PDA

View Full Version : Tony Blaire and the pixies



jonza
03-29-2003, 07:16 AM
Presumably we are now allowed to post contraversial stuff in DogHouse, so here we go. Is this acceptable then?

Tony and the pixies
Terry Jones Sunday March 23, 2003

Dear Tony,

I'm terribly worried that you may be losing your grip on reality.

For example, a few days ago you went on television and announced that after the US has bombed Baghdad "We shall help Iraq move towards democracy."

Now I don't want to be a wet blanket, Tony, but was it a leprechaun who suggested this idea to you?

Since the Second World War, the US has bombed China, Korea, Guatemala, Indonesia, Cuba, Guatemala (again), Peru, Laos, Vietnam, Cambodia, Guatemala (third time lucky), Grenada, Lebanon, Libya, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Iran, Panama, Iraq, Kuwait, Somalia, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia - in that order - and in not a single case did the bombing produce a democratic government as a direct result.

Why do you think it will be any different in Iraq? Or did your fairy godmother promise you this along with a golden coach?

In the same TV appearance you also went a bit dreamy and said that you were going to "put the money from Iraqi oil in a UN trust fund so that it benefits Iraq and no one else."

Hasn't anyone told you that they've been debating how to use the Iraqi oil field money in the White House for months, and there is a strong body of opinion that thinks it's a good idea to use it to cover the expense of the US military operation, which, let's face it, is going to be colossal. $6-$9 billion a month - that's a lot of money for a nation in the economic mess George W Bush's America is currently in.

And then what on earth did you say to that nice Clare Short to persuade her not to resign? She came out of your office saying that you'd "persuaded President Bush that there must be a UN resolution on creating a UN mandate for the reconstruction of Iraq."

Now come on! You've been playing with the pixies haven't you? You know perfectly well that President Bush and his people don't give a goblin's cuss for the UN. Richard Perle, who happens to be chairman of Mr. Bush's defence policy board, only this week called the UN "the chatterbox on the Hudson" - despite the fact that it's on the East River (hope his geography is a bit more accurate when he starts ordering the bombing!)

Perle was penning an obituary for the United Nations and he didn't seem too sad to see it go. "What will die is the fantasy of the UN as the foundation of a new world order...the liberal conceit of safety through international law administered by international institutions."

And what will replace the UN, in Mr. Perle's fairy tale world? Why the good ole USA of course! It will administer worldwide justice and punishment in the interests of "a new century favourable to American principles and interests". Not much comfort there for us elves and brownies.

You know Mr Bush and his advisors can't wait to sell the UN building off as a luxury apartments with stunning views of the East River - sorry, Richard! - the Hudson. (I'm sure they're going to swap the names so as to bring the chairman of the defence policy board's remarks into line with reality.)

And, Tony, I hope you didn't persuade Clare to stay in your government by promising that she could be in charge of all the UN reconstruction and humanitarian aid, because you know that's only going to happen in dreamland.

Mr Bush and his chums want this to be an exclusively US business. They're only allowing American companies to bid for the £640 million worth of reconstruction planned (paid for no doubt by Iraqi oil) and that includes running the health and education services. Poor Clare is going to have a big empty office and nothing to do in it.

What's more the UN won't continue its humanitarian aid (which currently feeds 60% of Iraqis) because the yanks will insist on US troops delivering it. Washington boasts that its soldiers, when they've killed enough people, will magically transform into kindly aid workers. But Justin Forsyth, the head of policy at Oxfam says: "We don't want our aid equipment to be offloaded off the back of a US military lorry, because if we were to do that we would be seen as part of a belligerent force."

So all little Clare Short will have got for compromising her principles and making herself a laughing stock is a short trip to Washington and somebody else's hanky to blow her nose in.

And I bet you don't make her Deputy Prime Minister in the next reshuffle.

Now I can't believe that you have done any of this deliberately. It must be those fairy folk, whispering in your ear. So why don't you look into your heart and see if there is any glimmer of truth and honour left in there, and then chase those goblins and elves away. It could just work.

Best wishes,

Terry Jones

Terry Jones writes regularly for The Observer. To all those readers who have written in to ask if this Terry Jones had anything to do with Monty Python, the answer is yes.

Soledad
03-29-2003, 07:24 AM
I liked it!! It reminds me of this:

Questions? (http://www.minimumeffort.com/nutshell.html )

RICHARD
03-29-2003, 07:58 AM
Originally posted by jonza
Presumably we are now allowed to post contraversial stuff in DogHouse, so here we go. Is this acceptable then?

Tony and the pixies
Terry Jones Sunday March 23, 2003

Dear Tony,

I'm terribly worried that you may be losing your grip on reality.






Dear Terry.

Everyone knows that pixies do not exsist.

That is why you are a washed up comedian and I am leader of one of the greatest nation in the world.

love,
Tony

P.S.

You set the british empire back a few hundred by writing some of that comedy that no one off the island really understood.

Soledad
03-29-2003, 08:20 AM
Dear Tony,

Don't get too upset, after all I'm just a washed up comedian. Surely my two bit article shouldn't ruffle the feathers of the leader of one of the world's greatest nations.

As for the comedy, I'm sorry if Americans are incapable of understanding how your rationalisations are parallel to fantasy and/or fiction. For some reason, my thoughts and humour is thought well enough of to be published on a regular basis.

Love,

Terry

mugsy
03-29-2003, 08:54 AM
Dear World,

After careful consideration and the reading of George Washington's farewell address, the U.S. has decided to rethink the ignoring of our first president's line of thinking. We are now going to follow Washington's wishes and stick to isolationism and focus on the U.S. If anyone needs anything, please don't hesitate to contact Russia or China.

Love,

the U.S.A.

Soledad
03-29-2003, 09:00 AM
Dear USA,

That is not necessary. You see, we exist in a global community which means we must consider the advice of things like the UN. We are fine with you taking interest in foreign affairs. We are not fine with you breaking UN rules and then invading other countries because they do not abide by the UN. If you would like to try some diplomacy, we'd be more than happy to discuss.

Regards,

The World

mugsy
03-29-2003, 09:03 AM
Dear World,

Since the U.S. is perfectly capable of surviving on its own, we have chosen to do so. Please remove the U.N. from the U.S. and place it someplace else, like Moscow, and kindly leave us alone. We no longer care to bear the financial burden of supporting a washed up organization who obviously hates us, so please pack your bags and leave, post haste.

Sincerely,

U.S.A.

Soledad
03-29-2003, 09:06 AM
Dear USA,

Your request is impossible. America needs the world to import and export to, so you will always need to have relations with other countries. Sorry. Perhaps when you go through your adolecent anger, you can think more reasonably.


The World.

P.S. Don't get too worked up into a frenzy when other countries decide to follow your lead and invade their neighbours and install regime changes. Surely you'd understand.

mugsy
03-29-2003, 09:19 AM
Dear World,

We are not angry, just looking out for #1. As for being adolescent, that is true, we have only been around for a little over 200 years, guess that means when you oldsters die that we'll still be around going strong. Just an observation, no offense intended :p . As for exports, we may consider our allies, like Great Britain and such. As for our enemies, you need not apply for aide.

Later days dudes (well, you know, we must keep up the adolescent ideals),

U.S.A.

tatsxxx11
03-29-2003, 09:25 AM
"P.S. Don't get too worked up into a frenzy when other countries decide to follow your lead and invade their neighbours and install regime changes. Surely you'd understand."

No...Surely you JEST!! Follow OUR lead?? That's laughable. If only we could turn back the clock!

Dear Pres. Wilson...We know you meant well, but couldn't you have left well enough alone?? The Leaque of Nations...? Look what THAT led to! Abandon isolationism?? Whatever were you thinking?? We were perfectly happy, reveling in our abundance of natural and man made wealth, riches and resources; our unparalleled strides in technology, medicine, industry and agriculture. After all, throughout history, the world has proven itself perfectly capable of pillaging, plundering, marauding, depredating, ransacking, invading, colonizing, conquering, and destroying it's own and it's neighbors, without the help of us evil, imperialistic, baby slaughtering, war loving Americans. And so many notable, noteworthy paradigms to choose from! From the Vikings to Genghis Kahn; from Atilla the Hun to the Roman Empire, from Mao Tse Tung to Pol Pot...Stalin, Hitler, Saddam. Ah, yes, to paraphrase the words of the bard, "A 'plundering marauder by any other name..." Or was it something about glass houses???

As for the trade issue. The US is the most self sustaining nation on earth; always has been, always will be. We could certainly survive longer, if not wholly, without the "world's" imports than it could survive without our exports.

P.S. Terry, a lot of trash is published on a "regular basis." And sadly, it is pablum for the ignorant and uninformed; those with nary a coherent, considered, independent thought in their tiny little brains.

And in regard to parallel rationalisations to fiction and fantasy" Precisely! I believe the operative words ARE Fiction AND fantasy!

And Terry, while we're on the topic of parallelograms...thanks for the clarification! And here all the while I just thought you were being "obtuse."

Soledad, to presume or even begin to consider, that the declarations and actions of the U.N. are rooted in alltruism is a joke! The members of the Security Council are individually and collectively the most self absorbed, self serving nations on earth! They act in their own best interests, be them political, economic, or geographic. "Pax Americana" frightens you??? A single "world community" sends a shiver down MY spine! (Do I detect the chilling cadence of goose stepping??)

Funny, our dear French friend Chirac is already getting his Parisienne knickers in a twist, fearful that France and French companies are now not being fairly considered in the divying up of the goodies, and the establishing of the provisional gov't. post Saddam! Seems he doesn't want the seemingly irrelevant Iraqi govt. in exile to take IT'S rightful place in the order of things. And Russia, keep sending Iraq those night vision goggles and GPS jammers...I think the U.N passed a little, pesky resolution recently prohibiting such sales?? More on the hypocritical U.N. to follow.

mugsy
03-29-2003, 09:32 AM
Dear World,

This member of the U.S. must continue our pen pal letters at a later time, being that I must get in the shower and get ready to go take Frankie to his forever home!

Never fear I shall return!!

Love,

Mugsy

jackiesdaisy1935
03-29-2003, 09:56 AM
Bravo Sandra and Mugsy, I agree wholeheartedly, and I don't have time for this rubbish, I must go write a letter to the soldier that I have adopted in Iraq and hope that he is still healthy and alive.
Jackie, Perry and Miss Daisy

KYS
03-29-2003, 10:54 AM
posted by jackiesdaisy1935:Bravo Sandra and Mugsy, I agree wholeheartedly, and I don't have time for this rubbish, I must go write a letter to the soldier that I have adopted in Iraq and hope that he is still healthy and alive.>>>>>

Ditto from me too, Sandra and Mugsy.

Karen

Pam
03-29-2003, 04:41 PM
Another ditto! ;)

mugsy
03-29-2003, 06:05 PM
Dear Dissenting Americans,

If you don't like the war, I suggest you go and do your marches elsewhere where they will be appreciated. As for those who think that the U.S. government is so awful, I suggest you shut up about it unless you voted in the last election, at which point, I would ask that you keep your criticism a little quieter until this war is over, unless of course your goal is for us to lose.

To sum it all up, if you don't like it here or how it goes here, then LEAVE!! You do have the Constitutional right to do so, unlike the people of China.

Cordially Yours,

An American Supporter

Soledad
03-29-2003, 06:19 PM
An American Supporter,

Wow. So I guess that freedom of speech thing is just when it's convenient for everyone else. Not so much a freedom anymore. Maybe we should call it "a certain degree of freedom of speech because too much is not convenient for us."

So, if someone disagrees with where their country is going, they should just chicken out and move away? That doesn't make sense. And it doesn't sound very patriotic to me.

I guess the brave thing to do would be to stay and try to affect some sort of change with more than just my vote. But I guess it would be easier to sit on my butt and wave a flag.

American Dissenter

mugsy
03-29-2003, 06:45 PM
American Dissenter,

Please note that there is a certain responsibility that comes with freedom of speech. Also, freedom of speech becomes null and void when it creates unrest, then it becomes a crime. To a degree the protesting is causing unrest, therefore, responsible people should consider what they say before they say it. And, yes, in this American Supporter's humble opinion, people who feel that strongly against the American government should leave because there are plenty of people in oppressed countries who would love to take your place and stand proudly on the side of the U.S. so that they may have the freedoms that so many dissenters take for granted.

Yours in support of America,

the American Supporter (EEWWW that was really redundant!;) )

petsbestern
03-29-2003, 07:43 PM
Dear American Supporter,

Your letter is as un-American and un-constitutional as it can get. The American constitution guarantees the freedom of speech to any American, whether it is appreciated by people like you or not. All protesters have the right to voice their opinions according to the constitution, and if you don't like it, YOU can shut up, because as an American, you have no right to stop other Americans having their voices heard. You have your voice heard, they have their's. Its a fair square. You have no right, as an American, to tell other Americans to leave if they don't like the government's policies. No where in the US constitution does it state that you should leave if you are not satisfied with the government's actions. Just because we do not condone what our government is doing, that doesn't make us any less American than you. You letter was as un-American as it can get, so please go back and read the constitution and the Bill of Rights, and learn to be as American as you claim to be.

Sincerely,
A true American that stands for justice.

mugsy
03-29-2003, 08:35 PM
TATSFJ,

I teach the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, so, I am familiar with them. I stand with the Federalists who believed that the Constitution should be interpreted not read literally. Let's see, now I don't have the right of free speech? I also have the right to my opinion, which I expressed and was not rude when I did it. Perhaps you should work on your argument.

AS

micki76
03-29-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by popcornbird
As I said, those who do wrong will always find way to justify their actions. :rolleyes:

Saddam, anyone????? You feel we're doing wrong? Bush doesn't murder and mame his own people just to have something to blame on Saddam. Bush doesn't rape women, because their fathers, husbands and brothers won't fight for him. Americans are not dressing as Iraqi's and pretending to surrender and then ambushing them.

micki76
03-29-2003, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by popcornbird
We killed half a million innocent children in Iraq by implying sanctions on those poor people, but ofcourse Saddam did that, so we are saving them from it now. :rolleyes:

And remember, I NEVER said Saddam hasn't committed crimes against his people. He HAS, and he is a devil, but we are a greater cause of suffering for the Iraqi people.

Here comes another justification!!!! :p :p :p

Firstly the sanctions were imposed against the country because of Saddams actions. We didn't do it for fun. Not a justification, simply the truth.

You say we're the greater cause for suffering? Once he's out, his people will have freedoms and liberties they don't have now. There will be no more sanctions and no more atrocities commited angainst his people by him and his evil government.

With your line of thinking, Hitler would not have been deposed. There were Germans who agreed with him and wanted him in power. There were Germans who did not. I think it's and atrocity to leave an EVIL dictator in power. If I were living under ANY evil dictatorship, I would welcome the opportunity to have my freedom, to live fearlessly, to be able feed my family. Not a justification, simply the truth.

I hope the Iraqi people enjoy the freedoms they'll have. I also hope the Americans can have some peace of mind that we won't be shopping or going to work or living our lives and be attacked by Saddam's chemical weapons, which I believe he has, after all they're certainly his style.

KYS
03-29-2003, 10:16 PM
I am sure if I am wrong I will be corrected on the
two counts below:

Sadaam through the UN sanctions was allowed
to buy food and medicine for his people with Iraqi oil.
But he inriched himself while his
people starved.

Back in the Gulf War, I also believe Pres. Bush did
want to finish the job, but because of
UN pressure we left. (this is why the kurds and the Sheit
muslims lost trust in us during the uprising 12 years back)
Thus the UN sanctions and also the UN resolutions
that Sadaam was not to have weapons of mass destruction
etc. was put in place.
If the UN had than made sure that Sadaam followed
the resolutions, then the US/Britian would not be
in Iraq today?

Paul
03-29-2003, 11:14 PM
Originally posted by cheetahgirlWho supported Saddam in the Iran/Iraq war? Saddam did not suffer because of sanctions. The children and people did. It didn't bother Saddam. It hurt the people. It killed half a million children and also women and adults. All those children died because of your country.
   How did our country kill these children?

Your country killed more civilians that any country on this planet.
   Why do you believe this?

America invaded tons of countries. Not one earned freedom.
Kuwait, France, Germany, and Japan are not free nations?

You are colonizing the country, which you have no right to do.
   France and Germany were colonizing countries. They stopped. The US has changed a lot too. Please name one colony the US has acquired in the last fifteen years.

They won't because you are not giving them freedom. You are taking over their country and trying to steal the middle east and world. Syria and Iran will be next. Then us and Saudi Arabia.
   Is Kuwait part of Iraq?

RICHARD
03-29-2003, 11:15 PM
we need peace......



just let the boys in BDU (battle dress uniforms) let some steam off
and then we'll get down to the thought of peace


america, still kicking ass and taking names!!!! coming to a country near you!!!! HOORAH




p.s. and let the patriots alone...you know how it feels after you have been punked a time or two......we just want a little payback.

mugsy
03-30-2003, 07:28 AM
Cheetahgirl, get a grip on the reality thing hon. You have NO clue what the U.S. is going to do after this is over. You just hate us so much that you automatically decide the worst (in your opinion). I'm trying to think here, did we take over and colonize Kuwait? No. Bosnia? No Germany? No. Japan? No South Korea? No France? No. You need to get over your severe case of paranoia. Next time Pakistan needs aid, how about if we just leave you alone.

jackiesdaisy1935
03-30-2003, 10:05 AM
Jonza, Soledad, Petsbestern, Popcornbird and Cheetahgirl, You live in a Fantasy World of Hate and Discontent rather than a World of Love and Peace which the Americans are trying to restore, time to wake up.
Jackie, Perry and Miss Daisy

RICHARD
03-30-2003, 11:45 AM
Originally posted by jackiesdaisy1935
Jonza, Soledad, Petsbestern, Popcornbird and Cheetahgirl, You live in a Fantasy World of Hate and Discontent rather than a World of Love and Peace which the Americans are trying to restore, time to wake up.
Jackie, Perry and Miss Daisy



the world of hate must be a terrible place to be,
tasting that bile rising from your gut, so discontent in your
own little world that you have to strike out at the biggest
thing you see, just to make yourself feel better.....
and the constant repetition of long past facts and figures...

oh, did i mention the fact that they may just be a tad ticked off that they are on the losing side of the war???

just wait a few months and you can state your opinions to the
US armed forces, when they come to take over your country

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

micki76
03-30-2003, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by RICHARD
the world of hate must be a terrible place to be,
tasting that bile rising from your gut, so discontent in your
own little world that you have to strike out at the biggest
thing you see, just to make yourself feel better.....
and the constant repetition of long past facts and figures...

oh, did i mention the fact that they may just be a tad ticked off that they are on the losing side of the war???

just wait a few months and you can state your opinions to the
US armed forces, when they come to take over your country

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Nah, Richard, we won't take over ALL their countries. I mean who wants the useless ones with no oil?

Oh, wait. I forgot, we're taking over the WORLD!!!!

Get a grip on reality people. :D Paranoia.

Paul
03-30-2003, 01:55 PM
just wait a few months and you can state your opinions to the US armed forces, when they come to take over your country

   Richard, please do not contribute to the hate and discontent.

      Paul

RICHARD
03-30-2003, 02:08 PM
Originally posted by Paul
   Richard, please do not contribute to the hate and discontent.

      Paul


sorry,


patriotic fervor took over my mind.



i can still post about bile???????

RICHARD
03-30-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by popcornbird
ROTFLOL!!!!!


I'm the kind of person that has absolutely NO hate for anyone. I'm the most hate-free person around. I speak for justice, and get labeled as a hater.


there is a difference between hate and disdain......even
i see that.

jackiesdaisy1935
03-30-2003, 02:30 PM
Did I miss the post or has cheetahgirl not answered Paul"s Questions? I think they are very good questions and I would love to hear the answers from any of you?
Jackie

momoffuzzyfaces
03-30-2003, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Soledad
Dear USA,

We are not fine with you breaking UN rules and then invading other countries because they do not abide by the UN. If you would like to try some diplomacy, we'd be more than happy to discuss.

Regards,

The World
Just Wondering:
Why are you fine with IRAQ NOT abiding by UN rules? They had 12 years to get it together while tossing some of their people into shredders alive who didn't agree with them. Why even keep the UN?

tatsxxx11
03-30-2003, 03:29 PM
The UN has acted in utter and complete hypocrisy by not compelling Iraq to comply with IT'S own demands; by not abiding by IT'S own resolutions.

19 April 2001

Text: UN Commission Condemns "Extremely Grave" Human Rights Violations in Iraq

(Urges Baghdad to cooperate in implementation of resolutions)

Geneva - The UN Commission on Human Rights adopted a resolution April 18 condemning "systematic, widespread and extremely grave violations" of human rights and international law by the government of Iraq.

The resolution finds that Saddam Hussein's regime maintains an environment of "all-pervasive repression and oppression" through "broad-based discrimination and widespread terror."

It strongly condemns the repression of all opposition, widespread torture, summary executions, including political killings and the continued so-called "clean-out" of prisons, the use of rape as a political tool and disappearances.

Only 3 of the Commission's 53 member states opposed the resolution, which was cosponsored by the United States and over 30 other countries. The final tally of the roll-call vote was 30 Yes, 3 No, and 19 abstentions.

The Commission urged Baghdad to cooperate in the implementation of Security Council resolutions and to ensure fully the timely and equitable distribution -- without discrimination -- of the humanitarian supplies purchased under the oil-for-food program.

The resolution extends the mandate of the Special Rapporteur on Iraq for a further year, and requires next year's session of the Commission to continue to review the human rights situation in the country.

The following is the text of Resolution L.19, The Situation of Human Rights in Iraq:
(begin text)

April 11, 2001

QUESTION OF THE VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOMS IN ANY PART OF THE WORLD

Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Israel, Kuwait, Latvia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovak Republic, Slovenia, Spain, Switzerland, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, United States of America

Situation of human rights in Iraq

The Commission on Human Rights,

Guided by the Charter of the United Nations, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenants on Human Rights and other human rights instruments,

Reaffirming that all Member States have an obligation to promote and protect human rights and fundamental freedoms and to fulfill the obligations they have undertaken under the various international instruments in this field,

Mindful that Iraq is a party to the international Covenants on Human Rights, to other international human rights instruments and to the Geneva Conventions, of 12 August 1949, on the protection of war victims,

Recalling;

(a) Previous resolutions of the General Assembly and the Commission on Human Rights on the subject, most recently Assembly resolution 55/115 of 4 December 2000 and Commission resolution 2000/17 of 18 April 2000,

(b) Security Council resolution 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991, in which the Council called upon Iraq to release all Kuwaitis and nationals of other States who might still be held in detention, Council resolutions 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, 688 (1991) of 5 April 1991, in which the Council demanded an end to repression of the Iraqi civilian population and insisted that Iraq cooperate with humanitarian organizations and that the human rights of all Iraqi citizens be respected, 986 (1995) of 14 April 1995, 1111 (1997) of 4 June 1997, 1129 (1997) of 12 September 1997, 1143 (1997) of 4 December 1997, 1153 (1998) of 20 February 1998, 1175 (1998) of 19 June 1998, 1210 (1998) of 24 November 1998, 1242 (1999) of 21 May 1999, 1266 (1999) of 4 October 1999, 1281 (1999) of 10 December 1999, in which the Council authorized States to permit imports of Iraqi oil in order to allow Iraq to purchase humanitarian supplies, 1284 (1999) of 17 December 1999, in which the Council, by means of a comprehensive approach to the situation in Iraq, inter alia removed the ceiling for the allowable import of Iraqi oil in order to increase the amount of revenue available for the purchase of humanitarian supplies, laid down new provisions and procedures designed to improve the implementation of the humanitarian programme and to further achievement in meeting the humanitarian needs of the Iraqi population and reiterated the obligation of Iraq to facilitate the repatriation of all Kuwaiti anal third country nationals referred to in paragraph 30 of Council resolution 687 (1991), 1302 (2000) of 8 June 2000 and 1330 (2000) of 5 December 2000,

Taking note of the concluding observations of the Human Rights Committee (CCPR/C/79/Add.84), the Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination (A/54/18, paras. 337-361), the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (E/C. 12/1/Add.17), the Committee on the Rights of the Child (CRC/C/15/Add.94) and the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW/C/2000/11JAdd.4) on the recent reports submitted to them by Iraq, in which these treaty monitoring bodies point to a wide range of human rights problems and express the view that the Government of Iraq remains bound by its treaty obligations, while pointing to the adverse effect of sanctions on the daily life of the population, in particular women and children,

Noting the observations of the Secretary-General in his -first (S/2000/347) and third (S/2000/1197) reports submitted pursuant to Security Council resolution 1284 (1999), in which the Secretary-General points out the continuing refusal of the Iraqi authorities to cooperate with his High-level Coordinator for Kuwaitis and third-country nationals and Kuwaiti property,

Reaffirming that it is the responsibility of the Government of Iraq to ensure the well-being of its entire population and the full enjoyment of all human rights and fundamental freedoms, concerned about the dire situation in Iraq, which affects the population, in particular children, as stated in the reports of several United Nations human rights treaty bodies, and appealing to all concerned to fulfill their mutual obligations in the management of the humanitarian prograrnme established by the Security Council in its resolution 986 (1995),

1. Welcomes the report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in Iraq (E/CN.4/2001/42) and the observations on the general situation and the conclusions and recommendations contained therein;

2. Notes with dismay that there has been no improvement in the situation of human rights in the country;

3. Strongly condemns:

(a) The systematic, widespread and extremely grave violations of human rights and of international humanitarian law by the Government of Iraq, resulting in an all-pervasive repression and oppression sustained by broad-based discrimination and widespread terror;

(b) The suppression of freedom of thought, expression, information, association, assembly and movement through fear of arrest, imprisonment, execution, expulsion, house demolition and other sanctions;

(c) The repression faced by any kind of opposition, in particular the harassment and intimidation of and threats against Iraqi opponents living abroad and members of their families;

(d) The widespread use of the death penalty in disregard of the provisions of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the United Nations safeguards;

(e) Summary and arbitrary executions, including political killings and the continued so-called clean-out of prisons; the use of rape as a political tool, as well as enforced or involuntary disappearances, routinely practiced arbitrary arrests and detention, and consistent and routine failure to respect due process and the rule of law;

Widespread, systematic torture and the maintaining of decrees prescribing cruel and inhuman punishment as a penalty for offences;

4. Calls upon the Government of Iraq:

(a) To abide by its freely undertaken obligations under international human rights treaties and international humanitarian law to respect and ensure the rights of all individuals, irrespective of their origin, ethnicity, gender or religion, within its territory and subject to its jurisdiction;

(b) To put an end to all summary and arbitrary executions and to ensure that capital punishment will not be imposed for crimes other than the most serious and will not be pronounced in disregard of the obligations assumed under the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the provisions of United Nations safeguards;

(e) To bring the actions of its military and security forces into conformity with the standards of international law, in particular those of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights;

(d) To cooperate with United Nations human rights mechanisms, in particular by inviting the Special Rapporteur to visit the country and allowing the stationing of human rights monitors throughout Iraq pursuant to the relevant resolutions of the General Assembly and the Commission;

(e) To establish independence of the judiciary and abrogate ail laws granting impunity to specified forces or persons killing or injuring individuals for any purpose beyond the administration of justice under the rule of law as prescribed by international standards;

(f) To abrogate all decrees that prescribe cruel and inhuman punishment or treatment, including mutilation, and to ensure that torture and cruel punishment. and treatment no longer occur;

(g) To abrogate all laws and procedures, including Revolution Command Council Decree No. 840 of 4 November 1986, that penalize free expression, and to ensure that the genuine will of the people shall be the basis of authority of the State;

(h) To ensure free exercise of political opposition and prevent intimidation and repression of political opponents and their families;

(i) To respect the rights of all ethnic and religious groups and to cease immediately its continued repressive practices, including the practice of forced deportation and relocation, against the Iraqi Kurds, Assyrians and Turkmen, in particular their deportation from the regions of Kirkouk and Khanaquin, and against the population of the southern marsh areas, where drainage projects have provoked environmental destruction and a deterioration of the situation of the civilian population, and to ensure the personal integrity and freedoms of all citizens, including the Shia population;

(j) To cooperate with the Tripartite Commission and its Technical Subcommittee to establish the whereabouts and resolve the fate of the remaining several hundred missing persons, including prisoners of war, Kuwaiti nationals and third country nationals, victims of the illegal Iraqi occupation of Kuwait, to cooperate with the Working Group on Enforced or Involuntary Disappearances for that purpose, to cooperate with the High-level Coordinator of the Secretary-General for Kuwaitis and third-country nationals and Kuwaiti property, to pay compensation to the families of those who died or' disappeared in the custody of the Iraqi authorities, through the mechanism established by the Security Council in resolution 692 (1991) of 20 May 1991, to release immediately all Kuwaitis and nationals of other States who may still be held in detention and inform families about the whereabouts of arrested persons, to provide information about death sentences imposed on prisoners of war and civilian detainees and to issue death certificates for deceased prisoners of war and civilian detainees;

(k) To cooperate further with international aid agencies and non-governmental organizations to provide humanitarian assistance and monitoring in the northern and southern areas of the country;

(l) To continue to cooperate in the implementation of Security Council resolutions 986 (1995), 1111 (1997), 1143 (1997), 1153 (1998), 1210 (1998), 1242 (1999), 1266 (1999), 1281 (1999), 1302 (2000) and 1330 (2000), as well as to cooperate, together with all concerned, in the implementation of the humanitarian sections of Security Council resolution 1284 (1999), to continue its efforts to ensure fully the timely and equitable distribution, without discrimination, to the Iraqi population, including in remote areas, of all humanitarian supplies purchased under the oil-for-food programme, in order to address effectively the needs of persons requiring special attention, such as children, pregnant women, the disabled, the elderly and the mentally ill, among others, further to facilitate the work of United Nations humanitarian personnel in Iraq by ensuring the free and unobstructed movement of observers throughout the country; as well as their free access, without any discrimination, to . all the population, and to ensure that involuntarily displaced persons receive humanitarian assistance without the need to demonstrate that they have resided for six months at their places of temporary residence;

(m) To cooperate in the identification of the minefields existing throughout Iraq, with a view to facilitating their marking and eventual clearing;

5. Decides:

(a) To extend the mandate of the Special Rapporteur, as contained in Commission resolution 1991174 of 6 March 1991 and subsequent resolutions, for a further year and requests the Special Rapporteur to submit an interim report on the situation of human rights in Iraq to the General Assembly at its fifty-sixth session and to report to the Commission at its fifty-eighth session and also to keep a gender perspective in mind when seeking and analyzing information;

(b) To request the Secretary-General to continue to give all necessary assistance to the Special Rapporteur to enable him to discharge his mandate fully, and to approve the allocation of sufficient human and material resources for the sending of human rights monitors to such locations as would facilitate improved information flow and assessment and help in the independent verification of reports on the situation of human rights in Iraq;

(c) To continue its consideration of the situation of human rights in Iraq at its fifty-eight session under the same agenda item.

jackiesdaisy1935
03-30-2003, 05:54 PM
ROTFLOL!!!!! FROM POPCORNBIRD

You think I'M filled with hate?!?!?!!?!?!?! OMG! I swear! Look who's talking!

I'm the kind of person that has absolutely NO hate for anyone. I'm the most hate-free person around. I speak for justice, and get labeled as a hater. What a joke. I've seen much more hate in YOU than in any other PT'er, sorry to say. You think your country is the best and any one that supports you is great, but all the rest is trash. You hate the French just because they chose not to support the war. Its THEIR choice and they have the full right to make their decisions and we have no right to force them into something they don't want. Look who's talking. Hahaha
I pray for peace everyday, unlike those who pray for war. YOU are the one that needs to wake up and learn to see things from the other eye. Why don't you go take a tour of the entire world so you can open your eyes and see why people think the way they do, so you can learn to see from other point of views before talking



Dear, Dear Popcornbird, so you have seen much more hate in me than in any other PETTALKER. Wow that is mighty powerful. You tell my dogs how much hate I have in me and I think you will be disappointed in the answer. Yes I love my dogs to the max and I love my country with all it's fault or whatever you all want to call it.

Why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said I hated the French? Gee you pray for peace every day, what do you think everyone else does? I never said anyone who disagrees with me is trash, still putting words in my mouth. I should travel the world to see what is going on, I have been to France, England, Holland, Mexico, Germany, Belgium, Switzerland, Venezuela, Canada, Curacao, Trinadad, Barbados, Bahamas, etc. etc. where have you been?
My eyes are open and you are the Joke.
Jackie

Soledad
03-30-2003, 06:02 PM
"Why are you fine with IRAQ NOT abiding by UN rules? They had 12 years to get it together while tossing some of their people into shredders alive who didn't agree with them. Why even keep the UN?"

I'd like you to find the quote where I said I was fine with Iraq not abiding by UN rules. I think you'll find that I think Saddam is disgusting and that there is no question of his human rights abuses. However, these same abuses are happening in China, Zimbabwe and God knows how many OTHER countries.

Did you know that Israel is responsible for even MORE UN breeches than Iraq? When are they going to get invaded?

momoffuzzyfaces
03-30-2003, 06:24 PM
Sorry, but since you made a point of our breaking the UN rules (which we didn't. We had other resolutions already supporting us by the UN), and not a word about Iraq's ignoring all the resolutions, I just assumed you were ok with their actions. As for the horrible things in other countries, the rest of the world COULD help out, if not, we will probably get to them as soon as we can. The world can't expect us to be their policemen, then complain about it when we are.

mugsy
03-30-2003, 06:53 PM
Popcornbird, somehow, I think Jackie has a whole lot more credibility in this if not for any other reason than she has lived in the real world and is slightly older and wiser than you are. All you and Cheetahgirl have done is whine about the U.S. You are both so holier than thou it is disgusting, how can we take you seriously. I would also like to know where Jackie can be construed as being full of hate? You're the one that has bad mouthed the U.S. for the last few months about how awful we are, and then, correct me if I'm wrong, you refer the the U.S. as "your" country when talking to Jackie, are you not from the U.S.?

Soledad, is there ANYTHING about the Bush administration or G.W. that you like? I know you know I'm not a huge G.W. fan, but I can find some things that he has done well.

Richard, please keep up the comic relief....it's a welcome sight! And do we REALLY have to talk about bile....it's not really very appetizing! hehe

Jackie, You Go Girl! I feel the same way that you do on most topics dealing with the war and feelings of patriotism. I have a problem with the ideals that the people who act like we should be ashamed of the fact that we stand behind our country and our fighting men and women have.

Ok, I think I'm done now....I have to go check and see if anyone else posted about our fun day at the dog park!

Soledad
03-30-2003, 06:55 PM
"Soledad, is there ANYTHING about the Bush administration or G.W. that you like? I know you know I'm not a huge G.W. fan, but I can find some things that he has done well."

Um. Not really. If something good did happen, I'd be happy about it. But seeing as the economy is going down the drain and Bushie is still giving away tax cuts to his buddies, I can't say that the man is good for America.

mugsy
03-30-2003, 07:05 PM
You are right there....it seems that Clinton was a brilliant economic president and a lousy Commander in Chief and Bush is a better Commander in Chief and lousy at economics.

mugsy
03-30-2003, 07:27 PM
Ok Pops...name 10 things good about this country.

Soledad
03-30-2003, 07:33 PM
Yeah, Pops, prove that you're a REAL American. :rolleyes:

Christ, it's just McCarthyism all over again.

mugsy
03-30-2003, 07:40 PM
I never accused her of being a Communist! AND I didn't say that she was unAmerican and that she would be thrown out of blacklisted if she didn't come up with 10.

Soledad
03-30-2003, 07:42 PM
I didn't say you did. But it's akin to it (again why are so many people here so literal and incapable of lateral thought??) in that you are asking her to validate her American-ness. And as for the blacklisting, you just don't have the authority. ;)

micki76
03-30-2003, 07:46 PM
Um, I think maybe musgy was trying to get popcornbird to think of a few positive things about America?

mugsy
03-30-2003, 07:54 PM
You're right Micki!

Soledad, c'mon....at least let me dream a little! lol

Soledad
03-30-2003, 07:56 PM
You're right up there as #2 public enemy, Mugsy. I know your plans for world domination would make Richard Perle blush. If only you had the resources.

mugsy
03-30-2003, 08:04 PM
Dang!! I'm always the bridesmaid never the bride! hehehe (Don't tell Mike ok??) I always get the silver medal and never the gold....let's see...any more cliches I can come up with? Now, ask some of my students and I think they would disagree with you...I am Public enemy number 1!! hehehe

Soledad
03-30-2003, 08:07 PM
I'll have to rethink. You are the infamous Gum Nazi after all. :p ;)

mugsy
03-30-2003, 08:16 PM
SEE!!! I'm teaching my student teacher on that well also...she's caught more than I have this last week and I just sit back and laugh!!

micki76
03-30-2003, 08:22 PM
Originally posted by popcornbird
I DID! I never said every thing about America was bad. You guys assume too much, in the negative direction. :rolleyes:

And Mugsy, I wrote that list for you so I expect to get a response, since I'm clueless as to why you asked.

Popcornbird I'm not assuming you think everything about America is bad. I should have sad that Molly was trying to get you to name 10 good things about America because she knew you could and would. I didn't mean to insinuate that she was challenging you, just that she knows you donít ďhate AmericaĒ. And was trying to get something positive out of all of this. :)

mugsy
03-30-2003, 08:43 PM
Thank you Micki. I'm just tired of hearing the "awfulness factor" from you pops. And you can expect all you want, if I choose to answer you I will and if I don't I won't.

jackiesdaisy1935
03-30-2003, 09:07 PM
I'm sorry you feel that way Popcornbird, I never said you were full of hate, I think you should read the posts before you make a statement, what I said was "You live in a fantasy world of hate and discontent, rather than a world of love and peace" that is a far cry from saying I hate you. Please get your facts straight.

I never said I hated France, I merely pointed out that they did not go into the war because they had some sweet deals with Saddam, a far cry from saying I hate France, and also by the way, I did not call France insignificent as you said, not that I would visit there again.

I'm sorry that you are hurt, but I really don't care for someone who tells me that I am the PetTalker with the most hate in them.
That was very immature. Unlike you, who have to pronounce to the world that you don't hate, not a hater, etc. etc. I don't have to do that as my animals and my family and my friends know the kind of person that I am and I don't need to reinforce myself and tell everyone how wonderful I am.
Jackie

shellonabeach
03-30-2003, 10:21 PM
Sitting here from the UK and with a partner who is doing a PHD in politics I will give my take.....which many I'm sure will think it completely naive.

This war was going to happen before the UN gave their report upon their findings in Iraq, both Blair and Bush had the troops ready to roll before the UN inspectors got their mouths open. Like I have heard people saying - what are Bush and Blair going to say if no WOMD are found???

I hate the fact the UK are part of this, I don't really care what the US does but would rather we were left out if it.

If people don't make enemies then they won't be targets for hatred. That's why I wish we weren't in it, we are a lot nearer than you lot to Saddam and I fear bombs that are meant for you will be pointed at us.

On the news all I see is dying, US, UK and Iraq. I see UK people dying through stupid blunders, I see Iraq children wounded and I see Iraq men - old men and some almost still children in arms to keep us out if their country.

Anyone seen that "controversial" video by George Michael? It shows Blair being Bush's lap-dog. It's scarily true. I'm not saying anything bad about you or your country but feel I have every right to slag off my own.

Sarah

popcornbird
03-30-2003, 11:34 PM
I can see that some of you will never even try to understand what I'm saying and why, so there is no point in coming to the dog house and arguing with those that won't listen and can't understand. I too will not answer your posts, so don't expect me to do so. I'm deleting all my posts in the dog house and I won't be coming here anymore. Not because I can't discuss. I CAN. Its because I know this will go on forever and I don't need to waste my time and energy in it and end up getting accused for things that are so false and untrue. See you all at General and the other boards as I won't be coming here for now. Ta ta!

micki76
03-30-2003, 11:42 PM
I think I must agree with you Popcornbird. I donít think Iíll be coming back to the doghouse too much, either. Seems like everyone here just wants to argue and not have an open and honest conversation (me included!! :rolleyes: )and its just bringing us all down. Bye doghouse, hello dog forum and wags smiles!

momoffuzzyfaces
03-31-2003, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by shellonabeach
Like I have heard people saying - what are Bush and Blair going to say if no WOMD are found???
Sarah
Ah, but what will the rest of the world say when they are found? Saddam admitted he had anthrax. He listed it once in his weapons list. So where is it? He could/would never show what he did with it so he must still have it.

tatsxxx11
03-31-2003, 03:44 PM
Re: WOMD....Whether they are ever "unearthered" or not...What about all of the HUNDREDS of gas masks, bio-chem suits and atropine injectors that have ALREADY found? And they would be used for.............lawn treatments????????

No one, not even that inconsequential collection of do nothings they call the Security Council, Amenesty Intl., The Internaional Alliance for Justice (an Iraqi human rights adovacy group) the U.N. Special Rapporteur of the Commission on Human Rights in Iraq, Max van der Stoel, and certainly not the dead and maimed Iraqi citizens, denies that he has obtained them/manufactured them/and used them .


If people don't make enemies then they won't be targets for hatred

Hmmmm, let's see. Saddam has made many enemies; most them, his own people. Thus, if one were to apply your logic, one might rightfully presume that HE is a legitimate target of hatred??

Funny thing, some people are rather indescriminate if not subjective in their definition of "hatred."

UBL hates "me" because I am a Westerner, an American and a Christian...an "infidel." He and his terrorists, with DELIBERATION, forethought and planning, killed thousands of world citizens, including a member of my family, when he ordered his henchmen to fly those planes into the TWC, the Pentagon and The White House. What part of Westerner, American or Christian do you think I should change so that he doesnt' "hate" me???? I don't think so!

George Michael??????? We're not going to go THERE are we???:rolleyes: I think George has been in enough of laps of his own, to keep his mouth shut on this one. I think there are others you might cite who might make your point more credibly; or tastefully.

shellonabeach
03-31-2003, 03:52 PM
Hey I just wanted to say my piece, twist it how you want, I'm not American and do not think the same way.

I just object to seeing the "US and Britain" are wonderful this and that. A large proportion of us Brits think this war is completely wrong, pity you don't get our channels and news, say what you want for America but please leave us out of it.

Sarah

Soledad
03-31-2003, 03:56 PM
You're fighting a losing battle, Shell. PT isn't very anti-war friendly as many of us can attest to. :(

tatsxxx11
03-31-2003, 03:56 PM
Ahhhhhhh, but we do!!:) The BBC, Sky(e??) News, embedded British journalists and plenty of home grown anti war coverage. As a matter of fact, my family subscribes to several European periodicals/papers, listens to the short wave, etc. Most of my family lives in Europe in fact. I get plenty of "world coverage." Thanks anyway!!

And did I say I was "pro war??" I don't recall that.

RICHARD
03-31-2003, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by shellonabeach
Hey I just wanted to say my piece, twist it how you want, I'm not American and do not think the same way.

I just object to seeing the "US and Britain" are wonderful this and that. A large proportion of us Brits think this war is completely wrong, pity you don't get our channels and news, say what you want for America but please leave us out of it.

Sarah



check it out


US Britain




now, if you object to seeing those names together, get real close to the screen and close your left eye and the US disappears...

see no problem....we post what we want and you see what you want to see!!!!


actually we do get your BBC...and we do like it...especially that
Richard guy-anchor person. I like him, the weather lady doesn't
give the weather in my area, so i'm not so partial to her. Sorry.

tatsxxx11
03-31-2003, 04:16 PM
Shell, Hmmmm, let's see. Saddam has made many enemies, most of them, his own people. Thus, if one were to drawn upon our logic, one might rightfully presume that HE is a legitimate target of hatred??

jackiesdaisy1935
03-31-2003, 04:40 PM
Obviously the Brits who are fighting over there to keep all you homebodies safe don't think it's wrong, they are getting killed and maimed to protect you and their families from the WOMD. Do you really think all of us love war? It's not the war we love it's the young men and women from Britain and the U.S., many who have given up their lives to protect all of us. Why not concentrate on bringing up the moral of the young people over there, the war is not going to stop because you may carry a sign now saying "peace", give them a break and show them you appreciate the sacrifices they are making in the NAME of Peace.
You can argue with the Politicians later.
Jackie

ChrisH
03-31-2003, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by shellonabeach
If people don't make enemies then they won't be targets for hatred. That's why I wish we weren't in it, we are a lot nearer than you lot to Saddam and I fear bombs that are meant for you will be pointed at us.
I am sorry but I cannot go along with this as a reason not to be involved.

Hey I just wanted to say my piece, twist it how you want, I'm not American and do not think the same way.
Yes of course you are entitled to say your piece, as am I. I say that I do not think there is one person who is a member of this board who wanted this war, but it is a fact, it is happening. So, no matter how many people think this war is wrong, no matter how many people think this war is right, makes not a jot of difference. We are in the war, Brits and Americans, together, like it or not.

I just object to seeing the "US and Britain" are wonderful this and that. A large proportion of us Brits think this war is completely wrong, pity you don't get our channels and news, say what you want for America but please leave us out of it.
I am a Brit so am part of the `us`. Please don`t speak for me.

Chris

RICHARD
03-31-2003, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by ChrisH


I am a Brit so am part of the `us`. Please don`t speak for me.

Chris


You just earned yourself an Honorary American Citizenship.
Should you come to Los Angeles you can pick up the paperwork
then-and a beer, should you choose to do so. I'm buying.


:)

KYS
03-31-2003, 05:29 PM
I think most Americans have access to cable
T.V. which airs news from other countries
such as BBC. (not to mention newspaper subscriptions
from around the world.) Let's not forget the access to news
via internet around the world.


I also do not think most of us our pro-war.

But since the war has started, we tend to band
together in support of our troups/Country.

"We just don't like reading/seeing/hearing our country being BASHED."

I wonder why I can have a calm discussion with my
friend in England, my neighbor from Holland
and my friend from Germany.
All three of my friends were against the war,
but once the war started, you will not see them going to any demonstrations, nor bashing America or Britian.
(We might not agree with everything that our governments
are doing) but the one thing all of us agree upon is supporting the troups, not giving Iraq or the middle east countries any propaganda that can be used against our soldiers/countries.


I agree with Jackie, you are not
going to stop the war by holding up a Peace sign and demonstrating. You want to make changes,
write your representatives and VOTE.

shellonabeach,
In my opionion we would still have enemy's
and terrorst attackes in the future against the US and Western world, even if we were not at war with Iraq.

momoffuzzyfaces
03-31-2003, 05:32 PM
Originally posted by ChrisH

Yes of course you are entitled to say your piece, as am I. I say that I do not think there is one person who is a member of this board who wanted this war, but it is a fact, it is happening. So, no matter how many people think this war is wrong, no matter how many people think this war is right, makes not a jot of difference. We are in the war, Brits and Americans, together, like it or not.
Chris
Yep, if we were given a vote and an alternative option, I'm sure we wouldn't be in the war now. Last I heard there were 46 nations who were supporting us in some way or another. I'm proud of all of them but mostly of the ones willing to put their lives on the line with us.

Soledad
03-31-2003, 06:26 PM
"I agree with Jackie, you are not
going to stop the war by holding up a Peace sign and demonstrating. You want to make changes,
write your representatives and VOTE."

Well, holding a peace sign is not more productive than waving a flag. Most protesters are part of larger organisations that ARE doing more by having letter writing campaigns, dissimenating information, supporting candidates for local elections that represent their views, etc.

Also, this "war" is creating so many Bin Ladens that we will have to deal with in 20-30 years.

mugsy
03-31-2003, 06:52 PM
It's too bad that there are stupid people out there who hate us just because we are us. Somehow I don't think this war is going to do much to change that either way....we are the infidels in their minds and it has been that way for a lot longer than this war or talk of this war has been going on. The bin Ladens of the world may not see the error in their ways in this life, but I feel that they probably will in the next.

KYS
03-31-2003, 07:27 PM
Most protesters are part of larger organisations that ARE doing more by having letter writing campaigns, dissimenating information, supporting candidates for local elections that represent their views, etc.>>>>>>>>>>

And also "mingling" among the majority of these Peacefull protesters, are also anarchist, and other anti- US government groups, who have their own agenda.


Also, this "war" is creating so many Bin Ladens that we will have to deal with in 20-30 years. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I disagree partly with this.

The Bin Ladens of the world are already out their and
our Government has been dealing with them for several years,
Just not on American Soil.

petsbestern
03-31-2003, 07:32 PM
Mugsy, I don't think that is true. People don't hate us because of who we are. If we use our brains and wonder WHY they hate us, we will find many solutions.

I believe they hate us because:

1. We station our troops in every country we can get our hands on.

2. We support other governments that aren't democratic as long as they allow our troops to be stationed in their land, against the public's will. (I don't think we would be too happy if other countries suddenly decided they needed to install their troops in our country. I can see doing that when needed, but keeping our troops in the land of others for decades is IMHO wrong)

3. We are always concerned about our safety and how we feel and how our people feel, but we care little about the millions of people around the world that have been suffering for centuries, and many of them, because of us or because of nations we "harbor." (me included. I don't realize what they go through until it happens to us at home)

I believe there must be other reasons as well.

Honestly, I do not believe anyone anywhere in the world would hate anyone just because of who they are. That just doesn't make sense. When I realize people are hating our nation, I ponder about why, and put myself in there place, and see how I would feel if I were them. I know that people once had great respect for our nation and culture. I asked myself, why are people starting to hate us. Why didn't they hate us before?

Then I read the news, do some research, and I find out why. They don't hate us because of who we are. They hate us because of our foreign policies. Because of what our government does. Things that we may see as helping or saving come to their eyes with a different perspective. They see it in a different way. They understand it in a different way. They don't think we are saving them. They think we are taking their land and trying to dominate it.

I'm not saying that's what's happening as things are so uncertain at this point, but that is what I have concluded as to WHY they hate us. I also like to ask myself, why do we hate them? It does give answers. I don't hate them, but many Americans do. We need to understand each other. We don't hate each other because of who we are. Each nation has a reason to have hatred towards another, and we need to dig through those reasons, find answers, and try to educate those who do not know about us, and only see us as terrorists.

momoffuzzyfaces
03-31-2003, 07:46 PM
Originally posted by petsbestern

3.
Honestly, I do not believe anyone anywhere in the world would hate anyone just because of who they are. That just doesn't make sense. dominate it.


Does the name Hitler ring a bell? I know people who hate others because of the color of their skin or their religion or where they were born. As for the U.S. having bases in other countries; lots of those countries asked us to be there to 'protect' them from invasion of by other countries.

tatsxxx11
03-31-2003, 07:55 PM
I find it very interesting that many of those who choose to pick this forum as a platform from which to vent their anit-American diatribes are too cowardly to post where they are from??? Interesting calculus.

RICHARD
03-31-2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by petsbestern
Mugsy, I don't think that is true. People don't hate us because of who we are. If we use our brains and wonder WHY they hate us, we will find many solutions.

I believe they hate us because:

1. We station our troops in every country we can get our hands on.

2. We support other governments that aren't democratic as long as they allow our troops to be stationed in their land, against the public's will. (I don't think we would be too happy if other countries suddenly decided they needed to install their troops in our country. I can see doing that when needed, but keeping our troops in the land of others for decades is IMHO wrong)

3. We are always concerned about our safety and how we feel and how our people feel, but we care little about the millions of people around the world that have been suffering for centuries, and many of them, because of us or because of nations we "harbor." (me included. I don't realize what they go through until it happens to us at home)

I


huh????

first of all the dislike for us comes from the goverments running the show (the religions play a SMALL part also..)

secular goverments are pretty neutral when you take a look at the map.

troops in "every country we can get our hands on"???? seems like they could kick us out any time they want....

the last country we took over was TEXAS. they put up a pretty good fight too (Texans, that was not a slam, rather an endorsement of your individuality!)


the fastest way to get a people under your thumb is to keep them uneducated and slowly feed them the pablum of your regime.....

yes there are millions of people suffering under a dictator/regime/
government....but every time the US steps in people go nuts and tell us we are bullies, terrorists and put troops in every country we can lay our hands on....

which way do you want it???????

people living in the shadows of US forces, to be protected in an oblique way or should we just butt out, pull everyone home and let the downtrodden suffer.....

yeah they may hate us because of our foreign policies, but when we make a policy, for the better of a country, we get hate for doing that job.......for me, if i am gonna be hated, let it be for something I have done, not sitting around trying to cover my rear, as some countries do.

you can't have it both ways.

petsbestern
03-31-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by tatsxxx11
I find it very interesting that many of those who choose to pick this forum as a platform from which to vent their anit-American diatribes are too cowardly to post where they are from??? Interesting calculus.

I'm an American from the US and I believe I've mentioned that before. My family has been here for generations and I'm from Irish decent. I'm as American as any of you and how dare you say I'm anti-American! That is far from the truth! I love my country more than anything in the world. I was posting the reason why THOSE people hate us. They obviously see things differently than we do, and may not understand our government's purposes. I don't think they hate us because of who we are. They just understand things our government does in the negative direction. Understand my posts before speaking. I was born American and will die American. Some of the troops fighting are my cousins you know. You should really know what you are talking about before you speak. Not all Americans support this war. In fact, many many don't. :mad: :mad: :mad:

petsbestern
03-31-2003, 08:09 PM
Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
Does the name Hitler ring a bell? I know people who hate others because of the color of their skin or their religion or where they were born. As for the U.S. having bases in other countries; lots of those countries asked us to be there to 'protect' them from invasion of by other countries.

How can you compare millions and millions of civilians to Hitler? They have something instilled in their minds that causes them to hate us. They don't understand us, and we don't understand them. Its as simple as that. They view us as terrorists, we view them as terrorists. We are both wrong and need to understand each other. The mass population of the US are wonderful people, and I'm sure its the same in other parts of the world. We just haven't been their and met those people ourselves. The media says they hate us, but how do we know how many of them really do? I think we all need to visit that part of the world to see before we make our judgements. I really hope I can go and see those people and how they really think sometime in my life.

jackiesdaisy1935
03-31-2003, 08:11 PM
Sandra, I'm laughing, I was thinking the same thing, I wondered why people did not put where they were from too. LOL Oh I'm sure we will hear a good reason, lol.

FROM PETSBESTERN
3. We are always concerned about our safety and how we feel and how our people feel, but we care little about the millions of people around the world that have been suffering for centuries, and many of them, because of us or because of nations we "harbor." (me included. I don't realize what they go through until it happens to us at home)


Do you watch the news or read newspapers? Have you heard what the Iraqi people have been going through, have you heard how many of our Brits and Americans have got killed trying to save these people? Have you read about the humanitarian efforts by our men and women in the service? Have you read they are giving the Iraqi's food when their own leader turned off their water and they are out of food? Where have you been?
Jackie

momoffuzzyfaces
03-31-2003, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by petsbestern
How can you compare millions and millions of civilians to Hitler? They have something instilled in their minds that causes them to hate us. They don't understand us, and we don't understand them. Its as simple as that. They view us as terrorists, we view them as terrorists. We are both wrong and need to understand each other.
You missed my point. You said you didn't think people would hate us because of who we are. Hitler hated people because they were Jewish (aka who they were). I wasn't compairing millions of people to Hitler. I was pointing out to you people do hate others because of who they are!

mugsy
03-31-2003, 08:16 PM
So please enlighten me on what you call people who fly planes into buildings and kill thousands of people because of who they are and what they represent because these people are the evil American infidels. These people aren't terrorists?

petsbestern
03-31-2003, 08:17 PM
Originally posted by jackiesdaisy1935




Do you watch the news or read newspapers? Have you heard what the Iraqi people have been going through, have you heard how many of our Brits and Americans have got killed trying to save these people? Have you read about the humanitarian efforts by our men and women in the service? Have you read they are giving the Iraqi's food when their own leader turned off their water and they are out of food? Where have you been?
Jackie

If you'd understand my post, I said that's how THEY see things. Even if we are there to save them, they "think" we are there to invade their land. Get the point? :rolleyes:

tatsxxx11
03-31-2003, 08:18 PM
I'll understand your position when you begin to write coherently. And I think you really need to hit the history books....momoffuzzyfaces was NOT comparing civilians to Hitler!:rolleyes:

NOT civilians=Hitler
Saddam=Hitler

And just wondering, where in the U.S. are you from???

petsbestern
03-31-2003, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by mugsy
So please enlighten me on what you call people who fly planes into buildings and kill thousands of people because of who they are and what they represent because these people are the evil American infidels. These people aren't terrorists?

You people are great at twisting words and making up false statements that have nothing to do with what I said. :mad:

OF COURSE those !@#$%^&'s are terrorists! I was talking about the mass civilians in both parts of the world! Not the terrorists.

mugsy
03-31-2003, 08:25 PM
Never mind, you are making so little sense I'm not going to bother.

KYS
04-02-2003, 09:04 AM
I was watching MSNBC and their journalist
is in Pakistan, reporting about the anti-war
demonstrations/riots. It has gotten to the point where
American's are being told they should leave
the country for their safety.
The journalist said that some news reports out
of Pakistan is spuring up so much anti-american sentiments/heated demonstrations. (putting his words lightly)
The journalist said one news account went as far
as to print that the US had dropped the automic
bomb on Iraq. When the journalist question the
source of the news report, asking where they got their information. The journalist was told,
"We have our sources"

(Now I realize this is far fetch, but you have
people who read and believe it)

tatsxxx11
04-02-2003, 09:12 AM
I JUST heard that, Karen!!:rolleyes:

momoffuzzyfaces
04-02-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by KYS

The journalist said one news account went as far
as to print that the US had dropped the automic
bomb on Iraq. When the journalist question the
source of the news report, asking where they got their information. The journalist was told,
"We have our sources"

(Now I realize this is far fetch, but you have
people who read and believe it)
Too bad their 'sources' are apparently brainless. If we dropped an atomic bomb on Iraq, the whole world would know it ... there would be little left ... just a big old hole where Iraq used to be ... no buildings, no animals, no people, no reporters.

mugsy
04-02-2003, 01:52 PM
Not to mention that there would be world repercussions almost immediately.

mugsy
04-02-2003, 01:59 PM
Ahhhh paranoia reigns supreme. For what reason would we want to bomb Pakistan? My only thought would be if bin Laden is being given refuge by somone in Pakistan that we would go in and get rid of him, but not the entire country. Oh yeah, I forgot that the American media lies about everything...how silly of me.

RICHARD
04-02-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by cheetahgirl
What are you guys talking about??? I live IN Pakistan and I watch the news and read our papers here EVERYDAY. If there any report like that, I would have knew before any of you. Your msnbc is probably the one that is lying.

No matter how much we helped you, no matter how good "friends" we were, you are going to find some reason to bomb us some day. We know that. We know that well. You are not true friends. Just using us and disposing us. Only our stupid president doesn't know that. :rolleyes:

Anyway, bye bye. I'm off to bedtime.


golly, you shouldn't go to sleep with so irritated, not good for your digestion and your skin.

dropping a nuke anywhere would not be beneficial to anyone.

there used to be a bumper sticker here in the "lying" US that said.

One nuclear bomb can ruin your whole day.


dropping one halfway thru the workweek is kinda counter productive. I get paid on Friday and want to relax this weekend.

If you like you can come over to the US and talk about 'our'
stupid president......everyone else is.


sweet dreams.

momoffuzzyfaces
04-02-2003, 02:48 PM
Gosh, everyone, I was just being sarcastic! Trying to point out that no one could drop an atomic bomb on Iraq without the whole world knowing because A bombs make a 'big' mess plus leave everything radioactive for centuries! And the reporter should have made sure his 'sources' were in touch with reality before he passed information on. Besides there are so many reliable reporters with the coalition that no one can pass gas without the rest of the world knowing about it. They are from several countries not just USA.

Gather 'round children and let an older person clue you in on a secret: sometimes people like to talk just to hear themselves rattle. Like the one (reporter?) who started the A bomb in Iraq myth and Peter Arnet formerly with MSNBC. They feel powerful thinking others will believe they know what they are saying when really, they don't know beans from apple butter. Now you know!

RICHARD
04-02-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
They feel powerful thinking others will believe they know what they are saying when really, they don't know beans from apple butter. Now you know!


beans grow in the ground and apple butter grows in a jar:p



:)

momoffuzzyfaces
04-02-2003, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by RICHARD
beans grow in the ground and apple butter grows in a jar:p
:)
Now you've done it! Now everyone will know!!! :eek: :D

jackiesdaisy1935
04-02-2003, 03:26 PM
LOL
Jackie

mugsy
04-02-2003, 03:39 PM
Now that is coming from a TRUE city boy! lol

RICHARD
04-02-2003, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by mugsy
Now that is coming from a TRUE city boy! lol


moff, jd and mugs,

show me an apple butter tree!:p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p

mugsy
04-02-2003, 03:58 PM
Well you have a point! lol

RICHARD
04-02-2003, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by mugsy
Well you have a point! lol logic triumphs again!!!!!

mugsy
04-02-2003, 06:54 PM
No gloating allowed!!

KYS
04-02-2003, 07:13 PM
posted by momoffuzzyfaces:

Like the one (reporter?) who started the A bomb in Iraq myth and Peter Arnet formerly with MSNBC. >>>>>>>>


I bet Peter Arnet is one sorry journalist at this moment.
And he did not even get an interview with "you know who"

RICHARD
04-02-2003, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by KYS
posted by momoffuzzyfaces:

Like the one (reporter?) who started the A bomb in Iraq myth and Peter Arnet formerly with MSNBC. >>>>>>>>


I bet Peter Arnet is one sorry journalist at this moment.
And he did not even get an interview with "you know who"

arnett was picked up by the 'Mirror' in England that same day he was fired.....he still has a chance.

momoffuzzyfaces
04-02-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by RICHARD
arnett was picked up by the 'Mirror' in England that same day he was fired.....he still has a chance.
I heard the 'Mirror' is equivalent to our Enquirer. Is this true?:eek:

RICHARD
04-02-2003, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by momoffuzzyfaces
I heard the 'Mirror' is equivalent to our Enquirer. Is this true?:eek:


yes ma'am.......at least we don't have to pay him unemployment.

RICHARD
04-03-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by cheetahgirl

And we were watching tv yesterday and they said people are wondering who will be next after Iraq. Then they said, well President Bush indirectly gave answer by pointing fingers at Syria. So they will be next, then someone else, then soomeone else. I'm sure we are somewhere in the hit list too. I thought North Korea should be next. Its just true that you want to bomb every Muslim country. :rolleyes:


why is everything a 'muslim country' thing.

if people behaved themselves, and not presume that WE are going to bomb every country, the world would be far better off.
syria provided NVG equipment to iraq and some of the people
on their way to baghdad had SYRIAN passports letting them
cross into iraq.

to make you feel better, we are bombing in alphabetical order
afghanistan, Iraq........'p's a ways down the list.....don't worry.

:rolleyes:

tatsxxx11
04-03-2003, 03:32 PM
As reported by MSNBC, today, the Pakistani newspaper The Daily Mail reported that the U.S. was debliberaely bombing sacred, historic and religious sites, that American G.I.s were raping Iraqi women IN THEIR TANKS (who saw???) and that we HAD, indeed, dropped the A-Bomb, killing HUNDERDS OF THOUSANDS...Of course, as reported by the same tabloid, Saddam survived. When asked by Kevin Tibble of NBC news, how they knew this, they replied..."We have our sources." I give up. Trying to respond to these ludicrous charges is like trying to clap with one hand.:rolleyes:

RICHARD
04-03-2003, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by tatsxxx11
As reported by MSNBC, today, the Pakistani newspaper The Daily Mail reported that the U.S. was debliberaely bombing sacred, historic and religious sites, that American G.I.s were raping Iraqi women IN THEIR TANKS (who saw???) and that we HAD, indeed, dropped the A-Bomb, killing HUNDERDS OF THOUSANDS...Of course, as reported by the same tabloid, Saddam survived. When asked by Kevin Tibble of NBC news, how they knew this, they replied..."We have our sources." I give up. Trying to respond to these ludicrous charges is like trying to clap with one hand.:rolleyes:


clapping with one hand is easy...depends how how much pain you can stand on your forehead!!!!!;)

"daily mail"...........me thinks they have gone postal!

momoffuzzyfaces
04-03-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by cheetahgirl

Ps. From what we hear, the shrine/grave of Ali, Prophet Muhammad's cousin and Islam's fourth caliph is not safe. We cannot believe the Iraqis are harming it. Iraqis would NEVER do such a thing, no matter how bad the Saddam can be. It has been there for centuries and no one ever touch it. Iraqis have been there always. They would NEVER touch the grave or bring harm to it in anyway. Its not possible. That's who US and British are blaming it on. This is something we cannot believe because its impossible. Its another war taktic. If anyone dare to bring harm to it then :mad::mad::mad:
I watch FOX news because they try to be fair and ballanced in their reporting where some of the other networks don't. They are saying that Iraqi soldiers are hiding in the shrine. The coalition are NOT firing on it because they know it is sacred and do not want to damage it. When some of the Iraqi citizens got upset because the soldiers were too close to the shrine, the soldiers moved back. I saw this just about 2 minutes ago. I understand how you feel about it though. I felt the same way when the Church of the Nativity was desecrated last year.

Soledad
04-03-2003, 04:30 PM
"I watch FOX news because they try to be fair and ballanced in their reporting "

I think that's the funniest thing I've heard all week.

momoffuzzyfaces
04-03-2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Soledad
"I watch FOX news because they try to be fair and ballanced in their reporting "

I think that's the funniest thing I've heard all week.
Glad I could give you a chuckle!

Soledad
04-03-2003, 04:46 PM
:D

jackiesdaisy1935
04-03-2003, 06:18 PM
Gee Soledad, where do you get all of your misinformation?
Jackie, Perry and Miss Daisy

mugsy
04-03-2003, 06:21 PM
Don't you know Fox News couldn't POSSIBLY present balanced reports.....they're not liberal enough. You know like the REALLY balanced news they're giving on ABC and CNN....yeah that's it.

Soledad
04-03-2003, 06:23 PM
I wouldn't solely rely on any of them. But then again, I like to actually apply critical thinking to my political views.

momoffuzzyfaces
04-03-2003, 06:27 PM
I didn't say they 'were' fair and balanced, I said they 'try'. I think they really do try to give more than one side not like other networks who I won't mention. I wish Paul would give us a smilie with it's tongue in it's cheek for showing sarcasim. :eek:

mugsy
04-03-2003, 07:15 PM
I guess I feel that when you watch the news you SHOULD take what is reported and digest it and make your own judgement. That's part of the human condition.

KYS
04-03-2003, 07:26 PM
I thought you might enjoy reading the article.
It has to do with the Top Cleric who asks followers
to stay of of the fight.
(I believe it has been reported on every news channel, I have watched that Iraqi soldiers are using Shrines.)

http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=030403&cat=news&st=newsiraqbritainsistanidc


P.S. Just a note, Fox cable news in my opinion
is a bit more hawkish, than other cable news.
That is why I like it. I also like Fox cable news because
they bring representation from both side of the
table to debate.
I also watch CNN, BBC, MSNBC, and
the basic news chanels such as CBS etc.

Being more hawkish, does "not" mean that they lie,
just that they report a more pro-American news.
Each country's own news stations/paper's
including the US uses Propaganda, but when a news
station out right lies, etc., that is crossing the line.

KYS
04-03-2003, 07:58 PM
Richared: if people behaved themselves, and not presume that WE are going to bomb every country, the world would be far better off.syria provided NVG equipment to iraq and some of the people on their way to baghdad had SYRIAN passports letting them cross into iraq. >>>>>>

Richard or anyone, please correct me if I'm wrong, but
Syria in the 1980's etc., provided training camps
for varies organizations of Middle Eastern and international terrorists. There were reportedly training bases near Damascus and other training facilities elsewhere, including the Syrian controlled Biqa Valley in eastern Lebanon.


P.S. Cheeta, if the US puts sanctions on a certain country,
than it is not assuming, but you can be darn shure
their is enough poof.
Cheeta...Please take your time and find out the facts before you
post. (you might find you will get a much gentler
responce to your posts).

tatsxxx11
04-03-2003, 07:59 PM
Cheetah...... Saddam Hussein is not a devout Muslim!!! He doesn't give a hoot about killing members of his own family, torturing dissindents by hanging them upside down and attaching weights to their testicles, attaching electric probe to women's nipples!!!!! He gased thousand of Kurds........THEY ARE MUSLIMS!!!!!!! And as well, Shia's. He uses Muslim women children as human shields. If he can kill Muslims, do you really believe he would think twice about bombing a mosque???? His is a secular regime, not a fundamentalist Muslim regime. He cares about HIMSELF.......PERIOD. I do not deny that throughout history, great harm and death has been cast upon innocents in the name of religion, Christians included! The Inquistion, The Crusades.........thousands killed all in the name of Christianity. To cloak one's evil doings in the protective shroud of piety is a joke, be you Christian, Muslim, whatever!

And Cheetah, I don't have a problem with your country, but you seem to have a problem with mine. A while back I wrote you a very kind, caring, "we need to understand each other" type post...I mentioned to you that Americans consider you a friend, how appreciative we were when your country helped us to capture terrorists on the run. You had nothing but anger in your response to me. You said that American was NOT a friend to Pakistan, that "you" were next on our "hit list." Choosing he road of hatred, pitting Muslin against Christian, Pakistani againt American get us no where. Nothing gets better when one takes that route. I read every day in your papers, in Al Jazeera, etc about your country's hatred for America and Americans; what monters we are. Just yesterday, your "protestors" called for a "jihad" against us!!! And all the while, terroritsts of WHATEVER religion are finding safe haven in your country. I for one am getting so sick of hearing this endlessly, day after day. We are the cause of all your/the world's problems......... Why don't you worry more about the nuclear missles pointed at you from India???? Or the ones you have pointed at them??????? If we were wiped off the map tomorrow, I have no doubt your part of the world would have no problem self destructing. I think you have enough to worry about in your part of the world. Muslims, in the name of Allah, in the name of God, killed a member of my family when they flew that bomb with wings, that airplane, filled with innocent citizens of the world, into the TWC!!!!!!! We were one of the lucky ones. Most of the killed were vaporized. He at least left us a few bone fragments to identify through DNA testing. Or did we make that up to????????? BUT, I do not blame Muslims, nor you, nor any particular Muslim nation. We gathered and prayed after that horror with Jews, Muslims, Christians, people from all over the world. Your part of the world could learn from US. Terrorists, by ANY name must be roooted out whevever they are, whoever they are, and stopped.

mugsy
04-03-2003, 08:02 PM
It is pointless if people want to believe that we're wrong and Saddam is right (or at least doesn't need to be taken out of power) they're going to do that. Somehow tonight seems to have gotten quite ugly.

mugsy
04-04-2003, 09:46 AM
No one was screaming at anyone.

babolaypo65
04-04-2003, 10:18 AM
cheetahgirl:

Bahai???

I think this one I'll need to see in a reputable print source to be able to wrap my mind around it.