Can somebody explain the most recent Israel/Palestine conflict?

[Giselle]

:confused: Everything is so complex; I'm so lost. Can somebody please explain the background and reasoning behind this MOST RECENT conflict between Israel and Palestine? Thank you!

[Lady's Human]

Complex?

Failry simple, actually.

Hamas keeps launching rockets into Israeli territory, using civilian areas of Gaza as launch sites, and by doing so endangers both the civilians in Gaza and the people they're launching them at.

Israel decided they've had enough.

They're removing the immediate threat to their security, as any rational state would do.

[sasvermont]

Although I did not write this, I copied it from TheYoungTurks website and it makes sense to me:

If you're a conservative reading this, I know what you're thinking - typical liberal. Part of the blame America first crowd. How could this war between the Israelis and Palestinians be America's fault?

First, I love America. I chose to be an American. I think this is the greatest country on earth. And part of what makes it great is that it is self-correcting. It can take criticism and use it to make itself better. It is a country confident enough to not shout down dissenters.
So, let me offer you something you hardly ever hear in the American media. The American government had a great deal to do with the outbreak of violence in the Gaza Strip right now. The Bush administration demanded - against the advice of nearly every expert in the field and the Israeli government - that the Palestinians hold elections. They did. Hamas won.

When Hamas won, we could have pulled them in toward the direction of political action and reconciliation. Instead, we chose to isolate them, start a coup against them (read this terrific article in Vanity Fair about our attempt to overthrow Hamas) and further radicalize them. We made a mockery of the idea of democracy. We proved to them that we never meant a word of the so-called Freedom Doctrine. We only wanted elections in which our guys won.

This kind of hypocrisy has consequences. It sends a message that democracy and voting doesn't work. And our botched coup against Hamas had the effect of sending the message that violence is the answer. If you don't get your way, the proper course of action is to try to change the results through use of force.

We should have never insisted on the elections that everyone - but the inane Bush team - realized Hamas was going to win. It's not that elections are a bad idea, but it was too early in this instance. We should have laid the groundwork for Palestinians to vote in a direction that would have led to more constructive solutions. Instead, as usual, Bush was lazy and insisted on getting his way right away.

And if we were going to have elections, we absolutely, positively should have recognized the legitimate results of those elections and dealt with the consequences. In fact, this might have pulled Hamas into a governing role that demanded more pragmatism and a less radical outlook. It's easier to be a radical when you don't have to get anything done.

And on the Israeli side, we never urge caution. We always encourage over-reaction. Before Israel started this assault on Gaza, there was one Israeli casualty since the end of the cease-fire. Within the first couple of days of the Israeli assault, there are already 62 Palestinian civilians killed. And five more Israelis killed from more - not less - rocket fire from Gaza.

So, the attack has not accomplished its objective of stopping the rocket fire from Hamas - in fact, it's made it worse - and it has also killed a disproportionate number of civilians in Gaza. I do not find the argument that these civilian deaths are just "collateral damage" persuasive. It's easy to call them collateral damage when they are not your kids.

Which American would stand by and let another country bomb our cities, kill our children and then accept the excuse that the enemy was targeting military complexes but they just killed our kids as simple collateral damage? Would that sound persuasive to you if you lost your family members? Your wife? Your grandfather? Your daughter?

The US government's immediate reaction was to say all of this was Hamas's fault and that Israel was 100% justified in retaliating in any way they saw fit. And it wasn't just the Bush administration; Democratic leaders put out nearly identical talking points.

So, what does this lead to? More bombings from Israel and a further escalation of the circle of violence. We are not doing Israel any favors by encouraging their most hawkish instincts. Violence begets violence. They will never have peace of mind as long as these seemingly endless cycles of violence continue.

Of course, Hamas and Israel are also responsible for their own actions. It would be absurd to claim otherwise. But we can give them the right incentives and disincentives or the wrong ones. We can either push them toward reconciliation and settlement or we can push them toward more violence, war and mayhem. We have done the latter, for which we must take responsibility.

No doubt the next time a Muslim fanatic attacks American interests, we will say, "Why do they hate us?" The answer is very clear. We have pushed them toward it. They are ultimately responsible for their actions. But we must also be responsible for our own.

[Giselle]

Okay, so now that I'm up to point with the current situation...Who wants to give me a brief, concise, cogent background on the ENTIRE thing? :D

I've been filled in here and there on the Israel/Palestinian conflicts before, but I never fully understood it.

Thank you guys for educating me! I do appreciate it :) We are members of the ENTIRE human race and world. It only makes sense that we educate ourselves on people other than ourselves. Novel idea, right?

[Lady's Human]

No matter what someone posts about this conflict, someone will disagree with it.

[RICHARD]

At the end of the Second Grand War of the Planet, The displaced Jews were set into the area that is know as Israel.

I may be wrong on the facts about this-someone with a better understanding
of the area's history will set me straight!

After the war there were tons of Jews who escaped the persecution at the hands of Hitler and needed sanctuary. The Brits sectioned off areas in the ME for them and there were Arabs/Palestinians who were 'disenfranchised' -kicked out.

That area became Israel.

In Jerusalem, there are three different religions represented with landmarks that are important to each faction. The Palestinians have always laid claim that the area belongs to them and they are a refugee peoples. No other nation/government in the area chose to absorb them/assist or provide any kind of relief to the group. The Arab/Muslim community espouse an idea of 'brotherhood' but cannot make good on it, they don't want to Palis anywhere near them

The Hamas is a terrorist group of gomers who make it a habit of perpetuating the 'war' against Israel by shooting rockets, bombing and all that crazy shiat that has been going on for years.

If I remember correctly, the Palestinian refugee camps are the longest 'running' set of peoples who are living in a twilight zone because of the politics and stupidity involved. The Hama capitalize on that fact by setting up schools, medical aid and food to the people in the area. They then culitvate young people to 'help' them drive the state of Israel off the planet.

The Hamas bomb the Israelis, the Israelis fire back and the Hamas run around crying and biatching that they are the good guys and the Israelis are evil.

There was a 6 month cease fire that expired a few days ago so the stupid Hamas decided to fire it up again!

[Edwina's Secretary]

There are three sides to every story - his, hers and the truth. The problem is to figure out which is which. This one is so complicated and filled with emotions and religions and ancient history. Everyone believes they are right and the other guy is wrong.

I will not join this one as I am not that knowledgable in the area. Plus the euphemistically named "collateral damage" makes me sick. Except to say...Hamas IS the democratically elected government. Democracy can work many ways.

I suspect some people who know less than I will express opinions nonetheless.

[caseysmom]

It is hard to discern the truths since anything you read is slanted one way or another. I did read the autobiography of queen noor, she is an american who married the king of jordan.

She is an educated elequent story writer and did sort some of it out and did have some information that we are not necessarily given in the west.

All in all its a bad situation and I don't see it getting better.

[RICHARD]

I will not join this one as I am not that knowledgable in the area. Plus the euphemistically named "collateral damage" makes me sick.




Instead of CD try, People that get dead because THEIR people are morons.

Technically not very accurate but it's nicer than being caught up in the Blast Radius of a Hellfire Missile.........But, why do the Palis allow those morons to build 'military' bases near schools, hospitals and mosques?

Tell me, huh?

--------

I can hardly wait until the New President takes over. Then we can blame him for the American War Materials being used by the Israelis.

Just like the stuff we sold to Saddam.


No exchanges without a receipt!

[Lady's Human]

I suspect some people who know less than I will express opinions nonetheless.

And that was appropriate how?

Just returning fire, that's all.

[lizbud]

Oh, by the way, I did find one explanation of the conflict. It's a CBS article.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/29/eveningnews/main4690817.shtml

[sasvermont]

It is not so simple.

http://www.mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm:rolleyes:

[Edwina's Secretary]

Instead of CD try, People that get dead because THEIR people are morons.



This btw...was the kind of crap I was referring to. People who get dead because THEIR people are morons?

Disgusting.

[caseysmom]

This btw...was the kind of crap I was referring to. People who get dead because THEIR people are morons?

Disgusting.


That is most likely the same logic the folks used who blew up the world trade center, I sure don't think that way.

[Grace]

Richard got the basics down for you.

After WWII, The United Nations Special Commission on Palestine recommended that Palestine be divided into an Arab state and a Jewish state. The commission called for Jerusalem to be put under international administration The UN General Assembly adopted this plan on Nov. 29, 1947, owing to support of both the US and the Soviet Union, and in particular, the personal support of US President Harry S. Truman.

As you can imagine, the Jews loved this plan; the Arabs not so much.

On May 14, 1948, the British left; Israel declared they were an independent state, and the modern wars began. Israel and the Palestinians have been fighting ever since.

[RICHARD]

On May 14, 1948, the British left; Israel declared they were an independent state, and the modern wars began. Israel and the Palestinians have been fighting ever since.


Thanks, So maybe I was in the ballpark?:D


Let me clarify the "people that get dead" comment.

The terrorists get THEIR OWN PEOPLE DEAD because they do not give a shiat about them.

They build and hide terrorists shops that make the rockets, bombs and hide the mortars that they shoot into Israel.

When the Israeli's come back and blow the crap out of those sites the Hamas and every other goofball group start using the stupid media to say that innocent people were killed in a "directed" attack on those sites.

The goofballs shoot the rockets and mortars, which are random shots into neighborhood. When you have AHs that hide behind the skirts of women and the collection of the elderly and children to pull off some chicken shiat attacks on innocent people, how can they claim that they are being abused/killed/persecuted?

That's the nonsense that starts all the wars and problems in the area.

A bunch of lowlife turds that are not held responsible for their actions.

[caseysmom]

That's it, I've had enough.

I'm tired of the double standard which exists here.

Had I said that about a woman on this board I'd have had my head handed to me in an instant.

You constantly insult people, and constantly use condescending language when referrig to a few posters in particular.

How in hell you get away with it I have no idea, but I've had enough.

Take your elitist crap and find another place to peddle your superiority complex.

For the record I think that you did not deserve that comment Lady's Human and even though we sometimes disagree you treat the other side with respect that you are debating with.

[jennielynn1970]

My ex was a Palestinian living in Egypt.

There was a time where Palestinians were not allowed to get back into Palestine because Palestine wasn't considered a "country" and those people who were traveling or out of country were considered a refuge. His status, before he became an American citizen, was still a Palestinian Refugee.

Everything that I gathered from him, and a lot of it was more than I really wanted to know because it turned into a lecture at times. However, that being said, he really did know a lot about the circumstance. His grandfather also does journalism and radio talks about Palestinian causes (grandpa has lived here for over 40 years).

Almost of the strife you hear of now goes back to when the Jews were "given" the country of Palestine by after WWII. This is land they say they were promised in the Bible/Torah. However, there were people already living in that area, all over that area, and that area was called Palestine.

Instead of finding an area where they wouldn't be moving people out of their homes, it was decided to take all of the Palestinians and move them into a designated area, put them in refugee camps and basically remove all of their human rights. Much like what the Nazis did to the Jews.

Maybe it's just me, but how does what the Jews went through give them the right to do the same thing to another people?? I never understood that. It may have said in the Bible/Torah that you were supposed to be promised a certain land, but if someone else is already there, technically it's already taken, you can't just move them. At least I don't think you should be able to.

Why make others suffer because they had suffered??

My ex also had relatives who are Hamas. How about living in a shack of a house, and having no indication anything is going on, and in the middle of the night, a tank comes and plows down the house with the family in it? Killing everyone?? How does Israel get that right??


They have been, and will always be, fighting over the initial taking of the land. The Palestinians, and whomever else were there, deserve to have their land back. They deserve to live in homes, not refugee camps, not subjected to all the crap that they go through.

Just because in the Torah/Bible it said that the Israelis were promised that land by God, doesn't mean that another people should have been harmed to give it to them.

The whole thing makes me sick. The way one group treats the other. It just goes back and forth, and until the Palestinians get their land back, yes THEIR land, it's not going to stop, nor should it. I wouldn't want to be moved out of my house because in someone else's Bible it said it was "given" to them by God. I bought it, I live here, too bad, suck it up and go get your own place that no one is living in.

That's my take.


Wish my ex was around(he's visiting Egypt) cause he could write it out and explain it better than I could.

And yes, Palestinians are still considered refugees. From what I gathered in Egypt, citizenship was determined by the father, and my ex's father was Palestinian. His mom is Egyptian. Mom cannot give him citizenship (like we can here in the US). He was born in Kuwait, when his dad was working there, but is not a Kuwaiti citizen. His citizen ship goes with the father in Egypt, and his father is not an Egyptian. Citizenship over there is confusing.

[Karen]

I have deleted comments in this thread that were not appropriate for Pet Talk. Please remember to treat each other with respect.

[popcornbird]

Jenn Librarian, I completely agree with you. I have many, many Palestinian friends, and most of them have the same story. Refugees, kicked out of THEIR homeland. Everyone has the right to peace and safety in their land. Everyone has the right to peace and safety in their homes. Everyone has the right to defend their land and home from criminals. The Palestinians have suffered too long. They have been kicked out of the land that belonged to them. They were kicked out of their homes where they were raising up innocent families and children, and made into refugees, thrown into refugee camps to make room for foreigners who didn't belong there. Their homes were destroyed, family members killed. Why? Because the Jews think they're the chosen people, and that's the land God chose for them? Maybe its because of their crimes against humanity that God took the land away from them and gave it to another nation. The Israelis even hit a boat that was bringing in relief supplies for the victims in Gaza. Can you believe that?? Its a big shame. So many people have suffered in this conflict. So many children have been killed. And to think...this conflict wouldn't even exist if the land was just returned to its rightful owners. The Palestinians deserve to have their land returned to them.

The conflict in Palestine/Israel is just the fruit of injustice. Such situations will always arise when injustice is allowed to rule in the land. Only when injustice is abolished will peace prevail. God knows when and if that will ever happen. I don't see it happening in our lifetime. :( Its a sad, sad situation, and I pray for all those who are suffering for no crime of their own.

[Giselle]

]Why? Because the Jews think they're the chosen people, and that's the land God chose for them? Maybe its because of their crimes against humanity that God took the land away from them and gave it to another nation.
Hmm, that's a vengeful God that I'd rather not subscribe to. To each his/her own. *shrugs*

Interesting info and perspectives. It's rather difficult maintaining objectivity in this situation, isn't it? Hmm, I will be perusing the aforementioned links in the meantime.

[RICHARD]

I think that the people who do the suicide bombings and shoot off rockets and mortars are to blame.

The way I see it, the first set of idiots who start this a-holery should not complain about getting the same back.

The Palis have had chance after chance to sit down and broker a peace deal-The other Arab nations in the surrounding areas use the Palis to war with the Israelis, then claim to be a brotherhood.

I had to laugh at the Iranian youth groups that claimed to have signed up 10,000 volunteers to go to Israel and blow themselves up.


Stay at home and play with explosives there.

[KYS]

[QUOTE by popcornbird:. Why? Because the Jews think they're the chosen people, and that's the land God chose for them? Maybe its because of their crimes against humanity that God took the land away from them and gave it to another nation. >>>>>>>>>>>

I will pray for you popcornbird. Such hate.

1:The Palestinian refugee problem has remained unsolved for approximately 60 years, causing suffering and instability throughout the Middle East.
The Arabs' rejection in 1947 of UN General Assembly Resolution 181 - which would have partitioned the British Mandate area into an Arab state and a Jewish state - and the ensuing war they started in the hope of destroying Israel. Many Palestinian Arabs who lived in areas where the fighting took place abandoned their homes, either at the request of Arab leaders, or due to fear of the fighting and the uncertainty of living under Jewish rule. A refugee problem would never have been created had this war not been forced upon Israel by the Arab countries and the local Palestinian leadership.
Sadly, during this period there were innumerable refugees fleeing wars and conflict in many parts of the world. Almost all of these were resettled and their lives rehabilitated. The sole exception remains the Palestinians, deliberately kept as refugees for political aims.

The fate of the Palestinian refugees stands in sharp contrast to that of the many Jews who were forced to flee Arab countries in the wake of the establishment of Israel, leaving behind a great deal of property. Despite the difficulties, the hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees were absorbed as citizens of the State of Israel.

The Arab countries, with the sole exception of Jordan, have perpetuated the refugee problem. The refugees continue to live in crowded camps, in poverty and despair. Few attempts have been made to integrate them into the numerous Arab countries in the region. These refugees, their children, grandchildren and great-grandchildren remain today in a number of Arab countries with no political, economic or social rights.

It's a very complicated and sad situation for everyone. I pray daily that
we will have a world of peace that respect everyone's faith and nationality.

2: Humanitarian aid, Here is a story did not make the front page news:
and I hope aid is now getting through:

December 31 2008:
Israel with the humanitarian effort in coordination with the international organizations, Palestinian Authority and various donors. Ninety three trucks, with approximately 2500 tons of humanitarian aid, medical supplies and medication were conveyed through Kerem Shalom cargo terminal. The World Food Programme has informed Israel that they will not be resuming shipment of food commodities in to Gaza due to the fact that their warehouses are at full capacity and will last for approximately two weeks.

Since the beginning of operation "Cast Lead" some 6500 tons of aid have been transferred at the request of the international organizations, the Palestinian Authority and various governments. Preparations are underway to facilitate further shipments expected to arrive in the coming days.

[cassiesmom]

Hamas keeps launching rockets into Israeli territory, using civilian areas of Gaza as launch sites, and by doing so endangers both the civilians in Gaza and the people they're launching them at.



Why, though? Why is Hamas launching rockets into Israel? What are they hoping to gain by rocketing Israel?

Why is the Middle East so troubled by conflicts? I was watching a story on PBS Frontline yesterday about Iraq and Afghanistan. Is it because the cultures are so old, you know, long-standing conflicts over generations and centuries? Will the Middle East ever be a peaceful part of the world? Is world peace a reasonable goal anymore?

[RICHARD]

Why, though? Why is Hamas launching rockets into Israel? What are they hoping to gain by rocketing Israel?

Why is the Middle East so troubled by conflicts? I was watching a story on PBS Frontline yesterday about Iraq and Afghanistan. Is it because the cultures are so old, you know, long-standing conflicts over generations and centuries? Will the Middle East ever be a peaceful part of the world? Is world peace a reasonable goal anymore?


The terrorists want to provoke Israel into a "war" and grab the support of the Arab nations that have, for the last umpteen years, turned their backs on the Pali problem.

Like the child that needs the attention and support of the family that knows they are the loose cannons of the brood.

The anarchists (Hamas and the other groups) feel that this is the only way to get any recognition for their plight.

They have to realize that they need to 'behave' before they are taken seriously.:(

[Giselle]

Despite some rather difficult words exchanged here, I really do appreciate the information from everybody. Thank you, KYS; I gained a lot of information from your answer, and I encourage anybody to share their knowledge - but I would like to keep this as objective as possible. :)

[jennielynn1970]

The terrorists want to provoke Israel into a "war" and grab the support of the Arab nations that have, for the last umpteen years, turned their backs on the Pali problem.

So you're saying that the "terrorists" are the Palestinians, and not the Israelis? (Wouldn't you agree that there are terrorists on both parts? Anyone who is radical and going out and harming the innocents, to me, is a terrorist.)

Who is on who's land?

Who's land was taken from them?

Who are now refugees in their own land?

And you wonder why they are pissed off???

Reminds me of the American Indians and how we moved them into their own little "refugee camps" that we like to call RESERVATIONS.

[caseysmom]

So you're saying that the "terrorists" are the Palestinians, and not the Israelis? (Wouldn't you agree that there are terrorists on both parts? Anyone who is radical and going out and harming the innocents, to me, is a terrorist.)

Who is on who's land?

Who's land was taken from them?

Who are now refugees in their own land?

And you wonder why they are pissed off???

Reminds me of the American Indians and how we moved them into their own little "refugee camps" that we like to call RESERVATIONS.

Maybe the Israeli's will let the Palestenians have Casino's.... That will even everything out!

[Twisterdog]

Almost of the strife you hear of now goes back to when the Jews were "given" the country of Palestine by after WWII. This is land they say they were promised in the Bible/Torah. However, there were people already living in that area, all over that area, and that area was called Palestine.

Instead of finding an area where they wouldn't be moving people out of their homes, it was decided to take all of the Palestinians and move them into a designated area, put them in refugee camps and basically remove all of their human rights. Much like what the Nazis did to the Jews.

Maybe it's just me, but how does what the Jews went through give them the right to do the same thing to another people?? I never understood that. It may have said in the Bible/Torah that you were supposed to be promised a certain land, but if someone else is already there, technically it's already taken, you can't just move them. At least I don't think you should be able to.

Why make others suffer because they had suffered??

I agree completely.

[RICHARD]

Reminds me of the American Indians and how we moved them into their own little "refugee camps" that we like to call RESERVATIONS.


Or just like the stupid Mexicans who claim that the southwest still belongs to Mexico?

I grew up in the time where the Brown Panthers and all the dumb hispanic/latino groups were selling their "take back California" BS on campuses and in the community.

You can't change history, only the future, the poor, uneducated folks in the refugee camps aren't to blame-It's the educated FAHs who keep the masses stupid, poor and down that are to blame.


I haven't heard of a man or woman trying to keep 3.4.5 kids fed and out of trouble launching rockets or blowing themselves up for something that happened 60 years ago.

That is the prob in the ME, Too many AHs that want to rewrite history.

Get on with your bad selves and try to make the future for the kids a better place.

Instead they start a fight that ends with a Falcon or Cobra shoving a missile into a mosque, school or hospital where the Hamas have hidden out.

What a bunch of gutless bees turds!

[Pam]

Because the Jews think they're the chosen people, and that's the land God chose for them?

Pick up a Bible and look in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 7:6) you will see these words:"For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession."

God chose this people to bring forth his Son, through Mary and out of the lineage of David so that we, who are Christians, share a part in the history of this people.

This conflict has been going on longer than what is suggested in previous posts. It all started when Abraham and Sarah did not wait for "the promise" who was to be Isaac. Instead they enlisted the "aid" of Sarah's hand maiden, Hagar, to help Abraham conceive a child. They named this son Ishmael and he was the ancestor of the northern Arab people.

[caseysmom]

Pick up a Bible and look in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 7:6) you will see these words:"For you are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession."

God chose this people to bring forth his Son, through Mary and out of the lineage of David so that we, who are Christians, share a part in the history of this people.

This conflict has been going on longer than what is suggested in previous posts. It all started when Abraham and Sarah did not wait for "the promise" who was to be Isaac. Instead they enlisted the "aid" of Sarah's hand maiden, Hagar, to help Abraham conceive a child. They named this son Ishmael and he was the ancestor of the northern Arab people.

I doubt the Palestinians believe in the Bible, this will not help them feel much better I am guessing.

No offense to anyone but this is why I can't stand religion.

[jennielynn1970]

The Muslims, in general, believe in the three books. The Torah, the Bible, and the Qur'an. They are all holy books. They are all about God. If you read a translation of the Qur'an, you will see that it's a lot of the same "stories" as are in the Bible as well. I have a copy of the Qur'an in translation (although it's not considered the Qur'an because it is in translation), and I have read parts of it.

Yes, many things are different. Jesus was considered a prophet, not the son of God. That's considered blasphemy to them. God is perfect. The rest of us, are not.

[Twisterdog]

I doubt the Palestinians believe in the Bible, this will not help them feel much better I am guessing.

No offense to anyone but this is why I can't stand religion.

I agree. Organized religion in and of itself is the root of this problem, and a good portion of all conflicts since the dawn of time.

Christians quote the Bible, and use it for justification for anything they want to do. Muslims quote the Qur'an for the same reasons, ditto the Jews and the Torah. It's all absurd, IMO. NO religion is the "right" religion, and no people are the "chosen ones" above all others. I think "God" probably is completely disgusted by all the cruel, evil, close-minded, petty things that have been done "in His name" over the years.

If you are a Christian, I will say with 99.99% certainty that you are a Christian not because you researched all the world's religions and chose the one you personally believe in ... but because your parents were Christian. And your parents were Christian because their parents were, etc. Christians are Christians, Jews are Jews, Muslims are Muslims, Hindus are Hindus, etc. not because of an informed, spiritual choice ... but because of an accident of birth. If one of you American Christians had happened to be born in Pakistan instead of Ohio ... I assure you that you would be Muslim today, and think that Islam was the "right" religion and Christianity was the "wrong" religion. A geographic roll of the dice made people the religion they are, not being "chosen".

To me, there is nothing more hyprocritical than killing another human being in the name of your "loving God" ... any "God", whatever your religion dictates that you call him. And EVERY major religion does it.

I saw a bumper sticker once that said, "My invisible god can beat up your invisible god." Touche.

[DJFyrewolf36]

I will step in and say not all people who are spiritual are religious. I am a Christian, and not afraid to say so. However, do I think the rest of the world is wrong for believing what they do? Nope! I have my own beliefs and anyone who wishes to know what they are need only ask. I won't judge them for believing in what they do, if everyone believed the same thing as I did the world would get boring pretty quick.

From the beginning of time, no matter what you believe...ever since there was two humans, they have found SOMETHING to argue about. I wonder what the very first arguement was about...lol :D

[RICHARD]

I wonder what the very first arguement was about...lol :D

Snakes and apples-MAN was right!:D;)

[ChrisH]

Yes, the war in Gaza is terrible. But the alternative was worse - for all of us (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1105228/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-Yes-war-Gaza-terrible-But-alternative-worse--us.html)

[popcornbird]

For those of you who wonder, "Why does Hamas keep firing rockets at Israel?"...

This is why:

You be surprised to know how many Palestinians have had their family members killed at the hands of Israel. Here at Pet Talk, we all know how devastated we get at the loss of our pets. We're human beings, and if losing one we love doesn't hurt us, then something is wrong with us. To have feelings of pain, grief at the loss of a beloved pet is very natural.

Now imagine how you would feel if your beloved pet were killed by someone. Along with the pain, grief, and sorrow, there would be deep anger embedded in your heart.

Now, imagine how you'd feel if you lost your beloved spouse. There could be no greater loss for most people.

Imagine how the feelings would get even worse if your spouse were killed by another person.

Let's take the feelings you have now, and multiply it by 5, because you did not only lose your spouse. You lost your spouse, your mother, your father, your brother, and your sister. All of them were killed at the hands of the Israelis.

Not only that. You yourself were born in a refugee camp, and for the 30 years of your life, you have never had a home. You've lived a life of pain and terror, and you can only see one cause of your suffering.

Israel.

That's it.

And now, the newest calamity has taken your child from you. That beautiful innocent child that you gave birth to, with those glowing eyes and bright smile is gone...so early, so young. Gone, after dying a terrible, painful death. Again, at the hands of Israel.

And now that you've lost everyone you ever loved, don't have a home, don't see any future ahead of you, you think, "I cannot stand this any longer. The pain is growing day by day, getting worse and worse, with no end in sight. I might as well take some revenge on the one who brought all this pain upon me."

So the revenge goes towards Israel. In the process, 3 or 4 Israelis are killed. Israel responds by killing 500. Israel ends up with more people hating Israel with passion, as they see the blood dripping from the bodies of their dead children. The cycle goes on. 500 killed means at least 2000 new enemies. They all believe Israel is a terrorist state, and rightfully so.

How would you feel if YOU were in their shoes? I personally am not sure about how much I could handle. Just the thought of losing one family member is enough for me to lose it. I can't imagine living the life they live. May God help them.

I think this picture should be enough to make any normal human being's blood boil with anger towards Israel.

http://www.monde-magouilles.com/photos_guerre/gaza3.jpg

What's happening there is truly disgusting. I have Palestinian friends here who are terrified, because they have family in Gaza that they haven't heard from. They don't know if they are alive or dead. I cannot see how anyone in the right mind could support Israel.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

If you are a Christian, I will say with 99.99% certainty that you are a Christian not because you researched all the world's religions and chose the one you personally believe in ... but because your parents were Christian. And your parents were Christian because their parents were, etc. Christians are Christians, Jews are Jews, Muslims are Muslims, Hindus are Hindus, etc. not because of an informed, spiritual choice ... but because of an accident of birth. If one of you American Christians had happened to be born in Pakistan instead of Ohio ... I assure you that you would be Muslim today, and think that Islam was the "right" religion and Christianity was the "wrong" religion. A geographic roll of the dice made people the religion they are, not being "chosen".


You lose on this one!!! I was raised in a family that never went to church. We never event talked about god. I became a Christian because after reading the Bible cover to cover several times I came to love Jesus very much. After 9/11, I went on a serious search. I realized I did believe in God, a loving one at that. I also realized I couldn't accept a religion for myself that Jesus wasn't part of. What other chose to believe it up to them. What I believe is not an "accident of birth".

One thing everyone forgets; just as there is good in the world: there is evil.
When man turned against god in the garden, that gave evil free rein in the earth. That evil includes sickness and death to innocents and well as non-innocents.

Whether you believe in god or not, there is a struggle going on between good and evil. Sadly, evil seems to be winning these days. :(

[Lady's Human]

And I'm sure the Hamas militants who hold women and children in targeted areas as human shields and use residential areas as launch points are nothing but angels, PCB.

Besides, if the Arab states were serious about helping the palestinians they could, but they prefer to leave things as they are rather than offer legitamate aid. How about Iran and Syria maybe offering economic assistance instead of keeping up a supply of weapons and agitprop?

[Randi]

Jenn Librarian and PCB, I've read most of your posts and so agree with your views! :)

[lvpets2002]

:) I as well will agree.. I do understand much better now after reading all the post..
Jenn Librarian and PCB, I've read most of your posts and so agree with your views! :)

[Randi]

Jenn Librarian and PCB, I've read most of your posts and so agree with your views! :)

And I agree with this too!


Organized religion in and of itself is the root of this problem, and a good portion of all conflicts since the dawn of time.

Christians quote the Bible, and use it for justification for anything they want to do. Muslims quote the Qur'an for the same reasons, ditto the Jews and the Torah. It's all absurd, IMO. NO religion is the "right" religion, and no people are the "chosen ones" above all others. I think "God" probably is completely disgusted by all the cruel, evil, close-minded, petty things that have been done "in His name" over the years.

If you are a Christian, I will say with 99.99% certainty that you are a Christian not because you researched all the world's religions and chose the one you personally believe in ... but because your parents were Christian. And your parents were Christian because their parents were, etc. Christians are Christians, Jews are Jews, Muslims are Muslims, Hindus are Hindus, etc. not because of an informed, spiritual choice ... but because of an accident of birth. If one of you American Christians had happened to be born in Pakistan instead of Ohio ... I assure you that you would be Muslim today, and think that Islam was the "right" religion and Christianity was the "wrong" religion. A geographic roll of the dice made people the religion they are, not being "chosen".

To me, there is nothing more hyprocritical than killing another human being in the name of your "loving God"

[caseysmom]

And I'm sure the Hamas militants who hold women and children in targeted areas as human shields and use residential areas as launch points are nothing but angels, PCB.

Besides, if the Arab states were serious about helping the palestinians they could, but they prefer to leave things as they are rather than offer legitamate aid. How about Iran and Syria maybe offering economic assistance instead of keeping up a supply of weapons and agitprop?

Iran is not an Arab state.

I agree that Israel is not innocent in this, I believe hamas is not innocent either, unfortunately a lot of Palenstenians are caught in the middle.

[caseysmom]

You lose on this one!!! I was raised in a family that never went to church. We never event talked about god. I became a Christian because after reading the Bible cover to cover several times I came to love Jesus very much. After 9/11, I went on a serious search. I realized I did believe in God, a loving one at that. I also realized I couldn't accept a religion for myself that Jesus wasn't part of. What other chose to believe it up to them. What I believe is not an "accident of birth".

One thing everyone forgets; just as there is good in the world: there is evil.
When man turned against god in the garden, that gave evil free rein in the earth. That evil includes sickness and death to innocents and well as non-innocents.

Whether you believe in god or not, there is a struggle going on between good and evil. Sadly, evil seems to be winning these days. :(

There are exceptions but really I do believe this is true in most cases. Of course there are missionaries in other countries.

[Lady's Human]

Iran is not an Arab state, however they are a key backer of Hamas through weapons supplies and information warfare support, as is Syria (an Arab state).

I wonder how many photoshopped pics the blogs are going to uncover from this go-round? I suppose the media are going to have to be more careful this time around with the propoganda they choose to purvey.

The Palestinians were thrown out of Jordan for attempting a coup, and if they weren't a useful foil against Israel they would get nowhere near the support they do from the Muslim world.

[smokey the elder]

Hamas, good, bad or indifferent, was elected by the Palestinian Authority. I just wonder what may have happened if, instead of the USA blockading the PA, if we had taken a watchful stance and see if Hamas could *gasp* go legit. If a faction actually needs to GOVERN, maybe they'll change their stance, and maybe they won't.

This is a 5000 year old mess which will probably not get cleaned up in this generation or the next. There was plenty of warlike behavior from all parties from the Old Testament on; Babylon stomped on Judea; Judea stomped Jericho, and on and on.

[Lady's Human]

STE, I would never say that the Israelis have clean hands in all this mess, BUT......

The Palestinians elected Hamas to rule, and Hamas has done nothing more than escalate the violence in the region. Hamas has signed cease fires and broken them repeatedly, and continues launching rockets into Israel.

Egypt was trying to broker a new cease fire agreement when Hamas launched the latest round of attacks. They brought this on themselves.

[RICHARD]

I love the arguement that Hamas has the 'right' to shoot off rockets into Israel.


Let's put it into modern day ideals.

You buy a house in a neighborhood.
The house was taken over by the bank for one reason or another-that reason may not be right, but the previous owners were evicted.
The people who live in that house before come back and start to break windows with rocks.

When you toss rocks back to defend yourself you hit some of the hooligans that are causing the problems...

WHo is right?

The effing Hamas and all the people who support them and their murderous little pranks are wrong. I also love the idea of taking young men and women and convincing them to strap a bomb on and blow up a bus, car, school or checkpoint to make a point!

The Palis do deserve a safe and harmonious place to live, but they elected a bunch of moron, evil bees turds to run their 'government'.


They want peace, they should come to the table with their hands empty, as opposed to throwing rocks before they walk into the door, they crying to the world community that they are being treated cruelly.

Sometimes you have to eat a little poop before anyone believes what you have to say.....and I haven't seen it.:rolleyes:

[caseysmom]

The palestenians are caught in the middle, hamas gets funded from countries that want to take down israel. The hamas uses that money and feeds the palestenians and put schools up, the palestenians elect the hamas cuz that is where they get there food and how they survive.

[Randi]

Let's not forget that the Palestianians were there first, and had lived there for a long time. Palestine was divided up... I think, after the 6 days war in 1967, but Israel still wanted more! At the time they had even been given more than 50 %. Where was the Palestinians supposed to go?

[Lady's Human]

The Palestinians were given part of Jordan as part of the settlement after WW2. They tried to overthrow the government, Jordan tossed them.

Israel wanted more? No, Israel was attacked by multiple countries, and expanded their borders to defensible positions in response.

If it was just about territory, Israel could have easily held onto the Sinai.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Let's not forget that the Palestianians were there first, and had lived there for a long time. Palestine was divided up... I think, after the 6 days war in 1967, but Israel still wanted more! At the time they had even been given more than 50 %. Where was the Palestinians supposed to go?

Really Israel was there first. They were thrown out by the Romans in 70 AD. There are still ruins from their original buildings there just being found by archelogists.

[jennielynn1970]

Let's put it into modern day ideals.

You buy a house in a neighborhood.
The house was taken over by the bank for one reason or another-that reason may not be right, but the previous owners were evicted.
The people who live in that house before come back and start to break windows with rocks.

When you toss rocks back to defend yourself you hit some of the hooligans that are causing the problems...



First of all, that's way too simplistic, secondly, it's wrong.

They didn't get "evicted" because they owed rent or back taxes, they were thrown out of their homes FOR NO REASON other than to have it given to the Israelis.

And calling them rock throwers, that's just a low blow, Richard.

I don't care who's book said what, or who wrote it (face it, it's a translation of one person's writing by another person... all books are), you don't throw someone out of their home to give another people housing. You build new, you find somewhere else. You don't block off where they live, put them in a refugee camp and then complain when they rise up against what was done to them.

Of course they're pissed off. I think any of us in that position would be. I don't care what religion is brought in, who says what higher power says they're right, it's a bunch of crap.

[jennielynn1970]

Really Israel was there first. They were thrown out by the Romans in 70 AD. There are still ruins from their original buildings there just being found by archelogists.

People were there, not "Israelis".

People.

Israel did NOT exist before WWII.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Really Israel was there first. They were thrown out by the Romans in 70 AD. There are still ruins from their original buildings there just being found by archelogists.

A slippery slope if you start relying on boundaries in 70 AD! Let's see...North America was inhabited by....

[jennielynn1970]

The Palestinians were given part of Jordan as part of the settlement after WW2. They tried to overthrow the government, Jordan tossed them.

Israel wanted more? No, Israel was attacked by multiple countries, and expanded their borders to defensible positions in response.

If it was just about territory, Israel could have easily held onto the Sinai.

Israel wants to control everything. Their flag says it all. The blue lines represent rivers. The star represents the people in between. They want to control what lies between the rivers, and that's a lot of land. From the Nile to the Euphrates, all the land in between is supposed to be an Israeli land.

Israel DOES indeed want more land. It wants to control whatever it can.

Israel, in my opinion, should not exist. It should be Palestine. I wish everyone could live peacefully under that name, whether they be Jewish or Muslim. I just don't see it happening.

Unfortunately, all the US does is back Israel. We do whatever they tell us to do (the government). We're just a puppet state for them, really. Heaven forbid we actually say we think that Palestinians have a right to want their land back, or that Fatah and Hammas are fighting for their rights and their land.

Both Israel and Hammas are armed. You can't say that one is wrong and the other is not. They both are fighting, and they both are killing, and the innocent are stuck in the middle. The whole situation just sucks.

[blue]

A slippery slope if you start relying on boundaries in 70 AD! Let's see...North America was inhabited by....

Nobody.

[cassiesmom]

Why is the Middle East so troubled by conflicts? Will the Middle East ever be a peaceful part of the world?

Doesn't seem so, if you ask me.

[Grace]

Originally Posted by momoffuzzyfaces.
Really Israel was there first. They were thrown out by the Romans in 70 AD. There are still ruins from their original buildings there just being found by archelogists.


People were there, not "Israelis".

People.
Israel did NOT exist before WWII.


Jews were there, along with Palestinians. Jews have been in that area for centuries. Israel is the very embodiment of Jewish continuity: It is the only nation on earth that inhabits the same land, bears the same name, speaks the same language, and worships the same God that it did 3,000 years ago. You dig the soil and you find pottery from Davidic times, coins from Bar Kokhba, and 2,000-year-old scrolls.
The name Israel derives from the name given to Jacob. The name Jew derives from Yehuda (Judah) one of the 12 sons of Jacob (Reuben, Shimon, Levi, Yehuda, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Yisachar, Zevulun, Yosef, Binyamin). So, the names Israel, Israeli or Jewish refer to people of the same origin.

The people of modern day Israel share the same language and culture shaped by the Jewish heritage and religion passed through generations starting with the founding father Abraham (ca. 1800 BCE). Thus, Jews have had continuous presence in the land of Israel for the past 3,300 years.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Nobody.

Really?


About 14,000 years ago, humans crossed the Bering land bridge from Siberia to North America, most experts agree.

http://www.livescience.com/history/050525_america_settlers.html#comments

[blue]

Israel wants to control everything. Their flag says it all. The blue lines represent rivers. The star represents the people in between. They want to control what lies between the rivers, and that's a lot of land. From the Nile to the Euphrates, all the land in between is supposed to be an Israeli land.

Then why, time after time, does Israel offer and abide by cease fires with the Palistinians? Why are some Palistinians citizens of Isreal, with freedom of travel in Israels borders?


Israel DOES indeed want more land. It wants to control whatever it can.

Your proof is.....? And second hand stories from your ex does not qualify as proof.


Israel, in my opinion, should not exist. It should be Palestine. I wish everyone could live peacefully under that name, whether they be Jewish or Muslim. I just don't see it happening.

I believe to be historicly/biblicly correct it should be Philistine. The Jews have made many attemps to make peace with the Palistinians only to be shot in the face and have their children blown up.


Unfortunately, all the US does is back Israel. We do whatever they tell us to do (the government). We're just a puppet state for them, really. Heaven forbid we actually say we think that Palestinians have a right to want their land back, or that Fatah and Hammas are fighting for their rights and their land.

Heaven forbid, should we publicly back people and groups attacking civilians and children in the name of getting their land back? Should we publicly back groups that attack innocents and then use their own innocents as shields?


Both Israel and Hammas are armed. You can't say that one is wrong and the other is not. They both are fighting, and they both are killing, and the innocent are stuck in the middle. The whole situation just sucks.

Yes it sucks, but why cant I say it is wrong to use civilians as a shield and a tool for death and destruction? Why cant I say its wrong to agree to a cease fire and then launch rockets into civilian centers or sending out suicide/homicide bombers?

[RICHARD]

And calling them rock throwers, that's just a low blow, Richard.




Please don't read the posts.


Secondly, I never called the Palis rock tossers. I may have used that term in my example bit didn't call them RCs, per se.


And what about all the young kids that are seen in the effing new reels throwing rocks at the IDF tanks and vehicles?


That has always been a HAMAS line of effing BS......"We don't have the tech that the evil Israelis have-supplied by the U.S.- so we HAVE to throw rocks, toss rockets and send out kids out with bombs on their bodies.


And to make it fair, Israel has always tainted the bread they sent to the camps with body parts.:rolleyes:

[jennielynn1970]

Did I say I was "quoting" my ex?? Did I mention him in the last how many posts?? No. I'm just saying what I think from what I've read.

Both parties use innocents. Both parties have killed innocents. I just don't see how it's going to have any kind of ending. Or anything peaceable.

[jennielynn1970]

Secondly, I never called the Palis rock tossers. I may have used that term in my example bit didn't call them RCs, per se.


I just think you could have used a different example other than rocks.

[RICHARD]

I just think you could have used a different example other than rocks.

Suicide bomber?
Indiscriminate murderers?
Fanatics?
Mortar lobbers?

I brought this up in a thread a while ago.

When people call some illegal aliens 'wetbacks' or some other perjorative term, I cannot take offense. It's the way many of MY people ended up here.

To allude to a certain faction of people who DO THROW ROCKS at armed soldiers as rock throwers is neither a low blow or anything else.

I calls them as I sees them.


I could call them a band of idiots for trying to engage armed troops with stones, But that just takes away the ideal that they are innocent of any wrong doing.


And what is your reaction to the Hamas AHs in the news conference and the 'graveyard' comment?


Lovely, they want the world to rally behind them and they make no bones about threatening death to the Israelis.

Let me make myself clear. I don't like either side being stupid, war or killing.
I do have a limit as the the stupidity and 'poor me' line of crap that comes out of the area.

I don't lump all the Palis in with the Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah effups. Their is a line, and it's too bad that people have to make it more difficult for everyone involved.

The Hamas and the other morons are doing the talking and wrecking the chance of anyone living in peace in the area.

----------------

Can you please tell me who the people are that I see on the tube throwing stones at the IDF vehicles?

[blue]

Did I say I was "quoting" my ex?? Did I mention him in the last how many posts?? No. I'm just saying what I think from what I've read.

Both parties use innocents. Both parties have killed innocents. I just don't see how it's going to have any kind of ending. Or anything peaceable.

You seem to place great importance on your ex's opinion. I never said you where quoting your ex, only that you where relating stories from him secondhand. And you have ducked the question of proof for your statement of


Israel DOES indeed want more land. It wants to control whatever it can.

*Major Edit!!!*

How does Israel use their innocents against Hammas and the Palistinian terrorists?

[blue]

A slippery slope if you start relying on boundaries in 70 AD! Let's see...North America was inhabited by....


Really?



http://www.livescience.com/history/050525_america_settlers.html#comments

OMG!!! You actually back up somthing you stated with some facts!!!

I will concede the point to you.

So should we give the continent back to the original settlers of the continent and move back to where ever the heck we came from?

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Nobody.

My Native American kinfolk and I beg to differ with you on this! ;)

QUOTE: So should we give the continent back to the original settlers of the continent and move back to where ever the heck we came from?
__________________
Ok, but tell me which country those of us with mixed heritages should go back to? Besides, I did come from this country!

[Edwina's Secretary]

My Native American kinfolk and I beg to differ with you on this! ;)

QUOTE: So should we give the continent back to the original settlers of the continent and move back to where ever the heck we came from?
__________________
Ok, but tell me which country those of us with mixed heritages should go back to? Besides, I did come from this country!

That is exactly my point MOFF...


Originally Posted by momoffuzzyfaces
Really Israel was there first. They were thrown out by the Romans in 70 AD. There are still ruins from their original buildings there just being found by archelogists.]

If we start trying to establish borders in 2009 based on who lived where once upon a time...we are on a slippery slope.

Whose ancestors lived somewhere thousands of years ago just doesn't seem to me to be a good way to sort things out...without a whole bunch of people being displaced!

[momoffuzzyfaces]

That is exactly my point MOFF...



If we start trying to establish borders in 2009 based on who lived where once upon a time...we are on a slippery slope.

Whose ancestors lived somewhere thousands of years ago just doesn't seem to me to be a good way to sort things out...without a whole bunch of people being displaced!

I agree but that's exactly part of the problem. All three of the largest religions: Judiasim, Christianity and Muslims feel they own the land because of their ancestors and religions. People over there live their religion. To them it's not a pile of "crap" like some have stated here. They are willing to die for their beliefs and not as tolerant of other beliefs as we are here.

[jennielynn1970]

You seem to place great importance on your ex's opinion. I never said you where quoting your ex, only that you where relating stories from him secondhand. And you have ducked the question of proof for your statement of



I place great importance on what he's told me, as well as the different sites I've read over the years about the situation. If he's experience things first hand, since he IS a Palestinian refugee, why shouldn't I place great importance upon what he has told me in regards to that?? I've heard about his relatives being killed, I've heard about his brother and father living on the boats, unable to dock at any country during the conflict in Kuwait.

Did I say that I back all the crazy things that the Islamic radical fundamentalists do? No. I don't back anything that is so crazy and creates more chaos. What I was saying was that, I understand how they can be so upset and pissed off that they are displaced. They were driven out of their land, like the Native Americans were (which I'm related to, through my grandpa, he was Delaware Indian).

I still think that the land belongs to the Palestinians and others who lived there before they created Israel after WWII. That's my belief, and I've believed that even before I met my ex (back in 2003). He and I didn't agree on many things, but we bonded on that one.

[popcornbird]

I recieved this in an email yesterday. Feel free to read...


Top 5 Lies about Israel's Assault on Gaza
Jeremy R. Hammond

Jan 3, 2009

Lie #1) Israel is only targeting legitimate military sites and is seeking to protect innocent lives. Israel never targets civilians.

The Gaza Strip is one of the most densely populated pieces of property in the world. The presence of militants within a civilian population does not, under international law, deprive that population of their protected status, and hence any assault upon that population under the guise of targeting militants is, in fact, a war crime.

Moreover, the people Israel claims are legitimate targets are members of Hamas, which Israel says is a terrorist organization. Hamas has been responsible for firing rockets into Israel. These rockets are extremely inaccurate and thus, even if Hamas intended to hit military targets within Israel, are indiscriminate by nature. When rockets from Gaza kill Israeli civilians, it is a war crime.

Hamas has a military wing. However, it is not entirely a military organization, but a political one. Members of Hamas are the democratically elected representatives of the Palestinian people. Dozens of these elected leaders have been kidnapped and held in Israeli prisons without charge. Others have been targeted for assassination, such as Nizar Rayan, a top Hamas official. To kill Rayan, Israel targeted a residential apartment building. The strike not only killed Rayan but two of his wives and four of his children, along with six others. There is no justification for such an attack under international law. This was a war crime.

Other of Israelʼs bombardment with protected status under international law have included a mosque, a prison, police stations, and a university, in addition to residential buildings.

Moreover, Israel has long held Gaza under siege, allowing only the most minimal amounts of humanitarian supplies to enter. Israel is bombing and killing Palestinian civilians. Countless more have been wounded, and cannot receive medical attention. Hospitals running on generators have little or no fuel. Doctors have no proper equipment or medical supplies to treat the injured. These people, too, are the victims of Israeli policies targeted not at Hamas or legitimate military targets, but directly designed to punish the civilian population.



Lie #2) Hamas violated the cease-fire. The Israeli bombardment is a response to Palestinian rocket fire and is designed to end such rocket attacks.

Israel never observed the cease-fire to begin with. From the beginning, it announced a "special security zone" within the Gaza Strip and announced that Palestinians who enter this zone will be fired upon. In other words, Israel announced its intention that Israeli soldiers would shoot at farmers and other individuals attempting to reach their own land in direct violation of not only the cease-fire but international law.

Despite shooting incidents, including ones resulting in Palestinians getting injured, Hamas still held to the cease-fire from the time it went into effect on June 19 until Israel effectively ended the truce on November 4 by launching an airstrike into Gaza that killed five and injured several others.

Israelʼs violation of the cease-fire predictably resulted in retaliation from militants in Gaza who fired rockets into Israel in response. The increased barrage of rocket fire at the end of December is being used as justification for the continued Israeli bombardment, but is a direct response to the Israeli attacks.

Israel's actions, including its violation of the cease-fire, predictably resulted in an escalation of rocket attacks against its own population.



Lie #3) Hamas is using human shields, a war crime.

There has been no evidence that Hamas has used human shields. The fact is, as previously noted, Gaza is a small piece of property that is densely populated. Israel engages in indiscriminate warfare such as the assassination of Nizar Rayan, in which members of his family were also murdered. It is victims like his dead children that Israel defines as "human shields" in its propaganda. There is no legitimacy for this interpretation under international law. In circumstances such as these, Hamas is not using human shields, Israel is committing war crimes in violation of the Geneva Conventions and other applicable international law.



Lie #4) Arab nations have not condemned Israelʼs actions because they understand Israelʼs justification for its assault.

The populations of those Arab countries are outraged at Israelʼs actions and at their own governments for not condemning Israelʼs assault and acting to end the violence. Simply stated, the Arab governments do not represent their respective Arab populations. The populations of the Arab nations have staged mass protests in opposition to not only Israel's actions but also the inaction of their own governments and what they view as either complacency or complicity in Israel's crimes.

Moreover, the refusal of Arab nations to take action to come to the aid of the Palestinians is not because they agree with Israelʼs actions, but because they are submissive to the will of the US, which fully supports Israel. Egypt, for instance, which refused to open the border to allow Palestinians wounded in the attacks to get medical treatment in Egyptian hospitals, is heavily dependent upon US aid, and is being widely criticized within the population of the Arab countries for what is viewed as an absolute betrayal of the Gaza Palestinians.

Even Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas has been regarded as a traitor to his own people for blaming Hamas for the suffering of the people of Gaza. Palestinians are also well aware of Abbas' past perceived betrayals in conniving with Israel and the US to sideline the democratically elected Hamas government, culminating in a counter-coup by Hamas in which it expelled Fatah (the military wing of Abbas' Palestine Authority) from the Gaza Strip. While his apparent goal was to weaken Hamas and strengthen his own position, the Palestinians and other Arabs in the Middle East are so outraged at Abbas that it is unlikely he will be able to govern effectively.



Lie #5) Israel is not responsible for civilian deaths because it warned the Palestinians of Gaza to flee areas that might be targeted.

Israel claims it sent radio and telephone text messages to residents of Gaza warning them to flee from the coming bombardment. But the people of Gaza have nowhere to flee to. They are trapped within the Gaza Strip. It is by Israeli design that they cannot escape across the border. It is by Israeli design that they have no food, water, or fuel by which to survive. It is by Israeli design that hospitals in Gaza have no electricity and few medical supplies with which to treat the injured and save lives. And Israel has bombed vast areas of Gaza, targeting civilian infrastructure and other sites with protected status under international law. No place is safe within the Gaza Strip.

-Jeremy R. Hammond is the editor of Foreign Policy Journal (www.foreignpolicyjournal.com), a website dedicated to providing news, critical analysis, and opinion commentary on U.S. foreign policy from outside of the standard framework offered by government officials and the mainstream corporate media, particularly with regard to the "war on terrorism" and events in the Middle East. He has also written for numerous other online publications.
www.foreignpolicyjournal.com

[lizbud]

I have been reading quite a bit on the history of bad feelings between
the two groups involved and still don't understand it all. I did read one
comment that I agree sums up this awful war. Here is the quote.


"While I fully support Isreal's right to defend herself against a constant barage of rockets, it is lamentable than so many innocents are dying. Why does the world sit back and watch the terrorists continual rocket fire and say nothing? Unfortunately Zawahiri and his ilk know that Isreal can't really win in the court of public opinion because his pals use the innocents as sheilds. They goad Isreal into a fight and then hide behind the childrern. When they die, they blame Isreal for the massacre instead of taking responsibility. When will the Palestinian people realize they are being held hostage not by the Isrealies but by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Bin Laden???? God help us all... "

[RICHARD]

Can anyone answer these questions?


Which side sends kids out as homicide bombers?

Which side throws more rocks?

Which side lobs off mortars and rockets, willy nilly?

-------------


LOLOLOL,

AGAIN, shooting off 'inaccurate rockets' is a free pass to act like morons.

That's like dropping stones-NOTICE I SAID STONE DROPPER NOT ROCK THROWER- off a freeway overpass.

You aren't really aiming at vehicles.......;)

This Rayan character should burn in effing hell for involving his wife and kids in a political skirmish. Of course we all will say, "It's criminal that he was taken out with a bomb that happened to kill women and children he was hiding behind."


The 'men' running Hamas are spineless bullies who have no value on the face of the earth. Instead of waging their 'war' against Israel out in the open they hide behind the skirts and diapers of family members, putting them in harm's way.

Scum is way too high on the evolutionary scale to be compared to such dastardly AHs who parade as people looking for justice.


P.S.

Let's explain what the "submissive will of the U.S." REALLY is...

It's whatever munitions will fit on a fighter, flying overhead.

[Giselle]

It's absolutely ludicrous how folks who are so devoutly religious and who preach "love and justice" are so quick to turn the gun and endorse violence.

And I'm not even talking about the Middle East.

[blue]

My Native American kinfolk and I beg to differ with you on this! ;)

QUOTE: So should we give the continent back to the original settlers of the continent and move back to where ever the heck we came from?
__________________
Ok, but tell me which country those of us with mixed heritages should go back to? Besides, I did come from this country!

I conceded the point once and will again to you and your kinfolk.

If someone wants to fund my relocation to Ireland, Im game even though the skiing there isnt near as great.


I place great importance on what he's told me, as well as the different sites I've read over the years about the situation. If he's experience things first hand, since he IS a Palestinian refugee, why shouldn't I place great importance upon what he has told me in regards to that?? I've heard about his relatives being killed, I've heard about his brother and father living on the boats, unable to dock at any country during the conflict in Kuwait.

Im glad you place great importance on your ex has shared with you and what you have shared here, its been a great learning experience even hearing it secondhand. But I was hoping to hear/read your opinions after hearing both sides of the story. Does the official "news" mean more to you or does your ex's experiences of past events have greater importance to your opinion of the situation? Or do you still have contact with your ex, and are up to date on what is not reported in the news. If the later is the case, I would gladly take his accountings secondhand.

If my history is correct Palistinians that lived in what is now Israel where offerred citizenship, most declined and enterred refuge status.


Did I say that I back all the crazy things that the Islamic radical fundamentalists do? No. I don't back anything that is so crazy and creates more chaos. What I was saying was that, I understand how they can be so upset and pissed off that they are displaced. They were driven out of their land, like the Native Americans were (which I'm related to, through my grandpa, he was Delaware Indian).

I didnt say or mean to imply that you backed any of the crazy things islamic radicals do, if you got that impression I retract those statements and appologise.


I still think that the land belongs to the Palestinians and others who lived there before they created Israel after WWII. That's my belief, and I've believed that even before I met my ex (back in 2003). He and I didn't agree on many things, but we bonded on that one.

The Jews and Palistines have coexisted for a long time, centuries, before Israel was a country. Not allways peacefully but they coexisted. The Jews where also there before Israel was created.

The real problem is the PLO and Hammas see the Palistinian people as pawns, they feed and support them only to be use them as tools against Israel. They have hidden behind them while attacking Israel, mayrtering them to further their agendas.

Could you back up your claim that Israel is using their innocents the same way Hammas is?

[Edwina's Secretary]

It's absolutely ludicrous how folks who are so devoutly religious and who preach "love and justice" are so quick to turn the gun and endorse violence.

And I'm not even talking about the Middle East.

Amen! (and I won't even ask you to "back it up!")

[blue]

It's absolutely ludicrous how folks who are so devoutly religious and who preach "love and justice" are so quick to turn the gun and endorse violence.

And I'm not even talking about the Middle East.


Amen! (and I won't even ask you to "back it up!")

I will. Who the heck are you referring too?

[jennielynn1970]

I was wondering that myself. I know I've never passed off myself as devoutly religous, in any way, so just wondering who she's talking about.

I don't think anyone here is "endorsing" violence, but there are some of us who can see why each side is acting the way they do, or feels they way they feel.

No one is endorsing the violence, or saying any kind of radical violence is correct.

[caseysmom]

I would never speak for Sophie, (couldn't be so eloquent even if I tried) but I suspect she is speaking of references of the Bible and the Jews entitlement to the area.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Well, I don't claim to be "devoutly" religious though I do talk to God several times a day. ;) I'm the last one to want to turn guns on anyone. I want all guns banned, (and weapons for that matter) even for armies. Heck! Let countries just throw rocks at each other. :)

[caseysmom]

Well, I don't claim to be "devoutly" religious though I do talk to God several times a day. ;) I'm the last one to want to turn guns on anyone. I want all guns banned, (and weapons for that matter) even for armies. Heck! Let countries just throw rocks at each other. :)

Thats not a bad idea....

[Cinder & Smoke]

Heck! Let countries just throw rocks at each other. :)

I think that's where this *war* thing started ...

The Cave Guys used to toss rocks to hunt ...
Then the knife ...
Then the knife onna pole (aka the Spear)
Developed into the BOW an Arrow ...
How bout an Arrow inna tube = the Blow Gun.
GUN??? What a neet idea! :eek:

Things have been goin downhill from there.

:(

[Edwina's Secretary]

Well, I don't claim to be "devoutly" religious though I do talk to God several times a day. ;) I'm the last one to want to turn guns on anyone. I want all guns banned, (and weapons for that matter) even for armies. Heck! Let countries just throw rocks at each other. :)

A double amen to you MOFF!!

[RICHARD]

Richard's Rule of Life #5.


WHen you act stupidly, be prepared to be treated stupidly.

e.g.?
Launch a rocket at your neighbor's house. Be prepared to be treated the same way.


MOFF!

Don't get on my side by advocating rock throwing. The next thing you know is all the American baseball players will get drafted and play in Israel.:confused:


C&S....

You forgot the first Intercontinental Ballistic Missile.

The Boomerang!:D

[Cinder & Smoke]

You forgot the first Intercontinental Ballistic Missile.

The Boomerang!:D

Yeah, but summa our "better ideas" didn't always work out so good ...

If ya *miss* :eek: wiffa Boomerang ... it turns around and chases YOUR @$$! :(

And then the Castle Dwellers tried the Burning Oil from atop the parapets ...
Often shoo'd away the Bad Guys, till sumbuddy *spilled* a little on the
INside of the walls ... and then the wood & stone house burned down!
:( NUTZ!

Sumtymes NUNbuddy *wins* in war!
Wunna these daze we outta LEARN that!
:rolleyes:

[Edwina's Secretary]

Sumtymes NUNbuddy *wins* in war!
Wunna these daze we outta LEARN that!
:rolleyes:

Sumtymes? Howz bout NUN tymes?

[Cinder & Smoke]

Sumtymes NUNbuddy *wins* in war!
Wunna these daze we outta LEARN that! :rolleyes:




Sumtymes?
Howz bout NUN tymes?

But that's one of the 'lessons' nobody ever seems to learn.
Each side figgers ONE more shot, ONE more battle ... and the 'Other Guy'
is gonna give up and WE *WIN*! :rolleyes:

Wonder if anyone would get hurt flippin coins to settle disputes?
Best outta Three, anyone?

And no *sharp* coins, please!

;)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Paper, scissor, rock perhaps?

[Lady's Human]

I'm all for nerf balls at 10 paces.:p

[Giselle]

Unless you have explicitly said that either side "deserves" what is happening to them or should be targeted, I'm obviously not talking about you. But the statements have been posted here, and it only takes a quick read to see them.

[jennielynn1970]

I don't think any one person said any one side "deserves" what is happening to them. There are certain view points, but that's each person's opinion. I don't think anyone deserves anything bad that has happened when it comes to innocents. If you're radical and you're going to start things, you have to expect things to come back to bite you in the butt. Also, if you start things and blame the other side for whatever, and of course never take responsibility (sorry, but Israel does that all the time... they are never responsible for any of the horrible things they do, it's always someone else's fault).

Still, you want to point fingers and say someone said whatever, just say who or what you mean, instead of saying "read and you'll see". Not saying it is just kinda, well, wimpy. At least then who ever it is can defend whatever it is you think they said.

[Twisterdog]

You lose on this one!!!

Actually, no, I don't.

You may not have grown up in a practicing Christian household, but you grew up in a Christian country. When you decided to start actively practicing a religion, you reached for the Bible, the book of Christians. You didn't go to the library and check out the Qu'an or the Torah and read them cover to cover several times as well, before deciding to start practicing Christianity. I'd bet again, you didn't research the Bahá'í faith, Gnosticism or Jainism.

I'm not saying this in and of itself is wrong. It's human nature. We gravitate towards what we know. If I want to buy a new car, I pick from the choices that I am familar with, that my friends and family own, and are readily available in my area. I choose between a Chevy and a Toyota ... I don't even think about a Tata, a Izmash or a Yulon. It's the same with religion ... when basically non-religious people decide to become religious, they almost always choose the religion of their family, friends or country. Not always, there are exceptions ... that's why I did not say "100%" in my original post. But it's incredibly rare that an American decides to start practicing Kharijite, Sikhism, or iAyyavazhi nstead of Christianity.

[RICHARD]

I'm all for nerf balls at 10 paces.:p


Paper, scissor, rock perhaps?



Tube socks filled with wet toilet paper?:cool::D

[Catty1]

Water balloons!;)

[jennielynn1970]

Tube socks filled with wet toilet paper?:cool::D


Paper, scissor, rock perhaps?

How about we do the Big Bang Theory one... Rock, paper, scissors, shoot, and Spock fingers to see who wins??

[RICHARD]

How about we do the Big Bang Theory one... Rock, paper, scissors, shoot, and Spock fingers to see who wins??

I think we have a winner!:D

[blue]

Ill bring the hammer.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

How about we do the Big Bang Theory one... Rock, paper, scissors, shoot, and Spock fingers to see who wins??

I'm all for televised necked mud wrestling myself!:)

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Actually, no, I don't.

You may not have grown up in a practicing Christian household, but you grew up in a Christian country. When you decided to start actively practicing a religion, you reached for the Bible, the book of Christians. You didn't go to the library and check out the Qu'an or the Torah and read them cover to cover several times as well, before deciding to start practicing Christianity. I'd bet again, you didn't research the Bahá'í faith, Gnosticism or Jainism.

I'm not saying this in and of itself is wrong. It's human nature. We gravitate towards what we know. If I want to buy a new car, I pick from the choices that I am familar with, that my friends and family own, and are readily available in my area. I choose between a Chevy and a Toyota ... I don't even think about a Tata, a Izmash or a Yulon. It's the same with religion ... when basically non-religious people decide to become religious, they almost always choose the religion of their family, friends or country. Not always, there are exceptions ... that's why I did not say "100%" in my original post. But it's incredibly rare that an American decides to start practicing Kharijite, Sikhism, or iAyyavazhi nstead of Christianity.

Well, the Torah is part of the Christian Bible so I did read that one several times. Since I had never ever even heard of the others I couldn't research them. We had no computer Google access in those days. Even the libraries were limited as to what religious books were offered. :love:

[RICHARD]

I stand corrected.

Today I was on the pot and was reading the paper.....

THere was a pic of a yoong Arab man throwing a fire bomb at an Israeli fortress/post.


I called them rock throwers, They are arsonists.:confused::rolleyes:

[Giselle]

Jenn_librarian, I already have quoted and pointed it out as have several others. It's not that obscure :confused:

[blue]

Found this on another board, source and full text here, Link (http://www.imninalu.net/myths-pals.htm).


Palestinians are the newest of all the peoples on the face of the Earth, and began to exist in a single day by a kind of supernatural phenomenon that is unique in the whole history of mankind, as it is witnessed by Walid Shoebat, a former PLO terrorist that acknowledged the lie he was fighting for and the truth he was fighting against:

“Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
“We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag”.
“When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out”.

ETA:

No one (Arab or Jew) has a "right of return". Jews who fled Arab persecution from 1948 to 1956 should have no right of return to Arab lands, and Arabs who ran away in 1948 and 1967 should have no right of return either. This should end all argument. Yet the Jews accept this judgment, while the Arabs reject EVERYTHING. - Walid Shoebat

Sorry, forgot the link (http://www.shoebat.com/).