Something to think about (no heated discussions, please)

[jenluckenbach]

Everyone KNOWS how you feel about declawing, but I want to ask you THIS:
Would you automatically deny someone adoption of a homeless cat SIMPLY because they might declaw it?
Now don't say YES without hearing the rest.
I am going to site an example. This is about a person I have known for 20 years. She is a great pet owner. She has worked as a vet tech/receptionist for over 20 years and knows all the procedures and outcomes. She has worked in rescue and has seen all the heartache. She has owned many cats as well as dogs, sometimes 20 at a time. She makes sure her pets have the best of everything...........and YES she declaws. Is she a bad person? Should she be rejected her next kitty based on this fact alone?

Now I repeat, we do not need any heated discussion here, I just want you all to think about the bottom line:

Is that cat better off DEAD at a over crowded shelter or along a roadside than it would be alive and well in someone's home but missing it's front (toes) claws?

And don't be so quick to say "but there are no-kill shelters out there". YES< but if they can't adopt out a kitty then another kitty can't move into the system.

I just happen to think there is a little room for compromise, sometimes.

By the way, if this gets moved to the dog house, I understand.

[PayItForward]

Why doesn't the lady adopt an already declawed cat. I hear on these boards that many cats are turned into the shelters declawed.

But No, I can not condon placing ANY cat with an owner who wouldn't try to train the cat, but would automatically put the cat though an unnecessary painful pointless operation.

Can't you educate her in what declawing actually means etc. Even if you didn't give her a kitten, she could get one from somewhere else and declaw that poor cat.

I really believe education is the ONLY way to stop people from declawing their pets.

[Maresche]

Jen,

In my opinion declawing is a horrendous thing to do to a cat. In 97% of the cases where it is done, it is completely unnecessary. However, in the situtation that you describe I feel it might be okay. If everything else goes well for this kitten, the declawing is done by a truly caring and knowledgable vet and the kitten has a caring and knowledgable person overseeing it's recovery who will keep it inside, loved and cared for the rest of the kitten's days, I feel the declawing would be a better option than death.

Maresche (mom of 1 declawed and 2 "clawed" kitties)

[K & L]

No, I wouldn't deny adoption as long as these people keep the cat indoors only. We have neighbors that declawed their cat and let it outside. This part of it scares me. I know people that declaw their cats and they have WONDERFUL homes, they're not hurting, they're indoors, and get so much love. I think this is way better than the alternative. Just my opinion. Now the cat organization we volunteer with will NOT adopt a cat to those that declaw.

[wolflady]

This is the very point my vet made the first day I was there at work. His view is that he'd rather declaw the cat than euthanize it or have it wind up in a shelter. If it's the only way to save a cat's life, then that's the reason to do it.
I can understand his view, and I don't think people are bad if they declaw their pets. My mom knows where I stand on the issue, but she has declawed cats. Good people everywhere have them in their homes. However, I think educating potential and current cat owners about it and about alternatives is always the best way to go. Where I work, if the client wants a cat declawed, that's what they get. They don't get any advice about it, so that's what upsets me. If people want cats, then why can't they try and make an effort to train them to scratch appropriately? If they have tried everything and the cat is really bad then maybe that would warrant the cruel procedure rather than having the cat dumped. I do believe alternatives should be tried first, because why wouldn't an owner want what's best for their pet? Otherwise, why get one? Or, go to a shelter and adopt an already declawed cat. I see plenty in the shelter where I volunteer...
BTW, I am one of the lucky few that have a cat with behavioral problems as a result of the declaw procedure. :(

[Edwina's Secretary]

A friend of mine was chairman of the board of the local humane society and cat owner. Although by far the preference is NOT to declaw....she believes it is better than the alternative.

Some cats are too old -- or too stubborn when they are adopted to "untrain" or "retrain."

I do not believe that declawing -- in and of itself -- affects a cat's behavior or disposition. I have seen horrid clawed cats and unclawed cats. And visa versa.

I do NOT understand EVER removing the back claws.

[nodgeness]

W/out a doubt your friend should have that kitty! I'm for declawing over death or stuck in a cage @ a humane society.
K&L, I can't believe someone would declaw their kitties and let them outside! Both of mine are declawed & are NOT allowed outside.

[catland]

A happy life in a home with people that take care of you or living in a cage or worse, being euthanized?

Then I can allow de-clawing. But we can still work on educating people on alternatives - I think education is more powerful than legislation.

We used to have a de-clawed cat and she lived to be 17 years old and had a great life.

btw-our cats right now are not de-clawed.

[Pam]

I have posted this before but it was a long time ago. Trevor and Andy are both declawed. Trevor was my first cat and I was totally 'cat ignorant.' My friends who had cats at the time I got him all had declawed cats. I assumed it was "the norm." I am fortunate that I have never had any behavior problems with either of them. In fact they have been really good, sweet kitties their whole lives.

I do believe that declawing a cat is better than the alternative - being put down at a shelter. There are just too many cats and not enough homes. If that is the only way they will find their forever homes I can't see why not allowing it. My two have certainly been loved and spoiled for years in spite of what I did to them. That said, I would not declaw again. As I said, I was ignorant at the time. I really have some concerns about declawing an older cat though. A kitty that has had his claws for years and years and then suddenly doesn't have them must certainly go through unbelievable adjustment problems and therein might come some of the bad behaviors that are reported.

I feel badly about what I did but there is no use crying over spilled milk. If informing a potential adopter about training methods, soft claws, etc. doesn't change their mind, I would still prefer to see a kitty go to that home rather than be put down. I really think tolerance is the key here. People who declaw aren't monsters. Mostly they are uninformed. (my two cents)

[Russian Blue]

Of course with our pet overpopulation crisis, people will say a cat without their claws in a home is better than a dead cat with their claws. But I don't buy that, when options are available and it's 9 times out of 10 the the human owners that make the procedure necessary. Because we don't want to take the time to educate ourselves or train, off go the nails.

If I was trying to find owners to adopt my cats, I would try to exhaust all avenues before giving to a person who will automatically declaw a cat. Then, if no other option is available, I would give that cat to that person and hope to h!ll that cat does not end up on the street or problems from the declaw procedure.

[2kitties]

IMO, it's better than the alternative, definitly. But, must be inside. Also, there is a new laser procedure that is supposedly much less painful for the cats. Not an ideal, but again, better than the shelter.

[catlady1945]

No, I would not deny someone like that adoption.

[Cataholic]

Like Pam, I am a reformer. All six of my kitties are declawed- all at my doing. All six of my kitties have lives better than many people (course, they deserve it, too). I would not declaw any future kitties I might acquire.

I don't know, Jen, the 'real' answer. I think a 'good' life is better than no life, but, I sometimes can't stomach what I did to my cats. Like Pam said, no use crying over spilt milk.

[Logan]

I need to start this by saying I have never declawed a cat. But in the opinion of others, I have done much worse. My cats go outside on a regular basis, by their own choice.

So who am I to say that declawing is a terrible thing. One of my best friends has just stated that she did it, and her cats are fine. My sister did it, and both of hers are fine too. I didn't do it, and both of mine are fine as well.

Jen, I think people have to make informed decisions and be offered alternatives. If they can train their cats to claw in specified locations, good for them!! And I hope that all would try that method first. But as my vet told me recently, he doesn't like declawing, but prefers it to people sending their animals to animal control or throwing them outside to fend for themselves. He brought me a whole new perspective on the subject.

Logan

[rg_girlca]

If I may Jen, just one question, if you could answer for me.
Since your friend is a vet tech/receptionist, she obviously is aware of the horrendous pain that a kitty goes through with declawing. Why is she so quick to have them delawed? From what I read that you posted, it's like it's not an option with her, she just automatically has them declawed. Is it cause she has so many of them that she doesn't have the time to train them not to claw the furniture? Oops sorry, that's 2 questions. I'm just curious as to why she is so quick to have them delawed.

As others have said, a good life is better than no life and it doesn't make your friend a bad person.

[jenluckenbach]

My friend, at this time has 4 cats and 2 dogs and is NOT looking to adopt. I used her because to me she would be the PERFECT home and I am sure there are MANY, MANY more like her.
Now, as for the declaw question. She tells me that she feels in fairness to her dogs' safety she prefers the cats to not have front claws. I take her at her word and I do not question her because she is a friend and it is her decision.
I too declawed my first cat. Mostly out of ignorance, believing it to be OK, but never did it again after that.
My biggest point is these organizations who are so rigid in their beliefs sometimes don't give the best people a chance.
We actually have a sheler here near us that WILL NOT ADOPT a dog out to a home without a fenced in yard. How's THAT for strict?!?

As you asked Jen, I have been thinking about this case, and not judged immediately. But, no, I cannot agree with de-clawing, in absolutely NO case on earth. A cat is born with 4 claws, and trying to remove those claws is a horrible and painfull thing to do. If that lady cannot accept a cat with claws, then maybe she needs another pet.
Sorry if I sounded rather negative, but I just HAD TO express my feelings about this matter ....

[Kirsten]

Tough question...

First of all, I have to say that declawing is an illegal procedure in Germany and no vet here would do that. And I don't see any reasons why it should be done to a cat, it's painful and cruel, and it's an amputation.

But the question was "should a cat rather die in a killing shelter than being declawed?" Then, of course, my answer would be "no".

But I would really like people to reconsider and think about the necessity of declawing. When a cat has a scratching post, it usually don't scratch on the walls and furnitures, and you can train your cats to get their claws trimmed (which I'm doing with my cats it workes very well).

Kirsten

[cubby31682]

My cat had to be declawed in order for me to keep him. When I got my cat the rule was (I live in an apartment) that the cat must be declawed or you and your cat will have to leave. He had no other place to go but to me. I didn't want to see him be put to sleep in a shelter. Most people wouldn't want to take him due to his poor attitude. He isn't kid friendly he isn't people friendly unless you really work with him. I am in favor of declawing instead of them being put to death. I know Cubby would have been put to sleep, so I had to make my decision. And I still and always will agree with the decision I made. I have said millions of times. When hubby and I buy a house I will not declaw but under the rules of the apartment complex I had no other choice. (And yes I did ask them about soft claws and they told me it was more inhumane which of course I called B.S. on but they wouldn't let me use those instead.)

Sorry I keep repeating my self.

Katie

[nodgeness]

Jen now I have a question for you..... You said your friend has her cats declawed to protect the dogs. Well my question is (because I was thinking about getting a dog) how could a cat that doesn't have front claws protect themselves against the dog? I ask caust that's one reason I've put off adopting an dog.

[jenluckenbach]

Originally posted by nodgeness
Jen now I have a question for you..... You said your friend has her cats declawed to protect the dogs. Well my question is (because I was thinking about getting a dog) how could a cat that doesn't have front claws protect themselves against the dog? I ask caust that's one reason I've put off adopting an dog.
I don't know, it's not my rule. I believe my friend is thinking more of the accidental scratching of the face or eyes of the dog, but I do not really know the answer to that.

[Pickle]

In the UK de-clawing is considered inhumane and cruel. British vets will not de-claw any cat except in cases of extreme medical necessity.
In this country the question of what to do about someone who refused to take a cat from a shelter unless it was first de-clawed would not arise.

Before I adopted my cat a colleauge with three cats of her own asked me if I cared about my sofa? If I did, she said, don't get the cat.

My little fur-monster occasionally likes to go in to the garden (provided it's not wet, cold, windy...you get the picture!) so I wouldn't dream of removing her primary defence mechanisms.

Here's my thought, cats are wonderful creatures. If removing the end bone of the cats toes is the only way a person would consider adopting - then a cat really isn't suited to their lifestyle and I'd have to wonder what other cat foibles the new owner would eventually find impractical.

My house is now covered in fur, half the time so am I! I am on the lookout for spit-up fur balls and bits of re-constitued half chewed grass around the house at all times.
Whenever guests come she chooses that moment to use the litter tray. She's loud as a fog horn. She takes up more of my bed than I do. She choses 3am to bat plastic balls around. Sometimes when we play with a shoelace she scratches me by accident (if she does she curles her paws under her chest and won't play anymore - cute!). If I pick her up I get a set of little claw marks in my arm.

She's a cat; she's beautful and I love her as she is, claws and all.

[bisi.cat]

There's one simple thing I can't understand:
Why are people all across Europe able to handle cats with claws...while some cats in America (and it seems there are a lot of them nowadays) are declawed?!

Can anyone explain?!

I have to agree with lut here...this is something I can't understand...

[K & L]

Doesn't this all go in the same category as docking dogs ears & tails? Why is this done?

[jenluckenbach]

Why are people all across Europe able to handle cats with claws...while some cats in America (and it seems there are a lot of them nowadays) are declawed?!
as long as it is legal, Americans will have this discussion. when the day comes that it is banned, then we can ALL start thinking of declawing in the same way the Europeans (etc.) have been thinking about it for a long while.....as wrong. But people have the choice and they might choose to exercise their "right". even if it is wrong.
I'd like to see it banned.
I'd like no one to even HAVE the choice.
But until then, how can we not allow an otherwise good person to adopt a family pet?

[Pam]

Keeping with the theme and original question of this thread, I wonder, if it became illegal to declaw, if the death rate of kitties in shelters would go up substantially or if people would then make the effort to train their cats to posts, etc. We have no way of knowing I guess until that would occur.

Logan brought up an interesting point about indoor/outdoor cats. I think most people in the US do keep their kitties inside. It is mostly in the rural areas where one might see a cat freely roaming. Maybe the two things are linked? More declawed cats? More inside cats? I wonder what the statistics are on this. Freckles where are you? :D (I tease her that she is Pet Talk's official statistician!)

[Karen]

My first dog had a very strong prey drive. She also had a nose that had been scratched by so many cats (and other wildlife) defending themselves that it looked like a checkerboard. Those cats' claws undoubtedly saved their lives. Most dogs, by the way, only get swiped by a cat once before learning those things HURT! All the cats I knew growing up were indoor/outdoor cats. I had never even HEARD of declawing a cat 'til I was an adult.

I would be hard-pressed to make that decision, and would only give a cat to a person who would de-claw it after I sat that person down and we had a long talk.

[luckies4me]

Having seen so many declaws done, I would never perform the procedure unless it was done to benifit the cat, such as an infected toenail on a polydactal cat being removed.

All the cats I had to care for after their surgery were always in so much pain, and often times bleeding from the incision site. The old vet at our practice (BTW I went back to work everyone, lol :p) did "botched" declaws, and the claws were actually growing back. Our price sheet actually has a price for re-declaws.
:( :eek:


I always have clients call up and want to declaw right away. I always try my best to persuade them to not declaw. These people are morons. I ask if they have a scratching post, and they say NO! I ask if they try to train the cat to not scratch and they say they do not have the time etc. These people in my opinion should not own cats.

If all else fails, I at least try to get them to skip the declaw and opt for a tendenectomy instead. This procedure leaves the digits but cuts the tendon, not allowing the cat to retract their claws. Usually declaw cats have to stay overnight, but this procedure allows the cat to go home that day, avoid bandages and not experience so much pain. I always feel so happy when I talk someone out of declawing! :)


But if the choice was to declaw or euthanize, I would declaw the cat!

[Tonya]

Doesn't this all go in the same category as docking dogs ears & tails? Why is this done?

EXCELLENT POINT!

A declawed cat is much better then a homeless or dead cat.

Every vet needs to educate the pet owners. Every pet owner needs to know exactly what they are doing and what their options are.

I have adopted a declawed cat and she is perfectly fine. My cats growing up were always declawed, they were fine.

So I guess this all says I'm 50/50 on the declawing debate.

[Fox-Gal]

I'm sorry but I have to say no, I wouldn't give a cat to anyone who declawed. I just turned down a woman who wanted one of my hearter vent kittens because of that. She was a very sweet woman and would have giving one of them a good home. But once we started talking about declawing and I found out that she planed to declaw the kitty, I had to tell her no. :(

This is the reason I gave her. Even though your plans are for the kitty to be indoors only, and you fell she would be safe. There is always that chance that she can get out, the door might be left open, the screen falls out (as has happened to some one on PT, I belive) etc. What then happenes to the kitty? She will be out in the world with no way of defending herself. That could be her death and I just can't risk it.

She was sure that the kitten would never get out, sense her last cat didn't. But things happen in life and even though it hasn't happen yet to her, there always that chance. A chance I won't take with my babies, no matter how much I like this woman.

I hate the idea of any cat being in a shelter and of course the though of a cat being put to sleep kills me but, sometime I have to ask what is worse the horrible death a defenseless cat could go through or a caged shelter life. Both are horrible, of course, so it's matter of picking the worce of two evils.

Are they can all just live with me. :D :D

This is just my opinion, some might say I'm wrong who knows....but I have to go with what my gut tells me.
Declawing is wrong....indoors or not, it should not be done for any other reason but health prolems.

[krazyaboutkatz]

Although I had my RB Pepper declawed because I too was very ignorant at the time, I'm againt declawing now. In fact, before I was able to adopt both Sunny or Cirrus, I had to sign papers promising that I'd never declaw them and they also had to be indoor cats only. Many rescue organizations have these rules.

When I adopted Storm from the Humane Society, he also had to be an indoor cat but I don't recall them saying anything about declawing. With Sky I was shocked that he could be an indoor/outdoor cat and he was also from the Humane Society. They also said nothing about declawing. I guess some places are just more strict than others.

I do believe in declawing if the cat needs it for medical reasons such as an ingrown or infected nail. If the choice was to euthenize or declaw the cat, then I'd have to go with declawing the cat even though both decisions are bad ones. At least the cats life would be spared. I too hope that some day declawing will become illegal in America.

So I guess that the answer to your question Jen would be that I would let someone adopt a cat that was going to declaw them if and only if the cat would be euthenized if they didn't adopt it. Otherwise my answer would be no because declawing should only be done as a last resort.

I've unfortunately had the experience of seeing my poor Pepper in pain after this procedure was done.:( He had to wear a splint on his right paw because he wouldn't walk on it. I know he was in pain. His personality also changed because he became much more shy around people. Here's a pic of Pepper with his splint. :(

[CathyBogart]

I would have to say that I am totally against the procedure and would not adopt to anyone with such plans. Claw covers are an all right solution, removing a toe digit is not, IMO. I have never had a cat who was declawed, and the only way I ever would is if I fell for one in a shelter who was already mutilated.

I feel the same way about cropping/docking, and about the venomoiding procedure in snakes. If you don't want the whole animal, look elsewhere!

Edit: In Europe, isn't is also considered "cruel" to keep cats "locked up" in the house all the time?

[Ally Cat's Mommy]

I DO agree that a declawed cat is better than a dead one .... but I shudder to think about the pain they go through.

I would NEVER allow an unnecessary surgery to be performed on any of my children, OR any pets which I may own in the future.

However my over-riding thought on this VERY controversial thread is......


"IF THERE IS ONE PERSON I WOULD ABSOLUTELY TRUST TO DO WHATEVER IS IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE CAT - IT WOULD BE JEN!!!!!!"


So whatever you ultimately decide, I support you Jen, knowing that you will make the decision only taking into account the best interests of the cat.

BTW, luckiesforme mentioned tendonectomy. I had never heard of this procedure, but I spend some time of the web reading about it, and it does seem to be less invasive, and the recovery time seems to be quicker!


http://www.inno-vet.com/articles/2001/0301/41.html (http://)

[IttyBittyKitty]

My dear little Pixel claws at everything ...we've tried everything, but she's stir crazy and a little bored, hence the arrival of a new brother in a week or so's time. Declawing was never an option.

But, if it were the choice between declawing and being destroyed I know which I'd choose if I ran a shelter

[Logan]

"IF THERE IS ONE PERSON I WOULD ABSOLUTELY TRUST TO DO WHATEVER IS IN THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE CAT - IT WOULD BE JEN!!!!!!"

What a great statement, Ally Cat's Mom!!! :) Truer words were never spoken. :)

[catmandu]

My first reaction is that I am against declawing! But JJJ3 , BO BO , SAM , and Precious all came to me declawed and they all seem to have no problems adjusting! And anything is preferable to Death!I am sure that Cats who cling to Life with all thier Might , would agree with this!

[Catsnclay]

I know this is a VERY touchy subject, but there are other reasons for declawing a cat other than saving furniture.

First, just let me say that I've declawed all 4 of my cats, and none of them experienced any pain or problems.....AT ALL. Now my reason.....I have a medical problem where I CANNOT get scratched and risk infection. If I do get an infection from bleeding, I will require surgery and if not caught in time.....death. So, what is better.....declawed, happy, healthy cats or a dead care giver?

Declawing is not bad, it may not be the best thing to do, but it is not terrible. Terrible is all those unwanted kitties running around looking for food and a place to live and get love.

[K & L]

Originally posted by Catsnclay
Declawing is not bad, it may not be the best thing to do, but it is not terrible. Terrible is all those unwanted kitties running around looking for food and a place to live and get love.

I have to agree!