and we won't be the last.

What happened in those walls of that prison is not
typically American, that much I know.

But, I have yet to see a perfect government on the planet.....

I think we can take our place amongst the not-so-perfect countries.

We have forgotten and forgiven, I don't see why we aren't afforded the same privilege.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by 2kitties
can I ask a question that may seem related but is meant to be ENTIRELY UNRELATED to the comments in this thread?

I'll try.

What are interrogators allowed to do to prisoners during questioning? I mean, if Osama is arrested and he's asked questions then he says "no comment"- what are the interrogators then "supposed" to do?

no irony intended in my question. just a pure question.

Well,

It depends on the prisoner, his classification (why he was captured) and what they want out of him. A high profile prisoner like Saddam will be treated like this...

They'll deprive him of sleep, keep him in a room with the lights on so he loses track of time, make noises when he tries to nod off, wake him up at strange times, play loud music (preferably some American Idol singers, Sorry, I can't help myself) They'll try the good cop, bad cop trick---

Keep him sitting up in a chair for hours, standing up.....Mostly mind eff tricks.

One thing about physical torture is this-

The more you hit anyone the more apt you will be to get anything you want to hear. Anything to stop the pain.....

Forget about 'truth serum' it don't work.....

[RICHARD]

A SOLUTION....
--------------------------

Volunteer bottoms wanted

A US engineering firm wants volunteers to test out a butt-kicking machine

The Idaho Statesman says Leavitt & Associates needs some firm bottoms for research on its 'manually self-operated butt-kicking machine'.

The firm normally designs industrial plants, bridges and commercial buildings, but the butt-kicking idea grew rapidly after it was first suggested at a meeting.

"We were in a meeting and someone said we needed a device that would let a client kick our butts," company head J Reese Leavitt said.

"Groups can use this to put someone dressed up like, say, Osama bin Laden, and charge $1 to kick his butt," office manager Sandy Burmeister said.
------------------------

Let's put one of these in every country......

Problems solved.

[RICHARD]

Since we are hanging out dirty laundry...

http://www.nypost.com/news/nationalnews/20802.htm


Sheesh,

If I was Ms England I'd find the deepest place on the planet
to hide.

[lizbud]

I think the editorial in our local newspaper today sums up
my feelings about how I feel about this whole dirty mess. I
couldn't have said it better myself.



today's editorial
America mustn't hide from shame


May 13, 2004


Our position is: The United States must admit to the world mistakes made in Abu Ghraib prison.

We have as a nation been seared by the shocking, graphic images that continue to emanate from Iraq.

In a video released Tuesday by a terrorist group associated with al-Qaida, five hooded men use a knife to behead American Nick Berg. One of the killers later holds up the head for the camera.

Before the video of Berg's murder was posted on the Internet, Americans were reacting in shame and disgust to the release of more photos from Abu Ghraib prison. In one image, guard dogs terrorize a nude Iraqi prisoner. In another, four nude men are bound together and stacked on top of one another on the prison floor. Three American guards stand beside the pile of flesh.

We have reached a critical moment as a nation. Berg's murder reminds us of why we must continue to aggressively pursue terrorists in Iraq and elsewhere. They are ruthless killers bound by no code of moral behavior, and they will strike again and again if not stopped.

Yet, the shame of Abu Ghraib is a reminder as well. Like all nations, the United States has in positions of power good people who make tragic mistakes and sadists who enjoy the suffering of others. What must guide us -- what must set us apart as a people from the terrorists who murdered Nick Berg -- is the rule of law, a system built upon protecting the rights of the individual.

We also have the promise of an open society, a trust that no matter how painful the truth, the American people can cope with it and learn from it.

To that end, Indiana Rep. Mike Pence, who has been a staunch supporter of the war, called on the Defense Department on Wednesday to release all the photos and video taken at Abu Ghraib. The goal isn't self-flagellation or prurience. It's the hope that the power of evil will be diminished once exposed to the light of a free society.

As a nation, we have made serious mistakes in Iraq. We must admit that to the world, and to ourselves. We should start by showing that, unlike the cowards who murdered Nick Berg, we won't hide from our shame.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
I think the editorial in our local newspaper today sums up
my feelings about how I feel about this whole dirty mess. I
couldn't have said it better myself.





I might have alluded to the same things myself....
I just don't bother to use 'Spell check' and 43 cent words...


Here's a question....No farce, funny or being a smart arse.

If you do agree with the editorial, do you think we should chase after terrorists??

And did you see or listen to the Berg murder???

And what did you think about that?


P.S.
And I really want to know what 2kitties has to say
now that a few hours have passed.....

[lizbud]

Originally posted by RICHARD

Here's a question....No farce, funny or being a smart arse.

If you do agree with the editorial, do you think we should chase after terrorists??

And did you see or listen to the Berg murder???

And what did you think about that?




Yes I do agree completely with this opinion. It is, by the way,
an opinion by a totally conservative, Republican based news
source, The Indianapolis Star.

I did view the still photos of the killing of Berg. :( Terrorists
will not win this war for minds. It's in nobody's interest to live
with all that hate.

[2kitties]

Richard, here is what I have to say after sleeping on it.
We admit our mistakes, punish the soldiers, and apologize.

Them we kill the people who murdered Berg slowly and painfully. Then we kill everyone who was happy about it even slower and more painfully. It all sort of gives me a "don't mess with texas" attitude.
I'd love to say I feel peaceloving and introspective about what I saw on the video, but, really it just pisses me off in a huge way and makes me wish we'd just pull out the big guns and salt the earth when we leave.

adding, off the subject:
there are those who say American's should leave. Well, I suppose I really have no problem with that. What say we just leave? What say we leave and just come home? Save the lives of plenty of our men
We close down our bases worldwide. We shut down ALL foreign trade and job outsourcing- who needs a global economy. We shut down ALL military assistance to foreign countries. We shut down ALL our borders and stop students from coming here to study, families from visiting Disney, sick people from coming here for life saving surgeries. We stop ALL our monies and keep them right here. People in Korea want assistance? Screw you. People in Africa wants AIDS medicines? Screw You, get your own scientists to do a half century of expensive research. We'll open up the Alaskan wilderness and find our own oil if we have to. People anywhere want anything? Forgettabout it! It's such a double edged sword. People around the globe just can't decide if they love America or hate us. Probably both. But if we don't send troops, we get railed for not caring (Haiti) if we do, we're tyrants.
No matter what, we are human and will make mistakes when we're out doing things.
What's the best way to avoid mistakes? Just stop trying.

[catcrazylady]

You finally get to a point that you just want to wipe the whole mess off of the map! I know there are many others that share this attitude. It proves my point that if the "Innocent Iraqi" people would stand up and say that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated then I might feel some sympathy for them! The sad thing is the few who have spoken out would never do anything to punish the terrorists! A slap on the wrist and a "don't do that kind of stuff" just doesnt cut it!! PUNISHMENT, PUNISHMENT, PUNISHMENT!!! We will punish the soldiers who "abused" the prisoners. We will stand before the world and apoligize and the world will see the results. We hear a few "shocked and horrified" statements from a few Middle Eastern governments about the beheading but somebody please tell me if we ever SEE anything done about it!!!
I understand that we can't leave, and should not, but there has to come a point where we lump everyone together and go forth. If you don't stand against it then you must be for it and approve of it!
I'm not so stupid as to believe that all of the Iraqi people feel that the tactics of terrorism are ok, but please tell me when there has ever been a time when innocents have not died in war? Can anyone tell me that all those people who died on 9-11 weren't innocent? They didn't even know they were at war!!!
I'm afraid there is going to come a point where we have to make one heck of an impact to get people to really pay attention! When we have murderers in our country we track them down and deal with them. I have no doubt that there are plenty of people in Iraq who know who did this to Berg. If we offer enough bribe money maybe someone will turn one of them in! Maybe!
I know I'm rattling and probably not making sense but my point is this... We should not have to bribe, cajole, or threaten any government to punish ANY horrific crime of terror! It should be automatic! We go into Iraq using precision bombs and doing our darndest to not hurt anyone outside the intended targets. What did that get us, a bunch of Iraqi soldiers holed up in hospitals and schools because they know how humanitarian we are!! They play us as suckers because of our attempts to be upstanding human beings. (as upstanding as you can be in war) Not only do we do all that but then we stay and ship in food, water, medical supplies, and help rebuild the damage from our bombs!!!
Now we have a few stray soldiers who are not following the humanitarian rules we have come to live by. Yet even on their worst day they couldn't begin to hold a candle to most middle east prisons!! Right around the corner we have an American civilian who has no clue about what is going on in that prison, but what the heck, lets cut off his head anyway!! Now people want to blame the "bad Americans" because this wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been so mean to those poor "Innocent Iraqi's" (why are they in prison?).
I'm sick and tired of the bashing!!! You know, we went into Japan with out much concern for who was on the ground and just a few nasty bombs ended the whole thing. People don't seem to get humanity. Why is it that fear and cruelty seem to be the everlasting memory that makes you stop and think before you do it again? How very sad that the world can't appreciate just how hard we have tried to be as compassionate as possible. Whether you think we should be there or not, can't we at least get some respect for something???!!!

[lbaker]

"let's drop the big one, and see what happens. We'll save Australia, wouldn't want to hurt no kangaroos. We'll build an amusement park there. They've got surfing too!"
Randy Newman

They're rioting in Africa
There's strife in Iran
What nature doesn't do to us
Will be done by our fellow man
Kingston Trio

Are we there yet?
Are we there yet?
Bart Simpson

[Pam]

You know I haven't heard this mentioned in the news, although I am sure I am not the only one who has picked up on it, but Daniel Pearl and Nick Berg were both Jews. Somehow I don't think these were random acts against Americans but, more specifically, with their Jewish ancestry.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
Yes I do agree completely with this opinion. It is, by the way,
an opinion by a totally conservative, Republican based news
source, The Indianapolis Star.

I did view the still photos of the killing of Berg. :( Terrorists
will not win this war for minds. It's in nobody's interest to live
with all that hate.


One thing.

Why does there always have to be a conservative/republican/liberal disclaimer
about where the article comes from? Doesn't that smack of editors steering the news???

I try to read as many articles as I can and don't bother with what the politcal leanings of a fish wrap are....I try to steer around articles from
"Conservative Liberally Republican" newspapers.

Whena paper claims to be one thing or the other they automatically disqualify themselves by aligning themselves with a side, How are we to know that they are reporting the facts?

Still photos are cool but you should really check the audio, I think you'll be mildly bothered.


CCL,

good points.

Laurie,

Just found the "I love L.A." 45 for my nephew....
Newman is appropriate......


2K,

You know, I gravitate toward your way of solving some of the problems-slow and as painfully as possible.....



Are you sure your "don't mess with Texas" statement has to do with the Lakers beating San Antonio last night?;)

[lbaker]

Richard, they still make 45's?? Do kids these days even HAVE record players?

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lbaker
Richard, they still make 45's?? Do kids these days even HAVE record players?

I don't know....It was one I bought years ago.
My nephew likes Jazz and vinyl....there are still some places that still sell LPs!

[DJFyrewolf36]

Richard....

Why do I find myself agreeing with you?

Uh oh....my brain is melding with California again...

Just kidding, we Nevadans LOVE you guys! But I digress....

Urg, I don't see what the truely RIGHT choice is here. We leave, somebody will complain. We stay, people will *obviously* complain. We close our borders, complaints. We keep em open, complaints. You can't please EVERYONE all the time...lately you can't please ANYONE any of the time.

I say we bring back "World wide chill out day" Bring your prozac *or whatever* Bring a beer, sit back and watch wrestling on TV. Oh, and bring Bon Bons too :) Much better than starting some silly war...

[Edwina's Secretary]

Much better than starting some silly war...

Too late!!!!

[lizbud]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Too late!!!!


Sounds like DJFyrewolf36 should have been one of Bush's cabinet members. :p


OOPS, forgot there for a minute. Bush made this decision on
his own. He followed his "gut"..... :rolleyes:

[RICHARD]

DJ,

of course you Nevadans agree with us Cah lee fuh nee ans....

We are going to have the next NBA champs......Plus the weather is good out here, we have real beaches, outrageous gas prices,
and our governor used to be a movie star....


As far as taking a job in some cabinet, wait for an opening,
Don't have a position made up for you.:)

[Soledad]

Yikes, this thing only keeps snowballing.


Rumsfeld okay'ed harsh interrogation tactics (http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0514/dailyUpdate051604.html)

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
Yikes, this thing only keeps snowballing.


Rumsfeld okay'ed harsh interrogation tactics (http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0514/dailyUpdate051604.html)


lolol,

Did al queda get a tape with Don Rumsfeldt in a hood, do a voice analysis and figure out that it's him on the tape??

You know, I am getting a little suspicious of these stories.....I need video tape or pics;)

[DJFyrewolf36]

I wonder what would happen if the whole planet decided not to give a rats patoookus.....

One of my favorite quotes *on a card for Magic: The Gathering (its a card game)*
"Without warriors, there can be no war"

Theres a thought

Oh, and Id take a cabinet posistion...secritary of chill ;) is that available?

[Edwina's Secretary]

He followed his "gut".....

Doesn't he hear voices that tell him what to do? Good plot for a movie maybe....bad basis for starting wars.

What do we usually do with people who hear God telling them to kill other people?????

[RICHARD]

Bush followed his guts
Clinton followed his.......


Fergit it.;)




http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4997808/?GT1=3391

Love means never having to sarin your sorry.

[DJFyrewolf36]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Doesn't he hear voices that tell him what to do? Good plot for a movie maybe....bad basis for starting wars.

What do we usually do with people who hear God telling them to kill other people?????


Hrm Joan of Arc heard voices and the Catholics lit her on fire...

Most people that hear voices generally end up in the state mental hospital...

Why do we have this guy as a president again? Help me out here...

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary


What do we usually do with people who hear God telling them to kill other people?????

We watch the video in horror and vow to track down the people that killed Nic Berg.

[leslie flenner]

if I understand this as to be what you are saying then should i assume he is referring to the voice of God as he is Evangalist and that religion believes all non-Evangalist's will perish at the end of the earth and be left on earth to wander in torment as they burn, while they (Evangalists) go to heaven?
Or are these voices left over from his coke using days? Clear me up on this!!! Bush hears voices?

[leslie flenner]

I re-read posts and now understand that bush hears voices from God and so this is his Evangalism working here. Sorry for not seeing that- as soon as i saw "voices", I was blinded! (I work with mentally ill so was immediatly alarmed!)

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by leslie flenner

Or are these voices left over from his coke using days? Clear me up on this!!! Bush hears voices?

Diet coke leave you seeing things.....it's a no win situation.....:confused:

Who knows what GWB thinks! When I talk to Laura this weekend I'll ask her.;)

[gini]

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Prisoner-Abuse-My-Lai.html

I just read this article online - New York Times - I thought I should share the article.

We HAVE forgotten, haven't we?

[Logan]

The link doesn't work, Gini.

[gini]

Logan, I am sorry........not sure what the problem is because I was able to access it by clicking on my link above.

Try again - or maybe go directly to NYTimes.com and look for the article. It is in today's paper.

[Logan]

It wants me to sign in or register. Is it worth it, Gini, knowing that I am a staunch Republican???? Ha Ha!!!! :p

[gini]

Logan, I forwarded the page to you.............you decide:D

[Logan]

I got it. Since my mind is so feeble, Gini, I need to go back read why you posted this particular article, which I found to be very interesting. :o

[Lady's Human]

The pilot in the article is used as a reference to character in the newest version of the army leadership manual, which every leader, from buck Sgt on up, is required to read. What the article doesn't tell is that the Americal Div G-3, who is the operations officer (the person who issues operational orders to units) was Colin Powell. While powell was in no way shape or form responsible for the My Lai massacre itself, he did assist in the attempted coverup of the incident.

[lizbud]

The NYT article was very interesting. I read another today that
I found more interesting as it reminds us all of the long history
of Government's attempts at" Empire" building & it's consequences.


Splendid Little War; Long Bloody Occupation
Iraq, the US and an Old Lesson
By WILLIAM LOREN KATZ

Weapons of mass distruction, a slam-dunk war followed by a no-end-in-sight occupation? We've been here before when a century ago the U.S. first sent an army overseas to accomplish regime change and liberate a resource-rich land from tyranny.

It began in February, 1898 when an explosion sunk the U.S. battleship Maine in Havana harbor. Since Cubans lived under a cruel Spanish colonialism, a pro-war U.S. press felt free to claim that Spain unleashed a weapon of mass destruction, and to whip up "Remember the Maine" fever. No weapon was ever found -- it was a boiler explosion that sank the Maine -- and though Spain agreed to President McKinley's main demands, Congress declared war with a promise to free Cuba.

Secretary of State John Hay called it "a splendid little war" because in less than a hundred days the U.S. liberated 13 million people and 165,000 square miles of colonies from Puerto Rico to Guam and the Philippines, and with only 379 combat deaths. But disease and embalmed meat war profiteers sold to the Army killed another 5,462 U.S. soldiers.

Leading the hawks in 1898 was a young, flamboyant Teddy Roosevelt, an assistant secretary of the Navy who claimed war stimulated "spiritual renewal," and the "clear instinct for racial selfishness." Not a man to hide in the National Guard, TR personally led his "Rough Riders" at San Juan Hill, and returned from Cuba with one regret -- "there was not enough war to go around." No w he was riding to the White House.

For two years General Emilio Aguinaldo and his freedom-fighting guerilla army had fought Spain's cruel occupation fully ready to govern a free Philippines. But before he left for Cuba, TR sent Admiral George Dewey's U.S. fleet to Manila Bay where it sank the Spanish fleet. Dewey assured Aguinaldo the U.S. "had come to . . . free the Filipinos from the yoke of Spain." But U.S. troops landed on Luzon, prevented Aguinaldo from entering Manila, and Washington appointed a puppet government.

Filipinos first welcomed Americans as liberators. But in June when Aguinaldo issued a declaration of independence, the pro-war U.S. press began to demonize Aguinaldo, and a U.S. general told Congress that Filipinos who wanted freedom had "no more idea of its meaning than a shepherd dog."

President McKinley said he spent many sleepless nights agonizing about the Philippines until God told him to keep the islands and "uplift and civilize and Christianize them." The President called his program "benevolent assimilation." The influential San Franciso Argonaut was more candid: "We do not want the Filipinos. We want the Philippines. The islands are enormously rich, but unfortunately, they are infested with Filipinos."

A U.S. army of 70,000 [including 6,000 Black troops] was sent to pacify the islands and, as more than one white soldier said, "just itching to get at the niggers." General William Shafter told a journalist it might be necessary to kill half the population to bring "perfect justice" to the other half. After General Jack Smith promised to turn the Philippines into a "howling wilderness" most casualties were civilians. Smith defined the foe as any male or female "ten years and up," and told his soldiers: "I want no prisoners. I wish you to kill and burn; the more you kill and burn the better it will please me."

U.S. officers encouraged the use of torture, murder of prisoners, and massacre of villagers, including women and children. A Kansas soldier wrote "The country won't be pacified until the niggers are killed off like the Indians." Another white soldier reported brutal "sights you could hardly believe" and he reached this conclusion: "A white man seems to forget that he is human."

The U.S. had entered a quagmire. "The Filipino masses are loyal to Aguinaldo and the government he leads," conceeded U.S. General Arthur MacArthur. He thought the foe "needed bayonet treatment for at least a decade." His time assessment proved prophetic. In early 1901 a U.S. journalist concluded "that the Filipino hates U.S. . . permanent guerrilla warfare will continue for years." He reported endless guerilla attacks that took one or two U.S. lives at a time and created a "spirit of bitterness in the rank and file of the army." A U.S. Red Cross worker reported "American soldiers are determined to kill every Filipino in sight" and said he saw "horribly mutilated Filipino bodies."

In March, 1901 U.S. officers saw victory when Aguinaldo was captured, agreed to swear allegiance to the United States, and to persuade his officers to accept amnesty. But quagmires can sink fond hopes. Six months later guerillas on Samar attacked a U.S. garrison and massacred 45 U.S. officers and enlisted men with bolos and bare hands. The occupation's most shocking defeat exposed U.S. propaganda about a defeated foe and a easy occupation. The U.S. media comp ared Samar to General Custer at the Little Big Horn, pro-imperialist editors talked about being "hoodwinked," and The San Francisco Call reminded Americans "a conquered people" do not remain conquered for long. "It is utterly foolish to pretend . . . the end is in sight," admitted General Adna Chaffee.

By 1902 U.S. Senate hearings and scores of Army court martial trials found that U.S. occupying forces were guilty of "war crimes." General Robert Hughes admitted he ordered the burning of villages and murder of women and children. When asked by a Senator if this was "civilized warfare," he answered, "these people are not civilized." The Baltimore American wondered why the U.S. carried out "we went to war to banish."

President Teddy Roosevelt followed McKinley to the White House and continued to justify the occupation, dismiss Filipinos as "Chinese half-breeds," and to insist this was "the most glorious war in our nation's history." Congress spent $170 million on its occupation.

Mark Twain, two former presidents and other prominent citizens formed an Anti-Imperialist League that had tens of thousands attending protest meetings and signing petitions that denounced U.S. atrocities and imperial designs. One prominent African American bravely declared:"We shall neither fight for such a country or with such an army" and many others spoke out as well. The African American press stood united against a U.S. government that exported its racist "deviltry" overseas, and some labor unions began to connect the dots betw een overseas imperialism and government suppression of strikes at home. 2,800 military actions continued until 1911, took 200,000 Filipino lives, and the U.S. suffered 4,234 combat deaths. More than a dozen US servicemen defected to Aguinaldo, and half of these were African Americans although soliders of color comprised less than ten percent of the US army of occupation.

Filipino independence came in 1945 but bitterness continued with Washington support for brutal dictators such as Ferdinand Marcos who looted his country for twenty years. Vice President George Walker Bush arrived in Manila to praise Marcos' "adherence to democratic principles" and the next year a massive, nonviolent uprising forced Marcos to flee.

On October 18, 2003 President George W. Bush came to Manila to promote his war on terrorism. For the Philippine Congress, he rewrote history when he said: "Together our soldiers liberated the Philippines."

Our first overseas venture a hundred years ago offers insights into our occupation of Iraq. People always prefer self rule to a foreign master. Resisting self-determination was unpleasant long ago, and it has not and will not be pleasant now. Presidential lies come around to bite again.

[RICHARD]

What a jaded, inflammatory article.

The cause of the Maine's sinking wasn't officially
known until the late 20th century-it wasn't a boiler explosion, it was a powder magazine explosion, caused by the heat of a boiler.

While the article is mostly correct, one hundred years of retrospect, history and interpretation really make me wonder where our 'Empire Building'
skill went wrong. We bought Alaska, fell upon the Hawaiian Islands and the VI, Puerto Rico and all the smaller islands of the Carribean remain Commonwealth states, I remember the statehood votes soundly beaten by people of those areas....they wanted to remain independent.

Damn, we should have sent troops down there to get them in line and make them join us-like it or not.

The separation of the 6,000 black troops from the total and the quote of the desire to "kill n------" shows that the author not only wants to inflame feelings, but play the race card and does, several more times in this 'article'.

America was 34 years removed from the Civil War and just a few years from WWI.

lololol,

Our first overseas venture 100 years ago may have been our worst-but this moron and his statements claiming we are an occupation force make me laugh.


The people of Iraq are people who cannot and will not be ruled, by themselves or others. They are used to having edicts and laws pressed upon them. They have lived in fear and never had a voice in HOW they live their live...

Years of not having a choice has killed their spirit of humanity, freedom and peace....They can't grasp democracy because they never have had the taste of freedom and thinking for themselves.
They tolerate beheadings, bombings and terrorists because they haven't learned the old saying-

I'd rather die on my feet than live on my knees.

-Tthe saddest part is that they are forced into that kneeling position by their own brothers.

What is Katz' point?

105 years of presidential lying?

Yeah, the Iraqi 'invasion' shows we are alot smarter than we were 105 years ago......


We aren't killing our own soldiers with canned meat.....We kill them by ignoring the basic needs as to the kind of equipment they need and doubt them in every single battle they fight in.

And when they screw up we'll tie their hands behind their backs and let them try and do their jobs.

Fiction is always a good read when it's tempered with a little fact.......And since we have no sex in the S.A. war, let's stir up some racist views from the 19th century..

If a white man seems to forget he's human-

A writer can easily remind him of his sins, the past and how much progress he has made.
h

[Edwina's Secretary]

Yes, sometimes history is inflammatory....but those who are allowed to forget history are forced to relive it....

Interesting to note...McKinley was another president to whom God spoke about killing..... I read about that in a book, copyright 1980 that I borrowed from my parents this weekend.

Another interesting passage from this book..."William Randolph Hearst was looking for a way to boost sales of his newspaper when he discovered Cuba. A war in Cuba would excite the public and would, in turn, create a great demand for newspapers. Late editions...extras...irresistable headlines. So Hearst sent the great Western painter, Frederic Remington to Cuba to get pictures of a "gallant revolution." Remington went but found there was no revolution. "Everything is quiet," he wired. "There is no trouble here. There will be no war. I wish to return." "Please remain," Hearst cabled back. "You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war."

There are three paragraphs in this that could be called "editorial", the rest are well documented facts.

To call someone a "moron" because you disagree with him??? Or you don't like the facts he relates????

And I'm curious...Richard, you seem to profess an intimate knowledge of the Iraqi people...who and what they are. Spend alot of time there? Known many Iraqis?

Just curious.....

[RICHARD]

first of all...

Since Senor Katz cant sink the Maine correctly, I take issue with his qualifications and ability to research the facts.

Those who can't get history right are doomed to twist it any way they see fit.

I am sure that Katz spoke with some of the vets from the war, and possibly some of the Phillipinos who were fighting the war.

I just have a problem with the way the race card is played every time we need a historical flogging.......To quote stuff like that sure
is a wonderful way to provide us with the facts...and remind of of our sins.......

Read "brothers in arms" by Kareem Abdul Jabbar.......Yep, THAT Karrerm Abdul Jabbar.... and when you get tired of that read
'Soul Patrol' and glance at the Tuskeegee Airmen story
and then take a gander at the story where the United states infected the Blacks with all kinds of funky illnesses.

BTW,

The first three books are stories of Blacks who fought during our wars.,


Did I say I was an expert about Middle East history???

Nope........It don't take no roads skolar to figure that one out.

I merely objected to his bone headed use of racism...


Do I know many Iraqis?

Before or now?

Do I know many Phillipinos?

Before or now?

I grew up and worked with many, I have entered their homes and broke bread with them...you see, I work in the medical field and have spent many hours with those people.....when you can talk to people, argue and like them after it really doesn't matter where you are from, we all talk the same language....

I love couscous and hummus, it's got to be spicy hot tho....


and there ain't nothing like sharing hot pig off a spit with a Phillipino friend..........I'm just amazed that they aren't fat, like me!

[lizbud]

" Did I say I was an expert about Middle East history???

Nope........It don't take no roads skolar to figure that one out.

I merely objected to his bone headed use of racism..."


Tsk, tsk, talk about Racism........


"The people of Iraq are people who cannot and will not be ruled, by themselves or others. They are used to having edicts and laws pressed upon them. They have lived in fear and never had a voice in HOW they live their live...

Years of not having a choice has killed their spirit of humanity, freedom and peace....They can't grasp democracy because they never have had the taste of freedom and thinking for themselves.
"

Now, that's a Racist statement if I've ever heard one.

[Ally Cat's Mommy]

Originally posted by RICHARD

We just have to invent a Nudie Bomb, drop it over the Middle East and while everyone scrambles to find clothes...............



Richard - can you let me know when this will happen so I can make sure I am on vacation - NO-ONE deserves to see my naked butt!!! j/k BUT what I would like to say is the following:

I have lived and worked amongst Muslims for 4 years. People ask me "what they are like?" I reply:

I look around the office and I see a PERSON, working for a living, paying off a house and a couple of cars, trying to save for a family holiday and hoping that one day his kids will get into a good university. I go to the shops and look around me and I see women who are tired of listening to kids whining, trying to pick up some groceries and get home to cook dinner for their family" - NOT any different from you and I???? I can relate to how Muslims feel when people assume that every Muslim is a terrosist - it's the same way I feel when people assume that because I am a "white" South African I am a racist - it's simply not true!!!

What I will concede however is that we are living in very volatile times, and incidents such as the recent prisoner abuse DO anger the average Bahraini - it has made it EXTREMELY uncomfortable for expats living in the Middle East (I KNOW that we are here by choice, but the reality is that in a Post-apartheid South Africa there are no career prospects for my husband, so we go where the jobs are!).

Yesterday I stopped at a traffic signal and a school bus full of local kids pulled up next to my car. They started pelting my car with rubbish - pepsi cans, juice cartons etc - NOTHING DANGEROUS, just upsetting, and the traffic cop on duty at the intersection just stood and watched.

Last week I walked out of class and have now refuse to continue teaching a student who said to me that "Berg deserved to be beheaded"- I am not talking about an uneducated man - this guy is a government employee with two degrees under his belt, who has studied overseas. As far as I am concerned I am there to help him improve his English - not talk politics!

The other thing I am waiting to see is how the people of Iraq cope with democracy. Bahrain became a democracy a few years ago, and we are experiencing a HUGE surge in crime. It used to be petty theft etc, now it is burglaries, car thefts, riots, brutal assaults and even some rapes. (A Bahraini guy was recently given a 1 YEAR jail sentence for raping a 14 year old, whilst an Indian Labourer was jailed for 1 year for stealing a mobile phone) The justice system is NOT designed to cope with people "finding their way" around this new-found freedom, and they are taking too long to amend laws and impose stricter sentences on law-breakers. My husband works in Saudi, and if you are so-inclined, you can go on a Friday afternoon to watch an execution, or hand amputation - I'm NOT saying it's right - but BOY does it send out a strong message to other would-be criminals!!!

Being here gives me a very interesting perspective on events - reading about something in local media, and US or UK publications, you would almost think it was two separate incidents!

I tend to stay of of the politics of the situation and just try to get on with my life, but it's not always easy.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud


Tsk, tsk, talk about Racism........


"The people of Iraq are people who cannot and will not be ruled, by themselves or others. They are used to having edicts and laws pressed upon them. They have lived in fear and never had a voice in HOW they live their live...

Years of not having a choice has killed their spirit of humanity, freedom and peace....They can't grasp democracy because they never have had the taste of freedom and thinking for themselves.
"

Now, that's a Racist statement if I've ever heard one.

Ally Cat,
Believe it or not, I started writing the bus analogy before I got thru your post.....something about being called a racist piques my bad nature...I apologize it it brings back any bad feelings.
-----------------
Well,

I'll just have to admit to being a racist and a realist.

Saddam drove the bus.

Saddam was kicked off the bus.

The bus will not move until the two other people on the bus decide who is driving.

No one knows how to drive, no one know the rules of the road.

The Kurds aren't allowed on the bus.

We aren't going to drive the bus because isn't not
our bus.

The rest of the people are getting anxious because they are used to the driver, who took them and picked them up where HE wanted them to go.

It's frustrating to the people because they didn't not care, as long as the bus was moving.

And while we are trying to keep the 'bus' in an uneasy peace we are the targets of the people that
are trying to disrupt the bus service and the people who are waiting for the bus.


Where is Rosa Parks when you need her??

She'd punch my racist arse out.
---------------------------------

You may as well call me a misogynist, a racist and prejudiced.

I really do dislike some people. I won't lie to you.....and the reason I dislike them is because they are dumb.

I love Racism! I watch NASCAR when I can. My favorite driver is Mark Martin.



I still an offering you an apology and a car wash.
I'll double that offer if you can prove-

My statements were racist.

I am a racist.

And a special bonus challenge!!!

You can find one other racist post I have made.
----------------
I deliberately passed on the biting sarcasm I usually reserve for things that infuriate me.

I've been called worse than a racist-

I'm not really good at race cards. I prefer chess or checkers, but I'll play cards with you.....


As long as you don't cheat.

-------------------


Damn,

I can't help it.....:rolleyes:

If, by some miracle, you can't prove I am a racist, you don't have to apologize. I do understand that name calling comes after you can't think of anything else to yell at people.

It's frustrating not to have a good comeback.
:p

[Ally Cat's Mommy]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RICHARD
I apologize it it brings back any bad feelings.

Not at all - I can debate the issues with the rest of us - I just don't appreciate being pre-judged based on colour and/or nationality (NOT that it has happened here!!!!!)

"The people of Iraq are people who cannot and will not be ruled, by themselves or others. They are used to having edicts and laws pressed upon them. They have lived in fear and never had a voice in HOW they live their live...

Years of not having a choice has killed their spirit of humanity, freedom and peace....They can't grasp democracy because they never have had the taste of freedom and thinking for themselves.
"

It's a touchy subject. I didn't find the remarks "racist" - What I can say (from a Middle East perspective) is:

Since democracy came into being in Bahrain there is an undercurrent of lawlessness and a lack of respect towards authority which is getting much worse. The law enforcement has NOT been brought up to date to handle the increased and worsening crime which is happening. There have RARELY been riots, bank robberies, armed assaults etc here before - now they are becoming endemic.

Freedom of choice HAS to be tempered with an effective police and justice system, otherwise anarchy results.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Rather than racist I would go with condescending and elitist...;)


The people of Iraq are people who cannot and will not be ruled, by themselves or others.


They can't grasp democracy because they never have had the taste of freedom and thinking for themselves.


If they can't be ruled and can't grasp democracy...tell me again what the US troops are doing there????

BTW...my car is getting very dirty...

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Rather than racist I would go with condescending and elitist...;)

If they can't be ruled and can't grasp democracy...tell me again what the US troops are doing there????


Elitist?
I would never join a group that would have me as a member.


Trying to keep the passengers from killing each other.


:confused:

[lizbud]

Originally posted by RICHARD
Elitist?
I would never join a group that would have me as a member.


Trying to keep the passengers from killing each other.


:confused:


Well hey, you joined PT didn't you? LOL.:D


As to keeping the passengers safe,,,,,,


http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/20/iraq.attack/index.html

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
Well hey, you joined PT didn't you? LOL.:D


As to keeping the passengers safe,,,,,,


http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/20/iraq.attack/index.html


I didn't join, I was catnapped and brainwashed,
I don't have a huge brain, so it was an easy job.


I saw this story and looked into it....The 'party'
was going on at 2:45 in the morning and when I looked at the picture something struck me as strange.....the 'women' in that pic look like men.
I would have liked to havc seen some faces.....idle curiosity......

(why does the CNN news site freeze up my computer?
:mad: )


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5013551/

Here's another perspective....

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1802&ncid=1802&e=4&u=/washpost/20040520/ts_washpost/a40848_2004may19

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=2026&ncid=2026&e=1&u=/latimests/20040520/ts_latimes/40killedinusattackoniraqibordervillage


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=676&ncid=676&e=2&u=/usatoday/20040520/ts_usatoday/iraqissay40killedatwedding



You'll see that in the stories one house was destroyed, in another 100 shells were shot by the helicopter that turns into an AC 130 gunship and where did the jets come from??

And one guy says one house was destroyed, another witness states that 'they attacked until dawn and destroyed ALL the houses'......


And why are the dead taken to the hospital,
but buried near the attack sight?

And why are the dead considered martyrs??? Don't you have to be fighting for something in order to be a martyr?


Too many stories with too many conflicting facts.

I'll wait until the dust clears.

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by RICHARD


I saw this story and looked into it....The 'party'
was going on at 2:45 in the morning and when I looked at the picture something struck me as strange.....the 'women' in that pic look like men.
I would have liked to havc seen some faces.....idle curiosity......



The *women* in what picture? The people in all of the pictures *I* saw WERE men, mourning over the dead bodies of victims. As to having a wedding at 2:45am, that is VERY common in the Eastern part of the world. VERY common. When my cousin in Pakistan got married, they invited everyone at 10pm, and the wedding went on until 3am or so. Its just the way people are there. Go to any one of those countries, and go out in the streets at 2 or 3am. The streets are alive at that time, full of people. Because it is SO hot in those countries during the day, people often shop, celebrate, do things that WE do during the day, late at night. Not odd at all.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by popcornbird
The *women* in what picture? The people in all of the pictures *I* saw WERE men, mourning over the dead bodies of victims. As to having a wedding at 2:45am, that is VERY common in the Eastern part of the world. VERY common. When my cousin in Pakistan got married, they invited everyone at 10pm, and the wedding went on until 3am or so. Its just the way people are there. Go to any one of those countries, and go out in the streets at 2 or 3am. The streets are alive at that time, full of people. Because it is SO hot in those countries during the day, people often shop, celebrate, do things that WE do during the day, late at night. Not odd at all.

Check the pic at the CNN website.

I'll have to remember that when I get married.

Does everyone shoot at airplanes??

[2kitties]

another relatively unrelated question:

Pops, I'd like to ask you this, and I apologize in advance if you feel the question is inappropriate.
But you are the only Muslim person I *know*, so I'm going to ask.
I know for a fact there are some pretty darn stupid and ignorant people in this world. No point in making apologies for them. And I am fairly certain that life for Muslim Americans changed a great deal after September 11. I am wondering if you or anyone you know has delt with racism (racism is probably not the correct term) but I mean any descrimination or hate crimes due to your skin color and religion since 9-11? Would you care to share?

[lizbud]

Richard,

CNN has your number.:p Check out this account of the
attack from BBC.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3732655.stm

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
Richard,

CNN has your number.:p Check out this account of the
attack from BBC.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3732655.stm :confused:


If they really wanted to make a point--

Where are the pics of the hubby and wife?

The town that was leveled?

The tent where the ceremony was being held?

Terrorists always hide amongst the masses so when they
are challenged by a police action, innocent people get killed.

In the past , journalists would take pics of the whole area.

You know, houses, dead live stock and the aftermath.

I have grown immune to seeing scenes of dead people and the survivors, shaking their fists in the air, cursing.

I have grown immune to the scenes of a funeral procession, bodies draped in a flag hoisted aloft by hooded pall bearers, bystanders busting caps from full-on-auto Kalishnikovs....

I don't know why, but the scene reminds me of a disturbed ant hill-it's chaos.

The reason that we never get a good view of what is happening
in Iraq is that both sides print what they feel fit to show.

I just think that printing pictures of dead bodies doesn't do anything for the story. Pictures of dead bodies are just that.....Dead bodies.

No disrespect to the dead meant....
They are dehumanized in death...we have no concept of who they were, where or how they lived. It's just another dead body.

Had someone printed pics say, showing the wedding tent or the homes destroyed, I'd think different......
You sell more papers and get the masses a little more riled up when you print a picture of a puddle of blood amid the flowers and decorations of a wedding. Put a human spin on it....


I have been to a wedding. But not where bullets and bombs come flying thru the walls. I never have scratched out a
grave site in the dirt to bury any of my relatives......I have never shot off any of my guns to celebrate a marriage......

This is a perfect case for the media to show us exactly what happened.....Instead we get the "bubble-headed bleach blonde with a gleam in her eyes" pitching the tease right before the commercial......

"And we'll be back with more on the attack of the wedding celebration in Iraq......."

They show the same pics and you get a different body count, number of missles and number of houses destroyed....

Since I haven't seen any pics (that any credible new organization would run) of anything but dead bodies I don't have any proof
that there was a wedding going on.....or pics of the destroyed town.........Sorry, I am going to have to postpone my outrage on this story.......

I need just a little more info.

---------------------------------------

At times I listen to Rush Limbaugh (lol, it's great comedy).
Yesterday he had a soldier fresh from Iraq on the show..

The soldier made this comment when asked about his fear of being in Iraq. He stated that he was "more afraid watching the news reports on televison" than he was of actually being there.

Sometimes I wonder.

[lizbud]

" At times I listen to Rush Limbaugh (lol, it's great comedy).
Yesterday he had a soldier fresh from Iraq on the show..

The soldier made this comment when asked about his fear of being in Iraq. He stated that he was "more afraid watching the news reports on televison" than he was of actually being there."


No doubt the guy might be afraid. he might just be in one of
the pictures or videos. :(


I don't think I'll post anymore on this issue. This whole mess in Iraq is very disturbing and sad. People can follow the news
anywhere, if they want to know what's going on.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
[B


No doubt the guy might be afraid. he might just be in one of
the pictures or videos. :(


I don't think I'll post anymore on this issue. This whole mess in Iraq is very disturbing and sad. People can follow the news
anywhere, if they want to know what's going on. [/B]


That's the spirit!!

All the soldiers are thugs.....

Iraq is disturbing.

It's better to understand the situation than it is to be burdened by the whole mess...


Thanks.

[carole]

I have not read through all of this thread, however just thought I would mention tonight I am going to watch the documentary, entitled 'SHAMED' a BBC panorama.

I have seen the shorts and it looks very interesting, the two women military personal are being interviewed and admitting worse became of the Iraqui prisoners., than what we have seen so far. I hate to think!!!

This programme may have already screened in US, so i would be interested to hear your comments, I will come back tomorrow after seeing it with my opinion.

[lizbud]

Maybe he just found the pictures disgusting, and not the
idea of torture.....


Small Comfort

By David Ignatius
Tuesday, June 15, 2004; Page A23


"The instructions went out to our people to adhere to law. That ought to comfort you," President Bush said brusquely when questioned last week about a Justice Department legal opinion authorizing harsh interrogation techniques.



We can now see the August 2002 legal opinion for ourselves, thanks to The Post, which posted the complete text on its Web site Monday. Reading the memo's legalistic explanation of why "the mere inflicting of pain or suffering on another" is not torture, you begin to understand why Attorney General John Ashcroft refused last week to release the opinion himself -- and why Bush's description of it was so misleading. The document, in its dry, lawyerly way, is as shocking as the Abu Ghraib photographs.

Contrary to Bush's account, the Justice Department memo wasn't an affirmation of laws that ban torture. Instead, it was a legal interpretation explaining how CIA interrogators could avoid liability under those laws, even if they used methods that might commonly be regarded as torture.

To understand the memo, a little background is useful. It was requested by the CIA, which wanted explicit White House authorization before using harsh interrogation techniques against al Qaeda suspects at Guantanamo Bay. Basically, agency officials didn't want to be the fall guys for presidential policy, so they asked for it in writing.

The Justice Department's top in-house lawyer, Assistant Attorney General Jay S. Bybee, responded on behalf of the Office of Legal Counsel. His memo offered three basic arguments to reassure interrogators that even if they inflicted pain and suffering on captives, they could escape legal prosecution. First, the memo parsed the meaning of Section 2340 of the U.S. Criminal Code banning torture abroad -- defined as any act "specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering . . . upon another person within his custody or physical control."

With a lawyer's hideously bland precision, the memo countered that "mere" pain wasn't enough: "Physical pain amounting to torture must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death."

That was the first line of defense for White House-sanctioned torturers: They would be okay if they avoided "the most egregious conduct" and "extreme acts."

The second defense was that the president's warmaking powers transcend normal criminal statutes. "As commander in chief, the president has the constitutional authority to order interrogations of enemy combatants," the memo noted. Any legal effort "that interferes with the president's direction of such core war matters as the detention and interrogation of enemy combatants would thus be unconstitutional."

The third defense was that even if interrogators should someday be charged with torture, they could cite special mitigating circumstances, such as "necessity" or "self-defense." These factors "would potentially alleviate criminal liability," even if an interrogation method "might arguably cross the line drawn in Section 2340." In other words, even if you do something illegal, we can get you off.

The Justice Department memo was intended to reassure CIA interrogators about inflicting pain and suffering on captives. But if they were still squeamish, they could use a procedure known as "rendition." That dry term refers to the agency's practice of sending uncooperative al Qaeda suspects to Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia and other nations that are known to use torture. Those folks don't have an Office of Legal Counsel, and they don't scruple about a few lost fingernails or broken bones.

Banning torture is a practical as well as a moral issue. Why? Note this threat last weekend by al Qaeda kidnappers in Saudi Arabia: "We have our legal right to treat [Americans] the same way they treat our people."

When the Abu Ghraib scandal broke, top Bush administration officials tried to dismiss it as the work of "a few bad apples." But it is increasingly clear that the problem is with the barrel, not just the apples. Abu Ghraib was a particularly graphic and appalling instance of an archipelago of cruel interrogation techniques that were explicitly authorized by the administration.

When we read the legalisms penned by a respected lawyer (Bybee is now a federal judge) we realize again how much America was put off balance by Sept. 11, 2001. Frightened by a deadly and ruthless enemy, the Bush administration embraced the anything-goes logic of total war.

America must regain that balance, three years after Sept. 11. We must restore meaning to the phrases Bush used to dismiss criticism last week: "We're a nation of law. We adhere to laws. We have laws on the books. You might look at those laws, and that might provide comfort for you."

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by lizbud
Maybe he just found the pictures disgusting, and not the
idea of torture.....


The Justice Department memo was intended to reassure CIA interrogators about inflicting pain and suffering on captives. But if they were still squeamish, they could use a procedure known as "rendition." That dry term refers to the agency's practice of sending uncooperative al Qaeda suspects to Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia and other nations that are known to use torture. Those folks don't have an Office of Legal Counsel, and they don't scruple about a few lost fingernails or broken bones.



Why not make them sit thru that 9/11 film by Michael Moore?

Or a J-lo Movie?

I've got it!!

A 'While You Were Out' Marathon!!!