My 12 year old lab killed a 5 month old kitten

[Animal _lover]

The dog grew up with cats first of all.
We ended up with two out of a litter of four feral kittens,the others did not survive.They were both due to get spayed today being they were 5 months old this week,but last night the gray kitty " BB " was rubbing up against the lab and the lab lashed out and bit her in the head severely and she died.I saw it happen and smacked the lab rather hard as fast as I could get out of the chair and held the kitten in my arms until she had passed.
This is a two fold tragedy , now I know the lab can not be trusted and second Feisty the surviving kitty is going to be searching the house for her sibling,soulmate all in vain.
I am going to keep the dog and kitten as separated as best I can and am thinking a muzzle for the dog if we are not in the house and maybe even when we are in the house.The dog has changed her life through her unwarranted action in the death of an innocent kitten.
I was so mad I almost put the dog down,but did not as reason came back to the forefront of my thoughts of the situation.
I buried poor little BB in the middle of the front of the yard along with the ashes of Z kitty we lost to laryngeal paralysis earlier this year(He would have been 12 years old this year) as well the ashes of our dog Brandy who would of been seventeen if she had lived two more months ,so little BB is in good company.
If anyone has any positive suggestions on what to do with our situation I welcome some advice as I am still stunned that this occurred.
Just writing about this tragedy will be therapy for me,but even as I write Feisty is making her third round through the house this morning looking for her friend.It breaks my heart and my wife is really taking it badly as it was she who found the feral kittens in the woods and saved their lives.
Picture of Feisty and BB as well as an older picture of Z kitty, Brandy,Ginny,Tia at dinner time.Plus Chrissy a Walker Tree Coon Hound that was abandoned at the end of hunting season last year and ended up at our property.
We are softies when it comes to the four legged creatures of the world.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Dirt11NC/FBB.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Dirt11NC/DSC01464-2.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Dirt11NC/Chrissy.jpg

[Freedom]

Oh NO!!! I have no ideas or suggestions. Just heart felt sympathies.

[Karen]

As I said in the other thread, I'd consider rehoming the kitten, for its own safety.

[Animal _lover]

As I said in the other thread, I'd consider rehoming the kitten, for its own safety.

I thought of that very solution.
We actually have been trying to find a home for the hound since January to no avail. It is not that easy to find a good home for an animal.Needless to say the hound is staying here at our domain in the woods and the neighbors seem to be OK with the new dog that will visit their yard from time to time.
There are so many cats and kittens where we live that are up for adoption it is a bleak outlook upon first glance,but I will try to look into this a bit in a day or so.We are both,the wife and I , still in shock over what happened.It made no sense the dog has never ever been aggressive towards cats except when she had a bone and then it was just a growl and showing teeth.She is getting old though and so her demeanor may be changing.
In the mean time I am just keeping them separated.
The poor kitten is looking for her sister and calling out for her, this too is a hard fact to deal with for us.
Thanks for your comment.You are correct it is the best answer if it can happen.

[Karen]

Maybe if you have a local pastor you know, see if they know an elder who might be lonely that a kitten would cheer up!

[katladyd]

A few years ago, my precious Miss Kitty was killed by a dog. I would put the dog down because the humane society in our area said a dog that does that may attack anything smaller than itself in the future. Sure enough, we asked that the dog NOT be put down and a year later, it mauled the neighbor's dog and small child. We DEMANDED that the dog be put down then, and it was. I know you love your dog, BUT IT KILLED A LIVING THING!!!!!:mad:

[luvofallhorses]

Agreed with Karen. You have to think what's best for your kitten... rehoming her may be best so the same thing doesn't happen as your dog obviously has quite a prey drive and you can't train or love it out.

Sorry for your loss, but even if dogs are raised with cats there is still a chance prey drive could kick in. Prey drive is normal in dogs, they don't do it out of resentment.. it just happens.

[Malibu's Mom]

Ok - firstly, I am sorry you had to witness this and am very sorry you lost the kitten. RIP BB. :love:

Let's look at this situation - small kitten rubs up against large dog, dog delivers a single fatal bite to the cat's head. I'm not seeing this as an intentional, deliberate killing at all. Sounds more like the dog was startled by the kitten's actions and lashed out of fear. Since the lab is 12, I wonder if her senses are impaired or if she has some sort of dementia which could lead to her being hypersensitive.

What was the dog doing at the time of the attack? Was she in proximity of a person, another animal, food, toys? There is ALWAYS a reason for a bite. Always. It may seem unprovoked to us, but it's not the case from the dog's POV.

When you keep a large dog with small animals, you are taking a chance in every situation. I have a multi-species household consisting of birds, cats and a large dog. I am fully aware that at any point my cats could kill my bird and my dog could kill my cats or my bird. It's very highly unlikely given the way I manage my animals, but things happen. You have to be comfortable with that risk when you put animals in that situation.

Glad you are considering rehoming the kitten. It's really the kindest option for everyone involved.

People forget that dogs are big, predatory animals with sharp teeth and that they know how to use them. We expect so much of them and they often live up to our high standards, but they can and often will kill things. It's disturbing and unsettling to witness, and very tragic in this kind of situation, but it happens, unfortunately.

And please don't be angry at your dog. It's not her fault and she shouldn't be punished for it. :(

[ToBeEvergreen]

The sheer size of the dog and the kitten may be the top contributers here.

Not to say there aren't gentle giants. BUT, large creatures who would normally NOT be dealing a fatal blow to a large cat or another dog can easily accidentally do so to a small thing. The dog did not, I don't think, growl and bare its teeth, and then shake the poor thing to death. He had a moment of doggy defense- he snapped at something, hard. To me, it does not sound like his intention was to hurt, certainly not to kill. I know you are angry at the dog, but it sounds like she has no history of violence. It sounds like a horrible accident, that probably startled the dog as well. That the dog was hit may have startled her as well, and especially because of her age I do NOT recommend ever using physical means like that, though I'm sure you were startled at the time, and I understand your main goal was to try and save the kitten.

The dog is 12- is she blind? Does she have any sort of dementia? Athritis (pains)? Food aggression? Deafness? Any number of old-dog problems can cause them to snap, out of cranky annoyance, startlement or more likely, pain. I've had the scars to prove it, as I have owned many older dogs. A blind one we had once, my mom went to cuddle him in his sleep (bad move for an old, blind ex racer) and he bit her on the head. Not hard enough to go to the hospital, but it was a learning experience, a painful one.

Just throwing in my two cents. I understand that there is a lot to consider. One thing I can say for sure, I would consider re-homing the remaining kitten for safety reasons, as you were thinking of doing!

I am very sorry for your loss. It is devestating for such a young life to be taken and to go through that first-hand.

[sasvermont]

I would not punish the dog. Sounds to me like the old dog just lashed out, not intending to kill the kitten. I would chalk it up to old age and bad timing. I would keep the kitten far away from the dog, even if you are near. It would take only one second for that to happen again.

I have a dog and three cats. They mix it up sometimes, but my dog is AFRAID of the cats. Prue, the dog, still goes after them if they are in the kitchen while food is being prepared. She herds them out of the kitchen by barking and going after them. It is her way of protecting her chance of getting food and not wanting the cats to have any part of it. I allow it. I don't reward her for it, I just don't mind her getting the cats out of the kitchen. They can be a pain in the butt when preparing dinner etc.

My heart goes out to you and your family. I imagine it will take years for you all to get that moment behind you. Forgive your dog, get a new home for the kitten, fast and let the 12 year old live out its life as it was before the kittens arrived.

Lesson learned.

[wolf_Q]

A few years ago, my precious Miss Kitty was killed by a dog. I would put the dog down because the humane society in our area said a dog that does that may attack anything smaller than itself in the future. Sure enough, we asked that the dog NOT be put down and a year later, it mauled the neighbor's dog and small child. We DEMANDED that the dog be put down then, and it was. I know you love your dog, BUT IT KILLED A LIVING THING!!!!!:mad:

I'm sorry for your loss but just because a dog "killed a living thing" does not mean it would kill anything smaller than itself. I have three huskies and a lab mix....any of them would kill a cat/small animal/bird if given the chance. They did kill a chicken and have killed several wild birds that flew into our yard. Does that mean they are going to kill a small dog or a child? My one husky is fearful of children and strangers so I can't say she's good with kids (though she's never tried to bite) but the other three are great with them. They know the difference between a child, dog, cat, bird, etc. they aren't dumb. My mom has two small dogs and she regularly dog-sits my dogs and my dogs do not try to eat her small dogs, and one is about the size of the chicken they killed (it flew into our yard). My dogs have a prey drive, they were born with it, it doesn't make them vicious child-eating dogs. I just don't let them around cats/birds/small animals.

As far as this case it sounds to me like the dog wasn't necessarily trying to kill the kitten since it was just a single bite she didn't maul the kitten. Older dogs can really change in personality I'm a groomer and I see a lot of dogs I've been grooming for years change when they get old. Dogs that would never try to bite do, they just don't have the tolerance they used to. I definitely would not let the kitten around the dog though if you can't rehome him then keep them separate like you have been doing. My older husky Nebo bit my younger huskies Keva and Skya in the face a couple of times when they were puppies. It was just a "hey I'm the boss leave me alone" bite he was not trying to really injure them but if they were a small kitten it could have been different. Sorry for your loss what a horrible thing to witness.

[Animal _lover]

Thanks one and all.
I do not think Tia was being anything ,but reactionary to the little kitten.I was so startled when this occurred I was trying to get her and the kitten separated and I am sure I over reacted as well towards the dog as I saw the kitten was doomed after the attack.It was more of a quick turn of the head and a snip more than an attack as the dog was laying in the middle of the floor.
I am trying to convince the wife that the kitten needs to be removed to a good home as trying to keep the kitten and the dog apart is a very difficult procedure.Actually rather taxing on the nerves for me.
Tia has had her share of problems growing up and has had both front legs operated on ,her stomach operated on and her right rear leg has a plate to hold the CCL together.She is twelve going on thirteen somewhat deaf and most likely does not see the best,but she never has shown aggression towards a cat except to half heartedly chase them off the cleared part of our property.My dear Brandy who lived until she was almost seventeen would catch field rats and bring them home.Actually brought a deer head home with a 3 point rack one time.We do live in the woods where people hunt.I do not hunt and never have just to be honest.I took the head and left it in the back of the property until some kid heard about it and asked if he could have it and I let him take home the skeletal head.
Friday the kitten gets neutered and then after she recovers hopefully the wife will see it would be best for the kitten to find it a loving home.
I do not ever want to go through the trauma I went through yesterday evening and I am still reeling from the loss .Nor ,more to the point do I want to endanger an animal.

Thanks again for all the comments.

[sasvermont]

I am glad you are doing ok now. It must have been difficult.

Maybe you could arm your kitten with an AK47. ;)

As the dogs gets older, more problems may come up. To be safe, I could find kitty kat a new residence.

[Animal _lover]

I am glad you are doing ok now. It must have been difficult.

Maybe you could arm your kitten with an AK47. ;)

As the dogs gets older, more problems may come up. To be safe, I could find kitty kat a new residence.

Thanks for the offer for the help on a new residence.I am working on getting the wife to see that the best thing for the kitty is to find a good home where there is no danger of an incident which just happened to her sister kitty occurring.
Fiesty gets Spayed this Friday.Then I will have a fully vetted and spayed kitty with a great personality that actually allows a harness to be fitted and go for a walk about around the yard.
Thanks again for the concern shown here at Pet Talk.

[Karen]

Where are you located? Just in case anybody nearby might see this ...

[Animal _lover]

Where are you located? Just in case anybody nearby might see this ...

On the coast of North Carolina,Beaufort area...
Poor Feisty is wandering the house looking for her soul mate BB tonight.She stops and smells where BB had been and cries out and gets no answer unfortunately.
When I was a kid we had lots of kittens around my parents house and I had forgotten how attached they become to one another.I had forgotten how sad it was for the last one of the litter to be alone in the house with none of her brothers or sisters around to be of comfort.Then they at least had their mom.Now I am doing my best to be there for the kitty with plenty of attention and petting to try to comfort her.
I took her outside today with the little kitty harness and she enjoyed that quite a bit.Quite the little hunter as she got a dragon fly and released it unharmed.Being that we just had a hurricane roll over us there are trees down and she enjoyed climbing and then scratching .
I think the wife understands it is best for the kitty to find a new safer domain.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Dirt11NC/BWFIESTYBIG.jpg

[sana]

That's so sad, poor little Feisty :( If I lived near you, I'd take her in a heart beat! :love: RIP BB and prayers for Feisty

[Animal _lover]

That's so sad, poor little Feisty :( If I lived near you, I'd take her in a heart beat! :love: RIP BB and prayers for Feisty

Well my deal is trying to get my wife to understand that it is best for the kitten to be separated from our situation and find a new home for the kitten.She is fighting me on the topic a bit.
I took the kitty outside on her leash ,with a 20' clothes line attached and she is meant to be outdoors.Climbed the tress vertically with no hesitation and came down fairly well.Chased the bugs and grass , checked out the plants and generally enjoyed herself.Then of course she comes back inside and starts looking for BB.Then for five minutes the crying happens.
Here are a few photos of how close the two were in life.
After the wife comes to her senses I will find Feisty a good home even if I have to drive her many states away.Sometimes we forget it is about the 4-legged creature not about us.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Dirt11NC/BBandFiesty-2.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Dirt11NC/BBFiesty-1.jpg

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Dirt11NC/FiestyandBB1.jpg

[luvofallhorses]

Is Feisty your tabby? I have two..if I had room for another cat, I would consider her. She is SUPER cute. :love: Hope you find a good home for her. :)

[sana]

Aww! Loved the photos! Lots of hugs and prayers for the little kitty :love: :love: I have room for many if you ask me :D But, due to certain reasons, :( :( I have room for very less :( :( I wish and pray that Feisty finds a good, loving and caring home in which she stays happy and does not cry :love:

[jcsites]

That is strange. What I know is that labs are not that easy to get angry. Poor kitten! My pitbull did that to a kitten too. Quite normal for the breed.

[moosmom]

I'm not going to say what I feel for fear of being bashed. My only advice is to get that poor other kitten in a SAFE home NOW!!!!!

[Animal _lover]

I'm not going to say what I feel for fear of being bashed. My only advice is to get that poor other kitten in a SAFE home NOW!!!!!

Why would you be bashed for stating your opinion that has been expressed already.I know what is the correct thing for the kitty's well being.I just have to convince the wife that it is the best thing to find a good home for the kitty.
At the moment the Feisty Kitty is never in the same space as the old lab Tia.It is finally turning cooler and Tia is hanging outside and enjoying herself.This is good then the kitten can still have the house to roam and continue her searching for her missing sister.I am sure she is grieving in her own way as well for the loss of her constant companion.When Tia is inside the kitten is locked into the downstairs area so no chance of a meeting occurring.
Our other lab Ginny loves the kitten.She will clean her,let her play with her tail,play the hide and seek routine under the beds and is protective of her outside as we do have the problem with the neighbors and feral cats.That is how we ended up with BB & Feisty to begin with actually.Ginny puts herself between the curious cats and Feisty and of course I am there with the leash that is attached to a kitty harness as well.Today she ,Feisty, sprinted up this Oak tree about 20' until I figured that was high enough and she backed down rather well.She will do well outside.
Tomorrow Feisty goes to the VET to get spayed first thing in the morning and then it will take a week or so of healing for the kitty I have been told and hopefully by then my wife will see the light about the safest thing for the kitty.
I will never understand why Tia did what she did to poor BB as BB had rubbed against Tia since day one of her arrival into our house.I guess there are things that we are never meant to understand,but just to learn from them.A senseless death of an innocent lovable kitten.
Here is Ginny, the younger lab and Feisty sitting in the sun at the front of the house.
I am not even letting Ginny nor Chrissy get that close to Feisty anymore either.
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Dirt11NC/GinnyFiesty.jpg

[luvofallhorses]

That is strange. What I know is that labs are not that easy to get angry. Poor kitten! My pitbull did that to a kitten too. Quite normal for the breed.

They are dogs and it's natural for them to have prey drive regardless of breed.

[buttercup132]

I saw it happen and smacked the lab rather hard as fast as I could get out of the chair and held the kitten in my arms until she had passed.
Are you kidding me...you got up and physically hit your dog for doing what it was bred to do?!?!
You do realize you have a breed that was BRED to HUNT small animals right?
Not to mention your dog is 12, dogs get agitated very easily when they are older and being 12 chances are her vision is not so great.


I was so mad I almost put the dog down,Again this is absolutely ridiculous, I understand that your upset the kitten got killed but the dog was doing what come natural to it. If you want a dog that gets along with other animals dont get a dog that was bred to hunt.
Thats like expecting a Border Collie not the herd, it's just absurd.


The dog has changed her life through her unwarranted action in the death of an innocent kittenHow so?


BUT IT KILLED A LIVING THING!!!!!Guess what 97% of dogs were bred for? Even pretty fancy poodles were bred for killing.

Heck dogs attack each other all the time, should they be put down?

That all being said you could have the kitten in your house still and just continue what your doing, ie: separating them.
People have dogs in the same house that would rip each others throats if possible but they are managed in a way where they never come in contact with each other.
Also does your dog have a crate?
I would highly suggest getting one if you dont so she can have a area that is her area to get away from the other animals.

[Karen]

Buttercup, Labs were not bred to kill small animals. They were bred to retrieve game, usually birds, that hunters had shot down. Poodles were also bred as retrievers.

Many terrier breeds were bred to be vermin control, so yes, terrier, dachshunds - THEY were bred to kill small animals. The retriever breeds were not.

[buttercup132]

I know they were bred for that but as others have stated the dog didnt attack the kitten it grabbed it. The dog still has prey drive to go after little animals.

[Animal _lover]

Buttercup....

I will try to understand your comments and as it was said sooner that Labs were never bred to kill anything period.They were actually first bred to retrieve fishing nets if I am not mistaken.Most of the labs I know are pets except for the few bird dogs for the few hunters I know here in the area.They are terrific with small children.
My first reactions at seeing such a horrific event that completely blind sided me was over done as I stated later on in this thread ,woulda coulda ,shoulda.I am an honest person and only human and reacted in a fit of anger,but I did not harm to the dog permanently and I did get my rational back fairly quickly.
If I ever thought that the kittens would be in any danger from any of my dogs,that all had been brought up with cats their whole lives with never a piece of fur out of place,the kittens would have been gone out the door to a rescue facility.
I have always had multiple dogs in the same house and never has one drawn blood from another ever.They have shown teeth,growled ,but never ever has one bitten the other.The only time the teeth showing or growling has occurred is when they have been given chew sticks and they get protective of their treat.Heck they all go around and clean out the others food bowls after the original dog has finished eating to make sure they do not miss a scrap of food.
I have come to the conclusion that Tia being old and grey just got irritated for some reason and reacted ( that I will not understand as the kitten had done the same thing a hundred times before) and her action would have been a minor incident on any animal larger than the poor 5 month old kitten.
My heart is hurt by the incident,but more importantly the little Feisty is slowly getting over missing her companion as I have introduced Feisty to a new environment,outside in the yard with trees and bugs and leaves.It seems to be helping as she started to play with the balls and toys we have put out through out the house which is a good sign.Today the kitty is getting spayed and then hopefully I will talk some sense into the wife and she will see it is best that Feisty go to a good home.Until that time she and Tia will never occupy the same space with out control on Feisty ( the kitty harness is a good tool ) as Tia is old and slow and Feisty is young and wicked fast.
In my home there are six different dog beds and each dog has one upstairs and one downstairs.Then there is the couch , the fake Persian rugs with padding,the beds etc..I have a fenced in area in back of the house for the buds to hang out in when needed then there are well over 100 acres of land they can go romp in as well.But I do not have a crate for the dogs to be put into when in the house nor in the car as they have their own mini van that they allow me to drive.Tia gets the front seat and Ginny and Chrissy take the back bench seat with the middle seats out and another carpet with padding in between the front and the back seats.Of course with a water bowl and treats.The air conditioning is on always in the summer and the dogs ride with me just about everywhere.Very seldom is there a time they are not cruising when I am cruising.
It was a tragic incident as to which I have never witnessed before in my many years of taking care of abandoned pets.Each of my animals ,all of them, either were a rescue or an abandoned animal.I seem to attract them for some reason.
I know there is a lesson to learn from this tragedy,but it seems to elude me at the moment as it still makes no real sense and most likely will never make any sense to me.I am just keeping the kitty and Tia separate from one another.When Tia is outside the kitty owns the house and when Tia is in the house the kitty owns the downstairs and Tia the upstairs.
Maybe Cesar Millan could explain it to me....

[luvofallhorses]

Well dogs are animals. Prey drive is normal regardless of breed. Not a big fan of Cesar Milan.

[Animal _lover]

Well dogs are animals. Prey drive is normal regardless of breed. Not a big fan of Cesar Milan.
You are correct they are animals.He , Cesar Millan was the first dog behaviorist I could think of at the time.I can take him or leave him.
I actually emailed someone at Best Friends Society to see what they think and I do believe their success with all kinds of animals is outstanding .I know the kitty needs a new home that is a given.
The kitty is back home and is a hissing grump which after a bit of web surfing found out that can occur after surgery.Tomorrow will be another day.In the mean time the dogs and I have the couch and the kitty and the wife have the bedroom.

[buttercup132]

.Most of the labs I know are pets except for the few bird dogs for the few hunters I know here in the area.Doesnt matter if they are pets its something that has been bred into them for years it's not going to go away just because they are a pet. It has to do with their lines and genetics.


I have always had multiple dogs in the same house and never has one drawn blood from another everIt was a example, not saying every dog does that. There are certain breeds though that are like that like the APBT, they have dog aggression bred into them and any one who owns one needs to be prepared for that by taking the appropriate actions to prevent that.
So anyone who has a Lab needs to know they have prey drive bred into them, they will chase and unless your lab has been taught to have a soft mouth chances are they will just grab and kill. And as the owner you need to be prepared that, that could happen at any point in the dogs life.


In my home there are six different dog beds and each dog has one upstairs and one downstairs.Then there is the couch , the fake Persian rugs with padding,the beds etc..I have a fenced in area in back of the house for the buds to hang out in when needed then there are well over 100 acres of land they can go romp in as well.How nice and how many beds you have does not mean anything to the dog. It needs somewhere that it can get away from everything, something that is theirs and secluded.
A crate is equal to a cave/den.

Cesar Millan would tell you the exact same thing, you have a dog with years of prey drive bred into it. It's pretty simple.
Go join a Lab forum, garuntee they will tell you the exact thing I just did.


Well dogs are animals. Prey drive is normal regardless of breed. Not a big fan of Cesar Milan.Agree 100%

[sasvermont]

Just wondering why you think you know all the answers?

[buttercup132]

Years of research, seeing people have to pay for these kind of mistakes, life experiences, working with animals for years, talking to behavourist and researching dog behavior.
I never said I know all the answers just that its absurd someone would contemplate putting a dog down for something it was born to do.

[Karen]

Years of research, seeing people have to pay for these kind of mistakes, life experiences, working with animals for years, talking to behavourist and researching dog behavior.
I never said I know all the answers just that its absurd someone would contemplate putting a dog down for something it was born to do.

That was just a momentary thought, if you had read through the rest of the thread before posting your thought, you would have known that.

Please keep in mind, some of us have been living life with dogs and knowing them and working with them longer than you have been alive. Do not assume the rest of us are ignorant, and reread your posts before you hit "submit" - as you often come across as quite abrasive, and this makes people less likely to pay attention to the content of your post.

[Animal _lover]

I appreciate the comments Karen and sasvermont and to all those who felt my heart talking thank you.
Feisty is much better today she is no longer the growling kitty,but back to the kitty that purrs.She is still in lockdown of sorts so I took this picture from outside looking in to her sanctum today.I meant to say thank you to POP NC for spaying Feisty.
http://pop-nc.com/

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w43/Dirt11NC/FIESTY.jpg