Genetics, cloning, IVF and other things..

[RICHARD]

A few stories in the recent days have made me wonder about all the illnesses, cures and health threats we face today.

The latest is about horse racing and breeding a 'super horse'. Another story, that appeared before the Derby was the possible return of Barbaro.

Yep, thru cloning there was the possibility of getting another Barbaro- would he be called Clobaro or Baroned?:confused:

Poor mothers are tossing out baby bottles because of some chemical present in the plastic- Nalgene (sp?) bottles that I used for years while camping and hiking are also under the microscope.

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This made me question the cause du jour for fundraising in the recent months.
Autism. No one payed any attention to it until a few celeb moms became parents to a child with that affliction.

One thing that strikes me a strange is the desire to blame it on everything from air to water to food. Would I be too harsh to say that it may be possible that a few hundred days of drugs, alcohol or mistreatment of a body may be the cause?

It seems that no one wants to take any kind of look inside themselves to see what may have been the cause of the child's illness.

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Now that we are on to kids, I heard a story of an Orange County,CA woman who lost three kids in an auto accident. The car they were in was rear ended by an jerk driving a truck.

I think it was two days short of the one year anny of the accident that she gave birth to triplets- by c-section. I think they were all four lb. preemies.

It takes about three seconds to figure out that these people took three seconds to go IVF and get their three kids back. I used to work around the corner from the newborn nursery and it's pretty friggin painful to see children born two, three or four months premature.

I have always thought that IVF multiple births are not fair to anyone involved. It's akin to planting crops. Sowing enough seeds to get a crop-sometimes you will not get a 100% return for your efforts.

I can hear the reasons (read selfishness) that this couple gave the doc.

We miss our children.
We want three, no more, no less.
Our eggs are getting old.
I'm too old to get preggers three times.
We can do it in one pregnancy!
We can afford it!

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I am of the mind that we are messing around way too much in matters that will come back to bite us. Too may horror/sci fi books? Maybe.....but wait....the future's still coming!

SCARY!

[Freedom]

Interesting thoughts, Richard.

As for autism, last I read the genome project suggested (not yet clear) that is is a genetic mutation from the father's side.

Friends of mine have 2 autistic children (or 4 kids) and neither parent uses drugs. Mom stayed away form alcohol the entire pregnancy all 4 times. And when she and dad due drink, it is a glass of wine with dinner. (Hey, live out that in California, in wine country!)

[jackie]

As for IVF treatment, there should be a law limiting the amount of fertilized eggs that can be implanted. It may limit the success rate, but takes away the risk of having to selectively abort the weaker fetuses. It must be horrible for a woman/couple who have been trying for years to get pregnant to be told, congrats, you're pregnant, but we need to get rid of one or two of the fetuses to increase the chances of a healthy baby. The thought of abortion after putting your heart and soul (and money) into getting pregnant must make those women's blood run cold.

I think the rise in cases of autism/ADD/allergies/etc is because people are way too quick to diagnose. My child is a little shy and withdrawn, OMG he is autistic, needs special treatment. My kid is a little high strung, OMG she has ADD, get me some Ritalin! I see so many fancy names for things that not that long ago were just social quirks. Rather then getting people to work out and deal with their problems, they are diagnosed and wrapped in cotton wool. A lot of diagnoses just because a crutch for people rather then helping them.

I and running a bit late, and just typed that out as it came into my head, so I hope this post makes at least little sense.

[Karen]

Having one beloved friend whose twins were a result of IVF, I know the doctors implant multiple eggs in hopes that at least one will "take." Another friend gave birth to a single girl each of three times, being grateful to be pregnant each time, and glad after all the expense and medicine and trouble, to have a baby result.

I think people can get a little crazy - why recreate a horse, Barbaro, whose genetics lead to his legs being fragile enough to break under the circumstances they did?

This is another case of "just because you CAN, doesn't mean you should!"

[Edwina's Secretary]

One thing that strikes me a strange is the desire to blame it on everything from air to water to food. Would I be too harsh to say that it may be possible that a few hundred days of drugs, alcohol or mistreatment of a body may be the cause?



Yes, you are being offensively too harsh.

And I suggest you read the story of the OC couple and their babies. May not be my choice but you truely misrepresent the story of this couple and their family.

Also offensively too harsh.

[lizbud]

I think the rise in cases of autism/ADD/allergies/etc is because people are way too quick to diagnose. My child is a little shy and withdrawn, OMG he is autistic, needs special treatment. My kid is a little high strung, OMG she has ADD, get me some Ritalin! I see so many fancy names for things that not that long ago were just social quirks. Rather then getting people to work out and deal with their problems, they are diagnosed and wrapped in cotton wool. A lot of diagnoses just because a crutch for people rather then helping them.




I tend to agree with you on this. What is interesting to me is the spike
in Autism rates after the vaccine mix changed & many children reacted
badly to the amounts & mixtures of vaccines given to babies at one time.

IVF is a whole different issue & one that I know very little about.

[Pam]

Wow this thread is jam packed with things to comment on. First of all, I am daily bombarded with e-mails from my brother about why my grandchildren and his grandchildren should not have vaccines. Unfortunately those e-mails have slackened off now that he is in the hospital as a result of a car accident. :( (He is OK but will be off the computer for about a month due to therapy.) He has sent me so many links that one must hide their heads in the sand not to at least consider the possibility of autism through vaccines.

Secondly, my nephew and his wife are now the parents of two beautiful twin daughters conceived through in vitro. This was after years of trying to conceive. I couldn't be happier for them. The disconcerting part of all of this is that at one of the ultrasound visits it was noted that one of the twin's head size was not quite "normal" and the question of Downs arose and also the need to consider doing amnio to confirm and possibly abort. Her comment was "Forget the amnio. After all that we have gone through to have these babies, we will raise a Downs baby if that is the case." By the way, both twins are perfectly normal!!

The scary thing to me is that we have reached such a level of knowledge now that it is causing us to have to consider things that our parents/grandparents never had to think about and also creating often unnecessary fear in pregnant women. In some ways I miss the way it was. My children were born before ultrasounds (it was done back then for confirmation if twins were suspected). There was the sort of neat surprise at birth as to whether it was a boy or girl. On the other hand, I think it is wonderful that we can detect things in the womb and be ready to deal with them at the instant of birth. Good thread Richard!

[RICHARD]

And I suggest you read the story of the OC couple and their babies. May not be my choice but you truely misrepresent the story of this couple and their family.

Also offensively too harsh.

How?

I gave what I heard about the story,then an opinion. Give me something to work with, I'll give you Richardspeak, you won't understand it and we'll agree not to.

(Richardspeak? shades of 1984!)

Let's try it this way. I guess my critique of that story is how 'replaceable' lives are. "Hey, we lost three kids in a horrible accident. Let's get three more to replace them." It's the idea that parents can have kids, raise them, lose them way too soon, then decide that three more can cover the pain and loss.

I guess I would be way too attached to my first three kids to go out and get new ones if they were lost.

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Should anyone trip thru a hospital and get a chance to visit preemies, please do so.

Especially if it's quads or more.

Now, let's go into the financial part of IVF, multiple births and health care.

I haven't a clue as to what an IVF costs. A lot? More? Too expensive?
IF it goes to more that one attempt?

Prenatal care is the cheapest part-if the mom doesn't have any problems-show up at an appointment, get a sonogram and read all the pamphlets.

Now, Find out what a bed in a NICU (newborn intensive care unit) costs, factor in nurse's care, pediatric specialists and multiply that by days and number of children. Sadly, there are no "group rates" or "kids eat free" days when you deal with hospital/insurance billing.

And we haven't even talked about eggs that are implanted, take and are aborted, still births and live births that expire.

How does that/would that impact the mom, dad or family?

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About daddy's contributions-

Years ago someone published a study that blamed male infertility on tight undies. I think that me making a statement like the one I made is akin to the "experts" and their assessment of the Fruit of the Loom phenomenon. If that's the case, the population numbers would bear it out?

Something like comparing the number of men's bikini underwear sold to the census numbers during the peak in sales??:rolleyes:

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Food-

Recently there was a suggestion that you can 'choose' the sex of a child be skipping breakfast? How scientific was that study?


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About drinking and doping....

If a mother can pass along an addiction, might the father's habits affect the genes passed to his kids?

I know that that isn't always the case, but if it can happen?:eek:

[Karen]

Hey, Richard, I was a premie, as were all my siblings. Back before IVF even existed. What have you got against us? Do not babies born too early, through no fault of the babies themselves, deserve love and care?

My friend's IVF twins were premies, and yet they are now happy healthy three-year-old, much loved by many.

[Edwina's Secretary]

RICHARD...your lack of compassion for parents of autistic children and the Orange County parents is exceptional.

Anyone who is interested, can read the story. http://www.ocregister.com/articles/coble-children-born-2031842-lori-ladera

This couple lost three children in a horrible accident. They wanted children. They used IV to concieve. There were three viable eggs. They chose to have all three implanted. All three were born and are in good condition.

RICHARD...you don't agree with this. Okay.

Have you ever known parents of an autistic child? If so, I suggest you confront them with your idea of their "fault" in the child's condition.

If not, I suggest you get to know such a family. Tell them your suspicions about their use of drugs, alcohol, or other self-abuse.

See if they agree with you.

[RICHARD]

Hey, Richard, I was a premie, as were all my siblings. Back before IVF even existed. What have you got against us? Do not babies born too early, through no fault of the babies themselves, deserve love and care?

My friend's IVF twins were premies, and yet they are now happy healthy three-year-old, much loved by many.

Before I get into trouble.:eek:

All newborns deserve love and care. I didn't intend to make it sound like early births didn't need the care or attention.

In the 'good old days' a set of trips or quads was rare. As we have progressed in medicine, trips and quads, quints- up to septuplets are more and more common.

My concern lies with multiple egg IVFs.

Jackie said it best. I would like to see limits on eggs/embryo implantation.

Implanting five or more eggs and having them all take, raises the bar as far as the health of the mother and the kids.

Placenta problems, incompetent cervix, blood pressure, blood chemistry, fluid retention, pregnancy related diabetes.

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I have seen the billings on multiple birth/extended stays for preemie births and I was floored. I in no way was saying that the children did not deserve any or all the care they received. As a matter of fact, the NICU nurses I have known were more caring than the other specialties.

It's way tougher to care for someone who can't say how they feel!;)

I just have problems with the costs of healthcare - The five dollar aspirin is alive and well.

[Medusa]

What I've been hearing regarding the increase in autism has been the link between immunizations in young children and autism. Not having researched it further, I can't say for sure, obviously, but if it takes a celebrity to bring it to the public's attention, so be it. If there's truth to it, then we all benefit. If not, no harm, no foul.

In another vein, any time we "mess w/nature", we're bound to get into a cloudy area. An example is the new drugs on the market for decreasing the number of menstrual periods a year. I understand that the monthly cycle can have its inconveniences but I'm one of those women who actually didn't mind her period and, now that I'm not having them any more, I would LOVE to experience it again, cramps and all. Sometimes I think I was born into the wrong era. Our sister ancestors used to go to their menstrual huts, take care of themselves, and impart wisdom to others, sometimes in the form of psychic predictions even. I used to take aspirin, drink tea, curl up w/a book and cat or dog, sit by the fire and take it in stride. And, yes, I was a working mother. I taught exercise and aerobic classes, among other things, sometimes as many as 6 classes a day. The world didn't stop because Mary was on her moon time. However, if I had had the luxury of not working during my cycle, I would have taken better care of myself. We push ourselves too much today and sometimes forget that we're women first and working people second. I don't know what harm these drugs can do to the body; I can't imagine that they can have only a positive effect. This isn't a value judgment; it's an opinion that a woman's menstrual period is natural and we should embrace it rather than attempt to abolish it.

[Karen]

What I've been hearing regarding the increase in autism has been the link between immunizations in young children and autism. Not having researched it further, I can't say for sure, obviously, but if it takes a celebrity to bring it to the public's attention, so be it. If there's truth to it, then we all benefit. If not, no harm, no foul.

Study after study after study has proven no link between vaccinations and autism. It's one of those "urban legend" kind of things. People believe what they want to believe, regardless of the facts. Blaming a vaccination is easier than examining their own actions, past drug use, or environmental factors, for example ... if it is the vaccination's "fault" then it can't be MY fault ...

[RICHARD]

Immunzations......

I had a blood test done before surgery. It came back with one little problem,
I had no antibodies to keep me from getting the measles!

I did have the shots when I was a kid so I was a little skeptical. I went for my shots and jokingly told the nurse that I probably would get the measles from the injection.

I was told that it was impossible because it was a "dead" form of the illness.

Later that week I was getting dressed for a softball game and noticed that I had little red dots all over my body. SO much for science!

[RICHARD]

I was listening with half an ear to the radio and tv...

There is a lawsuit that is going to trial about the issues and concerns about autism being caused by vaccinations.

A reporter for one of the news channels said that the preservatives in the meds were mercury and another that I do not remember.

Now,
The "experts" say that the levels of mercury were way over 'normal' for a human of that size/age. Apparently, the mercury travels to the brain and is found in the lining around the brain and THAT is the cause of autism in kids.

Now, I am supposing about this but- If the same preservatives are used in other injectable vaccines, why aren't adults and other people getting the same bad side effects that kids get? It seems to reason that adults should be getting autism too!:confused:

[lizbud]

I was listening with half an ear to the radio and tv...

There is a lawsuit that is going to trial about the issues and concerns about autism being caused by vaccinations.

A reporter for one of the news channels said that the preservatives in the meds were mercury and another that I do not remember.

Now,
The "experts" say that the levels of mercury were way over 'normal' for a human of that size/age. Apparently, the mercury travels to the brain and is found in the lining around the brain and THAT is the cause of autism in kids.

Now, I am supposing about this but- If the same preservatives are used in other injectable vaccines, why aren't adults and other people getting the same bad side effects that kids get? It seems to reason that adults should be getting autism too!:confused:


Adults have mature immune systems & a growing baby does not. It's brain
and other organs continue to grow, change & mature through their early
years. Children are much more susceptable to chemicals of any kind.

[RICHARD]

Adults have mature immune systems & a growing baby does not. It's brain
and other organs continue to grow, change & mature through their early
years. Children are much more susceptable to chemicals of any kind.

That is the basis of the lawsuit.

Immunity and poisoning are different. Immunity is the body's ability to fight off a disease. Antibodies, the lymph system and white blood cells kill the infection in the body. In a poisoning your body tries to cleanse itself from the materials that are ingested or absorbed. Some materials are the cause of illnesses. Like asbestos or fiberglass- They cause a person to get sick, but you cannot have 'immunity' from the material. Some things you can process out of your body-other things are there forever.

People inhale fiberglass, the fibers settle in the lungs and gunk you up so you have to use oxygen, get a transplant or die. I can, theoretically, hang out with kids that have the measles and never get sick-because I have been vaccinated. I can hang out with a person with a fiberglass based illness and not get sick-but I can't work in a FG job and be 100% sure I won't get ill.

There is no conclusive evidence that anything in vaccines cause autism-as a matter of fact, some are leaning towards a genetic reason for the illness.

:confused:

[RICHARD]

I just saw an interview with Jenny Mc Carthy about her fight against autism.

The slogan for her fight is "Green the Vaccine" meaning that she wants all the 'additives' taken out of vaccines.

I had to laugh about this. It's the usual uninformed reaction people with a cause have to a problem that affects them personally.

There are preservatives added to vaccines to keep them viable- storage, temp, light are the main reasons that vaccines have extras in them.

There is no evidence as to what causes autism.

But she is willing to have the manufacturers take out these additives that might make a difference to kids, in the future?

IF she is successful that opens the door for the companies to raise the prices of an innoculation because they have to produce any vaccine consistently.
Vaccines will spoil and what would be the effects to the population if we needed huge amounts of a med? Look at flu vaccines and the problems when we have an outbreak!-if that ban on additives extends to those vaccines there will be no way to properly stockpile them for a future epidemic.

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The last thing I found fascinating was her claim that her son was cured of his autism. Of course she claimed that after her son got the shots he stopped talking and was diagnosed as being autistic. With her involvlment and getting her son her son the treatment she could afford, her child is cured.

She also talked about some conversations with a doctor where she opposed the doctor's opinion. I always thought she was a stupid blonde.

But now I am encouraged about her knowledge of medicine and have schedule a physical and a prostate exam with her.:rolleyes:

[sparks19]

Well.. there are only a few things I can comment on here.

First... I just Plain do NOT agree with cloning AT ALL. it is ridiculous.

Secondly... something I have experience with.

Costs of labor and nicu stay.

I did not have insurance when Hannah was born. We found a hospital that had a MAJOR discount for cash payments... a lot of amish and mennonites go to this hospital so it is nessecary to have this plan. It was the most amazing hospital and when we have a second child... insurance or not we WILL be going to this hospital.

Hannah had to be admitted to the NICU with Pneumonia two days after birth. Luckily she was under my husbands insurance. She was there for 8 days. The bill for her stay was $25,000. We have to pay 10% so we are paying monthly installments for $2500. Not too bad. My care including all of my prenatal care was $10,000. $5,000 we paid before she was even born... and we are making monthly payments for the rest. so it CAN be done... AND I am a stay at home mom... but we are some of the lucky ones.

As for premies. I will forever be inspired by Evan. He was born at 28 weeks. He was in the nicu for 42 days. He went home on the same day Hannah did. He was SO tiny but he was a miracle baby. Being born that early he only had to be on the CPAP for TWO days... YES TWO days. Hannah was on the CPAP for just as long but made leaps and bounds as far as progress in the following days. H e went home before is actual due date.

We saw them at a NICU reunion recently. He is completely normal and healthy (although he lost his headful of thick black hair that he had in the NICU and is now bald like Hannah lol)

So that just goes to show that just because they are premie doesn't mean they are in trouble and just because they are on time does not mean they are out of trouble. I did not do drugs or drink or anything else while pregnant with Hannah. What happened to her was beyond my control... TMI... I had a VERY slow leak that no one knew about and bacteria got in and she got an infection.

[critters]

For a little while my sister fell into the vaccine trap about my nephew, insisting that he talked, etc. up until one vax or another, but she was wrong--he DIDN'T talk until he was, like, 4, and people I know, who KNOW--having MR kids, LD grandkids, etc.-- knew "something" was wrong with him by the time he was 2. Is it autism? Well, I find that debatable; I call it ADHD with a twist. 25 years ago, he wouldn't have been called autistic, nor would/were a lot of other people I know, hence at least a partial explanation of the rise in numbers.

[moosmom]

I agree with Edwina's Secretary. A bit too harsh in some respects. But there are some good points.