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Lady's Human
12-13-2011, 02:16 PM
Most of the board knows I work for the US Postal Service.

What most of the board doesn't know is that for the last 2 weeks I have been calling, emailing, and writing every Congressional representative, Senator, State and Local representative in my area trying to fight the closure of the Postal Processing facility I work for.

This afternoon I received a notice from one of the Congressional aides who has been extremely generous with his time notifying me that the Congressman has joined with his colleagues to introduce the Postal Service Protection Act.

Here's a link to the release:

http://hinchey.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1798:hinchey-introduces-legislation-to-help-stop-postal-service-layoffs-and-service-reductions-&catid=71:2011-press-releases

Before the knee jerk bailout comments start, let me just say this: Without something being done to provide some sanity to Postal Service, there will be problems for many people. Ebay is a sales site on the internet, but without shipping, they don't have a business. The Postal service provides competition to keep rates low. Veterans who receive VA medical care get their scrips through the post office, as do many others. Payroll checks, SS checks, and other tangibles that people rely on a timely delivery of would see a major negative impact, as without legislation to direct them otherwise, the USPS has decided that delivery standards will cease.

I would ask everyone who resides in the US to contact their legislators about this. The Postal Service is one of the few entities specifically authorized in the US Constitution. It's time Congress reversed the devastating 2006 PAEA legislation (which requires pre-payment of 75 years of retiree benefits in 10 years) and fixes the finances of the entity they have ignored for so long.

Karen
12-13-2011, 02:21 PM
As we moved a few months ago, I have to find my new rep's email or phone, but will do so. This is important, especially for people - unlike me - who live in rural areas, and for elderly residents no matter where they live.

We can make a difference everyone! Let our representatives know this is more important than partisan bickering, and debating who will be president over a year from now.

I told him to put this in General, as the Postal Service affects all of us!

Lady's Human
12-13-2011, 03:16 PM
For those of you who don't know who your legislator is, here's a link for a locator:

http://whoismyrepresentative.com/

Freckles
12-13-2011, 03:46 PM
Done for Oregon.

Lady's Human
12-13-2011, 03:51 PM
Thank you.

And thanks to Congressman DeFazio for calling for the firing of the PMG.

happylabs
12-13-2011, 04:05 PM
Definitely going to contact mine. I am opposed to the closings they are talking about.

I work in a city where the population is close to 30,000 and growing with the recent activity with the gas industry. They are talking of closing the processing center here and moving it to a city about 2 hours away. The local mail that my office produces daily will go to another center 2 hours away and then back here. I cannot imagine the delay the mail is going to have if they do this. We send out time sensitive documents from our office.

My father worked for the U.S. Postal service for 30 years. He was a dedicated employee and it saddens him to see what is happening. I know there is always a line at the local post office here. What are the people shipping packages to do? I would much rather use the Post Office.

Lady's Human
12-13-2011, 04:35 PM
And a small piece of good news:


Statement on Delay of Closing or Consolidation of Post Offices

and Mail Processing Facilities

The U.S. Postal Service, in response to a request made by multiple U.S. Senators, has agreed to delay the closing or consolidation of any Post Office or mail processing facility until May 15, 2012. The Postal Service will continue all necessary steps required for the review of these facilities during the interim period, including public input meetings.



The Postal Service hopes this period will help facilitate the enactment of comprehensive postal legislation. Given the Postal Service’s financial situation and the loss of mail volume, the Postal Service must continue to take all steps necessary to reduce costs and increase revenue.



The Postal Service receives no tax dollars for operating expenses and relies on the sale of postage, products and services to fund its operations.

lizbud
12-13-2011, 06:26 PM
It's time Congress reversed the devastating 2006 PAEA legislation (which requires pre-payment of 75 years of retiree benefits in 10 years) and fixes the finances of the entity they have ignored for so long.


This sounds outrageous. 75 years? No other Agency or Dept is required
to fund for that length of time. No wonder the USPS is always broke.

cassiesmom
12-13-2011, 06:48 PM
LH, quick question: Is the government not allowed to provide bail-out funds to its own operations? If Congress can act to bail out big corporations, why are they not able to do the same for USPS. Is it because USPS is a government entity?

The post office in LaGrange has a machine that I love. You can use it to purchase stamps even after the post office has closed, and if you need just a few-- it custom prints a tiny little stamp-like sticker for you with the appropriate postage on it. I needed two stamps at 5 o'clock on Sunday afternoon to send bills out the next morning - Problem solved.

What I miss is that they've eliminated the early A.M. pickup. Used to be that I could drop stuff in the box and it would go out around 7 the next morning. Now the first collection isn't till noon so I have to allow an extra day.

Lady's Human
12-13-2011, 07:25 PM
The USPS is off-budget, so it receives no tax money other than what the government pays for postage. In 2006 things looked rosy for the Postal service, and Congress decided, in a lame duck session, that rather than allow the USPS to use the money to fund continuing operations, that the USPS should use the money to pre-fund retirement benefits for employees who haven't even been born yet.

If you have a mortgage, and the bank decides to change a 30 year note to a 10 year note by fiat, it might cause you a few financial difficulties, and that's exactly what happened.

Then came the recession, which cut down on the amount of mail being sent.

Minus the PAEA legislation, the Postal service has actually turned a $1 billion profit over the last 5 years.

The money the USPS is losing is entirely due to badly flawed legislation, and it's time to fix it.

Lady's Human
12-16-2011, 02:13 PM
The Postal Service, after having their arms twisted by 14 Senators, has agreed to a five month moratorium on closing post offices and moving mail processing plants.

They're still going to do all the groundwork for the moves, but will make no physical moves until after 15 May 2012.

Hopefully, this will give Congress time to pass some sane legislation.

With Rep. Hinchey's bill in the house and Sen. Sander's bill in the Senate being close mirrors of each other, it would be nice to see both houses move on the legislation, pass it with little to no partisan wrangling in reconciliation as the bills are near mirrors of each other, and get it to the President's desk for signature.

I'd like to thank Rep. Hinchey and Rep. Hanna for their support, as well as the 14 Senators who forced the moratorium. We've had a lot of support on the state side as well, with NY State Senators Libous and O'Mara writing letters opposing the consolidations as well.

The support we've been given in NY State is bipartisan. I can only hope that the rest of the Congress can see what a mess this will create if nothing is done legislatively.

Freckles
12-16-2011, 04:36 PM
Got an email from Oregon Rep Earl Blumenauer this morning with positive comments.
States he is cosponsor of the USPS Pension Obligation Recalculation and Restoration Act of 2011. That's a good thing? ;)

Lady's Human
12-16-2011, 05:13 PM
It's one of several bills which would be a start to fixing this mess. Thanks for the help!

cassiesmom
04-14-2012, 02:42 AM
LH, there was a demonstration today in downtown Chicago about this, and I thought of you.

Here's a story. http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2012/04/13/letter-carriers-rally-against-downsizing-legislation/

moosmom
04-14-2012, 09:30 AM
While people complain every time the price of a postage stamp goes up..where can you get ANYTHING for that price??? And while you and I have had issues here, and some heated debates, I'm ALWAYS happy to help a friend.

CT covered on my end.

Good luck, dude!!;)

cassiesmom
04-15-2012, 01:03 AM
S.B. 1789 which outlines a lot of changes to the USPS, is to come up for a vote soon. I believe our Sen. Kirk is still recovering from his stroke and brain surgery so I 'll contact Sen. Durbin.

Lady's Human
04-15-2012, 09:07 AM
S. 1789 is, as it currently stands, a disaster for the post office.

THere's nothing in it to protect mailing standards, which means that you might get your letter to the court, IRS, or other agency in a couple days, or in a couple weeks. With that kind of service, why not just hire a courier?

it's pandering to the mailers, but at the same time it will force the bulk mailers to go elsewhere, as who wants to mail an ad through the postal service if you can't guarantee it's going to get there before the sale? As of a months ago, residents in MD were still receiving Black Friday mailers. The postal service consolidated plants to save money, and destroyed service standards.

Coming soon to your mailbox nationwide!

cassiesmom
04-15-2012, 04:07 PM
S.B. 1789 which outlines a lot of changes to the USPS, is to come up for a vote soon. I believe our Sen. Kirk is still recovering from his stroke and brain surgery so I 'll contact Sen. Durbin.

LH, I would like to revise my post because the way I typed it is not very clear. I heard on the news yesterday that there was a small demonstration downtown at Federal Plaza. It was USPS employees trying to get the word out about the financial problems the USPS is having, and that they are opposed to post office closings and lay-offs. The reporter talked about S.B. 1789 which is to come up for a vote soon. The people at the demonstration feel it is not a well-worded bill and hope it will not be successful. The way the reporter explained the bill, it did not sound very clear to me as a postal service user. One of our two senators (Mark Kirk) had a stroke about two or three months ago. He needed brain surgery after that and he is still recovering from the stroke and the surgery. I am not sure how his Senate responsibilities are covered, but I don't guess he is able to vote on bills at this time. So I will contact our other senator who is Dick Durbin. I'd like him to not vote for a poorly prepared bill, and I would not like to see post offices closed or people losing their jobs.

Cataholic
04-16-2012, 01:51 PM
I thought the postal service started losing money years ago, when e-mail took off, and automatic bill pay, purchasing online (in which often times a private carrier is utilized rather than the USPS) became all the rage. I try my best to use email whenever I can, to save money, sure, but to protect the environment, too. No paper, no fuel to get stuff from point A to point B.

I never understood why we needed Saturday mail delivery. Just drop it, and that - yes- eliminates jobs, but every industry has had this happen to them. Layoffs- all the major auto manufacturers, our local Jobs and Family Services just laid off some huge amount of employees, as so much is automated anymore, people aren't necessary. Do I like those facts? Not really, but, I dislike spending money on needless things more.

I have nothing against the US mail, acknowledge that it is a great, and reasonable service(every day, on time, etc., ), but the price of postage does go up and up and up, and if I can avoid that cost, I do it.

Karen
04-16-2012, 02:14 PM
I never understood why we needed Saturday mail delivery. Just drop it, and that - yes- eliminates jobs, but every industry has had this happen to them. Layoffs- all the major auto manufacturers, our local Jobs and Family Services just laid off some huge amount of employees, as so much is automated anymore, people aren't necessary. Do I like those facts? Not really, but, I dislike spending money on needless things more.

Saturday delivery is far more important to some people than others, Johanna. Folks who rely on getting their medications, and social security checks often are living so close to the bone that waiting an extra two days can be detrimental. Mail service is rural areas is often a lifeline. It's not to say it would impossible to adjust without it, but it would be a hardship on some folks. Maybe they could stop Saturday delivery in certain areas, like big industrial areas, or something, but it seems the rural folks tend to be hit hardest with some things, let's keep Saturday for them!

Lady's Human
04-16-2012, 02:51 PM
I thought the postal service started losing money years ago, when e-mail took off, and automatic bill pay, purchasing online (in which often times a private carrier is utilized rather than the USPS) became all the rage. I try my best to use email whenever I can, to save money, sure, but to protect the environment, too. No paper, no fuel to get stuff from point A to point B.

I never understood why we needed Saturday mail delivery. Just drop it, and that - yes- eliminates jobs, but every industry has had this happen to them. Layoffs- all the major auto manufacturers, our local Jobs and Family Services just laid off some huge amount of employees, as so much is automated anymore, people aren't necessary. Do I like those facts? Not really, but, I dislike spending money on needless things more.

I have nothing against the US mail, acknowledge that it is a great, and reasonable service(every day, on time, etc., ), but the price of postage does go up and up and up, and if I can avoid that cost, I do it.

The Postal Service started "losing money" when Congress decided that the USPS would have to pay 75 years worth of retiree health care expenses in 10 years.

Online shopping has actually dramatically increased USPS parcel service business.

As far as needless things, define needless? As Karen stated, Saturday mail delivery is essential for some. Veterans and retirees frequently get their meds via USPS, and UPS and FEDEX both rely on the Postal Service for last mile delivery in rural areas. They drop off the parcels at the local post office, and they are delivered by the mail carrier, and the USPS delivers, saving money for UPS and FEDEX. If I order online, regardless who the actual paid carrier is, it's a crapshoot whether UPS, FEDEX or the postal service will actually deliver the item.

If you like the every day on time service, then Congress has to act. If nothing is done, that's all out the window.

For less than $.50, you can, at present, put a letter in the mail and have it delivered fairly reliably anywhere in the US within 3 days. UPS or FEDEX would charge $10 for the same service.

USPS pricing also holds down UPS and FEDEX parcel shipping prices.

Without that competition, rates go up.

Congress needs to act, and soon, on something other than HR 2309 and S 1789, as those bills would be disasters for customer service and the employees. Rural post offices are essential for small communities, and it is a Constitutional duty of Congress to ensure that that service remains.

The Republicans made a big stunt of reading the Constitution at the start of this house session. Maybe they need to read it again?

Cataholic
04-17-2012, 10:27 AM
Saturday delivery is far more important to some people than others, Johanna. Folks who rely on getting their medications, and social security checks often are living so close to the bone that waiting an extra two days can be detrimental. Mail service is rural areas is often a lifeline. It's not to say it would impossible to adjust without it, but it would be a hardship on some folks. Maybe they could stop Saturday delivery in certain areas, like big industrial areas, or something, but it seems the rural folks tend to be hit hardest with some things, let's keep Saturday for them!

They would adjust by having the meds ordered a day or two earlier, have their SS checks deposited electronically (which saves more money). And, unless the rural people have some 'in' with the banking system, they can't draw on their check until it clears anyhow. Probably Tuesday am, best.

Change is super hard for people, I get that. Losing one's job is heart wrenchingly scary- I totally get that. But, losing money- government "owned" business or not- needs to be examined from a cost perspective. Cuts need to be made, offices/plants/distribution centers need to be closed. I think Saturday service is a redundancy.

I never gave postage much thought before I started my own practice. I have electronically paid all my household expenses for a couple of years now (and LOVE it), and two other expenses are electronically deposited. Now? Ten letters costs me near $5.00. That seems inconsequential until you realize ten letters is probably 3 days of 'work' for me. Do the math (cause I can't). It adds up.

I strive to email as much as I can as it saves ME money. Me, the consumer. So, I see it differently, as I don't depend on the USPS to support me. Heck, I don't even go to my mail box every day. That is just a convenience we all have taken as a necessity.

There isn't any doubt in my mind the frequent use of the internet and email has reduced the money coming into the USPS. Sure, other things may affect it, but, the bread and butter business- selling of postal services- has made a big difference.

I can still remember the USPS "two day mail"....LOL, it should have read, "the two day- maybe cause we don't guarantee it-mail". You PAID for two day mail...but you just might not get it. That, to me, is part of the problem. When there are no other competitors...service can lag. And, of course, the USPS has made great strides in the mailing service. Great strides. They had to, to stay competitive with the other major giants.

I can't remember the last time I purchased something online and it came to me by the US Mail. Maybe it is the area I live in, but my packages come FedEx or UPS. My medications come to me FedEx, now that I think of it.

Dunno. I don't dislike the PO at all, in fact the mail lady is someone I like to walk and chat with, if it happens that way. But, to say that they should somehow be exonerated from the recession or business practices that affect the rest of our world doesn't seem right.

pomtzu
04-17-2012, 11:03 AM
They would adjust by having the meds ordered a day or two earlier, have their SS checks deposited electronically (which saves more money). And, unless the rural people have some 'in' with the banking system, they can't draw on their check until it clears anyhow. Probably Tuesday am, best.



Exactly!! ! I'm a "rural person" and you have hit the nail on the head. My SS is a direct deposit, and if it wasn't and got delivered on a Saturday, I wouldn't be able to cash/deposit it till Monday anyway. And meds by mail - yes - order a few days ahead if that is an issue.

I do all of my bill pay and banking electronically. Not only does it save me writing a check and paying postage, but IMO it is more secure than USPS. I have also gone paperless on EVERYTHING. Not only does it cut down on the paper that I have to shred, but it also eliminates the chance of it getting delivered to the wrong address. Yes - it does happen. If I get other people's mail on occasion - then I'm positive some of mine is ending up in the wrong mailbox. I don't need my banking or credit card statements in anyone's hands but my own! If my postal carrier wants to deliver my junk mail to the wrong address, then that's fine with me.

So I'm another that thinks eliminating Saturday delivery is a good idea. Sorry, LH...........:(

Lady's Human
04-17-2012, 01:08 PM
Exactly!! ! I'm a "rural person" and you have hit the nail on the head. My SS is a direct deposit, and if it wasn't and got delivered on a Saturday, I wouldn't be able to cash/deposit it till Monday anyway. And meds by mail - yes - order a few days ahead if that is an issue.

I do all of my bill pay and banking electronically. Not only does it save me writing a check and paying postage, but IMO it is more secure than USPS. I have also gone paperless on EVERYTHING. Not only does it cut down on the paper that I have to shred, but it also eliminates the chance of it getting delivered to the wrong address. Yes - it does happen. If I get other people's mail on occasion - then I'm positive some of mine is ending up in the wrong mailbox. I don't need my banking or credit card statements in anyone's hands but my own! If my postal carrier wants to deliver my junk mail to the wrong address, then that's fine with me.

So I'm another that thinks eliminating Saturday delivery is a good idea. Sorry, LH...........:(


To those of you who think the USPS is losing money in the same way a business loses money, you're wrong.

The issue is simple, as stated above, the USPS has been required by Congress to make 75 years worth of financial obligations paid in advance in 10 years.

To put this in a manner that most people can understand, if you have a 30 year mortgage, and one year into the mortgage the company sent you a letter stating that they were unilaterally changing the terms of the mortgage and you were now required to make payments on a 5 year mortgage, would you be able to make those payments? Probably not.

Take the same situation, and you call the bank and say "okay, I can do that, but you're going to need to move money from a different account to pay the mortgage", and the bank says "no, you can't, we need that money, it's unavailable", would you be able to survive financially?

The USPS has between 50 to 90 billion in overpayments in various retiree accounts (GAO, 2 independent audits). Congress refuses to return that money.

The USPS has actually turned a profit over the last 5 years, minus the prepayment requirements.

Take a break from listening to what the media is putting out, and look at the audit results. They don't mesh.

The propaganda doesn't meet the reality various accountants have found.

As to the security of the mail? When was the last time a check in an envelope was hacked? There are major hacks constantly. The worst thing that might happen to a mailed check is it gets torn in the machine, and either returned to the sender or sent to the recipient with a note stating what happened.

You may not have a bank available on Saturday, Pom, but even out here in the sticks I dont have to drive far to find a bank branch open on saturday, and the local grocery store is more than willing to cash a SS check.

Compared to the amount of mail handled, the amount of mis-delivered mail is tiny, almost statistically insignificant, and is normally intercepted by the carrier before delivery.

Again, take a break from reading the propoganda and read the audits.

pomtzu
04-17-2012, 01:18 PM
To those of you who think the USPS is losing money in the same way a business loses money, you're wrong.

The issue is simple, as stated above, the USPS has been required by Congress to make 75 years worth of financial obligations paid in advance in 10 years.

To put this in a manner that most people can understand, if you have a 30 year mortgage, and one year into the mortgage the company sent you a letter stating that they were unilaterally changing the terms of the mortgage and you were now required to make payments on a 5 year mortgage, would you be able to make those payments? Probably not.

Take the same situation, and you call the bank and say "okay, I can do that, but you're going to need to move money from a different account to pay the mortgage", and the bank says "no, you can't, we need that money, it's unavailable", would you be able to survive financially?

The USPS has between 50 to 90 billion in overpayments in various retiree accounts (GAO, 2 independent audits). Congress refuses to return that money.

The USPS has actually turned a profit over the last 5 years, minus the prepayment requirements.

Take a break from listening to what the media is putting out, and look at the audit results. They don't mesh.

The propaganda doesn't meet the reality various accountants have found.

As to the security of the mail? When was the last time a check in an envelope was hacked? There are major hacks constantly. The worst thing that might happen to a mailed check is it gets torn in the machine, and either returned to the sender or sent to the recipient with a note stating what happened.

You may not have a bank available on Saturday, Pom, but even out here in the sticks I dont have to drive far to find a bank branch open on saturday, and the local grocery store is more than willing to cash a SS check.

Compared to the amount of mail handled, the amount of mis-delivered mail is tiny, almost statistically insignificant, and is normally intercepted by the carrier before delivery.

Again, take a break from reading the propoganda and read the audits.



So - wouldn't eliminating Saturday delivery save a whole pile of money? That's the point I was trying to get across - make cuts "somewhere". Isn't that a start in the right direction?

Lady's Human
04-17-2012, 01:41 PM
So - wouldn't eliminating Saturday delivery save a whole pile of money? That's the point I was trying to get across - make cuts "somewhere". Isn't that a start in the right direction?

Ending Saturday delivery would save nothing. The proposed changes to the postal service would actually start a death spiral for the USPS, as there is another independent audit out that states the USPS would LOSE an additional $5 billion due to business shifted elsewhere because of the changes in service standards and delivery days.

If Congress ends the pre-payment requirements, the USPS wouldn't be losing money.

If the USPS stopped spending money on boondoggles such as the new Flats Sorter machinery, it would save even more money. THey've spent billions on those machines to get a system that costs more to run than the systems it replaces, and doesn't sort mail as quickly as the old machines, the new machines also damage mailpieces at a horrendous rate, all to "save" money by increasing processing capacity on a dying mail class. As an example of efficiency, the older machines would be down about an hour on a catastrophic failure, only affecting delivery for a few towns. When the new machines go down, they're down for hours to days, affecting delivery for hundreds of towns, and costing the USPS millions in overtime.

pomtzu
04-17-2012, 04:48 PM
Ending Saturday delivery would save nothing.

That's pretty difficult to believe. I'm sure that working Saturday's for postal employees isn't done simply out of the goodness of their hearts. And gas, etc to run the trucks - is that free???.....and what about manning the post offices??? Maybe I view "would save nothing" differently tho.

Lady's Human
04-17-2012, 04:54 PM
Again, the loss of business to competition would more than offset any savings from ending Saturday delivery. If they end delivery, the post offices will still be open, mail will still be being processed 7 days/week, and there would be additional overtime costs due to a higher volume of mail on Mondays. Delivery, which is all they're talking about eliminating, is only the piece the public sees, the tip of the iceberg.

Why are stores open 24/7 now? They have to have a stock staff working in the store anyway, so they might as well gain a little revenue from employees they would have to have there anyway. Cutting their hours doesn't save them money, it just shifts the customers to the competition. Same idea with the post office cutting delivery. The clerks and processing personnel still have to process mail. It really doesn't save as much as you think.

Businesses which are in trouble don't under logical conditions cut service and raise prices and survive, but this is precisely what the postal service is proposing.

pomtzu
04-18-2012, 01:54 PM
Yikes LH - with postage rates what they are in some instances, the USPS should be knee-deep in $$$$$

I received an Express Mail flat rate envelope in my mailbox today. It shipped from Washington state to Delaware, 2 day delivery, not insured, to the tune of $18.95. I think that is somewhat pricey. :eek:

Lady's Human
04-25-2012, 06:58 PM
My sincere thanks to those who contacted their Senators.

S. 1789 passed this afternoon, heavily amended. While it still isn't a long term fix, it will provide some short term relief.

momoffuzzyfaces
04-26-2012, 02:04 PM
So - wouldn't eliminating Saturday delivery save a whole pile of money? That's the point I was trying to get across - make cuts "somewhere". Isn't that a start in the right direction?

When there is a Monday holiday, that would only give us a 3 day mail delivery. Not even working half a week they might as well just shut it down all together. :love:

Cataholic
04-26-2012, 03:38 PM
When there is a Monday holiday, that would only give us a 3 day mail delivery. Not even working half a week they might as well just shut it down all together. :love:
I am math impaired...so maybe I am missing something, but wouldnt that still be a four day mail delivery, Tu-Fri??

Pom- I received a single sheet of paper, certified mail....$5.00. I was ready to call the county commissioners (it was from the court system) AND the USPS...lol...

momoffuzzyfaces
04-26-2012, 03:45 PM
I am math impaired...so maybe I am missing something, but wouldnt that still be a four day mail delivery, Tu-Fri??

Pom- I received a single sheet of paper, certified mail....$5.00. I was ready to call the county commissioners (it was from the court system) AND the USPS...lol...

OOPS!!! Looks like I'm the math impaired one here. You are right. so sorry !!! :o:love:

Lady's Human
04-26-2012, 03:56 PM
Pom- I received a single sheet of paper, certified mail....$5.00. I was ready to call the county commissioners (it was from the court system) AND the USPS...lol...

And that same sheet of paper, sent via UPS, would have cost the court system $30.00 (Just did a UPS calculate time and cost for grins).

Cataholic
04-26-2012, 05:26 PM
And that same sheet of paper, sent via UPS, would have cost the court system $30.00 (Just did a UPS calculate time and cost for grins).
Two wrongs.....and all that.