"One nation UNDER GOD" banned?

[CamCamPup33]

Should public schools encourage students to not only "the republic" but also to affirm that it is "under God." What if you don't believe in God, or think that religion is a crutch, a fairy tale, or a tool of oppression. If you come from a family of atheists, should you be coerced by a public school to declare your belief in God?

The 9th circuit says no, and the Bush administration says yes, according to an article i read.. What do you say?

*In my opinion*
The "Pledge" should stay the same.. Congress has always said that same pledge, and so has the supreme court.

It's not like it singles out any particular God. And if you don't believe in any God, then just don't say that phrase (under God).

Even though "under God" is in the pledge, it does not harm the idea of keeping church and state seperate..

*Here is a website on it..HERE (http://www.claytoncramer.com/UnderGod.html)*

[2kitties]

I'm a Christian.
I feel very strongly that these words should COME OFF our money and COME OUT of our Pledge. I feel that a secular government is the only way we can remain a civilized, industrialized nation.

No matter how you look at it, the words are Unconstitiutional under the First Amendment. It may not matter to those of us who worship a God, it is simply not Constitutional in my view.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"

no law respecting- this is pretty clear to me.

It is unconstitutional.
Nothing good comes of leaving it in there.
If it stays, then those people who don't believe in God are offended.
Also if it stays, then religious people need to understand the full implications of it. In order for Under God to be declared constitutional, then the terms Under God must be deemed by the court as inconsequential terms of little importance. Do religious people really want that terms declared weak? I think not.


This was not the vision of our forefathers. Let's not kid ourselves. It was added to the pledge as a knee jerk reaction to the cold war in the time of Macarthism. It need to go. Take it off the money too. And I volunteer to collect all the offensive money! "E Pluribus Unum" works fine for money and anything else we need to have a national motto printed on. Until then, I volunteer to collect all the offensive money. If you wish to give me any of your offensive money, pm me.

"God" applies religion. Specifically, a monothiestic religion. This alienates pagan and athiest Americans. It essentially says that you have to be religious in order to pledge allengiance to your flag.

[Tubby & Peanut's Mom]

Originally posted by 2kitties
I feel that a secular government is the only way we can remain a civilized, industrialized nation.

Here here!!! I have no opinion on the pledge issue, but I agree whole heartedly with 2kitties on this point. I think in more ways than one we are forgetting why the first pilgrims came to this country - to get away from religious persecution. We absolutely positively MUST keep religion and politics two separate entities.

And as for Bush, I'll admit I voted for him last time, but I'm really fed up with some of the things I've been hearing about him and his "religion" lately, so it's highly unlikely that I'll be voting for him again.

Anyway, I could go on and on but I didn't mean to turn this thread into a different rant than its original intention. :)

[ramanth]

Debbie and 2kitties pretty much worded very well how I feel. :)

[Freckles]

I graduated from high school in 1952 which ended most of the pledge opportunities. When the pledge changed a couple of years later, I can only remember being surprised that "under God" was added.


In fact, I can remember the first year or two at school, at the words "allegiance to" we turned our arm, palm up towards the flag. That was stopped at the start of WWII because it looked similar to the nazi salute. :(

[CamCamPup33]

Originally posted by Freckles
I graduated from high school in 1952 which ended most of the pledge opportunities. When the pledge changed a couple of years later, I can only remember being surprised that "under God" was added.


In fact, I can remember the first year or two at school, at the words "allegiance to" we turned our arm, palm up towards the flag. That was stopped at the start of WWII because it looked similar to the nazi salute. :(

I have only known 'under god' in the pledge, so i really couldnt imagine it any other way.. :o

[2kitties]

The legislative history of the 1954 act stated that the hope was to "acknowledge the dependence of our people and our Government upon … the Creator … [and] deny the atheistic and materialistic concept of communism." In signing the bill on June 14, 1954, Flag Day, Eisenhower delighted in the fact that from then on, "millions of our schoolchildren will daily proclaim in every city and town … the dedication of our nation and our people to the Almighty." That the nation, constitutionally speaking, was in fact dedicated to the opposite proposition seemed to escape the President.
Not only that, but the band played "Onward Christian Soldiers" during the ceremony that added those words to the Pledge. So it is naive to say that the words Under God were meant to have anything but Christian connotation.

[RICHARD]

If an atheist does not believe in god, why is he in such a hurry to ban him for the rest of us?

I don't believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, or Superman-but why not leave them for the rest who do?

Separation of church and state.......It will never happen...Most of the laws in this country are based on that 'old tyme religion'....

Thou shalt not kill, commit adultery, steal, car bomb, lie.......

I think our forefathers weren't trying to keep religion OUT of politics.....they were trying keep politics embracing religion, any religion you want and believe in!

They ran away from England BECAUSE of religious persecution......THEY HAD TO BELIEVE IN WHAT THE government deemed to be the 'religion du jour'..
the pilgrims came to North America for RELIGIOUS FREEDOM....

the word GOD is a nebulous pronoun it's there so no one will feel slighted, it's not Yaweh, Krishna, Jesus Christ, Muhammad.....

It's just GOD and it's a concept that has 300 million different definitions.

In god we trust-all others pay cold hard cash.

:confused:

[CamCamPup33]

Originally posted by RICHARD
If an atheist does not believe in god, why is he in such a hurry to ban him for the rest of us?

I don't believe in Santa, the Easter Bunny, or Superman-but why not leave them for the rest who do?


Agreed.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by CamCamPup33
Agreed.

I do draw the line at the Tooth Fairy....;)

[CamCamPup33]

Originally posted by RICHARD
I do draw the line at the Tooth Fairy....;)

LOL! :D :D

[2kitties]

Originally posted by RICHARD
If an atheist does not believe in god, why is he in such a hurry to ban him for the rest of us?
Nobody is Banning God, Richard. But a relationship with God or Gods or no God or Gods is personal, not political. And I think it's about high time the Tooth Fairy got some respect in this world, dangit!

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by 2kitties
Nobody is Banning God, Richard. But a relationship with God or Gods or no God or Gods is personal, not political.

You are correct....
It is truly a personal, not a political pursuit,
I just wanted to chime in about how the country came about due to religion and how the country guarantees our freedom to pursue which ever one
we see fit.

It's just alot of work to be bothered by 7 letters..:confused:

But,
Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy??
;)

[CamCamPup33]

Originally posted by RICHARD
You are correct....
It is truly a personal, not a political pursuit,
I just wanted to chime in about how the country came about due to religion and how the country guarantees our freedom to pursue which ever one
we see fit.

It's just alot of work to be bothered by 7 letters..:confused:

But,
Do you believe in the Tooth Fairy??
;)

*Ahem*

I believe it's 8.. LOL!

[2kitties]

OF course. How else did the dollar always get under my pillow?

[popcornbird]

But........but.........but.............then why don't Atheists complain about using dollar bills? After all, they also say *In GOD we Trust* on them. Hmmm...............Are we going to change our money too? :confused:

[CamCamPup33]

Originally posted by popcornbird
But........but.........but.............then why don't Atheists complain about using dollar bills? After all, they also say *In GOD we Trust* on them. Hmmm...............Are we going to change our money too? :confused:

OO's and AHH's, Good point pops.. :D

[2kitties]

Yes, Poppy. The money is very offensive. Please send all your offensive money to me as I am the official collector of the offensive money.
Please PM me for my address.

But yes, I addressed that in my first post. It needs to come off, IMO. I imagine that the precident set by this case will lead to lots of spinoffs.
E Pluribus Unum" works fine for money and anything else we need to have a national motto printed on.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by CamCamPup33
*Ahem*

I believe it's 8.. LOL!

I counted eight and took out one for the space..
;)


2K,

I guess you won't take a check???

:rolleyes:

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by 2kitties
Yes, Poppy. The money is very offensive. Please send all your offensive money to me as I am the official collector of the offensive money.
Please PM me for my address.


Sorry.............won't fall for your trick in stealing all my money and making me bankrupt!!! :eek:

:p

[mugsy]

While I am all for separation of church and state, I will say that the guy in CA that started this whole thing failed to take something into consideration....we are a democratic republic where majority rules....and the majority of people (in the many polls I've seen) would rather see "under God" stay in the pledge. My parents are both of the opinion that it never should have been put in in the first place (and I agree).

Money is the other issue....I agree...you don't see atheists who object to the Pledge so strongly, refusing to take money. Hmmmm....perhaps we should point that out to them.;)

All we are actually doing by making this a HUGE political thing and wasting the court's time and the taxpayers' money is giving this guy attention that he doesn't deserve.

As for the debate at hand. If we take God out of everything political, we may be better off. But, I don't think that's what the Founding Fathers had in mind. Our country was founded on religious freedom (although the Pilgrims and Puritans didn't practice it) and at that time the issue was just what Christian religion was being practiced. I don't think that they ever would have imagined all the other religions that would have come to these shores. Remember, the NATIVE Americans were pagan, but, the Europeans came over thinking that their way was the only way and look what happened!

So, that was a long winded explanation of my opinion which is basically that religion should stay out of politics...I'm with 2kitties.

[Pam]

Well we had better start tearing down many of the buildings in Washington which have scripture inscribed on their walls. Just take a look at this country since prayer was banished from the schools. Need I say more? You want to leave God out? This country will reap what it sows. I truly hope this doesn't happen. This is just plain sad. :(

[CathyBogart]

I'm pagan, and while these don't particularly bother me, I never stood for or said the pledge of allegiance in school for just this reason. I would rather see religion and politics completely separated, and I admire this man for taking the time to stand up for what he believes in. I hope it will be the first step towards getting religion removed from other things too. (Yes, even the almighty dollar)

Oh, and if you want your kids to pray in school, there are plenty of religious private schools! :mad: I became pagan around fourth grade when I started actually researching different religions, and the more I learn the happier I am. I was as stubborn then as I am now, and I probably would have walked out and not looked back. :rolleyes:

[Pam]

Originally posted by WolfChan
Oh, and if you want your kids to pray in school, there are plenty of religious private schools! :mad:

That is exactly what I had to do!!! :mad: :mad: I had to pay the equivalent of a mortgage payment to give my children the same kind of education that I received years before for free (with God not only allowed but mentioned and .... GASP!!! we actually read the Bible in school!! DOUBLE GASP!) Guess what!! It didn't hurt anyone, and no one was being shot to death in school and drugs were non-existent and teen pregnancy was rare. If you think today is better, (you weren't even around then) you are sadly wrong. :rolleyes:

[mugsy]

Originally posted by Pam
Just take a look at this country since prayer was banished from the schools.

Pam,

As an educator, I would like to say something about this. I do not know how it is in other states, but, I am assuming it is similar. I do not have enough minutes in my classes to cover all the material that the state says that I have to teach. I wouldn't have enough time in the day for prayers of all of the religions that I have in my classes (and our school isn't all that balanced). While I respect your opinion, I have to disagree. I guess, I believe that if someone wants to pray, they have the right to do so privately and I wouldn't intervere. Personally, I would not feel comfortable leading a prayer in a public school.

I suppose that just follows my opinion that there should be a separation of church and state. I have no problem with religion, being that I am Catholic, but, I think that there is a time and place and government offices and schools, etc are not the place.

I do, however, understand your side.

Molly

[Pam]

Molly thank you for a rational reply. :) Regarding your comment about silent prayer still being acceptable, along the same lines I would hope that if it eventually becomes "inappropriate" recite *Under God* that any student who wishes to say it out loud on their own, during the recitation of the Pledge, would be allowed that right or if, likewise, someone wanted to pray out loud. After all we do still have free speech don't we?

[mugsy]

Pam,

I will say that I don't care if they pray outloud...just not when I'm teaching!;) Along the same lines, I think that Campus Life should be held off campus as well...again, my views on separation of church and state.

Actually, to tell you the truth, I find people who are extreme on either end of the spectrum offensive. The religious fanatics are equally obnoxious to me as the atheist/pagan fanatics. Personally, people should be able to believe whatever way they so choose, just don't shove it down other people's throats. I guess that's pretty much why I don't think public prayer should be in schools...that way, it SHOULD become a non-issue simply because it isn't happening and everyone can do their thing on their own time.

A man I teach with is a devout atheist, should we, in good faith, ask him to lead a class in a prayer when he doesn't believe? I guess I think that would be kind of hypocritical. Not only that, he would flat out refuse to do so and it would get REALLY ugly.

[CathyBogart]

Well, guess what...*gasp* We didn't have any of those problems at the school I went to either! We had the obligatory "problem children" of course, but I can think of perhaps fifteen out of four thousand students who were involved with drugs or got pregnant as teens. (Myself included)

I just called my grandmother who was in school "way back when" and she has confirmed that she doesn't think that things have degraded as much as you imply. She told me "Well, we had our share of problems too, but we didn't make them public!" So my guess is that in part people are just more open about their lives.

Also, my grandmother mntioned that just about everyone had an after-school job or other obligations that often kept them quite busy, so they might not have had TIME to discovere recreational drugs or premarital sex.

Personally, I think that the real solution lies in proper sex ed and more incentive to join after school activities. But hey, that might be just me.

Edited to add; I don't think I'm a "fanatic", I'm just adament about not letting stuff get shoved down my throat either. *chuckles*

[mugsy]

Oh trust me.....things are A LOT worse in schools than they were when I was (and prayer had already been banned). I see it on a daily basis. Things are worse then they were in 1988 when I started subbing. There is no respect for authority, rules, etc. I believe that it can be attributed to the further breakdown of the family. I probably don't have 1/3 of my kids that are living with both parents who are married. When I was in school in the '70s, I only knew 3 or 4 kids whose parents were divorced. I certainly didn't see teen pregnancy like it is now....in 1990, I had 3 EIGHTH graders who were pregnant in one year....when I was in school....I knew 2 the entire time I was in high school....

but....we digress from the original post....sorry...

[Felicia's Mom]

Like some others, I can remember not saying the words "Under God" in the pledge. One day the teacher told the class to say those words and where to say them. To me they were just two extra words to remember. (I was in the second grade).

[2kitties]

Pam, I respect your opinion. There are certainly undeniable problems with schools. I personally don't think that lack a prayer is to blame, but I don't have any other answers, so that is certainly a valid point of view. I do wonder, though, in your plan, what would you have students like Popcornbird, or a Jewish student or a non-religious child or Pagan, or Buddhist.. what would they do during a Christian class prayer?
And assuming the answer is to simply not participate, don't you think that would create alienation and anxiety for those students. Self-conciousness resulting in anger and, potentially, the same violent situations schools currently suffer from? Certainly I have no expertise in this subject, but the biggest change I've seen in schools since I was there, is the lack of authority to discipline given to teachers and administrators.

Again, I don't presume to know the answers, I'm just asking.

[CathyBogart]

Thanks 2kitties. :)

I just remembered something my sociology teacher told us...

At the same time of year that ice cream consumption goes up, so does the rate of drowning. Does this mean that eating ice cream causes more people to drown? No, there's another factor there. ^_^

[ziron]

enough is enough...if church and state are to not be involved lets just get rid of the UNDER GOD and take out god related things on money. It wouldn't bother me personally anyway what they do it. But to stop wasteing time and money of our government just get it done now. Who are these people that take such unimportant things and make them into a 7 month long dispute. Are we all just so botherd by it we can't stand it anymore? I am in highschool now and I never say the pledge I don't see the sense in it.. Its a flag not a shrine. now Education and religion should not be involved..its like mixing water and oil it doesn't...religion is about fairy tales that never happened and is ultimatly a lie Education on the other hand teaches the real and true. now about how prayers in school wouldn't stop crap. Just because way back when u were school u didn't have school shootings and drugs etc. Doesn't mean it was beacause of prayers. I wouldn't doubt if just as many if not more religious people commit crimes as athesists. Religion is not a factor as it once was since the people with sense shot that birdy down. Thousands of people died beacuse of fighting over religion. So how would that help in schools? School shootings happen because of poor parenting and the media. I don't see how takin out UNDER GOD would offened religious people anyways. If anything I think they would want it since it shows were a religious neutral country. Bush = how my school has less money and a higher level of education for which we must now reach. And Bush even lied about how his plan worked so good in his state.. yeah they had a hudge amount of drop outs but lied on the books so it seemed so perfact. oh yes the toothfairy is very real =p

[2kitties]

yikes ziron. A little bitter?

[minkyboodle]

I'm an atheist and I really wouldn't care much one way or another except that people who are really religious seem to want to stick their views on me. I believe that the in god we trust should be taken off because well...it's meaning less to ALOT of different people.

Church and State do need to be seperated but it isn't happening because of people like Bush. The whole thing with Gay marriage, that is a religious view being forced upon the rest of us. I don't believe that is right...and the whole thing about "sanctity of marriage" yea...don't pull that crap...look at the divorce rate...there is no sanctity.

Things like that really make me sad and upset, I don't like the people who are religious trying to make me think they way they think just because they feel they have the better idea.

[Logan]

Originally posted by 2kitties
yikes ziron. A little bitter?

I was going to comment on this tirade a bit too! Good grief, you came on strong, very quickly, Ziron! You're entitled to your opinion too, though, and you sure gave it.

As long as there is a Pledge of Allegiance, I will always say "One Nation Under God", regardless of what they tell me I am supposed to say.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by WolfChan


At the same time of year that ice cream consumption goes up, so does the rate of drowning. Does this mean that eating ice cream causes more people to drown? No, there's another factor there. ^_^

Yes,

You should wait 15 minutes after you eat before swimming.

Actually,

Your body shunts more blood to your stomach, to aid in digestion, right after you eat- so, you are more vulnerable to your muscles cramping due to lack of blood....

Ice cream, swimming?? Summer! Heat!



;)

[CamCamPup33]

Originally posted by ziron
religion is about fairy tales that never happened and is ultimatly a lie Education on the other hand teaches the real and true.

Just because you don't believe it, why should they take it from the other people who do? What are we if we aren't a nation 'under god'? A nation under Bush? Or any other person who steps in every four-eight years? Hardly. The phrase 'under god' really isn't hurting anyone. You are not forced to say it, stay seated if you feel it is just a flag. You can opt out from saying it if you disagree with it. But if they take it out, what do the people who do the people who beleive have?

[2kitties]

The people who believe are left with prayer, church and their relationship with their God or diety.

What of the "people who believe that women shouldn't make equal wage" or the "people who believe" blacks should be satisfied with separate but equal. Or "people who believe" a person's religion should be personal.

There are "people who believe" alot of things. That's why those beliefs need to remain neutral in the government of a FREE nation.

[minkyboodle]

Originally posted by CamCamPup33
Just because you don't believe it, why should they take it from the other people who do? What are we if we aren't a nation 'under god'? A nation under Bush? Or any other person who steps in every four-eight years? Hardly. The phrase 'under god' really isn't hurting anyone. You are not forced to say it, stay seated if you feel it is just a flag. You can opt out from saying it if you disagree with it. But if they take it out, what do the people who do the people who beleive have?

They aren't taking anything away from anyone, you can still believe it while it isn't written in and if all you have with your god is just a saying in our government then you should reconsider everything you believe in.

We aren't a nation under god so we shouldn't say that...we should be a nation united but silly stuff like this is dividing us. We are a "Nation of the people" at least I think should be said.

[mugsy]

ziron....I hate to break it to you, but people who proudly say the Pledge are pledging their patriotism to our country NOT "just" the flag. A flag is not just a piece of cloth...it is what it represents. I would hope that every person in the world would feel that way about their flag. If you have such a problem with it, when it's said, remain seated, but don't complain when people say something about it....it's your choice, and you should deal with the consequences. No one is saying that the flag is a shrine. Just be glad that that "just a flag" and what it represents allows you to say the things you did without fear of retribution.

Like I said before, this country was founded on the idea of democracy, where majority rules....whatever the majority decides (within the bounds of the law....we wouldn't want anarchy! lol) should be what goes. If the majority of people want "under God" left in the Pledge, then it should stay...if the majority want it out...then it should revert back to its original text.

[2kitties]

Originally posted by mugsy
Like I said before, this country was founded on the idea of democracy, where majority rules....whatever the majority decides (within the bounds of the law....we wouldn't want anarchy! lol) should be what goes. If the majority of people want "under God" left in the Pledge, then it should stay...if the majority want it out...then it should revert back to its original text.

Mugsy, I have to respectfully disagree with this part of your post (although I'm totally on board with the first half!)
Religious people in general are the majority. Christian, I think, are the majority in the US. So, naturally, if a vote were held, the majority would be Christian.
Non-religious people are the Minority and can't be held to a vote for that reason.
Blacks are a minority- so does that mean we shouldn't have to represent their interests? Jews? Chinese? Hispanics?
We have to use our Constitution, our compassion, our loyalty to freedom to make sure the voice of even the small minorities is heard in this country.
So, in some cases, Majority Rules just doesn't cut it.

[ziron]

were under the sky.... and I don't mind if people are religious..I don't want to cut them down any but have those people stop coming after the rest of us
By not saying under god will religious people feel cheated? Religious people can still go to church and pray etc Its not like were tryin to stop religion. But for state and church speration to be true it would have to take it out again I say I couldn't care wut happens
However if u think all those stories in your religion are true u are fooling yourself the idea of a God is to give people answers to things we can't ,give laws based on some persons values and to give people hope. Which is how u make an army of robots.

I am not bitter about any of it really. Just like to get my idea out their.

Yeah I don't hold back I am ficious lol

I don't complain.. and I do remian seated. If speakin what I feel is complaining then everyone is complaining. And wuts wrong with complaining.. without it we would all still be in caves. Cuz would be the guy saying don't complain! were fine here in a cave. thats like saying don't complain to a slave.And yes I know wut it stands for. But I don't see how I can be proud of a nation that attacks a country for no good reason.

[2kitties]

Originally posted by ziron
However if u think all those stories in your religion are true u are fooling yourself the idea of a God is to give people answers to things we can't ,give laws based on some persons values and to give people hope. Which is how u make an army of robots.
Interestingly, the rest of us have managed to make arguments for and against this issue without belittling anyone's beliefs. It isn't your place or anyone else's to make statements like this. Arguements should stand on their own merit and not need hatefulness.

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by mugsy
I certainly didn't see teen pregnancy like it is now....in 1990, I had 3 EIGHTH graders who were pregnant in one year....when I was in school....I knew 2 the entire time I was in high school....



I was out of school for 3 years before I even SAW a pregnant woman!!!

-----------------------------

One problem with 'freedom of speech' is that instead of bucking up and accepting things that won't hurt us as 'part of life', We encourage everyone around us to whine, sue and go ballistic.

There are quite a few things I do not like on the planet. They sure as heck won't kill me and as long as they don't hit me in the head or REALLY impact my quality of life, I can live with them.


Pledges with "god" in them and dollar bills with "god' on them don't impact me in the least..

I get the same three tacos for a dollar, Trusting god or not. And I get the same feeling pledging my allegiance, under, above, or without god.

Sticks and stones will break my bones,
But what does it say about me when I freak out over the word 'god'??;)

[ziron]

religious beliefs are pushed on me each day so to belittle them is no good? 1 way ticket I see

[RICHARD]

Originally posted by ziron
religious beliefs are pushed on me each day so to belittle them is no good? 1 way ticket I see

belittle, be big, be good, be bad.....

just be open!

:D

[Edwina's Secretary]

I went to school in the "good old days" when the Christmas Pagent had a nativity etc. I was raised Catholic in a town where that was NOT common and certainly NOT on the east side of town. I know what it felt like to have my religion made fun of and belittled by the majority and it was very uncomfortable. The six, or seven, or eight year old child who would risk ridicule by being different is a strong and rare child indeed.

It is a myth that the United States was founded as a Christian nation. Thomas Jefferson, for example usually considered himself a Deist. Nor was "majority rules" the guiding principle. As we all know our current president was not elected by a majority of the voters...even putting aside the Florida fiasco. The electoral college elects the president -- not the majority of the voters. Laws are passed by congress -- not a majority of voters. And none of this is about the majority of the citizens -- merely the majority of voters (which was a quite restricted group when the country started!)

And to extend one of the arguments made...."under God" was added in 1954. Shouldn't teenage pregnancy, violence, etc, have gone DOWN after adding this prayer to public schools? Should we make the argument that adding "Under God" to the pledge has been the cause of problems in school?

[Pam]

Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary

And to extend one of the arguments made...."under God" was added in 1954. Shouldn't teenage pregnancy, violence, etc, have gone DOWN after adding this prayer to public schools? Should we make the argument that adding "Under God" to the pledge has been the cause of problems in school?

Of course not. If adding two words to anything would make a positive impact on some of the problems we face I am sure everyone would be in favor of it.

What I am trying to say is that there has been a slow turning away from anything remotely concerning God in this country over the past 50 years. If people can't see this their heads are buried in the sand.

Of course eliminating two words in the Pledge or prohibiting 'prayer in the schools' are not the whole story. They are merely indicators of the way the mindset of the masses is moving. The breakdown of the family has been mentioned and that is a 'no brainer.' There was a time when families spent more time together, ate meals at the same time, worshipped together, etc., etc. It is a complex matter at best, no doubt in part financial.

I felt a strong need to put in my two cents as the situation in the schools impacted me and my pocketbook, all because a few individuals felt these two words, and God in general, were somehow rocking their boat. :rolleyes:

I won't respond any more to this thread. I am "unsubscribing" to it at this point. In case anyone might be interested the majority (oh there's that word again) of Americans would like the words "under God" to remain. I think the last poll I saw was around 70%. Geesh, if they don't want to say it they don't have to (we call that freedom). Much the same as I use the remote to switch channels when a program is not appealing to me.

It's been a good discussion with very little insults and I am glad, but for now I am outta here! ;)
P.S. Sara, I went to a school which was 95% Jewish (I am not). We were shut down on Jewish holidays. The Bible reading I referred to earlier was from the Old Testament. We shared Holiday expressions (Christmas trees, Menorahs, etc.) We learned a lot from each other and still managed to keep God in.

[Amber]

My opionion is to keep it. I believe in God. And If you don't then, just dont say 'under God' its as simple as that. Just dont go into a hassle of changing everything that we are already used too.
Like our money. You know how hard that would take to change it all?

[2kitties]

Amber, what if the pledge read Under Muhammad. Would your arguement still hold weight in your mind if the shoe was on the other foot?

[GoldenRetrLuver]

Originally posted by Amber
And If you don't then, just dont say 'under God' its as simple as that.

I agree.

[CathyBogart]

or "Under Goddess"

[Amber]

Originally posted by 2kitties
Amber, what if the pledge read Under Muhammad. Would your arguement still hold weight in your mind if the shoe was on the other foot?

I have no clue what that means. But I am just going to stick to my opinion, k?

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by 2kitties
Amber, what if the pledge read Under Muhammad. Would your arguement still hold weight in your mind if the shoe was on the other foot?

I don't see how that makes any sense at all. That's like saying Under Noah..........same thing. Both prophets. Prophets were men sent by God with His message for mankind, but, they are *not* God, nor equal to Him. I believe Muhammad is a Prophet sent by God, but even then, I would object to the pledge saying under Muhammad, or under Moses, or under any other prophet. Yes prophets were great noble men, but they do not equate to God. They were people. They do not compare with God, and cannot be held as high as God either, so comparing a prophet to God in the issue of a pledge sounds plain silly to me.

:confused:

[lizbud]

Originally posted by Amber
I have no clue what that means. But I am just going to stick to my opinion, k?



Amber,

Are you related to our President George W. Bush ? LOL.

Just asking, :D :D

[CamCamPup33]

Originally posted by Amber
I have no clue what that means. But I am just going to stick to my opinion, k?

LOL! :p

[Amber]

Hahahaha! gosh, I hope not!


lol :p :p

[2kitties]

Pops, my mistake. I realize the Muhammad is a prophet. What is God called in Islam? Allah? You'll have to educate me. But the point stays the same and I think you understood my point, Pops.

Amber, I will explain for you what I mean. If the pledge referred to a religion that is not your own, would you still feel the same way? That is what I'm trying to say.

[Cataholic]

I want to enact a law that FINES the person, automatically (as who could monitor it?) everytime this person says, "OMG", "GD* it", or "go to H***", etc....he he he...

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by 2kitties
Pops, my mistake. I realize the Muhammad is a prophet. What is God called in Islam? Allah? You'll have to educate me. But the point stays the same and I think you understood my point, Pops.

Amber, I will explain for you what I mean. If the pledge referred to a religion that is not your own, would you still feel the same way? That is what I'm trying to say.

Yeah we call God *Allah*, but that is just the Arabic word for *God*. Talk to an Arab Christian........they call God *Allah* too. :p

I did understand your point, but I pointed it out because you can't compare a prophet to God, and a nation can't be *under* a prophet........know what I mean? :p

Johanna.......you just made me laugh. Why? Because that just reminded me of so many Atheists that are constantly saying *OMG*, *GD it*, and *go to H***...............why do they say *God* in those phrases, when they don't believe in God? If they have a problem saying *God* in the pledge, then they should have a problem using those phrases too. He he.

[Logan]

Excellent point, PCB!!!! :)

[Kfamr]

We pledge the allegiance TO THE FLAG... of the United States of America.

Not to the religions of the United States. We're pledging to our flag, not to God. So, why is he/she/whatever incoorperated?


With that said, I don't believe in "God", and have no problem with those who do (as long as they don't force their beliefs on me.) I wouldn't call myself Atheist, I wouldn't call myself anything. I just don't believe in a god nor do I have a different opinion of those who do. I've said MANY prayers before dinnertime with family, and friends of the family, since I can remember.


No "atheist" unfortunately would be able to survive if they denied money. No one in this world can survive without it. And more than likey I wouldn't have half of the stuff I do if I didn't accept it.


To me, it's merely words on a piece of paper.

The pledge though, I don't care whether it says "under God", I see it as pledging our flag (as it states) I see it as pledging our country. Which, it would make sense to change the words or take them out completely since not everyone in our country believes in god, and certainly not everyone lives under god. Maybe Freedom would be a better choice of words. Our flag stands for freedom, our country stands for freedom, and the pledge stands for our country.

[lizbud]

Kfamr,

BRAVO, BRAVO.....Excellent post. :)

[Edwina's Secretary]

want to enact a law that FINES the person, automatically (as who could monitor it?) everytime this person says, "OMG", "GD* it", or "go to H***", etc....he he he...

Being a bit literal aren't we...;) Just because I call someone an SOB or suggest they perform an act on themselves that would be difficult if not impossible (not that I say either of those things of course...;) ) doesn't really mean I think they were born of a dog or are extremely agile and flexible!:D :)

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by popcornbird
Johanna.......you just made me laugh. Why? Because that just reminded me of so many Atheists that are constantly saying *OMG*, *GD it*, and *go to H***...............why do they say *God* in those phrases, when they don't believe in God? If they have a problem saying *God* in the pledge, then they should have a problem using those phrases too. He he.

Actually, when I'm really exasperated I tend so sigh and say "oh Goddess..." ^_^

[Kfamr]

I say "Oh Geez"
or "Oh My Gee"
or "G'D--- it"

Which, I don't know what Gosh, Gee, or G' stand for... but they're just phrases to me.

[ramanth]

Originally posted by lizbud
Kfamr,

BRAVO, BRAVO.....Excellent post. :)
Ditto. :) Ya said everything I feel kiddo. :D

I pledge allegiance to the flag
of the United States of America
and to the Republic for which it stands
One Nation
Under FREEDOM
Indevisable
With Liberty and Justice
For All.

Ohhh.. I love it. That's what I'll say instead of omitting it. :)

[Amber]

Right Kay. We are saying it to the flag, and not religion.

good point!



I usually say Gosh, because we shouldnt use God's name in vain.