Irwin is home..I need some advice on possible euthanasia

[JustineNYC]

As you can see, he is NOT a happy camper!

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs405.snc3/24545_1346766594167_1381370960_31144956_7628913_n. jpg

:love: We just got home, so that was expected.

Poor thing. I need some advice about something. They cleaned his bladder out, but the vet said, his bladder is about 5 to 7 times thicker then it should be, a result of his FLUTD. We are going to manage his discomfort with pain meds, other then that, Im not sure what we can do. I hope now he is at least a little more comfortable then before because the stones are gone.

Prior to this he was urinating out tiny stones that looked like glass.

My question is, is it cruel to make him live like this? We have no way of knowing how much discomfort he is in. Should I consider euthanizing him because of the thickness of his bladder? From the way my vet described it, we may need to regulate his discomfort forever or maybe only when he shows discomfort.

My problem is, Irwin is not even 6 yet, he will be 6 in June, and other then these flare ups of blood in the urine or straining to pee, he is the sweetest cat ever. He is always purring, rubbing on me, kissing me, he has his little furry mouse he walks around the house with....he loves to play and be silly, so its difficult for me to make a decision like that, when I do not see a sickly cat. Its not like he sits around wanting to die.

And if he needed to be on something, for the rest of his life, I could financially deal with that.

Any advice is greatly appreciated! I know you guys will understand.

[catmandu]

I would be inclined to give Irwin:):) some more time at 6 years young:love::love:
Is Irwin in a lot of pain where hes scraeming when he eliminates?
They are making such advances in Vet Technonology , I would get another opinion if you feel that this Vet isnt helping.
We are doubling Our Prayers for Incredible Irwin :cool::cool:so he can beat this disease:love::love::love:

[JustineNYC]

I would be inclined to give Irwin:):) some more time at 6 years young:love::love:
Is Irwin in a lot of pain where hes scraeming when he eliminates?
They are making such advances in Vet Technonology , I would get another opinion if you feel that this Vet isnt helping.
We are doubling Our Prayers for Incredible Irwin :cool::cool:so he can beat this disease:love::love::love:

Only when he was passing the stones, but the stones are gone now, they went in and flushed him all out.

Basically the stones aggravate his urethra, and his urethra will become inflamed and then I'll catch him peeing blood in the sink.

The stones are gone now, but I don't know what a "thickened bladder wall" means in terms of discomfort.

I used to live in NYC, and he was treated there by at least 10 vets including at the animal medical center. And now here we've been to 3 with him and I really like this vet. Irwins had countless urinalysis, x rays, ultrasounds, prescription diets, anti-inflammatories, etc. I must've spent at least $10,000 in the last 5 years.

What we did was, we went in and cleaned him out and now we are "starting over" with him, on a different prescription diet, no stones. But there is nothing they can do for a thickened bladder, its just something that happens with the FLUTD. :( She said the vessels that lead to the bladder are also engorged, but his kidneys functions came back fine.

[catmandu]

I would wait and see how Poor Irwin does with his New Medications.
It is a sad thing that some of Our Cats have to be Angels so early in life:(
We will have Irwin in Our Thughts and Prayers Tonight.
Hes such a WonderCat:love::love::love:

[moosmom]

I agree with Gary. Take a wait and see approach, as long as he's not in any pain. Sometimes cats can live long lives with certain conditions (MooShoo lived almost 11 years with a bloodclot). Certain conditions can also be corrected or maintained with different kinds of food. Ask your vet.

If and when the time comes that you have to make that very difficult decision, make it with your head, not your heart. Also take into consideration what his quality of life will be if you try to keep on sustaining him.

I had to do that with my RB Mollie Rose. She was my very first cat and was 16 when I had to make the decision. She had severe kidney disease and had lost 4 pounds in less than a year. I noticed how skinny she was. Then one day she was laying at the water fountain yowling. I ran her to the vet and they kept her overnight, and did tests. He told me there really weren't many options unless I wanted to spend $1,000 for an ultrasound. I would've sold my soul if it would've made her whole, happy and healthy. But it would not. I came to the realization it was time. She lived a wonderful, pampered 16 years and got me through so many difficulties and tragedies in my life. I will never forget her.

I also believe that no animal should die alone. So, while the vet gave her the injection, I petted her, telling her I loved her with all my heart, and to go to the RB and be happy. LES right now.

You and Irwin will be in my thoughts and prayers.

[Taz_Zoee]

Donna you got me crying too. :( I went through a similar thing with Taz.

I agree with Donna and Gary. It sounds like Irwin is doing well right now since the stones are gone. I would try the medication and food and see how that goes for him.

I remember when Taz was very sick and all my PT family kept telling me "you'll know when it's time". I didn't want to face that fact AT ALL. But the last time he went to the vet she said "I would not try to stop you if you want to let him go today". Well of course I didn't WANT to. But she said there was basically nothing left to do for him. I'd done the fluids for a few weeks with no results. It was time even though I didn't want it to be. I also stayed with him while he went. Oh man, all those emotions are rushing back to me right now.

Irwin is sooo young, I hope he has a few (if not more) years left with you. And you should know when he's had enough.

Good luck! And I'll keep Irwin in my thoughts.

[kitten645]

Major LES here. :(
Having gone thru this very painfully and very recently, I completely agree with everyone here. Irwin will tell you when he's done. Don't start packing his bags yet!;) They can really be miracles and when he's done, he will absolutely tell you so. Hobbes did and no amount of money I wished I could throw at teh problem was going to make him whole again.
I think Irwin has alot of living to do yet. You are an excellent meowmie!:love:
Claudia & Calvin

[Catty1]

I don't think UTIs and stones in a younger kitty are USUALLY causes for euthanasia. If you choose the food and kitty treats wisely, and make sure he gets lots of fluids (adding warm water to mush up some wet food a bit helps), then handsome Irwin should be with you for many years to some.

Shortly after I got my tabby Oscar a few years ago, he developed a nasty cystitis. There weren't many crystals - and those that were there were gone in a week with a change in diet. However, there was blood in his urine up to a month later.

In addition to changing his food, my vet said I could use the powder from a cranberry capsule. About 50 mg - or 1/5 of a capsule, as I eyeballed it - went into a small amount of totally plain unflavoured low fat yogurt. Oscar loved that stuff, and got the cranberry in with it. It was to be used for about a month. (You can ask your vet about this).

Hugs to you and to Irwin, and I am sure you will be able to maintain his new health for a very long time. :):love:

[JustineNYC]

I don't think UTIs and stones in a younger kitty are USUALLY causes for euthanasia. If you choose the food and kitty treats wisely, and make sure he gets lots of fluids (adding warm water to mush up some wet food a bit helps), then handsome Irwin should be with you for many years to some.

Shortly after I got my tabby Oscar a few years ago, he developed a nasty cystitis. There weren't many crystals - and those that were there were gone in a week with a change in diet. However, there was blood in his urine up to a month later.

In addition to changing his food, my vet said I could use the powder from a cranberry capsule. About 50 mg - or 1/5 of a capsule, as I eyeballed it - went into a small amount of totally plain unflavoured low fat yogurt. Oscar loved that stuff, and got the cranberry in with it. It was to be used for about a month. (You can ask your vet about this).

Hugs to you and to Irwin, and I am sure you will be able to maintain his new health for a very long time. :):love:


Its not stones and UTI's unfortunately, its Feline Lower Urinary Tract disease, and what its done to his bladder. The bladder wall is 5 to 7 times thicker then it should be, which makes Irwin feel like he needs to urinate all day, he empties his bladder and then goes back to the litter another 7 times.

He's spent the majority of the day in the cat litter and hes already on pain meds.

I wish it was stones and UTI's. Infections can be treated and stones can be removed. Unfortunately, this sucks.


He's been on prescription diets since he was 2, it hasn't helped.

If this is gonna be his life, I dont know what to do, its not right to let him live his life in a cat litter box. :(

[Catty1]

What meds is he on?

I don't know if this helps a thickened bladder wall, but a number of cats are put on amitryptiline to relax the bladder muscle. Maybe ask your vet if that would help Irwin?

I'm so sorry to hear how ill Irwin has been...hopefully he will even out in the next several days. I would guess his bladder is more sensitive than usual.

{{{hugs}}}

[king2005]

I'm a firm believer that raw foods solve most digestive issues in dogs & cats. Cats & Dogs were never meant to digest cooked foods, well not in large amounts like many people feed them. Try a raw diet to see how he does

http://www.healthypetjournal.com/default.aspx?tabid=20622

[katladyd]

What meds is he on?

I don't know if this helps a thickened bladder wall, but a number of cats are put on amitryptiline to relax the bladder muscle. Maybe ask your vet if that would help Irwin?

I'm so sorry to hear how ill Irwin has been...hopefully he will even out in the next several days. I would guess his bladder is more sensitive than usual.

{{{hugs}}}

My Ming suffered chronic blockages until I put him on amitryptiline over a year ago. He has had not one bladder infection or blockage since! I also give him plenty of water in his canned food, feed him Purina One for Urinary Tract Problems, and feed him NO FISH FLAVORED CAT FOOD! He's doing great and there is no reason to put him down.

[krazyaboutkatz]

I'm sorry to hear that Irwin's bladder walls have become thickened.:( Hopefully he's feeling better since his bladder stones have been removed. I'd also wait and see what happens and hopefully he'll be with you for quite a while yet. I'll continue to keep him in my thoughts and prayers.

I typed in meds for the thickening of the bladder in cats and I came across this: http://cat-bladder-problems.com/blog/reverse-feline-bladder-thickening/.

I've also heard and read this:
Cosequin and Feline Urinary Diseases:
Cosequin glucosamine and chondroitin joint supplements have been found to improve urinary bladder health in cats by producing a protective coating on the inside of the bladder wall.

[moosmom]

Catty1,

I would NOT recommend Amitryptiline. My vet told me that while it's approved for dogs, it is not approved for cats as it makes them irritable and lethargic. I know because I tried it (years ago) on RB Casey. That was the exact result I got. He was being tormented by one of my other cats, Tucker, who I rehomed. He's living the life of Riley with my friends in a 3 story victorian house. I have visitation. He's wonderful.

[Freedom]

See if you can find The Whole Pet Diet, by Andi Brown, at your library. Take a look, buy it if you think it will help you. I bought it for $3 plus shipping on Amazon.com

Like someone said above, diet can cure so much!

And although he is currently in the litter box a lot, ALSO:

he is the sweetest cat ever. He is always purring, rubbing on me, kissing me, he has his little furry mouse he walks around the house with....he loves to play and be silly, so its difficult for me to make a decision like that, when I do not see a sickly cat. Its not like he sits around wanting to die.


Does not sound like he is checking out as yet. You AND THE VET just need to find a way for him to feel more comfortable.

Best wishes!

[JustineNYC]

Irwin was on the Amitryptiline and then Clomicalm (I posted about it last year), because he developed a spraying habit because of his urinary issues. Neither helped. We thought the spraying was behavioral, but now I feel its because his bladder bothers him and he associates the box with pain. When he would spray, he'd stand up and push push push like he was trying to pass urine and only a little would come out.

Good news is, he has been using the litter and burying his peepee. So maybe returning to old habits is a good sign.


I'm a firm believer that raw foods solve most digestive issues in dogs & cats. Cats & Dogs were never meant to digest cooked foods, well not in large amounts like many people feed them. Try a raw diet to see how he does



Also, from 2007 to last month, Irwin was raw fed. My 2 labs are, and I had switched him over because I feel the same way about pet foods (my labs do excellent on a raw diet)....but his bladder still needed to be cleaned out, I dont know if the raw contributed to his problems or they were already there.

The vet told me that while a grain free diet is beneficial, its not ALL about grains, its about the PH of his urine, because a high or low PH can contribute to the formation of stones/crystals, and the prescription diet is designed for that, the raw one isn't.


Does not sound like he is checking out as yet. You AND THE VET just need to find a way for him to feel more comfortable.

Thanks!! We are blending his meals with a cup of water because he never drinks water, so hopefully we can keep him flushed out....and we'll try some supplements. Its just very frustrating!

Here he is last night

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs405.snc3/24545_1347245446138_1381370960_31146137_1256424_n. jpg

I;m also trying to keep him stress free, he's in a room with his mom who I also own and I bought him a bunch of kitty play centers to keep him busy.

[kb2yjx]

Like you, right now, our Samson is fighting a bad UTI/blockage, and has the thickening of the bladder walls. He is getting Elavil, Dasaquin, Fish Oil, and is still on Baytril(for a few more days. He eats his canned SO with 30cc's of spring water added. Sam is not even 2 years old. It was because of a blockage, that he was able to be rescued. He was near death when he was found on the farm. Like you we are willing to do all we can for Samson. He has been on the Elavil for several months and is doing well on it. No lethargy or irritability. Just do NOT even consider combing me(he does get combed)!! I have to admit, there was a time, when putting Samson to sleep was considered. However, Barry and I talked about it, and decided to give him more time and see what happens. I just hope Samson and Irwin will be around for a long time....Hugs and Prayers!!! Sandra

[katladyd]

Moosmom, I am so sorry you had a negative experience with amitryptiline. I have had the exact opposite happen with Ming, he no longer fights with Mac, and he become even more of a super love cat than he was before. My vet said this med has different reactions with different cats. She said 60% of cats do very well on it, but for the other 40%, it is just as you described. I believe that this med has saved Ming's life, because he had chronic blockages and his bladder wall had thickened as well. He is such a happy, healthy, cat now that I would recommend that she should at least talk to her vet about it. When it works, and the dosage has to be tinkered with a bit, it works wonders!

[JustineNYC]

Moosmom, I am so sorry you had a negative experience with amitryptiline. I have had the exact opposite happen with Ming, he no longer fights with Mac, and he become even more of a super love cat than he was before. My vet said this med has different reactions with different cats. She said 60% of cats do very well on it, but for the other 40%, it is just as you described. I believe that this med has saved Ming's life, because he had chronic blockages and his bladder wall had thickened as well. He is such a happy, healthy, cat now that I would recommend that she should at least talk to her vet about it. When it works, and the dosage has to be tinkered with a bit, it works wonders!

Its an anti-depressant so Im wondering why it helps thickening of the bladder wall? Does it make them high to the point where they don't care about their bladder?

[Catty1]

Justine, my sister was on elavil to relax spasms in her bladder (she had MS). If the bladder and sphincter muscles spasm and contract, it will feel like one really has to GO but can't, because of the muscles tightening.

It doesn't change the thickness of the bladder wall, but helps the UTI problem in other ways.

It is a tricyclic anti-depressant, used in humans and other animals. Most find it may space them a tad, but it is not a sedating med (in my memory).

It sounds like you have tried it, though, and it didn't work. Or is your vet trying it again now that the stones are all flushed out?

Irwin is a SUPER handsome boy and looks like a very beloved kitty. He is sure to heal well with his meowmie's love and devotion.:):love:

[JustineNYC]

Justine, my sister was on elavil to relax spasms in her bladder (she had MS). If the bladder and sphincter muscles spasm and contract, it will feel like one really has to GO but can't, because of the muscles tightening.

It doesn't change the thickness of the bladder wall, but helps the UTI problem in other ways.

It is a tricyclic anti-depressant, used in humans and other animals. Most find it may space them a tad, but it is not a sedating med (in my memory).

It sounds like you have tried it, though, and it didn't work. Or is your vet trying it again now that the stones are all flushed out?

Irwin is a SUPER handsome boy and looks like a very beloved kitty. He is sure to heal well with his meowmie's love and devotion.:):love:


Thanks for the explanation!! No he is not on it anymore, but like you said, maybe we should try it again now that he's all flushed out. He was put on it for spraying but he has stones then so maybe thats why it didn't help. The vet we have now is not a fan of that but rather the Clomicalm....I am going to bring it up to our vet tho! If anything, we will go back to the vet that put him on it. Thanks!

BTW, good news is he seems better today, not as much in and out of the litter.

[Taz_Zoee]

I'm glad to read he is a bit better today. I am still hoping a solution can be found to help him be comfortable at least. He is such a handsome boy. :)

[columbine]

Mixing extra water in with Irwin's food is an excellent idea! You can also try putting extra water bowls of different types in different locations. Smudge won't drink from a stainless bowl in the kitchen, but he enjoys drinking from a glass bowl in the living room. :confused: You could get him a cat drinking fountain, too - some cats prefer running water, as it's how their ancestors chose clean, safe drinking water in the wild. (I got one for Smudge, but he was scared of it. You just never know!)

You can also add Cosequin (http://www.healthypets.com/coforca80ca.html) to his wet food. It's a chicken/fish flavored powder that soothes and protects the inside of the bladder and urethra, although it's primarily sold as a joint supplement!

Grain-free food is a good way to keep a cat's urinary pH high enough to avoid irritation. There are a lot of grain-free brands available nowadays, and many pet stores will give you samples to see if your cat will eat a specific food. Smudge enjoys Indigo Moon kibble (by Solid Gold), and gets his meds mixed into Soulistic canned food.

Love, Columbine

[smokey the elder]

I have a foster with the same condition. Stress can bring it on; she had been bouncing from foster home to foster home. I had her on Cosequin for awhile; now she's not on everything and thriving. But, every cat is different.

I think the best barometer for a cat's well-being is: how well is he/she eating? That has been a solid indicator for my cats; which have had a wide range of health issues. If Irwin is eating, drinking, and doesn't have major behavioral changes, I would say just manage his condition as best you can. Good luck and give him a scritch for me, please.:love:

[JustineNYC]

I have a foster with the same condition. Stress can bring it on; she had been bouncing from foster home to foster home. I had her on Cosequin for awhile; now she's not on everything and thriving. But, every cat is different.

I think the best barometer for a cat's well-being is: how well is he/she eating? That has been a solid indicator for my cats; which have had a wide range of health issues. If Irwin is eating, drinking, and doesn't have major behavioral changes, I would say just manage his condition as best you can. Good luck and give him a scritch for me, please.:love:

Actually I posted previously he NEVER DRINKS, but I have great news!!! I took the vets advice and went to Petco and got a kitty fountain and HE DRANK!!

Im totally shocked.

And I agree with the appetite thing, his appetite is great, he would eat all day if I let him. He also still plays with his little furry mice.


I also try and pay attention to behavioral things like, does he get up and sit on the window ledge to watch the birds anymore? Which he does.


He's still in and out of the litter, but he had surgery 3 days ago, so I want to wait and see if it gets better. I will pick up the Cosequin though. The dr is going to call me for an update tomorrow, so we'll see what she says.

Here he is this afternoon, he doesn't look terribly uncomfortable..

http://hphotos-sjc1.fbcdn.net/hs405.snc3/24545_1348832485813_1381370960_31150323_4918466_n. jpg

[Catty1]

I dunno...looks pretty tense to me! :p:D

http://hphotos-sjc1.fbcdn.net/hs405.snc3/24545_1348832485813_1381370960_31150323_4918466_n. jpg

What a gorgeous boy. I am so happy to hear he is doing so well - and DRINKING WATER! This all bodes very well. :):love::love:

[krazyaboutkatz]

He looks so happy and content.:) I'm so glad to hear that he's drinking too. Hopefully he'll continue to do well.:)

[JustineNYC]

I wanted to update that I spoke with his doctor this morning. She said the blood in his urine and the having the urge to pee is normal right now until his inflammation goes away, his surgery was not even a week ago.

I asked her about the thickening of the bladder wall and if she thinks its inhumane to have him live like this and she said no, we just have to find a way to manage it.

She is open to trying the Elavil or Clomicalm again, but wants to wait til he is healed so we can really see if he is going to have the urge to pee once his bladder heals.

She is real happy the fountain worked and he is drinking water too.

Anyway, I wanted to thank everyone for their input! I knew you guys would understand my situation and concern! Thanks a bunch!