Sex abuse in church [Archive]

Marigold2

03-25-2010, 11:43 AM

http://d.yimg.com/a/p/abc/20100322/videolthumb.bebb54ef9549041ea586dec21206479d.jpg?x =213&y=141&xc=1&yc=1&wc=220&hc=146&q=85&sig=XwkYwV1Rk.OgJ8GsRgvK_g-- Play Video (http://us.rd.yahoo.com/dailynews/external/abc/av_abc_gma/21e088f1e8ad213a4b8715785dd31cca/35542607;_ylt=Agmunb1Krfb6cycgMoeEmZJn.3QA;_ylu=X3 oDMTE5bTNuNTRwBHBvcwMxBHNlYwN5bl9yX3RvcF92aWRlbwRz bGsDcG9wZWFwb2xvZ2l6/*http://news.yahoo.com/video/world-15749633/18734054)ABC News (http://news.yahoo.com/video/abc-news/good-morning-america) – Pope Apologizes for Sex Abuse Scandal

Slideshow:Vatican (http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/Vatican/ss/events/t_ts/102209wl_v_vatican)

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By Philip Pullella Philip Pullella – Thu Mar 25, 8:57 am ET
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) – The Vatican did not discipline a Catholic priest accused of sexually abusing up to 200 deaf boys in the United States from the 1950s to the 1970s as Church laws do not require automatic punishment, its spokesman said on Thursday.
The New York Times reported on Thursday that the Vatican did not defrock Rev. Lawrence Murphy in the late 1990s despite receiving clear warnings from his bishops that his case was serious and could embarrass the Church.
The report came amid mounting allegations of sexual abuse by priests in Europe and pressure on bishops, mostly in Ireland, to resign for failing to report cases to civil authorities.
Among 25 internal Church documents the Times posted on its website was a 1996 letter about Murphy to Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, then the Vatican's top doctrinal official and now Pope Benedict, showing he was informed of his case.
Ratzinger's deputy first advised a secret disciplinary trial but later reversed that in 1998 after Murphy appealed directly to Ratzinger for clemency. The priest died later that year.
Vatican spokesman Rev. Federico Lombardi said in a statement that Murphy had broken the law but a civil probe into complaints against him in the mid-1970s had been dropped and the Vatican only learned of the allegations 20 years later.
"The canonical (Church law) question presented to the Congregation was unrelated to any potential civil or criminal proceedings against Father Murphy," Lombardi said.
"In such cases, the Code of Canon Law does not envision automatic penalties."
EXTENSIVE PAPER TRAIL
The 1996 letter to Ratzinger from the then Milwaukee Archbishop Rembert Weakland was not answered, the Times said.
After eight months, Weakland wrote a second letter to Ratzinger's deputy at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (CDF), Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone, who is now a cardinal and the pope's secretary of state, or Vatican prime minister.
According to the documents on the Times website, Bertone first advised Weakland in 1997 to discipline Murphy according to a 1962 Vatican document ordering secrecy in handling cases of sexual misconduct by priests.
Murphy appealed directly to Ratzinger in 1998, saying he had repented for his sins and, at 72, was in poor health. Three months later, Bertone backtracked and advised only "pastoral measures" to deal with him. These measures are internal disciplinary steps such as barring him from public ministry.
The diocese of Superior, Wisconsin, where Murphy had moved in 1974 after his abuse cases had surfaced in Milwaukee, rejected this advice and proceeded to organize an internal trial. That work stopped when Murphy died four months later.
Lombardi said the Vatican did not tell bishops not to report abuse to civil authorities but critics note the 1962 document in Latin, known as Crimen sollicitationis ("crime of solicitation") did not specifically say they should.
The critics say bishops steeped in the Church's traditional culture of secrecy would assume they should avoid embarrassing it by going public with such issues.
DAMAGE AMONG THE DEAF

The letters obtained by the Times from lawyers representing five abuse victims suing the Milwaukee archdiocese showed that Weakland and Bishop Raphael Fliss of Superior stressed to the Vatican the damage Murphy had done among deaf Catholics he ministered to as teacher and head of a school for the deaf.
A social worker's notes from a confidential Milwaukee archdiocese interview with Murphy in 1993 showed he admitted abusing 19 boys but said allegations of about 200 cases were "likely to be fairly accurate."
In Rome, leaders of the Survivors Network of those abused by Priests (SNAP) demonstrated in front of St. Peter's Square holding up pictures of Murphy and some of his victims.
In a letter to Irish Catholics last week, Pope Benedict stressed the Church must cooperate with civil authorities in investigating sexual abuse allegations. The Vatican's chief prosecutor for such cases told an Italian Catholic newspaper this month that Church courts tried only about 20 percent of such cases secretly referred to Rome. About 60 percent of them ended with only internal sanctions
This is why I won't give a dime or even a penny to this church, why is this allowed, why do Catholics allow this to happen? Why are they allowed to hide behind the church?
They should go to the police and be charged, being a priest does not mean you can abuse and abuse again, although this article states otherwise.

caseysmom

03-25-2010, 11:59 AM

Once again you are painting a broad group of people with one brush stroke.

Marigold2

03-25-2010, 12:32 PM

We too had scandal in our church. First thing I did was stop the money flow. Nothing makes people stand up and notice like having money taken from them. And then I left the church and made it known why.
Actually everyone knew why. The priniciple and the second grade teacher both married where where having an affair. I belonged to a church and school, Lutheran. The second grade teacher (who was my daughters teacher that year) was married to the history teacher at the high school (he was my son's teacher at the time) they left the state when this all came out. The prinicple stayed on.
Many of us left the church in disgust and disappointment. We felt that our children where being short changed and we were being lied to.
This has to be cleaned up inside the church by the people who stand up and say this has to stop. You have the power to make change.
Deaf boys molested............................... That is pretty freaking sad.
My question is and remains why wasn't something done?

Cataholic

03-25-2010, 12:33 PM

I typically would agree with you, CM, and I surely don't agree with a lot of stuff that Marigold posts for what is usually an overly inflammatory post. However, in this case, as it relates to the Catholic Church's 'official' stance on the sexual abuse, she is pretty right on.

Sure, the Church's stance on sexual abuse is that it is wrong. No one would disagree with that. BUT, the Church's stance on what has happened, and sometimes what the Church KNEW was happening goes beyond the pale.

If one cannot blame the Catholic church, whom can one blame?

lizbud

03-25-2010, 07:58 PM

The Catholic church today is not the same as it was in years past.
The facts uncovered reveal a very wrongheaded approach to dealing
with transgressions by the Clergy. They are not just moral wrongs, they
are civil wrongs against it youngest members.

In this media age, these wrongs will not stay hidden.

wombat2u2004

03-27-2010, 05:35 AM

This stuff you hear on the media is but the tip if the iceburg.
Nothing like this has ever happened in my direct Protestant family, and why ???? Because the ministers and lay preachers get married, have children, and lead normal lives outside of the church. Sure, I've heard of Anglican ministers having affairs....but don't lots of folks ??? It's not abuse of anything.....I'm sure their affair partners are quite willing. There is no law that criminalises an affair between two consenting adults.

Within the Catholic church it is different, as you do know. They have priests and nuns who are not allowed to marry (humans that is) and must take celibacy vows.
My first wife was Catholic, and her elder sister had an affair with a French Catholic priest when she was but a choir girl of 15. My ex brother in law, who entered Catholic college to become a priest, was so sexually abused by his teachers in his first year of studies, that he left.
They made no complaint, as 99.9% of those who are abused don't.
All of this is kept quite by the victims, and in my ex's family, the knowledge was only shared amongst family members.
So it goes on more than what you think....in fact, it is quite rampant within the Catholic church.

wombat2u2004

03-27-2010, 05:38 AM

Oh, and by the way. Ratzingers position within the church was to receive abuse reports and sweep them under the mat accordingly.
Now he is Pope.......
....the higher the position, the more responsibility......the more corruption.

kokopup

03-27-2010, 09:58 AM

lizbud

In this media age, these wrongs will not stay hidden.

I don't see anything happening because of the media coverage. These abuse cases have been in the news for decades with nothing new happening to make it change. It appears that the abuse is so rampant that the higher up's are covering the abuses of those under them. It is like a good old boys club where everyone covers for everyone else, because the offenses go all the way up to the top. Why else would this continue. The guilty are never held accountable for their wrongs.

Marigold2

03-27-2010, 10:14 AM

THIS HAS TO STOP. Yes I am shouting but my god we are talking about children being sexually abused. Is any crime uglier?
Who can stop this? The people who go to church, the people who put money in the collection box, that is who will stop it. If the everyday person stands up and demands this to stop and does not give the church money they will have no choice but to change for the church runs on money. No money, no church. Simple really.
What is that famous quote? All that evil requires is for good men to do nothing.
I beg all Catholics to stand up and do something. It is your duty to fix this. As a Catholic to stand by and do nothing is a crime in itself to man and God.
When the collection plate comes around instead of putting money in how about a note saying that you will give money to the church once again when this matter is resolved and child abuse is reported to the police and not sweep under the rug by our Pope. A man of God no he is a man of money.

pomtzu

03-27-2010, 10:14 AM

The Catholic Church is a rich nation all in itself, and makes it's own rules. Money talks, so is it any wonder why they get away with what they do??? :mad:

If some little Southern Baptist minister did something even remotely close to what some of these Catholic priests have done, the public would want to track him down and hang his sorry a$$ from the highest tree!

I am neither Catholic or Southern Baptist, but I would like to see the "proper" justice carried out, no matter what church they are affiliated with. Is it any wonder why so many people continue to leave the church? :confused::(

Alysser

03-27-2010, 10:53 AM

I am considered a Catholic, but I don't like religion, personally. I don't go to church, read the bible, etc. I don't do any of that. I believe in God to an extent, but I'm mostly all for science. I am sometimes ashamed for making confirmation 3 years ago...Creationism is all bs to me, but I see we're not here to debate that. This is one reason I don't like my own religion. I don't like the rules of the church, I don't like what goes one, and I most certainly do NOT like the control over all the people in the religion.

I agree, PomTzu. It really isn't surprising that so many people are leaving.

lizbud

03-27-2010, 01:20 PM

lizbud

03-27-2010, 01:25 PM

lizbud

I don't see anything happening because of the media coverage. These abuse cases have been in the news for decades with nothing new happening to make it change. It appears that the abuse is so rampant that the higher up's are covering the abuses of those under them. It is like a good old boys club where everyone covers for everyone else, because the offenses go all the way up to the top. Why else would this continue. The guilty are never held accountable for their wrongs.

The internet (media) has stories from all over the world. This shared
info shows the same thing happened in many countries. We didn't have
the instant access to news & info 30 -40 years ago. That's what I meant.

Karen

03-27-2010, 01:27 PM

Thankfully the culture in the Catholic Church in some areas is beginning to change, the change could not come fast enough for me. Being in the Boston area, even though I am not Catholic and never have been, this was a huge story several years ago, and the consequences are still being felt to this day.

pomtzu

03-27-2010, 01:49 PM

These abuses have nothing to do with priests & nun being married.
It has to do with pedophila. A pedophile can be married or single but
they still abuse children.

I may be wrong (it wouldn't be the 1st time), but I believe the point that Wom is trying to make, is that if priests were allowed to marry and have a relationship as such, that there would be less of this abuse. Yes - there are pedophiles, married and single, from all walks of life, and unfortunately it will continue, but I really believe that there would be a lot less among the clergy, if they were permitted to marry. And not only that, but perhaps more men of higher moral standards would join the priesthood if this was allowed.
Just stating my opinion - not looking for a confrontation! :p

lizbud

03-27-2010, 05:11 PM

I may be wrong (it wouldn't be the 1st time), but I believe the point that Wom is trying to make, is that if priests were allowed to marry and have a relationship as such, that there would be less of this abuse. Yes - there are pedophiles, married and single, from all walks of life, and unfortunately it will continue, but I really believe that there would be a lot less among the clergy, if they were permitted to marry. And not only that, but perhaps more men of higher moral standards would join the priesthood if this was allowed.
Just stating my opinion - not looking for a confrontation! :p

No problem, I understand.:D

I really don't think being married, or not ,has anything to do with being
a pedophile. The clergy don't abuse children because they can't marry.

Karen

03-27-2010, 05:16 PM

No problem, I understand.:D

I really don't think being married, or not ,has anything to do with being
a pedophile. The clergy don't abuse children because they can't marry.

No, but pedophiles may gravitate toward jobs that have to do with children, sadly.

pomtzu

03-27-2010, 05:41 PM

No problem, I understand.:D

I really don't think being married, or not ,has anything to do with being
a pedophile. The clergy don't abuse children because they can't marry.

But I think that if they were allowed a healthy sexual relationship with a wife, they would be less likely to gravitate towards children. I'm rather certain that most don't start out or intend to abuse children, but that it is done out of sexual frustration, it escalates, and there you are - a monster is born. I'm in no way defending their actions - they are monsters and need to be dealt with accordingly. I just think there would be less of them if the Church would change their rules and requirements for priests.

Yikes - and I'm the one that doesn't like to debate politics or religion!!!

lizbud

03-27-2010, 06:19 PM

No, but pedophiles may gravitate toward jobs that have to do with children, sadly.

Now, that could be true. These people who abuse children don't have
"normal" sexual desires for heterosexual relationships. They are deviates
from the normal.

wombat2u2004

03-27-2010, 07:27 PM

These abuses have nothing to do with priests & nun being married.
It has to do with pedophila. A pedophile can be married or single but
they still abuse children.

Yes, it has a lot to do with it. In fact it has everything to do with it.
These people cannot live a normal sexual life as do those outside of the clergy, so therefore they must conceal it. And what better way is there to conceal it, than to target children who they frighten into silence ????
As I said before...I have seen it within my own ex family....these were vulnerable children....the young...those who are still trying to figure out what life is all about, and what is right and what is wrong. The priests know this, and exploit it accordingly.

A story........I don't know how true this is, but I'll let you figure it out.
Back in the 1970's, when I was a shopfitter carpenter, I had a labourer (all of us tradesmen had one that was assigned to us). My labourer Teddy, was Maltese, and I worked with him for some 5 years, and became very good friends with him. Teddy hated the church, he was a very strict Catholic and paid his tithes accordingly, and it was 10% of his wages. Of course he kept paying and paying, and did so because it was EXPECTED of him, to maintain the guise of being a good Catholic.
One day he told me, that in Malta there were these convents that trained nuns. When their training was finished, the priests would come along and pick out the most prettiest of the nuns, and have them posted to the Vatican....you can guess what for.
Like I said....I can't vouch for the truth of this.
But I did know Teddy, and he was a pretty honest sort of a guy.

wombat2u2004

03-27-2010, 07:30 PM

Now, that could be true. These people who abuse children don't have
"normal" sexual desires for heterosexual relationships. They are deviates
from the normal.

No no no....they DO have normal sexual desires. They are the same as everyone else. But that changes because of circumstance.
They cannot have a normal sexual realationship, so therefore they take the only way out, and have an abnormal sexual relationship.

Catty1

03-27-2010, 07:36 PM

Marigold2

03-27-2010, 08:59 PM

wombat2u2004

03-27-2010, 09:06 PM

But Wom - isn't that like saying the pedophiles among us can choose to marry, and therefore won't prey on children?

I think the one point made was that the Catholic clergy is attractive to pedophiles because they don't have to hide behind a marriage...and they have a lot of access to their victims.

I agree that there likely are affairs of all kinds in the Catholic church, but I bet pedophilia is of a higher incidence than in other churches, or the public at large.

Churches that welcome pastors with families will attract that element. Less so for pedophiles!

Well yeah, I suppose that church does attract pedo's......but to what extent ???? Is every priest that ends up a pedo have a past as a pedo ???
I doubt it. I suppose some had that in mind when they first entered the church, but I would bet that would be a very low percentage of them.
Most of those priests entered their training as teenagers. Usually because of family expectations that to be good Catholics, one of their children be it male or female enter the church. If that is the case, then why would they have been pedo's then ???
And isn't it true that most perversions need to time to grow and be nutured ??? I mean if mummy and daddy EXPECTED their son to give his life to the church, and then took him along as a 16-17 year old, and shoved him into the local convent where he was sexually abused by his superiors, how long do you figure it would take before he knew that the only way he could get sex, was in the same manner ????
I believe that it is circumstance. These people can't lead an ordinary sex life, so they must seek it secretly, and what is a better opportunity than to take advantage of those who won't speak up ???

king2005

03-27-2010, 10:22 PM

Why are priets not allowed to marry? The truth will surprise many, it's not because they are married to God and are suppose to be pure of thought. Hundreds of years ago priets were allowed to marry, I believe 39 Popes were.
It had to do with the church wanting to keep more money for themselves and not wanting to support the priest and his many kids, mistress and more kids. Money, money, money it's all about the money.

I hope I don't upset anyone with "my personal opinion"

Todays Church (I cannot speak for the past as I HONESTLY don't know it) is nothing more then a money hungry Cult. Thats how I see it.

I am no longer religious as it was forced down my throat by crazy teachers & crazy church goers. The ONLY person who was on my side was Fr. Sebastien. He never tried to cram it down my throat, never got mad if I didn't pay, pray or believe. He said the ONLY thing that was important, was for me to be a good moral person... & to this day, that is the rule I live by.

I am a strong believer that the lack of marriage plays a huge part in the molestation/rape issues. How many priests have been caught for paying hookers? I've heard of several, how many aren't caught? ALL mammals have a huge drive for sexual relations, esp males. Its all related to hormones.

Take elephants for example. Take an intact male & keep him penned up alone from the females.. What dose he do out of sexual frustration? He humps anything he can get on top of (cars, toys, different species, etc)..

Horses will do the same thing
Dogs will do the same thing
Monkeys & Apes will do the same things
& so on...

Human males are no different. After a while their sexual frustrations are going to cause them to snap & do crazy things.. which in our society is illegal.

Maybe neutering (not a V.) Priests is the way to go. It generally solves other male mammals from getting sexually frustrated, as there are NO hormones to cause it. Seriously... What do Priests need them for anyways?

blue

03-28-2010, 12:11 AM

The Catholic Church isnt infallible. For all of its faults the church still helps more then it harms.

wombat2u2004

03-28-2010, 05:12 AM

The Catholic Church isnt infallible. For all of its faults the church still helps more then it harms.

It does....but first it helps itself.

Marigold2

03-28-2010, 11:57 AM

I feel for all the good Catholics who go to church and put their faith into their priest and pope. This is very painful, it goes to the very root of your upbringing and family tradion.
However the church is a business, and it runs on money, greed and sexs.
I agree with many posts, not allowing priests to marry is not how humans are wired.
God made us sexual creatures. One problem that I have seen is the vast number of gay catholic priests. In fact I can't remember a straight one in years.
Here is a place the gay can hide, hide and live their lives amoung other gay men.
Why wasn't Frances interested in girls as a teenager his very devote parents wondered, but now they are so thrilled he wants to be a priest.
Bingo. It's a perfect cover and yes it can lead to sexual frustration and secert shame, it's all so horrid.
One of the worst things about sexual abuse is the life long mental problems victims suffer. When they do speak of abuse 20, 30 40 years in their past the tears flow and the pain is raw and bleeding.
They lose their innocence, trust, hope, joy, happiness. It is not just the physical act that haunts them but the gulit and shame that they suffer all their lives. It is a death, a death of the soul.
I have a dear friend who's daughter was molested by her uncle and he also molested his two daughters. I have three cousins who were molested by their father and another family member who also was molested by her uncle.
These young women were changed, changed profoundly. Every vice you can think of they did afterwards. Drugs, abuse to family, thief, prostitution, you name it and these girls did it, jail time. It runied families, it ruined lives. Sex abuse is a lifetime of mental pain.
Lets do what we can to stop this.

Miss Z

03-28-2010, 05:21 PM

Maybe neutering (not a V.) Priests is the way to go. It generally solves other male mammals from getting sexually frustrated, as there are NO hormones to cause it. Seriously... What do Priests need them for anyways?

Now you mention it, routine castration has been part of many old religious divisions even up to the early 20th century, if I recall correctly. Perhaps they had it right in the past! It certaintly would be a rather fitting punishment for these priests, or indeed any serious sexual predator.

king2005

03-28-2010, 06:05 PM

Now you mention it, routine castration has been part of many old religious divisions even up to the early 20th century, if I recall correctly. Perhaps they had it right in the past! It certaintly would be a rather fitting punishment for these priests, or indeed any serious sexual predator.

I think getting it done beforehand is the way to go. Once a priest has been a priest for 5yrs, its mandatory to have your nads removed.

I truly believe most of those priests never planned on harming anyone. Raging hormones will cause you to do sick evil things, EVEN if you are a good person.

Take my dad for example... he was starting to go down a very bad path before I was born, but luckily he saw what path he was going down & sought help right away. He saw a shrink to help, then had some surgery to help (after my sister was born) & went on medication to lower his drive greatly.

Please note, he didn't commit any crimes (no humans of any age were involved)s, but he was damn close. To this day it has haunted him. & because of what didn't happen I was subjected to horrible evils when I was 14yrs old. Its sooo much fun being lured into a room & then have 2 adults (mother & CAS) try to force you to say "daddy touched me"... If I wasn't a level headed stubborn child I would have caved & said whatever it took to get them to stop yelling at me. Sorry not gonna lie about something like that... but how many scared kids would?

Kinda makes you wonder how many false cases there really are out there...

My point is, is that my dad IS a good man, he's not a predator by far, but his hormones were going to make him one. So this is why I believe hormones control us more then we'd like to think.

Also look at a lot of the Priests that are doing the crimes, they are fairly old, no? & been trapped in a raging hormonal body for decades with no release, no? Ticking time bombs.

Doesn't the same sort of thing happen to many dogs that are tied up all their lives? After several yrs of nothing but confinement & isolation, the once friendly dog is now a raging psycho path.

Lets also look at Zoos. What happens when you put wild animals into small boring pens? They loose their minds & do abnormal things.

Lets look at circuses. What happens when you confine a wild animal to a tiny pen & force it to do stupid retarded things all its life? They loose their minds & become milling machines.

yes yes yes, they are very different situations, but just look what hormones & confinement & isolation does to a wild animal. Humans are animals, we ALL react very very similar & when we snap or go nuts, watch out, because we are also very smart animals, so we are good at hiding things.. kinda like a sick cat I suppose.

pomtzu

03-28-2010, 06:32 PM

Being the civilized people that we are, I think that most people would find physical castration to be barbaric. I know that I would! Chemical castration however, is something to be considered. It is already in practice in some instances, but who has the power to decide: who-what-where-when and why. I don't see it becoming a routine practice to be used on sexual offenders - real or potential - any time soon - if ever.

wombat2u2004

03-28-2010, 06:35 PM

wombat2u2004

03-28-2010, 06:39 PM

pomtzu

03-28-2010, 06:46 PM

But what do we do with women who are guilty of the same abuse ????

They can be altered chemically also........
It's pretty easy to throw a woman's hormones out of whack. Just ask any one of us who has experienced it naturally. :p

pomtzu

03-28-2010, 06:48 PM

No, you can't neuter people because of the situation they are in.
Not unless they consent to it.
Where would you draw the line ????
The answers to the whole problem are simple..........
1. Allow priests and nuns to marry.

I think that you and I are the only ones here that see this as a very real and simple solution to eliminate a great deal of the problem in the Church.

wombat2u2004

03-28-2010, 07:08 PM

They can be altered chemically also........
It's pretty easy to throw a woman's hormones out of whack. Just ask any one of us who has experienced it naturally. :p

Is that true ????
My wife told me that once.
I think she was just trying to fool me :D:D

Asiel

03-28-2010, 08:25 PM

No, you can't neuter people because of the situation they are in.
Not unless they consent to it.
Where would you draw the line ????
The answers to the whole problem are simple..........
1. Allow priests and nuns to marry.
2. If individuals of a particular church are beyond the reach of the Common Law, then change that to ensure those who default are subjected to the same laws as everyone else in the community.
3. Increase the penalties for those who are found guilty of such crimes.
4. Ensure that the church pays adequate compensation to the victims.
(If the Catholic church has to pay out big bucks for every compensation case, then they will soon change their minds about protecting their own.)

Easy peasy !!!!

The only thing I can agree with here is No.1.

As for applying No.2 you can change the laws all you want and make them subject to the same laws as the community but it wouldn't change a thing because the churches would still protect them and the families of the abused would end up the victims again and again. I've been a witness to a few families who tried to seek justice and the threats they received from their church were unbelievable. And did you ever see an abused child decide to finally confide in his parents but cry and scream not to say anything because he was threatend to be cut up with a knife if he told?

No.3 doesn't apply because there are no penalties. the only penalty a guilty priest has ever received was to be changed from that parish to another where he continued his vile practices. and on and on.

No.4 might apply to a few priests but the ones who get off scott free outnumber the ones that are nailed and the little compensation the family receives is laughable considering those boys are scarred for life

In the area we live in there are numerous Catholic churches that have been sold because of lack of attendance, you can't keep a church open with no people supporting it.
We used to be faithful churchgoers until the lid blew off the whole thing. So they not only harm children but they destroy a lot of peoples' faith. Most of our relatives and friends don't attend church anymore.

Really don't know what the answer is but maybe letting nuns and priests marry would be the first step to take.

wombat2u2004

03-29-2010, 04:33 AM

The only thing I can agree with here is No.1.

As for applying No.2 you can change the laws all you want and make them subject to the same laws as the community but it wouldn't change a thing because the churches would still protect them and the families of the abused would end up the victims again and again. I've been a witness to a few families who tried to seek justice and the threats they received from their church were unbelievable. And did you ever see an abused child decide to finally confide in his parents but cry and scream not to say anything because he was threatend to be cut up with a knife if he told?

No.3 doesn't apply because there are no penalties. the only penalty a guilty priest has ever received was to be changed from that parish to another where he continued his vile practices. and on and on.

No.4 might apply to a few priests but the ones who get off scott free outnumber the ones that are nailed and the little compensation the family receives is laughable considering those boys are scarred for life

In the area we live in there are numerous Catholic churches that have been sold because of lack of attendance, you can't keep a church open with no people supporting it.
We used to be faithful churchgoers until the lid blew off the whole thing. So they not only harm children but they destroy a lot of peoples' faith. Most of our relatives and friends don't attend church anymore.

Really don't know what the answer is but maybe letting nuns and priests marry would be the first step to take.

2 is quite possible,
3 and 4 would follow on.

Cataholic

03-29-2010, 09:32 AM

I am a strong believer that the lack of marriage plays a huge part in the molestation/rape issues. How many priests have been caught for paying hookers? I've heard of several, how many aren't caught? ALL mammals have a huge drive for sexual relations, esp males. Its all related to hormones.

Human males are no different. After a while their sexual frustrations are going to cause them to snap & do crazy things.. which in our society is illegal.

I believe that research has shown, time and again, that rape is NOT a sexual issue.

Molestation is not a sexual issue...it is a deviant mindset.

Being gay does not make someone a pedophile. There is simply no relation to one's sexual preference and molestation. Gays like men or women....pedophiles like CHILDREN.

Allowing or disallowing priests to marry doesn't alter the deviant mindset of molestation. Molestation is NOT caused by some pent up sexual frustration.

Wacked is wacked...whether you are married or not.

Cataholic

03-29-2010, 09:41 AM

2. If individuals of a particular church are beyond the reach of the Common Law, then change that to ensure those who default are subjected to the same laws as everyone else in the community.

Here, in the US, priests are NOT beyond the reach of the common (or statutory) law. I think most abuse statutes are now codified, rather than simply a result of the common law.

Miss Z

03-29-2010, 09:46 AM

As always, a most excellent post, Johanna.

Castration is drastic but I could certainly see the minute chance of eunuchs returning to the church before priests and nuns were allowed to marry, certainly those in the higher ranking positions of authority. I highly doubt the Vatican would be swayed on that one. I believe they take this belief from a rather literal interpretation from the book of Matthew, although being atheist, I do not know it to quote it.

But, as to whatever solves the issue addressed in the OP, the floor remains open. I think the only thing that can be agreed on thus far is a more rapid and fitting course of action for those caught.

king2005

03-29-2010, 09:54 AM

Catty1

03-29-2010, 11:15 AM

Abusers have often been abused themselves.

If a number of these priests came up through the ranks after being members of a Catholic congregation with a pedophile priest, they will abuse also.

I would hope the Catholic Church would put in place an "amnesty" for abusive priests to come forward and be defrocked with some dignity (which they only deserve if they confess up front rather than being caught), and to get those children (mostly boys) into counselling immediately. I haven't read about any pro-active measures, but I hope some are soon in place.

RICHARD

03-29-2010, 11:49 AM

I was an altar boy and never saw any abuse IN the church.

From what I undertstand, it usually happened in the RECTORY.:confused::eek::o

JenBKR

03-29-2010, 12:34 PM

I was an altar boy and never saw any abuse IN the church.

From what I undertstand, it usually happened in the RECTORY.:confused::eek::o

RICHARD! :eek::eek: ;)

I'm not Catholic, and I don't really understand why priests can't marry, although I am not sure if letting them marry would make a difference. Pedophiles are everywhere, I'm sorry to say. They are attracted to children, they understand that society thinks it's wrong but they don't; they actually see it as 'loving' children. Ever hear of NAMBLA? Google it sometime, if you can stomach it. This is a serious problem all over the world.

chocolatepuppy

03-29-2010, 05:11 PM

RICHARD

03-29-2010, 07:30 PM

RICHARD! :eek::eek: ;)

I'm not Catholic, and I don't really understand why priests can't marry, although I am not sure if letting them marry would make a difference. Pedophiles are everywhere, I'm sorry to say. They are attracted to children, they understand that society thinks it's wrong but they don't; they actually see it as 'loving' children. Ever hear of NAMBLA? Google it sometime, if you can stomach it. This is a serious problem all over the world.

LOL, Not THAT rectory....:eek::o:(

------------------

Howard Stern used to do a rant/bit about NAMBLA. Those are some sick people.

-----------------------

I find it funny that so many women have opinions on boys being abused.:confused: I'd feel daunted to comment about women being raped.

I never have heard about women being raped by nuns. The nuns I remember were ugly.

Anyway.

Child abusers are opportunists.

It really has to do with putting themselves in a place where they can abuse kids (boys) with the least scrutiny.

If you want to steal car parts, you don't work at Victoria's Secret.

If you want to steal CDs, you don't work at McDonald's.

People put way too much thought into the idea that priests, coaches, teachers abuse kids.

I worked with a few doctors in my time and was not surprised that they were hop/speed/dope heads.

It just makes getting drugs that much easier.

Same thing with the way things roll in real life.

There was a female teacher here in El Lay that got caught banging around with a student. She turned herself in because she was feeling guilty. Men are wired differently, some of us don't give a shoot.

--------------

The Catholic Church runs on fear and humiliation.

God is always watching you and you will go to he!! for simple stuff., That used to be hammered into you soul while you were at school. If you came home and told mom about something the priests pulled off, chances are you'd get cuffed about the ear and told to shut up and pray to god for lying.

Had a convo with my mom about priests in her time and just recently when the allegations here in El Lay came up.

I heard the stories about a priest back in the 40's/50's who had tales told of his 'transgressions' and how the church bounced his nasty arse out to another parish/area.

She also told me of another recent priest, at the church they had dances at. Seems he was a lady's man and like to hug the woman. And the women loved him because he was handsome and wore a uniform.

There also was a priest that impregnated a couple of girls, I can't comment on that story, because I have no woman parts.

I have seen them close up, but still cannot comment about them.:confused::o

There's way too much generalization when it comes to classifying the crimes.
Let's just call a pig, a pig and deal with it accordingly.

The law kinda lumps them all into a group and they are all give general penalties.

I am just talking about the males, I can't comment on the hot teachers, that most of us boys fantasized about.

I do have a great 6th grade story about my hot CATHOLIC SCHOOL teacher.

But, I digress......

The problem is simple. It's just like any organization.

If the employees are acting stupid, the company hides it.

Our moral outrage is adjusted by who they are and what crime they have commited and who they have commited them against.

Kids should be protected. That is a given.

Most of the people that were molested years ago and kept their mouths shut for decades? I have a problem with them. I found out that god don't give no one a pass for so long, keeping theirs mouths shut was THEIR sin. I would have shouted it from the mountain tops.

(NO, I DO NOT BLAME THEM FOR THE ABUSE. I BLAME them for living a screwed up life and not doing anything about it sooner....)

CMs mostly prey on the kids that start out at the back of the pack. They sweep up the stragglers in marathon of life. We just have to take care of our own and never let the children be the 'last'.

Part of the problem is putting so much trust into cops, priests, doctors and some of the politicians we have right now in Washington.

LOL, I had toss that in.:D

Catty1

03-29-2010, 11:05 PM

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/03/truth-to-power.html#more

Truth To Power

18 Mar 2010 08:45 pm

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20120a9512656970b-550wi
BENEDICT AndreasSolaro:Getty

From: The Atlantic

Hans Kung, the greatest Catholic theologian of our time:

Is it not time for Pope Benedict XVI himself to acknowledge his share of responsibility, instead of whining about a campaign against his person? No other person in the Church has had to deal with so many cases of abuse crossing his desk. Here are some reminders:

In his eight years as a professor of theology in Regensburg, in close contact with his brother Georg, the capellmeister of the Regensburger Domspatzen, Ratzinger can hardly have been ignorant about what went on in the choir and its boarding--school. This was much more than an occasional slap in the face, there are charges of serious physical violence and even sexual abuse.

In his five years as Archbishop of Munich, repeated cases of sexual abuse at least by one priest transferred to his Archdiocese have come to light. His loyal Vicar General, my classmate Gerhard Gruber, has taken full responsibility for the handling of this case, but that is hardly an excuse for the Archbishop, who is ultimately responsible for the administration of his diocese.

In his 24 years as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, from around the world, all cases of grave sexual offences by clerics had to be reported, under strictest secrecy ("secretum pontificum"), to his curial office, which was exclusively responsible for dealing with them. Ratzinger himself, in a letter on "grave sexual crimes" addressed to all the bishops under the date of 18 May, 2001, warned the bishops, under threat of ecclesiastical punishment, to observe "papal secrecy" in such cases.

In his five years as Pope, Benedict XVI has done nothing to change this practice with all its fateful consequences.

Honesty demands that Joseph Ratzinger himself, the man who for decades has been principally responsible for the worldwide cover-up, at last pronounce his own "mea culpa".

As Bishop Tebartz van Elst of Limburg, in a radio address on March 14, put it: "Scandalous wrongs cannot be glossed over or tolerated, we need a change of attitude that makes room for the truth. Conversion and repentance begin when guilt is openly admitted, when contrition1 is expressed in deeds and manifested as such, when responsibility is taken, and the chance for a new beginning is seized upon."

(Photo: Andreas Solari/AFP/Getty.)

wombat2u2004

03-30-2010, 05:50 AM

Excellent post...I agree 100%

I don't !!!!
As usual, every separate perversion is neatly tucked away in little boxes with labels and pink ribbons around them, looks great on someone's bookshelf.
Rape is not a sexual issue ??? Who's the bright spark who thought that one up ??? I don't give a damn much about researchers, their opinions usually change with the seasons (and with how many bucks they can get).
Rape is a sexual issue !!!! It's about domination, sexual release, cruelty, abuse....but mostly, it is simply about sex.

Now onto the mainsteam of this thread............

The questions are.....How were the perversions of these people fostered ????
What are the real reasons why they have become the way they are ???
What can society do about them ???
Any answers ????

I can remember reading of a particular court case about some very high ranking English men who gathered monthly and committed sexual torture on whoever of that group was selected. A doctor was always in attendance to make sure that things never got too far (he was the one who broke down and spilled the beans to the public.)
Now, how was it that those men became what they are ????
Are you ready for this ?????
They were educated at British Public Schools....boarding schools of all boys.
No girls.....just all boys. And I don't know if you have any knowledge of what went on in those places.....but I do.....they were naught but male brothels, a breeding ground for a decadent upper class who practice horrific sexual acts on each other, and then released to commit the same outside of the system.

So how come children are sexually abused within the Catholic Church system by priests ??? (Where the priests are not allowed to be married. Surely those priests have built up sexual frustration).
How come boys are abused in the British Public School system by both their teachers and peers ??? (Where usually the teachers are unmarried and live in the same dorms as the boys, supposedly to instill in them their whacked out form of discipline. Surely they have built up sexual frustration.....including the boys who attend those institutions.)
Further.....how come that sexual abuse DOES NOT happen here where I come from ???? My city is full of private colleges, both male and female, in fact my daughter attends one of them. No abuse here. But then again....all of the teachers and dorm staff that I know, are all married !!!!!

So where are all these whackoes ??? All the sexual abusers ????
None here !!!!
But then again....they're married, probably happily, have families of their own.
No problems.

You know.....it's pretty simple when you stand back and look at the situation and not have your mind cluttered with research reports of information that in most cases are 99% preamble.

As Catty1 said "If a number of these priests came up through the ranks after being members of a Catholic congregation with a pedophile priest, they will abuse also."

I can't argue with that one.

wombat2u2004

03-30-2010, 05:52 AM

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/03/truth-to-power.html#more

Ratzinger has been hiding this stuff for years. ;)

Marigold2

03-30-2010, 10:29 AM

I thought that the pope before this one was a kind and holy man, this one I believe is evil. He reminds me so much of the Emporer in Star Wars. Evil hiding behind a hood. He should be tried and sent to jail.

Miss Z

03-30-2010, 11:03 AM

How come boys are abused in the British Public School system by both their teachers and peers ??? (Where usually the teachers are unmarried and live in the same dorms as the boys, supposedly to instill in them their whacked out form of discipline.

-----------

So where are all these whackoes ??? All the sexual abusers ????
None here !!!!
No problems.

What dookie. :p

On the topic, I do wonder how far the good old Pontifex fancied 'papal secrecy' would extend? In his several high-profile positions, he MUST have known someone would tell on him eventually, surely?

RICHARD

03-30-2010, 01:31 PM

I can remember reading of a particular court case about some very high ranking English men who gathered monthly and committed sexual torture on whoever of that group was selected. A doctor was always in attendance to make sure that things never got too far (he was the one who broke down and spilled the beans to the public.)

Was that covered under Brit health care rules?:confused::(;)

--------------

And why the break in the "secret double probation" rules?

Karen

03-30-2010, 02:55 PM

Further.....how come that sexual abuse DOES NOT happen here where I come from ???? My city is full of private colleges, both male and female, in fact my daughter attends one of them. No abuse here. But then again....all of the teachers and dorm staff that I know, are all married !!!!!

So where are all these whackoes ??? All the sexual abusers ????
None here !!!!
But then again....they're married, probably happily, have families of their own.
No problems.

Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, Wom. Sad to say, where there are enough human beings, things can happen.

http://www.clergyabuseaustralia.org/

wombat2u2004

03-30-2010, 08:12 PM

Was that covered under Brit health care rules?:confused::(;)

--------------

And why the break in the "secret double probation" rules?

Hee hee. You should have read what these guys did to themselves :eek::eek:

wombat2u2004

03-30-2010, 08:25 PM

Just because you don't hear about it doesn't mean it doesn't happen, Wom. Sad to say, where there are enough human beings, things can happen.

http://www.clergyabuseaustralia.org/

I agree.
But if for instance, a teacher in my daughters college was found guilty of such behaviour, then that person would be probably locked up and the key thrown away. And I'm sure the college and the staff would not support that individual in any manner.
But if it was a Catholic institution.....they'd remove him from my town and send him to your town.
Isn't the whole point of the matter to be rid of these people out of the community ???

Marigold2

03-30-2010, 09:38 PM

Yes John that is the idea. Lock them up to keep our children safe. The pope should go to prison for his part in this. Wearing a robe and a cross doesn't give you free reign to abuse children. He needs to go to jail.
I agree.
But if for instance, a teacher in my daughters college was found guilty of such behaviour, then that person would be probably locked up and the key thrown away. And I'm sure the college and the staff would not support that individual in any manner.
But if it was a Catholic institution.....they'd remove him from my town and send him to your town.
Isn't the whole point of the matter to be rid of these people out of the community ???

smokey the elder

03-31-2010, 07:02 AM

I don't think a priest who commits ANY crime should be sheltered by the Church. They should be bound to the law(s) of the land.

IMO, raised Protestant, now Pagan, I think this business of celibacy among the clergy of the Catholic Church is inhuman and inhumane. This is not how human beings are built. The survival drives (hunger and sex) are among the strongest in any animal, Homo sapiens sapiens included. Suppress either of these and drastic consequences can result!

wombat2u2004

03-31-2010, 07:09 AM

pomtzu

03-31-2010, 07:18 AM

Bang on old mate....bang on !!!! This is what I have been saying all along.

Ditto!!!!

Cataholic

03-31-2010, 09:20 AM

IMO, raised Protestant, now Pagan, I think this business of celibacy among the clergy of the Catholic Church is inhuman and inhumane. This is not how human beings are built. The survival drives (hunger and sex) are among the strongest in any animal, Homo sapiens sapiens included. Suppress either of these and drastic consequences can result!

If this is so, how come we don't read about this same type of thing about nuns?

Further, while I have no studies to point to, I have read enough articles in the papers/online to realize that all molestation is not done by Catholic priests. Sadly, it is often times a member of one's own extended family.

I just don't buy the 'I am not gettin' any, so I must now go molest a child". It is deviant behavior, not a result of marital deprivation.

Medusa

03-31-2010, 09:29 AM

If this is so, how come we don't read about this same type of thing about nuns?

Further, while I have no studies to point to, I have read enough articles in the papers/online to realize that all molestation is not done by Catholic priests. Sadly, it is often times a member of one's own extended family.

I just don't buy the 'I am not gettin' any, so I must now go molest a child". It is deviant behavior, not a result of marital deprivation.

AMEN and SO MOTE IT BE!

RICHARD

03-31-2010, 12:08 PM

Bang on old mate....bang on !!!! This is what I have been saying all along.

Maybe not 'bang on'?:eek:;)

----------

I had to 'laugh' this morning because one of my favorite programs intergrated a story line with as priest as one of the anatagonists.

He took confession from another character and it was then it hit me.

Confession is one of those kinda rituals that is supposed to absolve the sinner of all sin.

Think of three small closets next to each other, the priest sits in the middle and can open a little window that allows the people in the outside boxes to state their 'transgressions' -I love that word :rolleyes:- get an absolution with a penalty from the priest and every thing is reset.

You have to do one main prayer and a repeat two others for as many times as a the priest sees fit.

LOL, I'd love to see the 'penalty sheet" that he reads from.

After you finish the penalty phase, you can go Frack Off again, the meter is at zero.

---------------

The priest is supposed to rep the BIG GUY and poses as a go-between to insure god hears you....;)

So, with that kind of system in place, what's the big deal?

He goes to another priest, cops to his love of little boys, gets his penalty and goes on his merry way......Not only that, it used to be that the priest was supposedly sworn to secrecy-so if you went to him with a set of sins like cheating on your wife with 14 women-no one would ever find out.

The parents of a molested child would probably go complain to the parish first.

The parish gets the drift, the priest confesses and gets moved away from the crime scene and everything is peachy.

------------

You really cannot blame people who have god on their side.:o:eek:

Catherinedana

03-31-2010, 01:27 PM

If this is so, how come we don't read about this same type of thing about nuns?

I was raised Catholic but now have moved into my own realm of religious freedom as an adult. Fortunately, my mother was not devout and I was not forced to go to a Catholic school. While the nuns have not been accused of sexual abuse, I have heard from many family members and friends who attended Catholic school about the cruelty that they faced in the hands of the nuns. Beatings, pulling of hair, vicious verbal abuse, bestowing a derogatory nickname on a child and having all the others call her by it, tripping students walking up the classroom aisle so that they fall and everyone laughs (I heard this one a few times! Seems to be a nun favorite practical joke.

My cousin, who admittedly was a problem child was beaten every day one week by her nun-teacher. She told her mother, who of course was concerned, so mom went to visit the nun-teacher. Nun told mother that E. was a bit of a character, a bit of a trial, but the class and Nun loved her dearly for who she was. Nun would not have considered laying a hand on her! Needless to say, my cousin got a beating from her dad for lying about the nun. Yikes!!

My ex-husband is from Ireland and he attended school run by the Christian Brothers. The boys were abused so badly with beatings and verbal abuse that many of them find themselves damaged still to this day. Many of my ex's problems with self-esteem and communications issues appear to stem from his days in a "Christian/Catholic" school. He had big ears as a child and he said that one day, he was running in the yard and one of the Brothers picked him up by the ears to yell into his face. Ah, there's christian charity for ya!

I did not want to enter this repartee until I saw the remark about the nuns. I myself was screamed at (I mean S C R E A M E D!!! at) by a nun when I was at catachism getting ready to receive confirmation. I was a very shy child and was devistated to be in this position in front of all the other children (I think I dropped a book on the floor, if I remember correctly). I went home hysterical and told my mother what happened and that I did not want to go back. She said she was fine with that and I have been on a different path since that day.

I'm sure that there are folks who have had positive experiences within the Catholic church. I am not one of them.

RICHARD

03-31-2010, 02:10 PM

I'm sure that there are folks who have had positive experiences within the Catholic church. I am not one of them.

*raises hand*

Sister Mary Torquemada was everywhere.

Priests took your innocence, Nuns took you to the ground.:eek:

Now, I'll say this and only the people who have experienced it will understand that it's not sexist.

There were a few nuns out there that were some screwed up biatches.

----------------

I saw one kid in out class, who had bit my best friend over a dodge ball, get pummeled..

The nun, with her left hand, grabbed the kid by his upper left arm.

She had a wooden pointer in her right hand and proceeded to hit the kid on the back of his thighs/rear with it. As he tried to get away they both spun in a few circles with the nun flailing away the whole time.

It wasn't abuse. It was torture for the kid and the rest of us - She beat the eff out of him in front of the whole classroom.

I remember looking out the window because it was so fricking brutal..

Yeah, he bit someone, but maybe a swat was more in line?:eek:

------------

You know, the best religion may be Scientology after all, those people are to brain dead to start any kind of war.:eek:

http://www.christianbrothersbrandy.com/images/xo.jpg

kokopup

03-31-2010, 02:22 PM

Richard

The priest is supposed to rep the BIG GUY and poses as a go-between to insure god hears you....

So, with that kind of system in place, what's the big deal?

He goes to another priest, cops to his love of little boys, gets his penalty and goes on his merry way......Not only that, it used to be that the priest was supposedly sworn to secrecy-so if you went to him with a set of sins like cheating on your wife with 14 women-no one would ever find out.

The parents of a molested child would probably go complain to the parish first.

The parish gets the drift, the priest confesses and gets moved away from the crime scene and everything is peachy.

You really cannot blame people who have god on their side.

I know this is not the religion thread but the fact that Rome has set the Pope up as Father on earth, and Priest can mediate for you to God goes against all Bible writings.

JOHN 14:6 (in various versions)

King James Bible
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

American King James Version
Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.

American Standard Version
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is reading on the subject of Rome putting itself above GOD

http://www.ianpaisley.org/tiara.asp

------------

RICHARD

03-31-2010, 03:08 PM

[QUOTE=kokopup;2252232]Richard

I know this is not the religion thread but the fact that Rome has set the Pope up as Father on earth, and Priest can mediate for you to God goes against all Bible writings.

[QUOTE]

That is the 'pomposity' of it all.

The Roman Catholic religion has decided that they trump god and the law of the land. It's not the religion, per se. It's the people that run it.

Religion is a good thing.

But, most of the time it has to....

Live on it's own and not worry about the religion next door.
Has to take responsibility for the eff ups that ruin the 'experience'.
And just shut up.

-------------

Getting your ear pulled until it pops something inside your head is not a good
way to learn religion.........been there.......

That said?

I am a believer in corporal punishment.

If you were swatted once and told why? Hey, no problem.

Therein lies the question about how hard and how many.

My parents knew that once was enough and the look of displeasure on THEIR faces was enough of a deterrent to keep us in line.

But, that's another thread.....

Marigold2

03-31-2010, 11:25 PM

I always wondered two things. Why parents allowed nuns to beat their kids. :mad: If a nun beat my kid she would be in the hospital, honest to god she would. That one still confuses me.

Two why nuns were so mean. I think I figured out number two. Sexual frustration. I think the screaming and the hitting and the meaness was their only way of letting go of that sexual build up.

With so many priests being gay, nuns were at a loss. Beating kids with a ruler is kind of Freudian, truly it is.

wombat2u2004

04-01-2010, 03:15 AM

wombat2u2004

04-01-2010, 03:27 AM

My ex-husband is from Ireland and he attended school run by the Christian Brothers. The boys were abused so badly with beatings and verbal abuse that many of them find themselves damaged still to this day. Many of my ex's problems with self-esteem and communications issues appear to stem from his days in a "Christian/Catholic" school.

That is exactly the same story my wife has. Her first husband was Irish with the same upbringing.
He was a real looney toon.....he used to get drunk, sit on her, holding her arms to the floor with his knees, and slap her about the face.
Then I came along....and it was bye bye time for Mr. Potato Head and his screwed up life. :D

Marigold2

04-01-2010, 09:36 AM

My kids went to a Lutheran school for a while till I pulled them out.
Prinicple was having an affair with second grade teacher, very nasty.
There were other reasons as well.
When my daughter was 5 or 6 she was in the after school program as I worked.
The kids brought their lunch. Now Alicia has always been one of those people that eats tiny meals, but lots of them. She is not fat or thin, she is just right, she models and does acting, she does not have a weight hang up.
Anyway here is this poor little kid with her lunch. I always packed 5 things in my kids lunch, a fruit, a snack, sandwich, maybe a salad or soup and a drink. This day she had a soup, sandwich, grapes and cookies plus the drink. She eats some of the soup, some of the sandwich, some grapes and starts eating her cookies. The teacher tells her to finish her soup and sandwich, Alicia tells her she is full. Teacher places hand over her thermos and says "if you are full, no soup, no sandwich, no cookies will go in" my brilllalnt daughter says to her teacher "it's my lunch and I will eat what I want" :D. She had to stand in the corner for three hours.
When I got there and teacher told me what she said I laughted and told her "that is correct, it is her lunch and she can eat the cookies first if she wants and if that is all she wants that is all she needs to eat" . Teacher said "we try and teach our pupils good eating habits". I told her that Alicia could eat what she wanted and from now on maybe I would just pack her cookies, candies and more snacks in her lunch and that she had better NOT be in the corner again for eating her own lunch which I packed.
I was so mad at that teacher. imagine trying to dicate what this poor kid could eat and how much and then putting her in the corner. I put that teacher in her place. Alicia and I still laugh about that.

Cataholic

04-01-2010, 10:19 AM

^^ I cannot tolerate hearing stories like that! It makes me so fearful of J being in school. I am sure I would have done the same thing as you. I have this particular hang-up with kids going to the bathroom. At J's school, they have unlimited access to the bathroom. They take the pass and just leave the room. There is only 1 pass for each gender, so, it is one at a time. But, there isn't any asking permission. I am not sure how it will happen later on in the upper grades, but, I really, really, really hope it is still as easy as it is now. His teacher has told me that she finds it teaches the child about responsibility and sees much less abuse of the process this way. Not total lack of abuse, and she does monitor it, but sometimes, kids 'need' an escape for a few minutes. A lot like adults.

I hear these stories about kids being denied access to the potty and it infuriates me.

caseysmom

04-01-2010, 12:11 PM

wombat2u2004

04-01-2010, 07:38 PM

That happened in first grade for my daughter, my husband had to go to the school with an extra change of clothes. I met with the teacher and we worked it out.

I can remember an incident that happened to me when I was about 8 years old. I was in class and felt really sick. I asked the teacher if I could go outside because I was feeling sick.....she said no....about a minute later I vomited all over the floor. She made me clean it up.

RICHARD

04-01-2010, 08:19 PM

I can remember an incident that happened to me when I was about 8 years old. I was in class and felt really sick. I asked the teacher if I could go outside because I was feeling sick.....she said no....about a minute later I vomited all over the floor. She made me clean it up.

Moderation, mate.;)

You Aussies start young.:D

----------

We used to have phy ed once a week and it consisted of a guy in sweat pants coming out and making everyone line up by classes, 1-8 and do warmups, jumping jacks, push-ups.....

You were not allowed to talk during the class. I was standing in front of two idiots who were talking and the 'coach' looks at me and says, "Go back inside, you were talking...." I told him I didn't say anything and he answered, "NOW YOU ARE..."

I went back to my class and had to take the ruler across the hands for being sent back. Boy, was I ticked.....

Most of the time a swat or two wasn't a huge deal. If you were smart, it made you realize that you could not act/be stupid.

There were a few times that the sentence was far worse than the crime.

Our school had lay teachers and nuns.

Some of the nuns were nothing but bullies, they were mean, nasty, brutal and sadistic. And it was always the older ones that were the biggest AHs.

The 'nun dress code' had just changed and the newer crop didn't have to dress like Sister Bertrille.:eek:;) so they were cool and hip. The older ones were really ticked about that they took it out on the kids.

God, those were the days!:eek:;):)

wombat2u2004

04-01-2010, 08:33 PM

Moderation, mate.;)
You Aussies start young.:D

Errrrrrr....I only had a nip or two with Kathy behind the dunny. :cool:

Marigold2

04-01-2010, 10:39 PM

OMG I would have never lasted Richard. If a nun hit me I would have turned around and smacked her back. B**** slap baby.
I still don't understand why parents allowed their children to be beaten.
I am so confused.
What is this crazy cult like hold they have over people where they can abuse your child and the parent does not do anything?
If someone hit my kids, oh so confused.

wombat2u2004

04-02-2010, 02:41 AM

What is this crazy cult like hold they have over people where they can abuse your child and the parent does not do anything?
It's called "FEAR"

smokey the elder

04-02-2010, 08:21 AM

RICHARD

04-02-2010, 10:27 AM

Along with the instinct stuff (a couple of pages ago) I forgot to put in the whole power-over-others aspect. This is gender-independent and may come out in men as more sexual abuse, and in women as physical abuse. I don't think kids should be coddled in school; they should also not be subjected to such terrible abuses of any type. It's bullying, pure and simple.

You hit on an important distinction!

Not to get too graphic or into detail? I took a sex ed class and during it the subject of rape was discussed. I cannot remember the way it came up, but 'body parts as weapons' was a topic. Women, don't have that option.:eek:

---------------

I don't think parents send their kids to school to be abused or beaten.

But, that being said? I think that many parents do not view their responsibility as parents, seriously. They want to be a kid's friend and have not instilled into their kids that, when they screw up, there is a 'price' to be had.

LOL, Time Outs just leave the kid pi$$ed off he has to sit there and if they are the little -------s they act like?
THey are just seething and planning their next hateful actions. Kinda like a the Kiddie Al Quida Brigade.

A good swat (One, not two, three or pound the crap out of them) is just a reminder that certain behavior is NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Lately, parents do not or cannot apply the appropriate level of consequence to a child who misbehaves.

--------------

Parents have lost that edge.

"I am going to crack you across the arse because you -fill in the blank-
This is your penalty!"

(If your/the parent was righteous? They would toss in the disclaimer, IT HURTS ME TO DO THIS!)

You were dealt with in a controlled manner and that was the end of the trauma. I truly believe that there has to be some kind of 'enlightenment' or consequence for kids.

Remember that speeding/parking ticket you got and how ridiculous you sounded as you cursed the heritage of everyone from the guy that wrote it, to the clerk that will open the envelope with your check inside? You got spanked, you vented, you paid. End of Story.

I had mentioned a gal I knew, whose daughter was a 12 years old and was watching porn, smoking, stole the mom's car, almost torched the apartrment they were living in....

The woman thought that the girl was her friend and refused to put the hammer down.

The funniest part? The teen was a hellion at school -she had begun to fight with the niece of the woman who was on the school board and that moron, because of her office, came to threaten the mom about her child.

LOL, both those little twerps had a free pass because the "adult/parental units" were too effing stupid to teach the kids how to act in school and towards each other.

All that being said? There are thousands of teachers who do their jobs competently and justly.

We only hear about the idiots and abusers.

Occasionally? there is the teacher who tapes a kid's mouth shut and the parent's go ballistic because someone is tired of your evil spawn's running at the mouth and being rude, crude and just plain evil.

Why are you getting upset at this when you put up with the same, may worse, attitude at home?:eek::rolleyes:

You can't handle you brat at home and expect someone to do your job?

Adult, please!

---------------------
Marinate on this one?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp=36146872?

Watch the second clip about the "Nazi" comment made by a parent who's child screwed up.

This AH parent refuses to accept the fact that her kid is a little trouble maker.

Moron.

Medusa

04-02-2010, 02:28 PM

Yes, it isn't just Catholic schools. I and others in my class had the misfortune of having several abusive teachers throughout grade and high school but especially grade (sorry, elementary) school. Remember the Little Rascals and the teacher w/her hair pulled back in a tight bun, black rimmed glasses, long dresses and 'grandma' shoes? I had several teachers like that and just as mean as they were unattractive. They all, w/o exception, hit their students, sometimes on the fanny, sometimes w/a pointer, yardstick or paddle, sometimes on the back of the head w/the hand but most times they'd come up behind us and box our ears. There was also a lot of hair pulling, especially of the girls. As a result, not a few kids wound up w/hearing problems. One teacher loved to hit kids across the knuckles w/a ruler or a deck of cards. Screaming at kids until we were nervous wrecks was nearly a daily occurrence. On top of that, girls had their skirts measured to be sure that they weren't too short, boys always had to have shirts tucked in, no jeans or Tshirts or hair ornaments were allowed. Girls were taught to curtsy, boys to bow and we'd better not forget. We were taught manners, how to dance the waltz and square dance, table manners and all of the old songs that most kids would never recognize today. No point in telling parents; they'd just say 'if you get in trouble in school, you'll be in worse trouble when you get home'. Then when we reached high school, we had to dodge the teachers who were gropers. (Sexy Sam the Science Man comes to mind. God help a girl if she went into the ladies room alone.)

I made up my mind when I had my son that no one was going to mistreat him and get away w/it, not a teacher, not a school mate, not a play mate, nobody. Hurt my kid and you're in deep doo doo. I made mistakes as a parent, to be sure, but it wasn't for lack of trying to do the right thing. If a teacher stepped beyond his/her boundaries and tried to take over my role as parent, s/he regretted it. I didn't tolerate any nonsense from my son and he knew better than to misbehave in school. If he did anyhow and he 'fessed up to it, he apologized to the teacher, accepted reasonable punishment/consequences from the teacher and then I handled it at home but those occasions were rare. Usually it was b/c he couldn't stop talking and fidgeting and so earned the nickname Jitterbug. He's still that way and he's the love of my life.

If kids learn at home what is appropriate and what isn't, if/when they encounter abuse of any kind at school or elsewhere, it'll be much easier for them to go to their parents about it, especially if they know that they're loved, respected and will not be ridiculed, laughed at or dismissed at home.

wombat2u2004

04-02-2010, 04:58 PM

If kids learn at home what is appropriate and what isn't, if/when they encounter abuse of any kind at school or elsewhere, it'll be much easier for them to go to their parents about it, especially if they know that they're loved, respected and will not be ridiculed, laughed at or dismissed at home.

That is very true. ;)

blue

04-03-2010, 12:41 AM

wombat2u2004

04-03-2010, 05:13 AM

chocolatepuppy

04-03-2010, 10:23 AM

30 or 40 year old sexual abuse stories really are only good for one thing arent they? An attack on the Church, and an attack on the Pope. As a badly behaving Catholic for most of my life even I can see these stories for what they are an attack on religion.

Agreed. I'm Catholic and don't agree with all aspects of my religion. (some of you made some good points against the Catholic Church.) I still think the press is having a hey day with the Catholics.

Marigold2

04-03-2010, 02:28 PM

More info is coming out about the Pope being aware of sex abuse against children and sweeping it under the rug. My question to those Catholics is

Why should he not be arrested and charged as anyone else would be and why are the priests not charged with a crime?

That is the question. Can anyone give me an honest answser?

This has nothing to do with the church itself. This has to do with men who sexually abuse children.

Doesn't matter if you are a policemen, firemen, plumber, carpet cleaner, TV repair man, landscaper, dentist, truck driver, business owner, priest or pope.

If you sexually abuse a child you should go to jail for a very long time if not for life.

Warren Jeffs hid behind his religon and he is in jail.

If a dentist abuses a child and he says to the police, " well priets do it and it is sweep under the rug, why can't I do it, I am Catholic as well?"

What would your answer be to this? He is a man, he is Catholic, he abused a child. Nothing else matters, does it?

chocolatepuppy

04-03-2010, 03:32 PM

What would your answer be to this? He is a man, he is Catholic, he abused a child. Nothing else matters, does it?

I think ANYONE who abuses a child, or covers up knowledge of it, should be arrested and charged, no matter WHO they are.

RICHARD

04-03-2010, 06:17 PM

http://www.aolnews.com/crime/article/girl-arrested-for-doodling-on-school-desk-sues-new-york-city/19425428?icid=main|main|dl1|link7|http%3A%2F%2Fwww .aolnews.com%2Fcrime%2Farticle%2Fgirl-arrested-for-doodling-on-school-desk-sues-new-york-city%2F19425428

The school should have beat the kid, the mother and the father.

This is the kind of BS that should never happen-making stupid kids into martyrs.

I would have kicked the crap out of my kid and told the judge to triple the sentence.

Moron.

blue

04-03-2010, 06:42 PM

If child abuse is religion....then yes it is.

If these stories and cases where from the last 15 or 20 years I would say there is something to the anti Catholic hysteria in the news and with the public. But 30 and 40 year old cases and stories, not so much.

This day in age the Church is the most watched organization when it come to pedofilia. Its like the Ausies are the most watched when it comes to the loving of sheep.

blue

04-03-2010, 07:01 PM

More info is coming out about the Pope being aware of sex abuse against children and sweeping it under the rug.

My question to you is...

Where are the links to the info?

Why should he not be arrested and charged as anyone else would be and why are the priests not charged with a crime?

The Pope is not a US citizen, you really think the Vatican Police Department is going to arrest the Pope to be charged?

This has nothing to do with the church itself. This has to do with men who sexually abuse children.

Doesn't matter if you are a policemen, firemen, plumber, carpet cleaner, TV repair man, landscaper, dentist, truck driver, business owner, priest or pope.

Priests and the clergy are far more scrutinized then policemen, firemen, plumber, carpet cleaner, TV repair man, landscaper, dentist, truck driver, business owners, so why is it teachers and not priests are in the news for recent sexual abuse of minors?

If you sexually abuse a child you should go to jail for a very long time if not for life.

If you sexually abuse a child you forfeit your life in my eyes.

Warren Jeffs hid behind his religon and he is in jail.

Where he should be in our society. Im not so understanding.

If a dentist abuses a child and he says to the police, " well priets do it and it is sweep under the rug, why can't I do it, I am Catholic as well?"

What would your answer be to this? He is a man, he is Catholic, he abused a child. Nothing else matters, does it?

If "The Catholic Priests do it why cant I" was a viable defense why are so many teachers and cops going to jail and not priests?

My answer to anybody convicted of abusing a child? Its a ten cent solution.

wombat2u2004

04-03-2010, 09:47 PM

If these stories and cases where from the last 15 or 20 years I would say there is something to the anti Catholic hysteria in the news and with the public.

Anti-Catholic hysteria ????
You're missing the main point here Blu.
ANYONE.....who is guilty of child sexual abuse, or attempting to hide such individuals should be subjected to the full extent of the law. And that goes for the Pope, the clergy, fireman, police....whoever !!!!! Period.
We have laws...and those laws are in place for very good reasons.
Is the Pope above the Common Law ???? He's just a man. Or do you think he is more than a man ???? And why do you think that Papal Law should be different from the law that we the people must be subjected to ???
I don't care a damn if it's the Catholic church or the local pizza shop, if the bosses of those two establishments are guilty of such a crime, then they must face the same laws.
Anti-Catholic hysteria ???? What for ???? Nobody I know fears the Catholic church !!!!

wombat2u2004

04-03-2010, 09:50 PM

This day in age the Church is the most watched organization when it come to pedofilia.

I wonder why ????

wombat2u2004

04-03-2010, 09:54 PM

Its like the Ausies are the most watched when it comes to the loving of sheep.

That's exactly right.
Just like you inbred rednecks who are the butt of our jokes.

blue

04-03-2010, 09:57 PM

Anti-Catholic hysteria ????
You're missing the main point here Blu.
ANYONE.....who is guilty of child sexual abuse, or attempting to hide such individuals should be subjected to the full extent of the law. And that goes for the Pope, the clergy, fireman, police....whoever !!!!! Period.
We have laws...and those laws are in place for very good reasons.
Is the Pope above the Common Law ???? He's just a man. Or do you think he is more than a man ???? And why do you think that Papal Law should be different from the law that we the people must be subjected to ???
I don't care a damn if it's the Catholic church or the local pizza shop, if the bosses of those two establishments are guilty of such a crime, then they must face the same laws.
Anti-Catholic hysteria ???? What for ???? Nobody I know fears the Catholic church !!!!

You seem to have missed my point.

The fast fix for pedofiles is a $0.10 solution, be it the Pope or Obama's Education Czar. Speaking of Obama's Education Czar, we could probably just go Soviet style on the members of NAMBLA.

All of these 30 or 40 year old stories of clergy sexual abuse is all about attacking the Church.

wombat2u2004

04-03-2010, 10:00 PM

All of these 30 or 40 year old stories of clergy sexual abuse is all about attacking the Church.

It's about attacking child abuse.

blue

04-03-2010, 10:00 PM

I wonder why ????

There is a good reason for it given their history. The problem is all of the teachers and other authority figures slipping through the cracks because they are "trusted".

That's exactly right.
Just like you inbred rednecks who are the butt of our jokes.

I may be from Alaska but Im not from a Village. ;)

blue

04-03-2010, 10:04 PM

It's about attacking child abuse.

If that where the case they would be focusing on current abuse cases. SO the Church gets demonized for what happened 30-40 years ago, and NAMBLA and Arne Duncan get passes. Thats just great.

wombat2u2004

04-03-2010, 10:08 PM

There is a good reason for it given their history. The problem is all of the teachers and other authority figures slipping through the cracks because they are "trusted".

Even throughout history, they have never been subjected to the laws of men.
That is the problem.
To be accepted amongst men, they must be held accountable for their crimes as men, and not hold themselves above the laws of men.

wombat2u2004

04-03-2010, 10:10 PM

If that where the case they would be focusing on current abuse cases. SO the Church gets demonized for what happened 30-40 years ago, and NAMBLA and Arne Duncan get passes. Thats just great.

I have no idea who Nambla or Duncan are.
But if they are guilty, then they must be held accountable.

blue

04-03-2010, 10:13 PM

Even throughout history, they have never been subjected to the laws of men.
That is the problem.
To be accepted amongst men, they must be held accountable for their crimes as men, and not hold themselves above the laws of men.

Thats the thing. Over the last 30-40 years they have been held accountable where the laws apply. And NAMBLA and others still get a pass in society, while the Church and religion get demonized.

I have no idea who Nambla or Duncan are.
But if they are guilty, then they must be held accountable.

Oz doesnt have Google (http://www.google.com/)?

kokopup

04-04-2010, 12:25 AM

BLUE
The Church has been using the argument that it was just media hype and that the problem was not real. The recent problem dates back 50 years but the problem with coverup, Homosexuality and the Catholic Church goes back to around the 11th century. This was when the church did away with wifes & mistresses for their priest. This is not a new problem that is being made a media issue. The facts are there if you uses the google you speak of with Wom. Either you are a good Catholic with your head in the sand or you just have your head in the sand. Before you come back with uninformed BS do a little reading on the subject. The history is well documented by many sources.

I am not sure if Arne Duncan is a Supporter of NAMBLA or not but since most of the propaganda comes from the Republican machine with Fox as their outlet, I can't believe anything they say. I think Fox news has about as much credibiility as the Inquirer. There is however nothing political about priest abusing children.

http://www.renegadecatholic.com/vinnie3.pdf

http://www.weirdload.com/ratzi-responsible.pdf

blue

04-04-2010, 12:43 AM

BLUE
The Church has been using the argument that it was just media hype and that the problem was not real. The recent problem dates back 50 years but the problem with coverup, Homosexuality and the Catholic Church goes back to around the 11th century. this was when the church did away with wifes & mistresses for their priest. This is not a new problem that is being made a media issue. The facts are there if you uses the google you speak of with Wom. Either you are a good Catholic with your head in the sand or you just have your head in the sand. Before you come back with uninformed BS do a little reading on the subject. The history is well documented by many sources.

http://www.renegadecatholic.com/vinnie3.pdf

http://www.weirdload.com/ratzi-responsible.pdf

Im not arguing for the Church, the Church has done very abhorrent things in the past. The problem is/was very real. Should we treat ourselves the way the media is trying to treat the Church and judge us by the sins of our fathers? My father was no saint, am I guilty of his sins?

I am a very badly behaving Catholic, as I already stated in this thread.

The history is there, but have you looked at the recent history? The last 20 years, or is your head buried in the sand of the past?

What the Catholics have done to children is dwarfed by how the Muslims have treated their children and women.

wombat2u2004

04-04-2010, 01:31 AM

Im not arguing for the Church, the Church has done very abhorrent things in the past. The problem is/was very real. Should we treat ourselves the way the media is trying to treat the Church and judge us by the sins of our fathers? My father was no saint, am I guilty of his sins?

I am a very badly behaving Catholic, as I already stated in this thread.

The history is there, but have you looked at the recent history? The last 20 years, or is your head buried in the sand of the past?

What the Catholics have done to children is dwarfed by how the Muslims have treated their children and women.

But Blue, we are not blaming you for the sins of the church, or of your father, or of the past. We are blaming the Catholic church system for allowing this sort of behaviour to go on and on and on. And the fact that it keeps going on, is evidenced by the continual relocation of the perpetrators to different countries etc etc. This is the PUNISHMENT that is metted out by the Catholic church to these priests.
Everyone else gets locked up.....priests get sent to a new location....something wrong there, don't you think ????
And as for the Pope....he's been sweeping this stuff under the carpet, it was his job !!!! Don't you think he should be held accountable for that ???

People look up to the church for spiritual guidance. Don't you think they deserve better than to have their children abused sexually ???

Nobody is attacking the Catholic Church.....they are attacking what the Catholic church is doing about a very serious problem...and that is very little.

"What the Catholics have done to children is dwarfed by how the Muslims have treated their children and women"

What has that to do with anything ???? I'm sure the Muslims will look after their own problems, and we will look after ours.

blue

04-04-2010, 01:40 AM

But Blue, we are not blaming you for the sins of the church, or of your father, or of the past. We are blaming the Catholic church system for allowing this sort of behaviour to go on and on and on. And the fact that it keeps going on, is evidenced by the continual relocation of the perpetrators to different countries etc etc. This is the PUNISHMENT that is metted out by the Catholic church to these priests.
Everyone else gets locked up.....priests get sent to a new location....something wrong there, don't you think ????
And as for the Pope....he's been sweeping this stuff under the carpet, it was his job !!!! Don't you think he should be held accountable for that ???

People look up to the church for spiritual guidance. Don't you think they deserve better than to have their children abused sexually ???

Nobody is attacking the Catholic Church.....they are attacking what the Catholic church is doing about a very serious problem...and that is very little.

"What the Catholics have done to children is dwarfed by how the Muslims have treated their children and women"

I can see Im banging my head against a wall here. The Church has made great leaps in the past decades under great scrutiny from the public, some chose to not see the changes. So be it.

What has that to do with anything ???? I'm sure the Muslims will look after their own problems, and we will look after ours.

The Muslims are our brothers and sisters, their problems are ours.

pomtzu

04-04-2010, 08:01 AM

I haven't religiously (no pun intended) been following all the happening in this scandal, but aren't most of these incidents 30 or 40 or 50 years old??? Is there a statute of limitations to prosecute crimes such as this? I may be wrong, but I thought the only crime that doesn't have time limitations for prosecution, was murder. Unfortunately in the end, our own laws may be protecting these scumbags if such time has run out. :mad:

But by bringing all these dirty little secrets out for all to see, hopefully it will put the fear of God (no pun intended again) into more priests, and maybe they just might think twice before they do their dirty deeds again, for fear of getting caught and prosecuted.

wombat2u2004

04-04-2010, 08:21 AM

I can see Im banging my head against a wall here. The Church has made great leaps in the past decades under great scrutiny from the public, some chose to not see the changes. So be it.

If you don't see the corruption that is involved in the Catholic church, then so be it also.

[/QUOTE]The Muslims are our brothers and sisters, their problems are ours.[/QUOTE]
I'm not taking the bait here Blue....if you wish to discuss racial issues, then I will fairly meet you squarly in any forum you wish, except this one.
We are discussing child sexual abuse within the Catholic Church here.

kokopup

04-04-2010, 09:20 AM

Blue, I don't know where you get your facts about how they have cleaned up their act over the last decade. The problem is actually worst now than at any time in history. It has gotten to the point that homosexuality has risen in all parts of the Catholic world that it is finally coming to light world wide. When priest come up with Aids (yes I can show proof ) then the problem is rampant within their ranks. It has been said in this thread that homosexuals prefer adults not children. The facts are pediphilia of boys is a Homosexual act pure and simple.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/priests_with_aids.htm

Miss Z

04-04-2010, 09:36 AM

That's exactly right.
Just like you inbred rednecks who are the butt of our jokes.

Its like the Ausies are the most watched when it comes to the loving of sheep.

Oh dear!

It still astounds me how we have to hate on each other's countries so much on this forum. :confused: :(

Now, before I get back to my afternoon tea and biscuits and croquet... ;)

Blue, I did find myself agreeing with the issue you raised about anti-Catholicism. I was quite surprised, when following this thread, about some of the choice words against them. My country has quite a history of falling out with Catholics ;), but I've yet to experience the same level of venom I've sensed here with the religious folk I know personally.

I think there is corruption in most religious sects, and as usual they ruin it for all the decent people.

It is fair to say, though, that everyone in this thread is agreed that these priests cannot, and should not be able to, hide behind the shroud of their faith and should be tried and punished as anyone else would. That is the real cause for outcry in this issue, not the Catholic way of living.

I think I may have posted a thread about it a long while ago; there was a vicar in my area who was convicted for downloading indecent images of kids. I don't know why I didn't think of it before. I don't remember exactly what type of Church he belonged to, but it was certainly not a Catholic one.

Back to the marriage issue - he had it all. Wife, kids, nice house, lots of friends. One day, his son discovers the images. Frustrated, or just wrongly wired in the head?

These people turn up in all walks of life, just when it occurs in a religious group, where we expect everyone to be perfect, it feels all the more damning.

This thread should not be used as a chance for a pop at the Catholics.

Marigold2

04-04-2010, 11:45 AM

Wom, you words are so eloquently put and so spot on. I could not agree with you more.

A few things I would like to add. It should not matter if these crimes were commited last week or in the last 30 years, children suffered, lives were runined. Their suffering was not less 30 years ago, in fact it was probably greater since people did not speak up as much as they do today. These people Blue are still in great, great pain.

If one judges a persons behavior by past actions then one must take into account tha fact that if it was sweep under the rug and they were not punished in the past, the behavior has continued and perhaps become more brazen.

I have nothing against the church. My nephew Michael is considering priesthood. However I fear for him. Will he be abused by those higher up as has been mentioned on this thread?

LONDON – Protests are growing against Pope Benedict XVI's planned trip to Britain, where some lawyers question whether the Vatican's implicit statehood status should shield the pope from prosecution over sex crimes by pedophile priests.
More than 10,000 people have signed a petition on Downing Street's web site against the pope's 4-day visit to England and Scotland in September, which will cost U.K. taxpayers an estimated 15 million pounds ($22.5 million). The campaign has gained momentum as more Catholic sex abuse scandals have swept across Europe.
Although Benedict has not been accused of any crime, senior British lawyers are now examining whether the pope should have immunity as a head of state and whether he could be prosecuted under the principle of universal jurisdiction for an alleged systematic cover-up of sexual abuses by priests.
Universal jurisdiction — a concept in international law — allows judges to issue warrants for nearly any visitor accused of grievous crimes, no matter where they live. British judges have been more open to the concept than those in other countries.
Lawyers are divided over the immunity issue. Some argue that the Vatican isn't a true state, while others note the Vatican has national relations with about 170 countries, including Britain. The Vatican is also the only non-member to have permanent observer status at the U.N.
Then again, no other top religious leaders enjoy the same U.N. privileges or immunity, so why should the pope?
David Crane, former chief prosecutor at the Sierra Leone war crimes tribunal, said it would be difficult to implicate the pope in anything criminal.
"It's a fascinating kind of academic, theoretical discussion," said Crane, who prosecuted Sierra Leone's Charles Taylor when he was still a sitting head of state. "At this point, there's no liability at all."

This article continues, it's under Yahoo's home page.
So you see others too question weather the pope should be in jail.

If one commits a crime it cannot matter who one is.
The law applies to all weather you are a Catholic, a Buddist or a Lutheran. Wrong is wrong.

As a Catholic Blue I wonder why you would not want to take an active part in cleaning this mess up as much as one can and helping rid the church of sex abuse. Don't you want to make the Catholic church better?

wombat2u2004

04-04-2010, 05:25 PM

As a Catholic Blue I wonder why you would not want to take an active part in cleaning this mess up as much as one can and helping rid the church of sex abuse. Don't you want to make the Catholic church better?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

Hmmmm....maybe from a Catholics point of view, it's acceptable behaviour.

kokopup

04-04-2010, 11:53 PM

wombat2u2004

04-05-2010, 02:07 AM

I guess we need to restate the point of the thread. We all acknowledge that Pedophilia/homosexuality/illicit heterosexual behavior exist in all segments of the world, even all religions. The problem at least from a Pedophilia and homosexuality standpoint is when a crime is committed against children and the guilty goes unpunished. If a Baptist Paster committed an offense against a child, not only would he/she lose their church but they would go to jail. In addition once he/she was released from jail they would have to register as a sex offender. There is no one in our church hierarchy that would sweep it under the rug. I personally have not heard of a minister having relations with a child but I have seen several caught having affairs with either coworkers or members of the church. The one case I can speak first hand about , the minister had heterosexual relations with a coworker, and he was forced to retire. The church I went to had a church worker found accessing gay porn on his computer and he was immediately dismissed. Since neither of these cases were committed against a child there were no civil laws violated. In both cases though there were consequences for their actions.

Agreed Bill.
Who in their right mind would want a child molester to go unpunished ???
Someone who believes it's not a crime on one hand, but on the other represents the Kingdom of Heaven ????
Sounds like a bit of a contradiction to me.
Is not the person who hides the criminal as guilty as the criminal ????
Let's forget about power and position, and make these people be subjected to the laws of the land.
After all.....wasn't Nixon and Clinton held accountable for their crimes ???
(And their crimes were miniscule compared to child sexual abuse).

Alysser

04-05-2010, 08:49 AM

Oh dear!

It still astounds me how we have to hate on each other's countries so much on this forum. :confused: :(

Now, before I get back to my afternoon tea and biscuits and croquet... ;)

Blue, I did find myself agreeing with the issue you raised about anti-Catholicism. I was quite surprised, when following this thread, about some of the choice words against them. My country has quite a history of falling out with Catholics ;), but I've yet to experience the same level of venom I've sensed here with the religious folk I know personally.

I think there is corruption in most religious sects, and as usual they ruin it for all the decent people.

It is fair to say, though, that everyone in this thread is agreed that these priests cannot, and should not be able to, hide behind the shroud of their faith and should be tried and punished as anyone else would. That is the real cause for outcry in this issue, not the Catholic way of living.

I think I may have posted a thread about it a long while ago; there was a vicar in my area who was convicted for downloading indecent images of kids. I don't know why I didn't think of it before. I don't remember exactly what type of Church he belonged to, but it was certainly not a Catholic one.

Back to the marriage issue - he had it all. Wife, kids, nice house, lots of friends. One day, his son discovers the images. Frustrated, or just wrongly wired in the head?

These people turn up in all walks of life, just when it occurs in a religious group, where we expect everyone to be perfect, it feels all the more damning.

This thread should not be used as a chance for a pop at the Catholics.

Great choice of words, Zara. I agree with you completely.

wombat2u2004

04-05-2010, 07:11 PM

Well golly gee !!!!
We are accused of taking a pop at the church ???
Now I've REALLY got my dander up !!!! :p

Bill and Blue....we should discuss this over tea and cucumber sandwiches.

Marigold2

04-06-2010, 08:53 AM

Would be interesting to hear from some who have been abused. What punishment would they dole out and what would they suggest to keep futher gernerations safe from this abuse?

wombat2u2004

04-06-2010, 10:11 AM

Would be interesting to hear from some who have been abused. What punishment would they dole out and what would they suggest to keep futher gernerations safe from this abuse?

Nawwwww....we can't do that.
We might be accused of attacking the church. :p

Catty1

04-06-2010, 11:05 AM

Miss Z

04-06-2010, 12:29 PM

Well golly gee !!!!
We are accused of taking a pop at the church ???
Now I've REALLY got my dander up !!!! :p

Bill and Blue....we should discuss this over tea and cucumber sandwiches.

Heh, well it really is all about you, isn’t it, John?

Marigold, apologies. I'm not being a particularly good friend here! Promise I’ll smirk to myself only at the beastie after this post.

Haha, you have a go at the Catholic Church all you want, my friend, for you see it singles you out for the person you are - racist, homophobic, a little sexist, and when it comes down to the boil, against anything or anyone who might call you on something.

You made a habit of picking on a young girl the first time around you were here.

You were nasty for the mere reason that she disagreed with you a few times.

You are unlike any others on the forum here, who at least have the decency to drop or at least quieten their discrepancies with each other over time. Well, try it on with me all you like, matie, I frankly do not give a toss.

I had the mis/fortune of stumbling across a few Youtube comments you made some time after your PT departure, and evidently you can’t contain your exuberance to irk people there either. Tsk tsk, you should choose a less unique username, says I.

And I have no doubt that I will be flamed for this, or that this post will be deleted, and that few will choose to publicly back me. I’ll take a defeat, or a slap, should it come, so long as others know I‘m prepared to stand in the firing line. At least I don’t depend on the ignore button to shut out the words I don’t want to hear.

And, silly man, were you not so self-righteous in that respect, you would have seen me agreeing with you in some threads, against people whom I sure as hell prefer and respect over you. I’m able to move on. Ask Blue, the pair of us have had quite the gripes! Can’t say I blame him if he’s not all that fond of me. But in this thread, he’s right, IMO, and I support his words. It’s called being respectful.

The comment I made was not particularly about your posts, since if they seem to contain too many consecutive exclamation marks and other various punctuation symbols, I don’t often read them. It was directed at the people I know can ‘hear’ me in this thread, why on earth should I address it to you?

You and I - chalk and cheese. You say I’m evil and angry, I say you’re pathetic and laughable. We ain’t never gonna be happy until one of us has gone. And I hold out that, if it’s not me that this time sends you storming off, it’ll be someone else. And if I have to be got shut of before that happens, well, that’ll be a shame for me, since I care a lot about many people here. I’ll only have my snappiness and sense of justice to blame for that, but my gawd do I hold it dear. I won’t be changing that anytime soon.

I would be grateful if someone not on the naughty list could quote me so that I can correspond with this gentleman. It is all I wish to say to him.

I’ll expect the arrival of the cavalry, that’s cool. My gripes are not with you. :)

Miss Z

04-06-2010, 12:31 PM

Would be interesting to hear from some who have been abused. What punishment would they dole out and what would they suggest to keep futher gernerations safe from this abuse?

This would indeed be an interesting perspective. From news reports, the parents of the abused Irish children certainly have a thing or two in mind. I reckon, however, that it couldn’t be coaxed from the mouths of the victims on moral grounds by police, or media, or whoever else wants to know. Too much dredging up of awful memories. I can’t fathom what that would be like.

pomtzu

04-06-2010, 02:05 PM

Lady's Human

04-06-2010, 02:32 PM

If the topic can't be discussed without personal comments, then perhaps it shouldn't be discussed here. Personal disputes have no place here, Dog House or otherwise.

The Catholic Church in the US has lost much of its legal shield, perhaps it is time for other countries to follow suit. John J. Geoghan certainly destroyed any shred of secrecy for the Boston archdiocese.

Cataholic

04-06-2010, 03:07 PM

Heh, well it really is all about you, isn’t it, John?

Marigold, apologies. I'm not being a particularly good friend here! Promise I’ll smirk to myself only at the beastie after this post.

Haha, you have a go at the Catholic Church all you want, my friend, for you see it singles you out for the person you are - racist, homophobic, a little sexist, and when it comes down to the boil, against anything or anyone who might call you on something.

You made a habit of picking on a young girl the first time around you were here.

You were nasty for the mere reason that she disagreed with you a few times.

You are unlike any others on the forum here, who at least have the decency to drop or at least quieten their discrepancies with each other over time. Well, try it on with me all you like, matie, I frankly do not give a toss.

I had the mis/fortune of stumbling across a few Youtube comments you made some time after your PT departure, and evidently you can’t contain your exuberance to irk people there either. Tsk tsk, you should choose a less unique username, says I.

And I have no doubt that I will be flamed for this, or that this post will be deleted, and that few will choose to publicly back me. I’ll take a defeat, or a slap, should it come, so long as others know I‘m prepared to stand in the firing line. At least I don’t depend on the ignore button to shut out the words I don’t want to hear.

And, silly man, were you not so self-righteous in that respect, you would have seen me agreeing with you in some threads, against people whom I sure as hell prefer and respect over you. I’m able to move on. Ask Blue, the pair of us have had quite the gripes! Can’t say I blame him if he’s not all that fond of me. But in this thread, he’s right, IMO, and I support his words. It’s called being respectful.

The comment I made was not particularly about your posts, since if they seem to contain too many consecutive exclamation marks and other various punctuation symbols, I don’t often read them. It was directed at the people I know can ‘hear’ me in this thread, why on earth should I address it to you?

You and I - chalk and cheese. You say I’m evil and angry, I say you’re pathetic and laughable. We ain’t never gonna be happy until one of us has gone. And I hold out that, if it’s not me that this time sends you storming off, it’ll be someone else. And if I have to be got shut of before that happens, well, that’ll be a shame for me, since I care a lot about many people here. I’ll only have my snappiness and sense of justice to blame for that, but my gawd do I hold it dear. I won’t be changing that anytime soon.

I would be grateful if someone not on the naughty list could quote me so that I can correspond with this gentleman. It is all I wish to say to him.

I’ll expect the arrival of the cavalry, that’s cool. My gripes are not with you. :)

While I would never say from the mouth of babes...there sure is something here! You go, girl!

Karen

04-06-2010, 03:20 PM

Let's keep it civil, this is still Pet Talk.

From the formerly abused children I have known all many want is it to never happen to another child again, and for the crime to be treated as a crime.

Alysser

04-06-2010, 05:29 PM

While I would never say from the mouth of babes...there sure is something here! You go, girl!

I love this post Zara, beautiful! :D

Lady's Human

04-06-2010, 05:44 PM

As posted by the mayor, keep it civil, and there is absolutely no need for anyone to egg this mess on from the sidelines.

Some people on here don't like each other.

We get it.

Take it to PM's and figure out how to co-exist without the personal BS in the forums.

RICHARD

04-06-2010, 05:50 PM

Some people on here don't like each other.

We get it.

Lately? There's been someone that shows up who I CANNOT STAND.

I have to get a screwdriver, if I break the mirror, it's seven years bad luck.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_eyes.gif

Lady's Human

04-06-2010, 06:13 PM

I thought you were referring to me for that tat pic. :eek:

RICHARD

04-06-2010, 06:36 PM

What I want to know is why people who kept theirs mouths shut about the abuse that happened AT THAT TIME were able to cash in on THEIR inability to say anything about the abuses.

Again, no one deserves abusive treatment at the hands of others, but, I just find the people who suddenly recover repressed memories when a Class Action Law Suit happens to catch their eye.

Even worse?

The ambulance chasers/advocates who promoted that kind of BS just to pad their pockets.

------------------

Here in El Lay there was a child care center run by the McMartin family.

The were accused of sex abuse, animal sacrifice and all kinds of other scummy kiddie abuse. The kids testified that there was an underground toture
chamber under the school grounds and there was ritual animal slaughter going on.

Turns out that the kids were lying and telling stories to the psychologist, cops and the prosecutors just to get them off of their backs.

The defendants lost the school, their investment and lively hood over some accusations that started on of the most expensive and lengthy court cases in El Lay history.

Not to say that things didn't happed to the kids in Cat School-but I can barely remember stuff that happened a few weeks ago, let alone 10-30 years plus.

The way the RCC handed out the money in the settlements was kinda funny too. The people just had to file a complaint, talk to a few people and the check was in the mail.

I remember one slob that, when the settlement for the abused was handed out here in Lost ANGELES was in tears over getting a ton of money.

He was blubbering about being able too go on with his life now that the case was over.

I would have taken the money, rubbed it over my violated parts and burned it.

This is not to say that the abuse didn't happen, but how many of the victims would have changed a monetary settlement for some priests doing a little time in the pokey?

It all stinks to high heaven, the abusers who were shuffled around like U-Haul trailer, the people who spent life with that lump stuck in their chests and the Law, lawmakers and hot shot legal reps that made tons of money on other people's suffering.

God bless them all!

Do some penance and all is forgiven.

That said?

I view the whole escapade like I viewed my job.

"I like my work, it's the people in the office I hate."

I don't mind the religion, it's the people that make it look bad that I depise?:confused::eek:

Cataholic

04-06-2010, 06:38 PM

Lately? There's been someone that shows up who I CANNOT STAND.

I have to get a screwdriver, if I break the mirror, it's seven years bad luck.

http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_eyes.gif

I am SO in ageement with you! This "member" is so distasteful to many of us!! If only we ran the board.

RICHARD

04-06-2010, 06:38 PM

I thought you were referring to me for that tat pic. :eek:

No, no, no.......It's the scary sucker lurking in my b-room mirror in the morning.

But, Now that you mention it?

42# nodroG ffeJ

RICHARD

04-06-2010, 06:40 PM

I am SO in ageement with you! This "member" is so distasteful to many of us!! If only we ran the board.

So, you find me distasteful?

I would put myself near anyone's lips.

Marigold2

04-06-2010, 08:29 PM

Richard if I may. Your question on why children who are abused do not speak up at the time. I can answer that easily. Fear, shame, gulit.
My cousins were sexually abused by their father. Since my one cousin is two months my senior her and I were very very close. I knew all about the abuse. We were between 12 and 14 when this was going on.
I wanted her to tell, she was terrified. My dad was a cop at the time. I never said a word. She knew my aunt her mother would not believe her and still worst she was afraid her mother would do nothing to stop it for fear of losing her home. I tried for years to have her tell, she told me over and over again if I did tell she would kill herself. That is a heavy burden and I could not risk that. So at 13 I did nothing.
The truth finally came out when her father was chasing her through the house and she climbed on the roof to get away from him and my younger aunt showed up and said "what the hell are you doing on the roof".
He was brought to court but my cousins were too terrified and ashamed to testify. Their lives were ruined be this.
Children are threathened by molesters to keep quite. Some promise to murder their parents if they tell or their younger brothers and sisters. They are told so many lies and the shame is so great. They truly have no where to turn often.
As for the priets I don't know what they would say to a child, perhaps they pick on the weak child, the one who has a disfunctional family life, perhaps one who doesn't get any love or attention at home.
I do know that many people hide what happens into adult hood because it is just to painful. We hear many come forward once they find the strength to voice their pain, Marie Osmond being one.
Rape victims do the same thing. So many are not reported. This is rape but of a child. Grown women are afraid to come forward, these poor children. My heart truly cries for them. I have seen the long term effect of abuse and it is a death of the soul.

Marigold2

04-06-2010, 08:34 PM

As for the church, the church is made up of people who come together to pray, to learn and to grow and do good deeds.
The people are the church. Any bad apple needs to be weeded out for it hurts the good people of a clean heart and mind.
It can only do the church good to rid itself of this slime. No bad will come from doing the right thing. People are upset because the wrong thing was done over and over and the good people have lost trust.
The good people now need to speak up and say ENOUGH.

wombat2u2004

04-06-2010, 08:52 PM

The people who were abused as children might very well want to attack the church. Pedophiles in the church should not be immune to prosecution, as seems to have been the case - they are too well covered up.

That's the real point here isn't it ??? It's not about attacking anyones church.
It's about bringing to justice those who are free to commit the same crimes again and again against our children.
We can discuss this further in the "Tea and Cookies on top of the Pennines" forum on Facebook if you wish (a children free forum).:p

wombat2u2004

04-06-2010, 09:01 PM

I was really rather enjoying PT these past few months, without all the accusations, name calling, insults, and other generally rude behavior that goes along as part of the package. I knew it was too good to last!!!

If the shoe fits...........

And indeed the shoe DOES fit.
Do what I do mate, shove em on ignore, and then you don't have to read the junk mail. ;)

RICHARD

04-06-2010, 09:01 PM

Richard if I may. Your question on why children who are abused do not speak up at the time. I can answer that easily. Fear, shame, gulit.
My cousins were sexually abused by their father. Since my one cousin is two months my senior her and I were very very close. I knew all about the abuse. We were between 12 and 14 when this was going on.
I wanted her to tell, she was terrified. My dad was a cop at the time. I never said a word. She knew my aunt her mother would not believe her and still worst she was afraid her mother would do nothing to stop it for fear of losing her home. I tried for years to have her tell, she told me over and over again if I did tell she would kill herself. That is a heavy burden and I could not risk that. So at 13 I did nothing.
The truth finally came out when her father was chasing her through the house and she climbed on the roof to get away from him and my younger aunt showed up and said "what the hell are you doing on the roof".
He was brought to court but my cousins were too terrified and ashamed to testify. Their lives were ruined be this.

The priests have 'god' on their sides.

I took a sex ed class and we touched on kid abuse. I have no children, but I dated a gal who was molested as a child and saw the "death" of parts of her soul.

People who abuse kids need to be exposed as soon as possible-but there are times that the system can work against the innocent.

One thing that is very sketchy about reinforcing the "If someone bad touches you in your special place" mantra is that we empower kids with the idea that they have a voice should they be abused, but, it can also be used as a 'weapon' against any adult they may have a difference with.

-------------

My sis hit my niece in the arse with a shoe. Because my niece had never pushed my sis to the point of corporal punishment? My niece was devastated, confided with a friend that "MOM beat me with a shoe" and the school, cops and social services had to be called in to make sure that no kid was hurt in the writing of this post!!!

Embarrassing? Yeah, but at the cost of keeping a child safe? I have to say that erring on the side of caution is good, but, we have to take time to really look at what may have transpired in each case.

I know that the topic was the church and child abuse and apologize for taking it out-of-bounds. C.A. is a real problem and not JUST a church problem. It's a problem that need to be exposed for what it is, A crime against children.

But, we also have to empower-I really hate that term-our children to use that knowledge with common sense.

Marigold2

04-06-2010, 09:07 PM

wombat2u2004

04-06-2010, 09:15 PM

So, you find me distasteful?

I would put myself near anyone's lips.

Careful mate. There's a member or two here that may well view it as child abuse if you get too close to their lips. :p:p

wombat2u2004

04-06-2010, 09:20 PM

The priets have god on their side? What god allows sex abuse of a child to continue, be hidden and not stopped?

God on their side ???? Surely God would not condone such crimes against children.
I think it would be more like....the church and the pope is on their side. ;)

RICHARD

04-06-2010, 09:24 PM

The priets have god on their side? What god allows sex abuse of a child to continue, be hidden and not stopped?
Bit confused here. Hard to tell if you are joking or not.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt because it is hard to tell when one is writing words. I cannot see you smile, frown, laugh or raise your eyebrows. And luckly you can't see me sitting here in my PJ's. LOL

My comment was meant to be sarcastic.:eek:

Remember that the RCC goes by the 'confess and your sins will be absolved'.

So, how many times would priests play life like a video game? Just hit the RESET button and carry on?

NO god would allow a child to be hurt that way.

None that I know of.

---------

WOM,

My cut-off is 30 years old.:) I can't even look at the Playboy centerfolds w/o feeling dirty.:eek:

wombat2u2004

04-06-2010, 09:32 PM

WOM,
My cut-off is 30 years old.:) I can't even look at the Playboy centerfolds w/o feeling dirty.:eek:

Me to ;) Maturity has a way of speaking for itself....eh ??? :p

pomtzu

04-07-2010, 07:35 AM

Do what I do mate, shove em on ignore, and then you don't have to read the junk mail. ;)

LOL
Maybe I'll do that - right after I sweep up some crumbs. :p

lizbud

04-07-2010, 09:26 AM

Heh, well it really is all about you, isn’t it, John?

Marigold, apologies. I'm not being a particularly good friend here! Promise I’ll smirk to myself only at the beastie after this post.

Haha, you have a go at the Catholic Church all you want, my friend, for you see it singles you out for the person you are - racist, homophobic, a little sexist, and when it comes down to the boil, against anything or anyone who might call you on something.

You made a habit of picking on a young girl the first time around you were here.

You were nasty for the mere reason that she disagreed with you a few times.

You are unlike any others on the forum here, who at least have the decency to drop or at least quieten their discrepancies with each other over time. Well, try it on with me all you like, matie, I frankly do not give a toss.

I had the mis/fortune of stumbling across a few Youtube comments you made some time after your PT departure, and evidently you can’t contain your exuberance to irk people there either. Tsk tsk, you should choose a less unique username, says I.

And I have no doubt that I will be flamed for this, or that this post will be deleted, and that few will choose to publicly back me. I’ll take a defeat, or a slap, should it come, so long as others know I‘m prepared to stand in the firing line. At least I don’t depend on the ignore button to shut out the words I don’t want to hear.

And, silly man, were you not so self-righteous in that respect, you would have seen me agreeing with you in some threads, against people whom I sure as hell prefer and respect over you. I’m able to move on. Ask Blue, the pair of us have had quite the gripes! Can’t say I blame him if he’s not all that fond of me. But in this thread, he’s right, IMO, and I support his words. It’s called being respectful.

The comment I made was not particularly about your posts, since if they seem to contain too many consecutive exclamation marks and other various punctuation symbols, I don’t often read them. It was directed at the people I know can ‘hear’ me in this thread, why on earth should I address it to you?

You and I - chalk and cheese. You say I’m evil and angry, I say you’re pathetic and laughable. We ain’t never gonna be happy until one of us has gone. And I hold out that, if it’s not me that this time sends you storming off, it’ll be someone else. And if I have to be got shut of before that happens, well, that’ll be a shame for me, since I care a lot about many people here. I’ll only have my snappiness and sense of justice to blame for that, but my gawd do I hold it dear. I won’t be changing that anytime soon.

I would be grateful if someone not on the naughty list could quote me so that I can correspond with this gentleman. It is all I wish to say to him.

I’ll expect the arrival of the cavalry, that’s cool. My gripes are not with you. :)

Hi Zara,:)

I love the way the English put things.:) "Chalk & Cheese" :D LOL

Lady's Human

04-07-2010, 09:29 AM

Maybe its time to lock this.

The cheerleading squad is back.

wombat2u2004

04-07-2010, 10:20 AM

Cheese" :D LOL

Cheese ??? Did you mention cheese ???
I'll have some of that with my water crackers and gin :p

Grace

04-07-2010, 04:33 PM

From the NY Times - I don't always read Maureen Dowd, but this one caught my eye. She is saying much the same as the leader of my Bible Study group - who was once a nun.

April 7, 2010
Op-Ed Columnist
The Church’s Judas Moment
By MAUREEN DOWD

WASHINGTON

I’m a Catholic woman who makes a living being adversarial. We have a pope who has instructed Catholic women not to be adversarial.

It’s a conundrum.

I’ve been wondering, given the vitriolic reaction of the New York archbishop to my column defending nuns and the dismissive reaction of the Vatican to my column denouncing the church’s response to the pedophilia scandal, if they are able to take a woman’s voice seriously. Some, like Bill Donohue of the Catholic League, seem to think women are trying to undermine the church because of abortion and women’s ordination.

I thought they might respond better to a male Dowd.

My brother Kevin is conservative and devout — his hobby is collecting crèches — and has raised three good Catholic sons. When I asked him to share his thoughts on the scandal, I learned, shockingly, that we agreed on some things. He wrote the following:

“In pedophilia, the church has unleashed upon itself a plague that threatens its very future, and yet it remains in a curious state of denial. The church I grew up in was black and white, no grays. That’s why my father, an Irish immigrant, liked it so much. The chaplain of the Police and Fire departments told me once ‘Your father was a fierce Catholic, very fierce.’

My brothers and I were sleepily at his side for the monthly 8 a.m. Holy Name Mass and the guarding of the Eucharist in the middle of the night during the 40-hour ritual at Easter. Once during a record snowstorm in 1958, we were marched single-file to church for Mass only to find out the priests next door couldn’t get out of the rectory.

The priest was always a revered figure, the embodiment of Christ changing water into wine. (Older parishioners took it literally.) The altar boys would drink the dregs.

When I was in the 7th grade, one of the new priests took four of us to the drive-in restaurant and suggested a game of ‘pink belly’ on the way back; we pulled up a boy’s shirt and slapped his belly until it was pink. When the new priest joined in, it seemed like more groping than slapping. But we thought it was inadvertent. And my parents never would have believed a priest did anything inappropriate anyway. A boy in my class told me much later that the same priest climbed into bed with him in 1958 at a rectory sleepover, but my friend threw him to the floor. The priest protested he was sleepwalking. Three days later, the archbishop sent the priest to a rehab place in New Mexico; he ended up as a Notre Dame professor.

Vatican II made me wince. The church declared casual Friday. All the once-rigid rules left to the whim of the flock. The Mass was said in English (rendering useless my carefully learned Latin prayers). Holy days of obligation were optional. There were laypeople on the heretofore sacred ground of the altar — performing the sacraments and worse, handling the Host. The powerful symbolism of the priest turning the Host into the body of Christ cracked like an egg.

In his book, ‘Goodbye! Good Men,’ author Michael Rose writes that the liberalized rules set up a takeover of seminaries by homosexuals.

Vatican II liberalized rules but left the most outdated one: celibacy. That vow was put in place originally because the church did not want heirs making claims on money and land. But it ended up shrinking the priest pool and producing the wrong kind of candidates — drawing men confused about their sexuality who put our children in harm’s way.

The church is dying from a thousand cuts. Its cover-up has cost a fortune and been a betrayal worthy of Judas. The money spent came from social programs, Catholic schools and the poor. This should be a sin that cries to heaven for vengeance. I asked a friend of mine recently what he would do if his child was molested after the church knew. ‘I would probably kill someone,’ he replied.

We must reassess. Married priests and laypeople giving the sacraments are not going to destroy the church. Based on what we have seen the last 10 years, they would be a bargain. It is time to go back to the disciplines that the church was founded on and remind our seminaries and universities what they are. (Georgetown University agreeing to cover religious symbols on stage to get President Obama to speak was not exactly fierce.)

The storm within the church strikes at what every Catholic fears most. We take our religion on faith. How can we maintain that faith when our leaders are unworthy of it?”

source (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/opinion/07dowd.html?hp)

pomtzu

04-07-2010, 04:57 PM

From the NY Times - I don't always read Maureen Dowd, but this one caught my eye. She is saying much the same as the leader of my Bible Study group - who was once a nun.

source (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/opinion/07dowd.html?hp)

Thanks for this post, Gretchen. I found it interesting and enlightening - especially since your bible study leader is much in agreement with what was written.

wombat2u2004

04-07-2010, 05:00 PM

From the NY Times - I don't always read Maureen Dowd, but this one caught my eye. She is saying much the same as the leader of my Bible Study group - who was once a nun.

source (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/opinion/07dowd.html?hp)

An excellent read Gretchen.
Thankyou for posting that.

lizbud

04-07-2010, 05:05 PM

From the NY Times - I don't always read Maureen Dowd, but this one caught my eye. She is saying much the same as the leader of my Bible Study group - who was once a nun.

source (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/07/opinion/07dowd.html?hp)

She had a excellent article on the church & this whole mess, in Easter
Sunday's paper. Might like that one as well.:)

Grace

04-07-2010, 05:27 PM

She had a excellent article on the church & this whole mess, in Easter
Sunday's paper. Might like that one as well.:)

I did read that one. Another good opinion writer is James Carroll for the Boston Globe. He was once a priest, and writes about many subjects, including this current mess within the Church. His latest is here. (http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/04/05/rescue_catholicism_from_vatican/)

wombat2u2004

04-07-2010, 05:41 PM

An interesting clause...........
"Across three decades, Ratzinger was key to the appointment of bishops whose overriding commitment was the protection of pope-centered clerical authority. Terrified of acting on their own, they had one eye eternally on Rome. “Scandal’’ was their nightmare. Between an abused child and a predator priest, their choice was always simple: protecting the power structure meant protecting the priest."

kokopup

04-07-2010, 06:30 PM

"Across three decades, Ratzinger was key to the appointment of bishops whose overriding commitment was the protection of pope-centered clerical authority. Terrified of acting on their own, they had one eye eternally on Rome. “Scandal’’ was their nightmare. Between an abused child and a predator priest, their choice was always simple: protecting the power structure meant protecting the priest.

If you read the link that I put in Post 101 it details how Ratzinger used "Vatican 2" to create the culture of secrecy that has spawned the churches present problems. While his intention may have been good the end results have turned into a disaster that even he, based on his recent declarations, must realize was a mistake. It is time for Vatican 3 to undo the Problems created by the Vatican 2 fundamentalist. The man now going by "Pope Benedict the 16th" was the leader of that group. He just about has to step aside for the present problems to be resolved.

http://www.weirdload.com/ratzi-responsible.pdf

lizbud

04-07-2010, 06:52 PM

I did read that one. Another good opinion writer is James Carroll for the Boston Globe. He was once a priest, and writes about many subjects, including this current mess within the Church. His latest is here. (http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2010/04/05/rescue_catholicism_from_vatican/)

I wondered what happened to the great changes that Vatican II was
supposed to bring. I enjoyed Carroll's article. I don't know enough about
the "politics" of the church in Rome. Thanks for the link which I shall share.:)

RICHARD

04-07-2010, 08:15 PM

LOLOLOLOL,

I refuse to read PDF documents with little numbers at the end of sentences.

Loved the Monty Python reference, but got lost when he started to 'pontificate' on all the stuff we already know, suspect and will never find out about the church.

Let's talk Baltimore Catechism instead?

---------

I still think Maureen Dowd needs to change the daguerreotype she uses in the headers of her columns, She hasn't aged well. She can still photoshop anything new she decides to go with.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL,

Casual Friday was the cause for child abuse in the church. They were hoping to burn out the Catholic School Girl fantasies that most of us guys that went to private school still have.

I remember looking up a plaid skirt or two wondering why the nuns were measuring the difference between the hem and top of the knee....:rolleyes::confused::o

wombat2u2004

04-08-2010, 06:13 AM

The man now going by "Pope Benedict the 16th" was the leader of that group. He just about has to step aside for the present problems to be resolved.

Good. The guilty and their protectors must be punished by law. (And I don't mean Canon Law)

RICHARD

04-08-2010, 06:29 AM

Good. The guilty and their protectors must be punished by law. (And I don't mean Canon Law)

Hows about CANNON law, You know, like the guy at the circus, with out the net?:confused::eek:;)

wombat2u2004

04-08-2010, 06:30 AM

Hows about CANNON law, You know, like the guy at the circus, with out the net?:confused::eek:;)

Awwww sorry mate....I'm just a poor old uneducated protestant :p

RICHARD

04-08-2010, 07:15 AM

Awwww sorry mate....I'm just a poor old uneducated protestant :p

We all pray to the same 'god' when we get into trouble.;)

Marigold2

04-08-2010, 08:24 AM

Well most of us pray to the same God Richard, not all.
Having grown up Lutheran, (German Luthean) service was in German I was taught to believe that only God can forgive a sin.
Not a priest or a pope, but God.
So the whole Catholic confession thing is confusing and upsetting to me.
I did not understand how one can murder, rape and do other horrible sins, confess to a priest and be forgiven. How does this priest whom you might not even know, see into your heart? How can he know that you are truly sorry? Will the $500.00 you slip him make it easier to cheat on your wife next time and be forgiven once again? Priests are after all just men who went to school to study a certain line of thought and now as a job they wear a robe and pray, do weddings and funerals for a living. It is a job after all like being a nurse or judge, they too wear a uniform and deal with life and death. And even though the nurses see a human at their most frail, naked and frighened they do not tell them they can save their soul,
nor do Dr's or judges.
I believe only God can forgive, since only he holds the keys to heaven. Or does the priest e-mail his requests for souls before hand to let into the pearly gates? Do they send a permisson slip with that?

wombat2u2004

04-08-2010, 09:50 AM

Maybe that's the bait. ;)

Asiel

04-08-2010, 01:36 PM

I believe that research has shown, time and again, that rape is NOT a sexual issue.

Molestation is not a sexual issue...it is a deviant mindset.

Being gay does not make someone a pedophile. There is simply no relation to one's sexual preference and molestation. Gays like men or women....pedophiles like CHILDREN.

Allowing or disallowing priests to marry doesn't alter the deviant mindset of molestation. Molestation is NOT caused by some pent up sexual frustration.

Wacked is wacked...whether you are married or not.

Cataholic makes a lot of sense in this post. I can understand some people thinking that letting priests marry might make a difference and in a small minority it might.
But many pedophiles, homosexulas are married and it doesn't change their mindset. There are as many sexual deviants in married couples that in all walks of life.
I'm sure many of us know of these odd couples who will spend hours watching porno , including porno of little children...are these not sexual deviants?
If marriage would be the answer to this problem then you wouldn't see these half *ss deviant couples having to turn to porno to satisfy themselves. When police raid their homes and come out with box after box of porn with little kids posing I'd say they are simply deviants regardless of the life they chose. Being married is another way for them to hide , just like hiding behind priesthood.
Your neighbour could be one of them and you would never suspect it from the facade he displays for the neighbourhood. Heck, some of these sickos even use their own kids and make them pose for videos...sick!!

kokopup

04-08-2010, 07:54 PM

It is true that at this late time, marriage will not fix the problem within the church, but it is a beginning. The original reason the church came up with the no marriage law was to remove the possibility that his offspring would have any claim on the church. Celibacy today is their way of insuring status quo. The Power of the Papacy is dependent now on keeping their Priest beholden to the powers in the Vatican. If there was a witch hunt today to root out all of the deviant Priest the church would collapse. It may collapse in spite of all they can do anyway. The payout for hush money is approaching 1.5 billion and with the coffers shrinking it may just be a matter of time. The Pope is in big trouble of his own making and it will become increasingly hard for him to talk out of both side of his mouth.

I do not agree with Cataholic of simplistic assessment of gays verse pedophile since there are gays that are also Pedophiles. It becomes a thing of opportunity when he is insured by THE POWERS that there is no penalty for getting caught. It is true that marriage does not insure that there will not be deviate behavior because we see in our general public married gays and pedophiles. The problem facing the RCC is they have inbred the priesthood that has become increasingly deviate in nature. Celibacy is not natural and no matter how hard the church has tried, it has not worked. A thousand years of failure should have taught them something. Vatican 2 was their chance to get it right but the current Pope as "Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith" saw to it that the cloak of secrecy returned to hide the guilty. Now as Pope Benedict the 16th he has a long rocky road ahead.

wombat2u2004

04-09-2010, 06:18 AM

No, I don't agree with Cataholics post either. Too general, when a multitude of variables exist.

As I posted previously, priests must be held accountable for their crimes under the Common Law, and be punished as anyone else in the community would be for the same crimes....and add to that person or persons who have given sanctuary to the perpetrators, who use a religious establishment as a safe haven for them.
Marriage I believe would help the situation, as Bill said, it's a start.......and if it helps, then it has to be worth a shot.

I am aware that their are pedophiles, gays, pornographers, molesters, rapists etc etc in the community, married or not, nobody is disputing that here. But how would you feel if there were a special law to protect these people ??? I don't know Asiel if you have children, Cataholic has a child. I have children. Most people here on this forum have children.
Think about that.....!!!!!
A law....a very special law to protect those who violate children.
How do you think the community would react to that ????
I'm sure the community would have something to say to the lawmakers....do you think ????
But here we are accused of verbally attacking the Catholic church !!!!
Double standards ???? I believe so.

Asiel

04-09-2010, 09:22 AM

Of course I have children. If I didn't I wouldn't take this matter so seriously. I also count the hundreds of children who have passed through my doors to be part of mine. And yes, we do need a law that will bring justice for the crimes on our children but it never seems to get anywhere no matter how hard the general public tries. We've been fighting these crimes for ages and nothing seems to have come of it, the priests , bishops etc are still protected behind closed doors. The abused are the ones paying the piper.

wombat2u2004

04-09-2010, 09:35 AM

Asiel

04-09-2010, 11:15 AM

One can only keep hoping I guess. Maybe someday in the distant future it will happen. I don't see anything changing real fast around here yet.
I'm actually waiting to see what the Pope's next move will be....

Marigold2

04-09-2010, 06:35 PM

Maybe he should step down, it's the honest thing to do.

lizbud

04-09-2010, 07:08 PM

Does anybody think that the problem would be solved by the Pope
stepping down? Do you think child abuse happens only in the Catholic
Church? Or how about freeing priests from vows of celibacy will help end
child abuse.

Here's an interesting article to consider on these questions.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/235885

kokopup

04-09-2010, 08:29 PM

I agree with just about every thing that this writer said but there was one glaring problem, Joseph Ratzinger. Before becoming Pope it was his policies that made the problems worst since vatican 2. The cloak of Secrecy made it appear that things were better since 2002, when all the while payouts for silence are at an all time high. The very man that denounced the deviate behavior as Pope was the same man that created the cloak of secrecy that bred deviate behavior since Vatican 2.

It is true that there is a global problem with sex abuse in all segments of society. In the general public Homosexually is about 10% or 1 in 10 people you know may be homosexual. In the Priesthood they can't agree on an actual % but it is between 25% to 75 % of the clergy. Marriage may not be the solution
but if marriage was agreed on by the Vatican(hold your Breath) then their power would be diminished and over time the problems could be rooted out of the RCC. Civil law could be used to prosecute rather than hiding behind rehab and transfers. The POPE has to much power PERIOD.

Marigold2

04-09-2010, 09:36 PM

The pope should step down because he hid a crime, sex abuse against children, he should be sent to jail, just as any other person would if they hid a crime like this.
The law should apply to all regardless of status, money, power. Sex abuse against children needs to be stopped and if that means sending the pope to jail as the ringleader for hiding this crime then maybe that is what it will take to get the ball rolling and keep our children safe.
This is NOT about the church!!!! This is ABOUT children who were sexually abused and have a right to see their rapists jailed so no other child has to suffer.
I understand people have great loyalty to the church. But what about the children, are they not more inmportant then grown men in robes weeding out judgement right and left while sexually abusing that very child.
How can anyone put the church above a child?

blue

04-10-2010, 01:28 AM

wombat2u2004

04-10-2010, 03:12 AM

I'm actually waiting to see what the Pope's next move will be....

Well that's gonna be real interesting when it happens.
I think he's going to have some explaining to do :eek:

wombat2u2004

04-10-2010, 03:15 AM

wombat2u2004

04-10-2010, 03:17 AM

How can anyone put the church above a child?

It's seems Ratzinger has.

wombat2u2004

04-10-2010, 03:23 AM

Still with the church and the pope?

Somebody run the numbers of the abused kids in the USA alone. Does the church or state and fed foster care abuse more kids? Obama is the head Fed, he should report to jail for all of the kids abused in the foster child system.

No Blue....you got it all wrong.
What we are saying is that ALL people who abuse kids should be answerable.
And at the moment the priests within the Catholic church are not answerable in the same way as everyone else is.
If someone sexually abuses a child, they should be given a penalty, regardless of who they are or where they are.....and that penalty should be the same for everyone who commits that crime.

blue

04-10-2010, 03:34 AM

No Blue....you got it all wrong.
What we are saying is that ALL people who abuse kids should be answerable.
And at the moment the priests within the Catholic church are not answerable in the same way as everyone else is.
If someone sexually abuses a child, they should be given a penalty, regardless of who they are or where they are.....and that penalty should be the same for everyone who commits that crime.

What do I have wrong? I have stated, anybody who abuses a child, forfeits any rights they have, including the right to live.

wombat2u2004

04-10-2010, 03:44 AM

What do I have wrong? I have stated, anybody who abuses a child, forfeits any rights they have, including the right to live.

Yeah, but you made a point a while ago that everyone here was attacking or demonising the church. So why should the church be treated differently ??
If the Pope is guilty of hiding the true facts, then he should also face the consequences.

blue

04-10-2010, 03:55 AM

Yeah, but you made a point a while ago that everyone here was attacking or demonising the church. So why should the church be treated differently ??
If the Pope is guilty of hiding the true facts, then he should also face the consequences.

The media, not everybody on PT, is attacking the Church and the Pope.

Why are the Church and the Pope being targeted instead of our foster care system? Same reason teachers who abuse children get a pass while innocent priests get cavity searched just for going to mass.

If the Pope is guilty he forfeits his life, hopefully in eternity as well.

wombat2u2004

04-10-2010, 04:00 AM

Why are the Church and the Pope being targeted instead of our foster care system?

Because the church is headed by the Pope, who chooses to hide the pedophiles within their ranks.

blue

04-10-2010, 04:08 AM

Because the church is headed by the Pope, who chooses to hide the pedophiles within their ranks.

Obama is hiding teachers who target children in our schools. If you need proof...

He named NAMBLA approved Arne Duncan as Education Czar.

Google NAMBLA if you really want to be pissed off.

wombat2u2004

04-10-2010, 05:01 AM

Obama is hiding teachers who target children in our schools. If you need proof...

He named NAMBLA approved Arne Duncan as Education Czar.

Google NAMBLA if you really want to be pissed off.

Nambla is a dead horse.......
"Since 1995, public criticism and law enforcement infiltration have heavily impaired the organization. Its national headquarters now consists of little more than a private mail box service in San Francisco, and they rarely respond to inquiries. Some reports state that the group no longer has regular national meetings, and that as of the late 1990s to avoid local police infiltration, the organization discouraged the formation of local chapters"

Public criticism toward NAMBLA ?? Because the people don't want pedohiles.
Law Enforcement Infiltration into NAMBLA ?? Because what they propose is against the law.
Catholic Church criticism ?? Because the people don't want pedophiles.
Law Enforcement in the Catholic church ?? None !!!!

Marigold2

04-10-2010, 08:41 PM

And so Blue should this also then be the fate of the priets and the pope?

What do I have wrong? I have stated, anybody who abuses a child, forfeits any rights they have, including the right to live.

blue

04-10-2010, 08:51 PM

And so Blue should this also then be the fate of the priets and the pope?

If they are indeed guilty, yes.

blue

04-10-2010, 08:59 PM

Nambla is a dead horse.......

The dead horse is alive and well with Arne Duncan as education czar.

"Since 1995, public criticism and law enforcement infiltration have heavily impaired the organization. Its national headquarters now consists of little more than a private mail box service in San Francisco, and they rarely respond to inquiries. Some reports state that the group no longer has regular national meetings, and that as of the late 1990s to avoid local police infiltration, the organization discouraged the formation of local chapters"

And yet NAMBLA chapters are still active.

Public criticism toward NAMBLA ?? Because the people don't want pedohiles.
Law Enforcement Infiltration into NAMBLA ?? Because what they propose is against the law.
Catholic Church criticism ?? Because the people don't want pedophiles.
Law Enforcement in the Catholic church ?? None !!!!

You really think there isnt law enforcement within the Church?

kokopup

04-10-2010, 11:45 PM

BLUE

The dead horse is alive and well with Arne Duncan as education czar.

Blue you need to research your material a little better. The only thing for sure
is that Fox and the Washington Inquirer smear campaign have been proven wrong and there is no association between Duncan or Jennings and the Nambla. Jennings founded the Gay and Lesbian Independent School Teachers Education Network but has openly denounced NAMBLA as has Duncan.

blue

04-11-2010, 12:32 AM

BLUE

Blue you need to research your material a little better. The only thing for sure
is that Fox and the Washington Inquirer smear campaign have been proven wrong and there is no association between Duncan or Jennings and the Nambla. Jennings founded the Gay and Lesbian Independent School Teachers Education Network but has openly denounced NAMBLA as has Duncan.

You defend one group of pedofiles because Fox news may have attacked them. Is the Washington Inquirer a real newspaper or is it like the Onion?

I know Duncan isnt officially NAMBLA but that doesnt mean he hasnt condoned their ideals.

Has the Church done wrong? Yes it has. Does every member of the Church deserve to be smeared as a molester? No they dont.

wombat2u2004

04-11-2010, 02:19 AM

Does every member of the Church deserve to be smeared as a molester?

Blue.....nobody is of the opinion that every member of the church is a molester. But the ones that are, must be brought to task.
Nobody here is attacking the Catholic church, or attacking Catholics.
We are just questioning why, in this day and age, why it's the way it is.

wombat2u2004

04-11-2010, 02:20 AM

You really think there isnt law enforcement within the Church?

Yes.

blue

04-11-2010, 02:26 AM

Blue.....nobody is of the opinion that every member of the church is a molester. But the ones that are, must be brought to task.
Nobody here is attacking the Catholic church, or attacking Catholics.
We are just questioning why, in this day and age, why it's the way it is.

The main stream news in the states wants us to believe that the Pope has raped babies.

If we are asking why, I want to know why the Church is the target and not the foster care system?

blue

04-11-2010, 02:28 AM

Yes.

I got a tinfoil hat answer but dont have the patience to type it out.

wombat2u2004

04-11-2010, 02:45 AM

The main stream news in the states wants us to believe that the Pope has raped babies.
If we are asking why, I want to know why the Church is the target and not the foster care system?

The Pope's job before he was elected to Pope was to protect the church from embarassment and liability. Admitting guilt was never an option.
So he swept the whole lot under the rug.
I don't know about you Blue....but I'm pretty sure I would never allow my children to be taught in a Catholic school.
As far as punishment goes, the guilty were relocated and probably given a slap on the hand. Who knows where these guys ended up....at the school down the road from me, at the school near you. How do you know where they have been relocated to ??? Is the Pope going to tell you ???? No, because he doesn't want you to know, and he doesn't want the world to know.
"If we are asking why, I want to know why the Church is the target and not the foster care system?"
Why are you people so paranoid about this ???? It doesn't matter who the target is !!!! The intent is to rid the community of these molesters, and at the moment, it's Catholic policy to hide these people.

Miss Z

04-11-2010, 07:17 AM

The main stream news in the states wants us to believe that the Pope has raped babies.

Good grief! I can see why you liken the crimes of the Pope to Obama being responsible for every criminal in the USA. The media do what they usually do, whip up a frenzy. It makes money. And it's exciting. ;)

Blue, am I right in assuming that the word from the Vatican to the dioceses is cooperate with all investigations?

That leaves me in two minds. I believe that answers the point about law enforcement in the church - of course there is, in all of the nations the faith spans. Yet, the fact the Pope has to proclaim what he has begs the question, would they evade the questioning behind the hood of pontifical privacy, were he not to tell them otherwise?

Not intended as a smear, indeed, I would imagine most religious authorities would look to their pontifex above all else. I just wonder what your opinion is on this?

wombat2u2004

04-11-2010, 08:16 AM

I got a tinfoil hat answer but dont have the patience to type it out.

Why ????

kokopup

04-11-2010, 09:45 AM

Miss Z

Not intended as a smear, indeed, I would imagine most religious authorities would look to their pontifex above all else. I just wonder what your opinion is on this?

This seems to be addressed to Blue, however I thought I would give my thoughts on your question. First you are using a Term to describe a church leader that has been distorted in recent years. "Pontifex" as it applies to the church would apply only to the Pope of the RCC , since they are the one church organization that has a figure of this statue and power. "Pontifex" has been used by several radical groups such as "White Supremacy" groups here in the US. The RCC Leadership is the only orginization that is really under question by the original post. True there are people in places of power that maybe shouldn't be there. We can not take the position that as long as you have "this" or "that" happening you should not be bad mouthing the church. Discussing the lack of leadership in the church was the whole point of the thread. We can't take the position that the church is off limits as long as Obama is making bad appointments. These are all typical smoke screens that are used by some to high jack a thread. This is so typical.:confused:

Miss Z

04-11-2010, 10:49 AM

Miss Z

This seems to be addressed to Blue, however I thought I would give my thoughts on your question. First you are using a Term to describe a church leader that has been distorted in recent years. "Pontifex" as it applies to the church would apply only to the Pope of the RCC , since they are the one church organization that has a figure of this statue and power. "Pontifex" has been used by several radical groups such as "White Supremacy" groups here in the US. The RCC Leadership is the only orginization that is really under question by the original post. True there are people in places of power that maybe shouldn't be there. We can not take the position that as long as you have "this" or "that" happening you should not be bad mouthing the church. Discussing the lack of leadership in the church was the whole point of the thread. We can't take the position that the church is off limits as long as Obama is making bad appointments. These are all typical smoke screens that are used by some to high jack a thread. This is so typical.:confused:

Thanks kokopup.

Eek, I don't know that much about supremacy sects over there, to be honest. I had no idea 'pontifex' in that context gave such an image! I use it in the purely Latin sense; the chieftain. Will be more careful using that next time. :p

I agree that the church isn't off limits, but what I was previously getting at, and what I believe Blue was saying, is that such 'corruption' is not exclusive to Catholicism. No matter who or how they worship, there's people who will abuse the system by using it as an excuse when they need to get out of trouble.

I'm an atheist, so the pros and cons and Chinese whispers about each religious division mean nothing to me. I only believe in respect for faiths, so I think picking out supposed flaws in the teaching systems and underlying beliefs of Catholicism only added to the 'let's all point the finger' scenario.