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Equinebehaviorist
03-27-2003, 01:45 AM
I finally got pics of my bunnies today! Here they are.....

Thumper Bunny is the daddy (Californian)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid57/p69cd4655b58ca18c65d6d220918b1a02/fc7067cd.jpg

And Lucky Bun is the mommy (Chinchilla Satin)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid57/p82fc2e825467bc0ebb89c7733665f081/fc7067d1.jpg

Of these cuties who are now 3 weeks old!
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid57/p3ffe7810a8d0f250733357c1e048a580/fc7065da.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid57/p7f8e568da0f0468732f34c042dafffe6/fc7065d9.jpg

There are 4 white with black points, 2 blacks, and a dark silver I couldn't get a good pic of.


And, new to the family as of day before yesterday...

Grandberry's Rudy, a Chestnut Agouti Jersey Wooly doe
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid57/p22a951ecb87a811bd0a60634ea61417e/fc7067ce.jpg

And Lil' Bunny Fru Fru, a black rex doe at 4 weeks old
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid57/pe0d8dd6ff14ee6abd3da07b734a245f8/fc7067d0.jpg

I love my Buns!:D

zippy-kat
03-27-2003, 09:17 AM
Awww what beauties!!!

How old are mom 'n dad? Do you plan on keeping the babies? WHAT sweeties!!

Daisylover
03-27-2003, 11:45 AM
Your bunnies are so cute and I can tell you love them.

However I am distressed to see you have a new? 4 weeks old. Yes, this is the age when they are the cutest but they should not be taken from their mom until they are 8 to 10 weeks old.... Yes they are eating greens but they haven't had a chance to completely learn how to BE a bunny from their mom at this age.
Most females who are removed to early from their mothers often kill their first batch or two of babies because they don't know what they are and how to take care of them. I am involved in rabbit rescue and we see this frequently.

I would hope that you are not intentionally breeding your bunnies and adding to the homeless rabbit population. We have found that rabbits are impulsively purchased this time of year and no thought is given to the care and needs of the rabbit...they are just cute so people want them. They don't realize that bunnies are physically fragile, the amount of work involved, that buns need to eat something other than pellets, and most importantly, that rabbits are NOT like kittens and puppies....that you have to EARN a rabbit's trust and affection. People also do not understand the eye sight factor or why a bunny might freak out and box, charge or bite when something comes at them from the low vision spot in front of their face..... I could go on and on.

What is really sad is that it is only the end of March and already our sanctuary has already seen an increase in people wanting to surrender their bunnies or who have found abandoned ones. What I refer to as the "Easter Dump" hasn't even happened yet...May, June and the first half of July are terrible for us. Last August we were caring for 92-94 bunnies, when our usual population is between 42-50...... I hate to think that the early surrenders we are seeing are a portent of things to come later this spring. PLEASE reconsider if you are purposefully breeding your bunnies, and if you aren't, congratulations! You are doing the right thing.

luckies4me
03-27-2003, 01:22 PM
Won't the wire flooring hurt their feet? Do they have a solid area to go to to rest their tootsies?



I too think that is too young of an age. When I was younger around Easter time we would go to Pet City and I would look at bunnies. I bought two.....I was around 18 I think. I don't know what type of rabbits they were, but I knew they were not purebred.


They were just white bunnies with straight ears and VERY young. The other bunnies I ever had were adults when I got them so I didn't know anything about younger bunnies, I thought they were just like adult rabbits in their care. Boy was I wrong.


Well the first one died the next day, then the other bunnies that were sold there also died. I can only believe it was from them not being ready to live on their own. I took the body back and they told me I could exhange for another bunny.


I exchanged and got another from a different litter, a white bunny with a black ring around the eye and a cute black nose! :D Well, I fed the bunny some veggies and he died too! I didn't know you were not supposed to feed them greens when they were that young. I thought they were old enough to leave mom because they were in the pet store.


All the books I read said greens were fine. They didn't tell me not to feed him greens until I brought him back, then they told me! :mad: I think all Pet Stores should hand out a Caresheet just in case. I wish I would have had the internet then....don't even recall anyone who did then, but if I did I would have had a wealth of information.



It was an impulse buy and I was guilty of it. I hate Easter time for that reason, there are ducks, rabbits, and chickens being bred for people who are just like I was....wanting to buy an animal because it was "cute" and that's not a reason to get an animal. The reason should be for companionship.


I hope you keep your babies or at least sell them on contract. There are always people looking for free animals. A lot of free animals are sold to people who look honest, but a lot of those innocent pets get sold for research labs or breeding mills etc.


When I sell my rats they are all sold on contract, and the people are drilled about proper feeding and housing etc. Just make sure they really know what they are getting into and that they know how to properly handle/house/feed the animal.


I do think that maybe a solid place for your bunnies would make them happy. :) Are they litter box trained?


Can you tell us anymore about them? I love to see pics too, so more pics wouldn't hurt. :p

luckies4me
03-27-2003, 01:28 PM
If you want to type up some sort of sales agreement, you can look at my pages for some ideas. Just make it fit bunnies. :)


Also if you want to breed, I would make sure homes are lined up beforeyou do, and don't breed mixes. That is doing nothing to improve the breed of rabbit. It is said that if you cannot improve the line then don't do it.


I am very picky which rats of mine are bred. I have most if not all of the babies solf before they are born, and I keep whatever babies I do not sell until they find a home. I also always welcome back any animal that was bred by me if the new owner comes into some troubles etc. I actually make them sign an agreement that states that if they ever need to rehome the animal that it be returned to me first, or that I must agree that whoever they want to rehome the rat with will be suitable. A lot of time, money, devotion etc. goes into breeding any animal.


Here are the links. :) BTW your bunnies are gorgouse! I love Californians. :D


http://www.geocities.com/luckies4me/adoption.html

http://www.geocities.com/luckies4me/adoptioninformation.html

popcornbird
03-27-2003, 01:35 PM
Your bunnies are gorgeous! I especially love the dad! :D

BTW people, she never said she seperated them from their mother, and it certainly doesn't "seem" like she did. I hope not.

They are precious! I love white bunbuns!

luckies4me
03-27-2003, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by popcornbird
Your bunnies are gorgeous! I especially love the dad! :D

BTW people, she never said she seperated them from their mother, and it certainly doesn't "seem" like she did. I hope not.

They are precious! I love white bunbuns!


You misunderstood. We are not talking about the babies, it seems they are still with their mother. We are referring to her new bunny who is four weeks old and without a mother.

popcornbird
03-27-2003, 01:40 PM
Oh I see. I "thought" the 4 week old was one of the siblings. lol

luckies4me
03-27-2003, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by popcornbird
Oh I see. I "thought" the 4 week old was one of the siblings. lol


hehe

Isn't daddy so cute though??? Last summer we took Dylan to the 4H fair and he got to see all the bun buns. It's amazing how many types there are!

luckies4me
03-27-2003, 01:45 PM
BTW the Orginal Cadbury Bunny was my bunny. :D So make sure to watch her commercial...if they show it this year. Her name is Apples. :D My father and I am going to put a website up about her which should be done soon, as not even the company has any info on her, and I would have expected at least something!!! :mad: Sorry but those other rabbits took her over, grrr.


They don't show her as much anymore since all the "imposters" took over. :mad: :rolleyes:


The lady who trained her also trained cats for Friskies commercials too. But Apples is gone now, don't know when she died, but it as a long time ago. :(

luckies4me
03-27-2003, 01:48 PM
Actually you know what, I think Apples might have actually been a boy, I would have to ask my dad....


I am sure my dad has great stories about her! I should get him to join. I have tried a few times already but he always complain that he belongs to too many lol. :p

lizbud
03-27-2003, 02:06 PM
Don't ya just love it when two people jump in and take over
a thread & begin chatting back and forth about things that
have nothing at all to do with the original poster's intent ? NOT.

If Equine ever returns to this thread, Id really like to hear all
about her bunnies & also the 4 wk old bunny.Very cute baby.

luckies4me
03-27-2003, 02:11 PM
That happens in a lot of threads........we didn't take her thread over. If you didn't read my posts I asked to see more pics and what not, and I do believe we commented on how sweet her babies are. :D

Jessica12345
03-27-2003, 03:10 PM
aww! so cute! they are just adorible! I just loooovvee the fourth one... aww!:D lol... thanks so much for a smile!:D

Tina
03-27-2003, 03:18 PM
Great Pics!! Your bunnies are just so adorable and sweet!

Daisylover
03-27-2003, 03:40 PM
Lizbud
I am sorry you think the thread got distracted from the original intent. Looking back at the postings, everyone has commented on how cute all of Equine's bunnies are. We always love to see pictures of other people's pets and hear their stories.

However, you also saw concern expressed for the rabbits, esp. the 4 wk old female, who was not part of momma's litter.

As someone who has been involved in rabbit rescue for over 5 years I DO get distressed when see a bunny who is taken from its mom too early. Because I constantly work with unwanted, homeless rabbits I get very concerned about the breeding of rabbits, just like any cat or dog rescuer would get concerned about puppy and kitten mills. The homeless rabbit problem that has been ongoing for years and is not going to go away until people start waking up. And Luckies4me points out correctly the wire floors in cages are very hard on tender bunny feet. A rabbit has delicate, easily ripped skin and no padding on the feet except the fur. Continuous pressure of the rabbits' weight and bones pressed on the wire eventually causes a very serious condition call sore hocks. This happens when the skin disintegrates and the feet become raw, and then painful and infected.

On POTD we all love our pets and want what's best for them. Likewise we want what is best for everyone else's pet(s) too.

The idea of a forum such as this is the sharing of information about our pets, their care and needs. I bet even you have given advice or made comments to others yourself at one time or another. So my thought about your reaction to this thread is that you need to stop and consider what is being said instead of just reacting...... There was no criticism expressed, only some concern.

Vermontcat
03-27-2003, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Equinebehaviorist
I finally got pics of my bunnies today! Here they are.....

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid57/pe0d8dd6ff14ee6abd3da07b734a245f8/fc7067d0.jpg

I love my Buns!:D
Hey Equine, I finally got here to check out your cute Bunnies!:D
I like this one the best, it looks like a bunny my friend owns.:)
I hope you have some photos of your horses too, especially the Morgan but I guess that will have to go in another thread. (This one has been busy!);)

Equinebehaviorist
03-28-2003, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by Daisylover

However I am distressed to see you have a new? 4 weeks old. Yes, this is the age when they are the cutest but they should not be taken from their mom until they are 8 to 10 weeks old....

Yeah, I am aware of this. I was really disappointed in the girl that I got them from for weaning them so early, but she said that her mom was going to make her sell them for snake food if someone didn't take them now. I am going to do the best I can with her and see how she comes out.

I have been breeding and raising rabbits most of my adult life, so I hope that I can help her come along okay and if she can't be a good momma, that's okay, we will just make a pet of her. :)



I would hope that you are not intentionally breeding your bunnies and adding to the homeless rabbit population. We have found that rabbits are impulsively purchased this time of year

Okay, now this is were everyone is going to hate me, but I do intentionally breed them. And :eek: we eat the ones that aren't placed in pet homes by 12 weeks old. I carefully screen pet homes and only the kits with very tractable and easy going temperments are sold as pets. The pets are also sold under the condition that if the pet doesn't work out, the rabbit comes back to us, much like a responsible cat or dog breeder, and we will assess what is to be done with that bunny then.

I can totally understand and respect what you are saying about homeless bunnies. It is in some ways worse than the dog and cat breeding crisis. However, responsible breeding, placement, and follow up have been extreamly sucessful in my experience with bunnies (nearly 15 years). I bought the little rex and Wolly becasue I felt bad for them not being appreciated. I would like to see how the rex comes through for breeding, because, like I said, we do eat them and use the pelts. But we are very humane and give our bunnies the best of care, and the really sweet ones are given a good chance to become a pet or further breeder to replace our older retirees. And our older bunnies are gracefully retired, not butchered or abandoned.

Hope this clears the air.:)

Equinebehaviorist
03-28-2003, 02:12 AM
BTW, I don't take anyones comments personal. I know that every person on this forum, doggy, kitty, or otherwise, loves and cares for animals in every shape and form. I respect your concerns and comments.

As I said in the last post, which I wrote before I read the rest of the posts, my bunnies are very healthy, happy, and somewhat spoiled. I would spoil them even more if I could, but ....

My momma and papa are my friends and pets. The Rex, Fru Fru, is now my pet also, as is Rudy. I have a very, very small herd now, but back about 10 years ago I maintained a herd of 150 does and 50 bucks, not counting all the kits. They were New Zealand Whites and Californians. I am a farm girl, I eat alot of what we raise. But we make pets out of the parent stock to apease our need for animal friends. I am not saying it is easy, but it is our way of life. The young are not named until they have been choosen and sold to a pet home. The pet homes are carefully screened and schooled in the care and upkeep of their new pets. In some cases contracts require that the animals (I raise more than just bunnies) are altered by a certain age. 90% of these situations have resulted in satisfied homes and fulfilled contracts.

As for the kits having a solid place to go, yes, they still have their nest boxes to go into and I place a removeable slab of wood in the corners of the cages for the buns to sit on and chew if they like. At the time that I took the picks I was in the middle of cleaning cages and replacing the wood slabs. Believe me, I know what sore hocks are, :eek: I feel so bad for bunnies who get them.

As for the after care of my sold pets, I am constantly running around playing pre-vet for many of my clients, especially when they first get their new friends, checking out every concern that comes up until the new owners are more comfortable with assessing and addressing the situtations themselves.

I hope you all understand about my "use" of my rabbits. I know many of you have them strictly as pets and even as house bunnies. I think that is great, and I would support any bunny rescue effort I ever came across. But remember, only about 20% of all bunnies really like being house pets as we like them to be, and some are specifically bred to be used for meat and pelts.

Okay, enough:o don't want to sound like I am on a soap box here, just wanted to express my respect for your opinions and views, and explain mine.

Oh, and Vermontcat, I will get some pics of my Morgan mare. I have one I will post on the equine trivia site of her last summer, but it is not the best. She is SO shaggy right now, she looks like a big dirty teddy bear. But, if that don't bother you, I will take some pics the next nice day we get here of her and Zon, my Arab.:D

zippy-kat
03-28-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by Equinebehaviorist
I hope you all understand about my "use" of my rabbits. I know many of you have them strictly as pets and even as house bunnies. I think that is great, and I would support any bunny rescue effort I ever came across. But remember, only about 20% of all bunnies really like being house pets as we like them to be, ...


I know people eat them but it makes me cry everytime I hear of it. :(

I'm curious where/how you came up with the 20% figure. Do you have a link to the place where you got that information? If it's a 'meat rabbit' site, please warn me of any possible graphic photos.

Thanks in advance,
Zippy-kat

Equinebehaviorist
03-28-2003, 02:30 AM
I am sorry, :( I know it is not a fun thought for many. There are just many bunnies who are not cut out to be pets. Like I said, I take the most personable ones and nurture that quality in them to sell them as pets. In my town, everyone knows me as a rabbit breeder. There is actually a waiting list for suitable pets. I have never had to butcher one of the ones that I have raised as a pet. But the ones that end up in the freezer are agressive and/or very skittish, most often, and I wouldn't sell them as pets to anyone.

I can't remember where exactly I got that figure. It was actually a pet bunny site I was looking at a long time ago. I will dig around my favorites and see if I can find it.

popcornbird
03-28-2003, 02:38 AM
What do bunnies taste like? :eek: :eek: :eek:

I know people eat them. Actually, lots of people eat rabbits. Personally, I wouldn't, not because I think its wrong, but I just can't imagine eating a rabbit. One of my friend eats them though.

Equinebehaviorist
03-28-2003, 02:45 AM
I can't say they taste like chicken, cuz everything tastes like chicken. They have a milder flavor than chicken, cleaner, not greasy. It is healthier, supposedly, probably for many reasons. One being, they are mostly raised off ground, and are realtively parasite free without chemicals. They also are foragers, whereas technically chickens are scavengers, they eat anything just about. They have less fat than chicken, and the meat is not stringy like chicken. It also is an all white meat.

My husband makes a stew that is just to die for!

I remember when I first got into raising rabbits, I couldn't imagine eating one. But, I tried it, and I have been hooked since. But I was only able to try it because I had never had a bunny as a pet at that point, and advidly ate homegrown pork, beef, chicken, turkey, and lamb. But, for you pet bunny lovers, I can totaly respect your feelings. If anyone tried to feed me horse, I would get violently sick.:eek:

Daisylover
03-28-2003, 10:45 AM
Equine,
Thank you so very much for your replies. I greatly appreciate hearing more about your bunnies. I LOVE to talk about rabbits as pets and hear from others who are owned by these balls of fur. I also think a discussion like this helps foster better understanding of different views on the same subject.

Of course I realize there are a lot of people who raise rabbits for meat. You obviously care about your bunnies and that makes a great difference in the way I perceive the situation. Unfortunately the work I do has a very ugly side to it and it has made me very defensive on behalf of rabbits. My personal rabbits are very spoiled and much loved. The sanctuary "permanent resident" bunnies are likewise loved and appreciated even though they are suspicious of humans due to their various backgrounds and circumstances. And it is because of them I want other people to understand, appreciate and love them as much as I do. Yes, it's a rather naive wish to be sure but I will NEVER stop putting my two cents in on the offchance I can make someone think twice about rabbits as pets, oth their treatment of them.

I also want to give you a big high-5 for rescuing the 4 wk old female...... I admit here is where I get crazed .... selling for the
babies for snake food....that is so sick.

luckies4me
03-28-2003, 12:32 PM
Your not going to eat those babies you showed us are you? :( Just for future reference please don't show ones that are going to be used as meat.


I respect your views and it seems like you take very good care of them but are those bunnies even meat rabbits?


I have never heard of Californians and Chinchillas as food. The meat rabbits I have seen have been HUGE!:eek: I was really amazed at their size. Your bun buns are cute and I am glad to hear that you have contracts etc. I too am a breeder, not of rabbits but of rats and almost every kitten that is born into my rattery is sold before even being born. I actually have to breed on demand. Like you, any animal that I sold can always come back. :D


Do you have any other types of rabbits? How do you kill them? I am just curious, you can PM me if you want. It just seems like it would be such a hard thing to do...I couldn't do it personally. I could probably eat rabbit but could never slaughter my own as I have had them for pets all my life. :) They are just so cute!

Congrats on saving the little bunny, she's a doll!

Logan
03-28-2003, 01:05 PM
I think we would rather not hear about the "eating" part. At least I wouldn't. This is a pet forum...and to think of pets, even if they can't be domesticated becoming food is a bit tough for any of us. :(

Daisylover
03-28-2003, 01:16 PM
I agree, Logan. I don't want to hear about any of this meat business. Let's stick to pets, please.

luckies4me
03-28-2003, 01:44 PM
I didn't ask her to post on the forum did I?


I am just simply curious. I would like to know how they are put down to be eaten because that concerns me. I for one couldn't do it, not for a million dollars. I guess I just want to hear that they go humanely so that I can rest easy.

Logan
03-28-2003, 02:39 PM
Originally posted by luckies4me
I didn't ask her to post on the forum did I?


I am just simply curious. I would like to know how they are put down to be eaten because that concerns me. I for one couldn't do it, not for a million dollars. I guess I just want to hear that they go humanely so that I can rest easy.

Luckies, my post was not directed at you. It was just a general comment.

ILoveMyAbbyGirl
03-28-2003, 02:51 PM
Those babies are soooo cute! So are the parents! Cognrats!

luckies4me
03-28-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Logan
Luckies, my post was not directed at you. It was just a general comment.


Ok lol, sorry bout that. ;) I just want to rest easy you know?


They are SO cute though!:D

Logan
03-28-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by luckies4me
Ok lol, sorry bout that. ;) I just want to rest easy you know?


They are SO cute though!:D

Luckies, you have had your share of adversity at Pet Talk, lately. I promise, I will not be the one to add to it.

luckies4me
03-28-2003, 04:00 PM
Great Logan, your the best! :D

Equinebehaviorist
03-29-2003, 01:46 AM
You bet, no problem, no discussion of eating them here is fine by me. I totally agree, this is a pet forum. I didn't mention it before, when I posted the pics, for that reason. But, Daisylover's post kinda put me in a position where I had to clear that up.

I found that there are probably 3 girls 4 boys in the litter (they are still young, so may have to double check in a week or so). Two girls are white (Californian marked) and the biggest black is a girl. Two girls are definately sold right now, and another is looking at the third girl and a boy. I will probably end up selling all of them as pets, as they are going fast and they all have great personalities this time. I guess that is what I get for having such a sweet doe. Lucky LOVES having her ears stroked and being petted as long as you don't hold her. She will just lay there, and practically purr. Since she weighs about 12 lbs, she is a bit much to hold anyway.

Luckies, I will PM you more about meat rabbits, sizes, etc.

BTW, update on Fru Fru, the 4 wk old rex. She has gained signifcant weight and seems to be quite healthy and happy. I think she is going to come through quite well. She is such a doll, my daughter was holding her and carrying her around for a good part of the afternoon. I think we are going to get a harness for her and Rudy so we can take them on little walks. I haven't done that with one of my bunnies for a long time.

And the foot boards, or bunny boards as we call them? Well Thumper decided that the new boards were just too new, and he promptly grabbed each one, chewed on each corner, tossed and turned and flipped them until he was satisfied that they were "fluffed up" enough for him to be comfortable on them.:rolleyes: What a ham!

Daisy, you mentioned that some of your rabbits are leary of people. I know what you mean, I have had alot of rabbits like that. Thumper is horrible. The poor guy almost can't stand to be touched he is so traumatized. His ears and head are out of the question, and when I stroke him down the back he twitches and is hard as a rock. He has gotten better, but he is impossible to do toenails on. I feel really bad for him and have been making an extra effort to win him over. I have a need to rehab and help abused, neglected and generally messed up critters. I always end up with the worst horses, dogs, cats, etc. Seems it is not much different with bunnies, the ones I buy/rescue, anyway.

Thank you all for understanding and respecting my position. I look forward to continuing chatting with you all. :cool: :D

Logan
03-29-2003, 06:58 AM
Thank you for understanding! :)

*LabLoverKEB*
03-29-2003, 12:28 PM
Awwwww! What cuties! I want a baby bunny! Great pictures! Thanks for sharing!:) ;)

HoRsELUvR
03-29-2003, 10:26 PM
I love seeing pics of bunnies.they're really cute:D

tikeyas_mom
03-29-2003, 10:42 PM
Equinebehaviorist,

I have to disagree on your whole outlook, because you saying "some bunnies arent ment to be pets, because they are skiddish or whatever" is very wronge, any animal has the potentail if raised right to be an awsome pet. You are going to try to breed that 4 week old bunny, I know you are, I can just think about it now, you dont know ANYTHING about this rabbits background or anything, you are what I call a back yard or reckless breeder. Very unforunite these poor bunnies have either be perfect or have a perfect Temprement or be killed. My bunny Angel was a perfect pet she was soo lovely and cute, she HATED to cuddle and be held, would you kill her and sell her for meat? Probibly if she was in one of your rabbit litters. ppl like you make me sick. you know breeding shortens female rabbits lives, and gives them a greater chance or cancer?? You dont seem to care. :mad: .. I am just so overwelmed with fear for your upcoming and future litters. I am in more of a shock that you would mention this kind of thing HERE on a pet forum. :eek:

Equinebehaviorist
03-30-2003, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by tikeyas_mom
Equinebehaviorist,

I have to disagree on your whole outlook, because you saying "some bunnies arent ment to be pets, because they are skiddish or whatever" is very wronge, any animal has the potentail if raised right to be an awsome pet.

Personality tends to be a genetic trait, meaning that the brain and nervous systems are programmed by the genes that created it to react and respond to external stimulus in various ways. When genetic pattern surfaces of extreamly sensitive nervous system, the animal, any animal, is set towards becoming an anxious, nervous, defensive, or even aggressive animal. The experiences that it has througout its life will determine its behaviors. Behavior, to a point is modifiable. The problem is, it can often take lots of work, specific types of training, and a constant awareness of the genetic personality of that animal.

Considering this, I feel that it is more humane for a geneticlly nervous rabbit to be butchered than to be placed with any person looking for a pet. If someone comes along and wants a more excitable or nervous rabbit, for some crazy reason, and they show me that they have the skills to understand and train that rabbit, then so be it. But most of those bunnies, and dogs for that matter, that end up in shelters or abondoned are there because the average person who is looking for a pet has no clue about animal behavior period. They want to think that they are little people, and that the animal will calm down with just love alone. It takes knowledge of how an animal thinks, and how the species thinks, to understand and then possibly work towards modifying behavior.


You are going to try to breed that 4 week old bunny, I know you are, I can just think about it now, you dont know ANYTHING about this rabbits background or anything, you are what I call a back yard or reckless breeder.

I may very well give her a shot at it when she is ready, if I feel that she has the comfomation I want in my rabbits. She definately has a great temperment, even though her kits will probably, if she can handle being mom, will probably all have great temperments also, and end up being sold as pets. But, if she consistantly gives me great tempered kits, I will not breed her unless I have a demand for HER kits as pets, quite simply that is not my primary goal with the little bit of breeding that I do.

Part of a good breeding program, when it comes to farm animals, is not just pedigree on paper. As long as she produces good quality kits, and she enjoys being a mother, I will use her as needed. However, if the kits show any signs of problems, poor comformation, inherited health problems, etc. then she will be retired as a pet only.


Very unforunite these poor bunnies have either be perfect or have a perfect Temprement or be killed. My bunny Angel was a perfect pet she was soo lovely and cute, she HATED to cuddle and be held, would you kill her and sell her for meat? Probibly if she was in one of your rabbit litters.

Not necessarily. If she was aggressive, and showed no sign of improvement with reasonable effort, and if it was more likely that she would end up abandoned or neglected because of her behavior than happy and well adjusted to being a pet, I would, indeed, if she were of my litters. It is being responsible, in my opinion, rather than naive that someone would be able to deal with her personality and behavioral issues. I personally, if she expressed these behaviors, wouldn't feel that she would be happy as a domesticated rabbit.


ppl like you make me sick. you know breeding shortens female rabbits lives, and gives them a greater chance or cancer?? You dont seem to care. :mad: .. I am just so overwelmed with fear for your upcoming and future litters.

I do care. I do not breed my does relentlessly like alot of producers do. I care for the health and wellbeing of my stock, not just as stock, but as living creatures, God's creatures. They are carefully chosen stock, not just by papers or pedigrees, and they are only bred for what is desired. I don't breed them for money so much, as a true backyard breeder does, but I do "adopted" the kits which would make very nice pets. If the new owners didn't pay an adoption fee, they would be less likely to appreciate and be willing to put the money into their new friend to care for it properly.

The adults are retired young (usually 1 or 2 at most years of breeding - maybe 3 litters a year) and happily, and in fact, I am in the process of building a "retirement facility" for them, the does in one area, the bucks in another, with their own little worlds. This is one of the reasons I don't breed commercially anymore and I am keeping my herd so small. I want to be able to give all of my bunnies a comfortable existance, breeders, retirees, and young.

As for cancer, I am a firm believer that man is the cause of cancer though chemicals and genetic modification. All of my animals are organically and homopathically fed and cared for. I do not believe that cancer is caused alone by being bred. The combination of the hormonal surges and the chemicals put through their systems via of processed feed, antibiotics, and growth stimulators cause cancers. God made bunnies to have babies, just as he made us that way. Even we, the average woman, are at higher risk for cancers if we DON'T have babies and breast feed.

If you want to find irresponsible, selfish breeders, find puppy mills, people who breed countless of bunnies for labratory use (yes to make sure the drugs, make-up, lotions, etc. that you use are safe for human use), Premarin farms, or that awful breeder of Twisty cats, and the such. I am a small farm owner who cares about her animals and feeds her familly with what I grow, not to be rich or even to break even. I breed for naturally healthy, vigorous, strong animals with good temperments in general.


I am in more of a shock that you would mention this kind of thing HERE on a pet forum. :eek:

Again, the only reason why I did mention it is that Daisylover basically put me in a position where I had to clear the subject up. And now you have done the same in a much stronger sense. Whereas I understand and respect your concern, I will stand up to defend my position. It is not for everyone, but I am not irresponsible or a bad person for it either. And unless someone wants to rip into me again here publicly, I do not intend to mention the butchering of the rabbits here again, publicly. If you have a problem with it that you wan to express, PM me, don't put it here.


Respectfully,

K-FROG

CathyBogart
03-30-2003, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by Daisylover
I also want to give you a big high-5 for rescuing the 4 wk old female...... I admit here is where I get crazed .... selling for the
babies for snake food....that is so sick.

And what do you suggest for those of us who own large snakes?! Starve our pets?!



And Equine: Your rabbits are DARLING! Cali's are awesome rabbits.

Equinebehaviorist
03-30-2003, 02:25 AM
I used to own a snake, absolutely loved her. But I couldn't stand feeding time, quite simply because of the process. In fact, my ex tried to feed her a rat, but I saved it and made a great pet out of him too! But, we all have to make choices.

Honestly, what kills me is, like I said, people who raise rabbits for lab use. I can't imagine the torture they must go through just to make sure things are safe for human use.

zippy-kat
03-30-2003, 02:48 AM
First, I'd kinda like to kick myself for coming back to this thread... for the sole reason that I am incredibly sensitive when it comes to bunnies.... (already in a puddle of tears)

Second, I'd like to express my surprise and delight at EquineBehaviorist's ability to handle such an attack in a cool, collected manner... something I wouldn't have been able to do! lol

Third, and I will keep this incredibly brief... If people are going to consume bunnies, I would much rather have those persons be EXACTLY like EquineB. She is knowledgeable, compassionate, and definitely NOT what I would call a backyard breeder. On this topic, I will stop there.

I do not think that all "pets" are cut out to be pets. I do think that there are some that just can not adapt to human interaction. In my mind, after all means have been exhuasted and the animal is still not responding, the kindest thing is to put the animal to sleep. Yes, I would love to be able to save them all but it's not entirely possible.

For the record, while I'm not a strict vegetarian, I realize (but don't condone) the consumption of rabbits; they will always be indoor pets to me. I also realize that snakes must eat too, but can't ever imagine feeding one anything more than crickets.

popcornbird
03-30-2003, 03:03 AM
Equinebehaviorist, I will have to admit, I'm at shock with how calmly you handled all this attacking and hurtful posts. You are one brave, calm, and gentle person! Wow!

I agree with not believing that breeding increases the risk of cancer. God made animals to have babies, and their not being spayed/neutered cannot be a cause for cancer. That's how they were created, that's how they were made to be. That is one of the reasons people give for spaying/neutering that I will NEVER accept, because God made them that way and their natural body parts cannot be the cause of disease. I userstand the other reasonings to have it done, but this is one reason I will never accept. Good job on handling things so well. I would've broken down! :eek:

wolf_Q
03-30-2003, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by popcornbird

I agree with not believing that breeding increases the risk of cancer. God made animals to have babies, and their not being spayed/neutered cannot be a cause for cancer. That's how they were created, that's how they were made to be. That is one of the reasons people give for spaying/neutering that I will NEVER accept, because God made them that way and their natural body parts cannot be the cause of disease. I userstand the other reasonings to have it done, but this is one reason I will never accept.

Yes, but spaying can prevent cancer from happening if those parts are not even there for cancer to form in.

popcornbird
03-30-2003, 03:16 AM
Cancer can form anywhere. I have faith in God and don't believe a body part can be a "cause" of cancer. If cancer has to happen, it will happen anywhere, and no one can stop it. If its not going to happen, whether the animal is spayed or not, it won't happen. We have those body parts too, so we have that risk as well!

I didn't say spaying is wrong. I know there are many benefits. I just pointed out that "that" is not a reason I take for it. The homeless reason is why I think it helps, but I don't take the cancer thing as an issue. I take the other reasons. :)

Nomilynn
03-30-2003, 03:20 AM
I have faith in God too, and I believe it is He who gave doctors the knowledge to research about genetics and medical problems. I did a quick search on google, and many links came up about cancer and bunnies who are not spayed or neutered.

wolf_Q
03-30-2003, 03:28 AM
Unspayed female rabbits have a very high risk of uterine, ovarian and mammary cancers. Some reports state that more than 80% of unspayed, unbred female rabbits will develop uterine/ovarian cancer by the age of three years.

If the reproductive organ is not there, they will not get cancer there. Period. I never said that spaying/neutering would prevent cancer from occuring in *other* parts of the body.

Nomilynn
03-30-2003, 03:31 AM
If you have a pet rabbit and you want it to be with you for longer than five years (the expected life span of an unspayed bunny) then yes, getting a bunny spayed will prevent cancer. If you remove the uterus of a rabbit, then the chances of getting uterine cancer is eliminated. Obviously you can't spay breeding rabbits, but for people who have them as pets, and want to have them a long time, why just let the bunny get cancer? I don't think God designed rabbits to die, but perhaps He has given people the knowledge that unspayed bunnies can get cancer within a short lifespan for a reason too. You can't deny that bunnies are more prone to cancer after reading up on it. Clearly they are, that is why people with companion rabbits get them spayed or neutered.

CathyBogart
03-30-2003, 03:37 AM
Well, as long as we're going down this line of thought let's remove all of the other unnecessary bits. That tail, for example....I've seen an awful lot of injuries to it, so let's prevent those by removing it. Those ears, especially on some of the large lops, are too big and prone to infection and tearing. Let's remove half of them to prevent this.

If someone is breeding their rabbit wisely, carefully, and to a good end, I see no reason to alter the rabbit. I had a Mini Lop doe for nine years, outdoors, who was not altered. She lived in good health (Except for one non-feeding scare, but the cause of that was quickly found and fixed) and happiness for all of those nine years, right up until the last few days.

popcornbird
03-30-2003, 03:37 AM
"sigh" It seems that you aren't understanding my point. I never said people shouldn't spay/neuter their pets and that doing so won't help them. I just said that I don't believe its a "cause" of cancer. Of course removing a part will make it impossible for cancer to develop in an area that doesn't exist, but I was saying, that part is not the "cause" for cancer, as cancer can develop anywhere. A spayed rabbit can develop cancer in another part and die young, so its not a guarantee your pet will die at an older age. Again I never said people shouldn't do it. :p I just don't take that particular reason as the main issue. :)

I have faith in God, and if God has decided for a pet to get cancer and die young, that will happen whether the pet is spayed or not. On the other hand, if God wants an animal to live a long healthy, free of cancer life, that animal will live for as long as God wills, whether it is altered or not.

Nomilynn
03-30-2003, 03:44 AM
Originally posted by popcornbird
I was saying, that part is not the "cause" for cancer

I agree, but I do believe that some parts can be more prone to cancer, correct? I'm not saying that just because a rabbit has a uterus that means the bunny will have cancer.. hehe.. you are right there I'm not saying the uterus causes cancer but it seems like the uterus in bunnies is very prone to cancer.

And Wolf Chan, you don't need to be rude. PCB and I apparently didn't quite get our points across to each other, but I think we've been polite and respectful. Hopefully what I have just said will be more clear!! :D And if you read what I said, I was talking about spaying COMPANION rabbits.. not ones being used for breeding. And from what Equine said, I think she is a very dilligent and responsible breeder, who cares very much for her rabbits health and well being. The "line of thought" you decided to read into this never existed, and your post about removing tails and ears really doesn't fit here.

wolf_Q
03-30-2003, 03:45 AM
I never said that it "caused" cancer...just that not having it there would "prevent" it from happening in that particular organ. I may be wrong, but I thought cancer of the reproductive organs was fairly common.

And I don't recall ever mentioning anything about spaying animals used for breeding either.

popcornbird
03-30-2003, 03:48 AM
Yep Nomilynn! Finally! Yay, you got it! "clap clap" :D

BTW, I don't think Wolfchan posted rudely, but oh well. :confused:

Amy, if you read over my posts, you should get what I'm saying, ok?

wolf_Q
03-30-2003, 03:51 AM
Originally posted by popcornbird
Yay, you got it! "clap clap" :D

BTW, I don't think Wolfchan posted rudely, but oh well. :confused:

Amy, if you read over my posts, you should get what I'm saying, ok?

I'm not confused here, and I get what you are saying....I have been saying the same thing all along. I think you are the one confused by what I'm saying. ;)

Nomilynn
03-30-2003, 03:52 AM
I just took offense to WolfChan's post because it seems as though it is implying that I am in favour of removing "all of the other unnecessary bits" and that is NEVER what I said!!

popcornbird
03-30-2003, 03:54 AM
Originally posted by wolf_Q
I'm not confused here, and I get what you are saying....I have been saying the same thing all along. I think you are the one confused by what I'm saying. ;)

LOL! I think we're both confused. ;) Oh well. :p

wolf_Q
03-30-2003, 04:02 AM
Yes, but spaying can prevent cancer from happening if those parts are not even there for cancer to form in.


If the reproductive organ is not there, they will not get cancer there. Period. I never said that spaying/neutering would prevent cancer from occuring in *other* parts of the body.


I never said that it "caused" cancer...just that not having it there would "prevent" it from happening in that particular organ. I may be wrong, but I thought cancer of the reproductive organs was fairly common.

See...I said the same thing every time. ;)

popcornbird
03-30-2003, 04:04 AM
LOL. Oh well. ;);)

BTW, I LOVE your new sig!

wolf_Q
03-30-2003, 04:06 AM
Thanks! :D

Equinebehaviorist
03-30-2003, 09:19 AM
Good morning all....

I am an avid believer in spaying and neutering dogs and cats simply because most people can't be responsible enough to watch their pets and take responsible actions to prevent accidental breedings. Even the best of breeders will be "victimized" by the neighbors' loose dog(s) that has come to pay the prize winning bitch that is in heat a visit and manage to tie her through the fence, or their queen slips out the door when she is in a raging heat and gets caught by the neighbors toms that are hanging around like vultures.

Shasta and Ashely, my dogs have had wonderful, healthy lives (8 1/2 and 4 years) intact. I know their heat cycles well enough to predict when it is going to be a problem, and I take measures to prevent them being exposed when that time comes. The only reason why Shasta had, as you will read in another post, a uterine infection after all these years, I feel, was the people who were watching her for me over the last 5 months refused to feed her the way I wanted her fed, and she was eating processed food, tons of non organic table scraps, stuff dogs shouldn't even eat like chocolate and candy from the kids, and God knows what else. Her whole immune system was comprimised. In a way, I feel God made sure she came home at the right time, cause they never would have realized she had an infection until it probably would have been too late.

I have also had many, many (over 75) cats in my life, and most of them were not spayed, but I neutered most of the males (mostly to prevent spraying, but also to keep them home). When those females come in heat, they stay HOME, until I know they are done. I have only had a couple of occasions where that darn queen slipped out the door, thanks to the toddlers.
:rolleyes:

As for the cancer issue, I think that man trying to alter what God originally created is what is causing alot of our disease and cancer trouble. Perhaps the rabbits are considered to be so prone to cancer (even though in all the rabbits I have had, which were ALOT, I have never had one die from cancer) is because they are being bred so heavily for certain perpouses and their natural health is being comprimised? I know alot of purebred dogs are prone to certain cancers, and each breed has specific areas that need to be watched. There is so much linebreeding and inbreeding when developing breeds, I wonder how the over all health is comprimised.

Thank you all for the comments on my responses to this. To be honest, I pray before I answer, especially the really upset posts. I understand, and respect their concerns. I am not saying anyone is necessarily right or wrong. Just my experiences and my understanding of how God has things made gives me the convictions that I have about life and God's creatures.:)

tikeyas_mom
03-30-2003, 12:50 PM
I think that other animals can eat feeders, I have nothing againts that it is natural. I juat have everything againts ppl eating rabbits, horse, and pigs.

lizbud
03-30-2003, 02:03 PM
Equinebehaviorist.

A few questions please...

I was wondering about your login name. Are you a trained
Equine Behaviorist?

You said you use the pelts & meat from some of your stock of
bunnies. Is there a large market for these products?

You also said you used to be a commercial breeder, but not
anymore. Who did you sell to when you bred commercially?

luckies4me
03-30-2003, 03:12 PM
Equine,


Your posts about how you breed your rabbits was wonderful! We think alike in breeding respects, I follow the same rules for my rats, except that they are not used for food. You pointed out something that is very important, pedigrees. A lot of people do not understand that pedigrees do not mean much in terms of who is going to be bred. Almost all my rats are pedigreed, but not all are breeder quality. Some are just too nervous/skittish, have had myco flareups or whatnot and therefor not suitable for breeding.


I just wanted to give you a big CLAP for your post!!!!:D

Equinebehaviorist
03-30-2003, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by lizbud
Equinebehaviorist.

A few questions please...

I was wondering about your login name. Are you a trained
Equine Behaviorist?

Self taught, but yes. My focus with horses is understanding and using their behaviorial tendendicies for training and rehabitilitating abused and neglected horses. Have been in this line of work for about 25 years, since I can remember.


You said you use the pelts & meat from some of your stock of
bunnies. Is there a large market for these products?

You also said you used to be a commercial breeder, but not
anymore. Who did you sell to when you bred commercially?

Out of respect to the ones who are offended by this line of conversation, I will PM you on this. If you all want to know, then post here, and I will post it publicly, but I need to know I am not stepping on toes. :cool:

lizbud
03-31-2003, 08:10 AM
Equinebehaviorist,

Don't know about others, but as for the last two questions,
yes, i would like to know PM me or whatever.

I would definately love to know more about your experiences
with horses. Thanks.

Equinebehaviorist
03-31-2003, 10:52 PM
Lizbud,

I will PM you after this post.;)

As for my experiences with horses, I have been, like I said working with them for about 25 years, and have been studying behavior, and physiology as well as human psycology to better understand training and rehabilitating them. It is a fun subject to teach to owners and riders also.

I have handled and trained over 250 head of horses in my lifetime, from ponies to drafts, but mostly Arabians, QH, Thoroughbreds, and Morgans. I have handled many stallions, both for training and/or rehab and breeding, have foaled out countless mares, imprinted their foals, lost count of how many horses I have started for riding and "finished" for show. I have trained horses for everything from basic ground manners to National competitions in Western Pleasure and Ladies Sidesaddle, which I adore. I have trained and retrained race horses, both TBs and Arabs. I also train halter for Arabians, QH, and Morgans. I love to help kids with Showmanship. But my favorite things to do are reining and trail riding. The only thing I don't do much of on horseback is jumping, so I am not extreamly qualified there, especially in a competive sense. But, if there is a behavioral or phsyiological situation to be addressed in those areas, I usually can work it out.

I have volunteered my services to equine rehab organizations, and have been attacked, trampeled, kicked, bit, rolled over over, and smashed into walls by frightened, confused and upset full grown horses. But I have also had so many wonderful experiences with abused horses learing to trust and care, and actually looking forward to being handled and ridden after months, and sometimes years of hard work and thinking about what I am doing with them. I am one of those crazy fools who will give a "vicious" horse a chance instead of sending it out to pasture for good, or worse to the knackers.

I have found this to be the most fulfilling thing in my life, next to God and my family, to be able to connect with horses the way that I do. It is a thrill!

If anyone has any more specific questions, we can start another thread, and open it up to everyone. I love to talk about horses and help anyone and everyone, so I am open to questions of all sorts. :D

04-01-2003, 08:04 AM
You have my respect Equinebehaviorist !!

Your bunnies are gorgeous! good luck with the breeding! And please, post more pics ;) :D

This is one of my bunny Billie!
http://users.pandora.be/bernardgabriels/images/billie1.jpg

Vermontcat
04-01-2003, 09:26 PM
Lizbud, you may want to check out the Horse Trivia thread here in Pet General for some info and photos from Equine.:)
I have been chatting with her there and she does know her horses!
Equine, if you want to start a new horse thread I still have a couple of horse behavior questions I have been meaning to ask you.

Equinebehaviorist
04-01-2003, 10:24 PM
Okeydoke. I will start one titled ask me some equine questions..... how does that sound? ;)

Thank you Lut, I LOVE your bunny! I had a sweet buck we named Clover who was kindled last summer who looked just like your bunny. He had paw that looked like he dipped it in my goat milk just up the toes. I really miss that guy. The people who were watching my rabbits for me when I was gone for a while this last fall had a toddler who left his latch open and he hopped off. There are alot of coyotes and dogs around here, and since we haven't seen him again, I have to think the worst. :(

BTW, kit update, 3 out of seven are promised to pet homes already and they won't even be ready to leave mom for another 2-3 weeks. I haven't advertised them yet, either. Fru Fru is doing great and is just a super doll. Rudy is also doing awsome and is just as fun as Fru Fru.

:D