County seeks to reduce deer population

[cassiesmom]

This just feels problematic to me. Like something is bound to go wrong with it. Why not just relocate them? What's wrong with deer anyway? People like deer except when cars hit them or they munch on gardens.


From the Chicago Tribune online:
Will County is looking for volunteer sharpshooters to cull female deer from five of its forest preserves.

The aim is to reduce the number of deer to between 20 to 30 per square mile. The Will County Forest Preserve District estimates that's anywhere from 332 to 406 deer.

Using their own rifles, applicants will be required to hit a 1.9-inch circular target at 50 yards five times with only five attempts allowed. Applicants also will have to pass, among other things, a criminal background test and a drug-screening test.

While government-led deer eradication efforts are sometimes controversial, officials said they've become crucial to improving the overall health of the herd, protecting threatened trees and plants, and reducing the types of vehicle crashes that have become all too common in Chicago's suburbs, So delicate is the balance of life in the forest preserves, officials say, that the snacking habits of deer can profoundly alter the natural environment for countless species.

In Will County, among the fastest-growing counties in Illinois over the last decade, officials have spent tens of millions of dollars to acquire land for forest preserves and densely wooded public parks. Those 20,000 acres now provide shelter and an increasingly scarce supply of food to thousands of white-tailed deer that have adapted masterfully to their new urban environment.

Though white-tailed deer are native to much of the northern U.S., habitat changes and near-unlimited hunting in the late 19th century pushed the deer to the brink of extinction in Illinois, said Marty Jones, urban deer project manager at the Illinois Department of Natural Resources. The state banned deer hunting for 50 years, which, combined with other conservation efforts over the last century, brought white-tailed deer back in a big way.

Anyone wanting to apply must pick up an application from police offices at Illinois Highway 52 and Cherry Hill Road beginning 8 a.m. Monday.

The shooting will be done at night when the forest preserves are closed from December through March.

The forest preserves (and estimated number of deer to be killed) are McKinley Woods (113-114), Lockport Prairie (17-22), Messenger Woods/Messenger Marsh (61-83), Sandridge Savanna/Kankakee Sands (32-50) and Goodenow Grove/Plum Valley (109-137).

The forest preserve board approved the kill in September.

"We believe that this is the best method to deal with the number of deer we have now," said Marcy DeMauro, executive director of the Forest Preserve District, during the period of debate.

Opponents had lobbied for the use of contraceptive darts.

"Killing is not humane," said District Commissioner Kathleen Konicki, R-Homer Glen. "Sharpshooting may be more humane than sport hunting, but it can't hold a candle to immuno-contraception (contraceptive darts)."

More information can be found on the Will County Forest Preserve District web site.

[aTailOf2Kitties]

deer tend to overpopulate until they end up invading urban areas or outgrow their food supply. Then, instead of a small number of healthy deer, you got a whole bunch of underfed ones. Sterilized deer still eat ya know.

Kill them humanely (hence the sharpshooters, and not just a bunch of guys with hunting licenses), but at least donate the meat to a worthy cause.

BTW deer will, in fact, attack domestic animals and people if threatened. They're not all gentle and innocent like people want to believe. I saw a video clip of a doe seriously injuring a totally innocent dog once (and in a neighborhood, at that). They can really, really mess you up when they feel threatened.

[Karen]

Because we humans have eliminated the wolves that kept the deer population in check in most states, deer do overpopulate, ruining forests by stripping bark from trees after they have eaten all the lower growth, and they end up starving, more vulnerable to ticks which then spread to companion animals and humans, and eventually can been seen dead and dying at the side of highways, particularly in winter. It is an awful, awful, heart-wrenching sight. Especially in some Eastern States, like Pennsylvania, the deer overpopulation has ruined forest ecosystems for other creatures, too, causing other species to suffer.

A humane, quick death if far preferable to slow, painful death by starvation, don't you think? I will never forget the skeletal starving deer we saw when I was a kid, licking salt from the roads in western New York state, and the carcasses of the ones who had just died and fell, near the edges of the woods. Horrific.

[Twisterdog]

Because we humans have eliminated the wolves that kept the deer population in check in most states, deer do overpopulate, ruining forests by stripping bark from trees after they have eaten all the lower growth, and they end up starving, more vulnerable to ticks which then spread to companion animals and humans, and eventually can been seen dead and dying at the side of highways, particularly in winter. It is an awful, awful, heart-wrenching sight. Especially in some Eastern States, like Pennsylvania, the deer overpopulation has ruined forest ecosystems for other creatures, too, causing other species to suffer.

A humane, quick death if far preferable to slow, painful death by starvation, don't you think? I will never forget the skeletal starving deer we saw when I was a kid, licking salt from the roads in western New York state, and the carcasses of the ones who had just died and fell, near the edges of the woods. Horrific.

Agreed completely. Humans ruined the natural balanced ecosystem, and now there are FAR more deer than there ever were. They are a huge problem in the midwest, too.

[blue]

IL and/or Chicago deer arent tasty? Why havent they been hunted before now to keep their numbers down?

Deer=food. Where is the problem here.

[Bonny]

Not enough hunters around to hunt them anymore. The hunters that are hunting are going after trophy bucks for the racks. This year they can only shoot 10 point bucks & up as far a bucks go. There is bow, muzzle, & shot gun season besides. Our state is second in deer population with all the corn & bean fields for them to feast on. The coyotes kill a lot of the fawns in the spring around here but there are still a lot of deer. :eek:

[lizbud]

The yearly deer hunt has already started in Indiana. They close all of
the State Parks for a few days & start shooting. No markmanship test is
required, only a hunting licence. I wonder how many are just wounded and
left to bleed out somewhere in the brush?:(

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/25682723/detail.html

[aTailOf2Kitties]

I wonder how many are just wounded and
left to bleed out somewhere in the brush?:(
Do you mean totally abandoned? Or just not killed instantly?

As far as total abandonment..Why would someone sit in a tree in the freezing cold for hours and finally shoot a deer just to let it get away? Animals generally aren't attracted to loud banging noises, so one you've fired your gun, it's not like you've got anything else to do for a little while. Follow the blood trail find your deer and take it home.

Keep in mind the goal of every hunter is to kill an animal as quickly as possible. So yeah some do bleed out in the bushes, but hunters try to avoid having to go track down a wounded deer, and it's still less traumatic than being mauled by predators.

[cassiesmom]

Thank you, fellow PTers for answering my questions.

Driving home from my mom and dad's last night I stopped for a doe crossing Wolf Road. They blend in well with the grass and trees, especially at night. I wish the street lights were either closer together, or brighter. She was walking across the street, not in a hurry, and I was going slowly enough that I could slow down. Sometimes they dash out from someone's yard into the street and keep going. I just don't want to hit one.

[Karen]

Not enough hunters around to hunt them anymore. The hunters that are hunting are going after trophy bucks for the racks. This year they can only shoot 10 point bucks & up as far a bucks go. There is bow, muzzle, & shot gun season besides. Our state is second in deer population with all the corn & bean fields for them to feast on. The coyotes kill a lot of the fawns in the spring around here but there are still a lot of deer. :eek:

That's why the best solution - were there not human beings with pets around - would be to reintroduce the grey wolves. A wolf, especially in a pack can take down an adult deer, a coyote just cannot, so they have limited effectiveness as population control.

[Bonny]

There is a problem with the wolves though. Wolves kill to eat, wolves kill to teach their young how to hunt, wolves kill for recreation. Out West outfitters are having to deal with the wolves brought into Yellowstone. Mainly the elk & mule deer population is suffering. The wolves chase the elk kill the young for all of the above. The cows slip their calves from being chased. There are to many packs & it is out of control. It is like farmers here dealing with coyotes killing calves. I have seen sickly deer over the last couple of years so maybe that will be the thing to thin them out?

[Karen]

That's why I said "were there not human beings" ...

[Bonny]

Thats the problem. There are humans everywhere. The only place I know of where it isn't so populated would be up above the Arctic Circle, Siberia, Northwest Territories.

[Karen]

Thats the problem. There are humans everywhere. The only place I know of where it isn't so populated would be up above the Arctic Circle, Siberia, Northwest Territories.

Which is why the "deer population problem" is really a human problem. Human beings need to accept responsibility and come up with a solution. If that means permitting hunting, and forbidding people from feeding the wild deer, some people will be upset by that, but will have to learn to adjust.

[Puckstop31]

The hunters that are hunting are going after trophy bucks for the racks. This year they can only shoot 10 point bucks & up as far a bucks go. There is bow, muzzle, & shot gun season besides. Our state is second in deer population with all the corn & bean fields for them to feast on. The coyotes kill a lot of the fawns in the spring around here but there are still a lot of deer. :eek:

What state are you in? Are you sure the "10 point only" rule is not something from a local preserve or club? Mature bucks in the midwest, generally speaking, tend to carry more antler than others.... But ONLY 10 points or more? I've seen 8 points that score much higher than some 10s....

[Puckstop31]

The yearly deer hunt has already started in Indiana. They close all of
the State Parks for a few days & start shooting. No markmanship test is
required, only a hunting licence. I wonder how many are just wounded and
left to bleed out somewhere in the brush?:(

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/25682723/detail.html

There is a LOT more to a humane kill than simple marksmanship. Even an perfect "double lung" shot does not guarantee recovery. Its a sad aspect of hunting. ANY hunter who does not feel horrible for not finding an animal they shoot, is not a true hunter who does it out of respect for the wild.

FWIW, any broadside shot in the torso, using modern hunting rifle ammo, should result in a relativley humane kill.

I don't know about IN, but in PA... When they do these "cull" hunts, they require a marksmanship test. Also, FWIW, I personally would not participate in such a hunt. Yes, it is required to be done. This kind of control is better than starvation or CWD... But its not a "hunt". Big difference between a "cull" and hunting.

[Puckstop31]

Do you mean totally abandoned? Or just not killed instantly?

As far as total abandonment..Why would someone sit in a tree in the freezing cold for hours and finally shoot a deer just to let it get away? Animals generally aren't attracted to loud banging noises, so one you've fired your gun, it's not like you've got anything else to do for a little while. Follow the blood trail find your deer and take it home.

Keep in mind the goal of every hunter is to kill an animal as quickly as possible. So yeah some do bleed out in the bushes, but hunters try to avoid having to go track down a wounded deer, and it's still less traumatic than being mauled by predators.

Trust me... For EVERY hunter I know, not finding a deer they shoot is a VERY bad thing. For instance, I had several "makeable" shot opportunties this year during archery season. But I passed the shot on all of them, because it was not a "for sure" shot. Are there "hunters" who shoot deer and not recover them? Maybe. But they are a EXTREME minority.

The question about sitting in the freeze... If ya gotta ask... You'll never get it. LOL

"Banging" noises.... It all depends on the environment. I watched a group of does this year, browsing at the edge of a corn field, just watch a combine pass not 10 feet away.

"Follow the blood." Not always as easy as it sounds. Depending on the shot angle and the weapon used, there may be very little or no blood from a mortal shot.


What I am getting at... For the non hunters here.... 99% of the sterotypes about us, are wrong. They just are.

[Bonny]

What state are you in? Are you sure the "10 point only" rule is not something from a local preserve or club? Mature bucks in the midwest, generally speaking, tend to carry more antler than others.... But ONLY 10 points or more? I've seen 8 points that score much higher than some 10s....

I heard it on a radio station in Southern Minnesota. The dogs & I have picked up the finer 8 point horns from yearling bucks & found more thicker horns of mature 8 point bucks in the early spring. It depends on the maturity of the buck. I guess in Minnesota there aren't many trophy bucks so they want them to lay off shooting the bucks so put a restriction on it for now. I don't know if it is the whole state or a county in Southeastern Minnesota? Trophy bucks bring in more hunters I guess that are interested in the racks more than anything. I know we have plenty of big mature doe in our area & there are signs of bucks on the trails during the rutt with the bark rubbed off of trees. I have seen mainly younger bucks in my area this past year. Last year a hunter got a trophy buck hunting in the back of our woods & he was from Minnesota. So it must be a big thing there. I am in Iowa the land of the corn, soybeans, & deer. :D

[Twisterdog]

There is a problem with the wolves though. Wolves kill to eat, wolves kill to teach their young how to hunt, wolves kill for recreation. Out West outfitters are having to deal with the wolves brought into Yellowstone. Mainly the elk & mule deer population is suffering. The wolves chase the elk kill the young for all of the above. The cows slip their calves from being chased. There are to many packs & it is out of control. It is like farmers here dealing with coyotes killing calves. I have seen sickly deer over the last couple of years so maybe that will be the thing to thin them out?

With all due respect, that's not true at all. As a Wyoming resident, where 90% of release-based wolf packs reside, I could provide facts to refute every point you made, but that's not the topic of this thread, so I won't hijack. I have no idea where you got this information, but it's one-sided, exaggarated rhetoric.

[Bonny]

With all due respect, that's not true at all. As a Wyoming resident, where 90% of release-based wolf packs reside, I could provide facts to refute every point you made, but that's not the topic of this thread, so I won't hijack. I have no idea where you got this information, but it's one-sided, exaggarated rhetoric.


I know outfitters in Dubois, & Cody that will tell you differently along with Salmon, Idaho your next door neighbor. I have seen wolves in action. A huge wolf chased a young elk right through our camp & the wolf didn't bat an eye. I heard & saw the fear of the baby elk while it was being chased down. There have been documentaries about the wolfs of Yellowstone & ranchers trying to make a living while their livestock are being killed by wolves. There is a saying out in the Yellowstone area shot & shovel. :(

[Karen]

Bonny, you keep dragging this thread into an anti-wolf thing. That's not what the thread is about. It is about the deer overpopulation problem. If you want so badly to debate wolves, there are other places on the Internet to do that. Not here, not this thread. I only mentioned their near extinction as one of the reasons for the deer overpopulation problem.

[moosmom]

Why can't they have a birth control injection, like they do with cats, that will curb the deer population.

It seems that we go through this every year with the same outcome. (Where's Sara Palin and her trusty shotgun when you need her?) I've said it before, I'll say it again...these animals were here LOOONG before we were. We need to respect that.

My Dad always taught me that nature is cruel. I never realized till now how right he was.

[Bonny]

No, Karen, You were the one who bought wolves up. Common sense & experience is what I know about wolves. You mentioned bringing wolves in to hunt the deer. It won't work period!

[Puckstop31]

Why can't they have a birth control injection, like they do with cats, that will curb the deer population.

From what I have read on this topic.... First, it is rather expensive. Second, it would be a major task to capture, inject and release does in estrus during the time of year they go into heat. "The Rut" is high part of the deer hunting season.


It seems that we go through this every year with the same outcome. (Where's Sara Palin and her trusty shotgun when you need her?)

It is abundantly clear that the best (easiest?) way to control the deer population is proper hunting policy. For the most part, in most states that I read about and anecdotal evidence from other hunters I talk to, the huntiung laws are effective.

The problem is that there are, for various reasons, less hunters every year. Also in the mix is a misunderstanding by the general public about what is "good" for wild animals. An example is what is going on in the Philadelphia suburbs area in PA. These are Wildlife Management Areas 5C and 5D. They issued a HUGE number of antlerless deer permits and extended the archery season for antlerless deer by 2 weeks on the front and 6 weeks on teh back of the regualr season. Results? 20,000 unsold tags and the need for even more "cull" hunts in those areas. Reason? The biggest one is access to the deer. Large areas of huntable land is privately owned and the owners refuse to allow hunters to hunt "their" deer. A large portion of the people even routinely feed them.

FWIW, nice dig on SP there. :) Not sure how it fits here, but nice dig anyway.


I've said it before, I'll say it again...these animals were here LOOONG before we were. We need to respect that.

My Dad always taught me that nature is cruel. I never realized till now how right he was.

Indeed. I guess people need to come to terms with what, exactly, "respect" for nature means?

As for cruel... I'm not sure I understand what you mean? Are you saying hunting is cruel? Man is the apex predator and another part of the chain. I don't think nature is "cruel". Rather, it is goverend by absolute law. And not the "law" mankind thinks about.

[moosmom]

What he meant by "Nature is cruel" is the pecking order of nature, and how coyotes attack little animals for food, etc. As for hunting, while I'm not a big fan of hunting, I believe there is a BIG difference between hunting for the pleasure of KILLING little animals or just for the thrill of the kill, and hunting to put food on the table (and I mean using every single bit of the animal).

EXAMPLE: Farms that have BIG cats and animals that hunters (I want to say animal killers) pay THOUSANDS of dollars for, to hunt down and kill for a cheap thrill. To me that is NOT acceptable.

Ted Nugent is an avid hunter. HOWEVER, he uses every single bit of the animal for food. What he doesn't use he donates to local food pantries. BIG difference.

[Puckstop31]

What he meant by "Nature is cruel" is the pecking order of nature, and how coyotes attack little animals for food, etc. As for hunting, while I'm not a big fan of hunting, I believe there is a BIG difference between hunting for the pleasure of KILLING little animals or just for the thrill of the kill, and hunting to put food on the table (and I mean using every single bit of the animal).

EXAMPLE: Farms that have BIG cats and animals that hunters (I want to say animal killers) pay THOUSANDS of dollars for, to hunt down and kill for a cheap thrill. To me that is NOT acceptable.

Ted Nugent is an avid hunter. HOWEVER, he uses every single bit of the animal for food. What he doesn't use he donates to local food pantries. BIG difference.



Thank you for the explanation.

I agree that there is a big difference between hunting for meat and hunting to put a nice mount on the wall. I also agree that the ranches that offer "high fence" hunts, are appalling and not in any way a real hunt.

I'm a big advocate of only killing what you will eat. I try to only hunt game animals that I intend to consume. The exception is groundhogs.... But this is a little off topic here. LOL But what I WILL say is this... If I get a big 10 point buck on the ground next year in Illinois... Yes, I will eat it all. But that once in a lifetime deer will also become a mount for my wall. Which is something I don't normally do.


----

Hunting, to me and all the guys I run with at least, is about WAY more than the kill. Heck, I had the best hunting weekend of my life last weekend and did not kill a deer.

[Karen]

No, Karen, You were the one who bought wolves up. Common sense & experience is what I know about wolves. You mentioned bringing wolves in to hunt the deer. It won't work period!

I said - in the first post that I mentioned the wolves "That's why the best solution - were there not human beings with pets around - would be to reintroduce the grey wolves."

All the instances you talk about are problems that human being have - ranchers for example. Yes, it's livestock, not pets, but it's essentially the same thing. Remove the human beings from the equation and it would be a different story. But we know that's not going to happen, so reintroducing wolves cannot happen in most places. So humans will have to deal with the problem they created when they eliminated the wolf.

[moosmom]

so humans will have to deal with the problem they created when they eliminated the wolf

exactly!!!

[Twisterdog]

I know outfitters in Dubois, & Cody that will tell you differently along with Salmon, Idaho your next door neighbor. I have seen wolves in action. A huge wolf chased a young elk right through our camp & the wolf didn't bat an eye. I heard & saw the fear of the baby elk while it was being chased down. There have been documentaries about the wolfs of Yellowstone & ranchers trying to make a living while their livestock are being killed by wolves. There is a saying out in the Yellowstone area shot & shovel. :(

Oh, I'm sure outfitters WILL tell you that. Doesn't make it a scientific fact. And I'm sure an elk DID chase a baby elk, and that it WAS afraid. Elk are wolves natural prey, of course they kill and eat them. Elk and wolves co-existed in a natural, balanced eco system long before humans showed up here. Wolves aren't the problem, people are.

There is always more than one side to a story, any story. There are plenty of elk and deer in Wyoming, and more than enough cows ... for which ranchers are compensated NICELY for, if one is even suspected of being a wolf kill. Not proven, just suspected. Cows are not a native species, they were put on our public lands because it's a cheap way for ranchers to feed them. Wolves are a native species, in a wilderness area ... but now they are a problem, because of someone's cows? Hmmmm ..... But let's not let the facts confuse us.

[aTailOf2Kitties]

blah blah blah wolf, blah blah blah wolf:rolleyes:.... whatever! Let's get back to how tasty deer are and how they're easier to cook and eat when they're dead.

[moosmom]

Elk and wolves co-existed in a natural, balanced eco system long before humans showed up here. Wolves aren't the problem, people are.


I couldn't have said it better, Twisterdog!!!

[Bonny]

Oh, I'm sure outfitters WILL tell you that. Doesn't make it a scientific fact. And I'm sure an elk DID chase a baby elk, and that it WAS afraid. Elk are wolves natural prey, of course they kill and eat them. Elk and wolves co-existed in a natural, balanced eco system long before humans showed up here. Wolves aren't the problem, people are.

There is always more than one side to a story, any story. There are plenty of elk and deer in Wyoming, and more than enough cows ... for which ranchers are compensated NICELY for, if one is even suspected of being a wolf kill. Not proven, just suspected. Cows are not a native species, they were put on our public lands because it's a cheap way for ranchers to feed them. Wolves are a native species, in a wilderness area ... but now they are a problem, because of someone's cows? Hmmmm ..... But let's not let the facts confuse us.

Think like a rancher. A $800.00 cow, with a $500.00 calf running at its side, along with a fetus inside the cow worth $300.00 when it is born. Then you have the wolves outside the park chasing the cattle & the rancher is hoping to make his money on the cattle grazing on the grasses but that isn't happening because the wolfs are doing a number on them. It would be like throwing 10 per cent of your pay check out the window. PBS has done many documentaries on the wolfs, & people that live outside the Yellowstone area. I actually saw a huge wolf run right by me chasing a baby elk. It made me sick. :( Maybe there are to many wolf packs. I know the ranchers,& some of the outfitters are working on it.

As for the deer if you want to come to our area to hunt you can have up to as many as 5 tasty deer per person. The DNR is controlling the deer population & they basically have the say so. What humans are you pertaining to? The ones that control the population or the ones that run into the deer with their cars, own the deer populated lands? There are LESS HUNTERS now & that is part of the problem & there are some hunters people won't allow on their land because they are very careless. We have at least three groups come onto our land to hunt. Some of our neighbors won't allow anyone on their land to hunt. There is a private land owner that lives in town & hunts on his own property but doesn't allow anyone else to hunt on his land. We have another neighbor that has opened up his property to hunters, actually his neighbor next door. It has a lot to do with government control as far as what will happen to the deer? They are the ones that call the shots more then anyone & we have to live with it.

[Bonny]

That's why the best solution - were there not human beings with pets around - would be to reintroduce the grey wolves. A wolf, especially in a pack can take down an adult deer, a coyote just cannot, so they have limited effectiveness as population control.

Yesterday in Rochester, Minnesota a trapper was trapping coyotes & trapped a gray wolf. The gray wolfs paw was caught in the trap but was not badly injured & the gray wolf was released. The DNR thinks the wolves came over from Wisconsin. I guess there are more of them in Southeastern Minnesota(really rough forested hilly lands) but no packs have formed as yet. So we have wolfs about 60 miles away from the land of corn, soybeans, & deer.