Dont Want Insurance, dont offer insurance? Get Fined!

[blue]

Under Senate health care plan, either way you pay
By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writer
Fri Jul 3, 7:25 am ET


WASHINGTON – First you paid to insure your car. Soon you may have to add health insurance premiums to that stack of monthly bills as well.

In a revamped health care system envisioned by senators, people would be required to carry health insurance just like motorists must get auto coverage now. The government would provide subsidies for the poor and many middle-class families, but those who still refuse to sign up would face fines of more than $1,000.

The details were unveiled Thursday in a health care overhaul bill supported by key Senate Democrats looking to fulfill President Barack Obama's top domestic priority.

The Congressional Budget Office estimated the fines would raise around $36 billion over 10 years. Senate aides said the penalties would be modeled on the approach taken by Massachusetts, which now imposes a fine of about $1,000 a year on individuals who refuse to get coverage. Under the federal legislation, families would pay higher penalties than individuals.

Called "shared responsibility payments," the fines would offset at least half the cost of basic medical coverage, according to the legislation. The goal is to nudge people to sign up for coverage when they are healthy, not wait until they get sick.

In 2008, employer-provided coverage averaged $12,680 a year for a family plan, and $4,704 for individual coverage, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation's annual survey. Senate aides, who spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly, said the cost of the federal plan would be lower but declined to provide specifics.

The legislation would exempt certain hardship cases from fines, which would be collected through the income tax system.

The new proposals were released as Congress neared the end of a weeklong July 4 break, with lawmakers expected to quickly take up health care legislation when they return to Washington. With deepening divisions along partisan and ideological lines, the complex legislation faces an uncertain future.

Obama wants a bill this year that would provide coverage to the nearly 50 million Americans who lack it and reduce medical costs.

In a statement, Obama welcomed the legislation, saying it "reflects many of the principles I've laid out, such as reforms that will prohibit insurance companies from refusing coverage for people with pre-existing conditions and the concept of insurance exchanges where individuals can find affordable coverage if they lose their jobs, move or get sick."

The Senate Health Education, Labor and Pensions bill also calls for a government-run insurance option to compete with private plans as well as a $750-per-worker annual fee on larger companies that do not offer coverage to employees.

Sens. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., and Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., said in a letter to colleagues that their revised plan would cost dramatically less than an earlier, incomplete proposal, and help show the way toward coverage for 97 percent of all Americans.

The Congressional Budget Office, in an analysis released Thursday evening, put the net cost of the proposal at $597 billion over 10 years, down from $1 trillion two weeks ago. Coverage expansions worth $645 billion would be partly offset by savings of $48 billion, the estimate said.

However, the total cost of legislation will rise considerably once provisions are added to subsidize health insurance for the poor through Medicaid. Those additions, needed to ensure coverage for nearly all U.S. residents, are being handled by a separate panel, the Senate Finance Committee. Bipartisan talks on the Finance panel aim to hold the overall price tag to $1 trillion.

The Health Committee could complete its portion of the bill as soon as next week, and the government health insurance option virtually assures a party-line vote.

In the Senate, the Finance Committee version of the bill is unlikely to include a government-run insurance option. Bipartisan negotiations are centered on a proposal for a nonprofit insurance cooperative as a competitor to private companies.

Three committees are collaborating in the House on legislation expected to come to a vote by the end of July. That measure is certain to include a government-run insurance option.

At their heart, all the bills would require insurance companies to sell coverage to any applicant, without charging higher premiums for pre-existing medical conditions. The poor and some middle-class families would qualify for government subsidies to help with the cost of coverage. The government's costs would be covered by a combination of higher taxes and cuts in projected Medicare and Medicaid spending.

For most of the 17 years after I turned 18 I havent had medical insurance, even if I where employed Ild rather have the extra money in my paycheck then MI. If this goes through Ill be fined for exercising my free will relating to my healthcare??

If it even looks like this will become law there will be even more layoffs and firings. Yay Nannystate Gov ideas!!!

[joycenalex]

blue, how will you manage if you get hurt in an accident or have an illness? i am curious. thank you joyce

[pomtzu]

Personally I feel that anyone that doesn't carry at least some health insurance, is putting themselves in a very bad position. If you do have a job that offers insurance at some cost to you and you choose not to get it, that little extra that you pocket every month is small potatoes compared to what you would put out if you needed even some minimal hospital treatment, or an MRI, or a cast for a broken bone, x-rays, and I could go on and on with small stuff that costs big bucks.

However, I don't feel that it should be mandatory to have it. It's your choice. And should it become mandatory, I'm positive that there will be those who still won't get it. Sure - car insurance is mandatory, but look at all that break the law and drive without it anyway. Healthcare insurance will be no different.

And so in the end, the people that do carry motor vehicle and health insurance, are the ones that pay for those who don't - in the form of higher premiums, hospital costs, etc., etc, etc.

It a vicious circle!:(

[Scooter's Mom]

blue, here are 2 good examples of why you should have medical insurance.

It costs me $23.00 each paycheck, $46.00 per month to have medical insurance through my employer.

I have one medication that has a copay of $25.00 - if I had to pay for that prescription each month out of my own pocket, it would cost me $581.00. PER MONTH. This is a medication I need in order to function on a daily basis... it's not pain meds, it's not even my blood pressure medication. It's for a neurological condition.

This doesn't even count the fact that things are going to happen such as surgeries, etc. You could be healthy like my husband... but he was rushed to the hospital a couple of years ago. His appendix ruptured and he had to have emergency surgery. That's the only time he's ever been truly sick in the 12 years I've known him. He was in the hospital 4 days. Had we ended up paying for that out of pocket, we'd have been bankrupt. Our total cost for his hospital stay and surgery? $500.00

Please, reconsider and take out health insurance.

[pomtzu]

Scooter's Mom - good examples. And how about those accidents?

I stepped on a dog toy (tennis ball) in the dark, and fell and fractured my wrist a couple of years ago. That turned out to be very costly - approaching $75,000 when all was said and done.

It was so badly fractured that it had to be surgically repaired. Just the metal outrigger that was screwed into my hand and arm was $14,000, and then there were all the other charges - emergency room, ER doctors, x-rays, operating room, anesthesia and anesthesia doctor, surgeon - all that just for the first day. Then it was back to the surgeon and x-rays every week for 7 weeks, then back into surgery after it was healed to have the outrigger removed, and then 6-8 weeks of physical therapy! I had good insurance, and it cost me not one cent for that accident. Could I have paid it with no insurance?? - no way!

Then 4 months after that, I slipped and fell on ice in my driveway and fractured my hip. I don't even want to total up the cost of that one, but again, I paid nothing out of pocket.

So even something that would seems rather simple, could totally wipe you out! To me, those extra few dollars in my pocket that I'm getting from not having to pay for any insurance, just aren't worth it. If it's taken out of your check, you never miss it, since you never had it in the first place.

[Grace]

Scooter's Mom - good examples. And how about those accidents?

I stepped on a dog toy (tennis ball) in the dark, and fell and fractured my wrist a couple of years ago. That turned out to be very costly - approaching $75,000 when all was said and done.

It was so badly fractured that it had to be surgically repaired. Just the metal outrigger that was screwed into my hand and arm was $14,000, and then there were all the other charges - emergency room, ER doctors, x-rays, operating room, anesthesia and anesthesia doctor, surgeon - all that just for the first day. Then it was back to the surgeon and x-rays every week for 7 weeks, then back into surgery after it was healed to have the outrigger removed, and then 6-8 weeks of physical therapy! I had good insurance, and it cost me not one cent for that accident. Could I have paid it with no insurance?? - no way!

Then 4 months after that, I slipped and fell on ice in my driveway and fractured my hip. I don't even want to total up the cost of that one, but again, I paid nothing out of pocket.

So even something that would seems rather simple, could totally wipe you out! To me, those extra few dollars in my pocket that I'm getting from not having to pay for any insurance, just aren't worth it. If it's taken out of your check, you never miss it, since you never had it in the first place.

Fractured wrist - fractured hip - do you take calcium supplements? How about some extra Vitamin D? Have you had a bone density test recently?

[pomtzu]

Fractured wrist - fractured hip - do you take calcium supplements? How about some extra Vitamin D? Have you had a bone density test recently?

Oh yeah - I take extra calcium and D - but I had a total gastrectomy back in 2000 and my absorption stinks because of it. It was after that, that my osteoporisis took off in a full gallop. I can't take any of the oral bone building meds because of my lack of stomach, and I just started on the Boniva I.V. treatment. It's like the once a year Reclast, but it's given quarterly rather than annually. I go for my 2nd treatment on 7/21. My orthopaedic surgeon said if my bones get any more porous, that he won't be able to see them on an x-ray. Of course the last bone density I had was pretty bad, so I'm hoping the Boniva works. Time will tell!

[Grace]

Oh yeah - I take extra calcium and D - but I had a total gastrectomy back in 2000 and my absorption stinks because of it. It was after that, that my osteoporisis took off in a full gallop. I can't take any of the oral bone building meds because of my lack of stomach, and I just started on the Boniva I.V. treatment. It's like the once a year Reclast, but it's given quarterly rather than annually. I go for my 2nd treatment on 7/21. My orthopaedic surgeon said if my bones get any more porous, that he won't be able to see them on an x-ray. Of course the last bone density I had was pretty bad, so I'm hoping the Boniva works. Time will tell!

The Boniva worked for Sally Fields - she was taking the oral dose. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Let me know how you do.

[pomtzu]

The Boniva worked for Sally Fields - she was taking the oral dose. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. Let me know how you do.

Thanks. I'll be on it for the rest of my life. I won't know how effective it is until the next bone density, but even if it just stabilizes and doesn't get worse, then I guess that will mean success. :)

[caseysmom]

My calcium is fine my injury was not a broken or fractured bone, I was just a clutz and this whole thing would have cost me a fortune had I not had insurance.

[DJFyrewolf36]

I have health insurance. At my current wage, I can't afford to have my husband on my insurance. Nicholas thankfully is covered by the state, but to add my husband would kick my insurance payment to over $200 and since he is self employed his options are limited. Im going back to school so I can get a better job (I hope) with more reasonable insurance rates.
I sure would hate to pay a fine because of not being able to afford insurance...I would especially hate going to jail for contempt if I didn't pay the fine.
Just a different perspective.

[catnapper]

I personally feel this is a concept whose time has come! I cannot tell you the number of uninsured people in the ERs. Even if they have a cold, they go because nobody is refused care in an ER. Insured or not. So those of us with insurance sit for HOURS waiting with our problems because the ER is clogged with uninsired people with regular problems a regular doctor should see.... but they won't go to a regular doctor because they don't have the money to see a regular doctor. So they go for colds and basic stuff handled in your family doctor's office.

The problem isn't a "free will" issue when its not just you who's footing the bill for millions of unisnured people who flood the ER for non-essential things. Its only free will when you take care of the bill yourself for $50,000 for a one day stay in the hospital. At that point, the $500 monthly copays for insurance start looking mighty cheap. In the past few years, I've had several family members in the hospital for one thing or another. And the cheapest bill would have been $50,000 --- the most was over $500,000. It was all paid by insurance, minus a couple hundred dollar deductible. Of course, we worried about paying the deductible, but its nothing compared to the real bill.

[RICHARD]

Everyone wants the regime to stay out of their business, but they want to be dictated to when it comes top their health.


Does that include mental health benefits?

[Twisterdog]

The problem with folks who don't have insurance ... and I was one of them for ten years, not by choice ... is that they do not actually take the risk of that decision on themselves.

If it were the case that someone who elects to deny insurance coverage, like Blue, could be denied treatment they could not afford, then it would be simple. Choose not to take the coverage, the face the consequences if you become ill or injured. That's fair. That's the ulitmate "government out of my business" theory.

However, it is not the case. Uninsured people cannot be denied emergency room treatment. This is why our emergency rooms are clogged with people who have a cold, a rash, a sore throat, a toothache. This is why an apirin costs $45 and a bandaid costs $69 at the hospital ... the people who can afford to pay, usually via their insurance, are paying for the hundred people that day who couldn't pay for their treatment.

It has to be all or nothing ... no insurance, no treatment. Or ... require people to carry insurance if you are going to require hospitals to treat them.

[RICHARD]

This is why our emergency rooms are clogged with people who have a cold, a rash, a sore throat, a toothache. This is why an apirin costs $45 and a bandaid costs $69 at the hospital ... the people who can afford to pay, usually via their insurance, are paying for the hundred people that day who couldn't pay for their treatment.




That is the problem- the 69 dollar bandaid. BEFORE THEY begin to mandate any HC for the masses the government/BO has to take care of the costs.

This is the effing stupidity that all evil empires put into place, for the good of the people, that kill the people-

It's the old 'carrot on a stick' ploy for us drones. If we don't take the carrot, they will beat the crap out of us with the stick.


How much will implementing all the regs cost us, what happens when you get caught without insurance? Will they get the IRS to dock your pay?

Put you in jail?

Take away your home?

"Oh, NO! they'll send you a bill!"

Find out who the lobbyists are who are paying these morons to pass that bill.

We'll end up paying more for the people who refuse to get insured becausee they will delay going to see a physician and be in worse shape when they do.

The current regime is hell bent on passing so many laws/bills they do not realize the real woirk that needs to be done to put a 'national HC system' into place.

The person who cannot afford HCI will be fined, putting them farther behind the curve when it comes to their finances, then we can spend more money employing thugs to track them down and get the money.

[blue]

blue, how will you manage if you get hurt in an accident or have an illness? i am curious. thank you joyce

So it shouldnt be my choice not to have health insurance? I am curious, why it shouldnt be my choice and my problem?

I could have lost my leg last year and I am still paying off that debt, my job at the time didnt offer insurance. Jim, my boss at the time, would have fired most of his employees if he was forced by the feds to cover us.

Our government was supposed to work from the bottom up, not from the top down.

[katladyd]

I had a job that offered health insurance, once. I could in no way afford it. It would have taken almost one-half of my paycheck! I still can't afford health insurance and I work three jobs! If they want to fine me, let them fine me. I won't be able to pay that, either. Sorry for all of you who can afford insurance who are inconvenienced by those of us who can't. I have to decide between health insurance and eating. I take eating. It would cost me over $600 per month, and that's without dental or vision insurance. I can't afford that!

[joycenalex]

no blue that is NOT what i asked.....you know that emergency/ critical/chronic health care is expensive, and my question IS just that....how do you plan to pay for that? When you use health care from the 21st century medical services, "someone" has already paid for the equipment that takes the xray, the medical physicist that makes sure the machine is running safely, the information systems gal that makes sure the images gets to the radiologist who reads the film, the technologist who takes the images, the maintenance contract on the digital image plate that holds the images that the radiologist needs to see if that bone is broken or there is an infection in the bone. "someone" packs and sterilizes the tray that cleans the wound to make sure that the patient isn't allergic to and sutures the wound, "someone" in pharmacy drew up the syringe that has the right antibiotic to 1-treat the infection and 2- would not cause an anaphylactic reaction (which means medical records pulled the any chart for the ER doc to check before meds are ordered and used and the pharmacist checked the electronic medical records lists of(possibly allergic drugs too,) so the safety double check happens ) . then to the saints in the ER...the admission clerk who gets as much info to start the process....john doe #1 if non responding, john doe #15 on a bad night..., the the nurse who pulls a sterile intubation tube to open an airway so john doe #8 keeps breathing while an or tech shoves packing into the wound so the blood stays in the person instead of making the floor slippery while the ER doc keeps the whole circus going, and the person from housekeeping(who gets no respect and minimal thanks) who mops then sterilizes the floor, so the next patient getsa a clean bay too and the supply clerk who whisks in to restock the trauma cart, ....and remember blue, this all happens da** fast, cause no one wants to wait, EVER in an ER...and when it's your kid or your elderly mom, it's a hundred times worse. we want 21st century almost instant medicine, yet having 19th century notions of (re)payment isn't gonna work. the days of a small town doctor, making due, with out xray or lab like the movies show is gone. and it's more then just your one person problem, it's become a problem for the whole of society.
blue, i'm not attacking or criticizing you, i'm seriously asking how do you pay for 21st century health with 19th ideas?
So it shouldnt be my choice not to have health insurance? I am curious, why it shouldnt be my choice and my problem?

I could have lost my leg last year and I am still paying off that debt, my job at the time didnt offer insurance. Jim, my boss at the time, would have fired most of his employees if he was forced by the feds to cover us.

Our government was supposed to work from the bottom up, not from the top down.

[joycenalex]

and i see insurance as this....i'm betting that i will need that service (auto/home owners/health/disability income) and my monies go to pay for it, in a group with a whole bunch of other people, and the insurance company is betting i won't need it.
i have gone years, when i was in my 20's without regular health care, but as i aged, things changed, and i need more health care, now in my 50's, i'm a pretty savvy consumer, having some choice in my care, so my bet with my (crappy employer provided health care) is different.
and insurance companies making billions of profit is immoral. making profit is not, no one works for free, but making so much money is gouging people. ....this is the company that is my employers choice for our health insurance provider(from the NYT article of 7/31/2007................."Humana, based in Louisville, posted net income of $216.8 million.....Revenue rose 19 percent, to $6.43 billion, compared with $5.41 billion a year ago, ....Michael B. McCallister, Humana’s president and chief executive, called it “probably the best quarter we’ve had” since he became the company’s chief executive in 2000. He said it was a result of “virtually every line of business doing better,” noting improvements in the commercial segment and expansion of the company’s Medicare business. "

[blue]

no blue that is NOT what i asked.....

Ive managed this long so far, Ill manage in the future. I allmost lost my leg last year and Im still paying for that infection. Its my choice and Im paying for it. I shouldnt be fined for that choice in this Country.

[pomtzu]

Ive managed this long so far, Ill manage in the future. I allmost lost my leg last year and Im still paying for that infection. Its my choice and Im paying for it. I shouldnt be fined for that choice in this Country.

I don't understand people saying they would rather pay off medical bills (maybe for years), rather than pay a relatively small amount (in comparison) for insurance each month.
I couldn't live with the possibility of "what if", hanging over my head every day without insurance, but that's just the way I am. Everyone is different, and if it doesn't bother you, then it must be worth the gamble. I never was a gambler! :( Had I been - I would have lost big time.

[beeniesmom]

Ive managed this long so far, Ill manage in the future. I allmost lost my leg last year and Im still paying for that infection. Its my choice and Im paying for it. I shouldnt be fined for that choice in this country.

I don't know... I guess you are right... it should be your choice, but it's not a very sensible one.
What other option do you think is plausable?
Instead of being fined, would you rather be refused treatment in case of emergency because you lack the common sense to have insurance?

Why should people who have insurance have to pay for you if you get hurt or sick in the future? It's my understanding that health insurance is so high because of the people who don't have it.

Regardless of that... I used to think I never would need it.
I'm young ... and WAS healthy.

I am so glad that I do. I've had so many medical issues pop up in the last two years, it's not even funny. If I didn't have health insurance already, I probably would not insurable now and I'm only 32. Better to pay a little now then be in debt up to your ass for something in the future.
Just my two cents. Take it however way you want.

[pomtzu]

Sorry for all of you who can afford insurance who are inconvenienced by those of us who can't.

It could come down to a whole lot more than just an inconvenience if there is no triage team to sort out the sniffles or diaper rash or headache of the uninsured, from more serious issues of the insured. I would hope that all ER's have one, but I would suspect they don't. I would have been one p.o.'ed puppy if I had been treated on a first come/first served basis when I fractured my wrist. As it was, my surgeon told me that several people ahead of me that had been waiting several hours, complained when I was taken back after only about a 15 minute wait. So sorry that the woman with a headache, and the one whose baby had diaper rash and with no insurance, was inconvenienced by me. And by the way - I'm paying their bill too!

And to all of you that say you can't afford it - what about state aid - Medicaid? If your income is at a level that you can't afford a pricey commercial policy, have you checked out other options? There's a lot out there that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. You just have to look for it, because it's not going to come to you. Even minimal coverage, is better than none at all.

[RICHARD]

There is a common misconception that Medi-Cal/Medic-Aid is there for the asking. IF you break a leg, for example, they will make you jump thru hoops before you even begin to see anyone for an illness.


Oh, I would not mind to see a state run insurance program for people who need to be covered.....but it has to be done with the patient in mind. Not companies who are out to make money selling info systems/replacement parts and meds.

Here's a little clue.

Look at companies in the "Heath Info System" race and see they have to offer, what the timeline of their product is-cutting edge tech is obsolete in what? 12 months? Check the stock value and compare it with all the news/press coming out of D.C.

The millions to be made are on the table now. The medical centers will pass along the costs of any Med Rec upgrades to the people using the system. It's the same with implants and meds. We all pay the best for so-so treatment anyway...so why all the excitement?:eek:


It's all about money.:rolleyes: