Vote Here!

[elizabethann]

So let's vote. Who are you voting for tomorrow? All answers are anonymous. Please, only those who are voting tomorrow, please vote here.

[Karen]

As well as voting in the presidential contest tomorrow, I will be voting Yes on 3 to ban commercial greyhound racing in Massachusetts!

[caseysmom]

As well as voting in the presidential contest tomorrow, I will be voting Yes on 3 to ban commercial greyhound racing in Massachusetts!

Good for you Karen, we also have a proposition concerning farm animal rights which I will be voting yes on.

[RICHARD]

I am gong to wait until the 5th and do the American thing.

I'll vote for the winner!:rolleyes:

-------------

Prop 8 here in the Land of the Setting Sun and dumbness has to do with Same Sex Marriages.

This should not even be an issue. People should be allowed to get married and be miserable with who ever the want.;)

[Freedom]

Doesn't matter who you are voting for, just get out and VOTE! This is a hard earned RIGHT, and you need to exercise this RIGHT.

And ladies, Women have only had the RIGHT TO VOTE in this country since 1920!

Get out there and VOTE!!!

[caseysmom]

Proposition 4 and proposition 8 are trying to change our constitution and both are backed by the Republican parties.

[RICHARD]

Proposition 4 and proposition 8 are trying to change our constitution and both are backed by the Republican parties.


And to think that there may be a dem or two that opposes it?

Nope, no way.:rolleyes::eek::o

[Cataholic]

Good for you Karen, we also have a proposition concerning farm animal rights which I will be voting yes on.

I would, too! I contributed financially to that cause and pray that it passes! California's laws/progress has a way of travelling across the country.

[Grace]

Proposition 4 and proposition 8 are trying to change our constitution and both are backed by the Republican parties.

Don't know about Prop 4, but Prop 8 is about writing discrimination into a state constitution.

The Constitution was created to give rights to people, not take them away or prevent people from obtaining them. Gay and lesbians getting married have no impact on the success or validity of straight peoples' marriages. Every individual who finds someone they wish to spend the rest of their life with should be given equal protection, rights and responsibility under the law. The end.

[caseysmom]

Don't know about Prop 4, but Prop 8 is about writing discrimination into a state constitution.

The Constitution was created to give rights to people, not take them away or prevent people from obtaining them. Gay and lesbians getting married have no impact on the success or validity of straight peoples' marriages. Every individual who finds someone they wish to spend the rest of their life with should be given equal protection, rights and responsibility under the law. The end.

I couldn't agree with you more and don't really understand why they care so much. We have had lots of nuts out with signs jumping in front of cars and they claim to be worried about the children and they drag their kids out in the rain to hold a sign for hours spewing hate...I don't get it.

[CountryWolf07]

Along with the presidency vote; I voted "NO" to Ohio casinos being built....while "YES" on enviromental issues to save trees, lands, etc.

[Grace]

There are two proposals on the Michigan ballot. One to allow the use of medicinal marijuana; the other in favor of expanding stem cell research. I voted in support of both.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Gay and lesbians getting married have no impact on the success or validity of straight peoples' marriages.

The commercial that most baffles me is the one that says Prop 8 will "restore traditional marriage." Why didn't anyone tell me my "traditional marriage" needed restoring???? What happened to it?

[caseysmom]

The commercial that most baffles me is the one that says Prop 8 will "restore traditional marriage." Why didn't anyone tell me my "traditional marriage" needed restoring???? What happened to it?

Exactly, gay marriages have not hurt my marriage, not sure how they have harmed anybody elses.

[IRescue452]

Glad to be voting, though no idea who I'll go with locally, I'm so sick of all the local WI politicians, heck with them all, this state could be run better by one of my dogs.

[JenBKR]

With the divorce rate at around 50%, I think that 'traditional' marriage is gone anyway....why should the government get to decide who should be allowed to marry?


I am not familiar with prop 4...will have to check on that one.

[popcornbird]

Gay 'marriage' is not marriage. It never has been, and it never will be, even if the law states that it is. Marriage has always been between a man and a woman. That's what marriage is!! Man + Woman...that's IT.

If people want to do weird/gross things in their lives or in their homes, and the government IS giving them rights, well, they have nothing to complain about. My question is this. Why do THEY want to call their 'union' a MARRIAGE when it is NOT? Why do they call it a fundamental RIGHT??? when it is not? Jeez. And they compare it to races...that's the most hilarious part about it.

Marriage is marriage. A contract of union between a man and a woman. That is it. That's how it was since the creation of mankind and that's what it means. They can call their 'union' whatever they want, but the reality is, it isn't marriage.

I registered to vote this year JUST to vote YES on prop 8, and many, many people have done the same. This is actually more important for me than the presidential elections because I'm not really impressed by either candidate. I care for Prop 8, and Prop 2 (the animal rights one), and am voting a big YES to both of them. Prop 8 isn't about taking 'rights' away from anyone. Its about preserving marriage as what it IS, preserving family as what it IS, and protecting parents rights over their children. Do you folks know that in Massachusetts, a father was taken to jail just because he didn't want the school teaching his 5 year old child about same sex marriage? Now THAT is a violation of rights. The government has no right to prevent people from raising their own children with the moral values and ethics they decide. Besides, who teaches a 5 year old about adult relationships anyway? A 5 year old is far too young to even know about normal male/female relationships. These schools/teachers have some serious issues. I would never raise my children in such an abnormal environment, with such abnormal teachings. 'The King and the King'...What a joke of a book. :( All they want to do is brainwash kids from the time when they're too young to understand anything or form an opinion.

Funny how every other thing becomes a 'fundamental right' these days...even things that are abnormal and wrong, from a moral/ethical point of view, scientifically speaking, and in all religious values.

What's wrong is wrong. Wrong will never be right. The problem is when you hear a lie so many times, you start thinking its the truth. Marriage has never been about party 1 and party 2. It has always been between bride and groom, and should always be that way. That's what marriage is. It isn't anything else.

This should not even be an issue. Sometimes I wonder who was the idiot who even came up with the idea about making marriage between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. Its just sooo messed up. It isn't marriage!!!

Sorry about going so long, but I feel very strongly about this issue. I'm disgusted by the behavior of the 'no to prop 8' people, stealing yes to prop 8 signs from everywhere. They're the ones who are taking peoples' rights away, not the other way around. This shouldn't have even been an issue, because Californians voted Yes to Prop 22 and passed it long time ago. Who were the judges to overturn the vote of the people? Rights...:rolleyes: Next time we blink, they might be making marrying your biological sibling a right. Then when we blink again, they'll be making it legal to marry your mom! Hey, if they love each other, why not?

Some things just aren't 'RIGHTS'!!!

[caseysmom]

There are also ignorant people that think muslims are terrorists...its just not good to judge people, I would think you would realize that, its very sad that you think such hateful thoughts.

[kitten645]

"There are also ignorant people that think muslims are terrorists...its just not good to judge people, I would think you would realize that, its very sad that you think such hateful thoughts"

Amen to that. But I'm not surprised :rolleyes: I too have to wonder "What are they scared of?" No on H8! :D
Claudia

[blue]

I dont have a problem with gay marriage, what I have a problem with is that married couples have more rights in some cases and more penalties in other cases then single citizens and non married couples do. Gay people want the unions sanctioned at the state or federal level to get the same rights, including the penalties that hetro couples get. One or two groups should not benifit any more then the third group does, we are all Americans and should be treated equally.

[popcornbird]

There are also ignorant people that think muslims are terrorists...its just not good to judge people, I would think you would realize that, its very sad that you think such hateful thoughts.

Nice. So now I'm ignorant for believing in reality (marriage between man and woman), and I'm also hateful for believing in reality (that only men and women are made to get married to each other). And somehow attacking me brings you some sort of satisfaction?? You think I care about what a few people think? I don't care about people who insist on what is wrong. The fact is, marriage was never about party 1 and party 2. It was always about bride and groom. It is supposed to be about bride and groom...AND, anyone who tries to teach a 5 year old child about adult relationships is seriously messed up. That's a parent's job.

As to judging people, I am not judging anyone...I am talking about marriage here....HOWEVER, if it was SO wrong to judge people who do wrong things, then we shouldn't have any judges or civil law in our society. That's what they do. JUDGE. I guess all judges are bad people then (not in my opinion, but according to your argument).

Let's not judge a man who wants to marry his sister then. And why should we judge people who have 10 wives? Its their choice. Why should we prevent moms and sons from marrying? Don't they have any rights to make their own decisions? Think rationally. This is not about rights. This is about marriage and family, and marriage and family have always had ONE meaning. That meaning should stay forever.

[Catty1]

Since the gay marriage thing stirred stuff up in Canada, I think I'll try to clarify something.

OK - man and woman alone can get married, or have a marriage (bear with me here).

A gay couple, I believe, has the right to a union that is identical - however, give it another name BESIDES "marriage".

The issue here is dictionary meaning/legal description of a union. If it's a man and woman, it's marriage. If it's man and man, or woman and woman, it is --- ?

The relationship is the same, but the word needs to be different.

I think that is what is upsetting people that are married, man and woman. The word "marriage" is special to them.

I am not really agreeing or disagreeing here...just pointing out that it is a question of terminology, not rights, and nothing to do with hate or being cruel.

Know what I mean?

:)

[caseysmom]

I have been married for 27 years and I would have no problem sharing the word with another couple be it two men or two women, doesn't lessen my union one bit...guess my marriage is pretty secure that way.

[Alysser]

Wow, so much hate in one post. :( If people want to do weird and gross thing in there own home, wow do you even KNOW how rude that sounds. I understand it's not your choice but to say something about someone else's choice of being gay in that matter, wow, that's just completely rude and hateful.

[IRescue452]

I don't care what they call it, I just want the person I love the most to be able to be in a damn hospital room with me and other such rights. How is that so hard?

BTW: how is allowing a marriage between two consenting adults of any gender going to lead to the marriage between siblings and parents/children? That's a totally spereate issue that's not being brung up yet. You are being irrational.

[caseysmom]

I don't care what they call it, I just want the person I love the most to be able to be in a damn hospital room with me and other such rights. How is that so hard?

BTW: how is allowing a marriage between two consenting adults of any gender going to lead to the marriage between siblings and parents/children? That's a totally spereate issue that's not being brung up yet. You are being irrational.


Its a scare tactic.

[beeniesmom]

A similar amendment (#2) is on the ballot in Florida (about defining the word marriage between a man and a woman).

Even though I consider myself to be a Roman Catholic, I voted NO because I don't feel confortable thinking that I would have the right to judge what a person can or cannot do with thier life and who they spend it with.
I am not God, nor is anybody else on this earth so we really shouldn't even have the choice of telling people with whom they can spend thier life with.

I can understand where you are coming from popcornbird and I respect that too but religion aside, who makes the rules here? We are mere mortals.

I also voted NO because I think it really doesn't have anything to do with "gay" marriage as opposed to domestic partnerships (wheather it's a man/woman, man/man, woman/woman). If the Amendment passes, the civil rights of these people would be restricted.

As of now, it is estimated that Florida has 160 thousand domestic partnerships of which gay couples are only about 40 thousand. Why would I want to restrict someone from seeing thier loved one in a hospital in case of emergency or tell them they can't have survivor benefits when one or the other passes on, among many other things, just because they are not married or because they are gay?

[caseysmom]

On a lighter note I am excited about voting today, I can't remember the last time I felt this excited, even though California doesn't count:D

[RICHARD]

LOL,

Like who really cares about what goes on in someone's home?

People have made this a 'battleground' topic/amendment from the start.

I could really give a flying handshake about who, what, when and where.

Kee-rist, we get so uppity about where people park their bodies at night it makes me want to laugh and ask them about what else people Oppose/Rubberstamp.

Listen very carefully when a politician gets busted for ----------(fill in your crime of choice here). Chances are the spouse is holding down the fort while Mr. Politics is misbehaving with his constituents. And don't forget the tearful press conference with the missus and kids standing by, the admission to the ----------Clinic (insert your disease of choice here) and a triumphant return to public office. Chances are the biggest proponents of the law are sinners/FAs/liars and morons-guilty of the thing they detest the most.

Guilt, It a mind and soul cleanser!

------------


I have always been of the mind that the only rule should be,
"Don't push my nose into you politics, and I won't push your face into my toilet."

Be happy, pay taxes, get miserable, cheat, have a contentious divorce and drink like a fish afterwards.

Why should we care about who and why?:rolleyes:

[MoonandBean]

On a lighter note I am excited about voting today, I can't remember the last time I felt this excited, even though California doesn't count:D

I found myself feeling very excited too. The lady at the election site told me to "save my ticket. This could be a historic event". I think it already is. I'm nervous too...I sure hope ________ wins! :)

[caseysmom]

I hope all the morons clean up all there signs when this is over.

[IRescue452]

I got free papa burgers from A&W for voting :p Gotta love grand opening promotions on the sidewalk outside village hall. I wrote in a bunch of my teachers and such for local government. These people are going to win because they are running against themselves, I might as well tell the state I'm bored with them. WI seems to be stuck in a noaction-jackson rut, sure we're a well-oiled state, but we're not moving forward or backward very fast.

[beeniesmom]

I hope all the morons clean up all there signs when this is over.


Sticky fingers, in NE florida is giving away appetizers for every sign you bring in, but starting tomorrow. :)

[Barbara]

It will be very interesting to see whether PT is representative. If yes we can sell the community to the fancy forecasting companies next time ;)

[-Pickle-]

Gay 'marriage' is not marriage. It never has been, and it never will be, even if the law states that it is. Marriage has always been between a man and a woman. That's what marriage is!! Man + Woman...that's IT.
Then what is 'Marriage'? What is 'Man'? What is 'Woman'? I'm guessing your against transexuals as well then. Ever met someone who defines themself as the opposite or both genders? Perhaps even no gender? Well the person typing this paragraph has a tendency to ignore gender lines, although I am biologically female, I dont refer to myself as mentally female or male. Does that mean I cant marry? Man or woman?


If people want to do weird/gross things in their lives or in their homes, and the government IS giving them rights, well, they have nothing to complain about. My question is this. Why do THEY want to call their 'union' a MARRIAGE when it is NOT? Why do they call it a fundamental RIGHT??? when it is not? Jeez. And they compare it to races...that's the most hilarious part about it.

as a member of the LGBT community I'm disgusted to the point that I want to throw up. weird? gross? This is the 21st century! We are couples just like straight people. Perhaps there are a few differences. Why deny us the rights that marriage grants and metaphorically slap us in the face my not even allowing our 'unions' to be called marriages!?

Marriage is marriage. A contract of union between a man and a woman. That is it. That's how it was since the creation of mankind and that's what it means. They can call their 'union' whatever they want, but the reality is, it isn't marriage.
When mankind was 'created' (oh, there is a creationist in out midst? I wouldn't be surprised to be honest.) infact I'm going to put when mankind was evolving, marriage did not exist. It was created by humans for fidelity reasons. Times change- marriage isnt even necessary now. Why don't we just abolish marriage & then the problem is solved :rolleyes:


I registered to vote this year JUST to vote YES on prop 8, and many, many people have done the same. This is actually more important for me than the presidential elections because I'm not really impressed by either candidate. I care for Prop 8, and Prop 2 (the animal rights one), and am voting a big YES to both of them. Prop 8 isn't about taking 'rights' away from anyone. Its about preserving marriage as what it IS, preserving family as what it IS, and protecting parents rights over their children. Do you folks know that in Massachusetts, a father was taken to jail just because he didn't want the school teaching his 5 year old child about same sex marriage? Now THAT is a violation of rights. The government has no right to prevent people from raising their own children with the moral values and ethics they decide. Besides, who teaches a 5 year old about adult relationships anyway? A 5 year old is far too young to even know about normal male/female relationships. These schools/teachers have some serious issues. I would never raise my children in such an abnormal environment, with such abnormal teachings. 'The King and the King'...What a joke of a book. :( All they want to do is brainwash kids from the time when they're too young to understand anything or form an opinion.
you sound like the kind of person that would disown their child for being homosexual. Studies have shown that sexuality is likely to be determined by genetics. Can't stop that can you? What if your son or daughter came to you one day, crying their eyes out because they can't get married to the love of their life due to something you voted for?
I know quite alot of Gay, Lesbian and bisexual people, and a transexual is one of my role models.
did you folks also know that LGBT people have a higher suicide rate than straight people? Its probably safe to say, that people like you popcornbird help in that. Would you like to be abused for your love?
What if it were your child that killed themself due to homophobic abuse.
Thats what your so called arguement is. Homophobic.


Funny how every other thing becomes a 'fundamental right' these days...even things that are abnormal and wrong, from a moral/ethical point of view, scientifically speaking, and in all religious values.

Morally and ethically, your arguement is wrong. Dare you be so hipocritical? Homeosexuals are people too you know. People have rights, regardless of their romantic interests.

What's wrong is wrong. Wrong will never be right. The problem is when you hear a lie so many times, you start thinking its the truth. Marriage has never been about party 1 and party 2. It has always been between bride and groom, and should always be that way. That's what marriage is. It isn't anything else.
you should watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtp8n-2y7Yk
and before you say it, the perverted videos thing is for a joke.
Her videos are for humour.



This should not even be an issue. Sometimes I wonder who was the idiot who even came up with the idea about making marriage between a man and a man or a woman and a woman. Its just sooo messed up. It isn't marriage!!!

Sorry about going so long, but I feel very strongly about this issue. I'm disgusted by the behavior of the 'no to prop 8' people, stealing yes to prop 8 signs from everywhere. They're the ones who are taking peoples' rights away, not the other way around. This shouldn't have even been an issue, because Californians voted Yes to Prop 22 and passed it long time ago. Who were the judges to overturn the vote of the people? Rights...:rolleyes: Next time we blink, they might be making marrying your biological sibling a right. Then when we blink again, they'll be making it legal to marry your mom! Hey, if they love each other, why not?

Some things just aren't 'RIGHTS'!!!

It isnt marriage.
Yet.
People take down the signs. so put them back up if it bothers you! I'm more disgusted about the yes to prop 8 people that are spreading lies, lies and more lies. I've put countless 'this is a hunt crimewatch area' signs up around my area to prevent the killing of foxes & to let tedworth know they wont get away with it. You know what I do? put them back up.
prop 22 was a long time ago.
times change. This generation are more out & proud of their sexualities and should be able to marry who we want.
Marry your mom/siblings/dog?
What on earth are you on!
Incest isnt the same as homosexuality and it never, ever will be. Taking peoples rights away? If this law passes, valid couples rights to marry have been taken away.

:rolleyes: Honestly.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb165/Myicklekitty/2008-11-04-77825.jpg
-homophobia is Gay day 2008

[I apologise for gramatical + spelling errors, I am very angry & I couldn't care much less which button is where]

[Karen]

Remember, this is Pet Talk, we need to be respectful of each other, even when we have differences of opinion.

[Kfamr]

No point in wasting your time over this, guys. Popcornbird has thought this way for years, hasn't changed a bit, so no point in trying to sway her opinion now. :)

[-Pickle-]

I understand that we need to be respectful of each other & I have been warned in the past. I've listened. But, I am offended.

[ramanth]

There are two proposals on the Michigan ballot. One to allow the use of medicinal marijuana; the other in favor of expanding stem cell research. I voted in support of both.
Same here. :)

[k9krazee]

Same here. :)

Me too. :)

[ramanth]

We rock Ashley! ;)


I hope all the morons clean up all there signs when this is over.
Any signs not claimed in empty open fields will get turned into costume parts. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/lachen/laughing-smiley-004.gif Yay for free styrene! :D

[Alysser]

According to CNN.com Obama is currently winning 77 to 34 for McCain!

:)

[phesina]

Me too. :)

Me three! or four? whatever

[caseysmom]

According to CNN.com Obama is currently winning 77 to 34 for McCain!

:)

Electoral votes...I think its going to be a nail biter but Obama is doing very well.

[Puckstop31]

Not surprisingly, PA seems to be going for Obama.

But... We have this... In Killadelphia, the City of Brotherly Shove.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neGbKHyGuHU


And this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI


Somebody is gonna be awfully disappointed. LOL

New Jersey, I think I can speak for most of PA when I say... "You guys want Philly?" LOL

:)

[sparks19]

Obama 103 McCain 69 now

[Catty1]

This link shows how the 'other' parties are doing.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/president/allcandidates/

One question - at the top of this chart, it shows Obama leading McCain by about 1%...but in other charts, like the stat sparks19 posted, there is a wider gap between them. So...it is really close or not? Trying to understand here.

[Catty1]

Electoral votes: 174 Obama, 64 McCain.

270 needed to win, huh? Seems to be a trend here...but only 11% of precincts reporting...:)

Dems have the Senate - 52 to 35, 51 needed for control.

This is interesting!

[Puckstop31]

Was it ever really in doubt? LOL

We are certainly going to get "change" Problem is, will it be what the people are expecting? Specifically... The Economy...

I again extend my challenge to any Obama supporter... Especially now that it seems he is going to win... Tell me how...

A.) Increasing taxes on ANY group of people helps GROW an economy?

B.) Letting President Bush's tax cuts (the ONLY thing the guy got right) expire, (read: a tax INCREASE on EVERYbody) help grow the economy.

I promise, no BS. But I do challenge any Obama suppoter to tell me why YOU think his economic plan will succeed.

[Alysser]

I never really cared much for politics till this election, this is really exciting!! My stupid history teacher gave us a map to color for it, I hate her but anyway this is pretty exciting. I can't believe Obama won Ohio! :eek: Democrats have never won that state. I hope he gets Calif.

[sparks19]

This link shows how the 'other' parties are doing.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/president/allcandidates/

One question - at the top of this chart, it shows Obama leading McCain by about 1%...but in other charts, like the stat sparks19 posted, there is a wider gap between them. So...it is really close or not? Trying to understand here.

Because there is the ELECTORAL vote and the POPULAR vote.

the nation wide popular vote doesn't really mean anything. It's the winner of each individual states popular vote that gets the electoral vote for that state. whoever gets the most electoral votes get the presidency

[Alysser]

Was it ever really in doubt? LOL

We are certainly going to get "change" Problem is, will it be what the people are expecting? Specifically... The Economy...

I again extend my challenge to any Obama supporter... Especially now that it seems he is going to win... Tell me how...

A.) Increasing taxes on ANY group of people helps GROW an economy?

B.) Letting President Bush's tax cuts (the ONLY thing the guy got right) expire, (read: a tax INCREASE on EVERYbody) help grow the economy.

I promise, no BS. But I do challenge any Obama suppoter to tell me why YOU think his economic plan will succeed.

All I can say is I'm TIRED of Bush ruining this country. It's time to try a different party. This is coming from someone who's brother fought in Iraq for 14 months, who's brother works for votevets.org, and who's brother has done countless things in politics. His life revolves around it, so it's not really a surprise my entire family is democratic.

[Catty1]

Our public broadcaster, the CBC, has an unscientific poll online asking Canadians if they could vote in the US, who would they vote for?;)

http://www.cbc.ca/calgary/

[Catty1]

D 194 R 69

[.sarah]

A similar amendment (#2) is on the ballot in Florida (about defining the word marriage between a man and a woman).

Even though I consider myself to be a Roman Catholic, I voted NO because I don't feel confortable thinking that I would have the right to judge what a person can or cannot do with thier life and who they spend it with.
I am not God, nor is anybody else on this earth so we really shouldn't even have the choice of telling people with whom they can spend thier life with.

I voted NO on amendment 2 also :)


I'm not liking how this is going so far though ... I will support whomever wins and becomes our president but obviously I have a preference and I voted for who I think is better between the two.

It's getting closer though ...

Not thinking I'll be getting much sleep tonight!

[ramanth]

Was it ever really in doubt? LOL

We are certainly going to get "change" Problem is, will it be what the people are expecting? Specifically... The Economy...

I again extend my challenge to any Obama supporter... Especially now that it seems he is going to win... Tell me how...

A.) Increasing taxes on ANY group of people helps GROW an economy?

B.) Letting President Bush's tax cuts (the ONLY thing the guy got right) expire, (read: a tax INCREASE on EVERYbody) help grow the economy.

I promise, no BS. But I do challenge any Obama suppoter to tell me why YOU think his economic plan will succeed.

I didn't vote for Obama specifically for his economic plan. I just agreed with him more on other stances that I didn't agree with McCain/Palin about honestly.

And in the end, like Alysser said, I'm tired of having a Republican in the White House and am willing to give the Democrats a shot at it again.

I did vote for our local Republican in the House though. I like him and am happy to see he's in the lead.

So I didn't vote straight Dem.

[Puckstop31]

Dems have the Senate - 52 to 35, 51 needed for control.

This is interesting!

The key number in the Senate is 60. Less than 60 adn the minority party can use a process called a "filibuster" to bascially table a piece of legislation and prevent a vote on it.

I think that the key issue tonight is ensuring that no one party has complete control of the US Government.

Plainly spoken... Obama is WAY to far to the left. If he gets a fully Democratic legislature, it is possible that he can do too many things that middle America will NOT be willing to take. Middle America will not take it. States WILL secede.

It could get ugly.

I pray that it does not. But listening to things Obama says he wants to do... :eek: He is JUST like Bush, only left rather than right. Just as much a divider, not a uniter.

[Puckstop31]

All I can say is I'm TIRED of Bush ruining this country. It's time to try a different party. This is coming from someone who's brother fought in Iraq for 14 months, who's brother works for votevets.org, and who's brother has done countless things in politics. His life revolves around it, so it's not really a surprise my entire family is democratic.

Obama... Bush.... McCain....

What's the difference?


Again I extend my challenge to tell me how Obama's economic plan helps the economy grow?

[Puckstop31]

I'd just like to add...

It pisses me off to hear people say this country is RUINED.

You eat everyday. Probably too much.

You have a roof over your head.

You most likely have a car.

You spend more time with entertainment than work or feeding yourself.

You have freedoms a majority of the world is jealous of.

And on.... And on.... And on...

How fat, lazy, sloth and entitled we have become.

[Catty1]

OT - I have watched a couple of interviews, etc - and MANY people are just going to be plain EXHAUSTED after tonight...the volunteers, staff, workers, and - not the least - the candidates.

But whoever the new President is - does he get any days off to recoup? Maybe some down time before the swearing in?

[Sirrahsim]

OT - I have watched a couple of interviews, etc - and MANY people are just going to be plain EXHAUSTED after tonight...the volunteers, staff, workers, and - not the least - the candidates.

But whoever the new President is - does he get any days off to recoup? Maybe some down time before the swearing in?

Whoever wins tonight will not actually be sworn in until January 20th

[ramanth]

Ruined? No. But it could be better. I hope it will get better.

I used to enjoy far more entertainment before we were raped with gas prices. My hubby and I rarely go on dates anymore because we can't afford it. When we see each other that is since he has to work two part time jobs to make ends meet.

I'm grateful we do have food in our cupboards, but it's the bare minimum and mostly staples. Can barely afford fresh or organic. I splurge on soy milk though. :o

Blessed I have a car and a roof over my head.

A lot has changed in the past eight years though. I wish I could be fat, lazy, and sloth.

[Alysser]

I never said the country was completely ruined, I said Bush is ruining it though. And actually I spent my entire summer at Six Flags working my a$$ off, and I spend 8 hours in school and another 2-3 hours doing homework and studying nearly everyday. I don't exactly think I get more entertainment then work. AND I'm on a diet ;)

[Puckstop31]

Fair enough Ramanath and Allysser. (SP, :) )

Would you be willing to answer my question then? Please explain to me why YOU think Obama's economic plan will fix things?

Personally, I think he will make things worse. MUCH worse.

I see people voting for Obama because they are pissed off at Bush and rightly so. But NObody has yet told me how Obama's policies will GROW the economy.

It's to the point where the unified silence is deafening.

I promise, right hand on the Bible to NOT tear apart anyone who answers the challenge. All I would like is ONE honest answer.

[Catty1]

PS - I think only the next government of the US - as any nation's government - can really answer that question. What candidates SAY and what they are actually able to DO can be two (or more) very different things.

207 to 135....kind of close!

[Giselle]

Puckstop, here's the answer as I perceive it.

The MOST wealthy of this country can afford to pay more in taxes and still live their wonderful lifestyles. That money will be used to fund Obama's plans, etc. etc.

The less wealthy, which probably includes 95-98% of us, won't get an increase in taxes.

The money has to come from somewhere. Taxes DO need to be taken and, realistically, raised. We've got a huge deficit. We need the money. The money needs to be taken from somewhere. Take it from those who can afford to pay it - the very very rich and the big corporations. Invest that. So, yes, there will be an even bigger deficit for the time being. But there's the catch - you invest it. You should get it back and more.

[Puckstop31]

PS - I think only the next government of the US - as any nation's government - can really answer that question. What candidates SAY and what they are actually able to DO can be two (or more) very different things.

207 to 135....kind of close!

Of course... But in a democracy, the government is supposed to BE the people.


So I challenge the people who are voting for the guy who seems to be winning to tell me how they think Obama's policies will benefit the economy.

Such a simple question on such an important issue should be easy to answer, right?

Or are they just voting against Bush... Who is not even on the ballot!!!

But it's all good... In the end, we will get the government we deserve.

[Giselle]

I never really cared much for politics till this election, this is really exciting!! My stupid history teacher gave us a map to color for it, I hate her but anyway this is pretty exciting. I can't believe Obama won Ohio! :eek: Democrats have never won that state. I hope he gets Calif.

Also, Alyssa, you won't need to hope. California is pretty darn blue.. Probably one of the bluest states. I think we're fighting with NY for that title ;)

[Puckstop31]

Puckstop, here's the answer as I perceive it.

The MOST wealthy of this country can afford to pay more in taxes and still live their wonderful lifestyles. That money will be used to fund Obama's plans, etc. etc.

So we punish success. How American. As for Obama's plans... When did we become a nation that looks to government to solve our problems? Last I checked, we were supposed to be a nation of go getters and self starters.


The less wealthy, which probably includes 95-98% of us, won't get an increase in taxes.

So the bump in your tax rate when he lets the tax cuts expire is what???


The money has to come from somewhere. Taxes DO need to be taken and, realistically, raised. We've got a huge deficit. We need the money. The money needs to be taken from somewhere. Take it from those who can afford to pay it - the very very rich and the big corporations.

Why not cut spending to pay for it? You know, all that totally unconsitutional spending congress does...

If you lay heavy taxes on big biz,,, How do you think they will recover the extra cost? Higher prices on everything... Its simple Economics 101.


Invest that. So, yes, there will be an even bigger deficit for the time being. But there's the catch - you invest it. You should get it back and more.

Invest it in what? The stock market? With a high tax, investment prohibitive Obama econony?

Higher taxes = economic depression. Period.

[Catty1]

Something that happens in Canada, and I am sure in the US as well...

If the really rich get taxed too much, the money gets stashed in an offshore account. So it all leaves the country.

The next government will have to deal with that, for sure.

[Puckstop31]

Tomorrow...

I am renewing my CCW, buying a pistol and putting a down payment on a battle rifle... To be paid off before Obama takes his oath (with his fingers crossed, I guess...)

THEN, bury it in a secret spot and pray everyday I don't need to dig it up...

Not being crazy... Just a good Boy Scout.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Hey guys! PS wants you to write things about Obama's plans so he can write crap about how wrong you are and how evil Obama is!

Don't drink his Kool-Aid...let him find his own juices in which to stew!

[sparks19]

Hey guys! PS wants you to write things about Obama's plans so he can write crap about how wrong you are and how evil Obama is!

Don't drink his Kool-Aid...let him find his own juices in which to stew!

LMFAO

YOu make me laugh.

I'm sure everyone here can think for themselves without needing you to take their hand and guide them ;)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Well...I am pleased to know I gave you a laugh. Makes my day!

[ramanth]

Fair enough Ramanath and Allysser. (SP, :) )

Would you be willing to answer my question then? Please explain to me why YOU think Obama's economic plan will fix things?
According to both Obama's and McCain's sites, all I see are promises of tax cuts.

All you ask is about tax hikes... I'm not seeing it.

But then, I never watched the debates and pretty much avoided tv as a whole these past months, so maybe I missed something.

Like I said, I didn't vote for Obama based on his economic plan, so I can't give you the answer you seek.

[sparks19]

Well...I am pleased to know I gave you a laugh. Makes my day!

Glad I could help you feel some happiness. Everyone needs a little happiness sometimes. Doesn't pay to be angry all the time

[Grace]

I never expected to see what just happened.

I was raised in Rhode Island, raised without prejudice. I didn't understand prejudice until 1963.

I took a bus trip from NYC to Norfolk, Virginia to visit my fiance. There was a stop in Richmond. It was there that I saw the separate restrooms, the separate water fountains. I was truly aghast.

And tonight we have elected Barack Obama to be President.

In my lifetime . . . . .

[Puckstop31]

Hey guys! PS wants you to write things about Obama's plans so he can write crap about how wrong you are and how evil Obama is!

Don't drink his Kool-Aid...let him find his own juices in which to stew!

Aww muffin...

I want an honest discussion. I do not believe Obama is evil, but I DO believe he is wrong.

Spin it all you want. ALL I want is an honest chat. Not the divisive, sophmoric drivel you constantly spew forth.


Yeah, Yeah..
As for juices to stew in... There is not ONE ounce of anger here. Only a sadness...

[kt_luvs_kitties]

And disgust here. Do you see all the people celebrating. They look ridiculous:rolleyes:

Cant just smile and cheer, NOPE. Gotta scream, dance, and just, blech.:eek::rolleyes:

And no, I would not have celebrated if McCain won either. I would have said "I am happy, hope he works out"...

[ramanth]

You know Grace, I didn't think I'd ever live to see it either.

[Puckstop31]

Grace... Ramanth... McCain (as I watch his concession speech...)


It IS about race afterall????


How sad...

[kt_luvs_kitties]

Puck, I believe so...

Lets hope race does NOT blind HIM in doing the right thing... Hopefully it wont.

[sparks19]

I just thank God it wasn't Hilary :D

watching McCains speech right now

I don't care what anyone says... he's a good man at heart and this is a good speech.

[ramanth]

Grace... Ramanth... McCain (as I watch his concession speech...)


It IS about race afterall????


How sad...
For me? No. I would LOVE to see a woman president or vice president, but didn't agree with Palin on many issues.

You can't deny that it is historic in the respects that Grace mentioned.

Here's to a woman president/vice president in the very near future!!

Sparks, you are right. I'm sure McCain is a very nice man and his speech is very good.

[Grace]

John McCain - what a class act. As I'm certain Barack Obama would have been if the situation was reversed.


It IS about race afterall????

No, and yes. It saddens me that you can't see what I see. If Sarah Palin had been elected VP, I would have said something similar about her being the first woman elected to that office.

I'm really disappointed in you, Brian. Perhaps it is because you're so young.

[caseysmom]

I just thank God it wasn't Hilary :D

watching McCains speech right now

I don't care what anyone says... he's a good man at heart and this is a good speech.
Yes he is a good man and he is a classy guy.

[Puckstop31]

John McCain - what a class act. As I'm certain Barack Obama would have been if the situation was reversed.



No, and yes. It saddens me that you can't see what I see. If Sarah Palin had been elected VP, I would have said something similar about her being the first woman elected to that office.

I'm really disappointed in you, Brian. Perhaps it is because you're so young.

I am sorry Gretchen... But after seeing and hearing what I did about what happened in Philadelphia... I fear race was a MAJOR issue in the choice of many people. Very sad.

Like many have said about Palin.... They would support a woman President, just not Palin. I would support a black President, just not Obama.

Young? 3 Combat tours. 5 years of post seconday education. I am proud of what I have been through in my 34 (almost 35) years.

[Grace]

The more I think about Puckstop's remarks, the angrier I get.

I would NEVER vote for a candidate for office simply because s/he is black, white, polka dot, female. And that is exactly what he implied.

[sparks19]

I'm really disappointed in you, Brian. Perhaps it is because you're so young.

uh oh... I'm going to have an inflated head to deal with tonight. You called him young... he doesn't believe it lol

sorry... off topic but I thought we needed a little comic relief.

[Puckstop31]

The more I think about Puckstop's remarks, the angrier I get.

I would NEVER vote for a candidate for office simply because s/he is black, white, polka dot, female. And that is exactly what he implied.

Don't get pissed off at me. I would NEVER vote for anyone based on race.

Not what I implied. I was commenting on what somebody ELSE said.

Do NOT slander me.

[ramanth]

And what of the whites that voted for McCain because they didn't want a black man as president? Playing the race card goes both ways.

It kind of seemed to me that you implied that Grace and I voted based on race after we made the historic remarks.

[Puckstop31]

And what of the whites that voted for McCain because they didn't want a black man as president? Playing the race card goes both ways.

No arguement here...

Indeed, Obama's election is historic. But if race does not matter? WHY is it historic?

Please belive me when I say it... Race has ZERO do do with my choices in life. Z...E...R...O. The FINEST human being I ever knew just happened to be a black guy. My platoon sergeant from my Somalia deployment.

So please, pretty please, do not misunderstand me on this...

[ramanth]

But if race does not matter? WHY is it historic?

Race only matters to make it historic. Once blacks were slaves. Now we have a black president.

Women couldn't vote even until the 1920's. Had McCain/Palin of won, gender would of made it historic.

I would hope race nor gender wasn't the deciding factor in anyone's vote, but that's a false hope. I can just honestly say it wasn't MY deciding factor.

[blue]

Tomorrow...

I am renewing my CCW, buying a pistol and putting a down payment on a battle rifle... To be paid off before Obama takes his oath (with his fingers crossed, I guess...)

THEN, bury it in a secret spot and pray everyday I don't need to dig it up...

Not being crazy... Just a good Boy Scout.

While I dont need a lisence to carry concealed I will be getting lisenced before Jan 20th.

[Suki Wingy]

One of my oldest friends, who I have kind of drifted away from's Facebook status is "this country is fu**ed"

I did NOT know she thought that way at all. :(

[kt_luvs_kitties]

Who cares what she thinks? She is entitled to her beliefs, as are you....

She is not happy. Many aren't. It wont change a thing...

It should not matter in the friendship...

[IRescue452]

I just hope nobody shoots the man before he gets a chance to be president. I sure believe there's thousands of extremists willing to take that job. As I watched him give his speech all I could think was to get the man some bullet-proof glass panels around him at all times.

[blue]

Word.

A couple of my coworkers are going to be estatic in the morning, a couple wont care, Ill be unhappy. Jim wouldnt be happy either but he would concede.

[caseysmom]

It looks like prop 8 has passed :( Well popcornbird can rest assured that gay people will be gay no longer:p

[blue]

Alaskan voters defined marriage as one man one woman with a constitutional amendment back in 1998.

[CathyBogart]

*snarl* I'm so glad I'm leaving this state

[beeniesmom]

I am overwhelmed with emotion today.

[beeniesmom]

As well as voting in the presidential contest tomorrow, I will be voting Yes on 3 to ban commercial greyhound racing in Massachusetts!


I am so happy that this passed!!!

[elizabethann]

I am overwhelmed with emotion today.


I am too. I am thrilled that Obama will be our next President of the United States. What a historical moment for all Americans. What a great day to be an American! God Bless the USA!

[caseysmom]

Our proposition 2 passed by an overwhelming majority, this was to give farm animals, namely chickens room to turn and stretch their wings.

[Puckstop31]

Our proposition 2 passed by an overwhelming majority, this was to give farm animals, namely chickens room to turn and stretch their wings.

Cool... But no complaining about more expensive chicken products, OR that your chicken breast sandwich is so tough. LOL

;)

[-Pickle-]

It looks like prop 8 has passed :( Well popcornbird can rest assured that gay people will be gay no longer:p
:rolleyes: They're never going to hear the end of this.


*snarl* I'm so glad I'm leaving this state

Im glad for you too.


Somebody get me a plane! Im going to staple a rainbow flag to my face and handcuff myself to someone in Californias gate!

[caseysmom]

Cool... But no complaining about more expensive chicken products, OR that your chicken breast sandwich is so tough. LOL

;)

I currently only buy free range so I may not see a big jump but if I do I am willing to eat it...figuratively. I didn't vote yes blindly I realize its going to be hard on the farmers, a local dairy just went under and it is very sad but for me it was the right thing to do.

[Puckstop31]

I currently only buy free range so I may not see a big jump but if I do I am willing to eat it...figuratively. I didn't vote yes blindly I realize its going to be hard on the farmers, a local dairy just went under and it is very sad but for me it was the right thing to do.


I was just messing with ya in my first responce.

Also, in case you don't know... Lord willing, I am going to be a dairy farmer (again, sorta) soon. As I age, I am drawn more and more to my roots. Honestly, I so yearn for the day when I can go to work 7 days a week on my farm.

Do you know why the dairy went under by chance? Was it just a dairy or did he have his own land to grow feed?

[caseysmom]

I was just messing with ya in my first responce.

Also, in case you don't know... Lord willing, I am going to be a dairy farmer (again, sorta) soon. As I age, I am drawn more and more to my roots. Honestly, I so yearn for the day when I can go to work 7 days a week on my farm.

Do you know why the dairy went under by chance? Was it just a dairy or did he have his own land to grow feed?

Not really sure they interviewed the daughter, it is crystal, has been around since I was a kid. I think they couldn't compete with the big guys. My sister buys most of her meat from the 4h and her husband use to do a lot of hunting, he hasn't done much anymore but that was how they got most of their meat before. I really would rather eat meat that was hunted than bought in the store.

I didn't know you wanted to have a dairy, that is really cool and would be a great way of life, I wish you lots of luck.

[Puckstop31]

I think they couldn't compete with the big guys.

Then they must have had to buy feed and silage, rather than growing their own. I can imagine this is going to be an issue for a lot of California dairys... Last I checked corn was still in the $8 a bushel area. That is tough on a small farm in California. Grain land is expensive there.


My sister buys most of her meat from the 4h and her husband use to do a lot of hunting, he hasn't done much anymore but that was how they got most of their meat before. I really would rather eat meat that was hunted than bought in the store.

Amen!! :)


I didn't know you wanted to have a dairy, that is really cool and would be a great way of life, I wish you lots of luck.

Thanks. The guy I am going to start it with is the real brains of the operation. He has a 90 head dairy right now, but it is difficult to expand where we are. Crop land can cost well over $5000 or more an acre. We are looking at a few places in the ND,SD,MN area. ND is the most promising, as land can be had for $900 an acre or less. The only issue there is a short season, which is good and bad... Depending on the crop.

[Suki Wingy]

Well, I'm not happy that CA's prop 8 passed. :(

[JenBKR]

I'm sorry to hear that prop 8 passed. I'm not going to lie, I used to have some of the same views on this as popcornbird, though not to the same extent. Although we are different religions (I am Christian, she is Muslim) we sometimes share similiar views. However, in recent years, I have been changing my mind on a lot of things. Who am I to judge? Why shouldn't gay/lesbians be allowed the same rights? They are still people that God created and loves IMO. Had it been an option for me, I would have voted against prop 8.

[caseysmom]

I'm sorry to hear that prop 8 passed. I'm not going to lie, I used to have some of the same views on this as popcornbird, though not to the same extent. Although we are different religions (I am Christian, she is Muslim) we sometimes share similiar views. However, in recent years, I have been changing my mind on a lot of things. Who am I to judge? Why shouldn't gay/lesbians be allowed the same rights? They are still people that God created and loves IMO. Had it been an option for me, I would have voted against prop 8.

Well the way I look at it if they want to be an a monogomous relationship more power to them who am I to tell them they can't.

[JenBKR]

Well the way I look at it if they want to be an a monogomous relationship more power to them who am I to tell them they can't.

I agree - monogomy should be a positive thing, regardless of who is in the relationship.

[popcornbird]

I'm thrilled. This election has been wonderful. Obama won. California voters passed Prop 8. I officially lost 10 pounds this month. (LOL) So yes, I am thrilled...about many things at the same time. This also goes to say, the majority of California believes marriage is between man and woman, as does the entire nation (the fact that gay marriage is illegal in every state besides Massachusettes is clear proof of what the majority in America wants and believes in). No need to fight or scream or pass lawsuits. The people have spoken...TWICE...and it is clear what California believes in.

For those of you who wish to leave California because of this...I guess Massachusetts is the only option, because the other states are only stronger against gay marriages than California. :p

For those of you who commented on my kids (or future kids), I can only say that I intend to be a loving, caring, compassionate parent, who will teach her children right from wrong and wrong from right, who will try to instill in them good moral values, respect for others, and most importantly, I will try my best to raise them up as strong Believers in God Almighty. I intend to make it clear to my children that life is not a fantasy or storybook. In life, we do NOT always get everything we want. In life, we do not always get to have what we want, be with whom we want, or live in a situation that we want. It does not only apply to this issue. Life is not a fantasy. Reality is different from what we imagine, and for those of us who are young, we realize it quickly once we get married and start living as responsible adults in the real world, with all burdens of life on our shoulders. Everything in life is not possible, and everything in life is not acceptable.

Imagine if someone falls in love with another person, and loves that person to the point that he/she cannot imagine life without him/her. Now get this. The person who she considers the 'love of her life'...the person she dreams of, the person she wants to commit to is already married. Can she marry him? NO! Can she be with him? No. Can she live the rest of her life with him? No. Why? Because it isn't going to happen. Somethings are wrong, and we need to learn to accept that. Sometimes marrying the person you 'love' isn't the right choice. Sometimes people destroy their lives by marrying the person they fell in love with, and married JUST because they loved that person. Love, while a serious factor in marriage, is NOT the only bases of a union.

I am a person who is strongly against discrimination in any form. I cannot tolerate people who discriminate against people who are black because they are black, nor can I stand people who discriminate against whites because they are white. I cannot stand people who differentiate between the rich and poor. I am not an advocate of discrimination...nor is anyone else who voted yes to prop 8. I just don't believe ANYONE is supposed to marry the same sex. People who call themselves gay CAN marry. No one is preventing them from finding the love of their life in the opposite gender. If they have the right body parts (male or female), then they can marry people of the opposite sex, just like everyone else does. Like I have said before, and I know I will make some of you laugh by saying this, but you cannot make a computer work by plugging its plug into a plug. It just won't work. Try as hard as you might...that computer of your's will never turn on, will never function, will never help you in any way. Now get an outlet for the plug, and the computer will be functioning great in no time. ;)

Men and women are like that. They are made to 'fit' into each other. That's the way our bodies are made, and that includes the bodies of people who call themselves gay. The action that men and women do together is impossible for people of the same sex to do together. This is why I say it is unnatural. It is. If it wasn't, then they would fit into each other perfectly, just like a man and a woman, but they don't...and a FACT: they never will. When a man and woman are married and have a child together, that child is a part of both of them. That child is made out of a part of his father, and a part of his mother. The development of a child is very, very beautiful. It is impossible for any 'gay couple' to have a child of their own, together, a child that is a part of both of them. Truly, it is impossible. If they get a sperm donor, the daddy is an unknown, and the other partner has nothing to do with the child. They can never have a child of their OWN.

There is a purpose of two genders. There is a purpose of a mother and a father. Kids need both, and while some children in certain situations don't get to live with both, the ideal situation is that a child has both mom and dad. Moms and dads are not exactly the same. Now don't even try to tell me we're in the 21st century, and there's no difference in a mom and a dad in this day and age. There is. Find me one father who can successfully nurse his newborn, and then tell me you found one that's the same. They are not the same. Without insemenation, there can be no baby. Without a womb, there can be no baby. Love makes babies..and babies are born in families, into marriages. Besides, right now, in the 21st century, gay marriage is illegal in almost every country in the world. This includes our own. That should tell you something. Most human beings that exist in the 21st century, believe and KNOW that marriage is only between a man and a woman. Its that simple.

I don't deny that people can have feelings for each other, nor do I judge people for having feelings of affection for other human beings. I don't, and never had a problem with people of the same gender holding hands, or giving each other little kisses (NOTE: I do not mean romantic/french kissing here). In fact, for me, it is completely normal to see guys, friends holding hands and walking. That isn't a 'gay' thing. That is just affection for someone you care about. The problem I have is when people ACT on their feelings in a lustful manner. The problem is when it becomes sexual. Sexual behavior is not always acceptable. Homosexuality comes in that category. So does incest...hence, my reasoning for comparing the two together. Both are immoral types of sexual behavior. Fight with me all you will....the majority of the world agrees with me on this. Your arguments won't make a difference.

Before I finish off typing and go to attend the soup cooking on my stove, I'd like to address Pickle's 'we have a creationist amongst us' comment. Oh wow...like everyone on PT is a non-believer. :rolleyes: I have been a member of PT for many, many years (my estimate is 6 years but I'm not sure), and know many religious people here, as well as people who are not that religious, but most definitely believe in God and the fact that He Created us. As far as I know, most, or a very large number of people on PT believe in God, and rightly so. I cannot imagine that things have changed here to the extent that everyone has changed their ways and beliefs. We did not all fall out of the sky. I'm not even going to get into that debate right now because you will end up getting lectured, and I'm not in the mood for that right now, but seriously...if you have a problem with people who believe in God, something is seriously wrong with you.

For those of you who say we are not God...who are we to judge? Absolutely. The whole reason we judge is because God has already judged. It is GOD who told us of the sin of sodomy, and it is GOD who told us about the nation of Prophet Lot and their sin of homosexuality. God's Word. God's judgement. Not mine. Not anyone else's. God's. If God created them that way, then God would not have spoken against them, but He did, which means, their actions are actions that anger God. Once again, I know we're not God. This is God's judgement, and I will stand by the side that God stands by. (And no, this is not only in the Bible, but in pretty much every religious book, in pretty much every main religion).

[Catty1]

This relates to Christian parents, but I think it applies to any parents of faith who face what other parents do. Long - but please read it carefully.

http://www.hhproject.org/articles/christiangayteen

Others:
http://titration.blogspot.com/2007/04/books-to-help-christian-parents-with.html

10 Tips for Christian Parents with Gay Children
http://www.newlife.com/article.asp?id=111

One point of view on the "biblical proof" that being gay is wrong, written by Pastor John, who worked as a Christian Pastor
http://allfaith.com/Grace/

[beeniesmom]

I really wanted to comment but I'm not sure if I would fall into disrepect.

[Daisy and Delilah]

I really wanted to comment but I'm not sure if I would fall into disrepect.

Same here, Carmen. I really don't know how to put it into the right words to make my point so I'll stay silent.:confused:

[IRescue452]

What about animals who exhibit same sex relationships (its been seen in many many species)? Why does your god make male penguin + male penguin for instance?

[ramanth]

Or those little critters that can mate with themselves. ;) :cool:

[blue]

What about animals who exhibit same sex relationships (its been seen in many many species)? Why does your god make male penguin + male penguin for instance?

The animal kingdom dosent give them special treatment over single or non married couples, reguardless of hetro or homo relationship. Married couples should not get benifits or penalties that single or unmarried couples do not recieve.

[beeniesmom]

The animal kingdom dosent give them special treatment over single or non married couples, reguardless of hetro or homo relationship. Married couples should not get benifits or penalties that single or unmarried couples do not recieve.

Wow Blue, for once I agree with you! ;)

[Catty1]

PCB: If you do some checking around at your place of worship, or on the net, you will find many good parents who raised wonderful children, some of whom face telling their parents that they are gay. Many know this from the time they are 3 or 5, much younger than puberty.

The reality is - people are gay, and it may be one of your own children. What will you do then?

This excerpt is from the first link I posted several posts ago.

"The story that stabbed me in the heart most profoundly was from a woman who described herself as a conservative Christian who believes homosexuality is a sin. She said her daughter had come out to her as a lesbian and that in one terrible moment she had told her daughter, "After you get fixed you can come home again."

After that the daughter refused to have anything to do with the mother. The mother said, "I should have picked up my purse and my keys and drove 550 miles to make her talk to me but I didn't.". A year later her daughter was found dead hanging in her own closet, a suicide.

Will you love your children no matter what?

I think the following is well worth copying here.

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let our bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

[-Pickle-]

I'm thrilled. This election has been wonderful. Obama won. California voters passed Prop 8. I officially lost 10 pounds this month. (LOL) So yes, I am thrilled...about many things at the same time. This also goes to say, the majority of California believes marriage is between man and woman, as does the entire nation (the fact that gay marriage is illegal in every state besides Massachusettes is clear proof of what the majority in America wants and believes in). No need to fight or scream or pass lawsuits. The people have spoken...TWICE...and it is clear what California believes in.
You just never cease do you.
Conneticut just legalised Gay marriage.
a quote from a very inspirational (bisexual) woman I know called Lofn.

In light of the current tragedy (when more than 1800 couples have the government end their marriages because of popular opinion concerning their genitals, I call it a damned tragedy), I want you to know that I thank you for your support in protecting marriage for all, and I urge you not to lose hope. We're still fighting. There is a petition going out to overturn the amendment, and according to a friend of mine, there are still votes to be counted, so we may still have a chance.

It may be discouraging, but don't let it crush you. Thank you for standing with us. We'll make it someday.

1800 people. Their union before God destroyed because of people like you that are close minded enough, to deny them the rights that they once had. Can you even have the grace to imagine how that feels to them?


For those of you who wish to leave California because of this...I guess Massachusetts is the only option, because the other states are only stronger against gay marriages than California. :p

-cough- Conneticut.


For those of you who commented on my kids (or future kids), I can only say that I intend to be a loving, caring, compassionate parent, who will teach her children right from wrong and wrong from right, who will try to instill in them good moral values, respect for others, and most importantly, I will try my best to raise them up as strong Believers in God Almighty.
Discrimination is wrong- thats what proposition 8 is. and you just voted yes. Way to be a hipocrite.

I intend to make it clear to my children that life is not a fantasy or storybook. In life, we do NOT always get everything we want. In life, we do not always get to have what we want, be with whom we want, or live in a situation that we want. It does not only apply to this issue. Life is not a fantasy. Reality is different from what we imagine, and for those of us who are young, we realize it quickly once we get married and start living as responsible adults in the real world, with all burdens of life on our shoulders. Everything in life is not possible, and everything in life is not acceptable.

Not everybody wants to get married. You say it like its something that has to happen otherwise the world will end because someone hasnt made a union. Now people want to get married, and you turn around and tell them oh no you cant do that its unnatural. So are spectacles, alot of modern medicines, plastic... yet we still use those day to day. for the procreation arguement, If everybody in the world was heterosexual and procreated, the population would explode to the point of resources stretching over their limit, no one would have enough and the whole world would be screwed.


Imagine if someone falls in love with another person, and loves that person to the point that he/she cannot imagine life without him/her. Now get this. The person who she considers the 'love of her life'...the person she dreams of, the person she wants to commit to is already married. Can she marry him? NO! Can she be with him? No. Can she live the rest of her life with him? No. Why? Because it isn't going to happen. Somethings are wrong, and we need to learn to accept that. Sometimes marrying the person you 'love' isn't the right choice. Sometimes people destroy their lives by marrying the person they fell in love with, and married JUST because they loved that person. Love, while a serious factor in marriage, is NOT the only bases of a union.
Sexuality & monogamy are different things Ma'am.


I am a person who is strongly against discrimination in any form.

you clearly arent though. your discriminating against couples and people based on whats in their pants or whos in their bed.



I cannot tolerate people who discriminate against people who are black because they are black, nor can I stand people who discriminate against whites because they are white. I cannot stand people who differentiate between the rich and poor. I am not an advocate of discrimination...nor is anyone else who voted yes to prop 8. I just don't believe ANYONE is supposed to marry the same sex. People who call themselves gay CAN marry. No one is preventing them from finding the love of their life in the opposite gender. If they have the right body parts (male or female), then they can marry people of the opposite sex, just like everyone else does. Like I have said before, and I know I will make some of you laugh by saying this, but you cannot make a computer work by plugging its plug into a plug. It just won't work. Try as hard as you might...that computer of your's will never turn on, will never function, will never help you in any way. Now get an outlet for the plug, and the computer will be functioning great in no time. ;)

Good grief what on earth are you on! 'No one is stopping them from finding the love of their life in the opposite sex'.
Let me go back to basics for you.

Heterosexual: Romantically, Sexually, emotionally attracted to the opposite gender.
Homosexual: Romantically, Sexually, Emotionally attracted to the same Gender.
Bisexual: Romantically, Sexually, Emotionally attracted to both the same and opposite gender.

What you said is very Insulting. Homosexuals do not love the opposite gender in that way. Heterosexuals do not love the same gender in that way.




Men and women are like that. They are made to 'fit' into each other. That's the way our bodies are made, and that includes the bodies of people who call themselves gay. The action that men and women do together is impossible for people of the same sex to do together. This is why I say it is unnatural. It is. If it wasn't, then they would fit into each other perfectly, just like a man and a woman, but they don't...and a FACT: they never will. When a man and woman are married and have a child together, that child is a part of both of them. That child is made out of a part of his father, and a part of his mother. The development of a child is very, very beautiful. It is impossible for any 'gay couple' to have a child of their own, together, a child that is a part of both of them. Truly, it is impossible. If they get a sperm donor, the daddy is an unknown, and the other partner has nothing to do with the child. They can never have a child of their OWN.

Infertile couples can never have a child of their own either. Does that mean that they should not be allowed to marry? and how many children do you think there are in america and the world at whole that dont know who their father is?



There is a purpose of two genders. There is a purpose of a mother and a father. Kids need both, and while some children in certain situations don't get to live with both, the ideal situation is that a child has both mom and dad. Moms and dads are not exactly the same. Now don't even try to tell me we're in the 21st century, and there's no difference in a mom and a dad in this day and age. There is. Find me one father who can successfully nurse his newborn, and then tell me you found one that's the same. They are not the same. Without insemenation, there can be no baby. Without a womb, there can be no baby. Love makes babies..and babies are born in families, into marriages. Besides, right now, in the 21st century, gay marriage is illegal in almost every country in the world. This includes our own. That should tell you something. Most human beings that exist in the 21st century, believe and KNOW that marriage is only between a man and a woman. Its that simple.
I was raised the majority without my father. I'm fine. Im not the only one either.
No, sex makes babies. You seem to be under the impression that without marriage none of this can happen, which either demonstrates that you didnt pay attention in sex education class or are under some kind of ignorance that most people would die for. Did you know america has some of the highest teenage pregnancies in the world?
Im not even going to go into the divorce rate.


I don't deny that people can have feelings for each other, nor do I judge people for having feelings of affection for other human beings. I don't, and never had a problem with people of the same gender holding hands, or giving each other little kisses (NOTE: I do not mean romantic/french kissing here). In fact, for me, it is completely normal to see guys, friends holding hands and walking. That isn't a 'gay' thing. That is just affection for someone you care about. The problem I have is when people ACT on their feelings in a lustful manner. The problem is when it becomes sexual. Sexual behavior is not always acceptable. Homosexuality comes in that category. So does incest...hence, my reasoning for comparing the two together. Both are immoral types of sexual behavior. Fight with me all you will....the majority of the world agrees with me on this. Your arguments won't make a difference.

homosexual.


Before I finish off typing and go to attend the soup cooking on my stove, I'd like to address Pickle's 'we have a creationist amongst us' comment. Oh wow...like everyone on PT is a non-believer. :rolleyes: I have been a member of PT for many, many years (my estimate is 6 years but I'm not sure), and know many religious people here, as well as people who are not that religious, but most definitely believe in God and the fact that He Created us. As far as I know, most, or a very large number of people on PT believe in God, and rightly so. I cannot imagine that things have changed here to the extent that everyone has changed their ways and beliefs. We did not all fall out of the sky. I'm not even going to get into that debate right now because you will end up getting lectured, and I'm not in the mood for that right now, but seriously...if you have a problem with people who believe in God, something is seriously wrong with you.

I have no problem with people that believe in God but the creationist arguement is flawed. You say things like Incest is wrong, but If every human came from adam and eve, then their children must have procreated, and so on. So if that was true, you're related to everyone. You cant marry because your related to everyone. Gay or Straight.


For those of you who say we are not God...who are we to judge? Absolutely. The whole reason we judge is because God has already judged. It is GOD who told us of the sin of sodomy, and it is GOD who told us about the nation of Prophet Lot and their sin of homosexuality. God's Word. God's judgement. Not mine. Not anyone else's. God's. If God created them that way, then God would not have spoken against them, but He did, which means, their actions are actions that anger God. Once again, I know we're not God. This is God's judgement, and I will stand by the side that God stands by. (And no, this is not only in the Bible, but in pretty much every religious book, in pretty much every main religion).

Sodomy was a sin in the 1500s. incase you hadnt noticed, its 2008. The bible preaches that god made and loves everyone. Besides the fact that there is no proof that God even exists, the bible is full of incorrect information. Do you eat pork or shellfish? Leviticus says that is an abomination to you.
The whole reason we judge is because we agree or disagree. I read the bible in my christian primary school, and pondered it until last year. I've come to the conclusion, that the holy books contradict themselves and are not to be listened to in my life. My opinion is, that instead of looking to the ceiling for answers I'll go find them myself.
If there is a God (and to be honest, I doubt it) I, and the thousands of other LGBT people will answer for ourselves regarding who we love. I dont need a book to explain my actions- I just need a book to write them in for future reference.




Oh and for your and like minded peoples information-
Obama disagrees with proposition 8, calling it discriminatory.

[Daisy and Delilah]

Very good post, Candace.

I know many gay people. I can assure anybody that these people were born the way they are. I'm not speaking of those that wish to "experiment" just to see what it's like.

PCB, in all due respect for you and your beliefs. Which, I might add, I'm not trying to change. I really think you might be deceiving yourself to think you can have such complete control over your future children. I really don't believe this to be true. Unless you plan to try brainwashing techniques, you should maybe prepare yourself for what could happen.

I am really confused about some of your comments. You aren't judgemental but here in this thread, you are being judgemental. Some of your remarks are contradicting as well.

It's none of my business what people do behind closed doors or otherwise. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I get really concerned when people that love each other, no matter what their color, creed, or sexual preference, are excluded from living like the so called "normal" people live. They may be gross and disgusting to you, but, it's not your business to critique them, and they are human beings just like you are.

This perfect world that you have in your sights may turn out to dissapoint you.

I also voted "no" on our Florida amendment. I'm very sad that it was voted in. We need to band together in this country for the good of all of us. Not segregate people even more.

[caseysmom]

Very good post, Candace.

I know many gay people. I can assure anybody that these people were born the way they are. I'm not speaking of those that wish to "experiment" just to see what it's like.

PCB, in all due respect for you and your beliefs. Which, I might add, I'm not trying to change. I really think you might be deceiving yourself to think you can have such complete control over your future children. I really don't believe this to be true. Unless you plan to try brainwashing techniques, you should maybe prepare yourself for what could happen.

I am really confused about some of your comments. You aren't judgemental but here in this thread, you are being judgemental. Some of your remarks are contradicting as well.

It's none of my business what people do behind closed doors or otherwise. I try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. I get really concerned when people that love each other, no matter what their color, creed, or sexual preference, are excluded from living like the so called "normal" people live. They may be gross and disgusting to you, but, it's not your business to critique them, and they are human beings just like you are.

This perfect world that you have in your sights may turn out to dissapoint you.

I also voted "no" on our Florida amendment. I'm very sad that it was voted in. We need to band together in this country for the good of all of us. Not segregate people even more.


Wonderfully said, my thoughts exactly.

[beeniesmom]

PCB, From your post I am understanding that you obviously didn't get to choose your husband. I am sorry about that and the fact that you think you can't be with the one you really love. Personally, I think that's a lie. I just hope you don't choose your kids' husband or wife as your parents did for you. Also, you say you don't descriminate.... Can you spell Hypocrite?"

[popcornbird]

PCB, From your post I am understanding that you obviously didn't get to choose your husband. I am sorry about that and the fact that you think you can't be with the one you really love. Personally, I think that's a lie. I just hope you don't choose your kids' husband or wife as your parents did for you. Also, you say you don't descriminate.... Can you spell Hypocrite?"

I'm really busy today, and do not have time to respond to the other posts right now, but I had to respond to this post...because this post is the joke of the century!!! GOOD LORD!!!

I chose my husband, love my husband with all my heart, would give my life for my husband, and much, much more. Everyone who knows me knows that, and everyone who knows my husband knows that he adores me the same. I truly can't get over how ridiculous AND infuriating this post of your's was, and can't for the life of me understand what you derived it from. Sheesh.

I am furious that you dare speak about my husband and parents in the way that you did. God has blessed me with the best husband, the best parents, and tremendous love in my life, and neither my parents, nor my husband has ever forced me into anything I didn't want, and I am confident that they never will.

The bottom line is the majority of California, the majority of America, and the majority of the world agree with me. Gay marriages are illegal in most of the country, and in most of the world, and ALL of the propositions regarding this issue this elections have passed by the vote of the people. Even IF you believe in the gay lifestyle, there IS NOTHING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT. They have 'rights' in the state. No one is seperating them or commanding them to live away from each other. Why do they want marriage? Is this all about money? Inheritance and insurance benefits? I cannot see any other reason why they want to call it marriage so badly because there is no other special benefit that calling it marriage will give them.

As for me, I do not believe anyone is born gay and I never will. I do believe some people are born as intersexuals with both sexual organs or neither. Anyone who is born with a condition has no control over the way they are. No one has control over whether they have white skin or black, whether they will be tall or short, whether they will have blue eyes or brown. Anyone who is 'born' in a certain way carries no blame for how they are born. I do not believe anyone is born gay, and most people don't. There is no scientific evidence that there is a gay gene. Even if there were, the population of gays would die out, because gays cannot reproduce, and thus cannot pass the genes on to the next generation. We're all born the same, pure, innocent, beautiful, male or female. When you go to visit a new mom at the hospital, there are two balloon options. "IT'S A BOY!!!" or "IT'S A GIRL!!!" There isn't any, "IT'S A GAY!!!"

Kids don't 'turn out' to be gay. I've known several girls in high school who claimed that they just realized they're gay. Fast forward a few years, they are all now with MALE partners. So much for being gay. They're just confused. If they were truly born gay and had to be with a gay partner, then none of that would've changed. We all have control over where we put our hands, where we put our feet, where we turn our gaze to, where we give a listening ear, and where we put our sexual organs. The sexual actions we do are a choice we make. No one MAKES us do it. It IS a choice, nothing more.

I do not believe I will have ultimate control over my kids. No one does. I will have the duty to nurture and guide them. When kids grow up, they do what they want, and parents hope that they will stick to the guidance they gave them. I hope for the same.

Funny how you guys turn to personal offenses instead of addressing the issue at hand. I thought Americans respect majority vote. Isn't that what democracy is all about?

[Kfamr]

I truly can't get over how ridiculous AND infuriating this post of your's was, and can't for the life of me understand what you derived it from.



Now you know how I feel when reading some of the things you come up with. EESH. :eek:

[-Pickle-]

How do you know the rest of the world agree with you!
Or the majority of california!
How many young gay and lesbian people do you think cant vote because of the age restriction- you appear to have forgotten them all.

Yes, what we do is a choice. who we're attracted to isnt.
you can be presented with blue and pink, and like the pink better. You can say you like the blue better, but truly, you still like the blue better.

Why is it any of your business who does what behind their bedroom door anyway PCB?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/3735668.stm

Pull your head out of your bible and research before you preach.

Ignorance is bliss hm.

[sparks19]

Well for one thing....

I will use my SIL as an example. If she were to end up in the hospital in a coma or in surgery or whatever... her partner would not be allowed to be with her unless a "real" family member was there to allow it. but since my SIL's parents live 9 hours away that isn't always possible for them to be right there right away. But becasue my SIL and her partner aren't married her partner could not be with her until another family member were able to get there. And while they have a child... her partner gets no say in anything that happens to my SIL just because they can't get married. To me that is horrible.

At the very least grant them civil unions.

[Daisy and Delilah]

I don't have time right now for a detailed post but I have to say this......it sounds like you live a sheltered life, at least thinking you have no gay people around you.
I can tell, without a doubt, that you don't really know any gay people too well do you? Because you seem to assume alot and choose not to become familiar with gays and become educated, I can put little or no faith in what you say at all.
Your arrogance and lack of knowledge is astounding.

As far as Americans respecting majority vote. Doesn't that imply that I have to go along with someone just because it's their opinion and not mine? Why bother to have a choice on the ballot?

Please open your mind and heart to what people here are telling you. You speak of gays like some sort of monsters that decide to be weird. That's not even close to the truth. I can only beg you to become educated before you write any more hateful comments.

You still haven't answered the question directly. What will you do if one of your children is gay and comes out to you? What will you do? Will you stop loving he/she when this happens?
How would you feel if you or one of your relatives were in the position of the SIL sparks speaks about?

I really can't believe the audacity of some of your remarks. Incorrect assumptions and general statements without backup. All the gays I know would give you every chance in the world if you needed one. Please do the same for them.

So much for a short post..........your original post listed many uncalled for remarks. You basically invited rebuttal so please don't wonder where it's coming from.

[beeniesmom]

I'm really busy today, and do not have time to respond to the other posts right now, but I had to respond to this post...because this post is the joke of the century!!! GOOD LORD!!!

I agree that my post was the joke of the century. I just wanted to ruffle your feathers and make you feel what a lot of people here are feeling by reading your ridiculous posts.

We probably should just agree to disagree here because it's getting uglier.



Funny how you guys turn to personal offenses instead of addressing the issue at hand.

That is exactly what you did when you mentioned wierd and gross things done behind closed doors.

[JenBKR]

Pull your head out of your bible and research before you preach.


I just want to make it known that PCB is not Christian, she is Muslim, so she doesn't read the Bible. :)

I am a Christian and I support the gay/lesbian community. Jesus taught us to love our neighbors. I understand that you don't believe in God, and I respect that. But I do believe in Him, and I believe that He made you to be exactly who you are - and He loves you for it. :love:

[Kfamr]

I am a Christian and I support the gay/lesbian community.

KUDOS to you for that! :D

[lizbud]

I don't have time right now for a detailed post but I have to say this......it sounds like you live a sheltered life, at least thinking you have no gay people around you.
I can tell, without a doubt, that you don't really know any gay people too well do you? Because you seem to assume alot and choose not to become familiar with gays and become educated, I can put little or no faith in what you say at all.
Your arrogance and lack of knowledge is astounding.




D& D, I basically put her ideas down to her youth & inexperience in life.
I think PCB has a good heart, but is a product of her limited enviroment &
experiences.

[Lady's Human]

It amazes me how many people have missed one of the basic tenets of Christianity. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Whether you personally believe that it's a sin or not, there's no excuse for the hatred surrounding the issue.

[Daisy and Delilah]

D& D, I basically put her ideas down to her youth & inexperience in life.
I think PCB has a good heart, but is a product of her limited enviroment &
experiences.

Thanks Liz. I agree with you. I think she has a good heart too. I hope she will have the chance in her life to meet a more diversified people. It's my wish that she will learn more and more every day.

[popcornbird]

Hey everyone.

I really don't see the point in going into a long detailed post and continuing the argument on this issue anymore. I sat and thought about it, and can clearly see that there are two reasons why we disagree on this issue.

#1. You believe gays were born that way. I honestly don't believe that at all. This is my main reasoning for not considering it discrimination. I do not believe, at all, that God made them that way.

#2. I believe in my religion as the truth from God, and anything God has said in the Quran is a fact to me, not an opinion. I believe that God made us, and as the One Who made us, He knows what is best for us. He loves us, and it is because He loves us that He has given us rules and guidelines to follow in life. If He did not love us, He would not have sent Prophets to us. He would not have sent Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, peace be upon them all, with His Word to mankind. He would not have made Himself known to us. But He did...and He wants us to do what is best for us. When you do not believe in what I do, you will not see it in the same way...BUT...

at the same time, I know quite a bit about Christianity, have Bibles at home, and know that many of the teachings in the Bible are the same as those in the Quran. I believe that when any of us claim to believe in something, especially in a religion, if we truly believe in our hearts that it is the true revelation from God, we should believe in everything it says, whether it pleases us or not. I am not a hypocrite in anything that I said. I am a Muslim, and I follow every rule in my religion to the best that I can. That includes no adultery, no fornication, no homosexuality, no gambling, no usury, no alcohol, no pork, etc. So...you really need to think twice before you use that hypocrite word where it doesn't fit. It makes me sad when I see Christians claiming to believe in Christianity, but do not think twice about what they're doing or supporting, regardless of how great a sin it is in their very own book. I can't help but feel that people who claim to be something, but do not follow their own teachings, really don't BELIEVE in what they say at all.

I really believe in my religion, and I have thousands of reasons for that, from which I will never leave regardless of what life experiences throw at me. I know that God knows better than we do. Practicing my faith has only brought me happiness and joy in my life, and I know that if I stick to God's teachings, God will reward me after I have left this world, regardless of what people in this world will say.

Regarding my children, I did not answer because the question doesnt make sense. How do you suppose a 23 year old woman who doesn't yet have any kids will know from today, what she would react to something that most likely will never happen 20-25 years from now? I don't know. I don't believe my kids will ever be gay, because I do not believe anyone is born like that, AND, us Muslims learn disipline in a way that most people never learn, from the very beginning. We have the ability to stay away from sex before marriage. We have the ability to pray, 5 times every day to God, at the prescribed times, regardless of whether that means leaving class or work or stopping at the side of the highway to do so. We have the ability to go without food, water, and intimacy with our spouses, from sunrise until sunset, for an entire month, every year, in the month of Ramadan. All for the sake of making God pleased with us. That takes serious determination, and all 1.2 billion of us do that every single year. Our life is very diciplined. We do what God commands, and stay away from what God has forbidden, and most Muslims who are true to their faith stick to the criteria. Our children do the same. I go to a mosque where thousands of people attend, and I sometimes go even everyday. I have never heard of anyone from the mosque turning gay, and I'm pretty sure no one has issues with their kids because of that. Its all about environment. You don't turn gay if you have an environment where everyone is doing things to please God. You will always have this feeling that God is watching you, Satan is whispering to you, and you need to defeat Satan by not answering to his call. He's our enemy, and He was the enemy of the first human beings (Adam and Eve), and we believe that we have to be aware of him all the time.

As for caring about what people do in their bedrooms...sometimes you have to care for the sake of society. If everyone followed proper ettiquettes when it comes to 'the bedroom deed', we would have less unwanted children for society to worry about, less STD's, and healthier families. And THAT is what I would love to have in our society. THAT is why I voted yes. I feel that regardless of our individual beliefs, we NEED a better environment with strong families to create a stong society for the well being of our children. We do not have strong moral fibers in America when it comes to family life. Divorce rate here is higher than any other country. Its a fact when we say there is a problem here in the strength of families and the moral structure. I am not as ignorant as you think...I have travelled the world, and have seen different societies, and have seen the difference. For example, from my time in some Eurpoean countries, I got the feeling that moral values are still a little better in America than they are in Europe. I might be wrong, but that is the impression that I got. People are more ignorant when they haven't seen society, but I have seen the society in the East, and grew up in the West from the time I was born. I live in California and mingle with the people here, both Muslims and non-Muslims alike. And surprisingly, a great deal of my Christian friends agree with me on my stance...so I know I'm not alone.

I also realize most of you have a good heart, and I know that from the many years I've visted pet talk. So I too agree to disagree, because I guarantee you that if you come to visit me when I'm an 80 year old lady with a cane and white hair, I will still be telling you homosexuality, as well as other big sins, is wrong. :D

[Catty1]

PCB - as time goes along, if you have friends who are gay, or meet people who are, ask them about it being a choice.

You may have friends who are - but if they know your feelings on the subject, they may not say anything at all about it.

All I am suggesting is - educate yourself.:)

[Puckstop31]

It amazes me how many people have missed one of the basic tenets of Christianity. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

Whether you personally believe that it's a sin or not, there's no excuse for the hatred surrounding the issue.


+1 See my post in the "radio piece" thread.

[Karen]

I'm not sure if it made national news, but the Ban on Greyhound Racing passed in Massachusetts. The major media outlets only seemed to cover the "income tax ban" ballot measure, which was resoundingly defeated, but didn't mention the racing one, which was a close race.

[beeniesmom]

Yes, I am happy about that too (post#103)!

PCB, thank you for your post. You explained yourself in a very civil and educational way.
We will bring this up again when we are 80 year old women but for now... peace! :p

[JenBKR]

It makes me sad when I see Christians claiming to believe in Christianity, but do not think twice about what they're doing or supporting, regardless of how great a sin it is in their very own book. I can't help but feel that people who claim to be something, but do not follow their own teachings, really don't BELIEVE in what they say at all.


I wasn't going to respond, but I feel that I have to address this. Christians understand that the first testament is God's law, and the second is Man's law. This means that Jesus changed everything. His main point was to love everyone - as LH said, love the sinner, hate the sin. That is one of my favorite expressions, and one I try to remind myself of daily. We are ALL sinners. Every sin is equal, except not believing that Jesus is the Lord and Savior. Judging others is one of those sins. I respect your opinion, but supporting others and loving them for who they are does not make me less of a Christian. I AM following my own teachings by not judging and loving others.

[Cataholic]

I echo JenBKR's post. I love the preachiness of posts that espouse what their God says and doesn't say, and how it means someone else's belief must be wrong. Just makes no sense at all to me. And, to throw numbers into it, and talk in terms of the majority, all countries, all humans, etc., should advance an argument no further than the atrocities that went along with WWII. Many people thought Hitler was 'right', too.

I am thankful that I live in a society that is slowly changing its ways in terms of discrimination. I find it interesting that on a pet site, even in the DH, that the focus of this thread was on homosexuality rather than the horror the animals face at slaughter- both big issues on the California ballot. To think that some humans care more about what goes on in someone's bedroom than the horror of the slaughter/treatment of innocent animals is baffling.

If that is worshiping your God, no thanks. I will stick with my God.

[caseysmom]

I echo JenBKR's post. I love the preachiness of posts that espouse what their God says and doesn't say, and how it means someone else's belief must be wrong. Just makes no sense at all to me. And, to throw numbers into it, and talk in terms of the majority, all countries, all humans, etc., should advance an argument no further than the atrocities that went along with WWII. Many people thought Hitler was 'right', too.

I am thankful that I live in a society that is slowly changing its ways in terms of discrimination. I find it interesting that on a pet site, even in the DH, that the focus of this thread was on homosexuality rather than the horror the animals face at slaughter- both big issues on the California ballot. To think that some humans care more about what goes on in someone's bedroom than the horror of the slaughter/treatment of innocent animals is baffling.

If that is worshiping your God, no thanks. I will stick with my God.


I couldn't agree with you more and thank god prop 2 won by a large majority. But you would cringe if you drove around in my area a few days before the election it was scary and backward.

[GoldenRetrLuver]

This was the first election I was able to vote in. It was pretty exciting!
I was extremly happy to hear that Obama was elected and Proposition 2 passed. :D

------

And, I actually took the time to read each and every single post in this thread.
(I know, lazy Saturday. :p)

PCB, I have known you for years on Pet Talk and you have been a wonderful friend to me. I have also known your views towards homosexuals and everything that revolves around this topic.

And of course, you are entitled to your own opinions, as is everyone else.
OPINIONS.
Not blatant attacks.

I found most of your posts to be very, very hurtful. I could literally feel my heart sink to the pit of my stomach reading through some of your sentences.

I am not going to start anything up, nor do I want to.
But, in my short 19 years of life, I have come across many people.
Gay, Lesbian, Straight. All of it.
I was brought up by both of my parents and was taught from the very beginning to treat other people with complete respect, whether they were white, black, green, blue, yellow, gay, straight, bisexual.. whatever. You get the picture.

In MY opinion, no one has the right to tell other people who they can love, who they can marry, who they can raise children with. No one.

No proposition, no law, no individual, can say it is "wrong."

I will not turn this into a religious and/or personal debate, but I thought marriage was based around the general idea of wanting to live and share your own life with someone whom you deeply love, admire, and respect (and can actually tolerate, most of the time ;)). How gender plays a role in determining this, I will never be able to understand.

Agree to disagree, I suppose. :)


I echo JenBKR's post. I love the preachiness of posts that espouse what their God says and doesn't say, and how it means someone else's belief must be wrong. Just makes no sense at all to me. And, to throw numbers into it, and talk in terms of the majority, all countries, all humans, etc., should advance an argument no further than the atrocities that went along with WWII. Many people thought Hitler was 'right', too.

I completely and totally agree.

[lizbud]

I'm not sure if it made national news, but the Ban on Greyhound Racing passed in Massachusetts. The major media outlets only seemed to cover the "income tax ban" ballot measure, which was resoundingly defeated, but didn't mention the racing one, which was a close race.


I did see that the Greyhound Ban did win. They said it would take effect
in 2010, right? I found all state & national results on MSNBC, I think.:)