Rex Murphy: Testing America’s tolerance

[Catty1]

Rex Murphy offers commentary weekly on CBC TV’s The National and is host of CBC Radio’s Cross Country Checkup.


Rex Murphy: Testing America’s tolerance

Rex Murphy August 14, 2010 – 9:30 am

Timothy A. Clary / AFP / Getty Images

A woman protests the planned construction of an Islamic centre near the World Trade Center site in Lower Manhattan on Aug. 3.

On the matter of the Islamic centre set to be built near the site of the downed Twin Towers, I dismiss utterly what New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg seems to fear — that Americans will carry the mark of intolerance unless they permit the building to go forward.

From 9/11 onwards, from the White House to main street, Americans have made it sunshine clear that the attacks of that day were not going to warp their country’s values, were not an occasion for raining abuse or vengeance upon America’s Muslim citizens. George W. Bush himself, with the full weight of his office (and, I’d add, at some political risk to himself) was without stint in proclaiming Islam a “religion of peace.” He even went to a Washington mosque to underline solidarity with American Muslims and their peaceful co-religionists all over the world.

Which strips all force from Bloomberg’s lukewarm pleadings that there is now, a near decade on, the need for a 13- or 15-storey homage to Islam but a shadow away from ground zero, to supply some sort of architectural instantiation or proof of that tolerance.

How tolerant America has been on this issue is further shown in the near insouciance and ease which which the proponents of the Ground Zero mosque (as it’s become known) make their proposal. They think it’s the most normal, casual thing in the world to propose such a building next door to the greatest terror operation ever unleashed in America, executed by Islamist fanatics in the dead heart of America’s greatest city, and involving the murder of thousands, the desolation of families, unspeakable mental and physical sacrifices by first-responding fire and police personnel — not to mention the cataclysmic financial repercussions the destruction was also designed to achieve.

It is an almost boundlessly tolerant city and society — New York and America. But we must make a note on this point: A tolerance is being, and has been, shown, toward Islam, which Islam emphatically does not show to other creeds in regions or countries where Islam is predominant. In some Muslim places, a mere Bible in a suitcase is an indictable offence.

What is the numerical gap, I wonder, between the number of mosques in Western, nominally Christian cities, and the number of Christian churches or cathedrals in predominantly Muslim ones? In New York alone, there already are at least a hundred mosques. How many Catholic cathedrals, Shinto shrines or Buddist temples in Saudia Arabia? On the subject of religious tolerance, that grand old rancid imperialist Kipling is still au courant: East is East and West is West, and ne’er the twain shall meet.

Islam has a voracious appetite for tolerance when it is the suppliant; when it is, so to speak, a sojourner among the infidels. It is aggressively, even imaginatively, vigorous in availing of the democratic rights of societies to which some of its followers have migrated. It has acquired an admirable expertise in taking advantage of the institutions and practices of host societies, from politics and the media, to protests and the courts, which aid the full pursuit of those rights.

This commendable agility finds no mirror in most Muslim societies. Tolerance received or enjoyed by Muslims in the West does not seem to awaken a concordant impulse to afford a reciprocal tolerance from Muslims to other religions in countries where Islam is dominant. So, again, America has nothing to prove in this domain. And if New York authorities are going along with this proposal because they are afraid what people outside America might think, they are being, needlessly, both callow and cowardly.

But if the Islamic centre is built; and if it is to be, as professed, a bridge to understanding and reconciliation, there are a few tests we could apply — a few thoughts or suggestions for what might reasonably be found in such a strategically placed building, shadowed as it will forever be by the spectral dust of 2001.

For example, a mosque in deliberate proximity to the scene of the Ground Zero slaughter will surely — unavoidably — have a section, a room, or a display, perhaps a miniature museum, on the events of that horrible day — giving some interpretation on what happened and why: what that day said, and did not say about Islam.

Could there not be, for example, photographs of the 19 fanatic terrorists? They could be presented in some sort of stylized rogues gallery: Here are those who plotted and executed evil jihad against America. Underneath, there could be a statement of categorical condemnation: These were a band of betrayers and corrupters of Islam, who did perverse deeds in Islam’s name. We Americans, Muslims all, in this holy place condemn and scorn their deeds and motives.
Maybe this could be accompanied by some work of art to commemorate the dead — those who died in the attacks themselves, and those who died during the attempt to rescue people within the towers.

If it is to be in the vicinity of 9/11’s wreckage, it must pay respectful and felt homage to 9/11.
A mosque, that by its installations and presentations, derided the mischiefs done in Islam’s name, which in its declarations and stated understanding of 9 11 actually turned out to be a thorn in the side of fanatic Islamists everywhere, would be a worthy adjunct to the precincts of the now absent twin towers. It would be a work of understanding.

So, maybe the question now is not “Should it be built?” But, “What is to be built?” And if those who speak of understanding and reconciliation are serious, following a few of the suggestions here, or others from people much closer to this affair than I, could disarm all criticism and reproach. This should be, in this sense, if it goes ahead, the most American mosque ever.

If instead, it retains a purely claustrophobic Islamic character, if it is just an Islamic centre physically very close to where the towers once stood, but intellectually or civically remote and aloof from its all important site, it will be a failure. If it rejects any show of explicit condemnation or does not offer tokens of memorial, then I think the case of the critics will be immeasurable strengthened: that is, that this project is a none-too-subtle provocation, a tacit baiting of an already wounded America, and — worst of all, a kind of gaming of that precious tolerance to which it makes a spurious and offensive appeal.

National Post

Posted in: Full Comment, U.S. Politics Tags: Rex Murphy, Ground Zero Mosque

Read more: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/08/14/rex-murphy-testing-americas-tolerance/#ixzz0wdd6Ca7t

[Bonny]

Do you think for a start they would allow us to build a memorial in honor of the people killed at the Twin Towers in Mecca?

[blue]

I like the idea of opening a Gay bar next to to the "Ground Zero" mosque that caters to gay muslim men.

[wombat2u2004]

I think it should go ahead, using all of that oil money to build it.
And then we could run a plane through their sacred box in Mecca, and build a Catholic Church there.
Sound good ??? Sounds fair ???
Let's put it to the muslim clerics........we should negotiate......after all, we are after reconciliation arn't we ????

[RICHARD]

Bury a Red Sox jersey when they pour the foundation.

-------------------------


Whoever thought of building a mosque that close to GZ in New York is an ArseHat with a life time membership.

That my friends is a slap in the face not only to the 3k+ that died, but to everyone here in the U.S.

And they will laugh at every brick and piece of steel as it goes up.

-------

Too bad the economy is effed up- those guys that build probably cannot pass up the chance to be employed.....and if they do got to work on it, I hope the do some shoddy work, You know the kind that Americans are known for.

That way they will ship the work overseas next time the get a stupid idea like that into action

------------

http://www.thewrap.com/node/20003


Then open a strip bar with a giant effing BBQ specializing in Beef, chicken and PORK on the other side.

[blue]

I think it should go ahead, using all of that oil money to build it.
And then we could run a plane through their sacred box in Mecca, and build a Catholic Church there.
Sound good ??? Sounds fair ???
Let's put it to the muslim clerics........we should negotiate......after all, we are after reconciliation arn't we ????

I wish our .GOV had the balls to tell the Sharia Law advocates to go suck eggs and get out.

[blue]

http://www.thewrap.com/node/20003[/url].

That dude is a genius!

[wombat2u2004]

I wish our .GOV had the balls to tell the Sharia Law advocates to go suck eggs and get out.

We live in hope that one day, heartland America will wake up.

[wombat2u2004]

That dude is a genius!

Nawwwww.....that's a token idea. As soon as the muslims have the power, they will close the bar. And if we all keep giving them the stepping stones, they will have that power sooner than we think.

[blue]

We live in hope that one day, heartland America will wake up.

Its not the Heartland that needs waking up, its the far left Obama nutswingers that need the wake up call.


Nawwwww.....that's a token idea. As soon as the muslims have the power, they will close the bar. And if we all keep giving them the stepping stones, they will have that power sooner than we think.

Go lay down, and keep sucking up to Michael Moore, see how far that gets you.

[wombat2u2004]

Bury a Red Sox jersey when they pour the foundation.

Don't laugh about that one mate....it just might happen.
In Malaya (a muslim country) they used to bury a child live in the foundations of a new bridge....that was to ensure that the bridge remained safe.
Another example of a sick and twisted culture ????
Sounds like something Neandertal Man would do 70,000 years ago.
I guess some things just don't change.

[wombat2u2004]

Its not the Heartland that needs waking up, its the far left Obama nutswingers that need the wake up call.

No......they just need to lose their jobs.

[blue]

No......they just need to lose their jobs.

Obama would have to lose his job first.

[wombat2u2004]

Go lay down, and keep sucking up to Michael Moore, see how far that gets you.

Hee hee.....I don't need to do that.......all I need to do is focus on reality.
Heartland America is fast asleep.......apathetic America is wide awake.

[wombat2u2004]

Obama would have to lose his job first.

Offer him a better job.
There must be a store somewhere that sells grits who would employ him.

[blue]

Offer him a better job.
There must be a store somewhere that sells grits who would employ him.

RACIST!!!!

Kidding, I love the grits.

[wombat2u2004]

RACIST!!!!

Kidding, I love the grits.

Absolutely. ;)

[blue]

Hee hee.....I don't need to do that.......all I need to do is focus on reality.
Heartland America is fast asleep.......apathetic America is wide awake.

The opposite is true, Apathetic America is very much asleep which is why they keep voting the same DBags back into office year after year. Heartland America is out voted by the easily bought sleeping voters.

[wombat2u2004]

The opposite is true, Apathetic America is very much asleep which is why they keep voting the same DBags back into office year after year. Heartland America is out voted by the easily bought sleeping voters.

We maybe everyone needs to wake up.

[Bonny]

Actually the Hearland should leave the Union & start their own democratic government. BHO is selling us out. :mad:

[Karen]

We, the American people, elected BHO. If you do not like politicians in office, don't vote for the incumbents.

One of the founding principles of our country is separation of church and state, and every American is free to pursue the religion of his or her choice.

If you don;t like that, you can move elsewhere, in my humble opinion.

[Bonny]

Not everyone voted for BHO & a lot of people that did aren't happy with the results.Yes, the Muslims can move back to their own country where they don't have to worship among us Infidels. This country was settled by Christian people with a whole different set of beliefs & values then the Muslims. This is my country & I don't plan on leaving it anytime soon. Forget being humble because that is what is wrong with this counrtry.

[Karen]

Not everyone voted for BHO & a lot of people that did aren't happy with the results.Yes, the Muslims can move back to their own country where they don't have to worship among us Infidels. This country was settled by Christian people with a whole different set of beliefs & values then the Muslims. This is my country & I don't plan on leaving it anytime soon. Forget being humble because that is what is wrong with this counrtry.

They don't need to move - they are as welcome here as any other religious group. What do you have against our beloved Popcornbird, for example?

And if you want to get picky about it, there were people here before white settlers arrived who were not Christians, and it's their country, too. You'd likely have little in common with the Pilgrims, if you looked at what they believed, do you celebrate Christmas? Easter? They didn't.

Not everyone voted for BHO, and sure people are allowed to complain about any politician, but this is a participatory democracy. As Americans, we understand - or should, anyway - that sometimes our party doesn't win, but rather than just complaining, if we don't like the results, we still have to live with it, and work for change in the next election. That's how it works.

[Bonny]

The people that were here before the white settlers killed each other. They all didn't live in peace & harmony. Where did they come from?

We don't have to live with it. That is why we are fighting a war.

[RICHARD]

Don't laugh about that one mate....it just might happen.
In Malaya (a muslim country) they used to bury a child live in the foundations of a new bridge....that was to ensure that the bridge remained safe.
Another example of a sick and twisted culture ????
Sounds like something Neandertal Man would do 70,000 years ago.
I guess some things just don't change.

I have to repost the story. It was more of a joke than burying a child in the foundation. I don't think neandertal man was interested in burying their off- spring. They were too busy raising them to hunt and gather?;)

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/14/sports/baseball/14jersey.html?_r=1

[Karen]

The people that were here before the white settlers killed each other. They all didn't live in peace & harmony. Where did they come from?

We don't have to live with it. That is why we are fighting a war.

There were many tribes, that were peaceful, and some that were not. Where they came from in generally thought to be crossing the Bering Straight from Russia and Asia long before countries existed.

[Puckstop31]

We, the American people, elected BHO.

And hopefully the lesson has been learned.


One of the founding principles of our country is separation of church and state,

It is? I always find how people take this...

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

And turn it into "Government cannot be religious." All because of a private letter from Jefferson to an Anabaptist minister.

Show me where "separation of church and state" is in the Constitution.

But...


and every American is free to pursue the religion of his or her choice.

100% agreed. But NOT because of the idea of "separation of church and state." Because the 1st Amendment says so.


If you don;t like that, you can move elsewhere, in my humble opinion.

Always amusing to hear people say this.... Pray tell, WHERE?

[Karen]

100% agreed. But NOT because of the idea of "separation of church and state." Because the 1st Amendment says so.

Always amusing to hear people say this.... Pray tell, WHERE?

I count the Amendments as part of the totality of the Constitution.

As for where to move, well, you'd have to pick which kind of religion you'd like to follow. If you want a place that's entirely - or even mostly one religion, there's Vatican City and its environs, for Catholic, Saudi Arabia for Muslim, Armenia for Armenian Apostolic, Greece for Greek Orthodox - The Scandinavian countries for Lutheran - though there you'd still have to put up with more than 10% non-Lutherans ...

[Bonny]

So the Indians came from someplace else just like us. We will end up just like the Indians someday on reservations serving the Muslims in their country the United States of Muslimham. Sounds stupid doesn't it, but we keep acting like a bunch of whimps & it is happening now right under our eyes. There was something about the Roman Empire how the people became lazy & didn't really care anymore about their freedom & they lost it.

[Karen]

So the Indians came from someplace else just like us. We will end up just like the Indians someday on reservations serving the Muslims in their country the United States of Muslimham. Sounds stupid doesn't it, but we keep acting like a bunch of whimps & it is happening now right under our eyes. There was something about the Roman Empire how the people became lazy & didn't really care anymore about their freedom & they lost it.

What makes you think Muslims are trying to take over our country?

And you may not remember it, but when you joined Pet Talk, you had to agree that "By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws."

What makes you think we Americans are wimps? How many men and women have to die in war for you to take back such a comment? Not enough bloodshed for you?

[Bonny]

I am not being HATEFUL AS YOU LIKE TO PUT IT KAREN. Everyone else can come on here & speak their peace. 911 should just be ignored it was a big mistake. We are called Infidels lets just ignore that. The real men & women are fighting a war the rest of us can just sit around & twiddling our thumbs while our government plays chess with our men & women fighting the war. Checkmate!

[wombat2u2004]

I am not being HATEFUL AS YOU LIKE TO PUT IT KAREN. Everyone else can come on here & speak their peace. 911 should just be ignored it was a big mistake. We are called Infidels lets just ignore that. The real men & women are fighting a war the rest of us can just sit around & twiddling our thumbs while our government plays chess with our men & women fighting the war. Checkmate!

No Bonny, you are not being hateful. You are just frustrated at the inability of your elected pollies and the apathetic majority who choose to sweep the silent invasion under the mat.
And a silent invasion it is. Just take a look around the world, and see what Islam has done to other countries. Persecuting Christians is written right there in the Koran.....go read it.....it's got some REAL interesting stuff in it.
But.....we are hit time and time again by the old "Mars Attacks" routine..."We come in peace...We come in peace".
Islam HATES America, and HATES what it stands for....always has.
I'll give the good old USA about 20 or 30 years, enough time for the Muslim immigrants and their breeding habits to get the numbers up, and vote their own into power. Then the Constitution and it's Amendments, including your own Separation of the Powers won't be worth the paper they are written on. You will have Sharia Law, and your country will be run accordingly. There will be no Freedom of Religion....if you are Christian or anything else other than Muslim, you will be disadvantaged.

I think where Karen goes wrong, is where she states "One of the founding principles of our country is separation of church and state, and every American is free to pursue the religion of his or her choice."
It's all about integration.
Are Scandanavian people allowed to marry Jews and each retain their own religion ??? Yes.
Are Mexican Catholics allowed to marry a WASP's, and each retain their own religion ??? Yes.
Are Muslims allowed to marry Christians and each retain their own religion ???
No!!!

[wombat2u2004]

the United States of Muslimham.

Hee hee.......starting with Muslimcheusetts :p

[RICHARD]

But.....we are hit time and time again by the old "Mars Attacks" routine..."We come in peace...We come in peace".


You mean Maaahhh, maaah, maaaah, maaaah.

Something gets lost in the translation.:D;)


Jim Brown's "GF" in the movie was hot.

[wombat2u2004]

Jim Brown's "GF" in the movie was hot.

Awwwwwwwwwww....yeah. ;)

[Karen]

Hee hee.......starting with Muslimcheusetts :p

What do you know about my state - just what the right-wing media portrays?

What is the most common religion here, do you know? Do you have a clue?

Why the heck would you even say "Muslimcheusetts" - have you any clue what it is like to live here?

And Bonny, stating that all Muslims should move out of this country is hateful.

How dare you say that anyone thinks 9/11 should be ignored? How many people you know personally were killed that day? How many screams of personal anguish did you hear that day?

How am I any less a real woman than anyone else?

How many family members do you have currently serving in the military? How many who have served but are now retired?

And wombat, why do you care to cast aspersions on our country, and never comment on your own politicians? You know, there are Muslims in Australia, too ... as well as other non-Christians ...

[wombat2u2004]

A new America is coming :p
http://i970.photobucket.com/albums/ae186/wombat2u2004/burka_graduation.jpg

It isn't about subjugation.....it's about RESPECT !!!!!
And if you don't agree, you'll be stoned to death. :eek:

[Bonny]

I don't call that HATEFUL if you can't learn the language, obey the laws, pay the taxes, it would be expected of me if I moved into a Muslim ruled country. If they live here they are going to have to obey the Infidels rules & laws. Should we open our doors & say come on in do whatever you want we will obey your every whim? That is happening already & with our border to the South, congress is doing nothing to enforce our border, our president passes the buck & is leaving it to congress. Our country is a mess borrowing money from China & other countries to put us further into debt. Do come up with something the Muslim people have done for our country that is positive? When our families came to America they had to conform to the laws there were no exceptions made. Do you think they would make exceptions if I went & lived in their country? 911 is being ignored when a Mosque is to be built next door it is an insult a slap in the face for those who have died & their families.

[Puckstop31]

I count the Amendments as part of the totality of the Constitution.
As for where to move, well, you'd have to pick which kind of religion you'd like to follow. If you want a place that's entirely - or even mostly one religion, there's Vatican City and its environs, for Catholic, Saudi Arabia for Muslim, Armenia for Armenian Apostolic, Greece for Greek Orthodox - The Scandinavian countries for Lutheran - though there you'd still have to put up with more than 10% non-Lutherans ...

I understand that the Amendments are part of the entire Constitution. Why did you need to mention that?


Also the "move" comment was a retorical question. I'm not leaving this country. It is the last stand on Earth for Liberty.

All this being said... I stand by my comments that "separation of church and state" is NOT a founding principle. Freedom to worship as one chooses IS.

[RICHARD]

Are Mexican Catholics allowed to marry a WASP's, and each retain their own religion ??? Yes.


That depends,
The males don't care, Mexican women will wear you down until you become a Catholic.

And you know what that means? Making your own tortillas and lunch if you do not knuckle under....

----------------

This topic has really nothing to do with religion or church and state.

It has to do with compassion and sensibility.

There are components of both sides that have neither.

As the media and people here have commented...

Would we allow the Japanese to put a Shinto Shrine on the deck of the USS Arizona?

Would the Jews be allowed a synagogue at Auschwitz?

Would we put a McDonalds or Starbucks in Hiroshima or Nagasaki? We probably already have.....:rolleyes:

This has to do with respect and not wanting to make YOUR religion/country or politics seem like an uncaring, brutal and just plain mean and nasty import to our country.

The Asshat that wants to build the mosque close to GZ shows no compassion or any of the other common senses that I described, that is the way, not so much of the typical Muslim, but of the AHs refuse to allow modern sensibility or meeting at the middle point of the problem.

I have know muslims that were so patently pious, but did not respect the people or the country (ours) that they live in.

SOME muslim men beat down the females to dress a certain way, not to talk to men etc. Yet, they have no problem with cheating, looking at porn or drinking like fish.

Those are the two faced morons who cast a bad light on the rest of the group that do have compassion, common sense and respect for other people.

-----------

On the other hand?

When the reports of the Anti-mosque groups begin to pull some kind of shenanigans before, during and after it's built?

Well, TS, some of us asked you not to build there our of respect for the moment and area.

You didn't listen, so bite the bullet.

They (the idiots that feel the need to build the mosque) will use any and all problems they encounter as fodder to crucify us in the world forum of public opinion.

I know that sponsors of the mosque snicker and laugh because OUR rules allow them to build, what is essentially an EFF U to what we endured then and now.

So,
We'll have to play by the rules concerning this building, but we should not treat them with anymore apathy than we do with other sites that recruit, endorse or support any kind of fanatic terrorist morons that want to set up shop.


Plus, the Muslims that think this is a bad idea have not come forth to say, "Dude, some morons that made us look stupid then are the reason we
are being told that we should not build a mosque in the area...'


So we have to look at this as more of a political statement-not a religious one.

I am sure there are some Muslims that cringe when they heard the news.....I don't care about them. It's the Iman Imax Tabbouleh that makes me a little leary of the whole process.

Sometimes you just cannot trust the guy in charge, Look at the Catholics and the priests...:eek:

[Medusa]

What I don't understand is why they're so insistent on the mosque being there and not somewhere else. They say that it should promote compassion and understanding and should build a bridge between their culture and ours. Well, surely they can see that it's caused a furor, that too many Americans oppose it and do not want it. So it's having the opposite effect. Yes, we already know that it's their right to build there but this is more than just an issue of rights. The fact that they refuse to back down and build it elsewhere, especially when there are over 100 mosques in NYC already, it makes me wonder what their real agenda is.

[Cataholic]

Must be us Ohioians...as I see it like ^^ does.

[RICHARD]

And the prez shoots his piehole off and spends the rest of the weekend backpedaling, like the guy who rides a bicycle backwards at the circus.

"That's not what I meant!"

LOLOLOLOL,

Just open up a dialogue with your enemies. While you are at the table talking, the other side has broken the side window of your car parked outside and taken a dump on the front seat.

Mr Obama,

You can drive the car back home, I am taking the bus.:o

[lizbud]

I understand that the Amendments are part of the entire Constitution. Why did you need to mention that?


Also the "move" comment was a retorical question. I'm not leaving this country. It is the last stand on Earth for Liberty.

All this being said... I stand by my comments that "separation of church and state" is NOT a founding principle. Freedom to worship as one chooses IS.

Last edited by Puckstop31; Today at 11:54 AM. Reason: Sorry Karen, I was stupidly mean.

I'm glad you finally edited your post. It's never a good idea to poke the bear. Yes, even if you don't get the answers you want to hear.

[lizbud]

Richard,

I agree with you saying..............

" This topic has really nothing to do with religion or church and state.

It has to do with compassion and sensibility.

There are components of both sides that have neither.

As the media and people here have commented...

Would we allow the Japanese to put a Shinto Shrine on the deck of the USS Arizona?

Would the Jews be allowed a synagogue at Auschwitz?

Would we put a McDonalds or Starbucks in Hiroshima or Nagasaki? We probably already have.....

This has to do with respect and not wanting to make YOUR religion/country or politics seem like an uncaring, brutal and just plain mean and nasty import to our country.

The Asshat that wants to build the mosque close to GZ shows no compassion or any of the other common senses that I described, that is the way, not so much of the typical Muslim, but of the AHs refuse to allow modern sensibility or meeting at the middle point of the problem.

I have know muslims that were so patently pious, but did not respect the people or the country (ours) that they live in."



I don't know how much the Islam culture is influenced by it's religion,
but I'd say a lot. In fact, I can't distinquish between their culture and their
religious views. Maybe they are just not a compassionate people in the
Western way of thinking.??

[RICHARD]

I don't know how much the Islam culture is influenced by it's religion,
but I'd say a lot. In fact, I can't distinquish between their culture and their
religious views. Maybe they are just not a compassionate people in the
Western way of thinking.??

The culture and the 'government' are way influenced with the tenets of the religion.

Where else on the planet would the people in charge let a 'court of law' sentence people to be killed with rocks.

Someone posted the line about the people who were doing the rock tossing not use big rocks because it would kill the 'criminals' too quickly.


Like, Who are we to talk?

We make sure a death row criminal will not commit suicide and we use clean needles to put them to death?

--------------------

Let's just hope no moron flies a plane into the mosque when it's finished.:rolleyes:

[lizbud]

--------------------

Let's just hope no moron flies a plane into the mosque when it's finished.:rolleyes:



When first reading about the intention to build there, I thought to myself,
how long after it's built will someone wait to blow it up? Not long, I'll bet.

[RICHARD]

Here's my view of the whole thing?

The morons that pulled off 9/11 were looking to send message to the U.S.A.

The week before 9/11 there was a short piece on the tube and in the paper about some Whack Job D Bags who blew up these huge stone "idols" in the Middle East, because they had outlawed the worship of any other god besides allah.

Hokay......THAT makes sense!:eek::rolleyes:

------------------

They assasinate a cat name Massoud? Then decide to take a dump in New York and Washington.


And we stood up and said "Let's Roll...."

We rolled, but we measured a response to the group of people that only listen when you knock them down, stand over them, punch them very hard in the kisser then whisper into their ear, "Dude DO NOT MESS WITH ME AGAIN. I will come back and go berserker on your sorry arse. Understand?"

Naw, we just go visit and toss up some rules, very much like the game we played in SE Asia in the 60's. We didn't lose, We just stopped playing.

Had we dealt with the FWs with the same kind of predjudice that 19 guys used on 9/11 or all the times when we have to, and in a sense still do, put up with some scumbags that catch up with a innocent aide worker or innocent bystander and chop THEIR heads off?

We would be the baddest Mama Jammers And Still The Reiging World Champions on the face of the planet.

Noboby be asking to build no mosque or any of that nonsense in my or your 'hood. Seriously, Get the ---- out of here before I slap your stupid head.


We just stand around tolerant, and all the while Three Bin Salad and Joe Bin Momma kinda smirk and think to themselves, "Look at these -------, We wouldn't put up with that ---- back home."

They woke us up and when they saw they cannot win every battle?

The come back to town and try to make us believe that this corrupt idea will promote understanding between the east and west?

I do have a bridge in Brooklyn, cheap....



---------------------

We allow this because that's the way were are - tolerant to the point of being vulnerable....Loving the freedom of religion, speech and walking around with our heads up our posteriors.

My mom had a saying for the people she thought were so nice and well meaning that they would fall for any kind of scam....

XXXXX is so nice, that he/she doesn't serve any purpose!

Sometimes I think that of the people who run the country.

They are afraid to comment or act on any info, or haven't the guts to pull aside a soldier who is acting the fool and deter him from shooting up an army base....Nope, instead we are worried about his jack hole getting the paycheck the Army owes him AFTER he goes off his rocker.

Moron.

--------------------------

No, no faceplant for this kid, the sound you hear is of me banging my head on the door jamb. UGH.

[Bonny]

The culture and the 'government' are way influenced with the tenets of the religion.

Where else on the planet would the people in charge let a 'court of law' sentence people to be killed with rocks.

Someone posted the line about the people who were doing the rock tossing not use big rocks because it would kill the 'criminals' too quickly.


Like, Who are we to talk?

We make sure a death row criminal will not commit suicide and we use clean needles to put them to death?

--------------------

Let's just hope no moron flies a plane into the mosque when it's finished.:rolleyes:

Geez Richard lets not give anyone any crazy ideas now. :eek: Put on a helmet when you bang your head that way you won't hurt it. :D

[RICHARD]

Geez Richard lets not give anyone any crazy ideas now. :eek: Put on a helmet when you bang your head that way you won't hurt it. :D

Too late.:D;)

[RICHARD]

Just saw some interview on the K Olbermann show.

(This dude is pretty funny...)

And I thought about THIS......

You are free to worship any god you want.

BUT, all the 'rules' do not mention anything about zoning laws.

so, draw them up and 'zone' them out.;)

[lizbud]

The Islamic group behind this idea to build this cultual center say
they wish to promote good will between Americans & the Islamic community.
If they want to do a better job of it, they should change the location.
I think most people would be surprised & impressed by changing the location
instead of just insisting on their "right" to build where they want.


Do they have a constitutional right to build it, yes. Is it a good idea to
forge ahead with their plans, no matter what the people of NY feel about
it? No, it's sure to harm their own stated goals of improving relations &
understanding between Islam & America.

[RICHARD]

Do they have a constitutional right to build it, yes. Is it a good idea to
forge ahead with their plans, no matter what the people of NY feel about
it? No, it's sure to harm their own stated goals of improving relations &
understanding between Islam & America.

I think they have the right to practice a religion.

But, I think that building and zoning laws are local laws.

[Lady's Human]

Building and zoning are local laws, however, the right to freedom from government interference in practicing one's religion overrides zoning laws. They cannot simply state "No mosques in X radius around the WTC site"

[RICHARD]

They cannot simply state "No mosques in X radius around the WTC site"

Oh, thanks, I really suck at algebra......:confused::(

[lizbud]

Building and zoning are local laws, however, the right to freedom from government interference in practicing one's religion overrides zoning laws. They cannot simply state "No mosques in X radius around the WTC site"


Not saying that NY should do that, but it would make an interesting
case in court. All cities have zoning laws that forbid specific tyes of buildings
or businesses from certain areas of the city. Banning them from building in
a specific area, does not infringe on their right to build & worship(whatever)
in another location.

[Lady's Human]

Not saying that NY should do that, but it would make an interesting
case in court. All cities have zoning laws that forbid specific tyes of buildings
or businesses from certain areas of the city. Banning them from building in
a specific area, does not infringe on their right to build & worship(whatever)
in another location.

Yes, but a change in zoning laws at this point would be a blatant violation of the first amendment.

Had the ordinance been in place prior to their purchase of the property, it would be different.

[wombat2u2004]

[QUOTE=Medusa;2289272] They say that it should promote compassion and understanding and should build a bridge between their culture and ours./QUOTE]

Ah right.
So who is going to be stupid enough to believe them ????
Not me. ;)

[Lady's Human]

[QUOTE=Medusa;2289272] They say that it should promote compassion and understanding and should build a bridge between their culture and ours./QUOTE]

Ah right.
So who is going to be stupid enough to believe them ????
Not me. ;)

You're halfway around the world. How, exactly does this affect you at all?

[wombat2u2004]

[QUOTE=wombat2u2004;2290022]

You're halfway around the world. How, exactly does this affect you at all?

It doesn't..........but you know, just like you, I have freedom of speech.

[lizbud]

It doesn't personally affect me either, I live in Indiana, but I also have a opinion about it.

[Lady's Human]

On a Constitutional basis it affects everyone in the United States. You know, that old, useless document written by a bunch of dead rich white guys?

Being that this is largely a constitutional issue, and we already know Wom thinks of our Constitution as an impediment to running a country the right way, his opinion is pretty much redundant.

BTW, Wom, nice mosques y'all have down there in Oz. Doing anything about them? After all, the only goal of Islam is a worldwide theocracy under the Caliphate.

http://www.visitmelbourne.com/displayobject.cfm/objectid.000AFCBE-A53D-1DC8-A65280C476A9046C/

[smokey the elder]

[dons fireproof undies]

I just find the level of Islamophobia being manifested disturbing, although it appears that I am in the minority here. It's demonizing a religion/culture. It smells too much like the scrutiny given Germans during WWI, and the internment of Nisei in WWII. Near the WTC site is not the only places where mosques are being protested. None of those places were bombed by Islamist [emphasis mine] terrorists on 9/11 or any other time.

There is an unfortunate tendency in American history for there to be "undesirables", be it the newly-emancipated slaves; the Irish immigrants after the potato famine; the Chinese railway workers; the Germans in WWI; the Japanese-Americans in WWII; the Hispanics and Middle Eastern immigrants (legal or otherwise) now.

IMO, I see a ton of moral relativism in this whole debate. "They won't let Christians build a church in Mecca". Does that make a lesser wrong any less wrong? (Did that even make sense?)

[Cataholic]

Building and zoning are local laws, however, the right to freedom from government interference in practicing one's religion overrides zoning laws. They cannot simply state "No mosques in X radius around the WTC site"

Actually, I think it is better stated that building and zoning laws and the right to practice one's religion have competing interest. One doesn't override the other, unless the building/zoning code is expressly prohibiting something granted to someone by the US Constitution.

It could be, conceivably, legally permissible to say, "no mosques in X radius" if there were an overriding governmental interest to protect or assert.

[Lady's Human]

Actually, I think it is better stated that building and zoning laws and the right to practice one's religion have competing interest. One doesn't override the other, unless the building/zoning code is expressly prohibiting something granted to someone by the US Constitution.

It could be, conceivably, legally permissible to say, "no mosques in X radius" if there were an overriding governmental interest to protect or assert.

Granted. However, to do so at this point would be a very, very weak argument constitutionally. Not only would you be treading on the first amendment, it could also be very, very easily argued as a violation of the constitution's bar against ex post facto laws. (granted, that's a ban on criminal law, but given the creep seen with the interstate trade clause, I don't think it's a stretch)

To even have a snowball's chance in hades of standing up, the ordinance would have to be worded to eliminate the possibility of ANY religious structure within X radius, and then the howling would really begin.

[Bonny]

I know lets take up a collection & buy that furture Mosque land near ground zero. Do you think they would sell it for the right price? Really has anyone thought about doing this?

[Catty1]

smokey, you may have a point...everyone follow Newt here:

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/7dcefc74-0316-4f5e-8f93-854d02bf3f90.jpg

[Lady's Human]

Other than the fact that that's a wildly inaccurate, inflammatory cartoon which typifies the modern press, what's your point?

[wombat2u2004]

"On a Constitutional basis it affects everyone in the United States. You know, that old, useless document written by a bunch of dead rich white guys?"

You mean the document that has in the last 50 years opened up a huge Pandora's box ???

"Being that this is largely a constitutional issue, and we already know Wom thinks of our Constitution as an impediment to running a country the right way, his opinion is pretty much redundant."

Why does it make my opinion redundant ???? Enough people who share my opinion could only change things for the better.
You know, you buy a McHeadache Shake from McDonalds and you get enough headaches, you don't buy the shakes anymore.

"BTW, Wom, nice mosques y'all have down there in Oz. Doing anything about them?"

Yep. There have been many Development Applications for the building of mosques within areas where public opinion against them has been high.
You see, our Consitution allows Freedom of Religion, but the public will not allow those religions to simply make fools of us by using our own existing laws against us...like your laws do.

"After all, the only goal of Islam is a worldwide theocracy under the Caliphate."

Glad to see that thought had crossed your mind. And the sooner you wake up to the fact that Islam is having a big party in your country, the sooner something may be done.

[wombat2u2004]

I know lets take up a collection & buy that furture Mosque land near ground zero. Do you think they would sell it for the right price? Really has anyone thought about doing this?

They ain't gonna sell it to you sweety....at any price.
They've moved in, and it looks like they are going to stay.
Save your money up. You never know, you may need it one day for the
"Lets buy the land back from the Japanese who want to build that temple at Pearl Harbor fund" ;)

[Karen]

By whose estimation is Islam having a "big party" in our country? They are still a vastly outnumbered minority, and most are peace-loving folks.

[wombat2u2004]

and most are peace-loving folks.

Source ??? Or is that just your opinion ????

[Karen]

That is my opinion, based on Popcornbird, several other people I know both in person and online, and any women in headscarves I have ever had a chance to talk to.

Now will you answer my question to you?

[wombat2u2004]

Sure.

"By whose estimation is Islam having a "big party" in our country?"
Mine.

And a minority ???
That will change.

My sources ???
Heaps...everywhere I go I see what is happening on a lesser scale than in your country.
We have a beach in Sydney in a suburb that is mostly muslim. White women in that suburb are too frightened to go to that beach wearing bikinis, because they get spat on and called whores by muslim men.
There is another agenda here......and you can listen to all the Popcornbirds you like, it's your choice.
Me ??? Well I guess I see the light, which is further evidenced by the fact that I don't see any so called moderate Popcornbirds condemning such a blatant insult to their host country as building a mosque on a site as sacred as WTC.
Go have a read The Danger Within: Militant Islam in America http://www.danielpipes.org/77/the-danger-within-militant-islam-in-america

[Medusa]

As I see it, it's a matter of sensitivity and not legality. Why must Americans, and families of victims of 9/11 in particular, be sensitive to the wishes of Muslims, whether they are peace loving Muslims or not? Why aren't the Muslims who are so insistent on building the mosque there showing sensitivity to the 9/11 victims' families? Why did the imam say that the mosque must be built there? WHY? Why is it so important to them that it be built there when there are already over 100 mosques in NYC? I've yet to hear anyone question their legality to do so. It's legal; we know. Now that that's out of the way, why must they build there and why must those who object to their building there be labeled as anti anything other than the building of the mosque?

[wombat2u2004]

As I see it, it's a matter of sensitivity and not legality. Why must Americans, and families of victims of 9/11 in particular, be sensitive to the wishes of Muslims, whether they are peace loving Muslims or not? Why aren't the Muslims who are so insistent on building the mosque there showing sensitivity to the 9/11 victim's families? Why did the imam say that the mosque must be built there? WHY? Why is it so important to them that it be built there when there are already over 100 mosques in NYC? I've yet to hear anyone question their legality to do so. It's legal; we know. Now that that's out of the way, why must they build there and why must those who object to their building there be labeled as anti anything other the building of the mosque?

Exactly.
To hell with the moral argument, that's just another Western perversion.

[Bonny]

Once again this is not about hate. It is about common sense & few people seem to have it. It is caring about what we hold dear our Freedom which is not free. We aren't going to forget 911 it was an attack on our country & our freedom. It can happen again too. What about the aid workers in Afghanistan? The Taliban claimed the aid workers were coverting Muslims to Christianity without any proof & killed them all. Now that is hate.

One of the aid workers was related to a friend of mine. He was a dentist. Here is an example of how the men rule in Islam. In a village a warlord in a small village would not allow the dentist to examine his wife's teeth & there were negotiations about how he would perform the exams & how she would keep her face covered during the work. The dental work was done & then the other women in the village were allowed to have their teeth examined. It was one of the dentists greatest accomplishments. He was offered protection by the warlord but it was not enough he was killed. :(

[wombat2u2004]

It is caring about what we hold dear our Freedom

OMG....BONNY !!!!!!
How can you be so BLATANTLY RASCIST !!!!!!
We need to get back to basics........a fuedal system would be good. The sooner America is Islamised, the better. :p

[Bonny]

Wombat, The world is getting smaller. We either stand up for freedom or run with our tail tucked in.

[wombat2u2004]

Wombat, The world is getting smaller. We either stand up for freedom or run with our tail tucked in.

Good idea Bonny.
I think we should get some of our moderates to go see the imams and explain the situation to them.
They could say "Look, no disrespect is intended here, but there are some people who don't like some of your ideas. We know that our constitution protects almost everything you do, but could you please see it within your hearts to at least reconsider the relocation of the mosque ???"

I think that'll work.
We have some experts on Constitutional laws right here on this forum...perhaps they should try it.

[wombat2u2004]

The Taliban claimed the aid workers were coverting Muslims to Christianity without any proof & killed them all. Now that is hate.

Damn !!! What can we label that as ???? Do they have a word in Arabic that equals "Racist" ???

[RICHARD]

If it makes anyone feel better?

The 100 million dollar project has a total of 28,500 dollars promised so far.
They do not have an architect or any of the other support people needed to START the project.


Now? I really hope the do build it because some of us are going to look back at this thread in a fews months and laugh?;)

[Bonny]

Richard, Your good friend Nancy P. will come up with the rest of the money. Nancy will dig her heels in & go for it. :eek:

[RICHARD]

Richard, Your good friend Nancy P. will come up with the rest of the money. Nancy will dig her heels in & go for it. :eek:

Is she going to "gin it up"?:D;)

the saddest part, she speaks like she believes it. She's like the teetering g-ma that people leave alone because if you say something to her the blood pressure goes and she starts to scream at you?:eek:

[Lady's Human]

What's really amusing about this whole issue is that voters in Manhattan, who would be the ones living next to the mosque, are in favor of it, according to a Qiuinnipiac University poll:

Opinions about the proposed mosque range from 46 - 36 percent support among Manhattan voters

What's driving the controversy? Ad revenue for the Media. Yet another created crisis pouring advertising money into their coffers.

[Miss Z]

[dons fireproof undies]

I just find the level of Islamophobia being manifested disturbing, although it appears that I am in the minority here. It's demonizing a religion/culture. It smells too much like the scrutiny given Germans during WWI, and the internment of Nisei in WWII. Near the WTC site is not the only places where mosques are being protested. None of those places were bombed by Islamist [emphasis mine] terrorists on 9/11 or any other time.

IMO, I see a ton of moral relativism in this whole debate. "They won't let Christians build a church in Mecca". Does that make a lesser wrong any less wrong? (Did that even make sense?)

Totally agreed and thanks for putting that so eloquently.

What I find disturbing is the phrase I've seen a few times, 'between Islam and America', implying them as separate. Surely by that very first amendment afore mentioned, that should not be the case.

It's a classic case of a lack of education in many respects - I often find that people who seem to know so much about the cruelties and injustices of Islam don't know any people of that faith who might be able to give them a new perspective.

And as for a source about Muslims being a peace-loving people, go to an Arabic country, and see how many greet you with 'salam'.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Well, good ole Nancy P wants everyone who opposes the building of the mosque to be investigated. Why not investigate where they are getting the money to build that thing? I've heard they don't have enough money to even start it yet. I bet there will be some, um, donations from other countries flooding in.

By the way, I also heard there has been a Christian church trying to get permision to build near that area since 9/11. They keep getting denied. :love:

[kitten645]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZpT2Muxoo0

[RICHARD]

Nancy P has got to be the funniest person in Cah Lee Fuh Nee ah.

Again, she is a blithering idiot who seems to have spent way too much time
trying to keep up with the 'boys'. She has talked about people with conspiracy theories before.

Her interviews become more and more bizarre as time goes on.

--------

The problem with Islam is that there is no "Head" Iman, Well, I guess there really is one.

Ask David Bowie......;););););)

There is no one 'voice of reason'. every faction has their own way of looking at the religion and that shows when there are topics related to Islam.

No one can speak out about the IDIOTS who have hijacked the religion.

Everyone, as noted before, has an opinion and a rear end.

It's finding out which side is making the noise and trying to figure out if it makes sense.


There have not been enough people to speak out against a religion and the people that choose to hijack it.

----------

LOLOLOLOLOLOL,

Go to a border town here in the U.S. and all the people are really friendly and tell you "Vaya Con Dios". It's the guys that are running the drugs,kidnapping and executing people that are the heathens, Pay no attention to them and you will be o.k.

It's not the natives, it's being naive.

My rose colored glasses are really cheap, I'd hate to invest a ton of money in a pair and lose them while being bound and gagged by some Narcoterrorist while I am on vacation in THEIR backyard.:rolleyes:

[Puckstop31]

Totally agreed and thanks for putting that so eloquently.

What I find disturbing is the phrase I've seen a few times, 'between Islam and America', implying them as separate. Surely by that very first amendment afore mentioned, that should not be the case.

It's a classic case of a lack of education in many respects - I often find that people who seem to know so much about the cruelties and injustices of Islam don't know any people of that faith who might be able to give them a new perspective.

And as for a source about Muslims being a peace-loving people, go to an Arabic country, and see how many greet you with 'salam'.

I agree 100% on the right to worship as one chooses. I also could care less about them building a mosque where they want to. Its just a building. The church is the people, not the building. What I care about is how the people of a certain church behave.

But on a similar line of thought... Where I see the trouble happening is when people of a certain religious group want a set of laws that are different from the country they choose to live in. I am not 100% up to speed on what is going on in the UK with this right now... But I do recall seeing something about a judge allowing 'certain aspects' of sharia law to apply to muslim groups in the UK. Any comment on that Zara?

Not picking on you or anything, I just know you have a soild brain up there and you live in the UK. :)

[Miss Z]

But on a similar line of thought... Where I see the trouble happening is when people of a certain religious group want a set of laws that are different from the country they choose to live in. I am not 100% up to speed on what is going on in the UK with this right now... But I do recall seeing something about a judge allowing 'certain aspects' of sharia law to apply to muslim groups in the UK. Any comment on that Zara?

Not picking on you or anything, I just know you have a soild brain up there and you live in the UK. :)

I'll be honest and say I wasn't aware of that case and so I looked it up. I must say I'm quite surprised at Lord Phil.

Personally, I don't think much of what was suggested would ever get off the ground, apparently we do have a Sharia Council (who knew? :p) but I've never heard of their involvement in anything. We have Equal Rights Opportunities groups that extend to ridiculous levels over here and by gawd would they kick up a stink.

The United Kingdom of Great Softies hate offending anyone and I can see far too many pitfalls for the PC Brigade to pursue that one. Particularly in our current political climate, we have more pressing matters.

My high school was slap-bang in the middle of an Islamic community and after being fortunate enough to speak with the MP and former Justice Secretary Jack Straw, I discovered a few interesting things about how 'strict' Islamic communities have been in that area in former years. Going back 20, 30 years perhaps, the community was far more Westernised, now? Communities are rekindling some of the traditional Islamic ways of living. It has A LOT to do with Western presence in the Middle East, but that's probably a story best saved for another time since it'll cause no end of trouble here.

I agree that a country's laws imposed by those we chose to elect should be abided by everyone within its shores regardless of their personal upbringings and background and opinions. I don't believe that the problem of unruly ethnics over here is half as bad as some of our propaganda makes out. There'll always be another hate preacher no matter how many times we chuck the last one out, but as for 'Islamic communities being slowly reeled in', as I once read in one paper? Piffle.

As is often the case in many aspects of life, there's always some nutjob who ruins it for everyone. ;)



LOLOLOLOLOLOL,

Go to a border town here in the U.S. and all the people are really friendly and tell you "Vaya Con Dios". It's the guys that are running the drugs,kidnapping and executing people that are the heathens, Pay no attention to them and you will be o.k.

It's not the natives, it's being naive.


My rose colored glasses are really cheap, I'd hate to invest a ton of money in a pair and lose them while being bound and gagged by some Narcoterrorist while I am on vacation in THEIR backyard.:rolleyes:


Eh, OK.

Fortunately, then, naïveté has allowed me get out and to ask the people, whom the news in my country spoonfeeds me negativity about, what their take on it all is, rather than relying on the belief that I know everything about everybody cos-I-saws-it-ons-the-tv.

I've been called a crazy white girl once, I grant you, but as yet, I've not been 'terrorised'. :p :rolleyes:

In a nutshell, that is my point on education, which I posted in another thread.

[RICHARD]

New York is a long way from El Lay so I really should not have a problem with it, but I was thinking about the situation and would like to 'localize' it with a scenario that may be little similar to what is going on with this topic.

Yes, It's a scenario, but hang with the topic? It's morbid curiosity that makes me ask and I just want to see if it makes anyone think differently?

------------------------------

Remember, this is a "what if?"

Who are you? You are married with two kids of your own, you SO has brought her two into the family - they are two boys and two girls from 5-14.

--------------

The first problem?

During a serious family meeting you are told that one of your relatives has molested another family member. Because of the time lapse, there is no way to make this person responsible for what they did. When the family member is confronted with the story, they begin to yell, scream and accuse you of lying and not taking any responsibility for their supposed actions. The healing begins but everyone has circled the wagons for whichever side you are on, and there is definite animosity between the two.

-----------------------------

You live in a neighborhood for years and know ALL the neighbors.

An empty lot across the street is being developed into a complex with six apartments in it. When you run into the neighbor who owns the land you
chat and find out that he has sold it to a group that is doing the building.


You meet the NEW owner and he/they tell you that four of the units will be used as 'monthly rentals' to people who are a little down on their luck.

The building is finished and you begin to suspect the rentals are being used by men and women who are fresh out of prison/jail as temp shelters until they get on their feet. Your gut is correct and later find out that there are some child molesters in the mix in addition to the parolees.

What do you do?

Are you satisfied that they have paid their dues to society and now have the right to live where they want?

Are you comfortable with your children playing in the street or your front yard?

Are you trusting that your local PD can and will be there to protect you and your family should you need them?

Are you mad that the landlord lied to you about renting these units monthly to people that may fall back into their life of crime?

Are you comfortable with the laws that will allow CMs to live in the same area with your family?

------------------

I know it's a stretch between a scenario and the mosque/community center in NY, I do understand the laws/rules and the right to worship in the U.S.

I just want to see if that scenario would make anyone on the board see why the New Yorkers might be a little skittish, no matter how this CC/mosque presented to them.


Take a minute and talk amongst yourselves?;)

[RICHARD]

http://www.newser.com/story/98536/local-strippers-totally-ok-with-ground-zero-mosque.html

Now, If Ginger, Cinnamon, Jade, Diamond, Montana, Shiloh, Silk, Red, Chanel and Lexus say that they are o.k. with it?:eek::D;)

[wombat2u2004]

http://www.newser.com/story/98536/local-strippers-totally-ok-with-ground-zero-mosque.html

Now, If Ginger, Cinnamon, Jade, Diamond, Montana, Shiloh, Silk, Red, Chanel and Lexus say that they are o.k. with it?:eek::D;)

Are they still taking dollar notes tucked into their garters ??? Or has it risen to 20 dollar notes now ???? :p

[wombat2u2004]

What's really amusing about this whole issue is that voters in Manhattan, who would be the ones living next to the mosque, are in favor of it, according to a Qiuinnipiac University poll:

Opinions about the proposed mosque range from 46 - 36 percent support among Manhattan voters

What's driving the controversy? Ad revenue for the Media. Yet another created crisis pouring advertising money into their coffers.

So....exactly where did you source that information ??? The media ??? Or did you personally count the votes ???

[Lady's Human]

So....exactly where did you source that information ??? The media ??? Or did you personally count the votes ???

Quinnipiac University polling data, which is easily available online.

The comment "Quinnipiac University Poll" comment should have been a hint..........

[wombat2u2004]

Quinnipiac University polling data, which is easily available online.

The comment "Quinnipiac University Poll" comment should have been a hint..........

Ok, so it's second or third hand information already.
What I'm saying is....you believe what someone else has written.

[Karen]

What, you do not believe poll results ever? Maybe you have never heard of Quinnipiac University, but it's a well-known and reputable school ...

[Lady's Human]

1) Quinnipiac publishes their raw data.

2) They have a very, very good reputation for their political polling and analysis.

Everything you read is something someone else has written, unless you're reading your own writing, which would be pretty damned boring after a while.

[wombat2u2004]

Listen up LH.
You can read and trust and believe whatever you like.
And so can I.
Whatever I post, you don't agree with anyway. And I end up being branded a racist, hateful and a bigot, and other words that are invented because I don't agree with some peoples opinions......k ????
So if you want to argue about politics, religion, racism, building permits or mowing the lawn.....go argue with someone else.
Really.....I'm not interested any more.

[Lady's Human]

Really.....I'm not interested any more.

For someone who's not interested you certainly make a lot of posts about US politics.

If you're not interested.........


Don't POST!

[wombat2u2004]

For someone who's not interested you certainly make a lot of posts about US politics.

If you're not interested.........


Don't POST!

Interested or not....I have that right.
You also have the right NOT to read my posts.
Do you agree to disagree with this to ????

[blue]

Interested or not....I have that right.
You also have the right NOT to read my posts.
Do you agree to disagree with this to ????

I thought you didnt believe in rights?

EDIT: Or are you too used to being the one having the Right because you have the gun? Is that why you so dislike Americans, because we have the Right to defend ourselves from the Tyrannical advance of our Government?

[wombat2u2004]

I thought you didnt believe in rights?

????????? Have I ever said that ???

"Or are you too used to being the one having the Right because you have the gun?"

I have a gun ????

"Is that why you so dislike Americans ???"

I dislike Americans ???

Can I have your sources please ?????

[blue]

Allow me to respond and to correct your posting ineptitude in the same post.


I thought you didnt believe in rights?


????????? Have I ever said that ???

You have, you said...


Too bad.

Nuff said.


"Or are you too used to being the one having the Right because you have the gun?"


I have a gun ????

What kind of bad a$$ soldier would you have been without a firearm?


"Is that why you so dislike Americans ???"


I dislike Americans ???

You havent shown us any love, in fact you disrespect us more often then not.


Can I have your sources please ?????

Search your own posts. Those are my sources.

[wombat2u2004]

"Allow me to respond and to correct your posting ineptitude in the same post."

Thankyou Blue, I'm forever in your debt. I'm so impressed with your skillful handling of forum messages, must have taken years for you to master that.

"What kind of bad a$$ soldier would you have been without a firearm?"

Am I a bad a$$ soldier ???? Or is that just another of your assumptions ???
(Assuming seems to be your forte)

"You havent shown us any love, in fact you disrespect us more often then not."
(Allow me to correct your spelling.....THAN, not THEN. Haven't, not havent.)

Who is US ???? I hope US doesn't include you Blue.....LOLOLOL.
I'm sure there are a great deal of posts that I have made to others that would fit that category. But you ??? Nawww...I'm not really into that sort of thing....sorry.

Disrespect ???? Where ??? Where have I disrespected you or yours ???
Show me.
All I have done is comment on your Bill of Rights.
What's wrong ???? Can't you handle criticism of your system ??? Do you really think your system is above that ??? I believe YOU think you are above that.
I have an opinion, I have the right to post my opinion, and if you don't like that, then tough luck for you. There's no disrespect for Americans.


"Search your own posts. Those are my sources."

Then I don't believe you have any sources. I know exactly what I have written in my posts, and furthermore, I have many many American friends both on this forum and off it.
I'm asking you again....."What is the source you have used to accuse me of not liking Americans ??"

[moosmom]

Boy is THIS a heated thread!! I will only say that I am totally against a Mosque near GZ. It shows total disrespect for all the people killed in the 911 tragedy. Sort of like flipping the victims off. NYC is a HUGE place. Surely they can find some place AWAY from GZ.

[Bonny]

moosmom, I agree with you 100% ;):):D

They should poll all of America. The other night Tom Brokaw mentioned 67% against it. He is part of our so called lying the media go figure?!?!?!

[wombat2u2004]

Boy is THIS a heated thread!! I will only say that I am totally against a Mosque near GZ. It shows total disrespect for all the people killed in the 911 tragedy. Sort of like flipping the victims off. NYC is a HUGE place. Surely they can find some place AWAY from GZ.

I agree with you Donna. ;)

[wombat2u2004]

moosmom, I agree with you 100% ;):):D

They should poll all of America.

Make sure they do Alaska....there's one vote there that they could add to the list. :p

[Bonny]

Don't forget Hawaii & possibly Puerto Rico.

[Lady's Human]

moosmom, I agree with you 100% ;):):D

They should poll all of America. The other night Tom Brokaw mentioned 67% against it. He is part of our so called lying the media go figure?!?!?!

Why should they poll all of America?

Should they poll all of America when they want to build an amusement park near Gettysburg?

Should they poll all of America if they want to put a CVS in Faneuil Hall?

It's a local decision handled by a local body. There's no need for a national poll.

[pomtzu]

I agree - poll all of America. The 9/11 was an attack on all Americans, whether they lived anywhere near Ground Zero or not. Why shouldn't all Americans that were outraged by the attack, not be outraged by the desire to build that mosque where is planned. IMO - it's a slap in the face to everyone. There are plenty of other mosques in NYC, why another, and why at that particular location? I for one, truly hope, by some miracle, that it is never built there.

[RICHARD]

Proof that the Aussies do hate America.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/25/AR2010082507235.html?hpid=entnews

[Bonny]

Why should they poll all of America?

Should they poll all of America when they want to build an amusement park near Gettysburg?

Should they poll all of America if they want to put a CVS in Faneuil Hall?

It's a local decision handled by a local body. There's no need for a national poll.

We were all attacked on September 11th not just New York City. Is New York still a part of the Union of States? The Mosque is a slap in the face a dishonor to the people that died & to those that are still living. Yes, we should all be able to be part of a poll to show how Americans actually are feeling about this & maybe they will show some respect & the mosque can be built someplace else.

[Catty1]

http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm

Muslim Victims of September 11th Attack

Inna li-lahi wa inna li-layhi raja'un.

From Allah we come, and to Him is our return.

Thousands of innocent lives were lost on September 11, 2001, and our hearts and prayers go out to their families and loved ones. For several hundred of the victims of 9/11, grief and sorrow has been compounded by constant suspicion, bias, hatred, and attacks on the faith they hold dear.

Imagine being the family of Salman Hamdani. The 23-year-old New York City police cadet was a part-time ambulance driver, incoming medical student, and devout Muslim. When he disappeared on September 11, law enforcement officials came to his family, seeking him for questioning in relation to the terrorist attacks. They allegedly believed he was somehow involved. His whereabouts were undetermined for over six months, until his remains were finally identified. He was found near the North Tower, with his EMT medical bag beside him, presumably doing everything he could to help those in need. His family could finally rest, knowing that he died the hero they always knew him to be.

Or imagine being Baraheen Ashrafi, nine months pregnant with her second child. Her husband, Mohammad Chowdhury, was a waiter at Windows of the World restaurant, on the top floors of Tower One. The morning of September 11, they prayed salaat-l-fajr (the pre-dawn prayer) together, and he went off to work. She never saw him again. Their son, Farqad, was born 48 hours after the attacks -- one of the first 9/11 orphans to be born. In an interview with CTV Canada, she relates that in the months to follow, she mourned for her husband and endured the hostility of some ignorant people around her. "When they saw me ... I'm wearing a scarf. There is a hate look."

Or consider Rahma Salie, a passenger on American Airlines #11 that crashed into the North Tower. Rahma, a Muslim of Sri Lankan origin, was traveling with her husband Michael (a convert to Islam) to attend a friend's wedding in California. Rahma was 7 months pregnant with their first child. According to the Independent UK (October 11, 2001), Rahma's name was initially put on an FBI watch list, because her "Muslim-sounding" name was on the passenger manifest, and her travel patterns were similar to those of the hijackers (she was a computer consultant living in Boston). Although her name was eventually removed from the list, several of her family members were barred from taking flights to her memorial service. Her mother, Haleema, said, "I would like everyone to know that she was a Muslim, she is a Muslim and we are victims too, of this tragic incident.”

Partial List of Muslim 9/11 Victims:

Note: This list is as yet incomplete and unconfirmed. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims' ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos.

Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid

[Catty1]

The whole article is well worth reading.

http://www.islamfortoday.com/america09.htm


There are 5 million to 7 million Muslims in the United States. They make up between 10,000 and 20,000 members of the American military.

[Lady's Human]

There are several mosques within a 10 block radius of ground zero. Should they be shuttered?

[pomtzu]

There are several mosques within a 10 block radius of ground zero. Should they be shuttered?

Not at all, and they were probably there before 9/11. The people who are opposed to the location of a new one, are simply offended by the implication. It's as tho the Muslims are thumbing their nose at the masses, and showing the world, that they can get away with anything in any country that they please, even the mighty U.S.
So build another mosque if you must - just not in this sensitive location. An ecumenical gathering place would be more welcomed, than any mosque, church, temple, synagogue, or whatever.

[Grace]

Candace - thank you for your posts, #116 and 117.

I think we need reminding that people of all faiths were greatly impacted by 911.

[Lady's Human]

The Mosque in NYC probably won't happen at that location, as the Local Unions are against it. If you can't get the Ironworkers, Carpenters, and IBEW to lift a finger to build it, it's not going to happen.

That having been said, I am deeply disturbed by the opposition to this. If they can't build it because of their religion, which religion is the next target?

Are you going to ban churches in downtown OKC? After all, the perps there were 'Christian' terrorists.

[pomtzu]

So build another mosque if you must - just not in this sensitive location. An ecumenical gathering place would be more welcomed, than any mosque, church, temple, synagogue, or whatever.




I think we need reminding that people of all faiths were greatly impacted by 911.

Exactly, and that's why I think an ecumenical gathering place would be welcomed by all.

[pomtzu]

Are you going to ban churches in downtown OKC? After all, the perps there were 'Christian' terrorists.

And that was a 2-man show, not a huge conspiracy, years in the making, by a deranged leader of terrorists not even living in this country. I don't even equate the two. And is it known that McVey and Nichols were Christian? OKC was a tragedy of course, but can't compare in the enormity of the Twin Towers. Okay - everyone can slam me for that one if you will - but no disrespect was intended. Even the death of one person by any terrorist, is totally unacceptable and deplorable.
I am not singling out any religion, but personally feel that a neutral facility of some sort, would be appropriate and acceptable at the site where they want this mosque built. Simple as that..............

[Grace]

And is it known that McVey and Nichols were Christian?

About McVeigh - from an interview with TIME magazine, back in 2003 -


Time: Are you religious?

McVeigh: I was raised Catholic. I was confirmed Catholic (received the sacrament of confirmation). Through my military years, I sort of lost touch with the religion. I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs.

Time: Do you believe in God?

McVeigh: I do believe in a God, yes. But that's as far as I want to discuss. If I get too detailed on some things that are personal like that, it gives people an easier way [to] alienate themselves from me and that's all they are looking for now.


source (http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15532)

[Lady's Human]

Thanks for including the link, Grace.

People would be truly amazed at the number of "christian" terror and extremist groups which are alive and well within the borders of the United Sates.

[Grace]

Got this in the mail last evening. It might answer some questions - and raise more.

http://factcheck.org/2010/08/questions-about-the-ground-zero-mosque/

[Medusa]

Why does anything have to be built there at all? Perhaps a memorial to the victims and let it go at that. Any time religion enters into the equation, there are going to be disagreements.

[Karen]

Why does anything have to be built there at all? Perhaps a memorial to the victims and let it go at that. Any time religion enters into the equation, there are going to be disagreements.

Because it is valuable real estate in New York. It isn't AT Ground Zero, anyway, it's the sight of a big former Burlington Coat Factory building. NYC real estate is too valuable to sit empty ... something will be built there at some point.

[Medusa]

Because it is valuable real estate in New York. It isn't AT Ground Zero, anyway, it's the sight of a big former Burlington Coat Factory building. NYC real estate is too valuable to sit empty ... something will be built there at some point.

Yes, I know that it isn't AT GZ, Karen. My point is that if it's causing this much controversy, then perhaps the best solution would be to build nothing at all, valuable real estate or not.

[Lady's Human]

Yes, I know that it isn't AT GZ, Karen. My point is that if it's causing this much controversy, then perhaps the best solution would be to build nothing at all, valuable real estate or not.

That won't happen. Real estate in NYC is tremendously expensive, and the city gets large sums of money based on the value of the real estate. SOMETHING will be built there.

[pomtzu]

About McVeigh - from an interview with TIME magazine, back in 2003 -




source (http://www.ethicsdaily.com/news.php?viewStory=15532)

Touche. But I don't believe McVey was reciting The Lord's Prayer or singing How Great Thou Art, when the Federal Building came down.

[Grace]

So because he wasn't singing or dancing that makes him less bad?

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Well, since it's ok for the mosque to be built there, the St Nicholas church should be allowed to rebuild. It was in that area and destroyed on 9/11. They keep getting stonewalled when trying to get permits to rebuild. :(

[pomtzu]

So because he wasn't singing or dancing that makes him less bad?

Of course not, and that wasn't the point I was trying to make. He wasn't using his religion as justification for what he did, and I'm pretty certain that religion was the furthest thing from his mind when he planned and executed his dreadful act. The 9/11 terrorists and accomplices took joy in flaunting their religion and their praises to Allah as all of this transpired.

But all of what I have stated, is only my view of the issues as they stand at present. What becomes of the real estate in dispute, is something that remains to be seen. I am only one tiny drop in the sea of humanity, and my feelings and opinions will have absolutely no influence on the final decision. It's not my desire to impose my views on anyone - some people will agree with me, and some won't. They are only my opinions - no more and no less.

But I will never forget the attack and the hours that followed - friends of mine who had friends and loved ones that were scheduled to be in the vicinity of the Twin Towers that day. I'll never forget the absolute terror they went thru when they were unable to contact these people, and fearing that they were casualties as well. They lived a hell on earth that day, until they learned that their people were safe. To build a mosque so close to GZ, is to them, rubbing salt in their wounds, even tho they never actually lost anyone, and I have to say that I agree. :(

[blue]

Thank you Blue, I'm forever in your debt. I'm so impressed with your skillful handling of forum messages, must have taken years for you to master that.

Minutes at best to figure out that I needed to click the "Quote" button. Thank you for the compliment.


m I a bad a$$ soldier ???? Or is that just another of your assumptions ???
(Assuming seems to be your forte)

My assumptions are educated guesses from your posts. You havent corrected me in any way shape or form so Im going to run with the assumptions Ive made.


(Allow me to correct your spelling.....THAN, not THEN. Haven't, not havent.)

Thank you, unlike the easily Butt Hurt I dont get offended when someone is nice enough to correct my horrible spelling and/or punctuation.


Who is US ???? I hope US doesn't include you Blue.....LOLOLOL.
I'm sure there are a great deal of posts that I have made to others that would fit that category. But you ??? Nawww...I'm not really into that sort of thing....sorry.

US, is short for The United States of America. You know the place, its where Rights mean something and are protected.


Disrespect ???? Where ??? Where have I disrespected you or yours ???
Show me.
All I have done is comment on your Bill of Rights.
What's wrong ???? Can't you handle criticism of your system ??? Do you really think your system is above that ??? I believe YOU think you are above that.
I have an opinion, I have the right to post my opinion, and if you don't like that, then tough luck for you. There's no disrespect for Americans.

Commenting on and insulting our system are two different things. I do think our system, as it was laid out at its inception, is above yours and you continue to prove my point about it.

I have no problem with your opinion, I disagree with it but still I like your posts.


Then I don't believe you have any sources. I know exactly what I have written in my posts, and furthermore, I have many many American friends both on this forum and off it.
I'm asking you again....."What is the source you have used to accuse me of not liking Americans ??"

You are, and continue to be, my source. Believe what you want about it.

Unless of course, you are a figment of my imagination, if thats the case you are correct I dont have a source.

[wombat2u2004]

I agree - poll all of America. The 9/11 was an attack on all Americans, whether they lived anywhere near Ground Zero or not.

Now that's value for money.
Why shouldn't all America have a say ????

[Lady's Human]

Because all Americans aren't eligible to vote for the representatives on the Manhattan Zoning Board of appeals?

Because the entirety of the United States Citizenship should not be able to tell a private property owner what to do with a piece of real estate?

You can run 1,000 polls, but unless those polled have any voting rights in the area, the polls are meaningless.

[wombat2u2004]

Because all Americans aren't eligible to vote for the representatives on the Manhattan Zoning Board of appeals?

Because the entirety of the United States Citizenship should not be able to tell a private property owner what to do with a piece of real estate?

You can run 1,000 polls, but unless those polled have any voting rights in the area, the polls are meaningless.

That's a shame. That all of America can't have a say about something that affected the whole nation.

[blue]

That's a shame. That all of America can't have a say about something that affected the whole nation.

Sourced.

[Lady's Human]

Funny, no outcry over what the developers are doing with the rest of Manhattan.............

Should all of Manhattan remain frozen in time?

After all, the dust from those attacks went everywhere.

[wombat2u2004]

Proof that the Aussies do hate America.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/25/AR2010082507235.html?hpid=entnews

Hee hee....poor old Paul.
Go take a look at this one......in his younger days with his mate Strop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSITGixlMec