rain forest

[cturtle]

All the animals in the rain forest are going to be extinct, because if people arent chopping down trees so animals have no place to live, there killing the animals for stupid fur coats. The only reason people are buying the stupid coats is because it makes them look rich and fancy. Nobody ever took into account that the animals are slaughtered and tortured so some rich people could look fancy. This really really pisses me off:mad:. I mean it's bad enough that people eat the animals but there wearing the fur of a dead animal! ~alli~ p.s. britt im becoming a full vegitarian:) I really feel bad for the animals I mean humans are animals and so if humans eat meat then it's an act of cannibalism!

[Andie]

Originally posted by cturtle
p.s. britt im becoming a full vegitarian:) I really feel bad for the animals I mean humans are animals and so if humans eat meat then it's an act of cannibalism!

Not trying to disrespect you, your opinions, or your veganism (is that even a word?) but I just wanted to point out that cannibalism is the eating of your own species. Otherwise it's just being a carnivore.

[cturtle]

yes but humans are animals and animals are animals (obviously) and so its like eating your own kind

[cturtle]

If you eat an animal, it's like eating yourself. If you wear fur it's like your wearing your own skin. If you eat meat it's like eating your soul and your inner body. Only when the last tree is dead, the last river is dammed and the last field is paved over will we realize we can't eat money. The animals are getting killed and no one gives a toot and then soon the all the rivers will be polluted so much we won't have drinking water and then the animals will drink from the water and die. Then when people can't eat meat (who would it's canabalism) and no vegitation is left our spiecies will die out just like the rest. Don't kill animals and please don't eat dead processed meat it's canabalism!

[Andie]

Originally posted by cturtle
yes but humans are animals and animals are animals (obviously) and so its like eating your own kind

Not to be mean or anything but why is only bad that humans eat meat. No one thinks anything of a wolf eating, let's say, a rabbit. The wolf is an animal right? The rabbit is an animal right?
No one thinks that the wolf is a cannibal, they just say that's nature and moves on. So basicly going on what you're saying, it's ok for wild animals to do what comes naturally but for a human to do the same is wrong. It says on your profile that you have cats, have you ever looked at what's in cat food. Is it cannibalistic for your cat to eat tuna or chicken in its cat food?

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by cturtle
All the animals in the rain forest are going to be extinct, because if people arent chopping down trees so animals have no place to live, there killing the animals for stupid fur coats. The only reason people are buying the stupid coats is because it makes them look rich and fancy. Nobody ever took into account that the animals are slaughtered and tortured so some rich people could look fancy. This really really pisses me off:mad:. I mean it's bad enough that people eat the animals but there wearing the fur of a dead animal! ~alli~ p.s. britt im becoming a full vegitarian:) I really feel bad for the animals I mean humans are animals and so if humans eat meat then it's an act of cannibalism!

I agree that it is wrong to destroy the rainforests and to kill animals for their coats. That is ABSOLUTELY wrong, and needs to be stopped..............However, there is absolutely NOTHING wrong about eating meat. How can you call eating meat cannibalism??? We are not eating our own species. Ok, we may be animals, but we are NOT the same. Lions don't eat lions but they eat other animals, so let's call them cannibals as well. :rolleyes: Why do you feed your cats meat? Cat food is made out of other animals. Why isn't it cannibalism for them to eat animals? And let me tell you one thing, not a single specie that is eaten by human being is near extinction, or even close to being endangered. We humans eat cows, lambs, goats, chicken, fish, and some other animals. None of these animals is near extinction. In fact, the whole world is full of them. The animals that are endangered are because of other reasons, and those reasons need to be stopped. If you choose to be vegetarian, that's your choice, but you can't go around trying to make other people vegetarian because it won't work. No matter what you do, people aren't going to stop eating meat. Just like other animals eat meat, so do we. Animal protein is an important part of a human's diet, and though too much is not good, it is important to eat meat in limited quantities. I once considered to become a vegetarian but my doctor told me not to because he said in my growing age, up to the age of 18-20, animal protein is important in limited quantities. I don't mean to be rude or anything, but if animals can eat animals, so can we. It might be part of their nature but its part of our nature too. Human beings have been eating meat since the first man, just as cats and dogs have. There is nothing anyone can do to stop this, and there is no reason to stop it either. :rolleyes: I am not a meat lover. I eat meat like 1-2 times a week and I like veggies better, but I do not find anything wrong with eating meat. Our pets eat it too. :rolleyes:

[RockyRoad]

Hey I think everyone on Pet Talk disagrees with people that want to tear down rainforests, but then again I cannot speak fo everyone. My opinion on the subject is that these people might want to look "rich and fancy", but it is more logical to assume that they need more land space, not that I approve. Do not automatically take offence of anyone who wears fur. We all do you know. I mean wool is sheep and there are lots of different things we wear everyday that are fur. Sure there are other fabrics that are not made of animals, but even if you are a vegiterian or do not like wearing animal fur, you have to admit even you have worn fur once in your life. Anyhoot, I noticed you using the word stupid a lot, Alli. I got a little worried there. Be careful what you post, anyone in the world can be reading these forums.

As for the vegiterian thing, yeah, I'm a vegiterian. But it is not exactly "wrong" to eat an animal. I mean if you walked up to a cat and just gobbled it up...well...nobody has the sense to do that. But just as Andie said animals eat other animals all the time to survive. If you do not get the right amount of protein you can die. I never much cared for meat anyway so for me it was not such a big loss. Bears and other such animals eat us, so we are just keeping our end of the food chain. Even though I feel that animals and people should not eat any animals and people, everyone is intitled to their own opinion. I agree halfway with everyone because I believe everyone has a good veiws, well, most of the time. Thanks. :)
~PS~ I cannot call it cannibalism either, there is absoloutely nothing wrong with eating meat, like Popcornbird said.

[Desert Arabian]

OMG! cturtle- I am right with you. I am a member of PETA!!! People Eating Tasty Animals!! WoW! What a small world.

In fact, yesterday I got me my christmas goose!


I do believe is some ways that the destruction of the rainforest is wrong, it is sad to think about all the animals. But- it is happening here in the USA too. In my state, Wisconsin, there was a beautiful forest rich and abundant in rare and non-rare species. Well, that is no longer a forest- it is a subdivison full of million dollar homes.


p.s. taking wool from a sheep is HARMLESS! They sheer (shave) it off. The sheep is never harmed by this process.

[RockyRoad]

And it does not exactly harm a cow to give milk or a chicken to lay eggs(well maybe..but..). Just wanted to add that in because some things you eat that come from animals were not actually the animals, just the things they make.

[All Creatures Great And Small]

veg·e·tar·i·an n (plural veg·e·tar·i·ans) somebody not eating meat or fish: somebody who does not eat meat or fish but instead eats vegetables, fruits, grains, seeds, and sometimes eggs and dairy products

veg·an (plural veg·ans) n person who never eats animal products: somebody who does not eat animal products for moral, social, or religious motives.

o·vo·lac·to·veg·e·tar·i·an (plural o·vo·lac·to·veg·e·tar·i·ans) n vegetarian eating eggs and dairy products: a vegetarian who eats eggs and dairy products, but no products that involve the killing of animals. See also vegan n.

cturtle, I thought this would help you when referring to your personal dietary habits - everybody can make their own personal choices; that's what I love about America. I just can't imagine a young person wanting to go without eating ice cream and pizza (unless it's a cheese-less pizza - YUK!) If you're really going to get into the vegan lifestyle, I would recommend the study of proteins from plant sources, because at your age, you really need a lot of protein for the development of your mind and body. Please talk to your pediatrician about your dietary choice. Are your parents aware of your decision not to eat animal products?

I was not aware that the animals used in the making of fur coats were native to the rainforest. Mink, nutria, beaver, sable, fox etc. - I thought they were raised on ranches. I don't wear fur because it's not really in style anymore, and on a person my size and height it makes me look like a woolly mammoth.;) As far as meat - I LOVE IT!! And since I'm from Wisconsin, gotta have the cheese - can't live without cheese! Everytime I drive by a field with cows in it (every couple miles around here), I thank them for their delicious milk, butter, ice cream, cheese, sour cream, yogurt, tenderloins...... - mmmmmm, I gotta go eat lunch:D

[COCatMama]

I have been a vegetarian for approx 12 years. I realized one day when I was a teenager that eating meat was completely hypocritical for me to do, since I love all animals *and not as food*. Also, *don't laugh* I was watching an ep of MacGyver and an elephant or rhino was poached for it's horns which upset me, but when I thought about it there was no difference between killing a cow or chicken or pig to eat it. And contrary to what some people think a Vegetarian does NOT eat chicken and FISH!!

I am not a vegan tho, and I have caught some flak for that. I consume dairy products and eggs, I love cheese and stuff...
I strongly disagree with hunting ESPECIALLY with rifles and things, I think that if you hunt animals you should have to fashion your own weapon like a bow, that way you actually have to stalk the animal and he/she can easily escape. Anyways, be careful to get enough B VITAMINS and PROTEIN and if you are female you need to eat some iron-rich foods like enriched pasta with tomato sauce. You have to start checking labels for animal products like RENNET or BEEF FAT....alot of commercial products have these things in them. I could go on for pages so if you want to talk more about becoming a *healthy* vegetarian please email me [email protected]

Above all else, respect everyone's right to choose what to eat for themselves, I do not hassle my friends for eating meat and *I expect the same respect from them*.

[Desert Arabian]

I'd hate to tell ya, but just because you shoot at animals with a rifle or a shotgun, doesn't mean you harvest an animal everytime you shoot (if that were true every deer/duck/squrriel, etc would be extinct). Guns were fashioned by people,like bows, for the same reasons bows were made. Just because a bow doesn't go "bang", and use bullets- it is still as dangerous and capeable of killing animals.

[Andie]

Originally posted by Lalania
an elephant or rhino was poached for it's horns which upset me, but when I thought about it there was no difference between killing a cow or chicken or pig to eat it.

Above all else, respect everyone's right to choose what to eat for themselves, I do not hassle my friends for eating meat and *I expect the same respect from them*.


There is a difference between poaching a Rhino for its horn and killing a cow/chicken/pig for food. Usually they use all they can of an animal when they are processing it but when you poach rhino horns they cut the horn off and leave it for the buzzards. That is a huge difference!


I don' t think anyone was hassling anyone else, we were stating our opinions. We weren't putting anyone down.

[COCatMama]

I meant to me killing an animal for it's horns or for it's meat is the same for me...hard to explain.

Also, I was saying that respect thing for cturtle because if she/he becomes a veggie she/he will get lots of flak for it. Best to treat others the way you would like to be treated, right? Also, if people refuse to stop hassling you about it....kick em to the curb! :)

I am just trying to give cturtle some advice eh? cause I've been there and still am :)

Also, not many people MAKE their own guns eh? not many can make a bow either, I know a few who can.

[Desert Arabian]

Yea, your right- guns fall from the sky! They are made by.......people! How do you think guns got on this planet??

You know what... I think if you want to drive you have to make your own car out of bamboo and coconuts- like on Gilligan's Island. :D

[Cookiebaker]

Originally posted by YellowLabLover
You know what... I think if you want to drive you have to make your own car out of bamboo and coconuts- like on Gilligan's Island. :D

:D A rather funny picture comes to mind! :D

[mugsy]

I think that canabalism ( hey I never said I could spell) that is the incorrect term here. That's when you eat the flesh of your own species.

Now, as far as poaching is concerned, there is a HUGE difference between killing an animal for only its horn that killing an animal to eat it. Look at the Native Americans that lived on the plains. They deeply respected the buffalo as the giver of their life and actually apologized to the animal for killing it, however, they used all parts of the buffalo....hides for making clothes and their homes, meat for eating (and that includes organ meats also), bone for making weapons and other things....in other words, they used every part of the animal. I am disgusted by how commercial farms treat the animals and how they kill them, but, at least most parts are used, which is a totally different ball game then killing the animal, cutting off its horn and then leaving the rest to rot...the only thing that's good for is the almighty dollar.

I respect vegans and vegetarians and don't bug them about their choice, but I certainly don't want to be looked down upon for making the choice to eat meat. Keep in mind that humans were built to be OMNIVORES, not herbivores or carnivores.

[COCatMama]

mugsy i agree with you, but, the animal is still being killed and for me, that is wrong.
back in the old days things were alot different eh? I approve of farms with free-range animals that do not know pain and fear until the last second, rather than some horrible factory scenario.

[Kater]

With all due respect....I think there is no solid evidence suggesting humans are meant to be omnivores. What about the fact that humans can survive & thrive on a vegan diet? I think that makes eating meat and animal products wrong. But then again this is coming from a vegan. But please understand I don't mean to upset anyone or disrespect their life chocies.

[COCatMama]

that's cool :) I respect your self-discipline :)

[COCatMama]

yellowlab person the people that *use* guns do not generally *make* them!

[Desert Arabian]

and the people who *drive* the cars to the store don't generally *make* them, and the people who *shop at the store* don't generally *make* the store, and the people who *put food in the refrigerator* don't generally *make* the refrigerator..... see where I'm going with this? If you think people should hand-make what they need to use to get the food of their choice, then you better get going on that bamboo and coconut car so you can get to the store and buy some vegetables......or do you have a big old garden out back where you get your dinner?

[COCatMama]

imo you are blowing this waaayyyyyyy out of proportion. I said what i did because i believe hunting with a handmade bow is more equal than hunting with a high powered gadget with a scope and you can be half a km from the animal....bow hunting takes some skill.
that is all....i am in no state of mind tonight to get into some kind of flame war here...i was only trying to help the person who originally created this thread, not piss people off, okay?

[Soledad]

I think it's great that the person starting this thread wants to be a vegetarian, but they are obviously very young and haven't thought things through entirely. By all means, go veg. I've done it for a couple of years, and made the decision to stop. But realise that there are many reasons the rainforests are being cut down. Reasons like development, corporate pressure, poverty, timber demand, grazing land, etc. I know you're probably quite young, and that this is a bit of an ask, but try to get a more whollistic approach to something instead of getting so militant about it you don't even research the details. Also, a vegetarian wearing leather shoes is one of the most ridiculous sights ever.

[Desert Arabian]

I approve of farms with free-range animals that do not know pain and fear until the last second,

:confused: I thought you didn't approve of animal deaths at all -
an animal in the woods doesn't know pain and fear until the last second either, if the hunter is very skilled (like me) -


I think that if you hunt animals you should have to fashion your own weapon like a bow, that way you actually have to stalk the animal and he/she can easily escape.

Right, and I think that if you eat vegetables you should have to fashion your own vegetable patch, that way you actually have to stalk the vegetables and they could easily die before harvest.


hunting with a handmade bow is more equal than hunting with a high powered gadget with a scope and you can be half a km from the animal

You obviously know as much about rifle hunting as I do about vegetarianism - to successfully shoot an animal from a half a km away would take some amazing skills.


I do not hassle my friends for eating meat

but I hassle people I don't know for hunting and eating meat.
At least I haven't told anyone on here not to eat vegetables or be a vege-whatever. I guess carnivores are a little more tolerant - don't throw flames and you won't get them back.....

[Desert Arabian]

Also, a vegetarian wearing leather shoes is one of the most ridiculous sights ever.

I was going to bring that one up, but I didn't want to ruffle the "vegetables" feathers........

[popcornbird]

Originally posted by Soledad
Also, a vegetarian wearing leather shoes is one of the most ridiculous sights ever.

OMG! LOL! That is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO true! And why to vegetarians go around carrying leather purses and wallets, and drive cars with leather seats, and have leather sofa's in their homes? Ridiculous! Why do vegetarians wear pearl jewelery? They come from animals too. God created us humans as omnivors and saying that there is nothing to prove that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Go look at the billions of people out their in the entire world. Almost all of them eat meat AND veggies. That's proof right there. An animal that eats only meat (lion) ONLY eats meat. An animal that eats only veggies (bunnies) ONLY eats veggies. AND AN ANIMAL THAT EATS BOTH MEAT AND VEGGIES (MOST of the humans around the world) are called omnivorous, and THAT'S what we humans are. Any proof that humans are not omnivors? Again, none of you answered my question.................Why do you feed your dogs and cats meat? If they have the right to eat meat, so do we. Killing animals for food is not cruelty. We are just doing our job as part of the food chain. Animals eat us too. Animals eat animals too. There is nothing wrong with it. As for the term cannibalism, I think vagetarians "eating" people who eat meat because they eat meat, is a form of cannibalism (not physically). Again, I have full respects for anyone who chooses to be a vegetarian, but we, the majority of mankind, that eat meat, DESERVE the same respect. If God didn't forbid us from eating meat, who is anyone else to do so? There is absolutely nothing wrong with eating meat, whether anyone likes that fact or not.

[Uabassoon]

I've been a vegetarian for a few years now. And it's not because I think it's wrong to eat animals, I just think the way the commercial systems runs is wrong. I don't agree with the treatment of the animals. At my house I only buy free range and organic dairy and eggs because while I agree it doesn't hurt a cow to milk it, large dairies do abuse their cows. So I prefer to buy from smaller companies. I grew up as a farm kid, we had our vegetable garden would eat chickens and lambs and goats that came from our farm. And I don't see a problem with it because the animals are treated well, they are given a good life. But I think it's natural to eat meat, it's just something that I choose not to do for my own reasons.

[Desert Arabian]

All I have to say (to popcornbird) is AMEN AMEN!!

[Soledad]

I agree with Uabasson. My main concern is the humane treatment and slaughtering of animals. There's no way everyone in the world will become a vegetarian, so the most effective fight is the one against huge corporate farms that mistreat their animals.

[wolf_Q]

Huh, interesting discussion we have going here. I eat meat. But of course, I grew up in a family that has always eaten meat, so it would be weird not to. My family also hunts deer and elk. I don't like hunting. I guess I just don't get (and never will) the "thrill" of chasing down some woodland creature and puting a bullet through it. But at least if my dad or brother kills a deer, we find that deer, and we eat every bit of it. I have a friend who has a family of "trophy hunters." With the dad and all her brothers, I'm sure they kill at least 5 deer/elk each year, along with a few rare critters like mountain goats, moose, bear, etc. They take the meat of the deer and elk home, but somehow I have never seen them eat deer/elk meat in my life. They have taxidermy ALL over, and I can't stand it....I *hate* taxidermy. I can't stand fur coats either. Ok so there's my views on hunting.

I respect those who are vegetarians/vegans, I just don't think I have that much will-power. I think it's true to say that God made it possible for man to eat animals, but I really think it's gone a bit too far now. The average person eats waaay too much meat in my opinion (I'm not saying this includes every individual person here). And it would definitely be better if the animals used for human purposes would be humanely treated. Believe it or not, there are still a few places that let cows graze openly in the fields all of their lives (there's plenty here in Utah) but I know that's not how it happens with all of them.


Right, and I think that if you eat vegetables you should have to fashion your own vegetable patch, that way you actually have to stalk the vegetables and they could easily die before harvest.

Ok we're getting a bit ridiculous on this "hand-made" topic here guys.....

And as far as the original topic of "rain forests" I also do not like the destruction that is happening either. It's happening everywhere though. They build houses/etc. practically any place...we have them clear up on the mountains here all over. They just built a stupid ugly golf course right up on the side of a mountain. There's no place left for the wild animals.

And I agree, that cannibalism is eating your own kind, not eating meat in general.

[Kater]

Maybe I am carrying this too far but this is a topic very near and dear to my heart. The last thing I am trying to do is offend anyone but I would like my opinion posted so I can defend my choice. I think that perhaps some people might not know the facts about humans - whether we are made omnivore or herbivore. So in response to popocornbird's rejection of my omnivore argument....


God created us humans as omnivors and saying that there is nothing to prove that is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Go look at the billions of people out their in the entire world. Almost all of them eat meat AND veggies. That's proof right there. An animal that eats only meat (lion) ONLY eats meat. An animal that eats only veggies (bunnies) ONLY eats veggies. AND AN ANIMAL THAT EATS BOTH MEAT AND VEGGIES (MOST of the humans around the world) are called omnivorous, and THAT'S what we humans are. Any proof that humans are not omnivors? Again, none of you answered my question.................Why do you feed your dogs and cats meat? If they have the right to eat meat, so do we. Killing animals for food is not cruelty. We are just doing our job as part of the food chain. Animals eat us too. Animals eat animals too.
....I'd like to respond with some of Peta's well researched arguments. (These Q&A come from http://www.askcarla.com and I do not claim writing them myself!)

Animals kill other animals for food, so why shouldn’t we?

Most of the animals who kill for food could not survive if they didn’t. That is not the case for us. We are better off not eating meat. Many other animals are vegetarians, including some of our closest primate relatives. Why don’t we look to them as our example instead of to carnivores?

Aren’t humans natural carnivores?

While humans have eaten meat throughout history, there is significant evidence that we are better suited to a vegetarian diet. Carnivorous animals have long, curved fangs, claws, and a short digestive tract. Humans have flat, flexible nails, and our so-called "canine" teeth are minuscule compared to carnivores’. Human teeth are better suited to biting into vegetables, fruits, and grains than tearing through tough hides.

In addition, the health problems associated with meat consumption—a leading contributor to heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes, and obesity—should be an indication that we aren’t "meant" to eat meat. In addition, humans are capable of making ethical decisions. We can get all the nutrients we need from plant sources, which means that billions of animals are unnecessarily slaughtered every year at the expense of our health and the environment.

If animals aren't meant to be eaten, why are they made of meat?

Perhaps a more appropriate question would be: If humans have hearts and brains, why don't we use them? Because if we did, we would see that animals aren't so very different from us. They clearly show affection, fear, joy, the desire to live, and more. They aren't emotion-less machines whose lives are inconvenient stages on the way to our dinner table. They are living, breathing, feeling beings who want to lead their own lives just as people do. Once we recognize this, then it's easy to turn to a diet free of decaying bits of corpses.

It's also just plain old good sense to reject a cholesterol-laden diet linked to heart disease, stroke, and many cancers and switch to healthier, delicious veggies, grains, fruits, and legumes.

Isn’t eating meat natural? It’s been going on for thousands of years. Aren’t our bodies designed for it

Actually, human bodies are better suited to a vegetarian diet. Carnivorous animals have long, curved fangs, claws, and a short digestive tract. Humans have flat, flexible nails, and our so-called "canine" teeth are minuscule compared to those of carnivores or even compared to vegetarian primates like gorillas and orangutans. Our tiny canine teeth are better suited to biting into fruits than tearing through tough hides. We have flat molars and a long digestive tract suited to a diet of vegetables, fruits, and grain. Eating meat is hazardous to our health; it contributes to heart disease, cancer, and many other health problems.

People have always eaten animal products. Why should we stop now?

Never in human history have people eaten as many animal products as we do now. Today, rich and poor can afford to eat these products, largely as a result of the cost-cutting methods used to raise "food" animals. Present-day factory farms inflict massive, large-scale suffering of a magnitude never before seen in agricultural practices. In addition, the human population is larger today than ever before. Billions of people eating meat means that billions of tons of water and grain are being diverted from the world’s poor people and fed to the livestock of the rich; the resultant billions of pounds of manure are destroying our topsoil, drinking water, and ozone layer. In addition, today we not only have medical evidence of the health benefits of a plant-based diet, we also have many easily accessible products, such as tofu, tempeh, nondairy milk, yogurt, cheese, and ice cream, and many other healthful and delicious products that make the switch to a vegan diet easy and delicious.

Can I get enough protein as a vegan?

A wealth of evidence shows that vegans need not worry about getting enough protein; if you eat a reasonably varied diet and sufficient calories, you will undoubtedly get enough protein. The average person who eats animal products eats about double the protein that his or her body needs, and there is medical evidence to show that eating too much protein can lead to serious health problems. In addition, unlike animal products, vegan foods have absolutely no cholesterol and hardly any saturated fat.

Don’t humans have to eat meat to stay healthy?

Both the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the American Dietetic Association have endorsed vegetarian diets. Studies have shown that vegetarians have stronger immune systems than meat-eaters and that meat-eaters are almost twice as likely to die of heart disease, 60 percent more likely to die of cancer, and 30 percent more likely to die of other diseases. Consumption of meat and dairy products has been conclusively linked with diabetes, arthritis, osteoporosis, clogged arteries, obesity, asthma, and impotence.


I will stop here because I think you get the idea. If anyone wants any more information about becoming vegan please feel free to PM me. I'm so glad we have these forums where we can express our opinions, it is such a fundamental need! :D :D :D :D

Oh and also in terms of companion animals -- they too can be vegetarian however cats need special supplements because they are fundamentally important to their functioning (unlike humans which NEED no meat.) Here is the explanation Peta gives:

Is it safe to feed my dog or cat a vegetarian diet?

It’s likely that your cat or dog will thrive on a vegetarian diet. Studies have shown that ailments associated with meat consumption in humans, such as allergies, cancer, and arthritis, also affect our companion animals. In addition to pesticides, hormones, and antibiotics, commercial pet foods can be composed of parts of animals deemed unfit for human consumption, such as ground-up feathers and diseased flesh.

Do be especially cautious when making the transition to a vegetarian diet for your cat as cats have very specific nutritional requirements. Vitamin A, taurine, and arachidonic acid are essential and can be provided with supplements such as VegeCat by Harbingers of a New Age. For optimal health, many people also choose to supplement their cats’ diets with fresh, wholesome grains, proteins, vegetables, and essential fatty acids such as those found in flaxseed oil.

Unless they eat raw meat, some dogs require supplemental taurine and L-carnitine (available in health food stores). These amino acids can prevent dilated cardiomyopathy in breeds that are prone to the disease, such as Doberman pinschers, boxers, cocker spaniels, Dalmatians, and many large breeds.

For a smooth transition, start by mixing vegetarian food (several quality brands are available, or follow recipes found in Vegetarian Dogs by Verona re-Bow or Vegetarian Cats and Dogs by James Peden) with the meat-based food. Gradually increase the vegetarian portion and decrease the meat-based diet over one to two weeks. Most dogs’ and cats’ health improves on a vegetarian diet, but be sure to monitor your animal closely to be absolutely sure that the new diet is agreeable. If not, you may need to switch to a different brand, try supplementing commercial food with fresh whole or raw foods, or go back to the meat-based food.

[mugsy]

Kater,

I am a certified science teacher and have taken many geology/anthropology classes in college and the human tooth set up is for that of an omnivore and that's how paleontologists classify a fossil as carnivore, herbivore, or omnivore. I would never second guess your choice of being vegan or vegetarian, but those are the facts. I would also never attempt to convert my dog to a vegetarian diet since dogs ARE carnivores, but, to each his/her own. If humans were meant to be herbivores, our stomaches would be constructed differently...we would have more of a cow's or a deer's stomach (which, personally, I'm glad I don't have!lol), which would allow for the grinding up of the cellulose in plants.

I do agree that humans probably have too much meat in their diets, and should probably cut back to remain healthy.

Oh yes, and as for our nearest evolutionary cousins, the apes, they ARE omnivorious. They eat insects A LOT and insects are definitely not plants...yummy!! NOT!!! lol

But, like I said, I respect your choice and hope that you respect mine. I'm still wondering why none of our vegans have been interested in my nephew's vegan "veggie crackers." ;)

[Andie]

I'm not gonna argue with anything said but I am going to explain myself. I was raised on a meat and potatoes type of diet. Examples: Two of my dad's aunts raised beef cows, so you can guess what I grew up eating. Living on the Mississippi River all of your life you learn to love (cat)fish. (Although I have lost my taste for fish long ago) Fried Chicken is a given when your country.

So meat eating wasn't really a big deal. It is more or less programmed into generations upon generations.

Now I don't disagree with vegitarianism but I do disagree with vegitarians who push their ways down my throat. My best friend of 15 yrs (my oldest friend) is a vegitarian and we get along just fine. Why? I respect her right to choose what she wants to be her diet and she does the same for me. So we can just hang out, have a veggie burger (our compromise), and be the goofballs that we are. :p Maybe that's what is needed on this thread, respect for others choices.

Lalania: I'm sorry I misunderstood what you were saying earlier about the hassling thing. I understand now.

[ramanth]

Originally posted by Kater
With all due respect....I think there is no solid evidence suggesting humans are meant to be omnivores. What about the fact that humans can survive & thrive on a vegan diet? I think that makes eating meat and animal products wrong. But then again this is coming from a vegan. But please understand I don't mean to upset anyone or disrespect their live chocies.

Kater, I think what Mugsy was saying is that the human body is made to be omnivorous, meaning we can eat and digest both meats or veggies. But the choice is still there whether you want to eat one or the other because you have the option to get your protein or vitamins elsewhere.

In the case of some animals that need just meat (ie wolves) or just veggies (ie rabbits) to survive and are not omnivores.


If you chose not to eat meat, that is your choice and I respect you for that. I, however do eat meat, and only ask for the same respect in return.

Also, my parents hunt. We use everything we can from the deer. The meat is actually better for you than beef. (less fat) I'd rather eat them then hit them with my car and see them suffer.

Most creatures like deer have lost their natural predators. Without hunters their numbers will grow and many of them die in the winter from car collisions or starvation.

[popcornbird]

Kater, sorry, but I do not agree. Our teeth and bodies are built to consume both meat and veggies safely. As for the health thing, too much meat is bad, but meat in limites quantities isn't and can actually be good for you. As I previously said, my doctor advised me not to become vegetarian because he said meat is important in my age. Of course its a personal choice, but there are far more proofs that humans are omnivorous, than not omnivorous. We deserve the same respect as vegetarians. Its our choice and we were made to eat both. If we weren't, our bodies wouldn't accept meat, and our teeth can very well chew meat. If they couldn't, I don't think any person would be eating meat. LOL! I personally think PETA is very extreme and I have never agreed with any one of their articles that I have read.

[Soledad]

Okay. I don't think that anyone besides the original poster (who was just young and sort of uninformed) is attacking meat eaters. However, some meat-eaters are getting overly defensive.

We will all choose to eat/consume whatever we feel right about. We all have the capability to reason out why or why not we choose to consume animals, and we all have valid reasons for choosing those actions.

That said, I think PETA is a well-intentioned but misguided organisation. If you've joined PETA, I want you to answer something: Do you believe that animals have equal rights to human beings?

Think carefully about this one. Realise that equality is a very big thing. Animal welfare is a totally different concept from animal equality.

PETA is like any organisation, their going to give you information that benefits THEMSELVES. Just like I would not take information on beef's nutritious qualities from the Beef Farming Industry, I would not take information on vegetarianism/veganism from a biased organisation like PETA.

[Kater]

Mugsy! I admire teachers so much! Mucho props! Many have been instrumental in important changes in my life and I’m sure you are valuable in those same ways to your students! However, I can’t drop this topic. I really can’t. So let me just respond to the responses. But please please understand I mean no disrespect, I just enjoy a little friendly and educational banter!

I am currently in college and enrolled in a Geology class. (yay for University of Wisconsin-Madison!) I feel that paleontology is a fairly new science and a constantly changing one. Evolution is partially based on the fossil record and we all know it is incredibly incomplete and just a random sampling of earth’s story (I prefer the word story to HIStory.) I also feel that classification of species and our interpretation of their evolution is quite subjective in nature. It is based on paleontology!

The points I’d like reemphasize are:
A) Humans do not need meat to survive; they can survive & thrive without it.
B) Compared to carnivores and (true) omnivores we are poorly equipped for taking down prey! Upright, hairless, belly exposed --- we are physically helpless in comparison! But I suppose someone would argue that we have an advantage over other creatures because of our capacity for learning and intelligence. I don’t know if I buy that though..…..
C) As Peta put it “Humans have flat, flexible nails, and our so-called "canine" teeth are minuscule compared to carnivores’. Human teeth are better suited to biting into vegetables, fruits, and grains than tearing through tough hides.”

And for those who don’t buy my revised classification system idea:
I don’t doubt we can digest and utilize nutrients from vegetables as well as meat. Obviously we’ve got some evidence proving we can. But human society does not just accept following ones biological impulses. We have rules in place that make us “civilized” and these rules often directly contradict biology impulses – an example being the concept of monogamy. (I do understand & respect that monogamy isn’t “the law” everywhere and in every belief system, it is just one example and no one example I could choose will apply to absolutely everyone.)
Why else do we differ from other creatures that more quickly obey their biological impulses? Well, we unlike our close primate relatives and other creatures live fairly sedentary lifestyles. I can understand how a more primitive human, living before society grew food and set up permanent housing needed dense and high energy food to keep him going. But now we have extensive knowledge of health as well as the resources to provide a vegan diet to our world’s population, even as the world population continues to increase. When will we recognize that cutting out the animal product “cholesterol-laden diet linked to heart disease, stroke, and many cancers” is a step we should all take towards better health? We claim that meat is good in moderation. I don’t know many people who eat meat/cheese/eggs in moderation! Take a look at this: http://www.kde.state.ky.us/odss/nutrition/pyramid/actpyra.gif
Sorry that this is pretty blurry, maybe someone could help me find a better copy of it? And yeah, it’s true that this only applies to the US, I don’t have too much exposure to other countries eating habits. But I do know that since China has gotten more control on feeding its population they have moved towards a diet more similar to the West with more and more meat in their everyday food. (I’m very very interested in East Asian studies, BTW, if anyone speaks Mandarin! I do too!)
But I mean it’s like we have diet information but no one has the will power to eat healthy? Or very few people? Vegan diets can be just as tasty and in my opinion better! I just wish more people would give it a chance!

So I just don’t see what animal products offer that we can’t get from a vegan diet minus the cholesterol!

In reponse to....

If you've joined PETA, I want you to answer something: Do you believe that animals have equal rights to human beings?

I look forward to the day when society recognizes animals’ rights fully just as over time we’ve recognized that rights transcend ethnic/racial backgrounds as well as the genders/sexual orientations. Because I cannot help but believe “Animals are living, breathing, feeling beings who want to lead their own lives just as people do.” It almost haunts me. But someday people will finally understand what Gandhi meant what he meant when he said, “The morality of a nation can be judged by the way society treats its animals.”

Peta may be on the extreme end but I don’t think that means their scientific information is to be disregarded. They do use the information that benefits them. But that’s how scientists form hypothesis (the evidence first and the hypothesis made to fit that evidence) and how people get jobs and its just so common I don’t see what you could have against it. And it’s your job as an individual to try and hear all sides of something and then form an opinion. In my case it’s not like I’m sitting here brainwashed by what Peta says, I take it with a grain of salt. I know Peta has a bad reputation with many many people and frankly I think people are just scared of it. Who wants to hear what they don’t want to hear?

And yes obviously this thread has digressed from where it started but that is how conversation and debate unfold…….No?

But Mugsy I haven’t even heard about your nephew’s veggie crackers? What’s the story behind that?

Hmm, I tire myself when I think too hard. ;) I think I’ll give my brain a rest before my next class.

[cturtle]

ok so it aint canabilism but its still mean!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :confused: :confused: :confused: :mad: :mad: :mad: wouldnt you agree?

[RockyRoad]

I am a vegan as well, but do not critisize my fellow human beings of being cannibals, well, unless they are. I do not critisize people who eat or do not eat meat or dairy products, it is their decision and I respect that. My parents, grandparents, and sister never leave me alone. They are constantly throwing meat on my plate and laughing and all other related things. It just annoys me. I respect them and do not say a thing about them eating meat. But when you go to junior high it is a little odd to be a vegiterian so I am critisized there as well. It is so annoying. In my opinion that is just like prejudice because people should respect who they are and not pick out what they do not like and critisize them for it. It goes back to the days of Hitler how people hated people of the Jewish faith. Well my best friend is jewish and I am catholic and I do not critisize her nor does she critisize me. Well if my family does not understand what those poor people went through because people would not respect their beliefs then I am forced to call upon them as prejudice. Thank you.

PS-Teachers rock, Mugsy.

[cturtle]

Sorry Ihaven't been on in a day and I'm kinda far behind.:p

[cturtle]

Yeah especially science teachers. They are so cool! (and so is science).

[RockyRoad]

Originally posted by cturtle
ok so it aint canabilism but its still mean!!!!!!:mad: :mad: :mad: :confused: :confused: :confused: :mad: :mad: :mad: wouldnt you agree?

Ummm, I do not understand why you think it is mean to eat meat Alli, unless you are talking about the rainforests being torn down. It is perfectly fine. Why just three months ago I was not a vegiterian, and I still loved animals as much as I do now. So I guess three months ago I was mean. Okay. :confused:

[RockyRoad]

Originally posted by cturtle
Yeah especially science teachers. They are so cool! (and so is science).

Speak for yourself you're not failing science lol.

[cturtle]

I was talking about the rain forest.

[mugsy]

So do you need help with science??? Sheesh all you had to do was ask! hehehe

[Soledad]

Kater -

You are obviously a smart girl who has thought about this issue. I have too. I was a vegetarian for several years, and vegan for some time.

This is not something I take lightly, nor know little about.

I used to be a member of PETA, as well. From my perspective, I cannot abide by PETAs actions. I do not believe that the health and safety of human beings is secondary to that of animals. When people release sick and diseased animals onto an unwitting public, that is wrong and I will not support an organisation who feels that that is perfectly okay. I am more than willing to hear things that I might fear, but I am not willing to hear that I should contract a disease because of a monkey's right to be free. There is a thing called balance, and I do not believe PETA has that.

I want to live in a world where animals are treated the way they deserve. I want farmers to be under strict guidelines for humane treatment, shelter and slaughter. I do not want to impose my ideas onto the rest of the world about what should and shouldn't be eaten. We are dependent upon animals, and animals are dependent upon us. We will continue for some time consume either their flesh, their wools, or their skins. I would rather concentrate my efforts to make sure that it is done in a humane and dignified way than try to preach to the world that they should give up milk and drink rice milk.

I've been a vegan, and from my point of view, it is not nearly as enjoyable as being a vegetarian or a meat eater. It is not natural, in my view, and it is very difficult and expensive. It is wrong, to me, to force veganism onto a public with limited money and time. It is a choice of the privileged. And that's fine, but it is unreasonable to expect the world to adopt it.

[Desert Arabian]

All I have to say is I have and want nothing to do with PETA! I don't care for them, for they are **WAY** to extreme, in my views. And they are against hunters- obviously, and as you can guess I don't like them for that either- but anyways.........

Like I said: "MY" VIEWS- so please don't take any offense to my opinion.



Oh, I just thought I'd say a little fact about our primate cousins, which I learned on the Discovery Planet. Did you know that Chimpanzees (sp) eat meat and plants- just like humans. I think that is really neat!! I was always under the impression that they only ate vegetation. :)

[mugsy]

OH yeah....Chimps and Gorillas both eat meat. That's one of the interesting things about Chimps...they make rudimentary tools from pieces of grass so they can stick it down in holes in rotten wood to get the termites and ants....YUMMY!! lol

Btw....don't hate me, but I do have a great distaste for hunting, but then, trust me, my parent's neighbor in northern Wisconsin (north of Hayward on the Eau Claire Chain of Lakes) and I have had some rather heated discussions on the matter!! lol Imagine that...ME...EVER having a heated discussion! lol He also traps which I absolutely abhor. I guess I've never seen the sport in hunting down an animal that has no defense against a gun or the human intellect (although there are some hunters out there that make me question the advantage....of course not ALL, nor the majority) just in the name of sport. But I also DETEST the taste of wild game, so that makes a difference also. Venison makes me gag...and EVERYONE ALWAYS says, "You've never had it the way I make it!" lol That always makes me laugh!! I also have many friends who choose to hunt (and of course rub it in to me! lol)

[Desert Arabian]

LOL... that's ok.... I know not everyone likes the idea of hunting, which I 100% understand. Usually it doesn't bother me when people talk about their dis-tastes, unless it is EXTREMELY offensive- then I might say something. :rolleyes:

About the monkey meat thing, yea, on the program I was watching they showed theses male chimps chasing down these little monkeys, and they killed one, and of course they ate it. I thought that was a little weird, but in a way it was cool too. ;)

[Desert Arabian]

p.s. I do 100% disagree with trapping- I think that is one of the most un-humane ways to kill an animals, because they suffer in the trap etc. I am a junior hunter safety instructor, and there was a unit about trapping. Me and my older friend Scott refused to teach that unit, and we went in the back room until they were done covering it.

I mean, I could understand people doing it in the pioneer era, back then they didn't have big grocery stores like Pick-n-Save, and that was their main way of survival.

[mugsy]

There are instances of some species hunting down the young of the same species and eating them. Grizzly's are that way too. As are lions and tigers (and bears oh my!). Most animal mothers tend to keep their young away from the males of the species until they get older for that very reason.

[mugsy]

OH geez...you can't tell you're from Wisconsin!! lol I haven't heard about Pick and Save in a LONG time! lol

[Desert Arabian]

:) :D ;) :p :rolleyes: :) :D :p :rolleyes: ;)