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Bastet27
04-26-2004, 09:54 PM
Since Piper is going to be an inside cat, I'm thinking of getting her declawed. From some people I've heard its a good thing to do, from others terrible. I want to hear some PT opinions before I make my decision.:)

Lacey
04-26-2004, 10:12 PM
I've read a little bit about declawing, and what I've read, I haven't liked. The way I understand it, a kitty's claws are extensions of the bones in his or her feet. So when you declaw a cat, what you're actually doing is amputating part of its toes.

You might want to try training her on a scratcher first. Scratcher training isn't hard. Just sprinkle catnip on the scratcher. At least, that's all I did for Zelda. Occasionally she takes a shine to one of the chairs, but all I do is push her away lightly and say , "No."

QueenScoopalot
04-26-2004, 10:16 PM
http://www.declawing.com/ I'm going to paste a number of articles about declawing. http://www.catscratching.com/ There's more! http://declaw.lisaviolet.com/ One more......http://community-2.webtv.net/zuzu22/STOPDECLAWCOM/ I have even more under my other screen name, but my opinion is it's barbaric, and training is the way to go about it. I make my own scratching posts, and before I'm even done, the cats are going nuts on them! Sisal rope, some home grown catnip, and a piece of plywood are the basics. It is banned in so many countries around the world, and I sure wish it was banned here as well. Please read all the links I posted, and you can make an educated decision. ;) And cats are stoic by nature, and don't show the pain they are in. It is built into a cats being as a survival mechanism to not show pain. Dogs aren't the same. Would you chop off a dogs toes for digging in the garden? Or a childs fingers for drawing on the walls? I'm sure you wouldn't. :(

Dog1,Cats2
04-26-2004, 10:22 PM
Don't do it! It's too cruel - and unnecessary. I've never had problems with the cats I've had - just trained them where it was ok to scratch.

California has banned it.

trayi52
04-26-2004, 10:36 PM
I think the way Jen explained it is their toe are amputated, and cats walk on their toes. Am I right in this assumption, Jan?

I had thought one time about it too, my vet made it sound so simple, like all they do is cut the nail out. When I came to Pet Talk I learned the terrible truth about it. Seen a diagram of what they actually take off the poor little kitties toes. I would rather cut the ends off my own toes and fingers than to do that to Grover or Stubby.

Please do some more research on it, find out the truth. I think you will find that you want your kitty to keep its claws.

Willie

catnapper
04-26-2004, 10:47 PM
All I know is that cats walk on their toes. When you declaw, its removing their toes and causing their whole body's alignment to become out of whack.

As for scratching, I provide several scratching posts. They have taken to scratching the couch, but I've never corrected them because I HATE that couch... perhaps we'll get a new one faster :D They don't scratch anything else in the house. I have some nice pieces of furniture in the same room as the couch and they've never once laid a claw to any of them.

I keep their nails trimmed, and its not a major thing to do so. I've found some catnip before a trim does wonders for their agreeable-ness during the trim ;)

Please collect the data people will post. Read the information and make the best decision for you and your cats - not your furniture. I've seen people who have done it because they wanted to preserve their possessions, but spent more afterwards for follow up vet visits, behaviorists, medicines, etc. than they would have for a new set of furniture.

lat192004
04-26-2004, 11:52 PM
My opinion:don't declaw. Had a Siamese who had it done, made her defenseless. Scratching is an expression for a cat. I have scratching posts in every room almost. When the outdoor cats come to the window, and after the indoor cats sit and exchange stories with them, they both walk away.Then the old scratching post gets a workout. Must have been some hot news, for the old scratching post really gets scratched hard. So, if it was my kitty, don't declaw ;)

NoahsMommy
04-27-2004, 01:35 AM
Ack, not another declawing (FIGHTING) thread. Maybe you should do a search on "DECLAWING" instead of making a thread. We've had many, many hurt feelings over threads like this.

By the way, declawing was only outlawed in West Hollywood, CA.

:)

My two cent are here, this is the perfect link with sound, logical information: www.declawing.com

In short....NO to declawing. If you don't have time to teach kitty how not to claw furnature (ie: how to behave), you don't get a kitty, in my opinion...

Ally Cat's Mommy
04-27-2004, 01:38 AM
I would recommend that you read the articles mentioned, and chek out PIF's web site at PIFTAILS.COM

As others mentioned it IS an amputation, not a de-clawing. I have two cats, both with their claws intact, and through providing a scratching post and training them to use it, I have never had any inappropriate scratching behavior.

I am sure you will get all the support and help you need from everyone here at PT, to assist with training the cats to use a scratching post.

NoahsMommy
04-27-2004, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by Ally Cat's Mommy
As others mentioned it IS an amputation, not a de-clawing. I have two cats, both with their claws intact, and through providing a scratching post and training them to use it, I have never had any inappropriate scratching behavior.
I second that...I have EIGHT cats and have no problems with any sort of scratching in my home. :)

All of our cats, but two, were kittens when we brought them home. They are very simple to train in that aspect. :)

CathyBogart
04-27-2004, 01:43 AM
IN MY OPINION (Truly truly truly don't want to start any arguments, just atating my opinion and if yours is different that's A-OK with me. :) ) it's mutilation of an animal to suit a human's wants, and it's cruel. I don't like the idea at all.

trayi52
04-27-2004, 02:05 AM
Yes, I think it really is awful for the cat. Grover is the one that likes to scratch the furniture. She does the dining room chairs, the back of the couch, and other things around the house.

LOL, she loves our living room wall to! But I would rather she kept her claws than see them amputated. That really does give me the heebie jeebies for sure. I look at her cute little paws and I just cringe thinking about those cute little toes be cut off. *shudders* She doesn't really do that much damage anyway.

My advice, don't declaw.

Willie

Kater
04-27-2004, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by trayi52
My advice, don't declaw.
Same here for all the reasons already stated. Training a cat to scratch on a scratching post is very easy in my experience. Your cat deserves the chance to live a normal life and perform it's own natural behaviors.

aly
04-27-2004, 02:27 AM
If you do a search for 'declaw' on Pet Talk, you'll find tons of loooong threads, hehe. The sites people have provided also have a wealth of information. I would never declaw a cat. I have 9 cats here and have trained them all to go to the scratching posts instead of anything else.

PayItForward
04-27-2004, 02:50 AM
Originally posted by Ally Cat's Mommy
I would recommend that you read the articles mentioned, and check out PIF's web site at PIFTAILS.COM

My site is down temporaly (No idea why I am waiting for the server place to open so I can ask :(

BUT if it was working here is the link....If you want I can email them to you ?

http://www.piftails.com

I have posted my opinion underneath in order to present my views but I still want to talk to you about alternative treatments and generally discussing the fate for your sweet kitties toes :)

But I wanted you to read my opinion, please bear in mind I am from England where Declawing is illegal. So I struggle as to the advantage of Declawing over a simple scratching post ?

I have a lot of experience in trainning cats to use posts if you want the help, just ask :)

-----------------
In short Declawing is a painful expensive un-necessary operation.

It takes minutes to train a cat to use a scratching post versus a lifetime of potential problems.

There are a minimum of two cats on PT which I know have had bad reactions to declawing. One which was weeing thoughout the owners home. Other cats have been know to turn into fearful and aggressive biters, as they are scared and in pain.

Now I would prefer owning a scratching post, to sitting on a pee filled sofa or dealing with an aggressively biting cat anyday.

( NB. Not all cats with bladder problems are declawed, but it is a know cause of SOME cats bladder problems)

And scratching posts are cheap, a few dollars versus hundreds for an operation.

If you have a strong need for your cat to never ever to scratch anything try softpaws. These are soft caps which are glued lightly to your cats natural claws. Get the vets to put on the first set and show you what to do.

I would be interested in who thinks it is a good idea !!!

They tend to fall into two groups...Vets who make a lot of money with this operation and people who have been told that it was a good idea by their vet (who makes a lot of money from this procedure)

Last point :D

Over 20 countries have banned all forms of declawing (including when they snip the nerves too), it is illegal.

In human the equilevent operation would be cutting every finger and toe of at the first joint and making you walk on the toes and pick up things with the hands. Straight away :(

If we did this to a human it would be classed as torture, why should it be acceptable behaviour towards a cat :(

QueenScoopalot
04-27-2004, 09:38 AM
I think tendonectomys are just as bad! That's where the tendon is cut but the nails left intact, but useless. The nails require constant trimming, and the cat is still in pain. If you think about the act of scratching, it is to scent mark their territory, and also to provide excersize for their limbs. Left without claws, the excersize is virtually useless. Plus declawed cats can get lost. I've rescued a few in very bad shape! Woody was living in woods behind a hospital a half hour away from me. It took 4 trips back & forth to finally trap the very frightened cat. By then his tail had been ripped in half, and the stump that was left was red raw down to the bone! The rest of his tail got amputated a few days later. He didn't need to be neutered as he already was. He was also declawed. :( He had been out in the woods trying to defend himself for almost a year, and it came close to costing him his life. :(

rkidsrcats
04-27-2004, 09:48 AM
We've NEVER considered declawing. It is, in our opinion, one of the worst things you could do to your sweet kitties.
The tribe is 5 cats strong and they all have their claws. We have scratcher posts and pads everywhere they love to scratch and they rarely, if ever touch the furniture.
And just a personal observation...it looks like it feels SOOOOOO GOOOD to stretch up on a scratcher post and scrtich a little bit. Wouldn't sacrifice that for a couch any day!

catmandu
04-27-2004, 09:55 AM
My Cats Mr. Scrappy , and Mr. Fluffy were declawed m, and they had nothing , but trouble , in thier latter years , in being unable to keep the area , behindthier tails clean. I would NEVER DECLAW A CAT!!!!

sirrahbed
04-27-2004, 11:52 AM
I have had (I think 15?) cats over the years and all of them were declawed with ZERO problems. I always felt it was THE proper thing to do for an indoor cat - along with neutering - never gave it another thought except that I was doing what was best for my cat. It was NOT to protect my precious furniture - my furniture is shredded from their BACK claws! If furniture were that important, I would not have cats, or kids for that matter. Furniture is just furniture. BUT - education has to come gradually - and I have to say that at this point, after learning more about the procedure, I would NOT chose to declaw a cat in the future.

That said - I also want to comment that I came to the decision from careful reading and study and NOT because of the passionate ranting of declawing activists, some of whom I believe go overboard in their attempts to educate. THIS thread has been civil, but many have been accusatory and blaming in nature - pointing fingers of blame and judgement on people who have had the procedure done as if they were cruel and awful people for doing so.

I am going to digress a moment: I am an RN who worked surgery in the late 70's. I can recall a time when I was still in clinical with 2 other students and the patient assigned was a woman who was scheduled for an abortion. The others refused to care for her because they were Christians. I was NOT a Christian at the time and took care of the woman. Her husband had died recently, she already had four children, and she chose to have the abortion. The others stood around calling her a baby killer, etc. What did this accomplish? For one thing - it took me MANY years to become a Christian!! Secondly, even though I am now very much *against abortion*, it did not happen because of those name calling people but INSPITE of them! And, I would STILL take care of that patient today! Does calling people names help them change their mind?? No, it takes gentle teaching and understanding. Many PT folks, I have noticed from the Doghouse - are Pro-Abortion. They take offense at the Christians and others who (wrongly) use the tactics of calling them baby killers and the like. But the same is happening here!! Do you see where I am going??? Change happens gradually and namecalling, etc hurts the process and slows it down because it hurts people.

If I were to get a new cat, I would try the homemade scratching posts that someone mentioned and start them at at early age. There are plenty of sites that give good suggestions about how to provide the opportunities that cats need to use their claws. The claws can be kept trimmed. There are softpaws, etc. But, if you have already declawed your cat, for heaven's sake, do NOT feel guilty for doing so!! It is NOT a PT law that only anti-declaw folks are allowed to be here! (although after awhile, I suspect many will become anti-declaw unless they are shamed off the board) THAT is what I hope to avoid - having anyone so shamed and guilted that they feel like they are not part of this exclusive group with so many *rules* and not good enough to stay around. I am NOT trying to be snotty or smug or lecturing - just trying to be reasonable - OK??? I still suggest NOT to declaw
Ok, I am done now:)

trayi52
04-27-2004, 12:22 PM
Debbie, you are soooo right! You cannot get your point across to somebody by ranting and raving or calling them names, making them feel like nothing. We listen, when a subject is explained nicely. I know if a person start nagging, or trys to beat me over the head with what they believe, I will not even attempt to listen.

It is better to explain the proper way, rather than just getting downright rude about it.

This thread is going rather nice. I love nice, don't you, Debbie?

In other words I agree with you, Debbie. Keeping a civil tongue will go a lot further. Thanks Debbie.

Willie:)

Cataholic
04-27-2004, 12:31 PM
I want to echo Sirrahbed's post. I, too, have had many, many cats, and I made the decision to declaw them myself. They did not come to me that way, I take full responsibility for it.

I adopted Montana (the baddest black boy on four paws) in December, and he will NOT be declawed. Like Debbie, it was a process for me, too. I was educated, largely by the people here on PT..and, cannot in good conscience do this to another animal again. Learing how to deal with Monte's actions is also a process. I just can't play with him the same way, unless I want a bunch of ouchies! But, I learn. Do not, I repeat, do not pull away from a kitty that has his scissors in your hand! :D No big deal. I also trim his nails...and it has been a success! I use a loud noise to distract him from clawing where I don't want him to, and it, too seems to work.

I won't declaw another kitty again. I hope you will think this decision through, and reach your own conclusion.

moosmom
04-27-2004, 12:41 PM
I totally agree with Kelly (Noahsmommy). We beat this topic to a pulp. I also suggest you do research on it rather than ask everyone's opinion here.

PayItForward
04-27-2004, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by sirrahbed
[B]But, if you have already declawed your cat, for heaven's sake, do NOT feel guilty for doing so!! It is NOT a PT law that only anti-declaw folks are allowed to be here! (although after awhile, I suspect many will become anti-declaw unless they are shamed off the board) THAT is what I hope to avoid - having anyone so shamed and guilted that they feel like they are not part of this exclusive group with so many *rules* and not good enough to stay around.

I agree that noone that has a cat declawed in the past, should feel guilty or be made to feel guilty by anyone else.

Also many people adopt cats which are already declawed, same situation, no guilt should be involved.

But in my opinion those people who understand today what the effects are of declawing, read about this procedure and/or spoken to people who have seen the possible side effects and STILL decides to declaw should feel very guilty for the pain & suffering of their cat.

But the majority of people, like Debbie & Johanna, who learn the facts about declawing decide not to declaw in the future

BTW Bless you both for having the courage to change your views.

I agree that no one should have to leave the forum as they like declawing their cats :( As how will people learn the declawing facts if they are driven away.

Here is mine & Jen's anti-declawing articles as the site is up again, maybe someone will find them useful.

http://www.piftails.com/main/articles/health/declaw.html

http://www.piftails.com/main/articles/health/declaw_onebyone.html

RedHedd
04-27-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by NoahsMommy
Ack, not another declawing (FIGHTING) thread. Maybe you should do a search on "DECLAWING" instead of making a thread. We've had many, many hurt feelings over threads like this.

By the way, declawing was only outlawed in West Hollywood, CA.

In short....NO to declawing. If you don't have time to teach kitty how not to claw furnature (ie: how to behave), you don't get a kitty, in my opinion...
Declawing has also been outlawed in San Francisco. :)

Lallypop11
04-27-2004, 02:53 PM
I'm 500% against it. It's cruel and unusual. :mad:

kuhio98
04-27-2004, 03:15 PM
My opinion: Don't declaw. I think it's cruel and unecessary.

I've never had a cat declawed. If they attempted to claw up the furniture or rugs instead of their scratching post, I clapped my hands and shouted NO very loudly. They would stop what they were doing and being the smart kitties they are, they quickly figured out it was a no-no. It has always worked. Even with the 10+ year old kitty we adopted. She quickly learned that it was not tolerated in our house and this is no longer a problem.

I hope you reconsider. A family member had a female kitty declawed years ago and there have been many, many behavior issues with her.

Catsnclay
04-27-2004, 03:38 PM
Gosh, this subject really brings out the worst in people. My uncle had the best saying about opinions, and it goes like this: Opinions are like a**-holes, everyone has one!" PLEASE don't be offended by this.......its meant to make you laugh!! :D :)

Now with that said & done here is my opinion:

YOU know best about your situation and only YOU should decide weather to declaw or not. A lot of people gave you good sites to make YOUR opinion about your decision. You have to decide what is best for you and your situation........please do not let other people control your thoughts on ANY subject or do things to please another person. This decision is for you and only you to make.

Good luck!

slleipnir
04-27-2004, 04:56 PM
We've had many, many hurt feelings over threads like this.

Yes we have. I wouldn't mention it on this board to be honest. People have one way only of looking at it only no matter what your reason is

I have to say I am against it after doing research..but if it means declaw and keep the cat or don't declaw and get rid of it then I'd go for the first one. I'd try to train the cat first to not claw stuff. I'd use declawing as the very last resort. I do think it's not fair for the cat to be in unnecessary pain

Bastet27
04-27-2004, 06:31 PM
From what I've heard here, there is NO WAY I will be getting Piper declawed. I had no idea that declawing was cutting off part of their toes:eek: :confused: The vet I brought Piper to said it only hurts them a week, and then nothing.

carole
04-27-2004, 06:45 PM
Yes this has indeed been a very controversial subject on PT before, but as you asked, I think its good that everyone has given you their honest opinions, I too say PLEASE DONOT DECLAW, it appears you have come to that decision, and I am personally very happy to read that.:)

guster girl
04-27-2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by Bastet27
The vet I brought Piper to said it only hurts them a week, and then nothing.

My cat is declawed, and, had no problem at all with the surgery or the healing process. he was leaping around like a fool the day I brought him home from the vet's, the day of the surgery. He wore an elizabethan collar for a few days, but, didn't have a problem with it, either. And, he didn't have any adverse reactions, physically or behaviourally. My two cats that I had when I was married (RB Justin, and, his mom, Vella) were both declawed and had nary a problem. My childhood cat (RIP Dusty) was ten years old when my parents declawed him because he suddenly decided to destroy all the walls in their home. He had no problem healing, either, and never had any adverse reactions in any way. He was the same ol' Dusty. I think you're making an intelligent decision, but, I also wanted to say that it's not always going to affect the animal in a negative way. Just my experience.

PayItForward
04-28-2004, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by Bastet27
The vet I brought Piper to said it only hurts them a week, and then nothing.
I am SO PLEASED that Piper can keep his toes and Piper would be too.

Of course the vet says the operation is no big deal, he makes ALOT of money doing that operation. No declawing, no money.

Did you know that vets test their strongest painkillers on cats as they declaw them and post op. So that very act shows how painful the operation is.


Originally posted by guster girl
I think you're making an intelligent decision, but, I also wanted to say that it's not always going to affect the animal in a negative way. Just my experience.
You are right some cats hide their pain and seem to have no side effects (Apart from bad joints and heart because of the surgery :( )

But is it worth the risk as it is unecessary operation.

guster girl
04-28-2004, 11:18 AM
I treat my pets better than most people treat their children. My world basically revolves around them, it's why I joined this site. I've always had declawed cats in my life, and, I know many people that have declawed cats. And, trust me on this, I KNOW my cat. He doesn't hide pain. He's the biggest cry baby out there, and, he will milk a situation for as much attention as he can get. I'm not saying it wasn't painful at all, because surgery is, but, Lock was not affected by it anymore than he was affected by his neutering. And, yes, I realize that neutering is necessary and declawing isn't. I'm an intelligent person, and, I had declawed Lock for reasons other than furniture. And, when someone has already stated that they've declawed their cats, I think it's inappropriate to ask them if they think it's worth the risk. If someone tells me that they feed their cat or dog science diet or most of the other commercially processed pet foods, I'm not going to shoot off the list of diseases and deaths related to diet, and, then ask them if they think feeding their pet crapinabag is worth the risk, unless they ask me for the advice. And, all of my declawed cats have always had good, regular veterinary care, and, none of them had heart problems or bad joints.

sirrahved
04-28-2004, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by RedHedd
Declawing has also been outlawed in San Francisco. :)

Isn't everything, except being gay and abortions, outlawed in San Francisco?

sirrahved
04-28-2004, 11:31 AM
I know, I know, *sighs* I just couldn't help myself!!

All of this "being married to your son" business is intesifying my cynism...

sirrahbed
04-28-2004, 11:41 AM
Originally posted by sirrahved
I know, I know, *sighs* I just couldn't help myself!!
All of this "being married to your son" business is intesifying my cynism...
oops I deleted my post but esentially I teased my DIL for being sarcastic and fueling the fire:rolleyes:

Ally Cat's Mommy
04-28-2004, 12:02 PM
It would seem that Bastet27 has reached her decision, and will not be declawing Piper. I would love dearly for Karen to lock this thread , so it could slowly "disappear"

I think that many decisions come down the amount of information you have at hand when you make them. As I have said before, I own two cats, who are not declawed. I also am pretty sure that if I did not have access to the wealth of information available on the internet, I would NOT have realised what the procedure entails.

If I think back 10 years, and I had owned a cat then, and my regular vet had suggested de-clawing I would probably have thought (okey-dokey, it's the "usual" thing to do). All I can say is THANK GOODNESS for the internet, and the wealth of information it puts at our disposal."

One more comment, and I hope I don't offend anyone......

PLEASE remember that sarcasm does not always "translate" well in writing - it may seem funny to the writer, who understands what "tone" is intended, but it may not be understood that way by the reader.