Should Teachers Pay Be Linked To Student Grades

[lizbud]

Our city (public) schools test scores are the lowest ever. There
are a few great schools , but they are all private ones. This article is
about trying this method of measuring school teachers pay. I think it
sure wouldn't hurt to try.

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/23176131/detail.html

[pomtzu]

Seems it would be a good way to drive away good teachers and send them seeking employment in a more equitable school district.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Some kids just won't learn no matter how hard you try and teach them. One of my step sisters would not do her homework. I'd hate to think of some poor teacher getting penalized because my step sister was stubborn and dumb. :eek::love:

[Asiel]

I think it's a terrible idea. Why blame teachers and penalize them because some kids refuse to learn. I agree it would only serve to drive great teachers away for greener pastures. One can only do so much and if kids don't want to learn a teacher is up against a brick wall no matter what she/he does.

[IRescue452]

Noooooooooooo. That means teachers will be giving out the answers without actually teaching the kids how to get the answers themselves. It happened all the time in my high school where teachers would just go down the list and tell you the answers.

[Daisy and Delilah]

My sister is a teacher and I need to ask her what she thinks.

I think it is extremely unfair to the teachers. My sister practically kills herself every year to get her kids ready for tests. FCAT particularly. She loves doing it but I think it is wrong to punish a person that gets stuck with kids that can not learn or don't want to learn.
It's also a problem in schools with students that don't speak English. We have alot of kids here in Florida that don't speak English yet. It can be next to impossible for the teachers to teach those kids what they need to know.

In some classrooms that are predominately English challenged, I believe there are allowances made for those groups to a certain point. However, I'm not sure how it works if the majority of the kids do speak English. Do the non speaking kids bring down the averages of the classroom/school? Alot of questions for my sister.

[blue]

That means teachers will be giving out the answers

My first thought as well.

[Lady's Human]

Why do the teachers have to know what's on the test, beyond what the general subject areas are?

[Alysser]

I also think it's an awful idea to blame teachers, while there have been many in my school years that are bad and some were very recent - some of them were amazing people. They worked hard, even with the worst of kids. Some of those kids just didn't pass because they simply didn't care - not the teachers fault. They very often worked hard to try and teach them with after-school help, etc. to no avail. While, I've met bad teachers I still don't think it justified. But I will say also, they're some god-awful teachers out there. Some of their ways of teaching were not working, they knew it and did not care. They're just some that plainly hate kids, and some that have attitude problems and alot of things that just annoyed me. While, I've never suffered to badly from a teacher, I know some kids who did.

[king2005]

Ummmm why are the teachers at blame? Its most likely the parents faults. If your not going to help your kid with school or force them, then it YOUR OWN fault your kid is failing.

Parents need to learn to take control of their childrens actions & educations. My dad was on my case all the time when I was young. If I didn't do my homework I didn't get dinner until it was done. You only pull that stunt a few times & learn quickly to just do the work.

How many parents do NOTHING educational wise for their kids during the summer months? My folks would quiz me on random things to keep my brain working. I didn't do any homework during the summer months, but I did random math, spelling, & answered random questions my dad asked me.

I'm not the smartest person out there, but I'm FAR from being stupid like a lot of people I know & have met. Its terribly sad.

My biggest issue is math. My teachers were terrible with me. I was the one singled out all the time & was reminded that I was stupid. G-thanks. It got so bad that I cannot do basic math infront of people, I freeze up & panic. My friends know this so when we play board games they would just say the total on the dice for everyone, so I wouldn't feel stupid (which I'm not). Now when I go grocery shopping I can keep the growing/changing totals in my head just fine.

This is another issue I have with teachers, just because someone can't spell all the crazy long & weird scientific words doesn't mean they should fail when they know the darn answer & can apply the knowledge. I was one of the BEST students in grade 12 advanced Bio, & OAC Bio, but because I couldn't spell many of the crazy words I nearly failed the classes.. How the heck is that fair/right? I was TEACHING other students the stuff as I KNOW Bio like the back of my hand (well knew, lost some of it now as its been so many yrs).

opps, ranted.. I'll stop..

Teachers are a problem, but Parents are an even bigger issue.

[Nomilynn]

It doesn't seem like it is in the best interest of the students. Instead of helping the kids be the best they can be, it will be almost like each "smart" child is another point. I think it would end up creating a system where "smart" kids thrive and ones who don't "make the grade" fall through the cracks.

[blue]

THis may be the liquor talking or maybe the documentary Im watching but...

Maybe we should steer our education system away from getting every kid into college. Not every student is going to go to higher education so why waste money trying to get every snotty kid into college?

Here in the USA we could rebuild our workforce with the public education system. IF a kid has an aptitude for working with his hands it should be nurtured with programs and not stifled with courses geared to get them into a school they have no interest in attending.

[RICHARD]

I agree with the "vocational route" as far as school goes.
Some kids don't have the patience to sit in a chair all day and absorb the
lesson plan.

----------------

About the teachers giving the answers away?


T&F

A,B,C, D-None of the Above?

Write an essay......

The student STILL has to know the right thing to put on the paper?;):eek::D

[Marigold2]

I believe much of the problem starts in the womb. Young people having children while they abuse drugs, alcohol, cigarettes and or abusive lifestyles.
Babies born with little or no nutrition addicted to drugs or cigarettes at birth.
Love birth rate, low IQ because above mentioned items.
These women don’t care about their children. They are unable to take care of themselves and the child is the least of their concerns.
Some are in jail time and time again. The father is unknown or has 7 other kids with 6 other women.
The worst offenders are the ones who have who’s kids are mentally and sexually abused.
They never really stand a chance. It is sad beyond belief and oh so true.
Birth control, is the only answer I can think of. The only thing that will work 100%. Never having these poor kids in the first place is the kindest thing of all.
Our schools and our country are not able to help them and furthermore should not have to. Birth control, self control. If you make a kid you should be responsible for it but if you are in jail or addicted to drugs you don’t give a s&*t.

[lizbud]

This Editorial in the local paper really got me thinking about the
bleak outlook for many kids in this area. I have no school age childen
anymore, but I don't envy any of today's parents of school age kids.
I don't have any answers, but I do believe the love of learning should
be instilled by the parents before the children even go to school.


Our Opinion
IPS must find path to progress
Posted: April 14, 2010Comments

A discouraging new report makes clear that a culture of failure still is deeply entrenched in Indianapolis Public Schools.

A team of education consultants, hired by the state, found inept administrators, weak teachers and a central office staff that is more disruptive than helpful in 12 of IPS' worst-performing schools. The report could lead to a state takeover of as many as eight of the schools next year.


Whether the state Department of Education, the mayor's office or another entity could improve conditions at the schools is an open question. But it's obvious that the district's current approach is not working, despite sustained efforts by Superintendent Eugene White to improve academic performance and student behavior.

The consultants, employed by a firm called Cambridge Education, found massive deficiencies at five IPS high schools -- Arlington, Broad Ripple, Howe, Manual and Northwest. Numerous red flags also were raised about Donnan Middle School "For too long the school and the district have attributed low ISTEP scores to students' poor skill levels on entry and their challenging social circumstances," the evaluation team wrote of Donnan. "It is time to recognize the shortfalls in teaching that have led to the high levels of failure and to carry out a detailed examination of what students need and how instruction can best meet their needs."

Other schools fared better, but even at those sites evaluators found problems that should trigger significant reform. At Gambold Middle, for example, the team urged district administrators to "ensure the school is released from large numbers of initiatives and professional developments that detract from the school's core purpose of raising student achievement."

It's time to drop the old excuses about why so many schools within IPS are failing. It's not because of student poverty. At Gambold Middle, 85 percent of the students qualify for free or reduced-price meals. Yet, the principal is given high marks by evaluators and the school's overall performance is judged as fair. In contrast, at Donnon Middle, where 83 percent of students qualify for free or reduced-price meals, overall performance is rated as poor and administrators and teachers were given low marks. "A major barrier to student progress is that the school does not know how to improve," evaluators found.

The same could be said for much of IPS: It does not know how to improve. For the sake of this city and its children, a way forward must be found.

[moosmom]

Absolutely not. The students my best friend teaches would earn her no pay because they don't do their work, their parents could givbe a rat's patoot, so why should the teachers pay be linked to student grade.

If the kids can't make on their own brainpower, then they just don't get promoted to the next grade. That's like trying to bribe a teacher to do their already tedious, over worked job. How about Superintendent's or Principal's pay linked to the kids' grades???

[Puckstop31]

All I can say is.... The more I read and learn about today's public 'education' systems, the more I praise God for allowing us to be in the situation where we can home school Hannah.

Tanya and I look forward to teaching Hannah in a way that best suits her and not to some silly standard.

[Grace]

My youngest grandson is about to graduate from a public, magnet high school in Richmond, Virginia. I was sad when they moved there from Michigan, but now I'm delighted - for Evan's sake.

He has been in this school for 3 years. Every one of his senior classes is Advanced Placement - Latin, Calculus, Trig, even English. He's been accepted at the university of his choice, with a full tuition scholarship. He will start with junior year math classes - not freshmen.



I totally agree with blue -

IF a kid has an aptitude for working with his hands it should be nurtured with programs and not stifled with courses geared to get them into a school they have no interest in attending.

Back in the Dark Ages, when I was in high school, not everyone was expected to attend college. There were classes with focus on Industrial Arts and the like.

I have no answers for the problems in some public school systems. I think there is blame to be spread all around. Teachers, parents, you name it.

[cassiesmom]

I think it is wrong to punish a person that gets stuck with kids that can not learn or don't want to learn.
It's also a problem in schools with students that don't speak English.

My sister-in-law teaches middle school in a district where there are white, African American, Spanish-speaking and a growing population of immigrant Eastern European families. Some kids don't have a working grasp of English, but in middle school they don't receive transitional teaching in their primary language. Some kids have troubled home situations. Some kids haven't eaten anything before school; lunch will be their first meal of the day. There are a good number of kids who come to school not ready to work, for any number of reasons. I don't think the teacher should be penalized, but it's worth a look at what keeps kids from doing well and get them into breakfast programs, family counseling, language support or other areas they need so they can do well in school.

[Daisy and Delilah]

My sister is seriously opposed to this but she believes there are some instances where certain conditions are needed to excel in getting quality education for our children.

She said the comparisons are being made to workers in other fields. i.e. Police--should the policeman that doesn't stop a crime from being committed be given less pay?
Firemen--Should the fireman's pay be cut if there are fires they couldn't control?
Doctors--Should the doctor's be penalized if people are still sick under thier care?

It seems fair to me that other workers should be penalized if they aren't able to get the expected end results. If the teachers are solely responsible, according to some people, why not the other workers?

This responsibility should never be placed upon the teachers only. There are many more people that should be held accountable.

[Lady's Human]

Police don't prevent crime, they're the cleanup crew.

Same with firemen. Frequently their job is to mainly prevent the fire from spreading to other buildings, not to save the involved structure.


Electronic techs: I can't fix a machine, I could be removed/retrained

Drill Sergeants: Their Privates don't make the grade, they can be returned to their original units with their careers ended.

Instructors (In most of industry outside of a school system): The students don't learn the subject matter, they lose their job.

Managers: The function they are responsible for doesn't perform, they're on the street.

[Lady's Human]

I'm not saying that teachers should be strictly graded based on their students' performance, other things should be taken into account as well. However, they should not be immune to penalties, as they are in NYC's "rubber rooms".

[RICHARD]

I have seen kids that complain about parents not giving them 'limits' as far as rules, behavior and attitude go.

The kids want structure and the parents are too busy to give it.

So, that leaves teachers to work in the grey area that makes up in real life and education.

The parents complain about taxes-which pay for the schools.

They do not/refuse to teach their kids the basic rules of etiquette, respect and honor.

------------------


How's about a program that lowers the taxes for people who get their kids to graduate?

And the program for people who do not have kids?

Either donate time or money to the local school system?

Part of the problem with the student/teacher/parent triad is there is not enough pressure put on any group to make it work.

the answers are there-we just have to make people accountable for THEIR part of the problem.:eek::rolleyes:

[momoffuzzyfaces]

And the program for people who do not have kids?



Hey, I vote for that one!!! :D

[Miss Z]

Its most likely the parents faults. If your not going to help your kid with school or force them, then it YOUR OWN fault your kid is failing.



That could well be true, however I think a lot of it also depends on the classroom atmosphere. It's pretty hard for one student actually wanting to get on with work whilst everyone else is trying to make the teacher's life as difficult as possible. It's certainly true of the state system here that the bright kids get lost amongst the crowd.


Maybe we should steer our education system away from getting every kid into college. Not every student is going to go to higher education so why waste money trying to get every snotty kid into college?

You took the words right out of my mouth as far as the university system over here goes. We're a little country with a lot of people, and we simply don't have the places available to meet the government's quotas of having so many ethnic minority/dyslexic/autistic/deprived background students before academic potential and course suitability is even assessed.

I can't say I agree with the topic of the post, as I think teachers in failing schools deal with some horrendous situations that they really shouldn't have to deal with. Knives, physical violence, and just the other day I was reading about a teacher who was put through a trial on rape allegations (she was in fact stalked by three of her students, who then, with the whiff of compensation, decided to blame her when she gave them the cold shoulder.) However, I also don't think it's much worse than the millions of pounds poured into these schools to give them fancy new 'academy' names, and facilities that are usually graffiti'ed or burned down in due course. I don't know how to save the state system, but I don't believe in either of these methods.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

As a teacher, I have to say NO, I don't agree with this legislation. I don't really think people in "normal" jobs have a grasp on just how hard teachers work or how many hours they put in, or how much money they spend out of their own pockets to teach their students as best they can.

When I was teaching, I thought about my students a lot out of the classroom, and ways I could help them, not to mention all the school nights/conferences/meetings/grading/preparing lessons, etc. It is a LOT of work, and even if you try to reach every student there are parents who will completely blow you off, kids that come to school hungry, and many, many expectations you need to meet. As a teacher you can do everything within your power to help your students and it may work some or even most of the time. However, it is not within a teacher's control to make sure parents are doing their jobs, too. You would not believe the amount of parents who ignore correspondence and refuse to help their kids or even make sure they do their homework (or even make sure they have a lunch/and or lunch money!).

I believe if teachers get paid based on student performance, the only schools that will have enough teachers are ones in wealthy areas. The kids who really need the help will again fall short.

[Lady's Human]

Money spent per capita DOES NOT EQUAL better education.

[cassiesmom]

There is an Oprah show where she sent a crew to two schools. Harper High School in Chicago's Englewood neighborhood, and Neuqua Valley High School in Naperville (west suburb of Chicago). I was stunned and saddened by the conditions at Harper. The desks looked like they were from the '60s; they wanted to have a band program but didn't have nearly enough instruments; kids who qualified for AP courses had to travel to another school; the pool was empty and the benches in the boys' weight room were patched together with duct tape. Neuqua is a pretty typical suburban high school, loads of accelerated and AP classes, gym, pool, band and choir, sports, arts. Oprah then had some kids from each school visit the other school. The kids from Neuqua were shocked at what they saw and wanted to know how students could do well with what they had. The kids from Harper - well, you could have knocked them over with a feather.

A couple of years ago, one of the Chicago aldermen tried to register a group of Chicago public high school students up at New Trier, which is one of the best, if not the best, high schools in the state.

What I want to know is - colleges want a diverse student body, but how can a student from Harper do as well as someone from Neuqua or New Trier? Are colleges holding students from the best schools to higher admissions standards? How can two dissimilar schools prepare students to the same ability?

How do high schools assess whether a student is college material or not, and what do they do for those who are not?

[jennielynn1970]

How about having parents that actually raise their children and help them with homework??

How about we deduct from their pay, or increase it, for their child doing poorly/better on tests in school.

I think this would be equitable.

[Cataholic]

As a teacher, I have to say NO, I don't agree with this legislation. I don't really think people in "normal" jobs have a grasp on just how hard teachers work or how many hours they put in, or how much money they spend out of their own pockets to teach their students as best they can.




As an attorney, I can say the same thing. I can easily think of $30,000 in uncollected attorney fees- I did the work, and I did not get paid. I have a blackberry, internet access at home to stay in touch with people on Friday- the day I don't work, and don't get paid (LOL), I have certain clothes I buy for work, I call people and re-remind them of court dates, I meet clients at their homes or some other place to make it easier on them. I could go on and on. MOST professionals work more than the 'face time' reflected in the office. I had a client call me at 10 pm one night! And, no, it was not an ER. I didn't sign up for a 9-5 job, and I knew that going in. Saturday appointments cause the client says, "I work during the week, so I need to see you after work or on the weekend". Uh, hello? Guess what? I work, too! During the day, and not on the weekends (as a rule).

I don't think teachers hold the market on how hard they work. :)

[Pembroke_Corgi]

As an attorney, I can say the same thing. I can easily think of $30,000 in uncollected attorney fees- I did the work, and I did not get paid. I have a blackberry, internet access at home to stay in touch with people on Friday- the day I don't work, and don't get paid (LOL), I have certain clothes I buy for work, I call people and re-remind them of court dates, I meet clients at their homes or some other place to make it easier on them. I could go on and on. MOST professionals work more than the 'face time' reflected in the office. I had a client call me at 10 pm one night! And, no, it was not an ER. I didn't sign up for a 9-5 job, and I knew that going in. Saturday appointments cause the client says, "I work during the week, so I need to see you after work or on the weekend". Uh, hello? Guess what? I work, too! During the day, and not on the weekends (as a rule).

I don't think teachers hold the market on how hard they work. :)

Well, it is true that there are other jobs who work beyond the standard 9-5, but the average salary is much higher for an attorney than for a teacher. And, you still get paid even if you lose a court case don't you? (After all, you cannot control a person's guilt or innocence, etc.) I'm not sure why teachers should be penalized for something that is in many ways out of their control.

[Lady's Human]

Let's see.....things outside of my control:

equipment operators

machine programming/design

quality of the parts

the mail being run through the machines.

Extra time spent outside of work: about 2 years training (so far) in Oklahoma away from home, in addition to the training and experience that got me the job in the first place, and occasionally fielding calls to help other techs when things really get screwed up.

I still get paid if I can't fix a machine or a network system, but if it happens too many times I'll have issues.

We all deal with issues in our jobs which are outside of our direct control. No one profession has a corner on the work done behind the scenes.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Let's see.....things outside of my control:

equipment operators

machine programming/design

quality of the parts

the mail being run through the machines.

Extra time spent outside of work: about 2 years training (so far) in Oklahoma away from home, in addition to the training and experience that got me the job in the first place, and occasionally fielding calls to help other techs when things really get screwed up.

I still get paid if I can't fix a machine or a network system, but if it happens too many times I'll have issues.

We all deal with issues in our jobs which are outside of our direct control. No one profession has a corner on the work done behind the scenes.

LH, I see where you are coming from but I don’t agree. Whenever you work with people, things are not as cut and dried as fixing a broken machine. Think about this scenario (I’m not entirely clear how things run at the postal service, so forgive me if this is a clumsy analogy).

Let’s pretend each employee at the PO is expected to process 500 pieces of mail per week. No exceptions. If you fail to meet your goal, you will have your pay docked. At your PO, 75% of your mail takes more time to process than standard mail. You do not have the option to work later/longer in order to get your work done. Your average is typically 400 pieces of mail/week, because it would not do to have different standards for different post offices. Assuming you want don’t want your pay docked, what are your options? Cut corners (so you get it done faster, but maybe not as well), quit, or find an easier post office to work at.

[Lady's Human]

No, I'm not missing the human in the equations, they are part of the machine.

To take a different tack.....

For 2 years I was the ops NCO for a training team, and also an instructor.

I was a teacher. The military in wartime has a fairly harsh grading curve. If you teach your students well, they stand a far better chance of living than if they have a lousy instructor. Same varied inputs, (everyone from gung ho soldiers to people pissed because they just joined for the college money), but only one standard. At the end of the day, the soldiers leaving the training team's care HAD to know their job.

Incompetence on the podium was not put up with, and instructors were removed for...................their students (soldiers) not learning the required tasks. No questions asked. When 1A decided that soldiers weren't learning, the instructors were removed. In a few cases I know of the removal from the podium ended their careers.

Were otherwise competent soldiers careers ended because their students didn't learn?

Yup.

Did they have control over the soldiers they received to train? Nope.

There HAVE to be performance standards for teachers. What they should be is open for debate, but without standards, the education system is done.

[Lady's Human]

As an addition, there are jobs where that is the standard. It's called flat rate work in the automotive industry, and in general industry it's called piecework, which used to be a fairly standard pay scale (In some industries it still is)

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I agree that teachers should have some performance standards. However, getting paid based on student test scores is unfair to teachers, because it doesn't necessarily measure how hard or effectively teachers are working.

A student who comes into the 6th grade at a kindergarten reading level is still expected to meet grade level. A teacher could work very hard with the student (with or without parental involvement, though it is MUCH more difficult to accomplish anything without the parents' help) and the student could make great progress (for example read at a 3rd grade level) but still not meet their grade level. Imagine a school where this is the norm, and not the exception (as it is in many, many urban schools). A teacher at another school could have a classroom full of kids who already meet or exceed their grade level. This teacher could hypothetically kick back and relax (not saying they would) and make more than the teacher who worked their tail off. The result is that teachers will only want to work at the schools where parents are more involved and students are prepared for school.

Of course I think teachers need to do a good job, and performance standards is a good way to check on this. However, basing it on student grades is absolutely the wrong way to do it. Student progress may be a bit more fair, but I still think teachers who work at disadvantaged schools will still have a more difficult time meeting those kinds of goals.

[Lady's Human]

A student who comes into the 6th grade at a kindergarten reading level is still expected to meet grade level.

And short of an ESL or child with a learning disability, why is a child with that reading level entering 6th grade?

Screw social promotion, embarrass the hell out of them and they might have a newfound impetus to learn. It'd look damned silly for an 11 y/o to still be in kindergarten.

[wombat2u2004]

If teachers are expected to perform more.....then why not pay them more ???

[Cataholic]

Well, it is true that there are other jobs who work beyond the standard 9-5, but the average salary is much higher for an attorney than for a teacher. And, you still get paid even if you lose a court case don't you? (After all, you cannot control a person's guilt or innocence, etc.) I'm not sure why teachers should be penalized for something that is in many ways out of their control.


Right now, I have chosen to work a 4 day work week. I will go back to work 'full time' once J goes to school full time. So, these comments are based on a presumption that I am working a 5 day work week. I work anywhere between 50 and 60 hours a week. Of that time, I would bet about 80% is 'billable' time. For billable time, I 'should' get paid- whether I win or lose a court case (and, the majority of what I do is court room work, so, nice guess there! (or I told you that already, LOL)). I have no magical way of getting people to pay, unless I get my fee up front. Asking someone - and often they are just like you and I, regular working people, to fund a minimum of $5000- $7500 today for the work I will do over the next 6 months to a year is really difficult. They won't pay. I can usually get $1500 or so upfront, and I blow through that pretty quickly. So, I don't get 100% of my time- ever. Of the 80% that is billable, I bet I have a collection issue on 30%?? When you put that final figure into a 50-60 hour work week, I really don't make that much, LOL. I don't know many attorneys that really make that much. Sure, some are out there, and the big firms in the big cities really DO make money. They also bill between 1800-2000 hours a year. Bill, not work hours. Big difference.

I guess my 'thing' is- most of us work and get paid on a performance basis. Salespeople....they don't control the merchandise they sell, the general public to whom they are to sell, the market, the store location, etc. Doctors....they do a crappy job and they lose patients. Like lawyers. Like restaurants, like sales people, like everyone- seemingly, but, teachers.

[katladyd]

i am a teacher, and performance pay makes sense, until you are the teacher with all the students with special needs in her classroom. You are not going to look as good on paper as the teacher with more seniority who may not be as good a teacher as you are, but has many gifted students in her class. I am a special ed teacher who puts in many more hours than my fellow teachers in mainstream classes, but according to merit pay, I would get paid less. Now, I used to work in the legal profession, my boyfriend is an attorney of 30+ years experience, and the two are so unrelated to each other it is silly! I am thinking of going back into the legal field. It pays more and the hours are fewer...they really are.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Well, it's actually untrue that there are no repercussions or standards for teachers. For one thing, teachers must always continue to take classes in order to renew their license. Also, most teachers are contracted a certain amount of time at a school, for example 1-3 years, and at the end of their contract they can be let go or rehired. In addition, most schools have standards for their teachers, but since most education laws are state mandated and not federally mandated, this can vary from state to state and district to district.

The one really big exception to the fact that most laws are not federally mandated is IDEA. This is a federal law which requires students with disabilities to be educated in the "least restrictive environment." In many cases, this means in the general classroom some of the time while being pulled out (thereby reducing valuable instruction time) for special services (such as speech therapy, meeting with a special education teacher, etc.). So, it is not uncommon in some schools to have a classroom which is comprised of mostly students who are ESL and have a learning disability (BTW, ESL is not considered a learning disability, though it is very possible to have a student who is ESL and has an LD).

I personally feel that one really big problem with our education system is the fact that much of the prime formative years are ignored by the education system. A lot of research indicates that the preschool years are very important for creating good academic habits later in life. I feel every child should be required to attend a free, high quality preschool for at least 1-2 years before entering kindergarten. It's something I hope to study while I'm working on my PhD so I will get back to you with my results. :p

[Lady's Human]

Well, it's actually untrue that there are no repercussions or standards for teachers. For one thing, teachers must always continue to take classes in order to renew their license.

And this is different from most other profession show? Standards in many, many fields change constantly and skilled workers have to constantly update their training. This is not unique to the teaching profession. The main difference between a teacher and an electronic technician in that regard is that your professional updates count for a higher degree, while ours means we simply get to keep our jobs.



I personally feel that one really big problem with our education system is the fact that much of the prime formative years are ignored by the education system. A lot of research indicates that the preschool years are very important for creating good academic habits later in life. I feel every child should be required to attend a free, high quality preschool for at least 1-2 years before entering kindergarten. It's something I hope to study while I'm working on my PhD so I will get back to you with my results.


2 years of preschool prior to Kindergarten? Not only no, but hell no. Leave the creche to diploma "education" to the countries which already practice it, thank you. China has a wonderful system, kids learn to sing the praises of Chairman Mao before they can read.

I spend enough time as it is removing and challenging politically biased teaching in the classroom as it is, and my children are 5 and 8. The sole advantage to starting them in classrooms earlier is to get the programming started earlier. Ain't happening. Prior to the election I was listening to how great it was going to be to have a black man as President. Why in hell is that crap in elementary school? Then I heard how wonderful President Obama was.....before he had done anything. Then they learned about his Nobel gift..........and add to that to all the junk science being foisted on children in school. Speaking with other parents in other districts in NY state, it's not district wide, it's state wide.

Nope, 5 is early enough.

[lizbud]

And this is different from most other profession show? Standards in many, many fields change constantly and skilled workers have to constantly update their training. This is not unique to the teaching profession. The main difference between a teacher and an electronic technician in that regard is that your professional updates count for a higher degree, while ours means we simply get to keep our jobs.


2 years of preschool prior to Kindergarten? Not only no, but hell no. Leave the creche to diploma "education" to the countries which already practice it, thank you. China has a wonderful system, kids learn to sing the praises of Chairman Mao before they can read.

I spend enough time as it is removing and challenging politically biased teaching in the classroom as it is, and my children are 5 and 8. The sole advantage to starting them in classrooms earlier is to get the programming started earlier. Ain't happening. Prior to the election I was listening to how great it was going to be to have a black man as President. Why in hell is that crap in elementary school? Then I heard how wonderful President Obama was.....before he had done anything. Then they learned about his Nobel gift..........and add to that to all the junk science being foisted on children in school. Speaking with other parents in other districts in NY state, it's not district wide, it's state wide.

Nope, 5 is early enough.



What the heck are you so angry about??? Don't have to take this
subject personally.

[Lady's Human]

I realize the current mass media trend is to label any disagreement as anger, but guess what? It's disagreement.

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry..............

[lizbud]

I realize the current mass media trend is to label any disagreement as anger, but guess what? It's disagreement.

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry..............


I struggle to like any disagreeable person mad or otherwise.

[lizbud]

i am a teacher, and performance pay makes sense, until you are the teacher with all the students with special needs in her classroom. You are not going to look as good on paper as the teacher with more seniority who may not be as good a teacher as you are, but has many gifted students in her class. I am a special ed teacher who puts in many more hours than my fellow teachers in mainstream classes, but according to merit pay, I would get paid less. Now, I used to work in the legal profession, my boyfriend is an attorney of 30+ years experience, and the two are so unrelated to each other it is silly! I am thinking of going back into the legal field. It pays more and the hours are fewer...they really are.

I think you make a great point. I have two neices who are special Ed.
teachers. They both have shared their experiences at family gatherings.
I think it sure takes special gifts to be teachers in that field.

[Lady's Human]

I struggle to like any disagreeable person mad or otherwise.

Well, in which case you're going to have to either:

a) ignore me

b) accept the fact that I'm not a cheerleader for the left or the right and will continue to be "disagreeable" when I don't agree with an opinion.

Discussion is a good thing.

If everyone is nodding their heads in agreement then there's a severe lack of thought.

[lizbud]

I hope these people get this worked out for the betterment of Indiana's
school kids.This state needs to do better. Today's Editorial........

Our Opinion
Right message, wrong tactics

Posted: April 21, 2010

Tony Bennett has brought passion and vision to his job as Indiana's superintendent of public instruction. He's also infused a sense of urgency into the state Department of Education, which before Bennett's election was too far complacent in its acceptance of the status quo.

With so many students in Indiana failing to grasp the basics in reading and math, the stakes for this state and its children are enormous. Bennett understands those stakes far better than most within the education establishment.



But Bennett's brashness also can undermine his effectiveness, turning disputes into personal battles that overshadow policy. Such is the case with Bennett's current squabble with the presidents of two teachers unions.

On the merits, Bennett is largely correct. Teachers should be rewarded financially based more on student achievement rather than how long they've filled a classroom. Seniority also should be only one factor that administrators use in determining which teachers to lay off because of budget cuts or decreasing enrollment. More relevant is -- or should be -- teacher performance.

Yet, by engaging in a public dispute, including mass e-mails and press releases, Bennett has managed to make union leaders appear to be victims in a hard-hitting political fight.

It's not the first time Bennett has forgotten the need for diplomacy. He triggered an unnecessary spat with district superintendents last year by issuing new orders on the school calendar without consulting with administrators or even warning them that changes were imminent.

When it comes to communicating the need for reforms in Indiana schools, including new teacher work rules, Bennett's enthusiasm and energy are valuable assets. He need not back away from delivering the message that change is critical for a state with one of the least-educated work forces in the nation.

Bennett's work is too important, however, to squander his political capital by sinking into a personal fight with the unions, superintendents and others.

Press ahead, Mr. Superintendent, but be smart in picking your battles

[cassiesmom]

The only problem I see with this is that the kids can leave, but the schools don't seem to be given an incentive to improve.


"Liberate the Kids"

The Illinois House Executive Committee will hear a bill on Thursday that could give 22,000 Chicago elementary school students — those stuck in the weakest 10 percent of the city's public schools — an escape hatch.

The bill, which passed the Senate 33-20 in March, would offer state-funded tuition vouchers to kids who are enrolled at 49 elementary schools in Chicago. The kids could use the vouchers at any private or parochial school that admits them.

The Senate vote was instructive. Almost all Republicans voted for the bill. A majority of Democrats voted against it.

But look more deeply into that vote. Many Democrats from relatively affluent areas opposed the measure. But a majority of the African-American and Latino senators — those whose constituents' kids would directly benefit — voted yes. Good for those senators. They put their children first.

This has the makings of a genuinely bipartisan effort. On today's commentary page, Democratic State Sen. James Meeks and Republican Andy McKenna Jr. explain why it has broad appeal.

Here's why we think it does. It would give students — and their parents — better options. It would save the state money because the voucher would cost less than the state spends to educate a child in public schools.

And there's evidence that vouchers improve public schools. A 2009 report by The Friedman Foundation for Educational Choice examined 17 studies on the impact of voucher programs. Sixteen studies found that vouchers improved student achievement in public schools; one study found they had no positive or negative impact.

In other words, competition works. These vouchers would be a win-win-win for students, taxpayers and public education.

So you'd think lawmakers would be expressing full-throated support for the bill. But House Republican leader Tom Cross of Oswego and Rep. Dan Burke, D-Chicago, who chairs the executive committee, have been pretty quiet. It would be a tremendous help if they gave this bill a vocal boost before the hearing. It is going to take another bipartisan effort to get this through the House, because it does shake the education status quo.

There are reasons for all lawmakers to back this bill:

• Chicago lawmakers should support a bill that gives Chicago kids in failing schools a shot at a good education.

• Suburban and downstate lawmakers should support a bill that saves the state money — as much as $44 million over five years if roughly half of the students eligible for vouchers request them. (That number assumes the average voucher would be worth $4,000 per school year.) Over 12 years, the savings would total $242 million, according to the Illinois Policy Institute. How so? Private school tuition is less than what the state spends on Chicago Public Schools students.

What if student performance doesn't improve in private schools? Simple: Parents will vote with their feet. They'll re-enroll their kids at neighborhood public schools. "At some point," Meeks says, "we have to trust parents with their own children, and trust parents that they're not going to make a bad choice concerning their child. If they want their child out (of a failing public school), they should have that option."

Meeks is right. There's little risk, and much reward, in liberating kids from the city's worst schools so they can go find the best school for them.

Members of the Illinois House: Liberate them.

[Cataholic]

2 years of preschool prior to Kindergarten? Not only no, but hell no. Leave the creche to diploma "education" to the countries which already practice it, thank you. China has a wonderful system, kids learn to sing the praises of Chairman Mao before they can read.

I spend enough time as it is removing and challenging politically biased teaching in the classroom as it is, and my children are 5 and 8. The sole advantage to starting them in classrooms earlier is to get the programming started earlier. Ain't happening. Prior to the election I was listening to how great it was going to be to have a black man as President. Why in hell is that crap in elementary school? Then I heard how wonderful President Obama was.....before he had done anything. Then they learned about his Nobel gift..........and add to that to all the junk science being foisted on children in school. Speaking with other parents in other districts in NY state, it's not district wide, it's state wide.

Nope, 5 is early enough.

LOL, politically biased teaching? J must not be getting his fair share! He will have spent 3 years in preschool, before he enters K this fall (as a 6 year old). His first 'year' was 2 days a week, for 2.5 hours, each. Not exactly rigorous by anyone's standards, I am sure. He then went to 3 days a week, again, 2.5 hours, the following year. Both of those years were less than the traditional school calendar, with a little extra at Christmas break time. They were both in a church based program. So, no politics, but some religion. :eek:

Now, he is in a 5 morning a week program- at his public school. He is in a 3-6 aged grouping, (Montessori). It is about 2.75 hours a day (with 35 minutes either outside or large muscle room).

He has done remarkably well, and frankly the shift from NO school to full day kindergarten (what our district offers) would have been pretty tough on him. I am in his classroom every other Friday. I have never heard anything 'political', no junk science, etc. Every child is different, and my child was one that benefitted from a graduated progression into school.

My final thoughts- as I feel we were ganging up a bit on our resident teacher, is that I firmly believe teaching to be one of the least regarded and most important professions there are. I also think that there are horrible teachers out there (we have all had them, seen them, etc). Those teachers should be removed. The current system doesn't really provide for that. There is little accountability.

I know ALL professions have bad apples. But, most other professions bear the brunt of the market influence. If someone doesn't do their job, they are fired. f a company isn't making money, people are let go, shut down, etc. That just doesn't happen in education. It is rare that a school district closes down, even though many of the markers are deemed unacceptable.

[Lady's Human]

LOL, politically biased teaching? J must not be getting his fair share! He will have spent 3 years in preschool, before he enters K this fall (as a 6 year old). His first 'year' was 2 days a week, for 2.5 hours, each. Not exactly rigorous by anyone's standards, I am sure. He then went to 3 days a week, again, 2.5 hours, the following year. Both of those years were less than the traditional school calendar, with a little extra at Christmas break time. They were both in a church based program. So, no politics, but some religion.

That's by your choice, which you, as a parent should have.

PC mentioned mandatory, not optional preschool. Axel was in a 1/2 day program for a year before he went to kindergarten by our CHOICE, not a mandate from a politician.

[pomtzu]

When I was a kid, back in The Dark Ages, there was no K or pre-school. I started school in 1st grade and went thru grade 12. However - way back then, we learned a whole lot more each school year than the kids do now. We were learning "cursive" writing in 2nd and 3rd grade, and I can remember, plain as day, blowing my 3rd grade teacher away when I correctly spelled "carbohydrates". No big deal now, but it sure was when I did it. And we learned by repetition. Maybe not much fun at the time, but it will always stick with you learning it that way - especially the math. I always thought it was fun. My 14 year old grandson can't seem to grasp it, and I believe it's the method of teaching that is his biggest problem. I lost it with the "new math" that was taught when my kids were in school - a dozen or so steps to come up with the same answer I could come up with in 2 or 3 steps. What was the purpose of that - other than a waste of time???

[Cataholic]

^^ I absolutely shudder to think of J and math. I will probably have to get a tutor for him beginning in the 3rd grade if I am expected to help him at all. OR, I will have to order a book and teacher's text and get some tutoring myself. No joke. Math was and still is a huge struggle for me. I think I have a form of math dyslexia. :(

[wombat2u2004]

They have a system in Japan, not sure what they call it, but if children can't grasp a particular lesson then they stay back after school with the teachers, who tutor them. They are allowed to go home after they have displayed that they have fully understood the lesson. Some kids grasp it quickly, others don't.......and they are not allowed to go home until they have achieved the desired result.
Think about the advantages............
These lessons are cutting into the kids free time, so they are gonna really try and understand the lesson so they can get on back home for dinner and their TV's.
And of course, one on one tutoring/learning has got to be more advantageous than one on forty.
And......the teachers don't like staying back after work either, so that in itself would give the teachers more impetus to ensure they did their job more effectively in the classroom.
I admire that system....beats our system hands down.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

LH- While I don't agree with what you are saying exactly, I think I understand and agree with the principle behind it. You want your children to be able to think for themselves and not just believe what they are told. Critical thinking, in my opinion, is one thing schools ARE NOT teaching enough of, and I think this a big failure of schools which is caused from thoughtless mandates like NCLB and linking a teacher's pay to a student's letter grade. (Grades do not necessarily measure real learning). Also, I think it is great that you actually care what and how your kids learn. Many parents do not. Or they are so busy/distracted/whatever that they may act like they care but actually do nothing to ensure their child's success in school. This is why I believe there needs to be free, high quality daycare (yes, I think it should be mandatory) because there are many kids who probably have never been read to before school starts, so they have missed out on a HUGE learning opportunity that most likely, they will never be able to "make up" for with later education.

Also, I wanted to point out that education/ the world is changing. You can google anything and have an answer to your question in 30 seconds. Education is shifting so kids know how to understand and synthesize information in a changing world. It's great if someone found drilling in school beneficial to them, but research shows not everyone learns this way. There are only a few good hours in a school day and teaching kids to write perfect cursive is not a good use of time in today's world (especially since there is so much pressure to get your students to perform in other areas).

Also, if I may share a big pet peeve of mine, it's that a lot of people think they are experts on education who have no training or background in it. Being a student and the study of pedagogy are very different things, and many teachers today are highly qualified to teach. Yes, parents know their kids best, but a good teacher will communicate with parents in order to help their students more. Teaching is based on science, not anecdotes or feelings or how we were taught as kids.

[pomtzu]

^^ I absolutely shudder to think of J and math. I will probably have to get a tutor for him beginning in the 3rd grade if I am expected to help him at all. OR, I will have to order a book and teacher's text and get some tutoring myself. No joke. Math was and still is a huge struggle for me. I think I have a form of math dyslexia. :(

I was always good in math - at least the way it was taught to me. Fortunately my kids were good in the "new math" which was Greek to me, or I would have needed tutoring just so I could help them. :(


They have a system in Japan, not sure what they call it, but if children can't grasp a particular lesson then they stay back after school with the teachers, who tutor them. They are allowed to go home after they have displayed that they have fully understood the lesson. Some kids grasp it quickly, others don't.......and they are not allowed to go home until they have achieved the desired result.
Think about the advantages............
These lessons are cutting into the kids free time, so they are gonna really try and understand the lesson so they can get on back home for dinner and their TV's.
And of course, one on one tutoring/learning has got to be more advantageous than one on forty.
And......the teachers don't like staying back after work either, so that in itself would give the teachers more impetus to ensure they did their job more effectively in the classroom.
I admire that system....beats our system hands down.

Sounds like a winner Wom, but I don't ever see that happening here. Too much opposition from teachers and parents alike. I'd love to see my grandson have to do that, and his parents would too. It would be worth my while to have to pick him up from school everyday if it would help him.

[IRescue452]

Am I the only one who thinks the problem lies not in school, but in society as a whole? I learned to read when I was 3. Well before I started school. We didn't have cable, we didn't have playstation (though we did have atari), we didn't have cell phones or facebook or email to keep up on, we didn't go to the mall every other day. Both of my parents actually had time to sit down and read with us or do learning things. Now I have little sisters and they don't read or do math as well. They've got a single mother who has no time and they have a tv for a babysitter. They spend hours on the computer daily. This is just how society is now. We've got no time to devote to teaching children. No, machines do the work now. They don't have to learn anything. Its just that point in our culture's evolution where we can stop teaching math because computers do it for us, we can stop teaching reading because we have e-books that fit in our pockets and can read for us, we can stop teaching history and science and everything else because we have internet. Kids know this. They may not consciously choose this way of thinking, but they grew up in a time when they could refer to the internet if they needed an answer. The attitude of "why should I sit through school and learn the old-fashioned way" is built right in.

[Lady's Human]

Also, if I may share a big pet peeve of mine, it's that a lot of people think they are experts on education who have no training or background in it. Being a student and the study of pedagogy are very different things, and many teachers today are highly qualified to teach. Yes, parents know their kids best, but a good teacher will communicate with parents in order to help their students more. Teaching is based on science, not anecdotes or feelings or how we were taught as kids.

I beg to differ. What, praytell is the educational equivalent of Ohm's law?

Calling it a science doesn't make it one.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I beg to differ. What, praytell is the educational equivalent of Ohm's law?

Calling it a science doesn't make it one.

Have you never heard of the social sciences? Still perfectly possible to use the scientific method and gather empirical data.

[Lady's Human]

I've heard of them, however, I've yet to see an equation to quantify them.

Calling something a science doesn't make it one. Some people call astrology a science.

[lizbud]

Have you never heard of the social sciences? Still perfectly possible to use the scientific method and gather empirical data.


True.:) Just read a interesting article on kids, teachers & genetics.
How they are all part of the equation involved in the learning process.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36717876/ns/health-kids_and_parenting/

[Cataholic]

Am I the only one who thinks the problem lies not in school, but in society as a whole? I learned to read when I was 3. Well before I started school. We didn't have cable, we didn't have playstation (though we did have atari), we didn't have cell phones or facebook or email to keep up on, we didn't go to the mall every other day. Both of my parents actually had time to sit down and read with us or do learning things. Now I have little sisters and they don't read or do math as well. They've got a single mother who has no time and they have a tv for a babysitter. They spend hours on the computer daily. This is just how society is now. We've got no time to devote to teaching children. No, machines do the work now. They don't have to learn anything. Its just that point in our culture's evolution where we can stop teaching math because computers do it for us, we can stop teaching reading because we have e-books that fit in our pockets and can read for us, we can stop teaching history and science and everything else because we have internet. Kids know this. They may not consciously choose this way of thinking, but they grew up in a time when they could refer to the internet if they needed an answer. The attitude of "why should I sit through school and learn the old-fashioned way" is built right in.

I have always heard that the early readers, or talkers, or writers of their name, all pretty much balance out by the 5th grade. Like early walkers..not exactly a fortelling of great physical prowess. I am curious, what did you go on to do after that? AND- I don't mean that in any insulting way..just curious. Did you then go on to skip grades? Graduate from high school at 15? Graduate college at 18, etc.?

I learned to read at a more "normal" time...and to this day, read, read and read- 4 books a week is not unusul for me. I love to read. I graduated college and law school at 'normal' times, enjoyed school ok in general, didn't do overly well, etc. But, I read like a fool.

That is where my curiosity comes from. What did such an early start in reading do for you? Are you still an avid reader? I can remember, as a kid, literally- looking around me for cereal boxes to read at breakfast. I read the wall of stuff at J's school last night, while waiting for a parent's meeting to begin. I. Must. Read.
But, I was not an early reader by any means.

[Cataholic]

Also, if I may share a big pet peeve of mine, it's that a lot of people think they are experts on education who have no training or background in it. Being a student and the study of pedagogy are very different things, and many teachers today are highly qualified to teach. Yes, parents know their kids best, but a good teacher will communicate with parents in order to help their students more. Teaching is based on science, not anecdotes or feelings or how we were taught as kids.

I agree, completely. I am in no way, shape or form, an expert on education. I readily agree that while I know how to write, read, and learn...I have NO idea how to teach how to write, read and learn or , why to do it a certain way, etc.

I do know my child best, but, that doesn't mean I know how or why to teach him best. That is prolly my biggest criticism of homeschooling. Frankly, I am not qualified to teach my child, from an educational standpoint, despite having plenty of education myself.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

I have always heard that the early readers, or talkers, or writers of their name, all pretty much balance out by the 5th grade. Like early walkers..not exactly a fortelling of great physical prowess. I am curious, what did you go on to do after that? AND- I don't mean that in any insulting way..just curious. Did you then go on to skip grades? Graduate from high school at 15? Graduate college at 18, etc.?

I learned to read at a more "normal" time...and to this day, read, read and read- 4 books a week is not unusul for me. I love to read. I graduated college and law school at 'normal' times, enjoyed school ok in general, didn't do overly well, etc. But, I read like a fool.

That is where my curiosity comes from. What did such an early start in reading do for you? Are you still an avid reader? I can remember, as a kid, literally- looking around me for cereal boxes to read at breakfast. I read the wall of stuff at J's school last night, while waiting for a parent's meeting to begin. I. Must. Read.
But, I was not an early reader by any means.

I don't think being an early reader give students an advantage per se, but research shows that being exposed to books, text, and lots of adult conversation gives students a big advantage in school. Kids who have a rich environment before school learn things like phonemic awareness and how print looks before they begin K, and tend to have larger vocabularies (in many cases this is true throughout academic careers).

I agree with IRescue452 that too many parents just turn on the TV instead of helping their kids. Schools cannot (and should not) do everything. Parents actually need to do their job, too. I have a relative whose kid has reading comprehension problems that has been brought up repeatedly in conferences, and the parents do absolutely nothing to help him despite the fact the teacher has given them numerous tips, help, etc. They were also offered FREE tutoring twice a week after school and didn't take it because they didn't want to have to pick him up from school (1 mile away) instead of having the bus take him. That is just lazy and ignorant IMO. This is actually not that uncommon either in my experience. At what point are parents responsible for their own child's grades?

[pomtzu]

Ok - this is just a little off topic, but how does an adult get back into the reading mode?

I was always an avid reader of just about anything. Loved reading in school, and it followed thru to my adult life. Even tho I was married, maintaining a household, working full time, and raising two kids, I always found time to read. If I found a book that really "grabbed me", it was nothing for me to read it in 1 or 2 days, and I'm not talking short stories either. Back in the 60's and 70's when book clubs were popular, I would get several books at a time, and have them read in no time flat. As the kids got older (teens), I found myself reading less and less, and now that I'm retired, I read hardly at all. My concentration really sucks, and I have 2 books sitting on my desk right now that I really want to read, but just can't get into it. I started one about 6 months ago, read 2 chapters, and haven't picked it up again - and it's a good book - not one that puts me to sleep. I'm going to have to start it again from the beginning when I do get to it!

So do we get reading burnout???? It would seem that I have it. Any suggestions on how to cure it?? :confused::(

[Cataholic]

^^. Hmmmm.....assuming you do like to read, I might suggest you turn off the TV at night (LOL). That is my main distraction. It lets my mind 'go' without having to focus. I might also start with magazines- those that require a lot less time than a full scale book.

But, really, all that could be way off base. Not reading is just not possible with me!

[Puckstop31]

I do know my child best, but, that doesn't mean I know how or why to teach him best. That is prolly my biggest criticism of homeschooling. Frankly, I am not qualified to teach my child, from an educational standpoint, despite having plenty of education myself.

As I see it, the most important thing a homeschooling parent must do is first know, then admit when they are over their head. Then, find and use the resources that are available to meet the need. Do some people home school because only they want to be the teaacher of their children? Sure. I do not think that is the correct attitude to have about it.

We are going to home school our children because we believe it is our responsibility to do so. Plus, we can. Plus, they (eventually 'they' that is) will get an education that is better geared to their learning style.

I am not sure if we covered it here, but what does 'qualified' mean anyway?

[pomtzu]

Not reading is just not possible with me!

And that's the way I used to be....:(

I had thought about setting aside an hour (to start) each day just to read, but I don't want to feel like I have to read when that hour comes around. That would make it seem like a chore if I really didn't want to do it. The last time I really did any serious reading, was on a long and boring train trip. Unfortunately that's an expensive way to make time to read! :eek::p

Maybe I should subscribe to Reader's Digest. I've always enjoyed that and they have lots of good articles. I also like National Geographic. Not too keen on other magazines tho.

[Puckstop31]

Ok - this is just a little off topic, but how does an adult get back into the reading mode?

<snip>

So do we get reading burnout???? It would seem that I have it. Any suggestions on how to cure it?? :confused::(

Start easy. Short stuff.... Magazines and the like. Then, when you read something you like, read other stuff by the author. Or, if the article lists reference material, read that. OR, if you like reading commentary like I do, read the other sides stuff.

From there, IMO, it develops into a thirst for more.

[Daisy and Delilah]

Ellie, I just got a book that I thought I would like and I read it. Liked it so much I got another one. Now, I have to have my reading fix every day. Good luck!!:)

[Cataholic]

As I see it, the most important thing a homeschooling parent must do is first know, then admit when they are over their head. Then, find and use the resources that are available to meet the need. Do some people home school because only they want to be the teaacher of their children? Sure. I do not think that is the correct attitude to have about it.

We are going to home school our children because we believe it is our responsibility to do so. Plus, we can. Plus, they (eventually 'they' that is) will get an education that is better geared to their learning style.

I am not sure if we covered it here, but what does 'qualified' mean anyway?

I think people- in general- are composed of strenghts and weaknesses. Things the parent excels at, and doesn't excel at. I think I have strenghts that lie in areas other than teaching my own (or anyones, for that matter) child. I prefer to leave that up to people qualified. To me, qualified means qualified to teach, have a degree, certification, training, experience, etc. Yes, I recognize that there are "qualified" teachers that stink and have no business being around kids, and that there are "unqualified" people that excel at teaching. In fact, in some industries, there are "trainers". People that are not educationally diploma'd, that train employees. My SIL is one of them. Frankly, she is good at what she does, and has a four year degree in psych or soc, I think. Not education.


In general, though, I like to believe that being "qualified" to teach means something. Perhaps I buy into the whole formal education thing a little bit too much.

[Puckstop31]

I think people- in general- are composed of strenghts and weaknesses. Things the parent excels at, and doesn't excel at. I think I have strenghts that lie in areas other than teaching my own (or anyones, for that matter) child. I prefer to leave that up to people qualified. To me, qualified means qualified to teach, have a degree, certification, training, experience, etc. Yes, I recognize that there are "qualified" teachers that stink and have no business being around kids, and that there are "unqualified" people that excel at teaching. In fact, in some industries, there are "trainers". People that are not educationally diploma'd, that train employees. My SIL is one of them. Frankly, she is good at what she does, and has a four year degree in psych or soc, I think. Not education.


In general, though, I like to believe that being "qualified" to teach means something. Perhaps I buy into the whole formal education thing a little bit too much.

I see where you are coming from. Indeed all people have strengths and weaknesses. Realizing this, I think, is a key to succcess in whatever endeavor you are doing.

Also, I do understand the desire to be taught by a person 'qualified' to teach the subject being taught. Perhaps we will just have to disagree as to what qualified means. To me, a diploma, degree, certificate or whatever isn't worth the paper it is on if you cannot take that knowledge and actually accomplish the goal in the real world. For instance, part of my job has me interviewing candidates for IT tech positions in our company from time to time. These days we get hundreds of resumes. But come interview time, very few of them can actually offer realistic and client driven solutions.

How this applies to my view of homeschooling is... Does the student learn the subject matter? Right now, Hannah is just starting the basics... ABC's, etc... Personally, I would be a very bad teacher of those things. My wife on the other hand, with her simple high school education, excels at it. She just has that nack for knowing how to explain things to her in a way that she seems to pick up. Eventually, she will get into things that I know I can teach her. Also, eventually, we will get to subject matter that neither of us can do. That's where the homeschooling groups around us come into play.


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This is a very interesting line of discussion BTW. We just happen to be doing the whole DISC assesment thing in our company right now. I came out a HIGH "D" and a VERY low "C". Shocker, I know. LOL My guess is, from what you shared here, is you would be pretty much opposite. That means, I think, that the process is as important to you as the results. Me? I could care less about the process as long as the job gets done.

There is no right or wrong "answers" in the DISC process. Its just a way to learn how to talk to each other.

As to education... For me, as in most things, I don't care about process, qualifications, etc... Just that the students learn. And for the most part, the homeschooling students in the groups I have been exposed to, do.

[Cataholic]

I see where you are coming from. Indeed all people have strengths and weaknesses. Realizing this, I think, is a key to succcess in whatever endeavor you are doing.

Also, I do understand the desire to be taught by a person 'qualified' to teach the subject being taught. Perhaps we will just have to disagree as to what qualified means. To me, a diploma, degree, certificate or whatever isn't worth the paper it is on if you cannot take that knowledge and actually accomplish the goal in the real world. For instance, part of my job has me interviewing candidates for IT tech positions in our company from time to time. These days we get hundreds of resumes. But come interview time, very few of them can actually offer realistic and client driven solutions.

How this applies to my view of homeschooling is... Does the student learn the subject matter? Right now, Hannah is just starting the basics... ABC's, etc... Personally, I would be a very bad teacher of those things. My wife on the other hand, with her simple high school education, excels at it. She just has that nack for knowing how to explain things to her in a way that she seems to pick up. Eventually, she will get into things that I know I can teach her. Also, eventually, we will get to subject matter that neither of us can do. That's where the homeschooling groups around us come into play.


----

This is a very interesting line of discussion BTW. We just happen to be doing the whole DISC assesment thing in our company right now. I came out a HIGH "D" and a VERY low "C". Shocker, I know. LOL My guess is, from what you shared here, is you would be pretty much opposite. That means, I think, that the process is as important to you as the results. Me? I could care less about the process as long as the job gets done.

There is no right or wrong "answers" in the DISC process. Its just a way to learn how to talk to each other.

As to education... For me, as in most things, I don't care about process, qualifications, etc... Just that the students learn. And for the most part, the homeschooling students in the groups I have been exposed to, do.

Actually, we are more in agreement than disagreement. I do put more emphasis on the end result as I do the process. But, I see a more direct correlation between the end result and the process used to achieve that end.

Again, I do recognize that the process can turn out a useless product, and that a prized product can be a result of a haphazard process. In my world, it is unlikely, possible, but, unlikely.

As for homeschooling, I have yet to meet a home schooled child that I couldn't pick out of the bunch. I have yet to meet a home schooled child that I would put on par with a more traditionally educated child as it relates to social adaption. Maybe that means I have limited interactions with the 'well rounded' homeschooler, only the more relgiously zealoused home schooler. I don't know. My experience is my experience.

Interestingly enough, J is in a montessori program, not a traditional school program. You know, montessori...where the child is allowed to play with blocks in the corner all day long? The one progra that is used to teach the mentally challenged? (that is me poking fun at montessori...what I hear from othe people when they learn he is there).

Finding what works best for your child should be at the fore. Not all things work for all kids. And, not all things that work at one age works at a later age.

[IRescue452]

I really think factory style schools are obsolete anyway. Kids nowadays know more about technology and access to information than their teachers do. Schools have to evolve to fit this century or the problems are just going to keep rolling in.

[blue]

I really think factory style schools are obsolete anyway.

Absolutely!! After students learn the basics they should ether go to vocational schooling or college prep schooling and the drop outs can tend counters at fast food joints/Wal Marts/Dead End Jobs. We could rebuild our work force if we stopped emphasising every runny nosed spoiled kid could be the POTUS and became realistic that some of us are better off working with our hands and some just arent suited for jobs that require any type of thinking whatsoever.

Aptitude based learning after the basics have been learned.

[wombat2u2004]

Absolutely!! and the drop outs can tend counters at fast food joints/Wal Marts/Dead End Jobs.

And this includes slow learners ????

[Lady's Human]

Absolutely!! After students learn the basics they should ether go to vocational schooling or college prep schooling and the drop outs can tend counters at fast food joints/Wal Marts/Dead End Jobs. We could rebuild our work force if we stopped emphasising every runny nosed spoiled kid could be the POTUS and became realistic that some of us are better off working with our hands and some just arent suited for jobs that require any type of thinking whatsoever.

Aptitude based learning after the basics have been learned.

Who decides what the aptitudes are, and when do they do that?

What you recommend sound suspiciously like a certain system practiced
by a certain country famous more for raising a white flag than anything else.....

Ask me at 17 if I was going to be a career soldier and an electronic tech in the civilian world.

[blue]

And this includes slow learners ????

Only if they drop out.


Who decides what the aptitudes are, and when do they do that?

The ASVAB and SAT tests would be a good starting point.


What you recommend sound suspiciously like a certain system practiced
by a certain country famous more for raising a white flag than anything else.....

The Democratic Party has their own country?


Ask me at 17 if I was going to be a career soldier and an electronic tech in the civilian world.

At 17 I knew I wasnt going to waste my time with college so I started learning a trade.

[fghoieks]

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