Freedom of Speech

[dukedogsmom]

A certain thread that was started yesterday was deleted. I guess that was because it didn't conform to the majority of the views of other pt people. However, this is the Dog House and I thought that's why this area was created. I'm not meaning to stir up trouble, just wanted to voice my opinion on the fact. Here is the first paragraph of the introduction of the Dog House:
We have created a new forum for any post that is in some way controversial, upsetting, or just makes us go eeeew! In it are threads about the war, debates and arguments about religion, patriotism and politics, and the recipe for "poop cake."
So, I guess it's alright as long as it's every one else's opinion?

[ILoveReptiles]

I agree with you. I was confused as to why the thread was removed.

[catland]

I am not familiar with the thread in question but from my past experience here a couple of things could have happened here.

1. The owner of the thread could have deleted it. All of us have the right to delete threads that we start - we don't even need a reason.

2. Something about the thread crossed the line of taste and decorum and the powers that be made the choice to delete the thread. It's their web site, they pay for it, and they have every right to do so. It is their virtual "home" so to speak, and its up to the rest of us to respect that.

I'm sure that if you PM Karen or Paul, they can let you know what happened.

[Logan]

I'm assuming that the one who originated the thread deleted it, as there was nothing that I saw that was controversial enough for management to delete it. I would like to see an explanation as well, though. Hopefully the one who deleted it will explain, shortly.

[Kfamr]

I agree Val.

No matter how the thread was deleted.. If i'm thinking of the same post as you, it was pretty rude how some replied to it.

[Logan]

What I saw, and replied to, KayAnn, wasn't "rude", it was their opinion. Isn't there a difference? I am one who doesn't like to respond in the Dog House, often, because my opinion differs from others, quite often. But if I do respond, I try to do it with respect for other's opinions. Healthy respect and differing opinions is what the "Dog House" was created for in the first place, I think, unless I have completely misunderstood the whole intention. That's why I was so dismayed to see the post about the "Curves" guy go away. I hope the originator of the thread will let us know why he/she took it away.

Logan

[Kfamr]

I found some of it as rude, and that's my opinion. I don't even have an opinion on the original subject or that post, but I still found how some people chose to reply as very rude. But, it didn't really surprise me from these users, because generally I've seen them reply that way before. I will not point out names though.

[Karen]

I did not delete that thread. If Paul or I deletes a particular thread, we send a PM or email to everyone who had posted in it.

It is always the option of anyone who creates a thread to delete it. Only that person and moderators have that choice.

I am familiar with the thread in question. It had turned into a different discussion than it started out to be.

Let us remember that everyone at Pet Talk is special, even in the Dog House.

[sirrahved]

Hmmm, I hadn't even noticed it was gone. Now that you mentioned it I realize which one you were talking about.

You have the right to start it again, I suppose, but it kind of seemed like we were beating a dead horse.

[sirrahved]

Originally posted by Karen
I am familiar with the thread in question. It had turned into a different discussion than it started out to be.


IMHO, that thread was started to be snide about people with opposing views...

[Cataholic]

I recognize someone's 'right' to delete a thread (as much as I don't like it) but...isn't is ironic that someone would delete a thread that started out as an adult exercising his "right" to spend his money how ever he sees fit? It is like, "how DARE he use MY money to further HIS ends". Then, to delete the thread? It kind of supports a theory like, "well, if you aren't doing or saying exactly what I want you to do or say, then Bye Bye".
Maybe it isn't irony. But, it is something. I am reserving my right to rename it later.

If you want to exercise your right, you have to let others exercise their right. (funny...curves, exercising rights..he he he).

[sirrahved]

lol you crack me up, Cataholic!

For some reason when I see C-A-T-A-H-O-L-I-C my mind saysC-A-T-H-O-L-I-C! Okay, so I've digressed...

[popcornbird]

I did read that thread, and was going to respond.........but it was gone before I got the chance. I read everyone's posts there last night, and I didn't find anything rude in there. Is it so wrong to post one's opinions? Funny how certain peoples' opinions are opinions, and the opinions of others are *rude* if they don't agree with you. Funny.

LOL Johanna! I agree with you, 100%.

[Kfamr]

Originally posted by popcornbird
I read everyone's posts there last night, and I didn't find anything rude in there. Is it so wrong to post one's opinions? Funny how certain peoples' opinions are opinions, and the opinions of others are *rude* if they don't agree with you. Funny.



I never said it was wrong to post one's opinion. As I said, I have no opinion on the original subject, it's just how some of the posters went about posting. I didn't agree or disagree on either side, I did disagree on how some went about expressing them though. I found it as rude, and it wasn't even on the subject, it's just how they went about saying it.

Very funny. :rolleyes:

[Logan]

I thought as much, Karen, as to why you would lock/delete a thread.

This was actually a healthy discussion, even if it did offer differing opinons on abortion and on the actions of the guy who started "Curves". I still commend him for putting his money into efforts that he feels are worthwhile. I would still stand by him, even if my opinons are different from his (which they are not, and why I posted what I did earlier, before the thread was deleted).

[catnapper]

Boy, I always seem to miss the good stuff ;)

I read the thread when it started and could tell that it was going to be a really hot thread once I saw a few of the responses- I stayed away from it after that because, believe it or not, I have no real opinion on the subject myself. I am an opnionated person and had no opinion!!!! :D

[aly]

I was disappointed to see the thread gone because I wanted to read the rest of the replies after the last one I made last night.

I hope I wasn't rude in my reply. I don't think I was. I just stated my opinion... I hope!

[Logan]

Aly, you weren't rude. No one was rude, thank goodness. Obviously, the one who started the thread (and I don't remember who started it, but Wolfchan, I think), owes us an explanation as to why it was deleted, since the moderators didn't delete it.

Logan

[Nomilynn]

Originally posted by Logan
I still commend him for putting his money into efforts that he feels are worthwhile. I would still stand by him, even if my opinons are different from his (which they are not, and why I posted what I did earlier, before the thread was deleted).

I didn't reply to the other thread, but I had planned to. I don't know if I totally agree with what you say here, Logan. Would you really support someone who did something that you felt was completely morally wrong, just because you feel he has a "right" to do what he feels is right? I'm not trying to attack you here, I'm just curious what your response might be :)

Also, if a person chooses to delete a thread, I don't really think they "owe" anyone an explanation. It's that person's perogative to delete or keep a thread, and to say that people are "owed" an explanation is a bit harsh.. I've deleted threads before and never felt that I should have to "answer" to my actions.

Just my two cents :)

[Twisterdog]

Dang. My ISP server was down last night, so I couldn't get online. I miss one night ... and something exciting happens. :(

And ... hee, hee, hee ... a thread that degraded to a fight - and I wasn't to blame! :D

Hey, someone post the topic again! ;)

[Logan]

Originally posted by Nomilynn
I didn't reply to the other thread, but I had planned to. I don't know if I totally agree with what you say here, Logan. Would you really support someone who did something that you felt was completely morally wrong, just because you feel he has a "right" to do what he feels is right? I'm not trying to attack you here, I'm just curious what your response might be :)

Also, if a person chooses to delete a thread, I don't really think they "owe" anyone an explanation. It's that person's perogative to delete or keep a thread, and to say that people are "owed" an explanation is a bit harsh.. I've deleted threads before and never felt that I should have to "answer" to my actions.

Just my two cents :)

I'll be glad to answer your question, Naomi. There are many times when I don't agree with things that people do and say, either here at Pet Talk or in life. It is not so much supportof the person, but support of the right to their own opinion, as long as it is legal and in good taste. In the case of the man who was the "topic" of the discussion that was deleted, I happen to agree with his stance, but that has nothing to do with my opinion about free speech. Even if my opinion differs from that of another, I try to be respectful of it. Isn't that "freedom of speech", in the true sense of the word? My best friend in this world is a die hard Democrat. I am a die hard Republican. That doesn't make me love her any less. It just gives me another angle to look at things, from the eyes of someone I have the utmost respect for.

As for the deletion, I guess it is that person's perogative to explain or not explain, but I think in a situation like this, where so many people put their heart and soul into responding, it is an act of cowardice to delete the thread with no explanation at all. It is obvious that Karen has already stated that she and Paul didn't delete it, so the originator must have. Yes, I would like to have an explanation. I'm sure that the person who started the thread had a good reason for deleting it. I just know that many of us would like to understand her reasoning for doing so.

By the way, Twisterdog, there was no fight (at least not that I saw). It was a perfectly good thread of people expressing their opinions respectfully. :)

[Nomilynn]

Thanks for replying Logan :) I think what I meant, even though I did a horrible job of wording it, was if for example someone who ran a business used his/her money for something you totally disagreed with, would you continue to use/spend money/etc that particular business? If I were in that situation, while I wouldn't necessarily say that the business owner should have to stop using his/her money in that way, I would certainly want to be aware so that I would not continue to support the cause that I didn't agree with. To me it's very much the same thing as say, not buying a puppy from a pet store, but rather going to a shelter. Does that make sense? :)

[CathyBogart]

It didn't degrade into a fight....It turned from letting people know that they would be supporting certain organizations if they went there into an abortion debate. I don't CARE if he wants to put his money into something important to him, good for him!!

If I was making that much money, you can bet that a lot of it would go to BAARS. (The Bay Area Amphibian and Reptile Society). BUT I would make that widely known so that (among other reasons) if one of the many people who disagrees with the keeping of reptiles as pets didn't want to support BAARS they wouldn't have to.

I don't want him to stop donating to charities that are important to him, I just don't want people who feel the same way I do to donate to them inadvertantly.

Some people were rude, and criticizing ME for things that the person who originally wrote it said, and I felt I could no longer be civil. Also, several members were making (what I felt were) broad generalizing topics that felt rather degrading. So I deleted the whole thing rather than make it any worse or more off topic than it already was.

It's hurtful that I have opened up to people here and told them why this topic is so important to me (Which is something almost NOBODY knows in real life) and yet cutting generalizations were made that FELT LIKE they were aimed at me because the person didn't like the original post. Maybe I overreacted, but I don't think so.

I ALMOST didn't post this, because I don't feel that I OWE an explanation to anyone. BUT....Anything for you, Dukedogsmom! ;) :D

[ILoveReptiles]

I can TOTALLY understand that, WolfChan. You're right that the thread did dissolve into something totally unrelated.

I stand behind your decision to delete it 100%

[Logan]

Originally posted by Nomilynn
Thanks for replying Logan :) I think what I meant, even though I did a horrible job of wording it, was if for example someone who ran a business used his/her money for something you totally disagreed with, would you continue to use/spend money/etc that particular business? If I were in that situation, while I wouldn't necessarily say that the business owner should have to stop using his/her money in that way, I would certainly want to be aware so that I would not continue to support the cause that I didn't agree with. To me it's very much the same thing as say, not buying a puppy from a pet store, but rather going to a shelter. Does that make sense? :)

I completely understand your question, Naomi, and I agree with you 100%. Somehow, I didn't understand it the first time around! LOL!!! :o

That thread did get off topic, a bit, and my original response probably added to that (I'm sorry, Wolfchan, I had the best of intentions), but I was directing my response at one particular sentence that someone had written after Wolfchan's original post. It said something to the effect that women should have "choices" and "freedom", and I was giving my opinion that they do have many choices and freedom. I won't restate it again, for fear of upsetting the apple cart!

If I offended anyone, I apologize. I was using that thread to state my opinion, as I thought the Dog House was for that very purpose!

Best intentions.
Logan

[Cataholic]

WC- Although I missed what I considered the 'good stuff'...I did read alot of the before stuff. I really, really didn't see people directing anything towards YOU. I am not saying you don't have the right to delete a thread..but, that if you did it cause you felt people were attacking you, well, I just didn't see it.

Anytime someone posts an opinion different than yours, or mine, or whomevers, it could seem like they are attacking you, or me, or whomever. But, really, that is only because we feel we 'own' an opinion, and that it is an attack. Opinions are just opinions. I don't think they necessarily comport to a part of that person's character. For instance, many people on here let it be known that they don't approve/like attorneys and some of the litigation that makes it into the news. I don't think they are attacking me, personally (except when PT tried to exclude me from PTville :p ). It is just their opinion.

[sirrahved]

Just to let everyone know, if you give me money, I buy charmin toilet paper.

Anyone have a problem with that?

[Cataholic]

As you should, since Charmin is the BEST!