Vegan Animal Food

[Housh]

Very interesting debate was sparked from this thread in cat general: http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24365

A link to a vendor with vegan animal food products with info: http://www.vegancats.com/

I was wondering what people's views on this topic?

I personally just find this fascinating and I wanted to start a clean debate on this. Lets see what you think.

[veegan]

cool, thanks for making the poll, Im curious to see what people think..

Even though I have a feeling Im gonig to be the minority. heh.

[veegan]

dogs are omnivores, like humans.

I think its cruel to supprt the meat industry, and to feed my pets the crap thats found in pet foods.

"What’s Really in Meat-Based Pet Food:

Carcasses of euthanized cats & dogs (some with flea collars and containing sodium pentobarbital used for euthasia).
Unwanted insecticides and pharmaceuticals from diseased livestock (complete with plastic ID tags).
Rotting supermarket rejects including plastic and styrofoam packaging.
Animal parts deemed “unfit for human consumption” (heads, legs, tongues, intestines, esophagi, beaks, feathers, bones, blood, lungs, ligaments, etc.)
Diseased and cancerous body parts from the 4 D’s: dead, dying, diseased, & disabled factory-farmed animals"

[wolf_Q]

No offence, but I have a hard time believing that is in ALL meat-based pet foods.

[RubyMutt]

Blinky, my hamster, is on a vegan diet, but my fishies and pup are not. However, I really admire a person who will do the research and provide a healthy and nutritious vegan diet for their animals.

[Housh]

This quote found off the Vegancats.com FAQ was rather shocking. I hope this isn't the Vegan 'Trump card'.

What is "natural" has never been the basis for what is ethical anyway. Rape is a perfectly "natural" reproductive strategy, utilized by many species, yet few would argue that this makes it okay. Morality is based on a vision of what ought to be, not on a dogmatic adherence to whatever has historically been.

[CathyBogart]

In general I do not approve of feeding an animal a diet so radically different from its natural diet. The digestive systems of dogs and cats are very different from those of herbivorous animals, and they simply do not process plant matter as well.

HOWEVER: If a person does the research, speaks with a nutritionalist, and takes the time to actually make sure that the animal is getting the required nutrition, maybe. I haven't met an animal raised on such a diet, so I can't say for sure what my opinion is.

Veegan: Please show me documentation proving that such things are still used in meat-based pet foods. I can find plenty of information from several decades ago, but nothing current of the sort.

[veegan]

Housh- i dont know what you mean by 'trump card'.. ?? :confused: and the rape thing really confused me too, if thats what you meant.

And actually, that excerpt from vegancats reminds me.. just because I post info from certain sites, doesnt mean I agree totally with what they believe and say. Im vegan, but there are many ways to be vegan, many reasons, and theres no one clear cut way to be vegan. A lot of people have more "radical" views than I, and a lot have a lot less "radical" views than I. I mean, I support PETA, but do not agree with everything they do. (And I appreciate that they have the option to choose what your donation money goes to). Anyway.. just wanted to say that..

wolf-q- no its not in all meat based pet foods, but most. I do appologize for not clarifying that! :O (I did in past posts).

popcornbird- yes dogs are omnivores. unlike cats, they do not require taurine to live.

WolfChan- here is a link to a site that discusses it, and has a link to a PDF (I think thats what its called lol) file of an article with all the info. http://www.petfoodshop.com/evolution_3.htm



I was afraid when this thread was created it would virtually turn into an entire debate against me.. :p

I know veganism and animal rights is a hot issue. I just hope you are all open minded and accepting enough to not let my beliefs negatively affect your opinion of me. Because I mean, these are controversial issues and a lot of people do get turned off by animal rights activism/veganism, etc because, unfortunately, theres a lot of negativity surrounding it. :rolleyes:

[CathyBogart]

Thanks for the link. I wasn't trying to be rude, I'm just skeptical about such information. I see that I was wrong in this case. ^_^

Where is the debate against you? I see several differing opinions, but no personal attacks.

I know what you mean about the vegancats quote....I'm pretty big on animal rights, but more often than not I think PETA is a bunch of overreacting loonies who have lost sight of their original goals. *giggles*

[veegan]

yeah I dont mean they are personal attacks, its just, stressful to be the only one who doesnt think its unhealthy or wrong or unethical, etc. ya know? lol I cant handle the pressure!! hahah Im all alone trying to support my silly vegan ways! ;)

and yeah, I hear ya. I really do wonder sometimes about some of the things PETA does. heh :rolleyes:

[CathyBogart]

Hehe, I'm always alone when it is brought up that my snakes eat too....You'd think that feeding my pets wouldn't be regarded as bad, but I've been called some nasty things. I've also been told that my cherished babies should be banned just because they're predators.

[Uabassoon]

I'm also a PETA member but I really don't agree with everything that they do, sometimes I think they go a little too overboard. As for feeding my cats a vegetarian or vegan diet I would never do it. It's ok for me, but that was my personal choice, me as a human decided that I would not consume animal products. But as for my cats they are different , and they can't survive without taurine. There are some vegetarian cat foods on the market but I don't really trust them. I've read a lot on the subject and learned that if you really want to give a cat a good and healthy vegetarian diet you need to personally cook their own meals... well I don't even cook my own meals so I don't exactly have time to cook meals for my cats so that I can ensure that they get everything they need. So they will consume non vegetarian foods because I think for their own health that is our (mine and theirs) best option.

[aly]

I am all for people being vegan but I won't feed my animals a vegan diet, especially not my kitties. There were some dogs on a show on Animal Planet that went blind from a vegetarian diet (sorry I can't give more details because I forgot what show it was).

[Soledad]

Veegan -

Trust me, I know what it feels like to have an unpopular opinion on PetTalk. The Doghouse is a good example of me being in the minority. So, I'm sorry if you feel picked on or attacked. I know how it feels.

I am pretty in line with a lot of what you have to say. I've had this discussion before with Kater (also another educated and level headed vegan on PT) and I was a vegetarian for years and I did attempt veganism at one point. Simply put, it was not for me.

Almost all of my friends are vegetarians and some of them are vegans. An even smaller number of them are kosher vegans. So, I understand where you're coming from and I respect your decision. But I've never heard a truly compelling and practical argument for veganism, and even more so for vegan pets.

I guess some of my frustration with veganism is that most vegans have a certain lifestyle that affords them the priviledge of being one. To me, it seems like quite an elitist lifestyle that is impractical for your average person.

However, I am a HUGE believer and advocate for animal welfare. I am disgusted with the American meat industry. The way they treat their animals, from the way the pump them full of antibiotics and hormones to the way they crowd them in filthy conditions completely incongrious with their natural habitat and behaviours, is disgusting and needs to be fixed ASAP. Not just for the animals, but for our health.

I do think we should be eating less meat, looking at the way we farm and care for our land and be more concerned/aware/conscientous of where our food comes from. I'm just not convinced that veganism is the way.

[PayItForward]

Veegan... This is not a personal comment about you :)
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I have vegetarian friends, one of whom is a vegan. Good on them for their life choices.

But I think no child under 18 or cat/dog should be placed on such a restrictive diet. Vets/doctors say the same thing, although it is possible to be healthy on a vegan diet, it is not necessarily healthy for everyone/animal to be on a vegan diet.

I'm sure some animals/children could thrive fine on vegan food but I wouldn't risk it.

I would never force my animals onto a non-meat diet. Though if I could find a humanly killed meat sourced cat food, I would pay additional for this advantage. The same as I spend more money on other cruelty free products.(i.e. Cleaning stuff/makeup)

I just can not equate eating animals that are breed for food, with animal abuse. Sadly, if meat cattle (apposed to dairy cattle) were no longed eaten, these animals would cease to be. Which farmer in their right mind would feed, care & breed a creature with no use ? This may be sad but it is a fact.
(Edit. I always buy free range beef/chicken/eggs, but I would be happier if I knew the killing methods were humane too.)

Vegan Website That senseless statement on rape, tars all the information on that site as 'potential extreme rubbish'. Which is a shame as I feel Veganism for adults is a gentle acceptable way to live.
This website does more harm than good and encourages anyone who reads it to think that Vegans are illogical mad extremists (This is not true, the website just looks that way)
:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Nomilynn]

I read the question wrong and clicked "yes" but I meant to click "no" so the numbers are off. Too bad there isn't a way to edit a poll vote?? :confused:

I also don't believe that dogs and cats can be healthy on vegan diets. I think if we look to wolves and wild cats we will see what their diets consist of, and it's mostly meat. So, I think it's more natural for them to eat meat, and I also believe that it is better for their health.

I am not a vegan or vegetarian but I've always hated the implication that because I eat meat I can't possible be an advocate for animal welfare. That simply isn't true. Like PayItForward stated, killing for food can be done in a humane way, and the animals can be treated better until they have to be put down. Just because I buy and consume meat does not mean that I wish for animals to be brutally hurt or anything.

[Cisco's Mom]

All I know is that there are definitely some dog foods out there that are absolutely nasty!

[veegan]

I appreciate all the input. Lots of differnet views. Unfortunately they are still all against.. heh It is frustrating because I know there are a lot of people who agree with me, and a lot of people who do feed their pets vegan diets with lots of success and know more about the topic, and Im sure they would also have different views/imput, that is for a vegan pet diet.

"I've always hated the implication that because I eat meat I can't possible be an advocate for animal welfare."

yeah I know what you mean Nomilynn. And I hope I didnt make you feel that way, because I always hate it when people make other people feel bad because they arent vegetarians too.

Now, I made the statement about that website, way back before this whole thing got started:

"its that kind of mentality that leads to animal abuse, and just, the reason why so many people still eat animals.. roar."

Let me clarify.. lol After reading it again now, I can see how it must sound like an attack on all non-vegetarians. :O It wasnt supposed to be directed at anyone first of all. And it was kind of a generalized statement, and wasnt written exactly how I was thinking. (Im really bad with words).. I was really having a hard time trying to put what I was thinking into one sentence. I didnt mean to start anything. :p lol I basically just meant that there are too many people in the world, (nobody on PT though! everyone here loves their animals!), who treat animals like they are objects, and who have the mentality that they dont deserve respect and kindness, and its those people who think vegetarianism is stupid. I didnt mean evenyone who isnt a vegetarian is like that, because I know it can be a hard lifestyle change, and I know that some people cant do it for dietary reasons, or they just dont feel its natural, or I dunno, whatever reason, but they at least support vegetarians as fellow animal lovers, ya know what I mean?? That statement was just meant to be against the morons who abuse their pets, or even the people who have pets but keep them tied up outside all the time, people who dont really love their pets. Its that kind of mentality that is sadly shared by too many people in society, the mentality that, "oh they're just animals". THAT is what I meant by that statement. lol

and PayItForward, I would love to have pet cows lol & I know a lot of other people who would and do too. (there are many farm sancuaries). So I dont think we'd let them become extinct. :)

[veegan]

oh yes, I just wanted to add this:

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_659722.html?menu=news.quirkies

the world's oldest living dog is vegan.

[veegan]

I found some more vegan pet food websites.....

http://www.vegepet.com/about.html -this company has been making vegan pet food since 1986

http://www.vegepet.com/stories.html -stories of pets on their food

http://www.veganpet.com.au/ -australian vegan petfood company.

http://www.vegetariandogs.com/index.html -site/book about vegetarian dogs

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/catfood.html -very thorough article on what cats require nutritionally and why you have to be careful when feeding them a vegan diet. (just so you know Im aware of these issues and will be careful. and so you dont think all info on vegetarian websites is onesided. lol)

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/dogfood1.html -same website, but the article about veg dogs.

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/info15.html -more info on vegan pets.

[Nomilynn]

Veegan - I didn't mean that you made me feel that way. :)

[veegan]

okay good :D

[PayItForward]

lol. You want a pet cow.
My Aunt has a dairy farm with loads of cows, if you can persuade her to go vegan, you could have an entire herd !!! :)

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On a serious note, we are not against you or veganism. Though I can see how you feel, as it doesn't appear there are many vegan people on this site.

Vegan folk come out and play !!!

I respect that you, as an adult, wish to be vegan and although I personally wouldn't put my pet on a vegan diet. You sound like you'll be monitoring your pets closely on their new diet and would put them back on a meat diet if needed.

May everything go well and I hope your cats enjoy their new diet.

[Desert Arabian]

Originally posted by veegan
dogs are omnivores, like humans.


:confused: They are carnivores. I have never seen a dog, wolf, jackal, fox, dingo, or coyote chomping on a carrot and eating a salad with french dressing. They have huge canine teeth for a reason, and huge molars to chew the meat. Humans MAKE them omnivores, but they are truly carnivores.

Encarta: Dog Family (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761569837)

I personally would never feed an animal a veegan diet, that is, if the animal was a carnivore.

[veegan]

dude, they are onmivores. they eat MEAT & PLANT. cats are "true carnovires" because they cannot survive without certain things found only in meat but dogs & humans can.

Did you even read that article you posted? It says:

"Like humans, canids have different types of teeth that are distinguished by shape, position in the mouth, and function. The chisel-like incisors, used for cutting food and in grooming, are located in the front of the mouth. The incisors are followed by a pair of dagger-shaped canine teeth used in fighting and hunting. Premolars and molars, located near the back of the mouth, are used for grasping, slicing, and crushing meat and bone. The molars at the very back of the mouth are adapted for feeding on items such as insects, fruit, and leafy vegetation, as well as meat. Some canids include a high proportion of fruits, seeds, and other vegetable matter in their diets."

[veegan]

"lol. You want a pet cow.
My Aunt has a dairy farm with loads of cows, if you can persuade her to go vegan, you could have an entire herd !!!"

hehe! :D okay! ;)

"Vegan folk come out and play !!!"

teehee yes! do! :D :cool: :)

"I respect that you, as an adult, wish to be vegan and although I personally wouldn't put my pet on a vegan diet. You sound like you'll be monitoring your pets closely on their new diet and would put them back on a meat diet if needed.

May everything go well and I hope your cats enjoy their new diet."

I appreciate that, and yes, if they have any problems at all they will be back to a meat diet. And thanks :) I hope they do too ;)

[Soledad]

Dogs are omnivores! Why is this up for debate? It's a fact. :rolleyes:

[RockyRoad]

What an interesting thread this is.

Firstoff, I'm a vegiterrian. I won't be going vegan until my bones have grown more and they do not need the calcium AS MUCH (I didn't say anymore), but I will go vegan.
But I'd never feed Lady or Sally a vegiterian diet. Like most have said, they are carnivores and I won't take them away from that privelage. I have been feeding them meat for eight years, and I am sure they would be unhappy if I suddenly made their choice whether or not to become a vegan for them. I made the choice myself, and I feel that it would be a bit mean to make the choice that I could make on my own for them.
It sounds like you are very confident in your views and are very well-educated about all of this, Vegan. It also sounds like you are going to take lots of responsibility to switch your pets to a vegan diet, and are willing to switch them back to meat if something goes wrong. Good luck.:)

[RockyRoad]

Meat is not the only way to obtain protein. There are eggs, beans, nuts, etc. There are tons of nice vegiterrian/vegan recepies out there, as well as veggie-burgers (although I myself don't like them very much).
I want to go vegan because...well I'll take an example:
Let's take a chicken. When the chicken lays eggs, they are cooked and eaten. This process repeats over and over everyday. Chickens lay eggs to feed the people. Then one day, when the chicken is too old to lay anymore eggs, it is killed and eaten.
I'm not talking about people who own chickens as pets, and love them and care for them. I'm talking about the farmers who raise their chickens for their eggs & meat, and even sell/ship them.
The same thing can be said for cows, goats, & other livestock animals brought up to feed us all the time. Some vegans may feel differently about this or have other reasons for going vegan, but that is just my own belief.

IMHO

[wolf_Q]

Originally posted by veegan
they eat MEAT & PLANT. b]"

Yes, meat AND plants....it's not an OR....

[RockyRoad]

Ah yes, I was posting that from a vegiterian's P.O.V. :o
There are many kinds of recepies for vegans. I am looking at some sites now, but they do not contain a URL (AOL members-only channel sites), therefore I cannot post them. :(
I have found some websites who make nice cookies and baked goods without using dairy products. Although they are not the essential needs of humans, it is just an example of how people can obtain the nutrients without dairy.
I have heard that people now have a vegan pizza, which uses a special kind of cheese that was not taken from an animal...yet I forgot what it was called.
Of course I will know more about it when I become older and am ready to make the commitment. :)

[Tina]

Originally posted by Soledad
Dogs are omnivores! Why is this up for debate? It's a fact. :rolleyes:

No! Dogs are not omnivores! They are Carnivores(genus Canis) I just looked it up. Never were dogs defined as an omnivore, eating both animal and vegetable food, until man captured
and tamed them to use for his pleasure and benefit. Good companions, these domestic
genus Canus , with all the different shapes and sizes into which we have mutated them.
We treat them with the utmost of dignity and respect (save the few brutes that mistreat
them), and most of us think of them as family members. One problem, as our family
member, we have taken them captive and deprived them of the natural food source their
genetic cousins still thrive on in the wild--RAW MEAT.

Here is a link I found: http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/speaker5.html

If you read it there is not a thing says a dog is a omnivore:rolleyes:

As far as it being debated they are not ominvore's get your facts straight.

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by YellowLabLover
:confused: They are carnivores. I have never seen a dog, wolf, jackal, fox, dingo, or coyote chomping on a carrot and eating a salad with french dressing.

I personally would never feed an animal a veegan diet, that is, if the animal was a carnivore.

My dog is 1/2 coyote, and her favorite treat is carrots! I will never argue with the fact that she is OMNIvorous. She was very ill a few years ago, and I cooked her a special diet with miscellaneous vegetables, rice, and chicken breast. (From free-range birds!) Her coat looked phenomenal.....I wish I still had the time to do that all the time....

[wolf_Q]

My dog loves carrots too!! :D Yes, dogs do eat plants, but you can't deny the fact that those teeth were built mainly for eating meat.

Dogs came from wolves...wolves do eat plant type food on occasion, but their MAIN source of food is definitely MEAT.

[Desert Arabian]

Originally posted by Soledad
Dogs are omnivores! Why is this up for debate? It's a fact. :rolleyes:

I am not making a debate, I am stating a fact. Why is that such a problem? I thought you liked debating??

Tina, EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

[Karen]

Originally posted by veegan
dogs are omnivores, like humans.

I think its cruel to supprt the meat industry, and to feed my pets the crap thats found in pet foods.

"What’s Really in Meat-Based Pet Food:

Carcasses of euthanized cats & dogs (some with flea collars and containing sodium pentobarbital used for euthasia).
Unwanted insecticides and pharmaceuticals from diseased livestock (complete with plastic ID tags).
Rotting supermarket rejects including plastic and styrofoam packaging.
Animal parts deemed “unfit for human consumption” (heads, legs, tongues, intestines, esophagi, beaks, feathers, bones, blood, lungs, ligaments, etc.)
Diseased and cancerous body parts from the 4 D’s: dead, dying, diseased, & disabled factory-farmed animals"

When you are going to quote something like this, please link to where you got it, or state your source.

[tikeyas_mom]

what the heck is vegan??

[Nomilynn]

Veegan - question for you :)

In another thread in cat general you said that you were going to switch your cat to a vegan diet. In this thread, you said that cats are carnivores:

"cats are "true carnovires" because they cannot survive without certain things found only in meat but dogs & humans can."

So I'm just wondering how you will make this work? Or maybe I misread you. I'm not trying to be offensive, I genuinely am curious :)

[Desert Arabian]

PCB- Veegans also do not wear make-up, own any leather (obviously), eat any jello, etc.

I also read somewhere that some veegans don't use prescription medication because it was tested on animals.

[wolfsoul]

If I wanted to, I would definatly feed my pets a vegan diet! I don't want to, but I don't think it's wrong. As long as they are getting the nutrients they need from the food they eat, then it doesn't bother me any.

Dogs are omnivores. They enjoy eating vegetables and fruit, and most dog food companies add these, as well as preservatives and corn flour, etc. to their dog food. So if it's not all meat in dog food, they are omnivores. The same goes for wolves. Although they are classified as "carnivores," because they eat berries, they could be classified as "omnivores." The only reason they are not, is because wolves don't generally eat berries unless there isn't enough meat to satisfy them. :)

[veegan]

my my, lots of posts since my last visit!

yes, dogs mainly eat meat, but they eat meat & plant. they are omnivores. I dont know what else to say, its just a fact.

"My dog loves carrots too!! Yes, dogs do eat plants, but you can't deny the fact that those teeth were built mainly for eating meat.

Dogs came from wolves...wolves do eat plant type food on occasion, but their MAIN source of food is definitely MEAT."

yeah thats true, I never said they dont eat meat. omnivore means plant & meat. The dictionary defines omnivore as:

"Main Entry: om·niv·o·rous
Pronunciation: äm-'niv-r&s, -'ni-v&-
Function: adjective
1 : feeding on both animal and vegetable substances"

I really dont know what else to say. I will AGAIN quote encarta:

"The molars at the very back of the mouth are adapted for feeding on items such as insects, fruit, and leafy vegetation, as well as meat. Some canids include a high proportion of fruits, seeds, and other vegetable matter in their diets."

It does not say only domesticaed dogs eat plant & meat because humans made them that way. Anyway..

To Karen, sorry, I posted where I got that from a few times, I think in the original thread from cat general though. That was taken from www.vegancats.com. I posted another, better, link to info about that earlier in this thread. http://www.petfoodshop.com/evolution_3.htm



And now, popcornbird.. Be prepared for a long reply..
"Vegans don't eat eggs, and practically everything contains eggs. Vegetarians on the other hand do. I know nuts contain protein, but how many nuts can you eat? And how can you go without milk or yogurt or cheese? I know you CAN go without it, its just that I would never do it. Soymilk can replace milk but it can't replace the yogurt and cheese and ICE CREAM!"

First of all, you would be amazed how many things DONT contain eggs. In fact, most baked goods (bread, cookies) do not contain eggs. The thing I usually have a problem with is whey which is a milk ingredient. Almost all bread products are vegan.

And there are LOTS!!! of things that contain protein. Lots of vegetables do, (potatoes are a good source just to name ONE of the many), nuts as you said are a very good source, pasta, bread products (esp whole wheat breads), BEANS (all kinds, soy included, and tofu- tofu is soy), etc.

Soy is the main source of protein for most vegans. And sure it doesnt taste the same as meat, or whatever its being used to imitate, but thats because it isnt, its soy, it tastes like soy. lol It took me a little while to get used to the taste of soy, but now (13 months later) I love it. There are tons of differnet kinds of soy meats, and meats made from other things like tempeh. I never got used to soy milk, so I use rice milk instead. Almond milk is also avaliable. And yes, they do make soy yogurt (which I personally find revolting, but I know people who love it), so cheese (also which Ive never found a good vegan substitute for, but I dont miss cheese anymore anyway, even though it was hard to give up at first), and they also make soy chream cheese, & sour cream (both good but not the same of course), and soy ice cream! Soy Delicious is THE BEST brand of soy ice cream, I swear to you I cant tell the difference. I dunno if its cause Im used to soy, havent had ice cream in a while or what, but Im telling you its AMAZING. They sell egg replacers for baking, soy margarine, soy mayo (nasoya brand is AMAZINGLY good), etc etc. And its not like theres only one brand, there are tons of brands of all these products so if you dont like one you can choose another.

Now to address your 1st comment..
"I know vegetarians eat eggs, milk, cheese, etc. Why don't vegans eat these products? I just can't understand. The animal is not killed for these things, and it does not hurt the animal in anyway."

Well Im glad you asked, and this is a very common misconception among most people. (In fact before I was vegan I had the same thought). First of all, yes the animals are killed and hurt. The meat & dairy industries only care about profit, the animals are not treated well, or medicated when ill, they pump them full of chemicals and antibiotics and hormones (which in turn humans consume). Dairy cows are artificially inseminated because otherwise they dont lactate! The female babies are taken and used as dairy cows, and the males as veal. They take the babies away right when they are born. Veal calves are treated horrendusly, kept tied up in dark tiny stalls they cant move around in and can barely lay down. They are not fed nutricious diets, and often suffer from anemia and diarreah, etc. (In fact theres 2 kinds of veal meat, one kind is fed an even worse diet to make their flesh more tender and then they sell it for a higher price). And then, once the dairy cows stop producing at the highest speed possible, they are killed for meat, usually at about 4-5 years of age, where if allowed to live a normal, natural life, they can live 20-25 years. Eggs are even worse. The chickens are kept in tiny cages, 4-5 birds per cage, they cant even move around in. They suffer from disease, and injury without treatment. Their beaks are chopped off when they are chicks because they are so closely confined they peck at and injure eachother. They too do not life long at all. Also, it takes resources to raise livestock. Water, grain, space. And it takes a LOT more of these resources to raise livestock than it does plants. Raising livestock creates a strain on the human population, if there were less animals being raised, there would be more grain, etc to feed to starving people of the world. The waste from these farms pollutes our air and water. Creates runoff, errosion, hurts our streams and rivers, rainforests are being cut down to rasie livestock, animals over graze, ruining grasslands, etc. etc.

Another reason is, a lot of vegans believe that animals have rights, and arent here for human use, and therefore feel that its unethical to use them or their milk or eggs as products, food, etc. A lot of people also believe its unnatural to drink the milk of another species. Humans are the only species to drink milk after we stop needing our mothers milk.

And lastly:

"If you can't eat eggs, milk, cheese, yogurt, or any types of meat, what's left to eat? Even many cakes, breads, and other foods cannot be eaten that way because eggs and milk are very often used in baking? Do you only eat veggies, soy stuff, and grains? How do you get your nutrition like that? With supplement pills? Again, this question is asked out of curiosity and not meant as an offense, so I hope no one minds. Personally I would NEVER go vegan. Its just way to inconvenient and you lose the variety of foods you would eat otherwise, even if you were vegetarian."

There are tons of things to eat. TONS of recipies, tons of foods!! MANY cultures in the world rarely eat meat, theres a lot of awesome enthic foods/recipies, and I know most vegans, myself included, say after going vegan they actually eat MORE variety, and try more new foods than they ever did when they ate animal products because theres so many other foods out there that people normally wouldnt try. Its pretty easy to get all the nutrition you need in a vegan diet. The vast majority of the population gets way too much protein than they need. But yeah for people like me who dont cook, I do take a multivitamin (well I took that before I was veg) and I also take a calcium pill each day. There is protien powder you can buy if you have problems getting adequet protein (and no they arent all gross tasting, Ive seen some that are flavourless, and you can also mix it into things like cake batter, etc). Its easy to make meals like tacos, chilli, spaghetti, stir fry, and things liek cookies and cake, with all the immitation foods avaliable, and really they dont taste much different, and they are still good.

If youre curious I recommend soy delicious ice cream, and gardenburger makes an AWESOME riblet. Boca burgers are good too, and I also like lite life brand meats (such as smart dogs). Most stores sell this stuff too, QFC, Fred Meyer, Krogers, Trader Joes too, all have natural food sections, and I know some stores (fred meyer) sell gardenburger and boca products in the frozen meat sections. Theres also all kinds of vegan chocolates avaliable at stores and TONS of vegan products online. Once you make the lifestyle change and figure out what products, brands, and recipies you like its easy. That was my experience anyway! :D

Im sure you will wonder where to get proof of all this, so, here are some links:
http://www.factoryfarming.com
http://veganaction.org/
http://www.veganoutreach.org
http://www3.mistral.co.uk/traub/faqvegan.html
http://www.emagazine.com/january-february_2002/0102feat1.html
http://www.afa-online.org/vegan.html
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020715/story.html

and finally, yes I know its PETA, but they have video proof:
http://www.goveg.com -main veg page
http://www.goveg.com/l-intro.html -intro to veganism
http://www.goveg.com/r-mym.html -meet your meet real player videos

[veegan]

"what the heck is vegan??"

A vegan is a person who does not consume, use, wear, etc any animal products. They do not eat meat, eggs, dairy, geletin (animal bones) or honey. They do not wear leather, fur, down, silk, etc. And they do not use products (like makeup, household cleaners, soap, toothpaste, etc) that contain animal products or products that have been tested on animals. There is no real exact definition of veganism, and each person decides for themself to what degree they will practice it. There is no way to be 100% pure vegan, but the goal of a vegan is to cause the least amount of suffering they can.

And yes some vegans may choose not to use prescription drugs because I believe they are required by law at this time to be tested on animals before use by humans (I could be wrong about that!), but like I said, it is impossible to be 100% vegan, and some things cannot be avoided, and each vegan must decide to what degree they practice, and where they draw the line.

"In another thread in cat general you said that you were going to switch your cat to a vegan diet. In this thread, you said that cats are carnivores:

"cats are "true carnovires" because they cannot survive without certain things found only in meat but dogs & humans can."

So I'm just wondering how you will make this work? Or maybe I misread you. I'm not trying to be offensive, I genuinely am curious "

yes, thats true, but as it says on vegancats.com:
"Although Taurine naturally occurs only in animal tissue, synthetic Taurine has been produced on a large scale since about 1930. In fact, many meat-based pet foods utilize synthetic Taurine to meet nutritional requirements as well (most naturally-occurring Taurine is washed away during the rendering process)!"

"Unlike humans and dogs, cats cannot synthesize vitamin A from the carotene in plants. Deficiency affects hearing and vision. Cats need a preformed source of arachidonic acid which most mammals synthesize from linoleic acid found in most plants - especially seeds. Deficiency can result in reproductive failure. Cats need also a preformed source of taurine, an amino acid which they would usually obtain from flesh foods. Deficiency causes degenerative heart disease and degeneration of the retina (blindness). Vitamin A, taurine and arachidonic acid are all added to the Vegecat and Vegekit supplements. These nutrients are obtained from a non-animal source. For those of you who would say that it is more natural to obtain these nutrients in the form of meat (usually out of a tin) then please note that pet food manufacturers themselves often use a non-animal form of taurine to supplement their products because it is cheaper."
this was found here: http://www.vegansociety.com/html/info/info15.html

[veegan]

"You don't even eat honey?!?!?!?!?!

OMG! Do you know how good honey is for us?!?!

OMG. I think that's very extreme.

Honey is a blessing from God. It has the cure for so many diseases and is very good for human health."

whoa now. lol! ;) a blessing from god! hehe I dont see how it is extreme! :eek: I probably only ate honey like a few times a year before I was vegan. How is being compassionate toward other creatures extreme? And actually, me personally, am not so strict about avoiding honey (Ive eaten bread with honey in it). I just try to avoid eating it straight, or in large amounts. Not only because it just goes along with the basic vegan beliefs, but also because as with any product, they are being mass produced and Im sure theres abuse involved. Honey is one of the issues Im less familliar with, but I did find this article the other day about why bees arent vegan! (I havent read it yet though! haha!) But heres the link!! :D: http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

And Im interesting in hearing how honey is benifitial?? Ive never heard anything about it.

[RubyMutt]

Originally posted by veegan

And Im interesting in hearing how honey is benifitial?? Ive never heard anything about it.

I am genuinely curious also. I detest the taste, smell, texture, etc etc... of honey and try pretty hard to avoid it. :rolleyes:

Although, I do love soy and try to keep a good amount of it in my diet. :D

[Uabassoon]

Just responding to a comment made earlier about having a pet cow. My parents have to pet cows a mom and it's calf. They are really cool when I go home to visit I always go and see how the cows are doing and pet them. My parents own a small ranch and some of the animals are for consumption and they eat the eggs from our chickens, but the cows are nothing more than pets. I'm not really sure why they decided they wanted cows as pets but they sure are a nice addition.

[wolf_Q]

I'd never heard anything about honey being that beneficial either. Interesting to know. :)

I honestly don't really like honey...honey flavoring is good...and in small amounts in things its good.....but the taste of just plain honey gags me. Bleh.

[RubyMutt]

Originally posted by popcornbird
When I have a flu or cold, I don't take ANY medicine but honey. When I take honey, it clears up in just a day or two. When I take regular cough syrup, it takes weeks!

Wow :eek: That's awesome. :) I think if I did with honey while I were sick it would just make me throw up :rolleyes:

[Soledad]

I am not making a debate, I am stating a fact. Why is that such a problem? I thought you liked debating??


I love debating. Almost as much as you love sending angry and belligerent PMs. :rolleyes: ;)

What I am saying is, there's no point in putting your opinion on a fact. Either dogs are or are not omnivorious. What we should be discussing is whether or not veganism is healthy or appropriate for pets(omnivorious or not), since that is the topic on hand.

[Soledad]

Oh, Pops, honey is an amazing healer!!! They make manuka honey here and it has the most amazing healing properties for burn victims. :)

[CathyBogart]

Originally posted by popcornbird

OMG! Do you know how good honey is for us?!?!


Yay, bee vomit. :P

[Soledad]

Bee vomit. Yeah, maybe. But we're eating eggs, muscle tissue and cow juice. :p

[RubyMutt]

Originally posted by popcornbird
. If you buy organic honey with the comb in it, it tastes very good. :) Some people eat the comb. They say it tastes like candy.

eww... that's the worst...
I'm just not a honey person :rolleyes:

[RubyMutt]

Although I do not believe in organized religions, those are some very interesting sites. (Although I'm not done looking through them all yet). Thanks for posting them. :)

[Desert Arabian]

Originally posted by Soledad
I love debating. Almost as much as you love sending angry and belligerent PMs. :rolleyes: ;)

Oh you mean, one of the two PM's I sent you like way back in 2000. I have only PM'ed you twice, at least, according to my PM box. :rolleyes:

Oh yea, I forgot to type this: I have never eaten honey in my life. My grandpa used to eat it by the spoon-full. (*gags*) :p

[petsbestern]

IMHO, most vegans are extremists, and PETA people are super extremists. No offense to anyone, that's just what I believe.

Ps. I know honey is amazing and a great cure for many illnesses! Its awsome, but I think it tastes nasty. :(

[veegan]

how can you make a statement like that and just say "no offence"?? Well Im sorry but I do take offence to that. People always throw this word extremist around. What the heck does that even mean anyway? And what in the world is extreme about wanting to be compassionate to other living creatures, caring of our environment, and conscious of my own health?

PETA is a completely different topic that I dont think should be discussed. And besides, PETA has hundreds of members, but not all of them agree with everything they do.

[aly]

Eeeeek, never read about bee vomit and cow juice while trying to eat lunch! :D

[DoggiesAreTheBest]

I have been a vegetarian for 8 years now and was vegan for 3 of those 8 years. I had to go back to eating cheese and eggs because I became very ill and weak. I am not saying that being a vegan made me ill. Just toss in an eating disorder with that kind of diet and you are asking for trouble.

I drink soy milk and don't eat eggs too often. I do eat cheese and honey. My husband is not a vegetarian and do not force him into my eating habits. Neither will I feed my dog a vegetarian or vegan meal. I believe that Drake need to eat meat. He is an omnivore. So he gets both meat and veggies.

[Uabassoon]

And besides, PETA has hundreds of members, but not all of them agree with everything they do.

Thank you, I am one of those members. But when I tell people I'm a PETA member they think that it automatically means that I agree with everything that they do. I agree with the majority and I think PETA does many wonderful things, but I don't exactly agree with everything that they do.

[veegan]

"Thank you, I am one of those members. But when I tell people I'm a PETA member they think that it automatically means that I agree with everything that they do. I agree with the majority and I think PETA does many wonderful things, but I don't exactly agree with everything that they do."

exactly, me too

[Soledad]

Oh you mean, one of the two PM's I sent you like way back in 2000. I have only PM'ed you twice, at least, according to my PM box.


Hmmmm....I wasn't a member in 2000. And considering that the one you sent me instructing me to get a sex toy was about the war, I imagine it was fairly recently.

[cali]

I dont agree with a veegan diet for animals. but the longest living dog was border collie on a vegan diet so I cant say it is bad.

[Desert Arabian]

I must admit, I do like somethings PETA does. But mostly, I don't care for the organization. I was on the website a while back and read a huge article about circus animal abuse...which made me sad, and now I refuse to go to the circus. Don't worry, I won't say any details.

There were also some other articles which made me think once or twice, and then there were some that made me laugh until my stomach cramped. :p :)

[veegan]

Okay I wanted this to be clarified. A few other people informed me on what the real story was relating to this comment:

"There were some dogs on a show on Animal Planet that went blind from a vegetarian diet (sorry I can't give more details because I forgot what show it was)."

Im suspecting this is what Aly was probably thinking of. On Animal Planet recently, (I taped this actually, because I remember hearing the commercial, plus I love the show, but havent watched yet, so I didn’t associate it with Aly’s post until my friend who saw it told me about it today after reading Aly’s post), on the series, Animal Precinct, there was a woman who took in stray CATS (not dogs) because she didnt want them to be homeless, and what she was doing, was feeding them like, a human vegetarian diet, of I think just potatoes and rice or something, so not only was that not nutritionally complete, but they didnt like it, so they were barely eating any of it. So they became really thin, and I think neighbours saw and reported it. When the ASPC went to assess the situation they discovered that she didnt really want the cats but she didnt want them to be homeless. She had way too many than she could handle in the first place, there were no litter boxes even. She didnt know that they needed taurine to survive (lack of taurine is what eventually causes blindness in cats). So they took the cats off her hands, and they all were treated, fed, etc and all of them lived. Only one was totally blind and then one other was partially blind.

SO, my point is, it was because not only were they not getting enough food, but they weren't getting the nutrients that they need, all of which are in vegan dog & cats foods like Evolution and Vegepet, etc. So I dont want anyone to think that situation is a common one. It was just a case of someone who didnt know what they were doing, someone who was naive and irresponsible.

[aly]

I saw that show too. But the one I was referring to was with dogs.

[luckies4me]

The lady was not how you make her out to be. She had problems mentally which was SO VERY OBVIOUS! These people DO NOT understand what they are doing!


They did not take all her cats away, they left the dog and a few of her original cats. The dog was fat and healthy, the cats were fed rice mixed with the canned cat food she had, as well as potatoes. She was trying to save money by mixing the canned food with the rice. They people do not need to be scolded, they need to be helped and educated. It was obvious she wasn't trying to starve them, she just didn't know better. Now that she knows and has less cats she can properly care for them and feed them a better diet. As you know the lady was a vegetarian and was trying to make her cats vegetarians as well gradually, but she didn't know it was bad for them. Now she knows, the cats are taken care of and hopefully they will keep an eye on the lady etc.

[luckies4me]

As far as meat goes, I LOVE meat!!! :D



Yes as most people I hate the way meat animals are raised but NOT ALL are raised that way. Our meat comes from free range chickens and cattle. The meat we eat is organic. The animals are not pumped with antibiotics and our diary cows are not impregnated just for milk, so you Vegan need to do more research. Think about it, is there really ANY humane way to kill an animal besides euthanasia by needle? I don't think so. But these animals are here for us to consume so we eat them. GOD made them for us to eat, to raise etc.


I could not live without meat, or I would go crazy. I crave the taste of it! I love chicken, corned beef (don't really like any other kind of beef besides corned beef) pork etc. When I buy a new house I want to raise my own food. I want to have my own chickens, both for meat and eggs, dairy cows which I could get milk of of if they are pregnant, and possibly my own cattle. I don't really enjoy the taste of pork but if I did want to eat some I would rather it come from my house than a slaughter house.


Poeple hunt, that is how we have always lived. Deer, Elk and other animals are also consumed. Yes they don't die pleasent but they are at least EATEN, not wasted, and most hunters also use the pelts or fur as well.


To me being Vegan is just weird, but that is my opinion. I can't see not doing something that is natural to us humans. We have eaten meat for so long and LIVED, why stop now? I love cheese and milk. As far as Humans being the only ones who drink the milk of other species that is NOT true. I have seen several racoons drinking the milk of diary cows. Yes they don't do this everyday but they don't have the access to teats 24/7. They don't know how to pump milk from a cow and stick it in a glass, if they could I am sure they would do it. Same as cats. Cats drink milk, you know they would drink a lot more if they could find it in the wild. These racoons are wild, feeding of the milk on the diary cows. So how can you say we are the only ones? That makes no sense. :rolleyes:

[lv4dogs]

This is not intended to offend anyone. I love animals & do eat some meats, not store bought though (fresh free range & fresh farm animals w/ no additives) & my dad was a butcher when I was growing up so not eating meats in my house was pure sin!. I highly respect vegans but it is just something I personally can not do.
Personally I would not deprive my animals from meat. I understand dogs are omnivores but that means they also eat meat. If a lot of research is done & you can provide your animal with a balanced healthy vegan diet than go for it. I really hope that people that do feed vegan diets to their animals have a vet that specializes in that & has regular checkups & tests done to make sure the animal is in great health.
Just my 2 cents

[veegan]

luckies4me, I have not seen the show and I was just typing exactly what my friend told me happened. I didnt mean to say she was bad, I just wanted to make it clear that that story was an extreme one and isnt a good argument against feeding pets a vegan diet.

And as for your other post... okay, first of all, theres nothing regulating free range animals. theres no definition of free range. it usually just means the animals arent in cages, but they are jammed into a barn with hundreds of other chickens, they dont feel the grass, they dont live normal lives. so perhaps youre the one who needs to do more research. and besides theres more to being vegan than that. a lot of vegans, myself being one of them, feel it isnt right to use animals as products. They deserve to be treated with respect, and they arent here simply so humans can utilize them. And secondly, raising livestock creates enormous strain on our environment. I have already been through all of this in my posts, and please go to the links I posted earlier in this thread! There is tons of info at off of them, way better than I could ever repeat/rememeber.. Pretty much all those links talk about the ethics, the health and the environmental reasons. So please go read that before you start writing more uninformed replies. And here is a quote from a recent article on vegetarianism publish in Time magazine:

"Pimentel argues that vegetarianism is much more environment-friendly than diets revolving around meat. 'In terms of caloric content, the grain consumed by American livestock could feed 800 million people—and, if exported, would boost the U.S. trade balance by $80 billion a year.' Grain-fed livestock consume 100,000 liters of water for every kilogram of food they produce, compared with 2,000 liters for soybeans. Animal protein also demands tremendous expenditures of fossil-fuel energy—eight times as much as for a comparable amount of plant protein. Put another way, says Pimentel, the average omnivore diet burns the equivalent of a gallon of gas per day—twice what it takes to produce a vegan diet. And the U.S. livestock population—cattle, chickens, turkeys, lambs, pigs and the rest—consumes five times as much grain as the U.S. human population. But then there are 7 billion of them; they outnumber us 25 to 1."

And heres some links to info about free range myths:

http://www.upc-online.org/freerange.html

and:

“Most consumers believe "free-range" hens and cows live happily and peacefully until they are slaughtered. But no laws or standards regulate the use of terms like "free-range" and "free-roaming." Unfortunately, even these vague claims are rarely verified; the USDA relies "upon producer testimonials to support the accuracy of these claims," which are usually unsubstantiated. In fact, common cruel industry practices used in factory farms, such as debeaking, forced molting, and literally throwing away male chicks at birth, also take place at many "free-range" farms. Of course all the animals are slaughtered whenever it is deemed most profitable. According to The Washington Post Magazine, the term "free-range," especially in the case of birds, "doesn’t really tell you anything about the [animal’s] quality of life, nor does it even assure that the animal actually goes outdoors." From the "free-range" hen who smells fresh air for the first time on the way to the slaughterhouse to the "humanely raised" dairy cow whose male baby is taken away from her at birth and sold to veal farmers, all animals raised for food suffer and are exploited. Even small, family-run dairy farms often have no choice but to send their older cows to slaughter and their newborn males to veal farms.”
http://www.askcarla.com/ac/tempfaq/FAQ.asp?CategoryID=5&Category=Veg

Now I don’t know, maybe not all free-range farms are like this, but there really isnt anyway to know. And besides, the vast majority of meat & dairy & eggs etc in the world are raised on factory farms. They distribute all over the place. How do you know the meat or eggs or milk in the food you eat at a restaurant wants from a slaughterhouse? Or the milk and eggs in the baked goods, or other foods you buy from the store pre-made arent from a factory farm? See what I mean? AND there are lots of health issues involved in consuming animal products. There have been many studies that strongly link consuming meat, dairy, eggs, etc to many health problems, such as heart disease, some cancers, osteoporosis, etc. I know Kater knows a lot about this, more than I do! (Please speak up dude! lol) And I really dont think its fair to bring God into it because there are a lot of people who dont believe in God, people who believe god did different things than other people believe, etc etc. Its just opinion. But here is one site you might be interested in:

http://www.jesusveg.com/ -religion & vegetarianism

“Was Jesus really a vegetarian?
Many biblical scholars believe that Jesus was a vegetarian. Jesus’ message is one of love and compassion, and there is nothing loving or compassionate about factory farms and slaughterhouses, where billions of animals live miserable lives and die violent, bloody deaths. Jesus mandates kindness, mercy, compassion, and love for all God’s creation. He would be appalled by the suffering that we inflict on animals just to indulge our acquired taste for their flesh.
We all have a choice. When we sit down to eat, we can add to the level of violence, misery, and death in the world, or we can respect God’s creation with a vegetarian diet.”
http://www.askcarla.com/ac/tempfaq/FAQ.aspCategoryID=5&Category=Veg

As for hunters.. not many people today hunt for their food. And I dont have any respect or tolerance for hunters. Native Americans however, I can respect. They treated the animals they killed with respect and they used every last bit of it. They didnt over kill, they didnt kill for "fun", they respect the earth.

"To me being Vegan is just weird, but that is my opinion. I can't see not doing something that is natural to us humans. We have eaten meat for so long and LIVED, why stop now?"

There are some people who dont think eating meat is natural, just so you know. And as I said, there have been lots of studies that strongly suggest eating animal products isnt very healthy. (Please visit the links I posted earlier in the thread..) And this is one reason why a lot of people dont think its natural, there are other reasons too, but Im just saying, thats one reason some people choose veganism.

"Q: People have always eaten animal products. Why should we stop now?

A: Never in human history have people eaten as many animal products as we do now. Today, rich and poor can afford to eat these products, largely as a result of the cost-cutting methods used to raise "food" animals. Present-day factory farms inflict massive, large-scale suffering of a magnitude never before seen in agricultural practices. In addition, the human population is larger today than ever before. Billions of people eating meat means that billions of tons of water and grain are being diverted from the world’s poor people and fed to the livestock of the rich; the resultant billions of pounds of manure are destroying our topsoil, drinking water, and ozone layer. In addition, today we not only have medical evidence of the health benefits of a plant-based diet, we also have many easily accessible products, such as tofu, tempeh, nondairy milk, yogurt, cheese, and ice cream, and many other healthful and delicious products that make the switch to a vegan diet easy and delicious"
http://www.askcarla.com/ac/tempfaq/FAQ.asp?CategoryID=5&Category=Veg

As for your milk comment... Okay, it is NOT NATURAL for cats or raccoons to drink milk after theyve been weaned, & especially not the milk of another animal. Your raccoon example is a rare one. There are NO DAIRY COWS in a raccoon's natural environment. And the only reason cats drink milk is because people feed it to them. It is not normal for animals to drink milk after birth. It may taste good, but it’s not necessary or natural.

And its not like cows always have milk in them. They are just like any other female mammal. They only produce milk when they have babies. People artificially inseminate them make them lactate. What is natural about that? And where do you think those babies go when they are born? Veal. And I really do not understand how it got started with cows.. Why not other animals? Maybe its easiest.. I dont know. But I personally feel it isnt natural. (That is just my opinion though, and there are many other reasons why not to drink milk as I have already stated).

And! its not good to feed your cats very much milk because most cats are lactose intolerant.:

"Feeding Milk
Milk is not an essential part of a kitten's diet once she has been weaned. Many cats enjoy consuming a saucerful of milk, but not all cats can tolerate this in their diet. Some adult cats (like some humans) have trouble digesting milk due to a lack of the enzyme, which is required for digestion of the milk sugar lactose, and may develop diarrhea. These cats are lactose-intolerant. If you are not sure whether your cat can tolerate milk, try it out by diluting the milk with water before you offer it to her for the first time."
http://www.waltham.com/index.html?content=http%3A//www.waltham.com/cats/feeding_practices/kittens.html

"We see cats drinking milk in commercials, old tv shows and the like. But the fact of the matter is that most cats are lactose intolerant. That means that they can't digest the sugars in milk. Milk also has very little to no nutritional value for cats."
http://www.21cats.org/care/milk.html

"Myth: Cats Need Milk

It is a heart-warming image: It's cold outside, a warm fire is blazing in the fireplace and your cat is lapping up cream from a saucer. But milk products may cause digestive problems a few hours later. Milk is a good source of water and energy-producing carbohydrates, but it does not contain all the other nutrients a cat needs to stay healthy. Many cats are lactose-intolerant - they don't have the enzyme that digests lactose, a milk-sugar component of milk.

Drinking milk can cause loose stools and diarrhea, which strips liquids and nutrients from you cat's system. Milk does not have a place in a cat's diet and should be avoided."
http://www.ragdoll-cats.com/Myths.htm

--------
Okay, Im adding the links to make it more convenient. PLEASE VISIT:
http://veganaction.org/
http://www.veganoutreach.org
http://www3.mistral.co.uk/traub/faqvegan.html
http://www.emagazine.com/january-fe.../0102feat1.html
http://www.afa-online.org/vegan.html
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/
http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020715/story.html

[luckies4me]

First off I don't need to do more research. I have done TONS and I mean TONS of research on meat and cruelty etc. Almost all the links you have posted I have already been to about a gazillion times.


I DO know where my meat comes from. Our chickens are raised about 30 minutes away on a "free range" farm, meaning they have about 3 acrres to themselves with seperate feeding areas, living quarters etc. They are not fed pestisides and fed organically grown grain as well. My beef comes from right outside the city limits from Lone Pine Farms, where I get most of my vegetables, especially squash and corn. I have seen their beef cattle, they live VERY well! You can even go there everyday and feed them if you want. Their diary goats and cows are out for you to photograph and or feed. They also have llama milk, ostrich eggs and jerky, horse milk soap etc. Their animals are never fed antibitiotics. Our roosters have their beaks, and are sold as pets or as breeders and a lot of them are shown at our local 4H fairs. Our older cows get retired, yes you heard right, to local farms as pets or they stay at the farm until their death. They do not sell veal, or slaughter male cows. The babies stay with their mother until they are able to go outside on their own. Anyone can visit the farm and they are open everyday. The most busy time of year is Holloween though when everyone comes to the Corn Maze.


I don't know if you have ever been to Eugene Oregon, but we are the land of the hippies. Even our main Supermarket here is all organic, Price Choppers Market of Choice. Most of our clothes are made out of hemp etc. Now I am not a hippy, but I do appreciate eating healthy food. I have lived this long on meat and I am sure I will live a lot longer unless I get ran over by a bus. I don't eat meat often but when I do I like to know where it comes from.


As far as eating at restraunts, most of the places around here get their meat locally and if not well oh well. I am not going to drill a place about where their meat comes from. They have a job to do, and that is to feed me, and if it tastes good I am satified. :D


Most of my eggs come from the neighbor who lives nextdoor to our house. They are great egg layers but are also pets. Of course they don't lay eggs all the time, so when I can't any from her I go to the Saturday Market.


As far as God, yes I can bring him into this. Of course everyone doesn't believe in God, but there is a reason why we and animals (food) are here. Why is it so bad for humans to eat animals (we are born to eat meat) and not for other animals to eat them? Bobcat, Cougar, bear etc. also eat animals. I don't hear people saying that those animals are being cruel because they eat meat??? That is what we do, we ear plant AND animals, period! If you chose not to that's fine, but I chose to eat what is provided for me and am very thankful for it.

[luckies4me]

As far as posting info on cats and milk. I think everyone and their mother knows that they aren't supposed to get it! I am not 12, it's just something most people know. I am a vet tech, I know this stuff. That is why their are special milk replacers on the market for kittens, like KMR and Esbilac. I have raised several orphaned kittens in my day. My cats have enough dietary issues already for me to be giving them milk.



The point is, yes it's not healthy for them to drink it all the time or even at all, but the fact is they still drink it! I never said it was natural, I just said they do it, and if in the wild they had the chance to come across it, they WOULD drink it! Racoons can be seen drinking milk from diary cows all the time. Yes the dairy cows were not always there, but racoons are opportunistic animals, and if there is a dairy farm nearby you better believe if they come across a cow they will milk it! I don't even give my cats milk....well sometimes I let them lick the leftover milk from my cereal bowl, but that's it. Almost everything you are typing I already know and I am sure a lot of other people do to. Ask how many people here on this board give their cat milk? I am sure almost all of them know it is bad for cats to drink it.


As far as diseases and cancer goes, if you have a well balanced diet and don't eat meat all the time you will stay healthy, unless you have bad genes. I don't eat meat much, most of what I eat is vegetables and pastas, but I do eat meat about twice a week, mostly fish and chicken. In limited amounts you can be healthy eating meat. I thin kit is funny how you always point out how bad a meat based diet is but always fail to show the side of vegetarianism that is bad. Some people cannot absorb all the nutrients from pills, some are allergic to peanuts etc. Anyway you eat, there can ALWAYS be complications. What about vegetables that have insectiside sprayed on them that people cosume? You think it is healthy for the air to be spraying chemicles to protect the precious plants all the time? Do you eat organic veggies and fruits? If not how do you know your body isn't binding up deadly chemicles in your kidneys or liver? The point is, any diet can be healthy if you watch what you eat and live right. And that's all there is to it, it's called a BALANCED diet!

[luckies4me]

Also cows are not the only animals that provide milk. Milk also comes from yack, goats, llama and even camel milk! Some people are even utilizing the milk from guanacos, which is said to be healthier than cows milk.

[Desert Arabian]

Originally posted by veegan
[B]As for hunters.. not many people today hunt for their food. And I dont have any respect or tolerance for hunters. Native Americans however, I can respect. They treated the animals they killed with respect and they used every last bit of it. They didnt over kill, they didnt kill for "fun", they respect the earth.

So, you are basically saying hunters now a days don't give respect to animals and they don't use every last bit of the animal? Poachers and unethical hunters don't, but ethnical hunters do. Each year hunting organizations (Ducks Unlimited, Whitetails Unlimited, etc) spend millions of dollars funding for wildlife conservation, wildlife medical treatment, etc. If it weren't for hunters, the wild turkey would be extinct- it was hunters who donated money to the National Wild Turkey Federation to fund for their comeback, which is now 4.2 million strong.

My father and I have 100% respect for all the animals we hunt. We also use just about everything from the animal. We also donate money each year to fund for wildlife conservation. Once and a while we donate our game to the local food pantry to help feed the poor.

Don't mean to make you mad/start an argument, and sorry if I read your post wrong. I just wanted to state my facts/opinions as a hunter. Thanks. :)

[Desert Arabian]

Originally posted by luckies4me
Also cows are not the only animals that provide milk. Milk also comes from yack, goats, llama and even camel milk! Some people are even utilizing the milk from guanacos, which is said to be healthier than cows milk.

That's a good point, I really didn't think about that! :D

[veegan]

Well Im glad you know where your food comes from and have been there. More people should be doing the same. But the vast majority of the world does not, and there are simply not enough farms that are good like the one you go to, and the demand for animal products is so high that there could not be enough farms like that to make everyone happy. Unless people start lessening their meat intake to like you said you do, only a few times a week or less there will never be a way to produce enough food without having factory farms.

And again, raising livestock for food creates a horrendous strain on the environment.

And Im not trying to make you a vegetarian, it is a choice each person has to make. Im simply writing the facts and clarifying for the people who have posted here why vegans choose to be vegans. Im glad you are aware of the issues, and that is fine if you have decided that it is not for you. I respect your decision as I hope you respect mine. However, the majority of our society DO NOT know these things.

”As far as eating at restraunts, most of the places around here get their meat locally and if not well oh well. I am not going to drill a place about where their meat comes from. They have a job to do, and that is to feed me, and if it tastes good I am satified.”

Yeah “oh well”. “If it tastes good I am satisfied”. Right. That’s pretty much the attitude most people have about eating meat and factory farms. Real compassionate.

”As far as God, yes I can bring him into this. Of course everyone doesn't believe in God, but there is a reason why we and animals (food) are here. Why is it so bad for humans to eat animals (we are born to eat meat) and not for other animals to eat them? Bobcat, Cougar, bear etc. also eat animals. I don't hear people saying that those animals are being cruel because they eat meat??? That is what we do, we ear plant AND animals, period! If you chose not to that's fine, but I chose to eat what is provided for me and am very thankful for it.”

Like I said.. that is just opinion. Just like it is opinion that some people believe the opposite.

And no those animals arent being cruel because they don’t have the ability to make moral and ethical decisions. I never said its cruel to eat meat, I said the way animals are being treated at MOST farms (almost all farms) is cruel, and more people should be aware of it, because they arent.

“As far as posting info on cats and milk. I think everyone and their mother knows that they aren't supposed to get it! I am not 12, it's just something most people know. I am a vet tech, I know this stuff.”

And I have to disagree. Most of the people Ive talked to when they hear that cats are lactose intolerant are very surprised. And I never said you were 12, I never implied you were 12. And how should I know you’re a vet tech? And what does any of that have to do with anything?

”The point is, yes it's not healthy for them to drink it all the time or even at all, but the fact is they still drink it! I never said it was natural, I just said they do it, and if in the wild they had the chance to come across it, they WOULD drink it! Racoons can be seen drinking milk from diary cows all the time. Yes the dairy cows were not always there, but racoons are opportunistic animals, and if there is a dairy farm nearby you better believe if they come across a cow they will milk it! I don't even give my cats milk....well sometimes I let them lick the leftover milk from my cereal bowl, but that's it.”

Well my point is, it isnt in the wild for a reason, because they don’t need it. Its not normal, its not HEALTHY. Maybe they would drink it if it was there, maybe not. But its not there because its not natural. That is just a hypothetical situation that would never happen.

”I thin kit is funny how you always point out how bad a meat based diet is but always fail to show the side of vegetarianism that is bad. Some people cannot absorb all the nutrients from pills, some are allergic to peanuts etc. Anyway you eat, there can ALWAYS be complications. What about vegetables that have insectiside sprayed on them that people cosume? You think it is healthy for the air to be spraying chemicles to protect the precious plants all the time? Do you eat organic veggies and fruits? If not how do you know your body isn't binding up deadly chemicles in your kidneys or liver? The point is, any diet can be healthy if you watch what you eat and live right. And that's all there is to eat, it's called a BALANCED diet!”

Yes, there are ways to be unhealthy on a vegetarian diet, but in different ways. If you don’t balance your diet right on a vegetarian diet then you will have problems, But with animal products, there have been many studies linking consumption of animal products to serious health problems like heart disease, cancer, etc. Im not talking about allergic reactions. And I don’t think vegetarians allergic to peanuts eat only peanuts first of all.. And they arent going to be eating peanuts if they are allergic. And yes I do eat organic produce, and no I do not, (nor did I ever say I did), believe spraying pesticides is healthy. Most vegans are against that and buy organic products.

“Also cows are not the only animals that provide milk. Milk also comes from yack, goats, llama and even camel milk! Some people are even utilizing the milk from guanacos, which is said to be healthier than cows milk.”

I know that, but cows milk is the most popular. It was just an example. I don’t understand why any of it is used.

[veegan]

"So, you are basically saying hunters now a days don't give respect to animals and they don't use every last bit of the animal? Poachers and unethical hunters don't, but ethnical hunters do. Each year hunting organizations (Ducks Unlimited, Whitetails Unlimited, etc) spend millions of dollars funding for wildlife conservation, wildlife medical treatment, etc. If it weren't for hunters, the wild turkey would be extinct- it was hunters who donated money to the National Wild Turkey Federation to fund for their comeback, which is now 4.2 million strong.

My father and I have 100% respect for all the animals we hunt. We also use just about everything from the animal. We also donate money each year to fund for wildlife conservation. Once and a while we donate our game to the local food pantry to help feed the poor.

Don't mean to make you mad/start an argument, and sorry if I read your post wrong. I just wanted to state my facts/opinions as a hunter. Thanks."

I appreciate you being as.. well not mad lol as you are considering my statement was pretty ignorant. :-/ Sorry about that. I didnt know about any of that really, thanks for replying. Im glad you donate money & food, and arent wasteful. However, I still disagree with hunting for many reasons, mostly just my personal beliefs..

[popcornbird]

Luckies4me, I agree with most of what you said.

We also know where our meat comes from. We don't buy meat from regular supermarkets and grocery stores. Our meat has to be from an animal slaughtered in a special way (similar to kosher) because of religious reasons, so such meat is not available in regular stores. We buy our meat from small special shops. Their meat comes from the farm of one of my dad's friend's friend. We have been to that farm several times and know how they do it. They treat their animals very well in their life, and when its time for them to go, they take each animal seperately (so the others cannot hear or see it) and give it water before killing it. They do not give their animals electric shocks, etc. and do not treat them inhumanely as the main meat market does. We know where our meat comes from, and we will continue to eat meat. My mother is very careful about what food is cooked in the house. We have 1 fish day, 1 chicken day, and one meat (mostly sheep or goat, sometimes beef) day in the week. The other 4 days we only eat vegetarian food. Fish is healthy, chicken has its benefits and is not bad for your health either. Red meat is eaten in very limited amounts in our household. Meat is not unhealthy and a cause for cancer/heart attacks, etc. if eaten with moderation. Overly eating anything can be bad. If animals can eat meat without being criticized, why can't we? If eating meat was so cruel and inhumane, God would've told us so in His Holy books, but the fact is, He didn't. He even told us that when Prophet Abraham was ordered to sacrifice his son as a test, and before he did it, God stopped him and sent him a ram to sacrifice instead, that indicates that eating meat is not a crime in the eyes of God. God knows far more than me or you or anyone, and I take God's word for this issue. I know people don't believe in God, but I do, and I will continue to eat meat in moderation for as long as I live. If God forbade us from eating meat, I would accept it and stick to a vegetarian diet, but we have God's permission, and I'm sticking to that. We are only keeping our end of the food chain. If you choose to not eat meat, fine. No one's stopping you. :) As for me, I choose to eat meat and no one can stop me either. :p I LOVE chicken! :D:D:D

Ps. You mention Jesus may have never eaten meat. According to religious scriptures and Holy books, Jesus was a shepard. Hmmm........

And yes, in many parts of the world, people drink camel milk, goat milk, buffalo milk, and others.

[luckies4me]

Well lets all agree that some of us disagree and move on lol. Vegan, you are vegan, I am a meat eater and YLL is a hunter. We all do what we feel is healthy for us in our diets and are not trying to force anything on anyone. I think we are all good people but just have different views. Like I said before, if we were all the same the world would be pretty boring!



"Yeah “oh well”. “If it tastes good I am satisfied”. Right. That’s pretty much the attitude most people have about eating meat and factory farms. Real compassionate."


Yes I am compassionate about the animals, but I am not going to walk into a restraunt and ask where the meat comes from. I am there to enjoy a good meal cooked by a chef, not get grossed out by them telling me about the slaughter house they just got my next meal from. Plus most won't tell you where it comes from anyhow. It's a good thing I don't eat out much, and when I do it's usually chicken quesadillas or pastas. I don't eat hamburgers, and I only eat steak if I can chop it up and use it for stir fry. The last time I ate beef was about a month or more ago. I haven't even had chicken or fish in a few weeks! :( :eek: I did have pork chops the other night, which is rare. I don't eat meat much simply for the fact that I dislike beef, pork is fatty, etc. I like chicken and fish because it is lean and healthy. I buy chicken breast and there is hardly fat on it. I only drink milk with a meal or cereal. I also drink soy milk from SILK, because it is full or potassium! :D I am little by little trying to only consume fish and chicken on a regular basis, but if I am invited out for a barbecue you can always count me in! ;)

[Desert Arabian]

It's ok Veegan, I understand. It's just when I see statements like that I like to clear myself from the "mean hunter" list, lol, I guess you could say. And I like to point out the good things about hunters. Thanks for not taking that post harshly. :D

[veegan]

popcornbird- well I dont know really anything about any religion or anything like that, lol I just posted that quote I saw and the site because I thought it might be of interest. I understand some people believe humans were meant to eat animals, and I respect your beliefs. :) And I am glad that you and your family respect the animals that sacrificed their lives for you.

"Well lets all agree that some of us disagree and move on lol. Vegan, you are vegan, I am a meat eater and YLL is a hunter. We all do what we feel is healthy for us in our diets and are not trying to force anything on anyone. I think we are all good people but just have different views. Like I said before, if we were all the same the world would be pretty boring!"

amen to that one sistah. haha Im so done with this thread. lol its exhausting.. :P

[marysmerrycats]

i feed my cats meat. I believe it is each persons choice to do that or not, and I don't think people should get mad at others just because they don't have the same opinion. same with the war or any other topic!

[luckies4me]

Originally posted by veegan


amen to that one sistah. haha Im so done with this thread. lol its exhausting.. :P



It's funny because I was going to cook steak tonight, in stir fry and now I feel guilty that I want to cook it lol. It's really weird when you can put a face to what you eat! :eek:


Perhaps I will make pasta tonight instead. I have some great zucchini and tomatoe basil pasta waiting to be cooked! :D

[Soledad]

I actually have a lot of respect for hunters. At least they are concious of what they're doing. It's far easier to just pick up your meat nice and packaged in styrofoam than it is to have to go out, kill it, skin it, and freeze it. To me it's just a lot more honest.

But I am totally incapable of doing it myself. :rolleyes: ;)

[luckies4me]

Originally posted by Soledad
I actually have a lot of respect for hunters. At least they are concious of what they're doing. It's far easier to just pick up your meat nice and packaged in styrofoam than it is to have to go out, kill it, skin it, and freeze it. To me it's just a lot more honest.



WOW I totally agree with you there!

[Soledad]

WOW I totally agree with you there!


Don't sound so surprised! Lol... :) ;)

[veegan]

"It's funny because I was going to cook steak tonight, in stir fry and now I feel guilty that I want to cook it lol. It's really weird when you can put a face to what you eat!

Perhaps I will make pasta tonight instead. I have some great zucchini and tomatoe basil pasta waiting to be cooked!"

lol yeah it is. and that sounds dang good. i really ought to start cooking a lot more often! im so lazy :/

"I actually have a lot of respect for hunters. At least they are concious of what they're doing. It's far easier to just pick up your meat nice and packaged in styrofoam than it is to have to go out, kill it, skin it, and freeze it. To me it's just a lot more honest."

Yeah it is. That is, the hunters that do it that way. Even though I cant stand Ted Nuggent (haha Im sorry if I spelled his name wrong :O) at least he knows how crappy the quality of meat is in America, and uses all of the animals he hunts. (Hes a big hunter if any of you didnt know). There are some hunters who dont give a s*** about animals and think its fun to kill them, etc. And just like the spectacle of having brought down a huge elk or whatever. That kind of mentality aggravates me. As does the stupid like, farms that have animals there for people to hunt, canned hunts, etc. Its like okay what is the freakin point?? I mean the animal already has a pretty crappy disavantage seeing as you have a GUN, but I mean I know that doesnt exactly make it easy, but then putting an animal in a cage practically.. Its like what a joke! The animal has no chance. Am I right? Isnt that how those farms work? Lame.

[RubyMutt]

Originally posted by Soledad
I actually have a lot of respect for hunters. At least they are concious of what they're doing. It's far easier to just pick up your meat nice and packaged in styrofoam than it is to have to go out, kill it, skin it, and freeze it. To me it's just a lot more honest.

But I am totally incapable of doing it myself. :rolleyes: ;)

Yes, I agree. I used to be very anti-hunters, but then I met my manager, who is an avid hunter, and he opened my eyes a little. It's much more than just a sport to him, he doesn't waste anything... He's also a member of Ducks Unlimited and has told me a lot about what they do. I, myself, could still never kill an animal, but I definitely am not so prejudged about hunters anymore.

My manager also has the most gorgeous German Shorthair Pointer named Bree that goes hunting with him. She is such a cutie! She comes in to work with him sometimes, I love her to death!!

[Desert Arabian]

Shorthair's are beautiful dogs!! My dad's friend has a female (name draws a blank) GSP, and the training it recieved is unbelievable ! My jaw dropped when I watched this dog perform...that's the best part about hunting...:)

[veegan]

i know I love GSPs. so beautiful. and I can imagine! I LOVE watching dogs work. so amazing

[wolf_Q]

Originally posted by veegan


Yeah it is. That is, the hunters that do it that way. Even though I cant stand Ted Nuggent (haha Im sorry if I spelled his name wrong :O) at least he knows how crappy the quality of meat is in America, and uses all of the animals he hunts. (Hes a big hunter if any of you didnt know). There are some hunters who dont give a s*** about animals and think its fun to kill them, etc. And just like the spectacle of having brought down a huge elk or whatever. That kind of mentality aggravates me. As does the stupid like, farms that have animals there for people to hunt, canned hunts, etc. Its like okay what is the freakin point?? I mean the animal already has a pretty crappy disavantage seeing as you have a GUN, but I mean I know that doesnt exactly make it easy, but then putting an animal in a cage practically.. Its like what a joke! The animal has no chance. Am I right? Isnt that how those farms work? Lame.

I've seen all types of hunters. My family hunts, they always have. Just deer and elk. Most of the time they don't even get an animal, but if we do, we eat ALL of it. I could never kill an animal myself of course.

And then there's my friends family who hunts. Her 4 brothers and her dad are very avid hunters. Every year between all of them I bet they get at least 3 deer and elk...if not more. Not to mention the many trophy hunts they do (off the top of my head there's 2 bison, 2-5 moose, mountain goat, coyote, cougar, fox, raccoons, etc. etc. etc.) The also hunt birds like wild turkey and go fishing constantly...rabbit hunting "for fun" too I'm sure. They bring home the meat, but I have NEVER seen them eat ANY of it. Their house is plastered with taxidermy. It's awful. Oh, and then there's the 2 "hunting dogs," Bear and Trusty (RB) who lived their lives in a small pen treated like crap. Her dad does NOT respect the animals he kills...at all...it's just for show.

And I've seen one of those Trophy Elk farms....filled entirely with bull elk with huge antlers...it was so sad...we stopped to see them and they all came running...they were friendly and tame.

I guess my point is....I don't see why it's worse to eat a deer then a cow.....but it's the way you hunt. Quite frankly, I've met a lot of hunters, and the majority of them were idiots with a gun...scarey. YLL, I know you and your dad don't fit in that catagory. ;)

I should shut up now.....Veegan, I must commend you for having so much PATIENCE!! I still don't agree with a vegan diet for pets, but I have to commend you for being so conscience about your diet and the world around you.

Just one more question...isn't it pretty expensive to be on a vegan diet?

p.s. and GSPs *are* beautiful...I love Ladybird!! :D

[veegan]

"They bring home the meat, but I have NEVER seen them eat ANY of it. Their house is plastered with taxidermy. It's awful. Oh, and then there's the 2 "hunting dogs," Bear and Trusty (RB) who lived their lives in a small pen treated like crap. Her dad does NOT respect the animals he kills...at all...it's just for show.

And I've seen one of those Trophy Elk farms....filled entirely with bull elk with huge antlers...it was so sad...we stopped to see them and they all came running...they were friendly and tame."

gosh.. that really stinks. makes me sad and mad.

"Just one more question...isn't it pretty expensive to be on a vegan diet?"

Hmm.. no. Its pretty much the same I think, or less. Some of the products, like shampoo, lotion, soap, etc cost more, but I mean, I dont care. If I have to pay more so animals dont have to have shite needlessly poured in their eyes, its worth is. And as for the food, a lot of things like, grains, pasta, etc, you can buy in bulk and its a lot cheaper than meat and stuff.

Oh and heres a quote I just found on askcarla.com answering your very question lol:
"You’re right that vegan specialty foods, like prepared veggie burgers, etc., are sometimes more expensive than their nonvegan counterparts, but fortunately, they aren’t the only options. Prepared food will always be more expensive than food you make yourself, so buying the ingredients and making them at home will typically save you money. Veggie staples such as pasta, rice, tofu, and beans are much cheaper than meat. The money you save from not buying meat can go toward paying just a little extra for nondairy milk and other staples, like fruits and vegetables. Another suggestion is to buy food in bulk, either at the store, over the Internet, or through catalogs. You can find many vegan mail-order catalogs listed in the classified section in the back of Vegetarian Times magazine."

I dont pay for the groceries since Im living at home right now, so I dont know exactly, so Im glad I found that quote. lol

"Veegan, I must commend you for having so much PATIENCE!! I still don't agree with a vegan diet for pets, but I have to commend you for being so conscience about your diet and the world around you."

lol thanks :):)

[veegan]

Oh, nope. :( No one in my family is even vegetarian. It was pretty crappy at first cause my family was all against it and my dad was a MAJOR a-hole, and no one understood why I wanted to be vegan, and yeah. But now that I know my facts I can explain my reasons to them, plus they are used to my diet by now lol so its all well and good. I get the occasional crap, but that’s expected.. Im used to getting crap/made fun of by people about it. Im getting pretty good at comebacks. heh ;)

And yeah when we go to the grocery store I just get my food and they theirs. Its not a big deal cause they just buy less of what they’d normally get and then get my stuff instead for me, ya know? Only thing is, my mom doesnt cook separately for me, which I certainly dont expect her to, so I have to make my own stuff. So, since Im lazy, :( I mostly eat a lot of like, Boca burgers, fake meat sandwiches, PB&J, top ramen with vegetable bullion, soy dogs, etc. The most elaborate meal Ive ever made has been spaghetti. hahaha I eat lots of fruits and veggies though too. But yeah, it actually is getting boring lately and I dont feel healthy, so Im gonna start cooking. My mom keeps bugging me about how unhealthy it is to just eat packaged stuff too.. and she keeps offering to help me cook some real meals (which is nice/cool of her!) I just havent gotten around to doing it. I have hundreds of recipes though cause Im on a weekly vegetarian recipe email list haha. Anyhoo.. I should go print some recipes out right now! :D

[veegan]

Its not really that hard actually. I mean my family doesnt eat at the table together or anything and my mom doenst make meals everyday either. So I was used to making my own food. She cooks even less now cause she and my dad are on some diet and the food comes to the house on weekdays. lol

Id do the same if I were your mom too. hahaha If I slaved over a meal for my family no way would I let them get away with any whining! If they didnt like it they can make their own food! ;) lol

[veegan]

hehehe cuute!

[lv4dogs]

I don't know if you have ever been to Eugene Oregon, but we are the land of the hippies. Even our main Supermarket here is all organic, Price Choppers Market of Choice. Most of our clothes are made out of hemp etc. Now I am not a hippy, but I do appreciate eating healthy food. I have lived this long on meat and I am sure I will live a lot longer unless I get ran over by a bus. I don't eat meat often but when I do I like to know where it comes from.

That is one of the many many reasons I miss Eugene! I will be living there again within the next 1 to 1 1/2 years! I got all my meat from Lone Pine Farms too! Great place! Don't forget about the saturday market downtown!

[luckies4me]

Originally posted by lv4dogs
That is one of the many many reasons I miss Eugene! I will be living there again within the next 1 to 1 1/2 years! I got all my meat from Lone Pine Farms too! Great place! Don't forget about the saturday market downtown!


LOL When you move back you should give me a holler. ;)


I LOVE Lone Pine Farms!!! Have you ever been to the corn maze? I love the Saturday Market as well. It just started up again two weekends ago. I can't wait for my family to come visit again so that I can take them. There is a man there who makes handmade cat and dog tags out of pressed copper and pounds in the letters himself. They are really neat. :)