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Soledad
05-03-2003, 03:37 AM
Joe Conason's Journal
Bush's "Top Gun" get-up wasn't just tacky, it was a reminder of one of the most stunning lies ever committed to print by a presidential candidate.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

May 2, 2003 | Top gun's photo op

Watching the president emerge onto the flight deck of the USS Lincoln yesterday afternoon, it occurred to me that memory is the strongest antidote to propaganda. With the cooperation of the Pentagon (and at the expense of the taxpayers), Karl Rove had arranged one of the tackiest, most expensive campaign photo ops in history, but my recollections kept me from becoming absorbed in the macho atmospherics, let alone the president's anticlimactic speech about Iraq.

Rather than determination and grit, what the occasion evoked was Bush's strange Vietnam-era stint as a pilot in the Texas Air National Guard. And although Rove no doubt intended that we should all recall Bush's military service, he must have assumed that almost nobody would remember the actual details -- only the "Top Gun" style.


But the details are difficult to forget, even at such inspirational moments. The vague official account presented in Bush's campaign autobiography -- wherein he suggests that he "kept flying" with his Texas Guard unit until he completed his service -- is one of the more egregious prevarications ever committed to print by a presidential candidate. Closer to the true story, in which Bush mysteriously disappears from duty after failing to take his annual physical in 1972, is this account that appeared in the Boston Globe.

In today's Globe, Anne Kornblut reports a peculiar aspect of the May Day photo op: "White House officials originally said that Bush was making the dramatic jet trip because the ship was too far out to sea to be reached by helicopter. Bush was trained in ejection procedures and water survival in case of a crash. But the carrier was just 30 miles from shore by the time he arrived, and officials said it had slowed down so that Bush could spend the night on board before the USS Abraham Lincoln docks today, extending by one day the sailors' almost 10-month deployment at sea, the longest by a carrier in 30 years."

The men and women aboard the Lincoln looked content to be used as presidential props, despite the delay in their homecoming. But something else was troubling me about the president's determination to bask in reflected martial glory. And then I remembered exactly how he has demonstrated his respect and admiration for those who actually serve. His budget slashes their benefits over the next decade by almost $29 billion and restricts their medical care, in order to reduce taxes on his friends and patrons.

The only Democrat willing to say much about any of this seems to be David Sirota, communications director for the House Appropriations Committee's ranking minority member, David Obey. Sirota's response -- a "circus" -- was sharp and swift, as always, in marked contrast to many of the leaders of his party.

Logan
05-03-2003, 05:33 AM
Well, everyone is allowed his/her opinion and that's a good thing, but I totally disagree with the author of this article.

mugsy
05-03-2003, 07:07 AM
It sounds like the guys and girls on board the Lincoln didn't seem to mind being props, so why should the author have such a problem with it.

There has not been a president that has NOT done something like this for one reason or another. I'm not sure why the author keeps whining about that when it happens all the time. Did she just now figure it out that presidents use our tax money for all kinds of things, and that Bush is not unique?

joycenalex
05-03-2003, 09:14 AM
...Rather than determination and grit, what the occasion evoked was Bush's strange Vietnam-era stint as a pilot in the Texas Air National Guard...But the details are difficult to forget... The vague official account presented in Bush's campaign autobiography -- wherein he suggests that he "kept flying" with his Texas Guard unit until he completed his service -- is one of the more egregious prevarications ever committed to print by a presidential candidate. Closer to the true story, in which Bush mysteriously disappears from duty after failing to take his annual physical in 1972, is this account that appeared in the Boston Globe.... editing mine. before the last presidential election, in 1999 and 2000, i had read 2 biographies of each candidate ( i was trying to learn as much as i could to make an informed choice), and i learned that mr bush was in the texas air guard at the same time that mr gore was in vietnam as a war correspondant. i found it very surprising that the son of a military pilot, that pilot who was shot down into the pacific, would serve in the air guard instead of the regular air force. i also noticed that mr cheney didn't serve in the military during that era, he had "other priorities" at that time. i do not recall any comments from either party about oppositions' military service in the last election. interesting.
.... But something else was troubling me... And then I remembered exactly how he has demonstrated his respect and admiration for those who actually serve. His budget slashes their benefits over the next decade by almost $29 billion and restricts their medical care, in order to reduce taxes on his friends and patrons. editing mine

cutting health benefits, for the military vets and their families, past, current and future is slimy, wrong and immoral and needs to stopped. that is no way to thank the women and men who stepped up to serve this country. my representative and senators all have heard from me in writing, on this point. yes, healthcare is expensive(i work in it and i know) but we the people, owe a debt and that debt needs to be paid.

Soledad
05-03-2003, 07:58 PM
The main reason I posted this was to show how hypocritical it is to blow all that money on Bush's supposed love of the troops while he disrespects them with budget cuts.

I don't think there's anyway to defend that sort of behaviour.

momoffuzzyfaces
05-04-2003, 01:54 PM
I personally enjoyed watching the President land on the air craft carrier and greet the troops. This carrier was on it's way home after spending 9 months deployment. It's the longest any air craft carrier has been on active duty without a break. I think they deserved getting to meet the President. As for the photo op, every person in politics uses every chance they can to get in front of a camera. At least this was a positive way to do it instead of getting on camera trying to ruin someone else's personality.

Soledad
05-04-2003, 04:40 PM
What about the budget cuts. That's the MAIN point of this.

Don't you guys see how morally corrupt it is to spend millions of dollars on a photo op commemorating the troops while you slash BILLIONS of dollars from their budget?

Why would you defend that???!!:eek:

RICHARD
05-05-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Soledad
egregious prevarications ever committed .

[/B]





a gal i dated had egregious prevarications--
i dumped her soon after.:(

moosmom
05-05-2003, 02:19 PM
Don't you guys see how morally corrupt it is to spend millions of dollars on a photo op commemorating the troops while you slash BILLIONS of dollars from their budget?

I agree. How he can stand there acting all pompous when all along he knows he's cutting their benefits, to me is hypocritical. But like Mugsy said, if the men and women on the USS Abraham Lincoln didn't mind, why should we??

momoffuzzyfaces
05-05-2003, 04:53 PM
I still liked it! I'd rather have money spent celebrating with some of the troops than ignoring them like they did after Viet Nam. At least he's not raising our taxes and supporting a mistress.

mugsy
05-05-2003, 05:44 PM
I don't even mind raising taxes if the money is used properly.

Soledad
05-06-2003, 03:30 AM
I still liked it! I'd rather have money spent celebrating with some of the troops than ignoring them like they did after Viet Nam. At least he's not raising our taxes and supporting a mistress.

Well, it's good to have standards. LOL.

What's more morally bankrupt: having a mistress or spending millions of dollars on a photo op for your future campaign with people who you are taking BILLIONS away from? Which one hurts more people in the end? Which one creates more misery?

I think I know the answer.

I can't believe the lengths that people will go to protect this corrupt president.

Logan
05-06-2003, 09:09 AM
I think you need to remember, Soledad, that we are all entitled to our opinions. I have not heard or read one negative thing about this whole situation, except what you have posted here. Did it cost millions to have the President on that ship? I seriously doubt it, but I have no proof to back that statement. It was a happy, upbeat time for those sailors and for the American people. Don't throw water all over those good feelings!

I don't think we have had a president who is as supportive of our military in a long time. I will have to research more to understand the cuts you are talking about. I hope that doesn't happen. I thought, just last week, when I was at the concert to raise money for the military families, just how sad it was that our military families needed that support. But at the same time, I was proud to be a part of the group trying to help them.

mugsy
05-06-2003, 09:44 AM
I agree Logan that it's been a long time since we've had a president that supported our military (which is pretty sad being that he is the Commander in Chief). I know that Clinton refused to even return the Marine's salute as he got off Air Force One or the Presidential helicopter, which I found disgusting.

Actually, from what I have read and studied, Bush actually approved a pay raise for the military so that at least the enlisted personnel don't qualify for food stamps because they make so little.

I think that the morale of the military is much improved since Bush took office.

Now, understand that I don't think that Bush is not corrupt, but then I don't think that ANY politician is NOT corrupt somehow, especially once you reach that level. I would hardly say that Clinton ran a totally clean administration. I could care less what the man does on his own time and who he sleeps with or doesn't as long as he does the job, but, I think that he ran a corrupt administration too.

Both Bush and Clinton had/have strengths and weaknesses, and they seem to be totally different. Too bad we can't take the strengths of both and make one president because we'd probably get a good one. Personally, I wish McCain had won the Republican nomination and not Bush, because I think he would have done a better job.

momoffuzzyfaces
05-06-2003, 02:05 PM
I don't believe President Bush is any more 'corrupt' than any other president we've had. Seems like we recently had a president that was impeached. I call that corrupt if he's doing such a bad job the congress does that.

If you don't like the budget, write to your congress people. They have to approve of it.

I still liked the air craft carrier visit!!!!!

joycenalex
05-06-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by mugsy
I agree Logan that it's been a long time since we've had a president that supported our military (which is pretty sad being that he is the Commander in Chief).... Both Bush and Clinton had/have strengths and weaknesses, and they seem to be totally different. Too bad we can't take the strengths of both and make one president because we'd probably get a good one. Personally, I wish McCain had won the Republican nomination and not Bush, because I think he would have done a better job. dear molly, eisenhower, kennedy, johnson(a very short time) nixon, ford, carter, reagan, g.h. bush all had military service backgrounds, that stretch of presidents goes back slightly more then 50 years. most presidents have had military supportive policies. the battle planners of the last iraq war, the weapons, the weapons systems that were so good at delivering a bomb to a specific site, those didn't spring into being after january 2001, when mr bush took the oath of office, those women and men were trained/training and honing their skills during mr clintons' tenure. mr clinton should get some credit for that.
i agree with you in wishing that senator mccain had won the republication nomination, i too, think he'd do a better job. the current foriegn policy choices leave me uneasy.

lizbud
05-06-2003, 08:19 PM
Mugsy,

Quote: " but then I don't think that ANY politician is NOT corrupt somehow."

I hate generalizations, b/c they are most often incorrect. A member of my family is an elected official in Indiana & has been
for 26 years. He is the most honest man I know. He has been
re elected to office by his constituants because he is known to
be an honorable man who works hard to make life better for
all Indiana residents. To say that ALL politicians are cut from the
same cloth does a disservice to honest, principaled people who
enter public service.

As for the photo op of the Prez., that's all that it was, a photo
op. & no it did not make me feel all warm and fuzzy.I wish he
would have attended some of the funerals of the soldiers who
didn't make it back to their families.

mugsy
05-06-2003, 08:44 PM
Joyce, I know that most presidents have been involved in the military, but, it has been awhile since the military has had the support they have now.

Liz, I meant no malice, but, I do think that when politicians reach the national level they have some varying degrees of corruption. I truly don't believe that local and even state politicians are necessarily corrupt. I went back and reread my post and I did make it sound that I thought all politicians are corrupt...sorry.

Edwina's Secretary
05-07-2003, 10:48 AM
Mugsy,


I know that Clinton refused to even return the Marine's salute as he got off Air Force One or the Presidential helicopter, which I found disgusting.

This is an urban myth that has been written about many, many times. It is simply FALSE. (Usually the story is that the marines refused to salute Clinton --- also false and an insult to the marines!)

This is on all the myth-buster sites.

RICHARD
05-07-2003, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
Mugsy,



This is an urban myth that has been written about many, many times. It is simply FALSE. (Usually the story is that the marines refused to salute Clinton --- also false and an insult to the marines!)

This is on all the myth-buster sites.


when clinton became president he asked another politico
what he should do to be a 'good president' ...the politico gave him a bit of advice........LEARN TO SALUTE.

that's where the story started......

yorkster
05-07-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by mugsy
I know that Clinton refused to even return the Marine's salute as he got off Air Force One or the Presidential helicopter, which I found disgusting.




NOT TRUE.
This is an urban legend. I know E's secretary already posted that fact, but here is a link to check the story out if you're interested:
http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa031901a.htm

RICHARD
05-07-2003, 06:57 PM
i don't understand why everyone is so taken the cost of GW's trip to the Lincoln.....

aside from the 'extra' TLC that the sailors had to give to the ship-
extra spit shining- and the on deck festivities.....the cost is practically nothing.....the ship was coming back to port...it has to be in 'ship shape' .....Vikings (the jet he used) ALWAYS ARE LANDING on deck to deliver passengers and mail..

since that is one of my favorite aircraft
the only thing that bugs me about the whole trip is I HAVE ALWAYS wanted a trip on one of those bad boys.....catapult
take off and hook landing...that's what bugged me the most
:p :) :cool: :D :eek:

joycenalex
05-07-2003, 08:04 PM
[i]Originally posted by RICHARD [.....the ship was coming back to port...it has to be in 'ship shape' .....Vikings (the jet he used) ALWAYS ARE LANDING on deck to deliver passengers and mail..since that is one of my favorite aircraft. the only thing that bugs me about the whole trip is I HAVE ALWAYS wanted a trip on one of those bad boys.....catapult take off and hook landing...that's what bugged me the most
:p :) :cool: :D :eek: [/B]
dear richard, i have always been fascinated by those ships and aircraft. thank god that there are american women and men to do that job. i have always wanted to ask any of the pilots or flight crews, "ARE YOU NUTS?!?" what in the sam hill makes you for one milisecond think that landing a small fast moving multimillion dollar aircraft on a ship bobbing up and down in the ocean on a landing area the size of a football field is a good thing? and thank you very much for being so crazy, but are you nuts? and who makes the steel in that hook and cable?::p

Soledad
05-07-2003, 08:13 PM
I think, for me, I was alarmed that he would be so willing to spend millions on his photo op whilst he was taking billions away from the forces' paychecks and healthcare. Especially from a man who skipped out on National Guard service during 'Nam. Pretty crappy if you ask me...:(

But I guess as long as you put on a good show, people won't care.

mugsy
05-07-2003, 08:16 PM
Actually Richard, I have always been a bit concerned about you, but this pretty much seals it.

And as for Clinton not saluting....I watched him many times exit aircrafts and he did not acknowledge the Marine's salute, but, I didn't see him all the time, so I can't speak for that.

Soledad
05-07-2003, 08:49 PM
http://www.snopes.com/military/graphics/salute.jpg

Hmmmmm....

AND, from a marine:

If the question is "Did the Marines who greeted the President willfully show disrespect by failing to execute a "facing" movement after the salute?" the answer is no.
Proper protocol is for the Marine to snap a salute to the President. The President may or may not return the salute at his discretion. If the President returns the salute, the Marine immediately "cuts" or "posts" by bringing his arm sharply down to his side from the salute and remaining at a position of attention. If the President does not return the salute, the Marine will wait until the President passes him, then he will cut and remain at a position of attention. This is the protocol when greeting a senior officer, including the President.

With the new Presidency comes a changing of the Presidential Detail. The new command of the Presidential Detail may have chosen to add a facing movement to the protocol. This is at the complete discretion of the command. A Marine does not have the luxury of choosing whether or not he follows proper protocol. He is given an order and he follows it to the letter. If the order does not include a facing movement, the facing movement will not occur. If the order includes a facing movent, the facing movement occurs. It is that simple. Whether or not this movement becomes a standard part of protocol remains to be seen.

Marines do not act as individuals, we act as a team. Marines follow procedure and protocol. The Marines you saw followed their orders. That is a Marine.

lizbud
05-07-2003, 09:33 PM
Mugsy,

Glad you clarified that thought for me, I think. :p
Do you really believe that all national level politicians have
"varying levels of corruption", while state or local politicians
are "not necessarily" corrupt ? LOL. Hope you don't teach any
Government classes.:D

Soledad,

Quote: "But I guess as long as you put on a good show, people won't care."

Oh, I think a lot of people care & took notice of the photo op
"grandstanding" & just mentally filed it away for 2004. Did you
read Sen. Robert Byrd's (of all people) comments on the event?
He spoke very well I thought. Just my opinion.

mugsy
05-07-2003, 09:49 PM
Actually Liz I do teach government, however, I keep my personal opinions out of it and keep to "just the facts ma'am.";) I've just gotten cynical in my old age I guess! lol

Soledad
05-07-2003, 09:59 PM
I work with politicians all day. They are NOT all corrupt. They are pretty much normal people who have to make unpopular decisions and are always in a damned if you do, damned if you don't sort of position. Extremely long hours, moderate pay...all in all pretty thankless.

But it is easy to get cynical. I don't think corruption is as big of a problem as complancency. That happens a lot.

I hope you're right, Lizbud. I don't see why a national guard flunkie should get praise for spending millions of tax payer bucks in order to act out a Top Gun fantasy.

Edwina's Secretary
05-08-2003, 10:49 AM
Because the ship was in sight of land (and that didn't go with the photo op) they moved the ship around so that the land would not show in any photos of the president.

My husband, who unlike me is apolitical, asked what he was doing in that outfit. When I was in NYC this week people were talking about it and singing "Macho Man." It was soooooo very masculine! The helmet, the straps around his legs looking as if he had on a codpiece.....

Logan
05-08-2003, 11:51 AM
Now he's a National Guard flunkie, Soledad? Is this because he wasn't in combat? Talk about cynical!!! Sometimes I am amazed at the lengths people will go to just to find something bad in a situation like this. I truly believe most people who don't like this president feel the way they do because of the way the election results were handled. That's sad. :(

RICHARD
05-08-2003, 12:14 PM
Originally posted by Edwina's Secretary
When I was in NYC this week people were talking about it and singing "Macho Man." It was soooooo very masculine! The helmet, the straps around his legs looking as if he had on a codpiece.....

he had on a flight suit and the survival vest/harness..
completely appropriate for a flight on a Viking...
since people are so concerned about him dressing the part, does anyone know what kind of underwear he was wearing????

who was the knucklehead pres candidate who rode in the tank with the tanker's helmet a few years ago????

and what are YOU doing looking at the Presidental package????

pretty disrespectful, if you ask me!!

joyce,
the funniest thing i heard about a night landing on a carrier was-

put a postage stamp at one end of your living room floor, place a chair on the other side of the room. turn off the lights in the place,
go stand on the chair, stick your tongue out and try to hit that stamp with your tongue......

all in a day's work for those guys and gals!!!

Pam
05-08-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Soledad

I don't see why a national guard flunkie should get praise for spending millions of tax payer bucks in order to act out a Top Gun fantasy.

I agree with Logan here. This was just rude Soledad. :rolleyes:

momoffuzzyfaces
05-08-2003, 01:20 PM
Just for the record: He did not spend "Millions". Maybe ONE Million. That was released on the news yesterday. And he did not delay the ship from arriving in port early. It arrived the day it was scheduled too. (just in case this subject comes up) A certain political party is suffering from a severe case of "photo op envy" and are trying to stir things up. They are still pouting because they lost the last election. I really wish they would get over it since they can't change it.

As to the flight suit: what should he have worn? A SPEEDO?????

ALL SO FOR THE RECORD: THE NATIONAL GUARD PEOPLE ARE NOT FLUNKIES!!! THEY ARE THERE DOING THEIR JOBS AND I AM GRATEFUL FOR THEM. MAY YOU NEVER EXPERIENCE A DISASTER AND NEED ONE TO HELP YOU!!!!

RICHARD
05-08-2003, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
Just for the record: He did not spend "Millions". Maybe ONE Million. That was released on the news yesterday. And he did not delay the ship from arriving in port early. It arrived the day it was scheduled too. (just in case this subject comes up) A certain political party is suffering from a severe case of "photo op envy" and are trying to stir things up. They are still pouting because they lost the last election. I really wish they would get over it since they can't change it.

i seriously doubt he spent a million.....

wait a second!!
gas prices out her in CA have been astronomical.... i'll have to check out how many pounds of fuel an S3 Viking can take...

it took me 30 dollars to fill my truck a while ago......


a gallon weighs about 8 lbs.......a viking carries......
carry the one.........five........

i'll get back to you .....i need a calculator.......;)

Logan
05-08-2003, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
Just for the record: He did not spend "Millions". Maybe ONE Million. That was released on the news yesterday. And he did not delay the ship from arriving in port early. It arrived the day it was scheduled too. (just in case this subject comes up) A certain political party is suffering from a severe case of "photo op envy" and are trying to stir things up. They are still pouting because they lost the last election. I really wish they would get over it since they can't change it.

As to the flight suit: what should he have worn? A SPEEDO?????

ALL SO FOR THE RECORD: THE NATIONAL GUARD PEOPLE ARE NOT FLUNKIES!!! THEY ARE THERE DOING THEIR JOBS AND I AM GRATEFUL FOR THEM. MAY YOU NEVER EXPERIENCE A DISASTER AND NEED ONE TO HELP YOU!!!!


I'm in your court, Connie!!!! :)

RICHARD
05-08-2003, 02:16 PM
jp-4 fuel -1875 gallons @ 2.00 a gallon
the pilot's pay, painting GW's name on the side of the plane,
parking, valet.......


as a tax payer I AINT PAYING FOR NO SPEEDO (banana hammock???? lololololololololololol)



i can't do this anymore.......:eek:

lolololololol

catland
05-08-2003, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by RICHARD
jp-4 fuel -1875 gallons @ 2.00 a gallon
the pilot's pay, painting GW's name on the side of the plane,
parking, valet.......




I'm so disappointed. I thought you were going to say "GW in a speedo.... priceless"

RICHARD
05-08-2003, 02:52 PM
Originally posted by catland
I'm so disappointed. I thought you were going to say "GW in a speedo.... priceless"



GW wearing a speedo......priceless....:)


i thought about that but thought, naw, too obvious!!!

momoffuzzyfaces
05-08-2003, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by catland
I'm so disappointed. I thought you were going to say "GW in a speedo.... priceless"
Thank goodness he didn't wear a speedo then or he would be accused of trying to bankrupt the country. :eek: :D

RICHARD
05-08-2003, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
Thank goodness he didn't wear a speedo then or he would be accused of trying to bankrupt the country. :eek: :D



it depends on how cold it is outside...

lolololololol


(sitting here, laughing like the fool i know i am!!)

momoffuzzyfaces
05-08-2003, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by RICHARD
it depends on how cold it is outside...

lolololololol


(sitting here, laughing like the fool i know i am!!)
(shaking head) NAWTEE, NAWTEE, NAWTEE!!!:D

Soledad
05-08-2003, 04:57 PM
When I say National Guard flunkie I'm talking about the year's worth of time he went AWOL. I was not implying that the National Guard sucked, but that Bush didn't even show up for a year.:eek: :rolleyes:

Logan
05-08-2003, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Soledad
When I say National Guard flunkie I'm talking about the year's worth of time he went AWOL. I was not implying that the National Guard sucked, but that Bush didn't even show up for a year.:eek: :rolleyes:

I knew who you were talking about. What's with the AWOL stuff?? I have listened to every talk show imaginable and have read internet news and the paper. I have never heard that he went AWOL. I think you're tossing daggers to see where they will land. Mr. Bush isn't perfect, I'm sure, but who is??? I think we can always find fault, Soledad, when we look for it. I'm sure you see it in me, and I can see it in other people if I look hard enough for it. It just seems to me that you have an agenda against this President. No matter how anyone defends or tries to explain an alternative idea, you aren't going to even entertain it.

What President hasn't made appearances like this? Shoot, it isn't going to be free, but Mr. Bush will be in South Carolina tomorrow, giving a commencement speech at the University of SC. That's an expense. Presidents have always made special appearances. It's what they do! And our taxes probably pay for it. But this wouldn't change if Al Gore was the President. The expense would still be there! Many, many presidents have gone on military ships too!

Soledad
05-08-2003, 05:24 PM
You seem to think that I'm an Al Gore/Clinton lover. I am not.

However, Bush is just abominable.

Why is his inability to show up for A YEAR in the National Guard not a big deal? Why is his lack of compassion for the troops not a big deal? Why do you feel the need to defend these actions? You only tarnish yourself...

RICHARD
05-08-2003, 06:13 PM
from the code of military justice

----------------------------------------------------------------
808. ART. 8. APPREHENSION OF DESERTERS

Any civil officer having authority to apprehend offenders under the laws of the United States or of a State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession, or the District of Columbia may summarily apprehend a deserter from the armed forces and deliver him into the custody of those forces.

---------------------------------------------------------------
810. ART. 10. RESTRAINT OF PERSONS CHARGED WITH OFFENSES

Any person subject to this chapter charged with an offense under this chapter shall be ordered into arrest or confinement, as circumstances may require; but when charged only with an offense normally tried by a summary court-martial, he shall not ordinarily be placed in confinement. When any person subject to this chapter is placed in arrest or confinement prior to trial, immediate steps shall be taken to inform him of the specific wrong of which he is accused and to try him or to dismiss the charges and release him.
----------------------------------------------------------------


If GW had been AWOL there should be some kind of notation in his service record. I am sure this would have come up sooner rather than later. AWOL first, then you are charged with desertion (from what i remember...)

and if there was a 'cover-up' that someone in his unit would
have known about this 'absence' and would have said something to the media!

is there somewhere i can find what the trip to the carrier cost?

Soledad
05-08-2003, 06:39 PM
Gimme a few minutes, I'll get you some stuff.

Here's a start, though:

Bush (http://www.boston.com/news/politics/campaign2000/news/One_year_gap_in_Bush_s_Guard_duty+.shtml)

momoffuzzyfaces
05-08-2003, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Soledad

However, Bush is just abominable.

No, that's the snowman that lives in the mountains. Kin to a Yeti.:eek:

RICHARD
05-08-2003, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
No, that's the snowman that lives in the mountains. Kin to a Yetti.:eek:

oh and ignore the sasquatch????

Soledad
05-08-2003, 08:08 PM
I love that movie.

momoffuzzyfaces
05-08-2003, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by RICHARD
oh and ignore the sasquatch????
I thought that was a vegetable that here in Kansas every one grows but never eats. :eek:

RICHARD
05-09-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
I thought that was a vegetable that here in Kansas every one grows but never eats. :eek:
how do you change a melon into another vegetable??

toss it up in the air.
it comes down squash.

momoffuzzyfaces
05-09-2003, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by RICHARD
how do you change a melon into another vegetable??
??? Melons are vegetables? I thought they were fruits? Now I'm even more confused!:confused: :D

catland
05-09-2003, 02:12 PM
or you could squash it with your Big Foot.:p

RICHARD
05-09-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
??? Melons are vegetables? I thought they were fruits? Now I'm even more confused!:confused: :D

sorry the joke went...

how do you change a fruit into a vegetable?


your orders are ready.:)

lizbud
05-09-2003, 04:18 PM
Richard,

I thought catland's answer was VERY clever.

Quote"or you could squash it with your Big Foot." (Yeti).

:D :D :D

p.s. Wha cha mean " your orders are ready." ? Is the bar open?

p.p.s. About the Free Tibet, I'll take it.

jackiesdaisy1935
05-13-2003, 09:59 AM
Soledad, you don't know what you are talking about as usual. Don has been retired from the Navy for 30 years and our benefits have increased much over these years. We get a very good retirement, we get excellent medical coverage and we get excellent coverage on all prescriptions which are free. We can take our dogs to the Army Vet for a small users fee and get their shots, etc. etc. even surgery if need be. We can also go to the Navy Hospital on occasions. There are huge Military commissaries where we can buy our food, Military exchanges where we can buy most anything we want. Any person who stays in for a period of years will get these benefits.
President Bush is very popular with the Military he relates to them and they relate to him. From what I read there was an amount of $7.00 per hour difference between whether he flew in the helocopter or the jet and no I don't remember where I read it.
I think he is doing well as a President, at least he shows more respect to the military than the last President who was to busy playing around and taking fun trips than tending to business.
I think your extreme personal dislike for President Bush does not make your posts credible.
Jackie, Perry and Miss Daisy

RICHARD
05-13-2003, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Soledad
Gimme a few minutes, I'll get you some stuff.








still on hold.....:eek:


Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape

I'm still waiting...I'm still waiting...I'm still waiting...

-david byrne,

yorkster
05-13-2003, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by RICHARD
still on hold.....:eek:


Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape

I'm still waiting...I'm still waiting...I'm still waiting...

-david byrne,


WOW! that's a blast form the past.......................The Talking Heads, right?

Soledad
05-13-2003, 11:46 PM
Love the TH reference.

However, I could not locate an exact costing. I could get an estimate, but it's not certain (in the several million range). Unfortunately, I do have a job and could not be arsed to cost out what I'd gathered, though I almost involved the defense and economics researchers, cooler heads prevailed.

P.S. Did you see that plenty of people HAVE contacted the press about Bush's National Guard vacation...

RICHARD
05-14-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by yorkster
WOW! that's a blast form the past.......................The Talking Heads, right?




did you expect anything less????:rolleyes:

i love them.....


jackie,

a 7.00 dollar difference????

geez, they want about 50 for a bungee jump........

tell you what........i'll pay for your ticket.......but only if you go with me!!!!


i still think there should be some kind of mention in GW's service record about his disappearance......it's not like the military to miss
something like that..
:eek:

yorkster
05-14-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by RICHARD
did you expect anything less????:rolleyes:

i love them.....

:eek:

Have you seen "Stop Making Sense" ?
(I think that was the title)

RICHARD
05-14-2003, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by yorkster
Have you seen "Stop Making Sense" ?
(I think that was the title)


absolutely,

i was there at the filming!!!
at the pantages theater in dec '83!!!

yorkster
05-14-2003, 06:14 PM
Originally posted by RICHARD
absolutely,

i was there at the filming!!!
at the pantages theater in dec '83!!!

wow! you're old :p
kidding ya'!

you were really there? that would be so :cool: !!!
can you be seen in the movie? what fun that must of been!

Soledad
05-14-2003, 06:54 PM
i still think there should be some kind of mention in GW's service record about his disappearance......it's not like the military to miss

I guess everyone has their price. Rich daddy, subservient press...add it up and you get....SILENCE.

RICHARD
05-14-2003, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Soledad
I guess everyone has their price. Rich daddy, subservient press...add it up and you get....SILENCE.



my name is NOT "rich daddy"..........lol;)

mugsy
05-14-2003, 07:42 PM
Well you ARE Rich.....but maybe not rich.

Soledad
05-14-2003, 07:48 PM
Actually, I think I will start calling you RICH Daddy. It has a ring to it...;)

mugsy
05-14-2003, 07:50 PM
I don't think I'll go there!!! hehehe

Soledad
05-14-2003, 07:52 PM
Ha! You're so dirty, Mugsy.

momoffuzzyfaces
05-14-2003, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by Soledad
I guess everyone has their price. Rich daddy, subservient press...add it up and you get....SILENCE.
HA! HA! HA! What a HOOT!!! Subservient press!!! That's the funniest thing I've heard in years!!! :D :D :D

mugsy
05-14-2003, 08:18 PM
No really....I took a shower this morning...I promise! :p ;) :D

marysmerrycats
05-15-2003, 01:26 AM
soledad is just a U.S. and Bush basher thats all, she never passes up a chance to do so. I'm sick of it.

jackiesdaisy1935
05-15-2003, 02:02 PM
Yup, Me too
Jackie and so is Perry and Miss Daisy

Soledad
05-15-2003, 06:41 PM
Good to know you girls can be so mature about all of this.:rolleyes:

Pam
05-15-2003, 06:52 PM
Soledad, sometimes I wonder if you didn't secretly wish that the US would have been clobbered in this war. Bush was damned if he did, and damned if he didn't in your eyes. You totally amaze me. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :confused:

Soledad
05-15-2003, 06:55 PM
And sometimes I wonder how people can get along in life for so long when they can't handle people disagreeing with them.

How many times do I have to tell you, I had family in this war, do you think I wanted them to get "clobbered"??? That is just disgusting and disrespectful for you to assume that.

lizbud
05-15-2003, 09:04 PM
I believe what Soledad is referring to about Bush's missing
records of military service is touched on in the book titled
"Fortunate Son"

About the Book:



Since 2000, Fortunate Son: George W. Bush and the Making of an American President has been the most talked-about Bush biography, weathering a fierce storm of controversy and suppression. After original publisher St. Martin’s Press received threats from Bush campaign lawyers, and saw their author destroyed in public, they withdrew their edition of 70,000 from stores with promises to burn them. Soft Skull republished the book, but ran into corporate media (like 60 Minutes, and media "watchdog" Brill’s Content) intent on attacking the author. A Texas lawsuit shut down distribution of this critical, fair, revealing biography. Hatfield’s life became the bigger story, and the message he was trying to send seemed destined to remain unheard.

Soft Skull nevertheless released an updated second edition of Fortunate Son in June 2001, adding analyses of our "selected president" by noted historians, attorneys, and professors and a new introduction by NYU Media Professor Mark Crispin Miller, author of The Bush Dyslexicon. Shortly thereafter, on July 17, 2001, Jim Hatfield checked himself into a motel in Arkansas and took an overdose of pills, ending his own life after experiencing what Mark Crispin Miller describes as "ruination" at the hands of "the Bush machine and a compliant corporate press."

Soft Skull is releasing our third edition of Fortunate Son, with a preface by Greg Palast, author of The Best Democracy Money Can Buy, and new introductory remarks from Mark Crispin Miller. Fortunate Son and the controversy surrounding its publication are also the subject of the new documentary film Horns and Halos by directors Michael Galinsky and Suki Hawley. Horns and Halos has been selected as "Best Documentary" of 2002 at both the New York Underground Film Festival and the Chicago Underground Film Festival, and is an Official Selection at the 2002 Toronto and Rotterdam International Film Festivals.

As this continuing demand for and interest in the book demonstrates, Fortunate Son is a resource that provides key information to understanding not only the making of our current president, but also the machinery of American politics. "This is about a guy who stuffed his pockets and built a career on a combination of daddy’s Rolodex, political venom and rich-kid contacts," writes Greg Palast in his preface. "In reading Hatfield’s description of Bush’s rise to Governor of Texas, we see that history repeats itself with horrifying predictability: first as farce and then as Presidency." The list of what power and prestige can buy this country used to exclude our highest office. Fortunate Son and the authors whose opinions we’ve gathered for this new edition suggest that is no longer the case.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About the Authors:



Greg Palast is an award-winning reporter for BBC Television's Newsnight and The Observer of London, and the author of The Best Democracy Money Can Buy. His website is gregpalast.com.

Mark Crispin Miller is a professor of media studies at New York University. His books include Boxed In: The Culture of TV (1988) and Seeing Through Movies (1990). He is the author of The Bush Dyslexicon, published by W.W. Norton in 2001.

The late J.H. Hatfield was a journalist, a husband, a father, and the prolific author of over a half dozen books, including two biographies of twentieth-century cultural icons. "

I think the name of the book is taken from the song of the same
name by Creedence Clearwater Revival.

joycenalex
05-17-2003, 08:03 PM
i had read about mr bushs' early year in molly ivens book, "shrub" BEFORE the 2000 election. the information was available, to anyone that looked.

lotrfreak
05-22-2003, 06:41 PM
I too disagree with the autor of this thread. I did a report on George W. Bush, I am a Texan republican and proud of it. He can fly a plane, so he did not need to be "taught". He even wanted to take a different type of jet. One that takes more skill to fly. But they denied him his request for lack of room for secret service

Soledad
05-22-2003, 11:16 PM
You disagree that he slashed funding for service men and women? Wow...

carole
05-23-2003, 01:01 AM
I think soledad is just very passionate about what she believes in, nothing to vulgar in that,, This is way too heavy for me to get involved so i am not cheers

RICHARD
05-23-2003, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by carole
This is way too heavy for me to get involved so i am not cheers

if we take off a few pounds (kilos) would you change your mind?;)

carole
05-23-2003, 04:37 PM
HA HA u are so funny, lol, well richard to be honest i know nothing about whats been said so i best keep my mouth shut i think.

RICHARD
05-23-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by carole
HA HA u are so funny, lol, well richard to be honest i know nothing about whats been said so i best keep my mouth shut i think.

and what makes you think I know what i'm talking about??
:eek:
it's nothing more than politics.....kinda like a family fight,
you know...except you are fighting with people who aren't related to you!