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CathyBogart
08-25-2003, 02:02 AM
Has anyone else here seen this? It's a documentary by Michael Moore, who tried to figure out why there is so much more gun violence in the US than other countries.

Interestingly, most Americans blame it on things like "There's more poverty here" or violent music/video games, or a history of violence in the country. However, other countries have these things too! Canada's unemployment rate is what, twice ours? If we're to blame our past, look at Germany's. Why don't they have 11,000 gun murders every year?

In the movie he traveled to areas where gun murders had occurred and spoke to people who had been there. He went to Columbine, to the place where the six year old shot another six year old, and many other places.

He also spoke with the head of the NRA, and TRIED to speak with Dick Clark, who advocates the program that makes poor single mothers have to bus 40 miles everyday to and from work to make minimum wage. The responses were really interesting. Dick Clark slammed a car door on him and drove away, and the head of the NRA walked off when he was asked about the six year old who died at the hands of another.

If you haven't seen this, I highly recommend it. It's an interesting movie, and it really made me think. It also made me want to move to Canada. :)

ticosmyham
08-25-2003, 02:33 AM
I have seen this....it is really well done and it, too, made me think. I also reccomend this documentary.

2kitties
08-25-2003, 10:36 AM
Michael Moore is a visionary with very strong opinions. However, he is also an extremist. Most of his movies, IMHO, are edited to promote his extreme liberal views. Again, IMHO, Michael Moore is a socialist who should take his own advice and move to Canada if he likes it there so much.

Sorry, but I find that man repulsive. I've watched his movies. They are like train wrecks- you can't turn your head away. It is easy to agree with him while watching his films. But, before joining his group, I'd recommend doing your own research. There are two sides to all of MM's stories.

wolfsoul
08-25-2003, 12:12 PM
I've seen it. :) I had to watch it in CAPP class last year. It was very interesting and I enjoyed watching it and learning about what goes on in this world. It was sad, but I've always been curious about he Columbine shooting.

That little cartoon was hilarious. My friend and I were laughing so hard because it was just so stupid lol.


It also made me want to move to Canada.
LOL, everyone move to Canada! Come visit me!!! :p

krazywhitechick
08-26-2003, 02:09 AM
that movie made me cry when they showed actual footage of the columbine shooting. i had never seen actual footage from inside the building, like i remember when it was happening there were news cameras outside the building but to actually see inside was totally different. same with the war shots in the movie.

i found a really good site a while back about the columbine shootings, its sort of disturbing obviously. as for its authenticy ( i know i spelled that wrong! lol) im not too sure. if u cant read that word because i cant spell, i mean i dont know if the information on the site is very valid or true. they claim to have letters and recordings of the killers voices and stuff, but i dont know if they're real or not. so if u go to the site and find out its not valid or truthful info please dont yell at me :(

i wont post the link unless people want me to. cause i dont wanna seem like im forcing u guys to look at it or w/e. but if u would like to see the site just let me know.

babolaypo65
08-26-2003, 07:54 AM
I enjoyed the film. I think he has a lot to say. I also think he has a good way of putting clips together so they have the best impact. That said.... something in the film made me suspicious of him, and now of everything he says.
There was a scene where he took the boy who uses the wheel chair to the government building in colorado (trying to get guns/ammo out of K-mar). The scene shows Moore and the other boy PULLING the boy who uses the chari UP the stairs. They focused on it. Every. Step. Drag. Up. bump. Drag. Up. bump. EVERY. step. While he narrated. We were supposed to be left thinking about how the simplest things for this boy are harder now....
It's true. They are. But that building has a big ole wheel chair ramp. Right next to the stairs. Why drag him up the stairs? for the effect. It made me wonder what else he did, or changed, just for the effect?? Now I question everything I see him do.

Soledad
08-26-2003, 08:15 AM
Well said, Babolay. He's entertaining, has some good points, but is ultimately untrustable.

Paul
08-26-2003, 12:52 PM
   I think the concept of "Bowling for Columbine" is a mistake. I think the issues it presents require a careful and serious investigation.

   David T. Hardy's website Documentary or Fiction? (http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html) is worth reading.

      Paul

Logan
08-26-2003, 02:06 PM
Whew! Thank you, Paul, for that enlightening article.

babolaypo65
08-26-2003, 03:27 PM
Thanks paul! Looking forward to reading it!

Lady's Human
08-27-2003, 07:34 PM
Bowling for Columbine is to documentary as Pravda/Tass are to journalism

babolaypo65
08-27-2003, 07:40 PM
Wow, there you go. That's probably closer to the truth than not!


Originally posted by Lady's Human
Bowling for Columbine is to documentary as Pravda/Tass are to journalism

ScantyNebula
08-28-2003, 09:16 AM
I saw it and thought it was a brilliant peice of work. And it made me glad to be living in Canada :D After living in a quiet place where I can leave my doors unlocked, I can't imagine moving to the states and having to bar my doors and carry a gun =/

I couldn't believe when he said it was a law to OWN a gun in Virginia =/

What really got to me was when people accused Marilyn Manson for causing these kids to kill people. I mean, I don't listen to the guy's music much and I think he's a sick man, but kids don't just go kill people because of the music they listen to...the media is another thing. Whenever I watch U.S. news .. its all about people getting killed, places getting bombed, robberies ... make no wonder so many people feel the need to carry a gun. When I watch news here in Newfoundland, its about the local fishery and heart warming stories about a surviving cancer patient. :rolleyes:

Lady's Human
08-28-2003, 12:50 PM
It's unbelievable because it's NOT the law. There is no state in the US that requires firearm ownership

ScantyNebula
08-28-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Lady's Human
It's unbelievable because it's NOT the law. There is no state in the US that requires firearm ownership

ah..It did sound bizarre ... thats what he said in the film tho =/

babolaypo65
08-28-2003, 01:25 PM
It might be a left over arcane law from the 1700s. But no, you are not required to have a firearm in the U.S. ANYWHERE.

kingrattus
08-28-2003, 01:51 PM
It was a good movie but almost everythin in it was WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The stats were SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO off, they made things look much worse!!!

Remember the part were they were giving free guns at the bank, that was WRONG WRONG WRONG!!! The bank was linked with the gun shop beside it, the bank was giving away coupons for a discount at the store!!! Some buddies of Robs live near that bank & questioned them & thats what they told them.

But I do agree the movie is worth while, it really does make u think. Just take what he says with a grain of salt (info wise). But he does have a good point. USA is a very dangerous place to live compaired to other countries (gun wise, school shooting yadda yadda yadda).

We figure it because too many people live too close to eachother, & there isn't strict enough rules. China has the loest crime rate in the world, because the rules r soooo strick. So if China & USA got to gether I'm sure it would become a greater place to live. But this part is just my opinion. I was much happier in a small town, & now I'm in Canada's largest City & I'm not too happy, there r too many people.

Soledad
08-28-2003, 01:59 PM
Uh, China is responsible for some of the worst human rights abuses in the world. Crime may be low but that's because everyone lives in fear of the crimes the government will commit against them. That's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

kingrattus
08-28-2003, 02:47 PM
STRICTER RULES!!! NOT ABUSE!!!! U steal something & u get in good **** for it, none of this BS slap on the hand BS!!! U kill someone & live a fairly ****ty/boring life, I'm sick of them living better then a lot of good people, computers, cable tv, $$ dinners, & don't say they don't get that crap, cause they do (I knew someone in there & he was being treated better then 1/2 our town!!!) & he tried to kill his best friend & only managed to shoot him in the back, while the guy out ran him!! HE ALSO GOT OFF ON GOOD BEHAVIOUR!!!!

There was a reason I said Mix the 2!!! not turn into CHINA!!!

Soledad
08-28-2003, 03:00 PM
I don't think we have to turn to China to learn how to treat people. If you do, I suggest moving there and experiencing the "joy" of it's low-crime and "governmental intervention." :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Prairie Purrs
08-28-2003, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by babolaypo65
It might be a left over arcane law from the 1700s. But no, you are not required to have a firearm in the U.S. ANYWHERE.

Actually, Kennesaw, Georgia, has had such a law on the books since 1982. And it was Virgin, Utah (not Virginia), that passed a law in 2000 requiring every head of household to maintain a firearm and ammunition.

http://www.jcs-group.com/what/politic/virgin.html

ScantyNebula
08-28-2003, 05:36 PM
Well ... I guess it is true ... that is nuts ... so what .. you get a fine if you don't have a gun?? thats just sick ..

babolaypo65
08-28-2003, 08:08 PM
I sadly stand corrected. and....
Well there's a city I'LL never live in. AS for the U.S. needing to be more like China. I don't think its as simple as that. I also think the media has portrayed the U.S. in a skewed a manner as Michael Moore.

Lady's Human
08-28-2003, 08:54 PM
What Moore's "Documentary" fails to show is that most (over 90%, don't know the exact stat) guns used in crime are posessed illegally. It also fails to show the FBI figures that credit privately owned firearms with stopping about 1.2 million crimes per year. The reason firearm crime seems so rampant in the US is the "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality of the media. In reference to the comment about TV in Newfoundland, the US Media could easily show the same type of news, but they'd never get the advertising dollars that they get with their bloody mentality.

ScantyNebula
08-28-2003, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Lady's Human
In reference to the comment about TV in Newfoundland, the US Media could easily show the same type of news, but they'd never get the advertising dollars that they get with their bloody mentality.

And thats the sad thing about it ...

Prairie Purrs
08-28-2003, 09:28 PM
I think the most important point the movie made is that people in the U.S. are afraid of everyone and everything. And that fear is definitely not a recent invention of the media, because I'm 46 and it permeated the small town where I grew up.

When I was a kid, other kids used to ask me whether I was afraid to go outside at night because I lived in the "bad" part of town. This was a town of 4,000 people in the middle of midwestern farm country. There was no "bad" part of town. I lived on the side of town where the handful of African-American families lived, and where a small public housing project was located.

We lock ourselves inside our homes, we don't know or trust our neighbors. We're terrified (especially of anyone who's "different"), we're angry about being terrified, and we're armed. It's a lethal combination.

Soledad
08-28-2003, 10:35 PM
CatsinDenver - WELL SAID!!!

Karen
08-28-2003, 10:56 PM
Originally posted by CatsinDenver
I think the most important point the movie made is that people in the U.S. are afraid of everyone and everything. And that fear is definitely not a recent invention of the media, because I'm 46 and it permeated the small town where I grew up.

When I was a kid, other kids used to ask me whether I was afraid to go outside at night because I lived in the "bad" part of town. This was a town of 4,000 people in the middle of midwestern farm country. There was no "bad" part of town. I lived on the side of town where the handful of African-American families lived, and where a small public housing project was located.

We lock ourselves inside our homes, we don't know or trust our neighbors. We're terrified (especially of anyone who's "different"), we're angry about being terrified, and we're armed. It's a lethal combination.

I'm not afraid! I dislike the media - any media - telling me that I am! And, by the way, I like my neighbors. I live on a pretty diversely-populated street, various ethnicities and everything from new immigrants, and people who have lived here for 80+ years. And I live in a "city," too. I wave to people when I drive down my humble little street, and they wave back.

As for Bowling for Columbine, read that site Paul pointed too. Boy, was I annoyed when I realized how much the movie twisted things and misrepresented stuff.

By the way, I am also the worst bowler in my family. Am routinely beaten by small children - and I'm trying my best! Oh well.

Prairie Purrs
08-29-2003, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by Karen
I'm not afraid! I dislike the media - any media - telling me that I am! And, by the way, I like my neighbors. I live on a pretty diversely-populated street, various ethnicities and everything from new immigrants, and people who have lived here for 80+ years. And I live in a "city," too. I wave to people when I drive down my humble little street, and they wave back.

As for Bowling for Columbine, read that site Paul pointed too. Boy, was I annoyed when I realized how much the movie twisted things and misrepresented stuff.

You're very lucky! Where I live, houses have bars on the windows. A neighborhood organization sends out a map every month with little symbols showing what crimes were reported in what location. Little masks representing burglaries, little cars representing stolen cars, little bodies representing homicides. I like living in the city, but there's no doubt that people are afraid.

One thing that Michael Moore got right in Bowling for Columbine is that many people in Denver were offended by the NRA's insistence on going ahead with its meeting here in the wake of the Columbine tragedy. This town was in shock. So what if it would have inconvenienced the organization to cancel and reschedule its annual meeting elsewhere? It just wasn't the time or the place to be promoting the pro-gun agenda.

ScantyNebula
08-29-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by CatsinDenver
[B]You're very lucky! Where I live, houses have bars on the windows. A neighborhood organization sends out a map every month with little symbols showing what crimes were reported in what location. Little masks representing burglaries, little cars representing stolen cars, little bodies representing homicides. I like living in the city, but there's no doubt that people are afraid.


LOL That is NUTS!! where I live I can leave my door unlocked at night, and drive to a convenience store and leave the car running in the parking lot while I pick up something ..

I just find it so funny how things are so completely different

kingrattus
09-01-2003, 09:50 AM
They way security kinda works for me & my family is. If u have a big dog that'll agressivly bark (but isn't really aggressive), it'll keep kids & bad teens out of ur house & yard. But nothing u can do will stop a Pro. But bak home there were no Pro house breakers & Max was able to stop 2 that we know of.

Twisterdog
09-01-2003, 01:26 PM
After living in a quiet place where I can leave my doors unlocked, I can't imagine moving to the states and having to bar my doors and carry a gun

That is a gross over-generaliztion. There are MANY places in the United States where you can leave your doors unlocked. (I live in one of them.) And there are MANY places in Canada that are dangerous and unsafe, just like there are in any country.

And I will venture to say that the only people "carrying guns" around in the USA are the criminals who have the guns illegally. And stricter laws aren't going to deter that element, anyway. I live in Wyoming - NRA/pro-gun capital of the world, I swear - and I've never seen anyone "carry a gun." Have a rifle in their truck during hunting season? Sure. But "carry a gun", as in pack a handgun around in your pocket or a six-shooter in your gun belt? Of course not. Be serious, it's 2003, not 1903.





What Moore's "Documentary" fails to show is that most (over 90%, don't know the exact stat) guns used in crime are posessed illegally. It also fails to show the FBI figures that credit privately owned firearms with stopping about 1.2 million crimes per year.

Excellent points. If I want to kill you, I can do it with my gun. I can also do it with my car, with my shovel, with my steak knife, with my hammer, with a brick, a rock, a bow and arrow, etc. The gun/hammer/rock is the tool I choose to perform a task. The tool is not inherently evil or good. If my son goes to the shooting range and shoots targets and soda cans with his .22, the gun is not inherently evil or bad. If my son uses a hammer to built a tree house, the hammer is not inherently evil or bad. The malice comes from the person using the tool, not the tool itself. Automobiles kill many, many, many times the amount of people guns do per year.

babolaypo65
09-01-2003, 02:07 PM
Thanks Twisterdog. I was struggling with the comment as well. I travel a lot (to Canada, and Europe). I often am asked if I keep a gun in my car, in my bedside table... I can't help but blame my own country's media, in part, for this stereotype, but it frustrates me nonetheless.
I grew up in a smallish town/city (it was about 20thousand people) where we didn't really lock doors. Now I live in a city of almost a Million. I would suspect that cities of a million in MOST countries would necessitate locking one's doors.
I have lived in the U.S. for 38 years and, (aside from hunters), I have seen a gun ONCE in a potentially criminal, violent situation. Last year, visiting the town I grew up in. I have lived in NM, in DC, in Boston, and spent time in many other major cities.
Ironically the most guns I ever saw in one place was the Edmonton airport. Yes, I know they were Americans in Canada hunting. But I *could* decide that Canada is full of guns couldn't I? ;) And, on that occassion my bags were searched and person after person with ducttaped shut coolers were not.

Now, don't get me wrong, I think the U.S. gun laws need to be revisited, and I'm currently reading up on Dean's proposals for doing so, and liking it.

The bottom line for me i think is that it's not as simple as "The U.S. is dangerous", "Canada is safe". Population density, gun laws...cultures....and MANY other factors all need to be taken into consideration. And as many posters have pointed out Bowling highlights one, and lets us believe it's the only factor.


Originally posted by Twisterdog
That is a gross over-generaliztion. There are MANY places in the United States where you can leave your doors unlocked. (I live in one of them.) And there are MANY places in Canada that are dangerous and unsafe, just like there are in any country.
;)

kingrattus
09-01-2003, 06:54 PM
Excellent points. If I want to kill you, I can do it with my gun. I can also do it with my car, with my shovel, with my steak knife, with my hammer, with a brick, a rock, a bow and arrow, etc. The gun/hammer/rock is the tool I choose to perform a task. The tool is not inherently evil or good. If my son goes to the shooting range and shoots targets and soda cans with his .22, the gun is not inherently evil or bad. If my son uses a hammer to built a tree house, the hammer is not inherently evil or bad. The malice comes from the person using the tool, not the tool itself. Automobiles kill many, many, many times the amount of people guns do per year.
======================


OMG someone understands a good gun owner!!

I get horrible looks & nasty comments when ppl ask what hobbies I have, they think I'm evil because I have guns. They also think I'm the devil because I co-own Rob's online gun store.
Our neighbours call the cops on us every time we load the guns into the car & drive off. One neighbour told us he always sees a cop pull up to our house knock on the door & leave. The cops only show up because they have too... For crying out loud the cops knew we had guns long befour the neighbours did, only because Rob worked with them for a year & they all shared stories.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

ScantyNebula
09-02-2003, 10:54 AM
Originally posted by Twisterdog

And I will venture to say that the only people "carrying guns" around in the USA are the criminals who have the guns illegally. And stricter laws aren't going to deter that element, anyway. I live in Wyoming - NRA/pro-gun capital of the world, I swear - and I've never seen anyone "carry a gun." Have a rifle in their truck during hunting season? Sure. But "carry a gun", as in pack a handgun around in your pocket or a six-shooter in your gun belt? Of course not. Be serious, it's 2003, not 1903.


Sorry, not "carry", but possess a gun in the household.. =/
Of course, Its not about how many people own a gun, its about the number of people that use them in an inappropriate manner. 11,000 is a staggering number of murders :eek: I have no doubt there are many safe neighbourhoos to live in, I didn't say that. All I meant is that if I ever lived there knowing the high rate of murders, I would probably be a bit freaked out..

All that said , I can't wait to visit there someday .. main areas of Interest: New York, Seattle, San Fransisco, Texas of course so I can bring Lily to see Alyson! :D