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Catty1
10-08-2008, 08:41 PM
Seeing part of a comment in the 'OJ is found guilty' thread made me think of a letter written by a neighbour of mine and sent to the editor in one of our local papers. He was commenting on a column written by Art Hanger - an MP in our federal government and chairman of the House of Commons Justice Committee - who some see as too right-wing. I'll let you make your own call.

The point I wish to make is in bold in my neighbour's letter. His letter follows Art's article.
************************************************** ******************************************
September 10, 2008

http://www.cochraneeagle.com/index.php?action=fullnews&id=4839

Arizona’s Sheriff Joe knows how to deal with criminals

“If you don’t want to do the time;
don’t do the crime”
To The Point By Art Hanger

Sheriff Joe Arpaio has made this slogan popular around Maricopa County, Arizona. Everyone knows Sheriff Joe means business.

I visited his “Tent City Jail” — a corral of tents set up under the blazing Arizona sun — last month and can say that Sheriff Joe hits the right note in his handling of the county’s trouble-makers. Oh sure, some of the prisoners grumble about the food, about not being able to smoke, or about the stark surroundings and swift discipline if they screw up. But the response is the same from Joe and all the county “keepers”: “If you don’t like it, don’t come back!”

Sheriff Joe presses his points to the voting public, noting first that his door is always open to them. He conducts tours (lots of interested visitors take pictures of his operation) and advises the taxpayer that he is saving them money while keeping their streets safe. To the potential trouble-maker, his marketing agenda is a simple but effective one.
The flashing “vacancy” sign on the guard tower is a constant reminder for all who drive by — day or night — that Sheriff Joe always has room at the “Inn”.

During our visit he talked about the political and special interest groups and civil liberty lawyers who have challenged his programs, but to no consequence. Joe keeps getting re-elected. People love him.
“None have been successful in shutting me down,” he muses, “because they know that I operate within the Constitution. I have defended my position in court and won. Every sheriff in the country could do what I’m doing if they wanted to but they’re not. They compromise.”

Driving along Durango Street on the south edge of Phoenix, it is not hard to spot Sheriff Joe’s domain, the Estrella Jail.

There is no question about his commitment to the taxpayers. He keeps his costs down and all the inmates know beyond a doubt that they will not be treated any better than the soldiers who defend their country.

In fact, in the public waiting room of Estrella Jail, a very visible sign drives home his point: “The next time you want to complain about Tent City, STOP! Instead, think about how hard life is for our soldiers in Iraq.” With this statement are four pictures of U.S. soldiers living in the very harsh battle grounds of Iraq. A picture is worth a thousand words!

So what do the liberal thinkers have to complain about? The basics, of course: food, clothing, shelter and health care. Joe’s lunch menu consists of bologna sandwiches. Inmates wear pink underwear with black and white striped uniforms. The criminals are reminded of who is in charge in this establishment and the do-gooders on the outside resent his control.

Accommodations are basic but plentiful. Estrella Jail consists of army tents and cots. Health care is pay-as-you-go with a user fee to see the doctor, thus eliminating unnecessary visits. You work eight hours a day if you choose, or you can be locked up around the clock.

No question that the basic needs are met and the taxpayers of Maricopa County are proud of Sheriff Joe’s accomplishments.

My visit was an experience. The offenders know where they stand at all times. The rules are firm and consistent. None are considered part of a social class of abused or downtrodden victims. They have broken the law and are now paying a price for their crimes.

To me, Estrella Jail focused on responsibility and accountability for one’s actions.

Do you think the jails in our country reflect these same values? Should we be making some dramatic changes? I value your opinion, so e-mail [email protected].
Art Hanger is the Member of Parliament for Calgary Northeast and the chairman of the House of Commons Justice Committee

Copyright © 2008 Cochrane Eagle.


September 24, 2008


http://www.cochraneeagle.com/index.php?action=fullnews&id=4913

Did Arizona’s Sheriff Joe really inform MP Hanger?

Dear Editor:

Re: “Arizona’s Sheriff Joe knows how to deal with criminals”, by Conservative MP Art Hanger in the Sept. 10 Cochrane Eagle.

Calgary MP and Commons Justice Committee Chairman Art Hanger’s choice of Arizona Sheriff Joe Arpaio as a hero is unfortunate. Also unfortunate is his praise for the Maricopa County jail system that the sheriff administers.

Critics of the Maricopa County jail system consider it to be inhumane and cite harsh conditions, including inadequate food and shelter, inadequate medical care, overcrowding, unsafe conditions, and instances of excessive use of force.

Mr. Hanger visited the sheriff’s “Tent City Jail.” Describing it as “a corral of tents set up under the blazing Arizona Sun,” he figures that the sheriff “hits the right note in handling the county’s trouble-makers.”
Surplus army tents are an economical way to warehouse 20 or 25 inmates at a time. Under the blazing Arizona sun, however, temperatures inside these tents have reportedly reached 150 F at the level of the top bunks. That is over 65 C.

This is as warm as the inside of a closed automobile on a hot day. Dogs can die if left in this type of environment for a few hours. Is it really okay for human beings to be imprisoned in these conditions?
Mr. Hanger seems impressed with the jail system’s health care which he describes as “pay-as-you-go with a user fee to see the doctor, thus eliminating unnecessary visits.”

The health care system was described in darker terms in May of this year in an article by Mary K. Reinhart in the East Valley Tribune. She wrote:
“More than 60 Maricopa County jail inmates have died since 2004, many from illnesses that would be treatable in normal medical settings. . . . Since 2004, the dead include two newborns and a 17-year-old boy who writhed in pain for six hours before he was seen by medical staff. . . . Juries have ruled in case after case that the county was at fault. The county has settled other cases to avoid trial and still more cases are in litigation. Taxpayers have paid out more than $30 million in settlements, verdicts and attorneys’ fees since 1993” — the year Joe Arpaio became sheriff.

I’ll bet that Sheriff Joe didn’t mention this to Mr. Hanger, or that a respected physician terminated his services to the Correctional Health Service earlier this year because the health care being delivered did not meet constitutional minimums.

Is this what is to be expected from “pay-as-you-go with a user fee” health care?

Mr. Hanger has written that, to the potential troublemaker, Sheriff Arpaio’s marketing agenda is a “simple but effective one,” and that the sheriff “knows how to deal with criminals.”

Is this really accurate?

In an apparent attempt to determine if his approach to incarceration was reducing recidivism rates (the extent to which released inmates commit other offences), Sheriff Arpaio commissioned researchers at Arizona State University to conduct a study. The researchers did so and concluded that the sheriff’s methods had no significant effect on recidivism.

I doubt that the sheriff mentioned this study to Mr. Hanger.
The results of the sheriff’s study are supported by information contained on the Public Safety Canada website. A research summary on that website states that “. . . harsher criminal justice sanctions had no deterrent effect on recidivism. On the contrary, punishment produced a slight (three per cent) increase in recidivism.”
Mr. Hanger has written regarding the jail that, “Accommodations are basic but plentiful,” and “no question that the basic needs are met . . .”
The jail system provides inmates two meals per day. According to the sheriff’s website, meals cost the jail 15 cents each. Is a 15-cent meal really “plentiful”?

Here is some of what the American Civil Liberties Union had to say in August of this year about accommodations in Sheriff Joe’s jails:
“Pre-trial detainees at Maricopa County Jail are regularly given moldy bread, rotten fruit and other contaminated food. Detainees with serious medical, mental health and dental needs receive inadequate care, and they are routinely denied beds or bunks at intake, forcing them to sleep on the floor. Additionally, severe overcrowding in three of the jail’s facilities has created extremely dangerous environments by significantly increasing the potential for violence among inmates.”

I’ll bet Sheriff Joe didn’t tell Mr. Hanger about this either.

Mr. Hanger has also indicated that,
“. . . taxpayers of Maricopa County are proud of Sheriff Joe’s accomplishments.” On this point Mr. Hanger is correct. The sheriff is very popular.

However, the sheriff is not without his critics. Those critics include Amnesty International, the American Civil Liberties Union, the American Jewish Committee, the Arizona Ecumenical Council, a newspaper called the Phoenix New Times, and the mayor of Phoenix, Arizona.

Not all of the sheriff’s critics are focused on the county jail system. Much attention is being paid to the sheriff’s “immigration sweeps.” These sweeps are an attempt to apprehend illegal aliens. They prompted the mayor of Phoenix to write the U.S. Attorney General earlier this year to request that the FBI investigate Sheriff Joe Arpaio based on his “pattern and practice of conduct that includes discriminatory harassment, improper stops, searches and arrests.”
It may be that Sheriff Joe’s use of questionable tactics extends beyond the operation of the jail.

Mr. Hanger refers, perhaps sarcastically, to the critics of the Maricopa jail system as “liberal thinkers” and “do-gooders.” They may be both those things but that doesn’t necessarily make them wrong.
Come to think of it, the most notable liberal thinker and do-gooder in history was Jesus Christ. And didn’t he have some issues with a harsh penal system? People still remember that he was imprisoned and then tortured to death. Go figure!

There’s a whole lot of room for improvement in our prison system. For example, I would like to see prisoners required to work to help pay for the cost of feeding and housing them. Everyone else has to work to live, why shouldn’t they?

What we have to remember when making changes to the jail systems though, is that most inmates will eventually be released back into society. If they have been properly rehabilitated they will become assets to our society. If they have not, they will continue to pose problems and cost society more money and grief.

Mr. Hanger, at the end of his article on the Maricopa Jail system, asked for input from readers relative to changes that should be made to Canadian prisons. In one way this is great. We, as taxpayers, pay for the prison system; we should therefore have a say in how it is run.
Looked at in another way, an elected official asking for tips from the general public on how to improve a prison system is sort of like a farmer asking his bank manager how to heal his sick pig. The farmer should be asking a veterinarian.

Mr. Hanger should, perhaps, be asking criminologists, psychologists and other experts in the field of human behaviour how we can design a penal system that does a better job of putting inmates back on the straight and narrow, with the least effort and the least cost to us, as taxpayers.

We have to incarcerate certain types of offenders. Some of them should be locked away for life. Once we incarcerate them, however, we as responsible men and women, have a moral responsibility to set an example and provide humane prison conditions.
Sheriff Joe Arpaio, in my opinion, does not do this.
T.G. Storey

RICHARD
10-08-2008, 09:02 PM
Arpaio and his comparing troops to convicts is stupid and not even funny.

Soldiers and criminals do have a choice as to where they end up- but that's about it.

The Hanging Sheriff has always been a pompous, smarmy attention seeking public figure.

I do agree with not giving some criminals the luxury of benefits that some common citizens can't even afford. But, his denial of even the most basic medical care to inmate at his tent jail is really inhumane.

I don't agree with the ACLU and all the other idiot groups that are challenging Arpaio and his handling of his charges, but think of what 30 million dollars could have been spent on to prevent any other lawsuits from being lost by the county where the jail is located.

Yep the taxpayers are happy with the way he runs his jails, until little Joey, Hubby Tom or Uncle Chuck end up there for some low level crime.

Then, the place becomes a horror of horrors-a place where NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO STAY.

moosmom
10-10-2008, 01:02 PM
Don't do the crime you can't do the time. That's how I see it. And RICHARD you're right, criminals DO have a choice. I get so ticked off when prisoners, who HAD a choice on whether to commit a crime, complain about the prison conditions. 3 squares a day, unlimited use of a law library, paid dental care, paid medical care...what in the hell is there to complain about?? There are homeless people on the street going without who deserve such conditions!!! Hey, it ain't the Howard Johnson and you're not there on a vacation. You COMMITED A CRIME. Hellllooooooo!!!!!

Catty1
10-10-2008, 01:38 PM
Donna - did you read everything that was written here? I pasted this here again:


most inmates will eventually be released back into society. If they have been properly rehabilitated they will become assets to our society. If they have not, they will continue to pose problems and cost society more money and grief.

Mr. Hanger, at the end of his article on the Maricopa Jail system, asked for input from readers relative to changes that should be made to Canadian prisons. In one way this is great. We, as taxpayers, pay for the prison system; we should therefore have a say in how it is run.
Looked at in another way, an elected official asking for tips from the general public on how to improve a prison system is sort of like a farmer asking his bank manager how to heal his sick pig. The farmer should be asking a veterinarian.

Mr. Hanger should, perhaps, be asking criminologists, psychologists and other experts in the field of human behaviour how we can design a penal system that does a better job of putting inmates back on the straight and narrow, with the least effort and the least cost to us, as taxpayers.

We have to incarcerate certain types of offenders. Some of them should be locked away for life. Once we incarcerate them, however, we as responsible men and women, have a moral responsibility to set an example and provide humane prison conditions.

And from RICHARD'S post:

I do agree with not giving some criminals the luxury of benefits that some common citizens can't even afford. But, his denial of even the most basic medical care to inmate at his tent jail is really inhumane.

I don't agree with the ACLU and all the other idiot groups that are challenging Arpaio and his handling of his charges, but think of what 30 million dollars could have been spent on to prevent any other lawsuits from being lost by the county where the jail is located.

Yep the taxpayers are happy with the way he runs his jails, until little Joey, Hubby Tom or Uncle Chuck end up there for some low level crime.

Then, the place becomes a horror of horrors-a place where NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO STAY.

Do you mean, Donna, that even the low-level offenders should be treated like scum? If we do that, and most of them are back on the street one day (which happens), we will have directly contributed to having a great increase in the number of scummy people on the street.

There ARE offenders who are owed no favours or special treatment. This is made clear by both the original writer of the letter, and by R's post. There are MANY exceptions, however - and our attitude towards them says much more about us than it does about them.

They cannot all be painted with one brush.

moosmom
10-10-2008, 02:00 PM
Catty1,

I'm talking about hardened, career criminals not people who j-walk or have overdue parking tickets.

Catty1
10-10-2008, 03:00 PM
Well...jaywalkers and folks with overdue tickets usually don't do time. ;) There are others that do, and will be back on the streets - they aren't "hardened". Not everyone in jail is - that was my point, and that of others.

sparks19
10-10-2008, 04:29 PM
I don't know... I don't think that just because you commit a low level crime you should get a cushy room at the ritz. You commited a crime. There would be no point to jail if it was pleasant.

They can go through therapy to be rehabilitated but i do not believe that they should get any kind of special treatment in prison. I mean... what is there to deter them from committing a crime again if jail is a walk in the park?

Catty1
10-10-2008, 05:25 PM
The original column and responding letter did not say jail should be cushy...but that it should NOT be where the Maricopa Jail is.

Reread the letter to the editor in the first post, and look closely at the conditions there. Tent temperatures high enough to kill a dog? Rotting food?


a respected physician terminated his services to the Correctional Health Service earlier this year because the health care being delivered did not meet constitutional minimums.


Sheriff Arpaio commissioned researchers at Arizona State University to conduct a study. The researchers did so and concluded that the sheriff’s methods had no significant effect on recidivism...The results of the sheriff’s study are supported by information contained on the Public Safety Canada website. A research summary on that website states that “. . . harsher criminal justice sanctions had no deterrent effect on recidivism. On the contrary, punishment produced a slight (three per cent) increase in recidivism.”


I wonder if anyone so far has read the ENTIRE column and the ENTIRE reply. Harsh and inhumane punishment does NOT work.

lizbud
10-10-2008, 05:28 PM
I've always liked Sheriff Joe's way of running his jail.

shepgirl
10-10-2008, 08:12 PM
I read that article before and I also like the way he runs the jail. Jails today are more like a Spa . 3 great meals a day, libraries, time out for exercise, etc. Come on, these people are in jail for wrong doing, low level or not. I'll vote for that anytime. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Bet when these guys get out of there they will think twice about doing something that will send them back.
We have people trying to set up a similar program for people on welfare who could be out working. To collect their cheques they are assigned jobs in the community, keeping the ditches and streets clean, helping the elderly, driving people to and from appts. , etc. Community work is always plentiful, this would help some people see how our tax dollars are spent. So much crying over this I don't know if it will be given a fair chance.

sparks19
10-10-2008, 08:21 PM
I read that article before and I also like the way he runs the jail. Jails today are more like a Spa . 3 great meals a day, libraries, time out for exercise, etc. Come on, these people are in jail for wrong doing, low level or not. I'll vote for that anytime. If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Bet when these guys get out of there they will think twice about doing something that will send them back.
We have people trying to set up a similar program for people on welfare who could be out working. To collect their cheques they are assigned jobs in the community, keeping the ditches and streets clean, helping the elderly, driving people to and from appts. , etc. Community work is always plentiful, this would help some people see how our tax dollars are spent. So much crying over this I don't know if it will be given a fair chance.

Oh I LOVE this idea. if they can't FIND paying jobs then they will be giving community service jobs since the community are the ones that are technically paying their way.

critter crazy
10-10-2008, 09:18 PM
Prisoners should be treated like the scum that they are. I Love Sherriff Joe and the way he runs things. Hands Down!:)

blue
10-10-2008, 09:22 PM
If the prisoners dont like the heat Im sure we can fence in a couple a thousand acres as a private prison and let them loose up here.

Catty1
10-10-2008, 11:39 PM
Just curious - has anyone here had a friend or relative they liked wind up in jail?

Lady's Human
10-10-2008, 11:43 PM
Blue, they wouldn't have to worry about food rotting, either, but I'd be more partial to the back 40 of Ft Drum, NY.

Hotter than hell in the summer, and long stretches of sub zero weather in the winter....and not much in between.

blue
10-10-2008, 11:52 PM
Just curious - has anyone here had a friend or relative they liked wind up in jail?

Ive worked with people I grew to like who spent 2-20 years in jail.

I also worked with a convicted pedophile I would have rather killed then work with him.

jennielynn1970
10-11-2008, 01:52 AM
I've had friends and relatives who have ended up in jail. Some in county prisons, one, who was a boyfriend at one point (before the prison term) that I know of who was in federal. I actually found out about him being in prison by Googling his name. He had a tendency to go off the map for long periods of time, and it must have been 2002 or 2003 when it had been too long that I hadn't heard from him.

Turns out he somehow got into a counterfeiting operation, and had gotten caught with a gun that had the serial number filed off (this was in Philadeplia). I was absolutely shocked. This was a guy I had known for about 8 years at that point, and I never, ever thought he'd be involved in something like that. When we met we both did billing and collections for doctors and anesthesia. Where counterfeiting came into that, and illegal guns, I have no clue.

He ended up in federal prison, due to the illegal handgun (not the money), and I really don't know what happened to him in there, but I can imagine. He was tall, thin, not a very "masculine" guy, if you get my drift.

When I did confront him about the prison term, and all that had gone on, he did talk to me, and vowed he would never go back to federal prison. He was out on appeal.

The last time we talked he told me that the appeal was going well and everything should be fine. That was September of 2004. He killed himself a week later. I found out from his federally appointed attorney that he lost the appeal and was going to be going back to federal prison. They found him hanging from a tree the morning he was supposed to go back.

For him to do that, it still doesn't fit with the guy I knew. Just like what he did. That wasn't the guy I knew, loved and dated. :(

critter crazy
10-11-2008, 06:46 AM
Just curious - has anyone here had a friend or relative they liked wind up in jail?

Yup, and they all deserved, some even went back. If they had gone to sherrif Joes prison, i highly doubt that tehy would have returned. :)

critter crazy
10-11-2008, 06:47 AM
Blue, they wouldn't have to worry about food rotting, either, but I'd be more partial to the back 40 of Ft Drum, NY.

Hotter than hell in the summer, and long stretches of sub zero weather in the winter....and not much in between.

Dude, no kidding!! Everytime I went to Ft. Drum, no matter what time of the year, It ws always a miserable time!! We were there in August one year, and I froze my but off!!! LOL!! That would totally be a great spot for a Prison!:D

RICHARD
10-11-2008, 10:51 AM
Arpaio runs a jail-not a prison.

I can see tossing a short term criminal into the clink there, but he doesn't have the facilities to house longer termed-hardened crooks in a setting like that.

The shire reeve is one of those creepy PIP who do things at an extreme level and then crow about it. Pink underwear, striped shirts and the chain gangs are part of putting down the law in the town and nothing more than that.

If the taxpayers are OK with him losing 30 million dollars -almost 2 million dollars a year since he was put in charge of the county's inmates, so be it.
Two million dollars a year hires how many more cops?
A few squad cars?
Overtime?
Community policing programs?
Equipment?

They just award criminals and their families money from the taxpayers that could be put to better use. As it is, they pay for that AHs arrogance and rules.

Yes, they did commit crimes and should be punished accordingly, but why should they be given a chance to benenfit from it? Would it make anyone feel good to put a person in jail who had a few parking tickets that were not paid and have them die there, in a jail that's closer to hell than it is punishment?


--------------------

It's pretty much the same with the El Lay county sheriffs- Look up the name Lee Baca and the stats on how the jails, more conventional that Arpaio's, wererun and you'd see the corruption, the beatings and deaths that occured under his watch.

sparks19
10-11-2008, 11:13 AM
Nope... seems that my family are law abiding citizens. Imagine that.

And you know... I probably would feel sorry for them if a friend of family went to prison BUT... if they were truly guilty of their crime... they get what they deserve. It's JAIL. Generally I like to think that people are smart enough to understand that if they commit a crime they could go to jail. NO sympathy. they made their choice.

Catty1
10-11-2008, 11:54 AM
What I noted was what appeared to me here as black-and-white thinking.

There are "good guys" and "bad guys" and all the "bad guys" are scum and ALL of them should be in the worst jail possible.

critter crazy
Yup, and they all deserved, some even went back. If they had gone to sherrif Joes prison, i highly doubt that tehy would have returned.

And I doubt you read the whole article then. The evidence is there - Joe's jail, or any harsh punishment, does NOT stop the person from committing crimes and "going back there". Unless they kill themselves.

Jenn - very sad story. THANK YOU for showing there are "shades of grey" in these situations.

Otherwise, much of the thinking here seems to be that all people in jail are equally bad and deserve hell. Then they come out even meaner and hell-bent on revenge. Gee, can't figure THAT out! :rolleyes: And sparks19, where are they going to get rehab in a hellhole like that?

I don't care if a place has a workout room and good food. You still can't go anywhere you please. Your roommates and neighbours are chosen for you.

Even lose the good food and workout rooms - everyone has rights under the Constitution/Bill of Rights (Canada).

I'll bet poverty and tough economic times lead otherwise decent people to get into a situation out of desperation. Perhaps that was your friend, Jenn.

I haven't learned tons in life and have a long way to go - but part of being a formerly active addict meant that my thinking was all-or-nothing, black-and-white. Only as I slowly recovered did I come to realize that life is full of grey areas, and that there are few - if any - absolutes.

BTW - the fellow who wrote that letter to the editor? Former CNR cop of several decades. I agree with what he says - being a "do-gooder" is a good thing; nothing wrong with it at all.

shepgirl
10-11-2008, 03:20 PM
Lately it seems the prisoners have more rights than the law abiding citizens. I know this as factual since my cousin is head macho in the prison system. The things prisoners have access to is ridiculous, they are treated better than some of us.
Big deal if they can't go anywhere...lots of handicapped or sick people never get to go out either.
As for hard times and economic changes making people do things out of desperation, I won't buy into that one. You don't rely on blaming the system for your troubles, you get off your butt and fix things.
Bad enough we are supporting our prisoners in grand style, no need to add insult to injury.
I feel if you commit the deed you pay for it . Fair is fair. Just because you are short of money or lose a job doesn't give you the right to take it out on society by committing crimes.

sparks19
10-11-2008, 04:24 PM
Spin it how you want. I still don't think prisons should be like summer camp. and not everyone faces the same sentences. The differences between minimum security prisons and maximum security prisons are quite large. So if you rob a store unarmed it's unlikely you are going to end up in the maximum security prison.

I may see it black and white I suppose... but to me.. it pretty much is. You commit a crime, you are found guilty, you spend time in jail. Sorry if it doesn't prepare them to be model citizens because they don't get the finest foods or top of line work out equipment or sleep number beds and that they have to stay in a cell... apparently they weren't model citizens before. and many places have access to a prison psychiatrist. hence where they can get their rehab.

Each person makes a choice... I have made the choice to be law abiding ... therefore I don't end up in prison :)

critter crazy
10-11-2008, 04:50 PM
I may see things as black and white, but that is how I chose to see them. It is my right after all.

And yes I do feel that people who commit crimes are scum. They did not have to commit a crime, they chose to. There fore they lose their rights as a free citizen, and should be treated like the criminals they are.

Criminals should not have all the privledges that I have! they should not get to have a gym, or TV or anything else. If I had my way, they would be confined to a Very small cell, and have no access to the outside what so ever.

It it pretty sad that we are fighting over the rights of people who have Robbed, raped, mudered ect..... As far as I am concerned they have no rights. They should suffer just as the people whom they hurt, have suffered, if not more.

I dont care how rough life is, it is no excuse to break the law! I have had tons of hard times in my life. I have yet to break any laws! There is no excuse!! My husband and I both lost our jobs the same year, going from well over 150k a year to Nothing! We lived off of hotdogs and mac n cheese. But we managed to keep our home, feed and cloth our kids, and get jobs. Sure we still arent making what we used to, but who cares?? we are doing just fine. No laws needed to be broken. People need to just suck it up, and drive on!

Catty1
10-11-2008, 04:53 PM
You commit a crime, you are found guilty, you spend time in jail. Sorry if it doesn't prepare them to be model citizens because they don't get the finest foods or top of line work out equipment or sleep number beds and that they have to stay in a cell... apparently they weren't model citizens before. and many places have access to a prison psychiatrist. hence where they can get their rehab.

I largely agree here - no one is talking about model citizens, best food, great work equipment - again, that is a black or white description.

The original point was that Sheriff Joe's jail has no opportunity for rehab, or anything else. A baby died there...why? Because a piece of scum bore it?

A decent - not luxurious - prison has some basic medical care, and makes an attempt to see who can be rehabilitated and who can't. Sheriff Joe's place doesn't do that. A point RICHARD made is that some $30 million has been paid by Joe for fighting lawsuits etc. I don't know what moved him to set up a tent jail like that.

I just hope he isn't single, because that means many women friends of mine have a statistical chance of marrying him.

A lot of psychopaths wind up in prison...I wonder if they also run them?

http://www.yourlifeworks.ninemsn.com/article.aspx?id=373544

Industries which attract the office psychopath
Real estate, sales, security, advertising and finance but the biggest numbers are in the public sector such as teaching and health.

http://www.bookofjoe.com/2004/12/the_psychopath_.html


As [Robert] Hare put it in one interview, "If I couldn't study psychopaths in prison, I would go down to the Stock Exchange."


It's not only business, but fields such as politics, law, policing, religious organizations and news, that attract psychopaths. David Hogben, Vancouver Sun

shepgirl
10-11-2008, 07:28 PM
Oh I LOVE this idea. if they can't FIND paying jobs then they will be giving community service jobs since the community are the ones that are technically paying their way.

Our city loves the idea also. But guess who the loudest protesters are....you got it...the people on welfare. Those of course that have no reason to be on in the first place but know how to play the systwm so well they live better than most working people. Hard to give up a free handout to earn your own living after being supported by other hard working people.
The community is fighting hard to make this work but these people come up with the most awesome threats, like lawsuits because they are being threatened by being asked to do a few menial jobs. Some declare health issues but have no proof, they will sue because they can't sleep at night worrying about this....lol. It just never ends...

Catty1
10-11-2008, 07:39 PM
So...people on welfare are the same as those in jail?

I dated someone who went to prison for a short time. He had tasks, and earned $7 an hour to do them. These went towards paying off his fine, which shortened his jail stay. Good incentive to work. Minimum security.

Crime? Forgetting to renew his car insurance the year before, and he was nabbed when coming back from overseas through Canada customs.

Joe's jail would have been totally pointless.

Lady's Human
10-11-2008, 08:15 PM
Lack of car insurace isn't a jailable offense in the US, AFAIK, unless there are other issues involved.

Sheriff Joe's jail is a non-issue in that case.

Catty1
10-11-2008, 08:24 PM
LH - I just got the impression that if someone goes to jail, most here think it should be Sheriff Joe's kind of jail. I am purporting that it is not appropriate much of the time.

Bearing in mind that there are always exceptions to every rule, I think that humane conditions and helping people to achieve a second chance ought to be the rule in prison.

Lady's Human
10-11-2008, 08:40 PM
It should be. There are many crimes that shouldn't be jailable offenses, though.

Catlady711
10-11-2008, 09:53 PM
I had a cousin that got nabbed (I can't remember for what but it was serious) in FLA quite some time back. He got put on a chain gang cleaning up along the highways and other such manual labor. After he got out he made a point to never do anything like that again, and never did.

I think what most people think of as above and beyond 'humane' conditions for prisoners are what they are protesting. Prisons like this (found in Austria according to snopes) are just plain ridiculous. It's supposed to be a prison not a freaking resort!

http://www.snopes.com/photos/architecture/prison.asp

RICHARD
10-11-2008, 10:05 PM
Let's put this b&w issue into a more relative term.

Economy.

People are really hurting at the moment because they choose to live over their means at the moment.

I don't feel sorry for them. As a matter of fact THEY are the reason we are in this hole.........Poor judgement?

NOPE, the same stupidity that puts people into jail.

What jails or prisons give the inmates more than what we on the outside have?

TV? A gym? Food? Medical care?

They don't have cable and the movie channels. Most of us go to a doc that is covered by the insurance our employers have. We buy a year's worth of 24 Hour Fitness! They are served slop that the city/county buys for them.

We can leave our homes, jump into the car and get a few things off of the dollar menu of the local fast food joint, when we decide to forgo the manicure, hair cut or latte.

It's just the level of stupidity that steers our ship. It's all about dumb choices and paying the piper when they knock on the door.

-----------------------


And isn't it amazing when we hem and haw about a death penalty case comes up. Someone is put to death for killing another person - but we ignore the fact that this system puts to death an average of one person a month in the four years since 2004 -for nothing more that being a low level criminal?

Don't get me wrong-screw up and pay the price - and people do.

MSNBC runs a series on prisons and inmates.

Having caught a few episodes I can see that the basic needs they get while in the can are nothing that I can get for myself. I don't have to share a closet to live in, I can come and go as I please and I am not looking over my shoulder at all times.

If the arguement is that inmates have it better than people on the outside, the problem rests with the people who can improve their status, but do not.

shepgirl
10-12-2008, 02:03 PM
So...people on welfare are the same as those in jail?

I dated someone who went to prison for a short time. He had tasks, and earned $7 an hour to do them. These went towards paying off his fine, which shortened his jail stay. Good incentive to work. Minimum security.

Crime? Forgetting to renew his car insurance the year before, and he was nabbed when coming back from overseas through Canada customs.

Joe's jail would have been totally pointless.

Forgetting to renew your car insurance isn't a crime out here.

Some of the people on welfare here have committed fraud to collect welfare Catty...so yes, they should be doing jail time instead. Fraud is a crime punishable by law.
The reason they are not kicked off is because of some crooked lawyers, doctors who have no moral values, etc. Hard to bring these people to court when you know they have a list of charges they are willing to sue the legal system with if they are bothered.
We do have those that are truly in need of welfare and I am the first one to support this, not all are low lifes, not hard to weed them out and I would never dissalow them help knowing their true conditions.

jennielynn1970
10-13-2008, 11:38 PM
Forgetting to renew your car insurance isn't a crime out here.


No, but driving a car and not having insurance is. There's lots of people who do that.

In PA, if I don't renew my auto insurance, my insurance company will let the state know and I'll get a nice letter telling me to turn in my plate and not to drive my car. Same if my registration lapses, they'll let my auto insurance know. My auto insurance lapsed once, accidentally, and the hoops I had to jump through to get everything lined up again with the state was mind blowing. Will never goof on that one again!

shepgirl
10-14-2008, 08:44 AM
This is a crime here also but not one to land you in jail unless you keep repeating it. My insurance is one thing I would never dare forget to pay...an accident could be way more costly than the premium....

Twisterdog
10-17-2008, 10:08 PM
I believe people who are in prison should have basic human needs met. Healthy food, clean water, clothes, shelter, sanitation. I do not think it is right to subject an inmate to rotten food or lethal temperature extremes.

IMO, if we (as tax payers and voters) cannot treat another human being with basic survival rights, then are we not also commiting the crime of abuse and neglect? Does that not make us no better then the criminals we are in charge of incarcerating?

However, I do not believe prisoners should live in spa-like conditions. If prison offers one more comforts than one had on the outside, does that not remove a lot of the motivation to reform oneself?

Speaking for me personally, I believe in the death penalty. I believe that certain people who commit truly heinous crimes should be put to death. I do not believe that someone who tortured, raped and murdered dozens of people deserves to live.

jennielynn1970
10-17-2008, 10:29 PM
Our county jail here in Allentown, Lehigh County Prison, was rebuilt/remodeled a few years back. It's amazing looking from the outside. It also has a reputed gorgeous basketball court and workout area. I knew of guys who were friends of the workers in there who went in there to work out. Gotta love it.

shepgirl
10-18-2008, 10:01 AM
Our county jail here in Allentown, Lehigh County Prison, was rebuilt/remodeled a few years back. It's amazing looking from the outside. It also has a reputed gorgeous basketball court and workout area. I knew of guys who were friends of the workers in there who went in there to work out. Gotta love it.

Sounds just like the jails out here. Maybe if conditions weren't so luxurious there would be less crime. Some inmates who have finished their term actually don't want out since they know they won't get as much as they did inside these jails...they might have to actually work to earn a living and enjoy the luxuries...heaven forbid they should work to earn their own way.

RICHARD
10-19-2008, 12:31 PM
Here is an honest to god question about some of the posts on this thread.

What is so "luxurious" about living in a concrete box about 12x8 feet?
About having to shower with 10,20,30 people at a time?
About eating some shiat on a shingle that you have no control over?
Worrying about someone taking a sharp toothbrush and taking out -insert
body part here-?
About not being able to talk walk, go to the fridge at night or dressing up the way you want to, when you want to?
Next time you go to a gym think about having to share the equipment with some nasty inmate, or getting your head dented with a dumbbell?

If you think that living under those conditions is wonderful, People in the United States are far more well off than we want to admit.:eek::rolleyes::mad:

Edwina's Secretary
10-19-2008, 12:37 PM
Here is an honest to god question about some of the posts on this thread.

What is so "luxurious" about living in a concrete box about 12x8 feet?
About having to shower with 10,20,30 people at a time?
About eating some shiat on a shingle that you have no control over?
Worrying about someone taking a sharp toothbrush and taking out -insert
body part here-?
About not being able to talk walk, go to the fridge at night or dressing up the way you want to, when you want to?
Next time you go to a gym think about having to share the equipment with some nasty inmate, or getting your head dented with a dumbbell?

If you think that living under those conditions is wonderful, People in the United States are far more well off than we want to admit.:eek::rolleyes::mad:

I do agree with you on this RICHARD. I cannot help but wonder if they people yelling about the "luxurious" prisions have ever actually seen one? I have not and do not want to. But from what I have seen on news, etc. they sure don't look like someplace I'd commit a crime just to get into!

We often say that liberty is the most valuable thing there is. So, isn't depriving someone of their liberty the greatest punishment?

IRescue452
10-20-2008, 10:01 AM
What about self-defense crimes: involuntary manslaughter? Somebody comes at you with a chainsaw so you shoot them fatally. Are you really a horrible person deserving of this jail? You might be the most law abiding person in the world, a volunteer, an organ donor, have saved somebody from drowning type of model citizen, but you commited a crime so you get the same "don't do the crime if you can't to the time deal"?

What about last winter when I hit a patch of ice and spun head-on into a van? If I had killed the guy should I get these types of conditions?

What about the hypothetical man who steals the loaf of bread to feed his starving family. Desperation drives people to crime even though they aren't bad people. Put them in 165F conditions and feed them mold?

Teenagers who are caught with drugs? Do they need to learn to be citizens and find a job they can do and learn to budget and that kind of stuff to get them on the right track to living in society, or do we need to put them in these horrible conditions and teach them nothing but hate?

Twisterdog
10-20-2008, 10:38 AM
What about self-defense crimes: involuntary manslaughter? Somebody comes at you with a chainsaw so you shoot them fatally. Are you really a horrible person deserving of this jail? You might be the most law abiding person in the world, a volunteer, an organ donor, have saved somebody from drowning type of model citizen, but you commited a crime so you get the same "don't do the crime if you can't to the time deal"?

What about last winter when I hit a patch of ice and spun head-on into a van? If I had killed the guy should I get these types of conditions?

What about the hypothetical man who steals the loaf of bread to feed his starving family. Desperation drives people to crime even though they aren't bad people. Put them in 165F conditions and feed them mold?

Teenagers who are caught with drugs? Do they need to learn to be citizens and find a job they can do and learn to budget and that kind of stuff to get them on the right track to living in society, or do we need to put them in these horrible conditions and teach them nothing but hate?

I agree with this. I don't think self-defense should be a crime at all. In fact, I think you should get an award for shooting a chain-saw wielding psychopath who broke into your home. I don't think anyone should go to prison for an accident, like you described. I like to think our justice system is still functional enough to not allow that to happen. I think the man stealing bread for his family ought to be taught about the public aid available (food stamps) for such cases, and should be put into a job training program so he can learn a skill with which to support his family.

I also do not believe in throwing juveniles in jail for minor crimes such as vandalism, skipping school, drinking beer, smoking pot. I believe juveniles need to be sent to rehabilitation facilities where they are reformed, counseled and taught to be productive adults. I have, unfortunately, had a bit of experience with the juvenile justice system, having four teenagers. It does society not one ounce of good to put a "delinquent" teenager in jail until he turns eighteen, then let him out. Society needs to fix the problems these kids have, before they become much larger problems in adults.

But I have seen some pretty darn nice prisons on television. I can't remember the name of the program I was watching, but my husband and I both said, "Dang! That's an awfully nice 'cell' that murderer has ... nicer than the places we lived in college. That's and awfully nice gym ... I don't think we could afford a membership there. And he's getting a free master's degree, when I can't afford to go get mine. Hmmmm .... " Obviously all prisons aren't like this, but they do exist.