Buddha's Puppy Class - problem!

[monaliesa]

Ack...I'm pretty upset now...we took Buddha to his first puppy kindergarten class last night and we've got some problems with aggression it seems. He's a pit mix, but Pia (the trainer) says that he looks like he's at least 90% Pit....and that he doesn't act like a 14 week old puppy....he was more interested in following Pia around and sitting so he could get treats than he was in playing with other dogs...when he did go to play with the puppies...there were some growling incidents...and she says he has an aggressive stance...he stiffens up and puts his haunches forward....she said that its 'just the way he is' and that he's probably always going to be aggressive and to keep him in classes as long as possible...do MAAAAJOR socialization...she basically gave the impression that he has a lot of potential to be a dangerous dog....and since he came from the SPCA, he could have been bred from fighting dogs....and the way that they are...they're very non agressive to people...bred so that they can be pulled out of a fight and not ever bite the person...

the thing is...he's such a sweet little boy...he doesn't have any problems with people at all...and he isn't possessive at ALL with food or treats or toys....him and Riely eat and drink out of the same bowl ALL the time...at the same time even...he's never so much as growled at a dog in the pet store....he's always been fine on walks and stuff....it's just in the playing environment that he starts to get aggressive...she said that we should never take him to a dog park in an off leash environment....i'm so attached to him already and the thought that she thinks my little affectionate loving puppy could be dangerous and we might ultimately have to get rid of him is killing me...she said to get some freeze dried chicken...or some cheese...and POUR praise on him when he's good....because any scolding will make him worse...she made it sound like he's gonna kill Riely someday playing...

I feel like a burden in that class...like we're the one with the BAD dog that the other puppy parents are scared of....she made us stay after the class and gave us a big talking to...."i don't want to scare you...but he is acting like an adult dog...and he's only a 14week old puppy"....i mean...will we EVER be able to board him? or take him to playdays there?

she even told us that we might even want to tell people that he's a boxer mix...because of the stigma with pitt bulls....I had to stop myself from crying a couple times....

Has ANYONE had an experience like this? How has it turned out? ANY words of advice would help at this point...

this morning when i left....i was laying with him on the bed about to say goodbye...and I bursted out in tears...looking at him makes me sad...i love Buddha so much already...and now i feel like a dumbass crying at work....

Does this look like a killer to you?
http://img3.ranchoweb.com/images/monaliesa/cuteness.jpg

[wolf_Q]

Oh now, Buddha does not look like a killler....what a sweetheart! You will find quite a few pit bull lovers here. Here's my opinion...just an opinion....

I wouldn't take EVERYTHING the trainer says to heart. He's only been to one class! I have a siberian husky puppy, Nebo, that just graduated puppy kindergarten a few weeks ago. I had a few "incidents" with him. He supposedly bit another puppy but I didn't see exactly what happened. He had 2 dogs going after him while I was trying to pick him up. He got a bit rough a few times too. Other puppies got too rough too...it happens. He used to be quite aggressive when he was younger, but he's really getting better as he matures. He is friendly to other dogs, but will get not so friendly if they get near his food/toys. What kind of dog is Reily? It sounds like they get along very well, and that is good.

I really think your trainer needs to give you more of a chance. You will see a difference in him as he goes to the classes. There will be good days, and bad days...believe me. But stick with it, and give him all the socialization you can give him. I'd go through the Basic and Advanced classes with him too. I plan on doing that with my dog.

I think it is true that some dogs just do NOT get along with other dogs. Pit bulls really aren't known for their friendliness to other dogs, but that doesn't mean they *can't* be dog-friendly. It doesn't sound like your pup is that bad, and you can help him by socializing him with dogs. Good luck, and Buddha is adorable!! :)

[manda99]

What an adorable little boy you have there!

I agree w/ Wolf_Q when she says not to take everything to heart and to keep up w/ the class and socialization.

However, Pit Bulls are one of the breeds that can be dog agressive and by owning a pit mix you should be well aware of that. Being human agressive is something that's NOT natural so it's great that he loves people.
My pit, Smokey, isn't dog agressive - so far. I had him in puppy class at 10 weeks and he was just great and it helped SO much with being able to take him to the park and occassionaly let him off leash. (Only when the other dog owners are well aware of what can happen, but know Smokey and encourage me to let him off leash because he's such a sweety.)

What am I trying to say here?
Keep up w/ the classes & socialization but understand w/ this breed there is a chance you won't be able to let him off leash or take him where there are lots of strange dogs. It's important to note that sometimes dogs do not show their full aggression potential until 18 months of age.

Just be aware of your dog and those around you and you should be just fine.

Good luck!

P.S. PLEASE DON'T PASS HIM OFF AS A BOXER MIX!!
Don't be ashamed if he has some dog agression, it is natural. It's just how you handle it that will make the difference (But in general, unprovoked human aggression is NOT natural AT ALL for the "pit bull" breed)

[Corinna]

I agree one class can't give a long term sentence.
I also e-mailed Carrie she is an animal behaviorist in the UK . She was a reg. her before she got so busy , I hope she can give you some help.
I think puppies are rough players couse they are learning social skills. I have never had this in a puppy I just had chows that I rescued that had not been socialized I never could feel safely take them out in public. They were 3 and 5 years old when I got them . Did get so I could trust them with my 9 and 11 year old kids. I would get Budda around lots of other animals and be encourageing on proper play and stern on in proper play. Like sitting out a few mintues and allow oly watching of play. Time out type of thing. He has to learn to be tolerant of others. He may not like certain dogs. Merlin even does that some are just like people some you just don't like. He's a springer and thinks most dogs were put here for him to play with. Good luck and I do hope carrie can help you.

[monaliesa]

Wolf_Q - Riely is a terrier/lab mix...shes the most hyper dog ever...so quite often she instigates...we're not going to allow them to play rough at all anymore...no more growling for Buddha...if he growls he gets a small time out...http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/monaliesa/couch.jpg

Anna - Actually he's better off leash than Riely is...Riely doesn't listen at all and likes to run far ahead of us...there is a place where I live called Bair Island which is a 3 mile loop track....and its also a bird sancturary and one of the few places to let dogs off leash....Buddha didn't so much as bark at another dog....he stayed with us most of the time...a lot of the time when we saw another dog approaching we'd put them back on the collar till they passed...but some came up to him and he was perfectly fine...just stood there and sniffed them....but I don't think we'd take him to a dog park anyway...and I'm too paranoid about them running in the street and getting hit to let them off leash on a walk around the neighborhood...


I wouldn't try to pass Buddha off as a boxer mix...i mean LOOK at him...like anyone would be stupid enough to believe it anyway? I know Pits get a bad rap...and the I wanted to make sure that Buddha got every training class possible so that he WOULDN'T be one of those dogs you read about...Believe me...this boy will be in classes continuously for a LONG time...AND I'm taking him to Puppy Playtime every Sunday morning until he's too old...(24 weeks)....and hopefully by the time he's 5 months...he'll be behaved enough around other dogs to go for playdays at Planet Pooch....and get MORE used to being around dogs...

I think that Riely and him were playing too rough up until now...but they've never hurt each other...and we thought they were just kinda duking it out for dominance....the only other time I've heard him growl before last night was when he was playing with Riely...most of the time it's when Riely has him pinned on his back and he's just trying to get free...he's has a very good idea of when he's biting too hard....he can just nibble on my hands and not hurt me at all...

Pia said that if he growls in class...pick him up and take him outside...count to 10...and then bring him back in...not acting mad or anything...just teaching him that when he's too rough...he is removed from playing for a while...and we're gonna have to buy a squirt bottle too...redirect his attention if they start escalating...and bribe him with EXTRA yummy treats....the thing is...she said she doesnt have anything against pit bulls and that she actually owns one herself...but shes worried that he doesn't act like a 14 week old puppy...and that he's agressive...

[carrie]

As far as I can make it out you seem to have the right attitude here. You need to be aware of the potential problems this animal may bring and the most difficult part of that is to KEEP it at the forefront of your mind week after week.

My first concern would be a neurological problem. Has a vet tested his reflex actions and his eyes? If not it would be worth a check up.

Secondly what makes this type of dog dangerous when things go wrong is not the fact that they become aggressive but the lack of warning that full scale aggression is about to happen. You do not get a chance to divert or avoid.

I would be very very concerned to have a fourteen week pup behaving like an adult. If he really is then he missing vital learning stages of his development and specialist training may be the order of the day. (I have come across three pups that really did not have any puppy behaviour-each one had been orphaned very early in life and raised to around 7-9weeks ( if I remember correctly one was 16 weeks) in isolation from other dogs.)

I suggest you ask another trainer for a second opinion on the pups behaviour and get a vet's opinion too. Also ask your trainer to be a little more specific in her concerns. What behaviours are missing? Why is the level or type of aggression unusual?

Let us know what they say and we will have a better idea of what we are really dealing with, good luck.

[monaliesa]

He hasn't been tested for anything yet, I've just been taking him for his shots and whatnot. Unfortunately the vet is only open on weekdays and I only have about one PTO day at the moment...I didn't know that his behavior wasn't normal until last night actually....I'll make a note though when I take him in to get his eyes and reflexes checked...

In regards to the 'no warning' stuff...Pia just said to not let the level of play get so amped up...not to let their blood pressure levels get too high....if they start to get more hyper to separate them....I honestly don't think that there will be a problem between him and Riely though...they actually seem to get along very well...they sleep together and share toys...they like to play tug together...and ball...I can tell he already thinks of her as the dominant dog in the house...

I'm not sure what stages she thinks is missing...from what I gather...I think that she means that his stance is more adult...and he's more concerned with going up to people and getting treats than he is with playing with other dogs...she said that he seems to get stiff when the puppies move too fast around him...and when he's under things like chairs and tables...

the thing is...he HAS been around other dogs...at least since 8 weeks...and he had his sister in the SPCA with him when we adopted him...(she looked more like a lab mix...not really like a pit at all)..the moment he was adopted he has been with Riely all the time...and we've taken him on walks...and over to friends houses with dogs...and the pet store at least once a week usually...he always meets at least 3 or 4 more dogs....and puppy playtime started last Sunday...there were 2 more dogs there...we're going to continue to take him to puppy playtime until he's too old (24 weeks)...

I'll have to ask her what behaviors are missing...she just specifically mentioned that he stiffens up when dogs move too fast around him...and that his stance is a certain way...and the growl....she just said it was obvious that he didn't act like the other puppies do...

we might have to put him in individual training...but it seems that his problem is only around other puppies...

It's just a shock when you think the world of this little adorable guy and someone basically tells you that you bought a dangerous dog...and i've already grown to love him so much...i keep bursting into tears today every time I think about him...

[monaliesa]

I noticed a couple things about Buddha...he barely ever barks...only really at dogs passing by the house from the screen door...because Riely does it...

and the times I've accidentally stepped on his tail or foot, etc...he has never yelped...I dont know if he just doesnt want to show weakness or what...

All the dogs we've met...he's been WAY better behaved than Riely...I guess because most of them have been older or bigger than him...he just stood there and let them sniff him...but he's fine...he's good in the pet store...even when the dogs approach him...he's curious...but he's never showed aggression...he was good during his first bath....didn't bark ONCE when we took him in the bathing room with all the other dogs getting baths...

it seems he's only aggressive with puppies so far...ones that move too fast around him...i think they put him on guard right away...because they're moving fast and he doesn't know whats going to happen...

[captain]

I have just picked up on this thread and am sorry I had not done so earlier.

I have had pit bulls, and mixed with them ..... and I believe only narrow minded people can state, with any dog not just a pit bull, that it has aggressive tendancies. I really do not think you have to worry. Understandably, my pit bull was a pure bred, but I have met others who are cross breeds, and they are the most loving animals you could ever meet

My pit, Abigail, NEVER barked at anyone - much like your Buddha - not even other dogs. She just sat and stared at them, chest out, wide stance - just staring. She had an incident when she was very young - about 9 weeks, when a Collie got out of its yard and rushed at her and I (I was walking her at the time). I grabbed her off the ground, and yelled at the dog. When I turned to head home, I noticed blood on my shirt, and saw that this Collie had bitten off the tip of her tail. SHE DID NOT MAKE ONE SOUND - even at the vet! So you standing on his tail and him not yelping is certainly not a sign of his not showing weakness. Pits are like that! Amazing.

Let me put your mind at ease abit more ..... I now own Dalmatians. My Male dally was the tornedo at puppy class - but earlier this year I took my new female dally to puppy class - and she growled at all the other puppies, tensed up when they ran around her, and hid under the chair and table, and was only interested in the trainer for food........ JUST LIKE BUDDHA

I think that you have such a happy home with yourself and Riley - keep up the training. We never let Abigail off lead with any other dogs other than our Doberman. Abigail was trained to an advanced level too, so you should really keep up with the training. Not only will it help put your mind at ease, but also those people around you who think ALL Pit Bulls are evil, aggressive animals. If you have control of Buddha, no-one else should worry.

He is beautiful .............. perserverance!

Good Luck and keep us posted

[monaliesa]

Oh thats sooooo nice to hear...you have no idea...

THANK YOU!!!

He will be going to LOTS of classes...I think he'll be okay...but if he can't behave himself eventually...I guess he'll just have to learn that he doesn't get to play with other dogs...

*sigh*...I'm so distracted today...I'm not getting any work done..

first the dog class and being so upset...then Jasons car broke down RIGHT after that class...we got home at like 10pm...all I had to eat was a piece of toast....

today I'm doing something i absolutely HATE...I just started getting mondo cramps...and the next 2 days are layoffs...

so basically...everything in my life has something wrong with it...my job...my little family...and my body...

this week sucks ass....thats all I have to say...

[mugsy]

Captain....so very well put!

[angelpuppy]

I posted to this thread a few days ago, but it seems my post is gone. Is there some reason it may have been removed???

[turner]

Deisel did the same thing when he was younger. We took him to puppy classes and he growled at the other puppies and did the stance! He is not aggressive in any way, shape or form. But he did need alot of training. I would get a second opinion, as 1 class can not determine what she is telling you!