Unitarian church shootings

[smokey the elder]

The guy who shot at the congregation in the Unitarian church said it was because of their "liberal" views. Nice, huh?

[jazzcat]

I live in Knoxville. Such a sad and tragic thing to happen anywhere!:(

They are suppose to be analyzing that guy today to find out just how "crazy" he is. In my opinion you have be at a certain level of nuts to do something like that. Sounds like he had several issues going on. He's unemployeed and his food stamps were about to run out plus a neighbor says he talked to her last year about how he hated his parents for making him go to church (geez, he's 58) and how he thinks the Bible is contradictory.

[lvpets2002]

:( Yes so sad & tragic.. Just Horrible.. I just dont get people anymore.. :mad:

[Edwina's Secretary]

This tragic shooting and the fire burning by Yosemite -- started by someone target shooting.

Why are we so obsessed with guns?????

[smokey the elder]

What really blows my mind is that the Unitarian Universalists (at least the ones I've known) are about the most mellow,tolerant bunch I've seen; that's why they follow that particular path. They don't bother anybody. I feel so bad for those kids who had to see such a tragedy.

[Randi]

That's really sad. :( Why on earth was he allowed to have a gun to begin with!! Yes, I know that is a stupid question, as I just saw a programme about how easy it is for ANYONE to get a weapen in USA - this however, was about smuggling weapens to Mexico, and even legitimate gun shop owners were part of it! :rolleyes: :mad:

[jazzcat]

What really blows my mind is that the Unitarian Universalists (at least the ones I've known) are about the most mellow,tolerant bunch I've seen; that's why they follow that particular path. They don't bother anybody. I feel so bad for those kids who had to see such a tragedy.

I think that was the guy's problem, he felt they were too tolerant.

[lvpets2002]

:o Which goes for the True saying of :: The More I Get To Know Some People The More I Love Love My Animals & Cherish them Dearly..

[sparks19]

I don't care how crazy he is.

Lock his worthless a$$ up in jail. he won't need the food stamps in prison. he can get three squares a day.

A y es... blaming inanimate objects instead of the psycho people that do these things. let's just give him a pat on the back and send him on his way.

Lock him up... and throw away the key.

too bad prison farms are seen as "cruel and unusual punishment". Then he could work to earn his keep and would be providing a service to the community he wronged. there should be more of them

[jazzcat]

Actually we have the death penalty here in TN. On the local news I've heard them discussing the possible charges - they are waiting for the guy's mental evaluation. Also they are talking about this being a hate crime. He left a long letter in his car (he didn't expect to walk out alive) and if he specifically mentioned a group - gays, unitarians, something like that - then this could also be charged as a hate crime. I think the fact that he murdered two people is enough - put him away!

[jazzcat]

Yikes, I just watched the local evening news and learned that the nut job shooter is from my hometown. He lives here in Knoxville now - like me - but he grew up where I did, about 35 miles west of Knoxville. It's a small town and I don't know him but I'm sure my Dad knew his family. My parents owned an appliance store and knew almost everyone back then.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I don't see anyone here excusing him or blaming the instrument of death he used.

I just hope they will also catch the psycho who set Yosemite on fire -- target shooting. Same inanimate object. So unnecessary. Look him (or her) up as well and throw away the key.

[Lady's Human]

The guy could have done the same (or worse) by driivng a vehicle into the church. I don't see how the inanimate object used has anything to do with it.


Curious as to how they link the Yosemite fires to target shooting. I've been shooting hundreds of times, never set anything on fire.

[columbine]

too bad prison farms are seen as "cruel and unusual punishment". Then he could work to earn his keep and would be providing a service to the community he wronged. there should be more of them

They aren't viewed that way everywhere. One prison in New Hampshire that had fairly spacious grounds offered gardening as an option for prisoners who had behaved WELL. Not only did they prefer watering and weeding to staring at the TV, but the prison sold some of the vegetables and served some in the cafeteria, so they made AND saved money.

Work is good medicine, once a sick person figures out they want it. And fresh produce is always a good deal. But this guy sounds like the hospital should definitely be the first stop, or he'll just go around beating and strangling his fellow prisoners.

Love, Columbine

[Edwina's Secretary]

The guy could have done the same (or worse) by driivng a vehicle into the church. I don't see how the inanimate object used has anything to do with it.


Curious as to how they link the Yosemite fires to target shooting. I've been shooting hundreds of times, never set anything on fire.

Oh...that old chestnut about cars. See....cars have a purpose...transportation. Guns have a purpose...Killing. Real simple if you think about it...A by-product of many useful objects can be killing...knives, showers, rope, toys. Guns have only one purpose and one by-product.

But of course, you are, I am sure, more of an authority on what started the fire than those investigating it!

[Lady's Human]

Unlike you, Sara, I wasn't questioning whether or not it was started by target shooting (If someone who does something for a living states what they believe as fact, I tend to believe it, unlike you) I was questioning how they linked it to target shooting. Unlike some who take the MSM at face value, I'd like to see something a little more in depth before I take it as gospel.

The only thing in any of the reports about the yosemite fires I found on the web was a single sentence stating that they had traced the fire to target shooting. In the thousands of rounds I've sent downrange, and the millions of rounds I've been responsible for going downrange, the only fires I've ever seen started were from tracers, which are normally military use only.I've never seen a range fire started by Bubba with his shotgun.

[Suki Wingy]

yeesh that's a little scarey! Every single person I met in my old (Unitarian) church was pretty open and caring. That's pretty much the only thing they had in common, but still.

[jennielynn1970]

I think our culture is just gun obsessed. Heaven forbid you revoke the rights of the people to own as many of them as they want as well. That's just so "un-American". (that was sarcasm)

Too many guns in the hands of too many people who shouldn't hold anything sharper than pencil.

[Puckstop31]

Someday it would be nice if people would stop judging groups of people, or things, by the lowset common denominator. ALL people.

In the United States, we have a God given and 2nd Amendment confirmed right to Keep and Bear Arms. The reason for this is clearly defined by a vast majority of our founders. It is not about hunting, target shooting etc. It is about EVERY human's right to defend themSELVES from tryanny no matter what form it takes. Should this right be removed, we are no longer truly free. All our other rights are simply on 'loan'.

I pray daily that I will never need to use my firearms to protect myself and/or my family. Or worse, protect myself from tyranny of government. But if necessary I can and I WILL.

Further, for a great many people here, we just grew up in a culture where firearms were not 'taboo'. They were just another part of living. ANYthing that is sensationalized can be made to be seen "poorly". For a great many of us, it is just a part of who we are. Part of the American culture. Not that American culture is taught or revered anymore.

"Take away a peoples culture and they are easily persuaded."
Karl Marx

So, to the anti-gun folks out there... There are MANY gun control type laws out there. Why not enforce those, rather than make new and absurd ones. Or, why must you try to impose your will on us? I personally would want nothing of imposing my will on you.

"A people who are willing to give up a little bit of freedom for a little bit of security shall have nor deserve, either."
Benjamin Franklin.

[lady_zana]

In the United States, we have a God given and 2nd Amendment confirmed right to Keep and Bear Arms. The reason for this is clearly defined by a vast majority of our founders. It is not about hunting, target shooting etc. .

But one must consider that the founders of this nation were not envisioning a world like ours. I have no problem with someone owning a gun if they know how to use it, care for it, and keep it away from those who don't. It's these people with military issue weapons that bother me. The founders never meant for us to have machine guns in our houses.

[Puckstop31]

It's these people with military issue weapons that bother me. The founders never meant for us to have machine guns in our houses.

The primary arguement of the anti-gun types is that the 2nd Amendment is ONLY applicable to service in a militia. I could go into what a milita is, but that is not the point here. If that arguement was indeed true, then the founders DID intend for the people to possess military weapons.

I own military weapons, legally. Does that mean I bother you? A honest, law abiding citizen, well trained in their use?

Make all the gun laws you want. They never have and never will do squat to deter crime, because criminals by definition do not follow the law. A disarmed and defenceless citizenry are nothing but chattle.

[lady_zana]

The primary arguement of the anti-gun types is that the 2nd Amendment is ONLY applicable to service in a militia. I could go into what a milita is, but that is not the point here. If that arguement was indeed true, then the founders DID intend for the people to possess military weapons.

I own military weapons, legally. Does that mean I bother you? A honest, law abiding citizen, well trained in their use?

Make all the gun laws you want. They never have and never will do squat to deter crime, because criminals by definition do not follow the law. A disarmed and defenceless citizenry are nothing but chattle.

But their idea of a military weapon would have been vastly different from a 2008 idea of a military weapon because they could not have dreamed of the technology we have created.

I have a friend who is in the military. She has a couple small military issue handgun. I have no problem with that because she knows how to use them and how to keep people who don't from messing with them. What I have a problem with is the huge machine guns that people have in their house. I don't see any reason why someone would need something that looks like a rocket launcher in their home to defend themselves.

[Puckstop31]

But their idea of a military weapon would have been vastly different from a 2008 idea of a military weapon because they could not have dreamed of the technology we have created.

I have a friend who is in the military. She has a couple small military issue handgun. I have no problem with that because she knows how to use them and how to keep people who don't from messing with them. What I have a problem with is the huge machine guns that people have in their house. I don't see any reason why someone would need something that looks like a rocket launcher in their home to defend themselves.

I don't see how the technology improvements make a difference. The same arguement could be made all through history. "Sure, a musket is OK, but a RIFLED musket?" "Ok, a rifled musket is OK, but what about a lever action rifle" And so on and so forth. It should be about the paradigm of the day.

But, a little sensation much with the "HUGE machine gun" thing? How many people do you know with a 'huge machine gun' in their home. What do you define as a huge machine gun? Rocket launcher? Huh? Do you honestly know anybody who owns a 'machine gun'? BTW, the legal definition of a machine gun is a 'self loading weapon that will repeatedly fire while the trigger is depressed. I only know one person who has a license for such a thing. They are very difficult to obtain, as they should be.

[smokey the elder]

Getting back to the point...I don't want to argue the merits of the 2nd Amendment. There are valid points on both sides of the argument. The point is this is an example of man's inhumanity to man, and if the guy did not have a gun, and had so much hate, he'd use a bomb, a knife or a crossbow to kill people.:(

[sparks19]

Getting back to the point...I don't want to argue the merits of the 2nd Amendment. There are valid points on both sides of the argument. The point is this is an example of man's inhumanity to man, and if the guy did not have a gun, and had so much hate, he'd use a bomb, a knife or a crossbow to kill people.:(

Agreed.

it doesn't matter the means... what matters is that this HAPPENS at all. How can someone HATE so much that they would just take the lives of innocent people without blinking.

[Cataholic]

Getting back to the point...I don't want to argue the merits of the 2nd Amendment. There are valid points on both sides of the argument. The point is this is an example of man's inhumanity to man, and if the guy did not have a gun, and had so much hate, he'd use a bomb, a knife or a crossbow to kill people.:(

Ah...the second amendment. Kind of like a shield, then a weapon, all at the same time, depending on who is arguing the point.

I think that the problem IS man's inhumanity to man, and that includes my opinion that people that kill (leaving aside self defense, and perhaps a few other noted exceptions) are mentally unwell to begin with. So, imagine an honest, law-abiding, citizen, trained in weaponry (sic) going off the deep end. It happens. While guns might not be the problem, I don't see too much blunt instrument killing taking place. When is the last time we read about a mass knifing taking place? Or, a mass baseball bat event? Ten people killed with a broom....I guess it could happen, but, it seems that a gun is much more prevalent.

I AM concerned about my neighbor's "right" to carry a gun. His/her "right" has a way to irrevocably influence my family's life, to me, without a justifiable use. A handgun in the city? WhatEVER for?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Unlike you, Sara, I wasn't questioning whether or not it was started by target shooting (If someone who does something for a living states what they believe as fact, I tend to believe it, unlike you) I was questioning how they linked it to target shooting. Unlike some who take the MSM at face value, I'd like to see something a little more in depth before I take it as gospel.

The only thing in any of the reports about the yosemite fires I found on the web was a single sentence stating that they had traced the fire to target shooting. In the thousands of rounds I've sent downrange, and the millions of rounds I've been responsible for going downrange, the only fires I've ever seen started were from tracers, which are normally military use only.I've never seen a range fire started by Bubba with his shotgun.

I don't understand your first paragraph. (And I also don't think you are being truthful.) I believe the fire inspectors. You questioned it, I didn't. Perhaps, just perhaps, as I live in California, it is covered more extensively here?

How many rounds have you shot downhill in California, during high fire danger and during an epic drought? I live on the edge of Camp Pendleton and I can tell you there are frequent brush fires there from target practice.

So, if it had never happened to you, you don't believe it. If you have never seen it, it doesn't happen. Got it.

p.s. What is MSM????

[Puckstop31]

Ah...the second amendment. Kind of like a shield, then a weapon, all at the same time, depending on who is arguing the point.

I think that the problem IS man's inhumanity to man, and that includes my opinion that people that kill (leaving aside self defense, and perhaps a few other noted exceptions) are mentally unwell to begin with. So, imagine an honest, law-abiding, citizen, trained in weaponry (sic) going off the deep end. It happens. While guns might not be the problem, I don't see too much blunt instrument killing taking place. When is the last time we read about a mass knifing taking place? Or, a mass baseball bat event? Ten people killed with a broom....I guess it could happen, but, it seems that a gun is much more prevalent.

I cannot disagree about the problem being man's inhumanity to itself. We are a imperfect bunch and will always be that way. However, I refuse to believe that more than a very SMALL portion of us are the type who would commit thes unspeakable acts. Which brings me back to my point about judging entire groups based on the very small percentage of people who commit evil acts. I believe VERY strongly in the concept of individual liberty and responsibility. It is a free person's DUTY to strive to take care of themselves. If you place the responsibility for your well being into another's hand, well, you take a risk.

Read up on violence in the UK. They pretty much banned almost all firearms. So it turns to knives. Next, watch them ban knives. It turns to sticks and stones.

So why 'punish' the VASt majority of responsible people for the acts of a very, very few?


I AM concerned about my neighbor's "right" to carry a gun. His/her "right" has a way to irrevocably influence my family's life, to me, without a justifiable use. A handgun in the city? WhatEVER for?

Well, the chances of you being murdered by a person with a firearm are WAY, WAY lower than that of being killed by a drunk driver. Yet, I bet you don't fear my 'right' to drive.

I do understand the concept of hoplophobia, which you obviously have. It is the duty of me and my fellow responsible gun owners to behave in a manner which might help alleviate that fear. It is also too bad you very rarely hear about the c. 2.5 MILLION violent crimes that are prevented every year by a law abiding gun owner. A vast majority of those situations are defused with out even having to fire the weapon.

A handgun in the city? The only time I ever needed to use a weapon to protect myself was in a city. All I did was produce it and off he ran.

Finally, I love my family too much to put their safety into anyone's hands but my own. You are free to choose otherwise, but it would be wrong for YOU to make that choice for me.

[Grace]

p.s. What is MSM????

I do believe that is Main Stream Media.

[K9soul]

I tend to see points to both sides of the gun arguments.. But I think a lot of the problem lies in how much more violent and unstable people seem to be. I know some of it could be a case of we see it more because it's reported more, but it just seems to me there are a lot of people snapping and going on rampages these days compared to when I was younger. We could take squirt guns to school and no one would think anything of it. Now it can have serious repercussions.

This article I just saw tonight doesn't involve a gun but is just as shocking, if not more to me. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3896502

[sparks19]

I tend to see points to both sides of the gun arguments.. But I think a lot of the problem lies in how much more violent and unstable people seem to be. I know some of it could be a case of we see it more because it's reported more, but it just seems to me there are a lot of people snapping and going on rampages these days compared to when I was younger. We could take squirt guns to school and no one would think anything of it. Now it can have serious repercussions.

This article I just saw tonight doesn't involve a gun but is just as shocking, if not more to me. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=3896502

OMG :(

that is just ... disturbing.

What makes KIDS do things like that and over a girl?

I don't care how young they are they are very very sick and I hope they spend the rest of their lives confined.

WOW

[Lady's Human]

How many rounds have you shot downhill in California, during high fire danger and during an epic drought? I live on the edge of Camp Pendleton and I can tell you there are frequent brush fires there from target practice.

I don't do long distance reading comprehension instruction, Sara.

As I said in my other post, I have never seen target shooting start fires EXCEPT FOR TRACERS WHICH ARE NORMALLY MILITARY USE ONLY.

[Cataholic]

Well, the chances of you being murdered by a person with a firearm are WAY, WAY lower than that of being killed by a drunk driver. Yet, I bet you don't fear my 'right' to drive.


Actually, if you are drinking and getting behind the wheel of the car, I DO fear your "right" to drive. (Driving is actually a privilege in the US, and not a "right"). And, I take the necessary precautions in that fashion- I avoid the streets during what seems to be a high probability time for OVIs- holidays and weekend nights.

That example doesn't exactly fit with the topic much, anyhow. Many, if not most, of us require a car. That same thing can't be said of carrying a gun.



Finally, I love my family too much to put their safety into anyone's hands but my own. You are free to choose otherwise, but it would be wrong for YOU to make that choice for me.

What exactly happened in a city that caused you to need to pull your weapon? I can't imagine carrying a weapon with a child.

I love my family in a similar fashion, I can assure you, and feel the same way- I don't want YOU to make the choice for ME, either. It is an argument that works both ways.

[Puckstop31]

What exactly happened in a city that caused you to need to pull your weapon? I can't imagine carrying a weapon with a child.

It was about 12 years ago, when I lived in Florida. So this was before we had our child. Still, now that I have a child, it is even more important for me to be able to protect them.

As for not imagining carry a weapon with a child, that just proves you are a hoplophobe. Nothing wrong with that, but it just means you do not understand what it means to be a RESPONSIBLE gun owner. I was raised with them. From a very early age my father taught me that they are not toys and to respect them for what they are. I was taught how to SAFELY handle, operate and maintain them. I plan on doing the same with Hannah.

If you make them not a taboo thing, take away the curiosity... Perhaps if you educated yourself a little about firearms, you might be a little less apprehensive about them. I mean, it is the first thing I do when I don't understand somerthing, I try to educate myself about it first.


I love my family in a similar fashion, I can assure you, and feel the same way- I don't want YOU to make the choice for ME, either. It is an argument that works both ways.

Thats the thing. You DO have the CHOICE to not own a firearm. But I am pretty sure you would advocate to take away my choice, no, my RIGHT to own them. Now, my owning a firearm is in NO way a threat to you. Unless of course you ever posed a threat to me.

It is a shame that law abiding Americans cannot trust other law abiding Americans and assume good before evil.

"No free man should ever be denied the use of arms. If for no other reason than to defend himself from tyranny of government."
Thomas Jefferson

Finally, let me make one thing abundantly clear. I pray without ceasing that I will never have to use my weapons to protect myself or my family. But I will be damned before I put my and my families safety into anybody's hands but my own. That is not a matter of trust, as I know we have generally excellent law enforcement here. The issue is they are 99.9% likely to NOT be there at the moment I need them.

[Cataholic]

Why does not agreeing with someone mean I don't understand something? I am reasonably intelligent, and have an ability to comprehend- even if I don't support- someone's opinion.

I am a HUGE breastfeeding advocate. Does that mean everyone that doesn't support MY position is ignorant about the benefits of breastfeeding? That they are wrong, or, a bad parent if they don't follow a child-led approach to weaning? No, it means they don't support my position, that they feel differently.

I don't like guns (as much as one can affix a human emotion to an inanimate object). I don't agree with hunting, I don't agree with carrying a weapon, I don't agree with your interpretation of the 2nd amendment...that doesn't mean I don't understand, though.

[Puckstop31]

Why does not agreeing with someone mean I don't understand something? I am reasonably intelligent, and have an ability to comprehend- even if I don't support- someone's opinion.

I am a HUGE breastfeeding advocate. Does that mean everyone that doesn't support MY position is ignorant about the benefits of breastfeeding? That they are wrong, or, a bad parent if they don't follow a child-led approach to weaning? No, it means they don't support my position, that they feel differently.

I don't like guns (as much as one can affix a human emotion to an inanimate object). I don't agree with hunting, I don't agree with carrying a weapon, I don't agree with your interpretation of the 2nd amendment...that doesn't mean I don't understand, though.

Fair nuff'. I see your point. So, I suppose you do not have to agree with those things. Just understand that I am a HUGE advocate of the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. When you really research it, the intent of the Founders was and is crystal clear.

So, while it is perfectly fine for you to feel the way you do, the 2nd Amendment IS the law of the land. And, as the recent Supreme Court decision has said, it is a individual right. So, I would prefer if you not try to impose your will upon we law abiding gun owners. Just as I strive to live my life in a way where I do not impose my will on you.

Instead of gun control.... How about we focus on CRIMINAL control?

We could get into hunting and how controlled hunting is actually a good way to keep animal populations healthy... Or how hunting groups do more to preserve habitat and maintain healthy animal populations than PETA or the USHS could ever dream of... I am sure that is WAY outside of the scope of this discussion. :)

[Cataholic]

So, while it is perfectly fine for you to feel the way you do, the 2nd Amendment IS the law of the land. And, as the recent Supreme Court decision has said, it is a individual right. So, I would prefer if you not try to impose your will upon we law abiding gun owners. Just as I strive to live my life in a way where I do not impose my will on you.

It is the law of the land...and there has been, in the past, other laws that were challenged and sucessfully overturned because of people with differing opinions.

So, while I will respect your will, I cannot agree to not challenge the law, your will, my neighbor's will, etc, by voicing my opposing opinion.

A lemming I am not. And, I recognize that about you, too. :D

[Puckstop31]

It is the law of the land...and there has been, in the past, other laws that were challenged and sucessfully overturned because of people with differing opinions.

So, while I will respect your will, I cannot agree to not challenge the law, your will, my neighbor's will, etc, by voicing my opposing opinion.

A lemming I am not. And, I recognize that about you, too. :D

:D

I would almost welcome an attempt to "repeal" the 2nd Amendment. Perhaps we could, once and for all, be done with it. One way or the other...

I say this because there are simply WAY too many gun owners who would not stand for it. It would quite literally, IMHO, spark another revolution/civil war.

As a side note, I would like to thank you for keeping this civil. Most of the time when I debate this topic, it gets ugly and I get called names. LOL

[Cataholic]

As a side note, I would like to thank you for keeping this civil. Most of the time when I debate this topic, it gets ugly and I get called names. LOL

The only name I can think to call you is "Annie" as in "Annie get your gun". :D

[smokey the elder]

I am really tempted to deep-six this thread...mainly because it is starting an internet WWIII among people I think of as friends.

[Cataholic]

I am really tempted to deep-six this thread...mainly because it is starting an internet WWIII among people I think of as friends.

Do you know the origin of that phrase?

[RICHARD]

How many rounds have you shot downhill in California, during high fire danger and during an epic drought? I live on the edge of Camp Pendleton and I can tell you there are frequent brush fires there from target practice.




Camp Pendleton has their own fire department (Marines) and the ranges are in isolated areas that have many firebreaks around the perimeter.

I have been in many areas -Texas Canyon, San Fransiquito Canyon and some areas in the Angeles Nat'l. Forest when shooting was legal. My dad's club used to hold many shooting competitions where there were 20-30 guys shooting thousands of rounds and never ran into any problems with fires.

IN all the years that I have live out here in Cah Lee Fun Nee Ah that is the second time I have heard of a fire being started by a shooter. Usually the AHs get lost and light a FOREST FIRE so they can be seen.

The comps were held in all kinds of conditions and the Forestry Dept never had a problem with them. It is the Bobo who gets a hold of some illegal ammo or makes a stupid move that cause a problem like fires, poaching or shooting themselves or someone else.


Get out and shoot a few thousand rounds like my dad and his kids did here in Southern CA.;)

[sparks19]

The only name I can think to call you is "Annie" as in "Annie get your gun". :D

OMG lmao

sorry I know my post has no point but I really had to chuckle at that.

When he walks through the door tonight I think that is going to be the first phrase to come to mind. lol

[RICHARD]

EXCEPT FOR TRACERS WHICH ARE NORMALLY MILITARY USE ONLY.

I think you need to apologize-You are incorrect.

There is a light blue Mercury Tracer parked in the driveway at this moment. It was driven privately for years.;)

[Grace]

I am really tempted to deep-six this thread...mainly because it is starting an internet WWIII among people I think of as friends.

Interesting - I don't get that impression at all. I think it's quite civil - so far.

[sparks19]

I think you need to apologize-You are incorrect.

There is a light blue Mercury Tracer parked in the driveway at this moment. It was driven privately for years.;)

LOL you're so special Richard :p

[Randi]

It is about EVERY human's right to defend themSELVES from tryanny no matter what form it takes. Should this right be removed, we are no longer truly free.

I pray daily that I will never need to use my firearms to protect myself and/or my family. Or worse, protect myself from tyranny of government. But if necessary I can and I WILL.

It’s frightening to read your views, Puckstop, and I hope not too many USA citizens feel that way. Where is your limit? What would it take for you to use your gun? Someone threatening you/your family with a gun? A knife? Nasty words? Can you picture it... everyone walking around defending themself from all the others with guns - what a world!! :rolleyes: You'd soon get rid of each other.



....because criminals by definition do not follow the law.
So much more reason not to let everyone have a gun!

Haven't anyone learned from what happened the last few years? :(


Many, if not most, of us require a car. That same thing can't be said of carrying a gun.
Right on!!

[Ginger's Mom]

As a side note, I would like to thank you for keeping this civil. Most of the time when I debate this topic, it gets ugly and I get called names. LOL

I have to agree, I think that was one of the most interesting and civil debates I have seen on this board. Well done, both of you.

[RICHARD]

It’s frightening to read your views, Puckstop, and I hope not too many USA citizens feel that way. Where is your limit? What would it take for you to use your gun? Someone else threatening you/your family with a gun? A knife? Words? Can you picture it... everyone walking around defending themself from the others with guns - what a world!! :rolleyes:



I have to take this into a different direction. This past Tuesday there was an earthquake here in California. As our governor said, "we dodged a bullet" -
They say that the BIG EARTHQUAKE will happen within the next 30 years.
Should that come to pass, most of the people here will be left on their own.

During the L.A. riots there were many Korean shop keepers who defended their stores/properties from the throngs of looters and rioters. The police, in most cases, stood by and watched. Why? They had to contain the rioting and provide security for the firefighters.

When the Big EQ hits here many people will by looking for a free things. I can imagine that the criminals will be out and about looking for things to steal from stores and citizens.

I have my supplies that might keep me alive- I think I may be inclined to protect my interests in a situation like that. That is a sad statement when you think about it. I may have to resort to using force to stay alive.:(:confused:

Just a reminder of the world we live in.

[Puckstop31]

It’s frightening to read your views, Puckstop, and I hope not too many USA citizens feel that way. Where is your limit? What would it take for you to use your gun? Someone threatening you/your family with a gun? A knife? Nasty words? Can you picture it... everyone walking around defending themself from all the others with guns - what a world!! :rolleyes: You'd soon get rid of each other.

This arguement is made, each and every time a state passes law allow Concealed Carry. And each and every time it is debunked. Why? Because law abiding, gun owning Americans are not the people the rest of the world THINKS we are. (Or should I say TOLD we are by the media?)

Indeed I can imagine a world where everybody has the ability to defend themselves. What a civil and polite world it would be.

As for what it would take for me to use a weapon in self defence... Well, here in my state the law is black and white. I need to feel my life is in danger. Of course that fear would probably need to stand up in court. In my home, as long as the intruder is not a immediate threat (i.e pointing a weapon at me) he gets a warning. If he does not retreat, which would be his CHOICE, I will make my choice...



So much more reason not to let everyone have a gun!

Haven't anyone learned from what happened the last few years? :(

EVERYone can't get a gun. There is a background check required. The Virgina Tech case is an example of a flaw in the background check system. Further, that case is an example of how perhaps if a single law abiding gun owner had been allowed to have his weapon on campus, a tragedy could have been avoided or mitigated.

"Gun free zones...." HA! Why do you think the most crime occurs in these places? Criminals prefer unarmed victims.



Granted, there is obviously a great deal of difference between your culture and mine. Which is super. Really. You live in yours and I will live in mine.

[Edwina's Secretary]

In SoCal a police officer - who I assume was trained in firearm safety - did something rather unsafe. His three year old son in the back seat of his pickup grabbed his service revolver and shot dad in the back. Dad is paralyzed and is -- of course -- suing all sorts of people, inlcuding a client of mine. This will probably be the last straw for my client and they will go out of business. Being trained in firearm safety does not guarantee anything. But then someone will have to pay for the son's therapy.

If the intent of the Founding Fathers is considered infallible, wouldn't that mean the slavery of black people, the disenfranchisement of women, just to name a few of the changes of the last 200 years?

The Constitution is a living document -- or at least so I hope!

[Puckstop31]

In SoCal a police officer - who I assume was trained in firearm safety - did something rather unsafe. His three year old son in the back seat of his pickup grabbed his service revolver and shot dad in the back. Dad is paralyzed and is -- of course -- suing all sorts of people, inlcuding a client of mine. This will probably be the last straw for my client and they will go out of business. Being trained in firearm safety does not guarantee anything. But then someone will have to pay for the son's therapy.

If the intent of the Founding Fathers is considered infallible, wouldn't that mean the slavery of black people, the disenfranchisement of women, just to name a few of the changes of the last 200 years?

The Constitution is a living document -- or at least so I hope!

This is a shame. However, this is dad's fault, not the gun. Especially considering he was a Police Officer.

We can be free or we can be "safer". I choose free. The things you mentioned being changed allowed for more freedom. Banning firearms will REMOVE freedom. Without a way to resist tyranny, we are nothing but chattle.

Besides, a Consitutional Amendment to ban something? A dangerous precedent, eh? Just as I would oppose an amendment to repeal the 2nd Amendment, I would also oppose an amendment to 'define' marriage or to ban abortion.

Our Constitution should set us free, not limit us.

[Randi]

They say that the BIG EARTHQUAKE will happen within the next 30 years.
Oh yes, and I remember hearing that 30 years ago as well, and I do believe it will happen some day - although he climate change may ruin to earth before that. :eek:


When the Big EQ hits here many people will by looking for a free things. I can imagine that the criminals will be out and about looking for things to steal from stores and citizens.
No doubt about it, they will! But I don't think that pointing a gun at them is the right way to tackle it. It would be better to educate people and make an effort to minimize the gap between rich and poor, because poverty is often the cause for people getting violent. When they have come to a point where they have nothing to lose ....


.... law abiding, gun owning Americans are not the people the rest of the world THINKS we are. (Or should I say TOLD we are by the media?)
While I’m aware that media can twist and bend facts, you have to admit that a lot of shootings have happened over the last few years in USA - and escalating in other countries too. So many innocent people/children have lost their lives. :( It might have been prevented if it wasn’t normal to own a gun. A gun can shoot many people, and although knives can too, it would take a lot longer. I’m not in favor of anyone carrying knives either, by the way!


EVERYone can't get a gun. There is a background check required.
OK I believe that a background check is required, but it’s not worth much is it, since the agressive maniacs manage to get hold of guns anyway, one way or the other.


Being trained in firearm safety does not guarantee anything.
Accidents such as this happen too, it is very sad! :(


We can be free or we can be "safer".
I would like to believe we can both free and safe! It is possible in some countries where guns are banned, you know! ;)

[Puckstop31]

OK I believe that a background check is required, but it’s not worth much is it, since the agressive maniacs manage to get hold of guns anyway, one way or the other.

EXACTLY. Gun laws only effect the law abiding.



I would like to believe we can both free and safe! It is possible in some countries where guns are banned, you know! ;)

Define 'free'. Hows your tax rate?

[cassiesmom]

I must admit I don't know what the Unitarian Universalist church beliefs are. But I heard on the news that there was a Presbyterian church right next to the one where the shootings took place. The reporter said it was unclear why the shooter specifically went into the UU church. The gun was brought into the church in a guitar case.

Gun violence bothers me for a lot of reasons. I'm a rehab nurse and I've cared for people with head injuries caused by bullets (shot by themselves or others). Trauma care is much better, so more people are surviving and having to deal with the life consequences of brain injury. More than 20 Chicago high school students were killed by shootings during the 2007-08 school year. You should not have to be afraid of being shot at when you go to church. I don't know what the answer is - more police and the Illinois National Guard on the streets? We might be heading toward a police state situation if that were done. More opportunities for youth programs, education and vocational training to get kids off of the streets and out of gangs? I think that would be great. However, our governor has reduced state funding for such programs and Mayor Daley has deferred releasing his proposed budget for the city of Chicago, so I think public monies for these types of services are going to be less available in the future. More drug enforcement? I don't think it is a problem with an easy or quick answer.

[RICHARD]

In SoCal a police officer - who I assume was trained in firearm safety - did something rather unsafe. His three year old son in the back seat of his pickup grabbed his service revolver and shot dad in the back.

What did he do that was unsafe?

Have a kid?
Buy a crew cab truck?
Load his gun?


HE WAS STUPID, not unsafe. He violated the law-of course the poh poh has a different set of laws-and he won't get charged for it. I cannot transport any gun unless the bullets and gun are in separate places inside the vehicle and the bullets are locked up.


Why wasn't this jerk prosecuted? Here's a clue! How's about endangering a child? Carrying a piece locked and loaded?

Any other piece of crap parent would be charged and held in jail. But the bleeding heart AHs say something like, "He's suffered enough, leave him alone".
So, instead of applying the law for EVERYONE, we let a few people slide, they come back and people get sued because they had little or nothing to do with some stupid "cop" that didn't have half a brain.

Randi,

Here in Lost Angeles the dropout rate for high schools was something like 30 percent. 3 out of 10 kids do not graduate, period. We cannot educate kids in basic knowledge to face the world, so how can we educate them to respect the world?

This always brings me back to a Don Henley song that talks about a man with a briefcase being able to steal more money than a man with a gun.

[smokey the elder]

(Reconsiders deleting and jumps into the fray*

I believe handguns are banned in the UK. In terms of the US, I think we should maybe try to better enforce the laws that are actually on the books. People who drink and drive (trust me, this is going somewhere!) often face stiff penalties, jail time, and license suspension or even revocation. Yet, how many times do you hear of someone "with a suspended license" in a hit and run who kills someone? Is the answer to ban all cars?

People who misuse firearms face jail time and possibly even the death penalty. People also use firearms for legitimate purposes (putting food on the table, for sport, etc.) But, as Ron White so succinctly puts it, "You can't fix stupid." My correlary: "You can't legislate out stupidity." Or hate, or other dirtbaggish human behavior. Our law enforcement system is imperfect at best, so the laws on the books, whether for revoking driving privileges ore shooting privileges, if not enforced, often aren't worth the paper they're printed on.

In a long-winded way I guess I stand on the side of NOT universally banning firearms. My personal preference would be that anyone who wishes to own one would have to be licensed much as one is licensed to drive a car, and this includes passing both a written test and a practical test.

[RICHARD]

(Reconsiders deleting and jumps into the fray*

I believe handguns are banned in the UK. In terms of the US, I think we should maybe try to better enforce the laws that are actually on the books. People who drink and drive (trust me, this is going somewhere!) often face stiff penalties, jail time, and license suspension or even revocation. Yet, how many times do you hear of someone "with a suspended license" in a hit and run who kills someone? Is the answer to ban all cars?




OUT here in Hollyweird, an actor Shia Laboef, La Beef?(Who names these idiots?) wrecked while driving under the influence. He rolled his truck twice but will not be charged because someone else caused the accident!

----------

Japan is another 'gunless' country.

But that didn't keep the wacko that killed and injured 21 people with a car and a knife from doing what he did... What about the Greyhound killer? This gun lops off a fellow passenger's head while tripping thru Canada. The stabbing epidemic in England was another stunner.

------

You are way correct about the laws being as worthless as the paper they are printed on. In L.A. we are in the process of figuring our a papparazzi law to protect the stars from the thundering hordes of photographers-probably to protect them from the law suit when they kill someone trying to get away.

We also have a law keeping any fast food businesses from being built in a low income area of the city because people cannot make good food choices. We have another law banning fats in food.


We also have an 'anti assault gun' law on the books. Why? I don't know. That didn't help out the cops in the North Hollywood shootout. Matter of fact-that was the only time that the cops were ever challenged since that law passed-and that was because of their ammo, the guns and the magazines-and before that it was 1974 with Patty Hearst and her band of brothers.

The one psycho will always take a few guns and go on a rampage. Or knifes or cars or what about the two instances of the heavy machinery that was used in Israel. You can kill anyone with anything.

We just haven't learned to kill each other with kindness:confused::o:(

------------

OUtlaw shovels.
http://www.boston.com/news/odd/articles/2008/07/31/iowa_man_accused_of_biting_off_another_mans_nose/

[Grace]

I swear, it matters not where you live.

1. CHANDIGARH, India (Reuters) - At least 145 people, mostly women and children, were crushed to death under the feet of thousands of pilgrims in a stampede at a temple in northern India on Sunday, police said.

2. FREDERICK, Md. (AP) — Bruce E. Ivins, the late microbiologist suspected in the 2001 anthrax attacks, told his psychotherapist after learning he was about to be indicted that "he was going to go out in a blaze of glory, that he was going to take everybody out with him," she said.


In one case, the crowd gets out of control; in the other Mr. Ivins mind gets out of control. In one, it is the feet that kill; in the other it was anthrax.

No guns, no knives.

[smokey the elder]

Could whoever wrote me a message to my email please send me a PM and I'll give them a better email address? When I open it I get gibberish characters and can't reply to it.

Thanks!