The 2nd Amendment

[Puckstop31]

Lets have at it. :)

I believe the 2nd Amendment is our FIRST freedom. The 2nd is not about hunting, target shooting or collecting. It is about an individuals right to protect themselves from tyranny. I believe a disarmed populace are subjects, not citizens.

Further, history is proof... The FIRST thing dictators do is disarm the population. Better to control them. Government needs to fear the population, not the population, it.

Disarming a population does nothing to decrease violent crime. Violent crime is a human condition that happens no matter the weapon of choice. Better to allow the law abiding citizen the ability to protect themself, rather than enable the criminal by rendering the citizen defenceless.

Now, there are those who will argue that the 2nd applies ONLY to members of "the milita". This would lead us to a discussion of just what "the milita" is. Look up the word militia. They all include on key term... VOLUNTEER. The National Guard is NOT a militia. They are paid professionals. WE THE PEOPLE are the militia. Myself and other member of my community are the militia.


President-Elect Obama.... I advise you to not go anywere near the extreme policies you propsed on this issue while a member of the Illinois Senate. Less you have the next civil war on your hands. Also never forget that a VAST majority of those who serve in your military understand the true meaning of the oath they take. If you want to try and limit our 2nd Amendment Rights... Try it the proper way. Never forget who really runs this county sir.

[IRescue452]

I don't think he's going to take our guns. People are going way too much over this. So what if he makes a few tougher laws on who can buy guns or about background checks? If you are a lawful citizen you will be fine.

[blue]

Obama has allready said he would support another AWB but more restrictive and without a sunset clause. He has a history for supporting gun and ammo bans. Obama's transition team has even removed not just their plans reguarding firearms but their entire agenda from their website today.

[Puckstop31]

I don't think he's going to take our guns. People are going way too much over this. So what if he makes a few tougher laws on who can buy guns or about background checks? If you are a lawful citizen you will be fine.

And therein lies the problem....

LAWS only effect the LAW ABIDING.

There are THOUSANDS of gun laws on the books. How about we finally get tough on the CRIMINALS? Nooooooo, that is mean.

That line about "if you are a lawful citizen, you have nothing to worry about"... That is the SCARIEST phrase in the English language.

[Puckstop31]

Obama has allready said he would support another AWB but more restrictive and without a sunset clause. He has a history for supporting gun and ammo bans. Obama's transition team has even removed not just their plans reguarding firearms but their entire agenda from their website today.


LOL

Geeee, what a shocker.

Change sure is coming. ;)

[cassiesmom]

Confession time: I had to go look up the text of the second amendment :o

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

My question is this: Where does one person's right to "keep and bear arms" meet up with another's right to go out in public (or just to be in their own home) with the reasonable expectation of not being shot at? There are people in Chicago who are victims of gun violence simply because they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't know about other cities but it's well known that in Chicago, gang members have more powerful weapons than police officers. The proliferation of armed citizens on the streets is a problem.

[Lady's Human]

The proliferation of armed CITIZENS is never a problem.

The proliferation of armed criminals is the problem. There are over 22,000 laws on the books in the United States dealing with the regulation of firearms.
It's not a lack of legal controls....it's the lack of controls on the criminals.

[cassiesmom]

The proliferation of armed CITIZENS is never a problem.

The proliferation of armed criminals is the problem. There are over 22,000 laws on the books in the United States dealing with the regulation of firearms.
It's not a lack of legal controls....it's the lack of controls on the criminals.

LH, thank you for clarifying what I was trying to say. Another sad thing, to me, is that you only hear about the most tragic ones, like Jennifer Hudson's family members. I'm sure there are incidents that never even make the news.

[blue]

"I ask, Sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people. To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."
George Mason
Co-author of the Second Amendment
during Virginia's Convention to Ratify the Constitution, 1788

"A militia, when properly formed, are in fact the people themselves …"
Richard Henry Lee
writing in Letters from the Federal Farmer to the Republic, Letter XVIII, May, 1788.

"And that the said Constitution be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the Press, or the rights of Conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; …"
Samuel Adams
quoted in the Philadelphia Independent Gazetteer, August 20, 1789, "Propositions submitted to the Convention of this State"

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."
George Washington
First President of the United States

"Those who hammer their guns into plowshares will plow for those who do not."
Thomas Jefferson
Third President of the United States

[jennielynn1970]

So, how do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals?

What about the guy who shot those people on Halloween, he was a felon, and he had a gun. How do you stop something like that??

What do you do when the local police are just too apathetic to do anything about this? Or when their numbers keep going down, and the criminal element keeps increasing??

[blue]

So, how do you keep the guns out of the hands of criminals?

What about the guy who shot those people on Halloween, he was a felon, and he had a gun. How do you stop something like that??

What do you do when the local police are just too apathetic to do anything about this? Or when their numbers keep going down, and the criminal element keeps increasing??

Thank you for showwing why disarming legal citizens is a dangerous idea.

If only the government and criminals are armed, unarmed law abiding citizens would have 2 tyrannical masters.

[jennielynn1970]

Thank you for showwing why disarming legal citizens is a dangerous idea.

If only the government and criminals are armed, unarmed law abiding citizens would have 2 tyrannical masters.

That may show why disarming legal citizens is a dangerous idea, but you didn't give any answers.

Have any?? No sarcasm intended. I'm serious about it.

[Karen]

In my opinion, we need not more laws regarding gun control, but more enforcement of the laws we have.

[blue]

1. Reforming the structure of the BATF would be a start.

2. Stricter enforcement of those on parole or probation, starting with more funds for the officers in charge of enforcement as well as more officers.

3. Enforcing the laws allready on the books rather then writing more laws.

4. Firearm safety training in public schools again.

[jennielynn1970]

Can you explain what the acronyms are when you use them (I mean everyone on this post).... cause I have no idea what a AWB or a BATW is.

[Grace]

Can you explain what the acronyms are when you use them (I mean everyone on this post).... cause I have no idea what a AWB or a BATW is.

AWB - Assault Weapons Ban

BATF - Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

[blue]

AWB=Assualt Weapons Ban.

Clinton's 1984 ban didnt actually ban assualt weapons, it banned semi auto weapons that were based on or resembled actual assualt weapons. It also banned certain features from being added to firearms that where cosmetic in nature.

True assault weapons remained legal and taxed the entire time the ban was in place.

BATF=Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

The BATF targets legal gun owners, misrepresents gun laws and interprets the laws on a day by day case by case basis. Linky. (http://www.gunowners.com/batf.htm)

[jennielynn1970]

Cool, thanks!

[Lady's Human]

Blue, you missed the year.....1994.


To elaborate on the AWB, just compare one of Blue's weapons (AK-47 semi-automatic clone) with one of the weapons I used to have:

Blue's AK-47 semi auto clone......pistol grip stock (bad), provisions for mounting a bayonet (bad) Flash supressor (bad) and the possibility of using high capacity magazines (bad)

But, appearances aside, it still fires a relatively low powered cartridge, and is useful from a military standpoint mainly because they can take a beating and still fire. The Soviet military no longer uses the weapon, they've moved on to better weapons.

Compared with a hunting rifle I used to have, a Browning BAR......

No appearance issues, looks like a normal hunting rifle, which it is, and fires a much higher powered cartridge than blue's AK.....blue's AK under the AWB=bad, my hunting rifle is perfectly legal.

Pure legislative feel good BS, accomplished nothing, but looked good to the constituents.

[Catlady711]

I personally have never liked guns, I don't even like to look at them, however I tend to agree with my husband, who is (much to my dismay) a gun collector...

'guns don't kill people....people kill people'

It makes sense, people were killing people long before guns were invented, and would continue to do so, just with different means, even if every gun on the entire planet was melted down.

[blue]

Thanks for the catch on the year LH, now I dont need to edit the post.

All 3 of my SAR1's were bought during the AWB, so none of them have the bayonet lug, or any sort of muzzle attatchment as the barrels arent threaded (yet). My rifles where legislated purely based on appearance.

Legal full auto/3 round burst assualt weapons were unaffected by the ban. Illegal full auto/3 round bust assualt rifles were also unaffected by the ban.

[Lady's Human]

Blue, I will give the AWB this.......it did away with Calico .22's........for the betterment of all.

:p

[blue]

Blue, I will give the AWB this.......it did away with Calico .22's........for the betterment of all.

:p

I allways wanted a Calico.

[Lady's Human]

They're a pleasant plinker when they work.......however the magazines were picky as hell, and misfires, which weren't uncommon, were particularly unpleasant.

[jennielynn1970]

Here's a question for ya.

Say you were a single woman, living alone, in a city that has pretty much crime. What type of handgun would you recommend for personal safety reasons? Assuming that they would also take courses in how to handle a handgun as well.

[Karen]

Here's a question for ya.

Say you were a single woman, living alone, in a city that has pretty much crime. What type of handgun would you recommend for personal safety reasons? Assuming that they would also take courses in how to handle a handgun as well.

Jenn, I wouldn't recommend a handgun for you, with your history of depression and your struggles with your meds. Nothing personal, okay?

I was raised with guns in the house, and my dad always impressed on me that owning a gun without a lot of training can just give you false confidence, and make yourself more likely to get hurt. After all, if someone broke in to your place A) they'd likely trip over one of the cats running to greet them and hurt themselves that way and B) If you say to a criminal "Stop or I'll shoot" which being a decent person might be your first instinct, a criminal will shoot you without giving you the same warning.

Feel free, though to get "NRA member" stickers for your front door or windows, just to give anyone pause who is considering trouble. After all, a cat's meow is NOT the deterrent a large dog's bark would be, no matter how fierce the meow!

[jennielynn1970]

Jenn, I wouldn't recommend a handgun for you, with your history of depression and your struggles with your meds. Nothing personal, okay?


I don't want one, and don't intend on buying one, lol, don't worry!! I was just asking, just curious what someone would "recommend". That's all.

[jennielynn1970]

I have ADT stickers, lol. Not that they will stop someone, but they might give more thought to breaking in than without them. ;)

[Lady's Human]

Any recommendation would be entirely situational. A self-defense weapon is not a one size fits all item. What would work for me wouldn't necessarily work for Blue, or Karen, etc.

[blue]

Jenn, even though it was a hypothetical question you could find a local firing range that gives firearm safety and training courses. The class and training could make you more comfortable being around firearms and people carrying firearms. It would also give you personal experience to pick a firearm you are most comfortable with, without actually owning one.

[blue]

All misdirection aside, I see Pucks point.

Without the Second Amendment our rights mean nothing. Without the 2nd Amendment we have nothing to make sure our rights mean anything. Without the 2nd Amendment we are pawns at best and slaves at worst.

Puck can correct me if I am wrong, but without the 2nd Amendment we would live under a tyrannical government and not a democratic republic.

[Puckstop31]

All misdirection aside, I see Pucks point.

Without the Second Amendment our rights mean nothing. Without the 2nd Amendment we have nothing to make sure our rights mean anything. Without the 2nd Amendment we are pawns at best and slaves at worst.

Puck can correct me if I am wrong, but without the 2nd Amendment we would live under a tyrannical government and not a democratic republic.


Like I said, I believe the 2nd Amendment is our FIRST freedom.

A repeal of the 2nd Amendment does not directly mean we then live under a dictator... But it would remove a MAJOR obstacle to any aspiring dictator.

Now ask me if I think the left will openly try to outright repeal the 2nd Amendment? Not likely. It would be political suicide at best, or lead to a real civil war at worst. No, they re going tp pick at it. They are going to use the courts, like they always do with their really radical stuff, because they know they could never get any of it past the voters. That is the real shame. I reckon that is why the "cost of freedom is eternal vigilence".

Finally, like I have said before, I am not worried. If my country chooses to make me a criminal for owning certain inanimate objects, so be it. There are MILLIONS of people who share my feelings on this particular issue. I would rather die free than live a slave.

[blue]

Here is the archived link for Obama's transistion team agenda that was removed yesterday. Link, (http://74.125.45.104/search?q=cache:lZ5nLB1m2TMJ:www.change.gov/agenda/urbanpolicy/+gun+site:change.gov&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us) scroll down to CRIME AND LAW ENFORCEMENT.

[blue]

Pulled this from another board.


About the time our original thirteen states adopted their new constitution in 1787, Alexander Tyler, a Scottish history professor at the University of Edinburgh , had this to say about the fall of the Athenian Republic some 2,000 years earlier:

'A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government.'

'A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury.'

'From that moment on, the majority always vote for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.'

'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years'

'During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:

1. From bondage to spiritual faith;

2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

3. From courage to liberty;

4. From liberty to abundance;

5. From abundance to complacency;

6. From complacency to apathy;

7. From apathy to dependence;

8. From dependence back into bondage.

[zippy-kat]

Here's a question for ya.

Say you were a single woman, living alone, in a city that has pretty much crime. What type of handgun would you recommend for personal safety reasons? Assuming that they would also take courses in how to handle a handgun as well.

Derringer - petite and "decorative" but there better be only one bad guy and you better be a heckuva shot! ;)

Kidding aside, I have a taurus pistol that my dad bought/gave me after I completed a concealed carry course. (It's black. I'd wanted pink but dad said that would be adding insult to injury. :rolleyes: :D ) I also qualified on my neighbor's revolver but I like the pistol better.

[smokey the elder]

I think (would need to verify) that the first thing the Third Reich did was totally outlaw guns. The Supreme Court did state that the Second Amendment did allow the individual right to bear arms. I think the Assault Weapons Ban is needed, but how enforceable is it? How enforceable are a lot of the firearms laws? For awhile they were talking about biometric triggers (only the gun owner could fire it.) Maybe technnology will help law-abiding folks vs. criminals where the law has failed.

[Lady's Human]

Why is any cosmetic ban needed? All the assault weapons ban did was to ban weapons based on cosmetic appearance, and had no effect on crime whatsoever (besides creating a new class of criminals).

The first time a biometric trigger fails in a self-defense situation will be the last time a manufacturer will put one on, as it opens up a host of liability issues.

[smokey the elder]

I can see how that would be a problem. Say the used a fingerprint. At Universal Studios, they have fingerprint readers for entry into the park and also to rent a locker. Those were tricky; if you didn't have your finger oriented the exact same way it would be invalid. I can see how being nervous when you need your gun to shoot the bad guy might cause it to fail!

[blue]

For those that think it cant happen here, many British and Australian citizens believe that it can.

Dont let This, (http://shock.military.com/Shock/videos.do?displayContent=177117) happen here!

[RICHARD]

Not only biometric, but the 'ring' guns too- like the O'dwyer idea?

I can see some bobo taking off his ring or switching it to the other hand.:D:eek::rolleyes:

--------

The cosmetic thing is a joke too.

I was watching a special on violence and guns when NFL players are involved.
Some idiot gun dealer was showing his wares off to the reporter doing the interview..

He had a huge revolver with a scope mounted on it that was as long as the whole gun. The reporter asked him about the scope - apparently he had some knowledge about firearms and how stupid and useless it was on any handgun - the dealer laughed and told him that it was the gun that the players asked about the most. :confused:

[blue]

The NRA may not be the fairest, most non biased lobbiest group in America.

Since it seems our votes mean less then lobbiest dollars and I dont see an end to that anytime soon I am once again a member of the NRA as of a few hours ago. I now have not only voted but also put my money down to pay for politics and policy.