Torn ACL *3/6/10 8wk Check Up* [Archive]

Seravieve

12-19-2009, 09:44 AM

Well Eli and Treo were playing a few weeks back and somehow Eli managed to damage his CL... We're taking him in Tuesday so the vet can sedate him, Xray, and determine if it's a complete tear or just partially torn.

I've been reading some online about it and the articles are half and half... some say surgery works, some say decreased activity/pain meds work just as well.. He's already on Deramax for his spine issues, so that helps some I guess. Everyone has said surgery or no surgery, arthritis will still show up in the knee, so its a toss up I guess. He's 3 years old, ~70 pounds, not overweight by any means... he doesnt quite fit the 'general' category of dogs who get this injury, so it's kind of annoying that it happened. Especially since my other half just lost her job this past week.. the company is most-likely closing up shop in two weeks (1100 employees... :rolleyes:).

Was wondering if anyone's had to go through this with their dog, What you opted for, etc?

chocolatepuppy

12-19-2009, 09:55 AM

My Lacey had both knees done when she was around 4 and 5. She is now 9 and a 1/2 and still walking.:) She's in the 70# weight range. No serious arthritis at this point. She may be slow getting up after lying a while but she is getting older.
She had the rubber band type surgery, not as expensive as the TPLO(?) surgery, which btw, scares me. Both of her ligaments were totaly torn, in half, so surgery was the only option.
I hope Eli's is not as bad and maybe rest will help it heal.

kokopup

12-19-2009, 09:13 PM

Koko had to have both CCL's repaired at age one year. She is a big dog but not over weight at 100 lb. Both of her knees gave out because of Hip dysplasia. They say when one Knee goes, when the hips are involved, both will go. The local ortho Vet wanted to do TPLO so I took her to Auburn Univ because they do the Fishing line type and TPLO. Since her surgery her Knees are as good as new. When a low pressure comes in, that brings rain, she usually has that pained look because of arthritis in her hips. They did not recommend surgery for her hips so we give her Glucosamine, Chondroitin, and Msm as a daily supplement. I give her aspirin or Remidal when she is in pain. I do not advise having TPLO there are to many risk.

Seravieve

12-19-2009, 10:06 PM

Thanks for both of your replies. It's good to hear what others have done, even though the detail are a little different.

Eli is already on a daily Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplement as well as Deramax. And he also has arthritic degeneration in his spine, near his hips, and up near his shoulders, which causes him to arch his back excessively and has lead to muscle spasms (which I initially thought were seizures! :eek: Was so scary the first time I saw it.). Our vet thinks the damage to his spine was from some sort of trauma... So I guess his previous owners did a number on him in the few months they had him (~3 months). The Deramax helps him relax his back some and be more mobile, and has put an end to the muscle spasms (fingers crossed) as he hasn't had one in at least 6 months.

So this whole CCL thing has just added more stress to his already weakened back end... rather aggravating. We're trying to keep him as calm and relaxed as possible. Hoping to prevent any further damage to either knee. It just tough since Treo and him LOVE to play race and chase and he can't jump and run like he should be able to.

K9karen

12-19-2009, 10:44 PM

Cody had both his knees done, 2 months apart, when he was around 5.

He sailed through everything like a trooper. I had to keep him quiet (yeah, a yellow lab. golden retreiver) for 6 weeks with each surgery. Luckily, the weather was nice each time, so I moved into the downstairs family room with him since there's a door to the yard. First day was Rimydal, I think, afterwards, Maalox coated aspirin. As long as he had company, he was fine, well behaved. He lost 30 needed pounds. No kitchen table to beg at, and no stoopid hoomans to accommodate the big brown eyes.

Afterwards, he was back to normal, no setbacks. I took it harder than him.

Good luck with Eli. Big kisses for him.

Freedom

12-20-2009, 08:59 AM

My friend had her miniature poodle in Agility, and he did this. So it doesn't matter if he is overweight or not, it is how they land, and can happen to any of them, in theory.

Teddy was 2 years at the time. She went with the vet's recommendation for the surgery. She said keeping such a young active pup calm during the recovery was a bit of a challenge, but he healed up fine. He is 3 years old now. He is no longer in Agility, and both of them miss that.

Wait for the xrays, listen to what the vet says and recommends. Take notes so you can think about it at home, if need be.

Best wishes!

Kona & Oreo's mom

12-20-2009, 12:06 PM

I'm so sorry to hear that Eli hurt his knee. I hope that you'll get some answers from the tests on Tuesday, and I hope that he feels better soon!

Oreo ruptured her CL on her 10th birthday. Our vet gave us the choice beween traditional extracapsular repair surgery and TPLO surgery. Not having surgery wasn't an option for us because of her size--65 lbs.--and because of the complete tear. We chose to do the traditional surgery because it didn't involve bone changes. An orthopedic surgeon came to our regular vet's office, which I think was great because he had lots of experience with the procedures. I wrote about Oreo's surgery and recovery here (http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=148458&highlight=Oreo+knee) and here (http://petoftheday.com/talk/showthread.php?t=150173&highlight=Oreo+knee).

It's been a little over a year now, and Oreo is walking and running great! The vet said Oreo has great range of motion for any 11-year-old, which she attributes to Oreo being in athletic shape before the injury. Oreo has very little arthritis and pain only very occasionally when she overdoes it. I'm thrilled with the result: she has truly exceeded my expectations.

Best wishes to Eli and you.

Seravieve

12-22-2009, 10:43 PM

Eli's back from the Vet's... and not with good news... He completely tore his Cruciate ligament. The Vet recommended TPLO, but he cannot do it himself. It'd have to be with a specialist or with this traveling surgeon, who'd come into their office. He said $2k for the TPLO with a specialist, maybe somewhat cheaper with the traveling guy. He said there's no damage to the knee bones, which is good. And he was surprised how well Eli gets around with it completely torn. Attributed that to the Deramax, which eliminates the inflammation.

Koko, why do you say there are too many risks with TPLO?

I tried to do some research on CCL damage, most people said the outcomes of regular surgery vs TPLO were pretty equal, but for some reason the Vet doesnt think so. He said we'd get much better results with the TPLO, than the regular surgery, which he could do for ~$500-600.

We're kind of at a loss... J just lost her job last week to 'downsizing'... :rolleyes: so coming up with an extra $2k is a stretch right now. $600 wouldn't be as bad, but when he acted like the results would be so poor... Its a hard decision.

It's also hard because this isn't our normal vet, he's just the one in the office who'd be able to do the surgery. Our normal vet isn't able to do so I guess, so she had us see him instead. So trusting him... is kind of hard too. Although, I know she trusts him, enough to share an office with him (and has for many years).

On a good note, his hips look excellent (always worry since he has so many bone issues...) and he was a very good patient.

boomersooner

12-23-2009, 09:41 AM

I'm so sorry about Eli. Our cockapoo tore hers when I was in college, then almost two years to the day tore the other one. Our vet did it. Never was a mention of a specialist. Of course, this was back in the early 80's. She lived to be almost 16 and never had any problems whatsoever. I hope everything goes well with Eli whatever you decide to do.

Seravieve

12-23-2009, 05:24 PM

Thanks Boomer. =)

Looks like we'll be getting a second opinion next Saturday (Jan 2nd). J called another vet today and actually was able to talk to the doctor directly. He spent quite a while explaining the in's and out's of ligament damage to her. He explained SO much more than our vet. I love our regular Vet, but the guy we saw is always less than impressive. So the new vet she talked to still thinks that its possible that its not completely torn, even though that's what the first Vet said. He said since Eli is willing to occasionally walk on it, run on it and even tip toes, that its a possibility. He would also be able to do the regular ligament surgery, TPLO or TTA. He said TTA is a newer surgery, with a much quicker healing time (1 month) and a more natural outcome/movement, for approx the same price. So we'll see. I guess we'll be looking into the Care Credit program.. so that'd make it easier for us to afford it.

boomersooner

12-24-2009, 08:23 AM

If he is able to put weight on it and walk, then I would guess it isn't completely torn, either. Kacie, our dog, couldn't or wouldn't put any weight at all on hers, and she was a small dog. Her leg was completely in the air until it was repaired.

Seravieve

01-03-2010, 08:55 AM

Well We met with another vet yesterday, who was way way way more informative that the first. He did several tests on Eli's leg and says that it is partially torn, but very close to being completely torn. And after some more Xrays... it was determined that he's not a candidate for TTA, as the slope of his bone is too high, so TPLO it is. This vet didnt want to do the fishing line surgery on him either, so I figure there's reason not to when two vet's say no. We were really hoping for TTA, as they return to normalcy so much quicker than with TPLO, but of well. Nothing we can do about that.

So he goes in on Thurday for the surgery... We'll be dropping him off the night before and wont get to pick him up till Friday. Going to be a sad day and a half without him here.

chocolatepuppy

01-03-2010, 08:59 AM

I'll keep Eli in my prayers that things go smoothly. It's so hard to leave them at the vets.:( My Lacey had surgery three times, I know, only two back legs:rolleyes: Keeping them quiet is the hardest. For me, counting how many days down, how many to go helped.;)

kokopup

01-03-2010, 12:15 PM

Seravieve I'm sorry I did not see your post asking about why TPLO was risky. I researched both tplo and the old tried and proven fishing line approach and the fishing line had the least risk. With TPLO they are cutting bone and pinning it back together. If there are complications to the pin splice the only thing to do for correction is amputation. I had the Vetarinary School at Auburn Univ. do Koko's since they train the Vet's that do the Surgeries. One of my best friends is a Equine vet and he advised me to go with the old procedure since it was successful for years before TPLO and TTA came along.

I had the same feedback from my local Vet and the traveling ortho Vet advising TPLO saying the fishing line would not work. My friend who had been involved with the outcomes of both procedures adviced me to go with the old tried and proven. There is no reason why it will not work. Is there a Vet school near you. If so you might give them a call. I had to drive 70 mile and leave Koko overnight but it was well worth the distance.

It has been three years since her surguries and she runs like a dear. She had both kNEES DONE
6 WEEKS APART.

chocolatepuppy

01-03-2010, 12:19 PM

koko, I don't like the TPLO either. Too scary for me. My local vet actually did the surgeries. I called it rubberband, but am sure it was fishline, like you're saying.

kokopup

01-03-2010, 12:29 PM

You ask a surgeon advice on what to do and they will always advice the more
involved surgery. They don''t have to live with the outcome if things go wrong.
It just puts more money in their pocket if things do go wrong. With TPLO
they cut through the bone above and below the knee and then put it back
together with pins. I did not like the Risk that gave no better outcome.

chocolatepuppy

01-03-2010, 12:58 PM

lizbud

01-03-2010, 04:41 PM

kokopup

01-03-2010, 11:18 PM

Seravieve you might want to check out this clinic at the UNIV of MO Small animal hospital. I'm sure a resident surgeon could be contacted by phone and give you advice before proceeding with TPLO.
http://www.vmth.missouri.edu/small_an_clinic.htm

Seravieve

01-04-2010, 11:41 AM

Thanks koko for finding that link. I just hadn't had any time to look. J called this morning and they seemed to tell her the same thing.. TPLO, no more risks than with any other surgeries, blah blah blah.

J tore her LCL earlier this year, and wore a brace to help it heal. Not sure why we can't do that with Eli. Seems SO extreme to cut his bone and rebuild the joint.

I just don't know what to do at this point. Besides the limp, he's such a happy dog. I wish I could find someone who's willing to discuss non-surgery options or be willing to do the fishing line surgery. Just seems like an EXTREMELY important decision that I can't make. There's too many IF's...

kokopup

01-04-2010, 02:31 PM

There may be some repair taking place if the dog is kept completely restrained for 6 weeks. Koko had both CCLs torn and they repaired one and she was in her crate for 6 weeks before we took her back to have the other repaired. In the 6 weeks of being in her crate to recover from the first surgery she stopped limping
on the other knee during the recovery. When we had the second one repaired she was ready to go within a week. I still kept her in the crate for 6 more weeks but she did not have the recovery time on the second one that she did on the first. On the first I had to carry her out for a week or so when she needed to potty but with the second she was walking out fine the day she came back from surgery. I have to believe her second knee was to the point that surgery may not have been necessary after the 6 weeks in the crate. I may be wrong about it being
completely well but I do know she had stopped limping on it before we took her for the second repair.

It has been 3 years since her surgery and she has no signs that she ever had knee problems. When she stands still her rear legs quiver but the local Vet thinks that is because of her hip dysplasia.

Seravieve

01-06-2010, 10:18 PM

Well after LOTS of thought and phone calls and effort.. Eli's getting TPLO. I can't justify doing nothing and having scar tissue build up in his knee and cause arthritis. He's only 3 years old, so he has LOTS of jumping and playing so I want to do whats best. And with the 'slope' of his tibia joint, he will be more prone to problems later on if we don't do whats needed now.

We really feel that the second vet we took him to knows what he's doing. J actually called and canceled the surgery earlier today. And the Vet called her back and wanted to know what changed our minds. She then called me and we discussed some more.. and decided we should do it. So she took Eli up there and he spent another 45 minutes with J, going through web sites explaining what happened and disproving statements. He understood why we got so scared by all of the 'horror stories'. He said he's done ~25 TPLO/TTA surgeries in the past 1.5 months.. and none with complications thus far. That's rather encouraging. J got to learn more about him... he and his wife just bought the building and work there together, she's a feline Vet... so its their 'baby' so to speak, so I feel that he's honest and really knows what he's doing. Might actually switch to him if and when all this goes well.

J dropped him off tonight at 6 and we'll be able to get him Friday. A LONG time without my 'Wooties' but its for the best.

So, Pawsitive thoughts for Eli, please!! =) I know PT does wonders!

kokopup

01-06-2010, 11:02 PM

Ell will be in my thoughts and prayers. Be sure to keep us up to date on his progress.

chocolatepuppy

01-07-2010, 05:00 AM

Eli will be in my prayers. I'm sure all will go well.

Seravieve

01-07-2010, 06:45 PM

Eli's surgery went fine. It was finished around a little passed noon.
Going to get him tomorrow morning.. And we get to discuss a new problem they discovered during the surgery... Cardiomyopathy. Great. =/

chocolatepuppy

01-07-2010, 07:13 PM

Good to hear Eli's surgery went well. I'm sorry for the bad news. Will continue to keep that sweet boy in my prayers.

Seravieve

01-08-2010, 07:29 PM

We went and picked up our Eli at ~1 this afternoon. He did very well through the whole ordeal. We got to see the after Xrays and it looks like Dr V did a great job with the bone cut! When he realigned the bone before attaching the plate, the bone is actually touching along the whole cut, so it should fuse well.

He is confined to the living room now, resting comfortably in his soft LIME GREEN cast on his favorite doggie bed... Although he'd rather be following us around of course. This will be a LONG 8 weeks of confinement.. sleeping on the couch and all.

Once he has recovered from the surgery, we will be looking into his abnormal EKG and determine if he does have cardiomyopathy. He had several irregular heartbeats during the surgery, not back to back - just intermittent, so Dr V wants to use some monitor thing on him and record his heartbeat for a few days.

chocolatepuppy

01-08-2010, 08:51 PM

I'll bet it's good to have Eli home. Good luck with the confinement.

kokopup

01-08-2010, 11:29 PM

I''m glad that Eli's surgery went well. I have a hard time believing that the Vet can make a diagnosis of Cardiomyopathy, just from irregular heart beat. That can be caused by many things other than Cardiomyopathy. Surely you would have seen other symptoms before surgery that would have red flagged a serious problem. I'm hoping your vet is wrong and Eli was just reaction to anesthesia.

Seravieve

01-09-2010, 09:57 AM

Yea, I think so too. He just said it's a possibility and something we should definitely look into. Especially since its SO common in Boxers.

Here he is last night.. shaved butt and all! =)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/Seravieve/Dogs/eliaftertplo.jpg

kokopup

01-09-2010, 10:33 AM

Eli looks like he is just cooling it after a hard night on the town. I hope his recovery time goes well. I kept Koko in a crate and she adapted to it very quickly. I know the crate was needed after a week , because she would have been hard to keep down and not moving around to much. I believe Koko
felt more secure especially during the time she had pain. When we let her out to potty she always just went back in an laid down. We didn't even have to close the door.

They shaved Koko's hindquarter for both surgeries. Her's looked very strange because her hair is so long. I could not understand why they shave so far up when the knees were all that they operated on.

Seravieve

01-09-2010, 11:37 AM

Yea, we were hoping they wouldn't shave him much.. especially since his hair is so short. So far he's doing really well just hanging out in that same spot. I'm sure it has to do with all the meds too. He has a fentanyl patch (comes off monday with the bandage) and also has some oral pain meds, as well as the usual derramax. He should be good. =) He's such a cuddler anyways, so this seems to be ok for him... for now anyways.

lizbud

01-09-2010, 04:39 PM

Resting peacefully is good.:) I hope his recovery goes smoothly.:)

chocolatepuppy

01-09-2010, 06:58 PM

Take it easy Eli!:)

K9karen

01-09-2010, 11:06 PM

I love Eli's cast. He's recovering in style.
When Cody was shaved, he was nicked a few times, and very raw. I used Neosproin and he stopped licking. Eli's photo brought back memories. I hope Eli has a quick and painless recovery.

Bonny

01-10-2010, 09:52 AM

"GET WELL ELI" Rest up so your leg will heal. ((HUGs)) to you Seravieve You must have some great veterinaries. I hope the surgery is successful & the heart problem is just do to the anthesia.

boomersooner

01-10-2010, 01:04 PM

Sweet Eli, you'll be better in now time!!

Seravieve

01-17-2010, 08:54 PM

We're getting the staples out tomorrow at noon. The incisions look a lot better, no redness, hardly any swelling. And of course, he thinks he's all better and needs to run around, chasing his leash. Will update with new pictures tomorrow after the staples are removed! =)

chocolatepuppy

01-18-2010, 06:17 PM

Sounds like things are going well for Eli! How are you doing with keeping him calm?

Seravieve

01-19-2010, 05:55 AM

We're actually doing pretty well at it so far... Of course, he just finished his 'major' pain pills Sunday, so he's been a little drugged so far. He just hangs out in the living room on a pile of dog beds, blankets and pillows. He's always been a good sleeper and a major cuddler so he's been pretty good. We keep a leash on him at all times and crate him (w/ an E collar) if we leave. He's started to want to play with his leash though.. he'll paw at it and carry it around in his mouth. Like he's walking himself. J is home most of the time, as she was laid of in Dec... so that actually works out well. He has left the incisions alone since day one, so we are comfortable with keeping him out of the E collar while he's supervised. Hardest part really is keeping Treo from jumping on him. She's such a wild child.. always running around like a nut.

Here's some pictures of his Xrays from after the surgery. Kind of interesting to see how they do the surgery. New Xrays will be done on Feb 4th (4 weeks Post OP). I'll have to work on a new picture of him, as I took some the other night, they looked ok on the camera's little screen, and then I opened them on the computer and they looked AWFUL! Staples came out fine yesterday, Vet says he looks good. Minor swelling, but its not an issue. Says he's doing good, as he's 'toe touching' while just standing around, which is good for this early.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/Seravieve/Dogs/eli-leg.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/Seravieve/Dogs/eli-leg2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v129/Seravieve/Dogs/eli-leg3.jpg

Grace

01-19-2010, 06:34 AM

I'm glad the recuperation is going so well.

Just had to say those X-rays are so cool!! (spoken as a retired RN)

chocolatepuppy

01-19-2010, 06:03 PM

Interesting X-rays! Good to hear you're not having too much trouble keeping him calm.:)

chocolatepuppy

01-30-2010, 10:16 PM

How's Eli doing?

MonicanHonda

01-30-2010, 11:18 PM

Gosh, that stuff is just so cool to see.

But it is definitely good to hear that doggy is doing alright.

Seravieve

01-31-2010, 12:09 AM

Eli's doing good... thinks he should be running around jumping like he's 100% healed.. lol. I have to physically hold him still when I get home from work, he just gets so excited and wiggly. He walks on the leg a lot more than he was a week ago... he still has a noticeable limp, but is doing good. The only time he holds it up off the ground is when he's outside, eating a meal or when he's just woken up. Some of his hair is growing back in.. pretty soon he wont be naked butt dog. Yay! 4 week check up is on Thurs, but will probably move it to Saturday, so J can go too. She and Treo are in Colorado this week... road trip to visit her brother and go snowshoeing.

I thought the Xrays were pretty cool too. Kind of weird to think all of that's in his leg.. It makes his knee noticeably wider I think. I'm looking forward to the 8week check up with new Xrays.. Will be interested to see the changes along the bone line. Eventually it should all fuse back together, to where the 'hardware' isn't needed.. and we could take it out if we wanted to, but we probably wont unless there are any problems that arise from it.

Seravieve

02-07-2010, 01:53 AM

All is well as of today. Vet said he looks good.. using it well. Incision looks great. Still a little swollen, so back to using the warm compress every day for 10 min or so. Other than that, looks good. If you asked Eli, he'd tell you he feels great! Of course, that's because he thinks he needs to run around like a crazy dog... getting stir crazy I think.

No stairs until 8 week Xrays come back ok unfortunately.. so 4 more weeks of sleeping on the couch for me! =)

Seravieve

03-06-2010, 09:24 PM

Eli had his 8wk check-up today... They took new x-rays today and can see lots of healing going on along the cuts. Said overall they look very good. Only thing thats not so good is one of the screws looks 'bent'... well, curved a little. Said he was being to active when that happened! Ooops. So we'll be using benadryl when needed to keep him calmer. He wasn't really concerned about the screw, but said he needs to be less active. Said he can now go up the stairs ONCE a day... slowly. And 5 five minute walks twice a day. Short leashed... physical therapy so to speak.

Two side notes.. #1: Dr V went to a tightrope seminar a few weeks ago.. said the only place they practice it is in MO, since it was developed here at Mizzou. Said the infection rate is 18%... due to the braided cord they use to stabilize the joint. And since the cord is braided... it is really hard so it can wear down the holes in the bones over time and cause more play in the joint. He bought a tighrope kit because he has a dog he will be using it on (story #2) and he brought it in to show us.. always awesome how much he's willing to explain. He was appalled by the infection rate... seeing as he's yet to have an infection on any orthopedic surgeries in his practice.

#2: Another patient of his had TTA done on one leg a while back (Pit/Sheppard mix)... well 10 days after surgery, it was pulling on a leash, trying to get to another dog and re-broke its leg! TTA is like $2500! Owners were crazy to put the dog in that situation... :rolleyes: So now the only thing to do is tightrope, because of where the bones broke. He was explaining how he will be doing the surgery.. sounds pretty tough.

chocolatepuppy

03-06-2010, 09:40 PM

Good to hear things are going well. Hopefully the bent screw won't be a problem. It's tough keeping them calm.

king2005

03-07-2010, 09:04 PM

Glad to hear he is doing well :) Also glad to hear you found a good vet like him. Sounds like a keeper so far!

MonicanHonda

03-08-2010, 06:52 AM

I'm glad Eli is healing!

Seravieve

04-03-2010, 08:40 PM

Took Mr Wooties to the vet today as its been almost exactly 3 months since the TPLO. Dr V said he is and I quote "ecstatic" about how well Eli is doing. He said he doing exceptionally well. Watched him walk for a while and stand around the office. Said there's still a slight limp -expected & normal- but he actually tends to use the repaired leg MORE than the other. And when he stands, he also shifts a lot of weight onto it.. which can be good, that its feeling that good, and bad, that there might be an underlying cause in his hips and/or other knee. We're going to get the Xrays our other vet took of his hips so he can see them.

On a side note, we're thinking he might have the beginnings of corneal dystrophy.. have been noticing some cloudiness in the centers of his eyes. Dr V looked at them, said its COMMON in Boxers, but doesnt think it is serious at this point. Just to keep an eye on him and make sure it doesnt get worse.

He also listened to his heart again, didnt hear any irregularities, and thinks the irregular EKG during surgery was probably anesthesia-related. So thats definitely good!

So he is free to take a 30 min walk once a week, in addition to the 2 daily 5 min walks, and stairs are FINALLY ok.... Of course, as long as he's not flying up and down them. =)