Should This Soldier Be Charged ?

[lizbud]

I read this CNN report and was very shocked to hear that the
U.S. Army would even consider ANY charges against this young
soldier. He still faces dereliction of duty charges. This seems
very wrong to me. What do you think?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/11/06/sprj.irq.cowardice/index.html

[2kitties]

I think there is more to it than CNN is reporting. I rarely understand the ways the military chooses to govern itself. But my father was military and Chris was military. So, I've come to see through their eyes that civilians aren't meant to understand their ways.
Sounds strange, I know, but we civilians aren't always privvy to what's going on in there. Training soldiers to value order and their country over their very own lives is very tough and often requires a different kind of order.

[Logan]

I heard this discussed on Talk Radio this week, Liz. It is perplexing. Personally, I'm glad he asked for help, and I am glad he was willing to admit the issues he was dealing with. In the end, it might save his life and the lives of his fellow soldiers. I do hope he will be treated fairly. I have a great appreciation for what these men and women go through. I do not have the "stuff" these brave people are made of, for sure.

[moosmom]

It goes to show you that this young man is only human. Since he suffered from panic attacks, I believe they should honorably discharge him and get him the help he needs.

I suffer from depression and panic attacks. No one knows better than I what goes on with these dibilitating problems. When you have a panic attack, you freeze, hyperventilate and are incapacitated. Depression is a whole other issue which I won't go into.

So I believe this poor guy needs help. I'm sure after witnessing what he did he'll problably suffer from nighmares and PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder).

And you are probably right, I'm sure there IS more to the story.

[mugsy]

Well, I read the story, I shared it with Mike since he has been in the Army and was in intelligence and has been in Iraq.

Like 2kitties said...military life is a totally different world with a totally different set of rules than the "real" world.

So, that being said, I guess he should be charged with dereliction of duty. Military intelligence needs to be ready to face anything thing that comes down the pike and be able to handle it. Now, understand that CNN obviously did NOT give the whole story, so depending on what REALLY happened, I may change my mind.

He did save a lot of lives by being sent home. If you can't take the pressure you shouldn't be there, and honestly shouldn't be in the position that he was in.

I know I've said before that CNN skews its coverage of the war, so I smell more of a story than what is being reported. I think I'll go out and see if I can find a more moderate report of what happened. I will also then read Fox's report and formulate my opinion on the whole matter. Even Mike said that there was something missing in the story.

[babolaypo65]

As others have said, I'd like to hear the whole story. if he is, however, having true panic attacks, then I'd say a mental/emotional disability should be treated the same as a physical disability.

[Soledad]

I love the idea that CNN has skewered coverage, yet FOX is utterly reliable. Funny stuff!!

I hope this guy gets the help he needs, though.

[Karen]

I think she was implying that CNN's coverage is skewed in one way, and Fox's is skewed in another, so that by reading both - and other independent sources, she can get a clearer picture of the whole story.

[catland]

try google news. you can serch for this person's name, (or the word "cowardice") and find other sources of this story.

Some of the articles go into more details, and this helps to give a clearer picture. Also, you can find articles from other countries.

I also find it interesting to listen to the conservative opinion and the liberal opinion so that I can try to figure out the truth which is usually somewhere in the middle.

[Soledad]

I think it's good to get your news from a variety of sources, but I think a lot of people think if you slap the words "fair and balanced" you'll actually get fair and balanced. FOX, as a journalistic enterprise, has some pretty darn shady connections and practices on an editorial level that make me shudder. Editors should not be forcing their journalists to come up with the ending/moral of the story as they see fit. It's about getting as many answers and facts as you can and letting the viewers/readers come to their own conclusions. In this sense, FOX is about as corrupt as they come.

[mugsy]

Well, being that this thread is not about the news channels, I guess it really doesn't matter in this discussion.

Here is something I found on www.blah3.com (which from the titles and editorial comments, is pretty liberal). This is just one line from the article....but, here is a little more about what he is being charged with...

The Army says he is guilty of "cowardly conduct as a result of fear" and not performing his duties as an interrogator for a squad of Green Berets in Samarra, Iraq.


I'm continuing to look....

[Soledad]

I really admire the fact that you go hunting around for more info on stories that you're interested in, Mugsy. It's really something I wish more people would do, you know, actively seek out other views and sources.

It's a great example regardless of what political label you might wear. :)

[catland]

Originally posted by Soledad
... I think a lot of people think if you slap the words "fair and balanced" you'll actually get fair and balanced. FOX, as a journalistic enterprise, has some pretty darn shady connections and practices on an editorial level that make me shudder....

I agree.

Ultimately, its about the ratings and making money.

Now, back to this guy with the panic attacks - it will be an interesting story to follow.

[mugsy]

Ok, back to the matter at hand. Here is a story from the hated Fox News. I only posted this one because it was the longest one I could find with the most information. Oh and I found another site that was a message that this guy had sent asking about some other military policy. Honestly, he sounds like a HUGE whiner. I have suffered from bouts of severe depression and from panic attacks and anxiety, but would not have asked to be put in the position that this guy was put in. And I'm sorry, but, he is in the military, so he should know that he might go to a war zone and that in a war zone you will see horrific sights and be subjected to things that no human being should have to see. If he suffers from these things, why did he go into one of, if not THE, most stressful job there is? Just asking. Based on what I have read so far and I've read about 20 accounts now from various sites and I think he should be charge with dereliction of duty and be dishonorable discharged or dead minimum a discharge other than honorable. Ok, my novel ends with that!! lol

Here's the article.

Thursday, November 06, 2003

FORT CARSON, Colo. — The Army dismissed a cowardice charge and filed a lesser count against an Army interrogator who sought counseling after he saw the body of an Iraqi man cut in half by American fire.





Staff Sgt. Georg-Andreas Pogany was charged with dereliction of duty, according to a statement released Thursday afternoon by Fort Carson (search) officials. A military court hearing set Friday for Pogany was canceled.

The new charge was filed by the company commander after military judges dismissed the cowardice charge, officials said. "He believes that this charge is most appropriate to address the alleged misconduct based upon the evidence that is currently available," an Army statement said.

Army officials did not immediately return phone calls for comment. Neither did Pogany nor his attorney.

Attorney Frank Spinner, a retired Air Force colonel who handles military cases, said dereliction of duty is a minor offense that, if disposed of without a court-martial, usually is penalized by loss of pay or reduction in rank.

With a court-martial, the maximum penalty is several months confinement, said Spinner, of Colorado Springs (search). Whether a court-martial is held depends on the military judiciary.

After seeing the mangled corpse, Pogany says he began shaking and vomiting and feared for his life. Soon, Pogany says, he had trouble sleeping and started suffering what he thought were panic attacks.

Six weeks later, Pogany, 32, was charged with cowardice, a count that he said was filed after he sought counseling. Pogany denies that he acted in a cowardly way.

"What is tragic about this is the message being sent to other soldiers," Pogany said recently. "It's not about me."

Cowardice violations can be punished by death. Military code does not include a minimum sentence.

Army officials have declined to discuss the case.

Cowardice charges are rare. The last such conviction in the Army occurred during the Vietnam War. Charges were filed against a married couple during the Gulf War (search), but reduced to mistreatment of public property, said Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice.

"You have to look pretty hard to find any of these cases," Fidell said. "We have a well-trained army that is a motivated one."



Pogany's case and others that are similar suggest Iraqi deployments are wearing thin, said military analyst Dan Goure of the Lexington Institute, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank.

"I think what you are seeing here is a consequence of the changed character of an all-volunteer force," Goure said. "The strain gets worse when you have longer deployments or multiple deployments or changing deployments."

Assigned to the 10th Special Forces Group, Pogany was attached to a team of Green Berets on Sept. 26 when he departed for Iraq. He declined to discuss his responsibilities, citing security issues.

Three days later, he was standing in a U.S. compound near Samarra north of Baghdad when soldiers brought in the Iraqi man's bloody body. The soldiers told Pogany the man was killed after he was seen shooting a rocket-propelled grenade.

Pogany said he was shaken, couldn't focus and kept vomiting. He told his commanders he believed he was suffering from panic attacks or a nervous breakdown and requested counseling.

At least one officer suggested he consider what such a request would do to his career, Pogany said. When he sought help, "I was told that I was wasting their time," Pogany said.

Pogany was examined by psychologist Capt. Marc Houck, who concluded he had signs consistent with normal combat stress reaction. Houck recommended Pogany be given a brief rest before returning to duty, but he was sent home to Fort Carson in mid-October and charged with "cowardly conduct as a result of fear."

Pogany said he asked three times to be given time to adjust and complete the recommended treatment while in Iraq.

Pogany said he can offer a credible defense. "If the Army decides to go down the route of character assassination, I have plenty to show I have been a good soldier for five years," he said.

His attorney, Richard Travis, speculated that Pogany may have received more help if he had been assigned to another unit.

"All he wanted was some help dealing with the physical reaction he was having, including vomiting, shaking and inability to sleep," Travis said.

[lizbud]

Sounds like some people think the cowardice was the result
of panic attacks, not so. They, along with other physical symptoms
described in the article in the Blah link, were the result of seeing
what he saw. He was asking for help. What if he had just
freaked out & started shooting anything that moved. Would he
then be considered a brave but ill soldier?

Army Dismisses Soldier Cowardice Charge

Friday November 7, 2003 2:01 AM


By ROBERT WELLER

Associated Press Writer

FORT CARSON, Colo. (AP) - The Army dismissed a cowardice charge and filed a lesser count against an Army interrogator who sought counseling after he saw the body of an Iraqi man cut in half by American fire.

Staff Sgt. Georg-Andreas Pogany was charged with dereliction of duty, according to a statement released Thursday afternoon by Fort Carson officials. A military court hearing set Friday for Pogany was canceled.

The new charge was filed by the company commander after military judges dismissed the cowardice charge, officials said. ``He believes that this charge is most appropriate to address the alleged misconduct based upon the evidence that is currently available,'' an Army statement said.

Army officials did not immediately return phone calls for comment. Neither did Pogany nor his attorney.

Attorney Frank Spinner, a retired Air Force colonel who handles military cases, said dereliction of duty is a minor offense that, if disposed of without a court-martial, usually is penalized by loss of pay or reduction in rank.

With a court-martial, the maximum penalty is several months confinement, said Spinner, of Colorado Springs. Whether a court-martial is held depends on the military judiciary.

After seeing the mangled corpse, Pogany says he began shaking and vomiting and feared for his life. Soon, Pogany says, he had trouble sleeping and started suffering what he thought were panic attacks.

Six weeks later, Pogany, 32, was charged with cowardice, a count that he said was filed after he sought counseling. Pogany denies that he acted in a cowardly way.

``What is tragic about this is the message being sent to other soldiers,'' Pogany said recently. ``It's not about me.''

Cowardice violations can be punished by death. Military code does not include a minimum sentence.

Army officials have declined to discuss the case.

Cowardice charges are rare. The last such conviction in the Army occurred during the Vietnam War. Charges were filed against a married couple during the Gulf War, but reduced to mistreatment of public property, said Eugene Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice.

``You have to look pretty hard to find any of these cases,'' Fidell said. ``We have a well-trained army that is a motivated one.''

Pogany's case and others that are similar suggest Iraqi deployments are wearing thin, said military analyst Dan Goure of the Lexington Institute, a Washington, D.C.-based think tank.

``I think what you are seeing here is a consequence of the changed character of an all-volunteer force,'' Goure said. ``The strain gets worse when you have longer deployments or multiple deployments or changing deployments.''

Assigned to the 10th Special Forces Group, Pogany was attached to a team of Green Berets on Sept. 26 when he departed for Iraq. He declined to discuss his responsibilities, citing security issues.

Three days later, he was standing in a U.S. compound near Samarra north of Baghdad when soldiers brought in the Iraqi man's bloody body. The soldiers told Pogany the man was killed after he was seen shooting a rocket-propelled grenade.

Pogany said he was shaken, couldn't focus and kept vomiting. He told his commanders he believed he was suffering from panic attacks or a nervous breakdown and requested counseling.

At least one officer suggested he consider what such a request would do to his career, Pogany said. When he sought help, ``I was told that I was wasting their time,'' Pogany said.

Pogany was examined by psychologist Capt. Marc Houck, who concluded he had signs consistent with normal combat stress reaction. Houck recommended Pogany be given a brief rest before returning to duty, but he was sent home to Fort Carson in mid-October and charged with ``cowardly conduct as a result of fear.''

Pogany said he asked three times to be given time to adjust and complete the recommended treatment while in Iraq.

Pogany said he can offer a credible defense. ``If the Army decides to go down the route of character assassination, I have plenty to show I have been a good soldier for five years,'' he said.

His attorney, Richard Travis, speculated that Pogany may have received more help if he had been assigned to another unit.

``All he wanted was some help dealing with the physical reaction he was having, including vomiting, shaking and inability to sleep,'' Travis said.

[mugsy]

Originally posted by lizbud
What if he had just
freaked out & started shooting anything that moved. Would he
then be considered a brave but ill soldier?



Well, I don't know, but, I would say, "no" Liz. I think he would charged then too. However, he was supposed to be an interrogator. He never should have been allowed to go over there in the first place, but, like I said before, I don't think he should have been in the military. Also, when I said in my original post, that he saved a lot of lives when he came home, I meant on both sides!

[Tonya]

On one hand, it is really important that our soldiers are brave and reliable. But on the other hand, how do you know how you are going to react to death until it is right before you? I think his mental disability should be treated just like a physical disability. It is to bad that he could not handle it, but that is just a fact of life. I couldn't do it.

[mugsy]

Tonya, I don't think the military has a problem with it being treated as a physical disability. I am guessing that they just want him out of the military because of what he did because of this disability.

Being civilians, we just don't understand how the military works and why they do the things they do. I don't agree with some of what the military does, but, they have a reason for doing what they do, which is why most people couldn't handle it, although, there are a few of my students I wouldn't mind sending to boot camp so they can find out that there are people out there tougher than they are! :)

[Tonya]

I agree that they should take him out. That is a potential danger keeping him in. I just don't think he should be treated like a criminal. Just a simple medical discharge should do.

[lizbud]

Here's the story as carried in Stars & Stripes. America's
military newspaper read by all the troops. Sounds like his
superiors did have a problem with seeing him as needing
medical attention.



Friday, November 7, 2003


U.S. soldier charged with cowardice


Stars and Stripes
European edition, Friday, October 31, 2003


A soldier with Fort Carson’s 10th Special Forces Group has been charged with cowardice for allegedly refusing to do his duty in Iraq, according to a Thursday report in the Colorado Springs (Colo.) Gazette.

Special Forces interrogator Staff Sgt. Georg Porgany’s charge sheet says he showed “cowardly conduct as a result of fear, in that he refused to perform his duties,” according to the report.

If convicted in a court-martial, the soldier faces prison time and a dishonorable discharge. He was charged Oct. 14. His first court appearance is Nov. 7 at Fort Carson.

A cowardice charge is extremely rare, military law experts told the Gazette. Army officials couldn’t say Wednesday the last time it had been filed.

Porgany, 32, said he is wrongly charged.

The soldier said he experienced a “panic attack” after seeing the mangled body of an Iraqi man and told his superior he was heading for a “nervous breakdown.”

After that, Porgany said he didn’t request to go on missions nor did the unit ask him to go. He told the Gazette that he asked for help but was denied the care soldiers with “combat stress” are supposed to receive.

Instead of help, Porgany said, one of his superiors told him to “get his head out of his ass and get with the program.”

Army officials declined the Gazette’s requests to talk about the case.

Porgany’s unit was working on Sept. 29 out of Samarra, north of Baghdad, when Porgany saw the body of an Iraqi man brought into the Army compound.

Porgany had never seen anything like that. Shortly after, he said, he began shaking, couldn’t focus and kept throwing up his food.


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[RICHARD]

Originally posted by Soledad
I think it's good to get your news from a variety of sources, but I think a lot of people think if you slap the words "fair and balanced"

the only time 'fair and balanced' should go together is when
you see a tightrope walker on a real nice day.

I watch the shows with the best looking anchorwomen.

THEY tell the truth.


I have seen the stories and read about them and still wouldn't know what the guy was thinking or the circumstances.

best bet?

read the transcripts after the tribunal and then, just maybe, we'll get a sense of the day, the stress and what may have happened.

A military court charges you and you must prove your innocence (i may be wrong on that .......) so KNOWING the cowardice charge has been dropped makes me think that lawyers looked at the UCMJ and thought better of it..

the thing that bothers me about the whole media is that they WON"T drop the cowardice charges in their reports...they'll always tease it as a such, facts be DAMNED....

Another bonus 'best bet'-

I used to say, ' I'll only believe it when I see it in writing..'

lol........

Now i watch CNN over the weekend, you know, when they play the same tape over and over and over again......by sunday afternoon I feel like THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE.....


Just like my TV, I'm programmed and ready to rock!!!

[Lady's Human]

IF the accounts are accurate, the soldier in question was suffering from normal combat fatigue, however, this soldier wasn't in a normal unit, he was with an SF unit. They are very hard nosed and need to be able to rely on each other in rough spots with no outside support, therefore standards of conduct are much higher than in a normal military unit. The individual in question needs to be out of where he is in the military, but you just can't transfer jobs. Patterns of behavior have to be established, psychiatric evals, med review boards have to be done, etc. If he gets an article 15 for dereliction of duty (Civilian equivalent of a misdemeanor charge) he will be reduced in rank, and the article 15 will establish the pattern of behavior needed to remove him from the unit. Not the way I'd want to get out, but as I said, you can't just say you want to transfer, esp when you're with a SF group.
BTW, in a military court, you are innocent until proven guilty, however, when brought in for court martial you will normally be found guilty of something. Courts martial are reserved for conduct and punishments above and beyond normal minor problems. The civilian equivalent would be a grand jury investigation.

[mugsy]

Thank you for the explanation. That enlightened me. It's nice to be able to hear it from a military person's perspective.

Btw....welcome to Pet Talk Lady's Human, but why is she lonely?

[lizbud]

Molly, he answered that in the Thread about destruction
of chemical weapons back in August,2003. Remember? :D

btw, how's the doggie & the human pup getting along by now?
Nice to hear from you again.

[lizbud]

I read this the other day. Another soldier, another case, but
still, why do these commanders seem to insist on some kind of
punishment instead of granting leave on compassionate grounds?



Army gives AWOL mom a break

Associated Press


FORT CARSON, Colo. -- A soldier who stayed home with her children during a custody battle instead of returning to Iraq was reassigned to Fort Carson, but also received a conflicting message -- that she could face administrative punishment.

Spc. Simone Holcomb, a medic in the Colorado National Guard, was reassigned Monday to Fort Carson to give her time to find care for her children or get out of the Army, post spokesman Lt. Col. Tom Budzyna said.

"She's been reassigned to Fort Carson for compassionate reasons and she's in the process of being demobilized from active duty status to National Guard status," Budzyna said late Monday.

However, Holcomb's commander called her earlier Monday from Iraq to tell her he was pursuing an administrative punishment against her, said Holcomb's lawyer, Giorgio Ra'Shadd. It was not clear what the punishment would be.

"They didn't give a reason. A commander in the field doesn't really have to give a reason," Ra'Shadd told Fox News.

Holcomb, 30, and her husband, Sgt. 1st Class Vaughn Holcomb, 40, were living with their children at Fort Carson near Colorado Springs when both were sent to Iraq in February.

Family members were taking care of their seven children, but the couple returned on emergency leave in September when Vaughn Holcomb's ex-wife went to court seeking full custody of two of the children from their previous marriage.

Simone Holcomb told a judge she would stay home with the children and refused an Army order to return to Iraq.

Her reassignment to Fort Carson was backdated to Oct. 10, the day she was due back in Iraq, which means she couldn't be charged with being absent without leave, Budzyna said.

Ra'Shadd and Budzyna said they were trying to sort out the conflicting messages.

"Common sense is going to prevail in this matter. We are going to take care of the soldier," Budzyna said.

Simone Holcomb referred questions to Ra'Shadd. He did not return a call seeking comment late Monday or Tuesday.

[mugsy]

Originally posted by lizbud
Molly, he answered that in the Thread about destruction
of chemical weapons back in August,2003. Remember? :D



Boy Liz, you want me to remember THAT far back??? lol I think that was a time when I wasn't posting either.

[Lady's Human]

Lady and the "other puppy" (my daughter) are starting to figure things out, helped by generous handouts from the non-fuzzy puppy...LOL. Lady's a lonely pup because dad is deployed to FT drum (and just got extended for another year robably)

[lizbud]

Sorry about your extended stay. Military families often pay a very high price in the name of service to our country. Do you
think you could post a few pics of your fuzzy family member Lady
or the non-fuzzy pup? :D How old is Lady? What breed, etc?
Kind of looks like a GSD in the small pic, but can't really tell.

[Lady's Human]

Lady is a half dal half lab mutt, only roblem for my wife right now is that she has the energy of a dal and the intelligence of a lab. She's a very high maintenance dog (LOTS of play time, etc. ) We adopted her from a shelter (Anyone in mass check out dogorphans.com, three very good family pets came from that shelter) but we don't think that the shelter got the whole story on why she was put up for adoption, as she's very shy around little children. The stated reason was an allergy problem with a baby, but due to the way she acts around Marilyn-Jean (2 years old) we think the kids in the home may have abused her a little while she was a pup.

[Lady's Human]

oops, missed the pic of the non fuzzy pup:)

Also, Lady is Four now, we got her before we had Marylin-Jean.

[lizbud]

Lady is adorable.:) Kind of reminds me of my Smokey.Same
brown eyes, floppy ears & hugable face.:)

Your daughter, Marilyn-Jean , is a real doll baby. Thanks for
sharing your pics. Maybe you should post some over in the Dog
side of Pet Talk. Everyone loves pics.:D

[mugsy]

What a beauty. Looks like Amy's Sadie. Sorry about the extension. That would really suck.