saw this on the news tonight..

[Nomilynn]

I saw this peice on the news tonight about a cat in Toronto that was skinned alive on video because they filmers called it "art" :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: Thank god they never showed any gross video, but they did show a clip of the cat who was so scared it (can't remember if it's a girl or boy) was backed into a corner :( Anyway, after the video was found all the filmers but one guy were caught and sent to jail. This website was dedicated to finding the last creep who fleed before he was caught. Thanks to this site, he was caught. check it out:

http://www.findmatt.org/index.htm

If anyone has any more info on this story, like how long the people went to jail and stuff, any info would be appreciated.

Thanks!

And way to go for capturing Matt!

[BastetsMum]

I never heard of that case Nomi - is there any details like newspaper articles on it?

I would like to know how these sick individuals *who should be skinned alive themselves* got a hold of a cat in the first place?!

There are some sick sad people out there.

[emily_the_spoiled]

Here is the link to the story that appeared in the Toronto newspaper. The found the guy on the other side of the country (in Vancouver). People made a concerted effort to catch this creep and he is now where he belongs!!!
:mad: :mad:

http://www.canada.com/toronto/story.asp?id={7C0BFF1D-2262-4FD0-A960-83E208CDFFF0}

[moosmom]

I'm glad this pig was caught! I hope they skin him alive. One thing I want to know...do you have to have a strong stomach to go into the link??? If so, I'll pass. I've seen enough in my last 6 years experience in animal rescue, thank you very much. :(

[emily_the_spoiled]

The link that I posted is direct from the major daily newpaper in Toronto. Because it is for general public consumption it is not as graphic as it could be. In fact it talks mostly about the woman and the police who helped to catch this creep.

[K & L]

Oh that is SO sick!

[bluekat]

:mad: :mad: :mad: OMG!!!!!! that is so sick, and i feel like crying now. Poor cat............ i can't imagine the pain she experienced. i just went to the site, and i'm disgusted at how some people treat animals.OMG.........its so sad. i can't imagine that they did this for an art project???? i'm very happy that he's caught now.

[ramanth]

There are no words....

:mad:

[NoahsMommy]

I am not a violent person...but can only wish horribly painful/hurtful/terrible things for those idiots.

I'm lucky this is a family site...otherwise I'd have to apoligize in a few minutes.

What vile, low, evil "creatures"!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[NoahsMommy]

OK, I'm back....

Skinning these IDIOTS alive wouldn't be anywhere near as bad. A human has the knowledge to understand what will happen. A poor defenseless cat has no idea what is going on. :( :( :(

I feel ill.

Maybe a hundred cats, armed with razor blades on each claw in a dark room....yea! The dudes would be covered in catnip. Yea!! No...how about lions?? That would even the score a bit.

Horrible. :( :( :( :(

Edit, after reading the link: I can't believe he got such light sentence....well, he'll have to answer to a MUCH higher court...God. Good!!! :mad:

[BastetsMum]

YAY! He's Been Caught!

What a vile crime against the animal kingdom!

I thought volunteering at the RSPCA you see many cases of torture and abuse but that just topped it all for me. I am no longer a volunteer unfortunately - I don't have the time.

All I can say is that I am glad this is a general audience forum or I think there would be a few things I would like to say that youwould definately have to avert your eyes from.

Thanks for the link.

[Russian Blue]

I'm just seeing this thread now.

I was totally caught up in this story when it originally happened. Unfortunately, in Toronto this is not a isolated case. An area of Toronto called High Park has found many tortured animals that were either sacrificed for a 'religion' or done out of malice.

I am glad they caught this guy. The only sad thing is that no justice is ever served in Canada when it comes to animal abuse. Animal welfare groups are trying to get tougher fines for such abusers but it looks like it will be a long process since the bill keeps getting stalled in Parliament.

[Nomilynn]

Originally posted by Russian Blue
The only sad thing is that no justice is ever served in Canada when it comes to animal abuse.

Too true!!

[NoahsMommy]

Really? :( Are the laws not very strict? I was wondering why his sentence looked so low. :(

[Russian Blue]

If you want to read more on Canadian Animal Cruelty Laws, here's a link:

Animal Cruelty Laws In Canada (http://www.ifaw.org/page.asp?id=918)

There was a recent surge of interest in animal cruelty because of a case involving a kitten being set of fire and dumped. The kitten was named Krista and now Canadians are trying to pass a much stonger fine and sentence structure when animal cruelty is involved.

Here's the link for more info:

Krista's Law (http://www.ifaw.org/page.asp?id=916)

[FindMatt]

Hi there,

My name is Katie Woodward and I started the Find Matt Campaign, which was instrumental in the capture.
I saw the mutilation video in court and that is what drove me to help police find this guy.
You can view my website at www.findmatt.org (I also just started a new campaign called "Kensington's" Campaign to encourage the cats owner to come forward).
If you have any questions about the case, feel free to ask me. You can post them here or send me an email by writing to [email protected]
Take care,

Katie Woodward

[moosmom]

Katie,

You are to be commended for your courageous determination in catching that disgusting piece of crap of a human. Keep up the good work!!

What makes me sick is that laws are always passed AFTER the fact and AFTER many animals are tortured, abused and killed.

[slick]

Congratulations Katie! Moosmom took the words right out of my mouth! You are a hero in my eyes!! Thank you on behalf of all pets everywhere.

[FindMatt]

Hi there,

Thanks for your kind words, however I don't consider myself a hero by any means. I just did what I had to.
I saw the torture video in court and I wouldn't have been able to go home and look at myself in the mirror if I didn't try to help in some way.
There were quite a few people directly involved in the search that deserve as much, if not more, recognition and credit.
Detective Gordon Scott and Detective-Constable John Margetson of Toronto Police (14 Division) & Amy White and John Dobranski of the Toronto Humane Society are some of the most passionate, dedicated professionals in the city.
As far as our animal cruelty laws, there have been no significant changes since 1892. I'd like to thank that we, as a society, have evolved enough to elicit such a change. Our animals should no longer be considered 'Property' (which is what the law classes them as right now). For more info on getting things changed, you can visit a great Toronto-based website - the Toronto Coalition for AntiCruelty Legislation: www.anticruelty.ca
Take care and again, thank-you.

Katie Woodward

[carole]

Reading this thread made me feel physically ill, i cant get the horror of it all out of my mind, i just cant believe this world has such evil morons in it.
I have to say i wish i had not read it, but i cant bury my head in the sand, thank goodness those !@&*@!#%# were caught.
I cant bring myself to say anymore on the subject, the feelings i have for that animals torture overwhelm me.:( :( :mad: :mad: :mad:

[FindMatt]

Originally posted by carole
Reading this thread made me feel physically ill, i cant get the horror of it all out of my mind, i just cant believe this world has such evil morons in it.
I have to say i wish i had not read it, but i cant bury my head in the sand, thank goodness those !@&*@!#%# were caught.
I cant bring myself to say anymore on the subject, the feelings i have for that animals torture overwhelm me.:( :( :mad: :mad: :mad:

Carole,

While I respect your feelings, I must say that if we ignore these horrific acts of violence they will, most certainly, continue.
We cannot let the perpetrators of these crimes get away with their actions and so we must face them and do something about it.
Take care,

Katie Woodward
www.findmatt.org

[carole]

oh i could not agree more, like i said i dont want to bury my head in the sand, i just wish i had not seen it really, as it haunts me, i cried my eyes out last nite just thinking of what this poor creature went through, it gave me nightmares.
I commend you, and i would never stand by and let an animal suffer in any way myself, i would be the first to dob someone in for animal cruelty even if it were my own family.
I could not bring myself to read any further, but i do hope this evil moron gets punished, i believe the punishment does not fit the crime, i think its time we as a nation did something about this, if there is anything i can do on this side of the world, petitions etc just let me know., and i will do my best to help .
STAMP OUT ALL CRUELTY.
I know a lot of people wont agree with me, but the old law and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, really should apply in some cases.

[FindMatt]

Originally posted by carole
oh i could not agree more, like i said i dont want to bury my head in the sand, i just wish i had not seen it really, as it haunts me, i cried my eyes out last nite just thinking of what this poor creature went through, it gave me nightmares.
I commend you, and i would never stand by and let an animal suffer in any way myself, i would be the first to dob someone in for animal cruelty even if it were my own family.
I could not bring myself to read any further, but i do hope this evil moron gets punished, i believe the punishment does not fit the crime, i think its time we as a nation did something about this, if there is anything i can do on this side of the world, petitions etc just let me know., and i will do my best to help .
STAMP OUT ALL CRUELTY.
I know a lot of people wont agree with me, but the old law and eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, really should apply in some cases.

Carole,

Thank-you for your response.
The nature of this case is very horrific. It is something that, after watching the video and being present during court proceedings, has haunted me for over a year now.
I can, however, find some comfort in knowing we got the third young man who participated in the video. We know who he is and he is no longer walking our streets. Also, the sentence given to one of the convicted (Jesse Power) is being appealled. He originally received 90 days of jail time to be served on weekends (so as not to interfere with schooling) but we are hoping for more this time around. The appeal is on May 28 (more info at www.findmatt.org/the_future.htm)
I just wanted to add that while I do understand everyones frustrations with this case, I cannot condone violence directed towards the involved individuals.
Thanks again,

Katie Woodward
www.findmatt.org

[IttyBittyKitty]

Oh MY GOD this made me cry my eyes out! Both the Kensington cat and Krista! That picture of beautiful little Krista just tore my heart to peices. If she didn't have a furrever home, I'd offer her one right here and now even though I'm only allowed one cat and am many continents away!

This is truly a symptom of a very sick society (not just Canada, but all Western societies). When are people going to WAKE UP? These disgusting, vile, evil animal abusers of today are tomorrows child rapists, wife-beaters and SERIAL KILLERS! I would bet a million dollars that in ten years to come at least one of these horrible men will be an infamous for one of the above crimes! THEN will everyone will be sorry for giving them lenient sentances? For school indeed! Well, who on Earth wants their child to be in the same school as one of these individuals?

We had a similar case in Brisbane where a young lad brought home a staffy puppy. His dad did not want to keep the puppy, which is fair enough, but his outporing of violence towards the puppy (resulting in its death) was absolutely sickening. The sick bastard went straight to Wacol jail where my uncle is a screw and hopefully giving him hell!!!!

GOOD ON YOU Katie Woodward for all your hard work - you are definitely a hero in my eyes! :D:D:D You have done that poor defenseless cat a great deed! My lovely kitty Pixel sends you kisses and headbumpies for standing up for what is right! Do keep us updated on your search for Kensington's Meowmie and Daddy and any other matters relating to the precious furry ones!

Just a question ... what chain of events lead you to being involved in the courtcase in which the video was shown?

I am sorry to rant and rave but these stories disgust me to the very core of my soul, and make me want to throw up. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[FindMatt]

Hi there,

Thanks for your response.
Unfortunately, both cats you speak of (Kensington and Krista) are deceased. Kensington was the cat from the torture video, while Krista suffered burns in a seperate incident and succumbed to her injuries a short while later.
If you want to stay updated on the case I'm working on, you can join the official mailing list. The address is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/kensingtoncat/join/ (Please be aware that while this case is a graphic one, every effort is made to ensure that the mailing list is suitable for those who wish to be kept updated on the case, but do not want to be inundated with the disturbing details).
To answer your other question, about how I got involved in this case... I was involved in animal rights for about 2 years at the time and I was scanning the newspapers for animal issues. I saw a story about the cat case and found out that one of the court dates was coming up for Jesse Power & Anthony Wennekers (2 of the 3 involved). I went to the court dates with a friend and become involved in the case from there on, with the Find Matt Campaign and later, "Kensington's" Campaign - (the latter is still active).
Hope this answers your questions.
Take care,

Katie Woodward
www.findmatt.org

[emily_the_spoiled]

Hello everyone,

I just thought that I would give you the latest update on this case.

http://www.canada.com/national/story.asp?id=455A3C78-1C88-45FD-BFB4-C5DEC492507E

[IttyBittyKitty]

That judge was sooo stupid, how could anyone be any more cruel to animal then those three vile individuals were? Well, like the article said, I don't think I'd want to know!

[carole]

I had hoped they would THROW THE BOOK AT THEM, as the saying goes, i often thought maybe to rehabilitate these monsters, they should have to spend 2 years working with animals at a shelter(totally supervised of course) scooping up the pooh etc etc, but i wondered if this would maybe make them worse towards animals and hate them even more, or would it teach them to love them i dunno any thoughts on this idea?

[BastetsMum]

Rehabilitation only works when the person WANTS to be rehabilitated.

These men didn't see it was wrong in what they did (It makes me sick thinking about it so I won't repeat it again).

Therefore Rehabilitation would be a wasted effort and will only begin to resent animals more. Personally I beleive a life ban and photographs and names of these nasty people should be published in animal newsletters and other such places to warn potential breeders and animal dealers not to deal with these people.

A life ban on owning pets should be compulsory and if caught with even a guppy should be sentenced to a minimum 5 years in prison with no chance of parole. Councelling should be compulsary as well with a psychiatric assessment.

Lets see how many people enact out cruel violence on animals again!

[kitten645]

This is truly disgusting and while I am not an advocate of capital punishment I regard harming animals and children the worst possible offence. I do not even consider these "young men" because this cruelty is beyond human. I will not allow such a terrible missuse of space to be in my species. Sadly animal cruelty laws are practically non-exsistant not ONLY in Canada but in all the world. I believe the UK is among the most progressive in regards to animal rights. I also know that this horror is not just the "western" world. Animals are treated terribly in all parts of the world. The thing that makes this even more horrible and what people who believe "it's just an animal" should know that this sort of behavior inevitably leads to equal horrors toward people. See Jeffrey Daumer(sp?). Such disregard for a life that cannot defend itself should reap the harshest of punishments. I don't believe that anyone commiting this sort of act can be "rehabilitated". Where does one go after doing something so against every "human" compassion??

[carole]

Well i tend to agree with you, they have to want to be rehabilitated firstly. and i think forcing it on them in those circumstances would only make them more resentful towards animals.
But maybe not in this particular horrific case, but there maybe some who can and could be rehabilitated, they do try this here for other crimes against humans, and in some cases it works.
Still LOCKING THEM AWAY and throwing AWAY THE KEY, could and would not be good enough for them in my personal opinion, in this particular case.

[IttyBittyKitty]

Originally posted by kitten645
The thing that makes this even more horrible and what people who believe "it's just an animal" should know that this sort of behavior inevitably leads to equal horrors toward people. See Jeffrey Daumer(sp?). Such disregard for a life that cannot defend itself should reap the harshest of punishments. I don't believe that anyone commiting this sort of act can be "rehabilitated". Where does one go after doing something so against every "human" compassion??

Jeffrey Dahmer is but one example...

Some of you may have heard of the "Homocidal Triad" ... in almost all retrospective assessments of serial murderers, they have found childhood/adolescent history of two of three behaviours, one of which is cruelty to animals.

I would bet a million dollars that at least one of these vile, disgusting individuals will one day be arrested for rape and/or murder. Those who commit such aberrant acts against any creature do so because they derive satisfaction from it, and they will not stop. The lesson that these creeps will learn from being in prison? Don't get caught. That's the only lesson that violent criminals ever learn.

The price that society pays for ignoring cruelty to animals is that one day, a human being will die at the hands of these men in the same fashion. THEN, and only then, will everyone bleat on about how "it all could have been prevented."

Rehabilitation, when it comes to cruel criminal acts, is a farce. I am thoroughly against giving killers, child molesters, and rapists a second chance. They certainly didn't give their victims a second chance. In the case of murder, the victim gets the death penalty and the perpetrator may walk away with just 10 years served behind bars.

We need to do away with these ridiculous ideas.

EDITED ... TO ..er... tone it down a bit as the Mayors are away and we promised to be good!!

[IttyBittyKitty]

Oh dear, I think I am getting too carried away. I'll bet this thread will get banished to the Dog House very soon!

[carole]

Not at all, you are passionate about this, there is nothing wrong with that, i just want to make myself a little clearer, i actually am not really for rehabilitation in those kind of cases either, i agree with you, as far as i am concerned there are very few who will actually change, and only a handful of cases that deserve this kind of 2nd chance.
I am no phsycologist, but i wonder what makes certain people actually get a cat or dog and then decide to mistreat it, why did they get it in the first place, to MISTREAT it, its something i just will never understand.
We had a case just yesterday of this 68 yr old farmers who starved his sheep and sheep dogs, he went to court, he was not a bit sorry, he did nothing wrong as far as he is concerned, he claimed he was producing lean meat, yeah right, the judge and jury did not believe him either, a young guy who once worked with him, stated at one time he was not like that, a stubborn old fool now, and liked to help other people, so what changed him i wonder.
He was fined seven thousand dollars, 400 hrs community work, and had to forfeit his dog(thank goodness) and was not allowed to own any more animals for five yrs, his reaction was simply oh well i am too old to be doing that anymore, he seemed very arrogant.

[IttyBittyKitty]

I didn't think that anyone on the Pet Talk boards would be advocates for the rehabilitation of seriously depraved offenders! You least of all, since you have been reading up on this case quite a bit.

You know, even eminent psychologists, psychiatrists and criminologists are often stumped by the questions you raise - why do people do such things? To me, it's a matter of choice. There are those out there who come from the same backgrounds as depraved criminals, and posess the same mental and intellectual characteristics, but never become criminals, never harm an animal or human being. So what is so different about those who do?

Nothing.

They just make a choice, pure and simple.

There is no such thing as being a slave of one's own circumstance. Just as the law-abiding citizens choose not to become criminals, those who take the other path should be made to pay the appropriate price for doing so.

[carole]

Ittybittykitty i suggest you re-read my threads, i DID NOT say i was for rehabilitation for these depraved criminals, so go back and read it all again plz. AS IF I would be, come on NO WAY girl.
If i worded my threads wrong forgive me, i obviously did not get through what i was trying to say here, you missed my points and mis-understood thats all.
I was merely stating it has worked in some cases, i wondered if an added punishment for cruelty to animals, (I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS CASE AT ALL-IT WAS TOO HORRIFIC TO EVEN SUGGEST SUCH A THING) but in cases not near as severe, if they could spend some time working SUPERVISED ALL THE TIME at an animal shelter and learn to love and appreciate animals, but i guess it was a silly idea really, and would not work, because these people just arent like you and me, lets face it.

[carole]

Originally posted by carole
Well i tend to agree with you, they have to want to be rehabilitated firstly. and i think forcing it on them in those circumstances would only make them more resentful towards animals.
But maybe not in this particular horrific case, but there maybe some who can and could be rehabilitated, they do try this here for other crimes against humans, and in some cases it works.
Still LOCKING THEM AWAY and throwing AWAY THE KEY, could and would not be good enough for them in my personal opinion, in this particular case.
Ittybittykitty, maybe my first thread confused you, when i was referring to rehabiltating monsters, i did not mean the ones who did this horrendous crime, i have re-read that thread and i did not explain myself properly, my apologies there, but if you read this thread and others you will c I AM NOT FOR IT IN MOST CASES. just wanted to explain this to you, so you dont have the wrong idea about me and where i am coming from ok.
I would HATE it if anyone on pet-talk thought that i agreed that these morons deserved a 2nd chance of any description, words cannot express how i really feel about them

[carole]

Originally posted by carole
Not at all, you are passionate about this, there is nothing wrong with that, i just want to make myself a little clearer, i actually am not really for rehabilitation in those kind of cases either, i agree with you, as far as i am concerned there are very few who will actually change, and only a handful of cases that deserve this kind of 2nd chance.
I am no phsycologist, but i wonder what makes certain people actually get a cat or dog and then decide to mistreat it, why did they get it in the first place, to MISTREAT it, its something i just will never understand.
We had a case just yesterday of this 68 yr old farmers who starved his sheep and sheep dogs, he went to court, he was not a bit sorry, he did nothing wrong as far as he is concerned, he claimed he was producing lean meat, yeah right, the judge and jury did not believe him either, a young guy who once worked with him, stated at one time he was not like that, a stubborn old fool now, and liked to help other people, so what changed him i wonder.
He was fined seven thousand dollars, 400 hrs community work, and had to forfeit his dog(thank goodness) and was not allowed to own any more animals for five yrs, his reaction was simply oh well i am too old to be doing that anymore, he seemed very arrogant.
If you read this one Ittybittykitty, you will c im saying i am not really for rehab in these kind of cases and they dont deserve a 2nd chance.. only a handful of cases might, if any.
I hope this clears things up for you and you realise I AM ON YOUR SIDE :)

[IttyBittyKitty]

Originally posted by carole
Ittybittykitty i suggest you re-read my threads, i DID NOT say i was for rehabilitation for these depraved criminals, so go back and read it all again plz. AS IF I would be, come on NO WAY girl.
If i worded my threads wrong forgive me, i obviously did not get through what i was trying to say here, you missed my points and mis-understood thats all.
I was merely stating it has worked in some cases, i wondered if an added punishment for cruelty to animals, (I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT THIS CASE AT ALL-IT WAS TOO HORRIFIC TO EVEN SUGGEST SUCH A THING) but in cases not near as severe, if they could spend some time working SUPERVISED ALL THE TIME at an animal shelter and learn to love and appreciate animals, but i guess it was a silly idea really, and would not work, because these people just arent like you and me, lets face it.

We are both getting confused! What I was saying in my last thread was that I know that you would take the same view about rehabilitation of nasties as I would :) I should have worded it a lot clearer!!! Your idea wasn't a silly one, but I think, as you say, that these guys are way beyond help.

Let's kiss and make up, hey? Save all the anger for the BADDIES! :D

[FindMatt]

Hi there,

There have been some interesting points made in this thread since I last visited... a few of which I wanted to comment on.
First -- the motive behind this particular torture video: On the video you can clearly hear one of the young men ask 'So why are we doing this?' - Anothers response is 'I don't even know yet' -- HOWEVER -- in defense, it was brought up that the video was a statement on meat-eating. It was also noted that Jesse Power and Anthony Wennekers pleaded guilty and a guilty plea is a sign of remorse, according to the defense attornies of the young men.
It is my opinion, after being in the same courtroom as Jesse, Anthony and the recently-captured Matt, that none are remorseful for their actions.
On the subject of rehabilitation. It was brought up in this thread that there is something called a 'homicide triangle' which involves 3 factors, that when combined, can result in a higher instance of murderers and the like. The 3 factors are: bed-wetting, fire-starting and animal abuse.
As a point of interest, there were psychiatric evaluations done of Mr. Wennekers and Mr. Power - the results stated that there was no sign of mental illness.
It has been suggested that perpetrators of animal abuse crimes be made to spend time with animals as part of their punishment. This idea is something I strongly disagree with, for several reasons.
That's it for now.
Take care,

Katie Woodward
www.findmatt.org
Kensington's Campaign - take a look!

[carole]

I dont know why, but it seems i say things and it gets misconstrued.
I want to make myself very very clear on this, i DONOT consider rehab, for this particular sinister evil crime even a consideration, and i was merely wondering if maybe in some cases, much minor abuse, if it indeed would work at all, i was not stating i personally think this is what should be done, just putting a suggestion forward, anything that stops this horrendous animal abuse in our world today is all i am for.
So please dont think for one moment, i am for this, IM NOT ok, and ittybittykitty, its fine u know that, i was never angry at you in the first place ok.

[IttyBittyKitty]

I know where you stand, and so does Katie. She's just been away from this thread for some time. I know you weren't angry at me, you were frustrated and angry at the horrid people who did this vile act...

Your idea about working with animals is a great idea, and it would probably work in cases of neglect and cases of small children who abuse animals. I think it would also work for other crimes such as B+E, drink driving, etc. Nothing like working with animals to teach a little human decency!

:)

[carole]

Thanks ittybittykitty, thats exactly what ive been trying to say, i guess im just not good at getting my point across, you are right, i just think in those kinda cases as u suggested it might be worth giving it a try anything that cuts down on animal abuse is what im for, united we stand for sure .:)

[IttyBittyKitty]

In fact, the younger we teach children and adolescents about respecting animals and respecting other humans, the better. You are guaranteed better results when you start with children - that's the problem, too many parents are just too lazy to teach good values to their children.

I'll just bet that all of the Pet Talker's children will grow up to be wonderful, well-adjusted people - model citizens really :D

[smokey the elder]

This business of can "baddies" be rehabbed is related to the nature vs nurture argument in sociology. All the genetic markers, chemistry, etc. notwithstanding, the power of good parenting is now being scientifically quantified! (Chemical and Engineering News, June 2 2003 issue.)

Young people should be taught to respect all living things, whether by parents, teachers, older siblings, other relatives, or clergy.

I'll get off my soapbox now. I haven't got on one in awhile.;)