Politics and religion.

[Grace]

I only throw fists... bottles make too much of a mess :D

But throwing bottles does relieve stress :D I adore going to the recycling place and throwing those bottles into the container. The stress just melts away . . . . . . .

[sparks19]

Haha ya that is fun

Seriously though i never raise
A hand to puck... Most of the time i dont lift a finger :o.

But i would be probably give someone a black eye in a bar before he would lol

Im harmless really lol

[wombat2u2004]

Seriously though i never raise
A hand to puck...

My wife does.
Especially when I stretch Glad Wrap over her toilet seat.

[lizbud]

Finally, the Ladies will get to speak up loud & clear. Let them hear you
Ladies.:) We are listening.:)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-court-arguments-20101226,0,2050179.story

[wombat2u2004]

Finally, the Ladies will get to speak up loud & clear. Let them hear you
Ladies.:) We are listening.:)

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-court-arguments-20101226,0,2050179.story

Really ?? You don't have "Separation of the Powers" in your Constitution ??
What has all of this Liberal/Conservative tripe got to do with the Judiciary ???

[Puckstop31]

Really ?? You don't have "Separation of the Powers" in your Constitution ??
What has all of this Liberal/Conservative tripe got to do with the Judiciary ???

A most excellent question Mr. Wom.


Perhaps Mrs. Lizbud would care to explain? She, afterall, was the person who shared the op-ed piece.

[cassiesmom]

But throwing bottles does relieve stress :D I adore going to the recycling place and throwing those bottles into the container. The stress just melts away . . . . . . .

My roommate from college used to live in an apartment over a hardware store, which was next door to a bar (this was after we graduated and she was already married). The sound of all those glass bottles being dumped into the recycling bin after closing (around 3 AM)... crassssshhh! Throwing them into a plastic recycling container just doesn't have the same effect. Stomping on aluminum pop cans works pretty well when I'm steaming mad, though. They make a pretty satisfying crunching noise.

[Grace]

My roommate from college used to live in an apartment over a hardware store, which was next door to a bar (this was after we graduated and she was already married). The sound of all those glass bottles being dumped into the recycling bin after closing (around 3 AM)... crassssshhh! Throwing them into a plastic recycling container just doesn't have the same effect. Stomping on aluminum pop cans works pretty well when I'm steaming mad, though. They make a pretty satisfying crunching noise.

Elyse - the big bins I throw the bottles into are metal, not plastic. So there is plenty of noise and crash and splintering. These bins are at our Township Hall, and get hauled away a couple of time a week by Mr. Rubbish.

[Edwina's Secretary]

When we lived in Chicago we took our recyclables to a location where we had to perform a "separation of powers" or at least a separation of glass. :p:rolleyes:

Clear, brown and green. It was so empowering to heave the glass in with gusto.....

[lizbud]

Really ?? You don't have "Separation of the Powers" in your Constitution ??
What has all of this Liberal/Conservative tripe got to do with the Judiciary ???


Wom,

The "separation of powers" has nothing whatever to do with the "tenor
of the debate" at the Supreme Court.

as for the Conservative tripe heard during deliberations, there is entirely too
much of it by a few loud mouth Justices with no equally strong Liberal voices to balance out the rhetoric. IMO.

[RICHARD]

as for the Conservative tripe heard during deliberations, there is entirely too
much of it by a few loud mouth Justices with no equally strong Liberal voices to balance out the rhetoric. IMO.


I love tripe and I eat a bowl of menudo whenever I can.

[wombat2u2004]

Wom,

The "separation of powers" has nothing whatever to do with the "tenor
of the debate" at the Supreme Court.

as for the Conservative tripe heard during deliberations, there is entirely too
much of it by a few loud mouth Justices with no equally strong Liberal voices to balance out the rhetoric. IMO.

What are they doing arguing about politics then ???
The judiciary is there to apply the law.

[lizbud]

What are they doing arguing about politics then ???
The judiciary is there to apply the law.


The Justices are not arguing,they are espousing their own personal
ideas of what is right or proper under the law. I am beyond tired of hearing
only the Conservative definitionss & look forward to a little more balance
in the debates.

[Puckstop31]

What are they doing arguing about politics then ???
The judiciary is there to apply the law.

A good question Wom.

Article III of the U.S. Constitution.

"Article III - The Judicial Branch
Section 1 - Judicial powers

The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behavior, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

Section 2 - Trial by Jury, Original Jurisdiction, Jury Trials

(The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction; to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party; to Controversies between two or more States; between a State and Citizens of another State; between Citizens of different States; between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.) (This section in parentheses is modified by the 11th Amendment.)

In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.

Section 3 - Treason

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."


---

Over the years, the SCOTUS has taken on a role of interpreting the Constitution. As you can see, that is not a power directly given it, but it makes sense that it would become so. (The Marshall Court, the case of Marbury vs. Madison was influential.) But herin lies the the key... The Court is supposed to ONLY decide if a law is Constitutional, not to actually make law. Naturally, a ruling they make could motivate Congress to change or create a new law, but a SCOTUS ruling does not create law.

So, as long as the SCOTUS does it's job.... Ruling if laws the Congress and Executive branch pass are legal according to the Constitution, then the system is working as the founders intended. (Ok, at least the Court part. LOL)


To summarize... If you want to CHANGE how the Federal Government of the United States works... (ETA, or confer new 'rights' to citizens.) Amend the Constitution. The founders, in their brilliance, gave us the ability to do so.

[mrspunkysmom]

Good idea Richard........

To My Democrat Friends:

Please accept with no obligation, implied or explicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the generally accepted calendar year 2011 but not without due respect for the calendars of choice of other cultures whose contributions to society have helped make America great. Not to imply that America is necessarily greater than any other country nor the only America in the Western Hemisphere . Also, this wish is made without regard to the race, creed, color, age, physical ability, religious faith or sexual preference of the wishee.

To My Republican Friends:

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

This more-than-a-little-left of center Liberal says "Merry Christmas and happy New Year", Wom. I still respect other cultures, but I do say "Merry Christmas."

[mrspunkysmom]

A good question Wom.

Article III of the U.S. Constitution.

"Article III - The Judicial Branch
Section 1 - Judicial powers

The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behavior, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office."



*************************

So, as long as the SCOTUS does it's job.... Ruling if laws the Congress and Executive branch pass are legal according to the Constitution, then the system is working as the founders intended. (Ok, at least the Court part. LOL)


To summarize... If you want to CHANGE how the Federal Government of the United States works... (ETA, or confer new 'rights' to citizens.) Amend the Constitution. The founders, in their brilliance, gave us the ability to do so.

I don't usually post here, so apologies if I step on any feet.

I agree. During the recent elections, the local TEA party had stickers for the CSA, Constitutional States of America. This reflected the idea that the country needs to return to the roots of the constitution. They don't like all of the amendments or liberal views of the constitution.

Okay, I don't pay attention like I should, but I didn't realize that we had strayed. I explained to the seller at the rally that the constitution was designed to be amended, but it wasn't easy. He wasn't happy with that and just smiled. IMHO, this desire by 1/2 of our country to run the constitution through a conservative filter does break from the intentions of our forefathers.

Sadly I do realize that there are other issues behind this desire to "return" to the "roots" of the constitution. I also think it is a rallying cry, just to get people to vote your way.

We have also gotten to the point where we cannot agree to disagree any more. WE are each right and there is no between.

[wombat2u2004]

This more-than-a-little-left of center Liberal says "Merry Christmas and happy New Year", Wom. I still respect other cultures, but I do say "Merry Christmas."

So do I. So why all the political correctness ???
I respect other cultures as well, and some are offended by Merry Xmas ???
Perhaps other cultures should learn to respect other than themselves.
I don't hear too much about respect from them, but I do hear a lot of "I am offended" by them.
The melting pot theory is a great idea.......if we ALL agree with it. ;);)

[wombat2u2004]

A good question Wom.

Article III of the U.S. Constitution.

"Article III - The Judicial Branch
Section 1 - Judicial powers

The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The Judges, both of the supreme and inferior Courts, shall hold their Offices during good Behavior, and shall, at stated Times, receive for their Services a Compensation which shall not be diminished during their Continuance in Office.

Section 2 - Trial by Jury, Original Jurisdiction, Jury Trials

(The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties made, or which shall be made, under their Authority; to all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls; to all Cases of admiralty and maritime Jurisdiction; to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party; to Controversies between two or more States; between a State and Citizens of another State; between Citizens of different States; between Citizens of the same State claiming Lands under Grants of different States, and between a State, or the Citizens thereof, and foreign States, Citizens or Subjects.) (This section in parentheses is modified by the 11th Amendment.)

In all Cases affecting Ambassadors, other public Ministers and Consuls, and those in which a State shall be Party, the supreme Court shall have original Jurisdiction. In all the other Cases before mentioned, the supreme Court shall have appellate Jurisdiction, both as to Law and Fact, with such Exceptions, and under such Regulations as the Congress shall make.

The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed.

Section 3 - Treason

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted."


---

Over the years, the SCOTUS has taken on a role of interpreting the Constitution. As you can see, that is not a power directly given it, but it makes sense that it would become so. (The Marshall Court, the case of Marbury vs. Madison was influential.) But herin lies the the key... The Court is supposed to ONLY decide if a law is Constitutional, not to actually make law. Naturally, a ruling they make could motivate Congress to change or create a new law, but a SCOTUS ruling does not create law.

So, as long as the SCOTUS does it's job.... Ruling if laws the Congress and Executive branch pass are legal according to the Constitution, then the system is working as the founders intended. (Ok, at least the Court part. LOL)


To summarize... If you want to CHANGE how the Federal Government of the United States works... (ETA, or confer new 'rights' to citizens.) Amend the Constitution. The founders, in their brilliance, gave us the ability to do so.

Fair enough. You all have a system that you believe works, if you are happy with that, then I say fair enough.

For me, a true Separation of the Powers does not allow judicial interference in political disputes (Bush v Gore), apportionment and re-districting (Baker v Carr). These disputes should handled by the Legislature or the Executive.
The Supreme Court has an increasingly central role in American governance.
Is that a good thing ???? Have the framers of your Constitution given YOU the right to amend the Constitution ??? They probably have.
Those positions tho are filled with politically appointed judges who stick their heads into the political arena, and themselves creating Legislation and amending the Constitution based on their own political ideals.

Dunno if that is a good thing Pucky. Here, the Powers all have their own responsibilities. The Executive and the Legislature are pretty well intertwined,
but the Federal Judiciary strictly guards its independence from the other two branches.

Yeah, I read Marbury v Madison. They did a good job on poor old Marbury :eek:

One question I will ask you tho. From a vet to a vet.
Article III
Section 3 - Treason
Why wasn't Jane Fonda charged with Treason ????

[Puckstop31]

I don't usually post here, so apologies if I step on any feet.

I agree. During the recent elections, the local TEA party had stickers for the CSA, Constitutional States of America. This reflected the idea that the country needs to return to the roots of the constitution. They don't like all of the amendments or liberal views of the constitution.

Okay, I don't pay attention like I should, but I didn't realize that we had strayed. I explained to the seller at the rally that the constitution was designed to be amended, but it wasn't easy. He wasn't happy with that and just smiled. IMHO, this desire by 1/2 of our country to run the constitution through a conservative filter does break from the intentions of our forefathers.

Sadly I do realize that there are other issues behind this desire to "return" to the "roots" of the constitution. I also think it is a rallying cry, just to get people to vote your way.

We have also gotten to the point where we cannot agree to disagree any more. WE are each right and there is no between.

Can you explain what you mean by "conservative filter" and how doing so breaks from the intentions of the founders? Or, can you share what you think the founders intentions were?

I do understand how you can feel on the point of not being able to disagree anymore. It goes to the buzzword "bi-partisan". That word is a very dangerous one. Compromise (Bi-Partisanship?) is OK, as long as one does not have to compromise core values to get it. I think this is where the deadlock comes from. The "sides" are so far apart that neither seems to be willing or able to compromise. Basically, each 'side' sees compromise as the OTHER side caving in. Its a pickle indeed. Personally, I think that a slow moving, divided Congress is a GREAT thing. Partisanship makes people think and be creative.

[Puckstop31]

Fair enough. You all have a system that you believe works, if you are happy with that, then I say fair enough.

For me, a true Separation of the Powers does not allow judicial interference in political disputes (Bush v Gore), apportionment and re-districting (Baker v Carr). These disputes should handled by the Legislature or the Executive.
The Supreme Court has an increasingly central role in American governance.
Is that a good thing ???? Have the framers of your Constitution given YOU the right to amend the Constitution ??? They probably have.
Those positions tho are filled with politically appointed judges who stick their heads into the political arena, and themselves creating Legislation and amending the Constitution based on their own political ideals.

Good points.

I hear what you are saying baout the Judiciary getting invovled in political disputes. But, to me, you cannot have a TRUE separation of powers if only two branches are involved. The Judiciary needs to be the final arbeiter from time to time, when no other Constitutional solution can be found.

But, I cannot argue that the Judiciary here has become way to political. But what do you do? You can't have elections for them, because that makes it WAY political.

In the end... As long as the arguements stay about the Constitutionality of a law, it is working.



One question I will ask you tho. From a vet to a vet.
Article III
Section 3 - Treason
Why wasn't Jane Fonda charged with Treason ????

Do you really need to ask? The fact that she is not in jail is a disgrace.

My Dad saw an ad for some new exercise video she put out.... He was less than pleased. ;)

[mrspunkysmom]

I think the founding fathers created a system of laws that would serve the country in their time but that could be amended by future generations to meet their needs. They, too, had to compromise to get the document written.

It seems like many conservatives put judicial candidates through a litmus tests of certain ideological values such as Roe vs Wade, Defense of Marriage, open homosexuality in the military, etc. I would hope that someone selected to a higher judicial bench would decide on the merits of the case and not just on their own beliefs.

This is part of the polarization of this country around the religion litmus test. I know many people, liberal in belief except for Roe vs Wade, who would vote for a conservative they couldn't stand if that person promised to overturn Roe vs Wade. I was raised Catholic and still believe, but I have come to respect others' beliefs and cultures.

Our elections and politics seem to have become a one-issue conversation.

Sadly the liberals aren't behaving much better. Rather than taking the high road, the liberals have engaged in political mud wrestling with the conservatives.

I hope I have clarified my rambling thoughts.

[Puckstop31]

I think the founding fathers created a system of laws that would serve the country in their time but that could be amended by future generations to meet their needs. They, too, had to compromise to get the document written.



They created a system of government that ensures the highest possible level of INDIVIDUAL Liberty. Individual is important and much different than the 'liberty' of the collective masses. It was also intended that the Federal Government remain as small as possible. The Constitution grants the Federal Government a limited scope of powers and with the 10th Amendment, ensures that everything else is up to the States or the People.

As time progresses there are certainly needs for the Federal Government to need more ability to do certain things. I believe that it has grown WAY too big. So big that it starts to inhibit a persons Liberty, rather than enhance it.

Counter to that are the words "or to the people" in the 10th Amendment. The People elect our representatives and thus the arguement can be made that as long as the elected do what the electorate wants, its OK. Does that look like what has happened in the past couple of decades?

[wombat2u2004]

The People elect our representatives and thus the arguement can be made that as long as the elected do what the electorate wants, its OK. Does that look like what has happened in the past couple of decades?

No. But it's the same all over the world. I think Pollies have become distant from the people.....and I think it will get worse in the future.

[Puckstop31]

No. But it's the same all over the world. I think Pollies have become distant from the people.....and I think it will get worse in the future.

Actually, I have more and more faith in my countrymen every day. The key is to actually talk to people rather than listen to the news media.

AND, we just learned that people CAN change. So, everything is coming up "Milhouse". LOL

Merry New Year! :D

[wombat2u2004]

Actually, I have more and more faith in my countrymen every day. The key is to actually talk to people rather than listen to the news media.

AND, we just learned that people CAN change. So, everything is coming up "Milhouse". LOL

Merry New Year! :D

A Happy New Year to you and yours to Puck ;)

Funny thing you should mention the media. I was talking to a guy today who is the manager of a huge car sales company in Queensland. He was telling me that in motor magazines, the articles that list the best cars from No.10 down to No.1 based on test drives by the author of those articles, is nothing but a whole heap of BS. Evidently these so called journalists receive huge money kickbacks from car manufacturers to put their brand of cars further up the list..
I mean, some people read those magazines like they are the bible, and base their next vehicle purchase on the so called facts that are printed.
And these guys just KEEP getting away with this kind of stuff.

[Grace]

Starting off on the right foot -


WASHINGTON — In the first two days of the new Congress , Dallas Rep. Pete Sessions cast a series of votes and participated in House committee hearings. But there was one problem: he was not officially sworn in as a member of Congress.


source (http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/politics/state/stories/010711dntexsessions.8b409323.html)

[lizbud]

Too busy celebrating & gladhanding to observe the House rules I guess.:)
There was one other member(almost) who missed swearing in on the House
floor, but I think they finally got the record straightened out.:rolleyes:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/01/06/two-house-republicans-miss-swearing-in-but-still-vote/

[Grace]

Gabrielle Giffords, D-AZ, was shot in the head this morning in Tucson.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09giffords.html?_r=1&hp

ETA - up to a dozen people may have been shot, and it's being reported that some have died.

[lizbud]

Gabrielle Giffords, D-AZ, was shot in the head this morning in Tucson.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/us/politics/09giffords.html?_r=1&hp

ETA - up to a dozen people may have been shot, and it's being reported that some have died.


Isn't this tragic.:( Her husband is an Astronaut preparing for a mission.
I've head that a child was killed as well as a Federal Judge. I am watching
a news report now.

[blue]

The DBag shot and killed a 9 year old! *Edited at the request of the Mayor* thats the tragedy.

Mr DBag shooter is in custody before he could off himself, now we have to house and feed this AHole until we can try him.

ETA: If a well known Conservative female had been shot in the head many lefties, nationwide and in the news media, would have noticed A CHILD was killed. Instead they are pining over a politician because a D followed her name, the fact that a child was killed isnt as important as a left leaning judge or a Democrat politician.

[mrspunkysmom]

The DBag shot and killed a 9 year old! And you 2 are pining over a politician. Somehow in your eyes a politician rates higher then a 9 year old child, thats the tragedy.

Mr DBag shooter is in custody before he could off himself, now we have to house and feed this AHole until we can try him.

Blue, everywhere in the news Congresswoman Gifford's name leads the story, not the judge that was fatally shot, nor the others that are dead or injured, esp a child. She was more than likely the focus of the shooter, and thus leads the story.

I too think it is tragic that this scumbucket (too nice a word) resorted to violence to make a point and he shot or killed 18 people to make a point. It is equally sad that respect for other people and for life is not taught in our society.

[lizbud]

The DBag shot and killed a 9 year old! And you 2 are pining over a politician. Somehow in your eyes a politician rates higher then a 9 year old child, thats the tragedy.

Mr DBag shooter is in custody before he could off himself, now we have to house and feed this AHole until we can try him.




Clue: This thread is about Politics. Clue: A political figure was shot in the head today.


If you were to be shot tomorrow, it would probably be noted in your local media If your Governor were shot
tomorrow, it would be noted in the local AND National media.

National media follows National figures no matter what political party they belong to.

[blue]

Excuse me for putting a child up as more important then a Democrat politician.

[Karen]

Excuse me for putting a child up as more important then a Democrat politician.

Blue, I wonder if, in the media's case, it is that they have information on the public figures - the politicians, but don't have much info on the child, and the family may not want that info released, so they can process and mourn privately. As private citizens, we should afford them that right, as politicians, that's part of being a "public servant" - lack of privacy.

[Grace]

What's that phrase - words have consequences? Actions do, also. And postings on Facebook.

During the fall campaign season, a former Governor had a post on Facebook. A map was shown, depicting spots where Democrats (in particular, those who had voted for health care reform) were running for re-election; those Democrats were noted by crosshairs symbols like those seen through the scope of a gun. Ms. Giffords was among those on the map.

[blue]

Blue, I wonder if, in the media's case, it is that they have information on the public figures - the politicians, but don't have much info on the child, and the family may not want that info released, so they can process and mourn privately. As private citizens, we should afford them that right, as politicians, that's part of being a "public servant" - lack of privacy.

The media made the case that a Democrat politicians, or a left leaning judges, life is more important then a childs life.

What I find tragic is that others follow along with the MSM's judgment of whose life is more meaningful. The life of a child, or the life of a Democratic politician or judge. The fact that the media and the sheeples view that the politicians life was more news worthy is sickening.

Roof top voting has started.

[Puckstop31]

What's that phrase - words have consequences? Actions do, also. And postings on Facebook.

During the fall campaign season, a former Governor had a post on Facebook. A map was shown, depicting spots where Democrats (in particular, those who had voted for health care reform) were running for re-election; those Democrats were noted by crosshairs symbols like those seen through the scope of a gun. Ms. Giffords was among those on the map.

I expected this to come out, but not from you.

I don't want to put words in your mouth.... But this post makes me feel that you would be OK 'banning' speech of this sort.

Will we ever get past living our lives in fear of the lowest common denominator? There will ALWAYS be crazy people who do crazy things. Why should we inhibit our Liberty to keep ourselves "safe" from the crazy people? I mean, look at FOX/HUFFPO/MEDIA MATTERS/etc. The same insane aruguments come out every time something like this happens.


----

Armored rubber suits for all! Pre-programmed TV of ONE channel, with 'safe' content! All internet posts must pre 'approved' before posting. Organic, free range, carbon neutral tofu for all and nothing else.

:rolleyes:

Sorry, just trying to stay with the media's theme for today.

[Puckstop31]

Roof top voting has started.

Lets find out what this morons real motivation was before we say stupid things like this, ok?

Blue, the 'voting from the rooftops' thing is INSANE. Killing a civilian who posed no threat to you is MURDER. Period.

So stop it, OK?

[Grace]

Last year, after her district turned up under crosshairs on Sarah Palin's "Take Back the 20" map, a chart of congressional districts whose congresspeople voted for health care reform, Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords gave an interview to MSNBC. Today, sadly, her words from that interview are terrifyingly prescient:

We need to realize that the rhetoric, and the firing people up and ... for example, we're on Sarah Palin's targeted list, but the thing is, the way she has it depicted, we're in the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize that there are consequences to that action...

source (http://www.good.is/post/gabrielle-giffords-warned-of-the-dangers-of-palin-s-crosshairs-map/)

[Puckstop31]

source (http://www.good.is/post/gabrielle-giffords-warned-of-the-dangers-of-palin-s-crosshairs-map/)

Super. Now you can start the "Its all Palin's fault" and maybe leave ol' George alone.

Really? This is what we are coming to in this country?

Signed,
"The Enemy"

[Grace]

20 people were shot; 6 have died.

Gabe Zimmerman, 30, Giffords community outreach director. He was recently engaged.

John Roll, 63, the chief judge for the District of Arizona,

Christina Taylor Green,9. Here is an article (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/early-lead/2011/01/granddaughter_of_dallas_green.html?hpid=topnews) about her from the Washington Post.

Dorwin Stoddard, 76.

Dorthy Murray, 76.

Phyllis Scheck, 79.

[Grace]

Super. Now you can start the "Its all Palin's fault" and maybe leave ol' George alone.



I never said anything of the sort, and you know it. I posted an article and then a quote. I provided the links. If you choose to attribute the thoughts in these articles to me, or anyone else on this board, you are way out of line.

[lizbud]

Lets find out what this morons real motivation was before we say stupid things like this, ok?

Blue, the 'voting from the rooftops' thing is INSANE. Killing a civilian who posed no threat to you is MURDER. Period.

So stop it, OK?


Agreed.:)

WE are ALL for free speeech in this country, that's part of what makes
this country great. The choice of words is important & does have major
influence on the already fragile state of mind of some individuals in our
society. We could do without the "lock & load" mentality speech coming
from some quarters of the political community.

[Puckstop31]

I never said anything of the sort, and you know it. I posted an article and then a quote. I provided the links. If you choose to attribute the thoughts in these articles to me, or anyone else on this board, you are way out of line.

Given the current context of the thread.... If you intent was not to 'blame' Mrs. Palin ( or Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, etc...) for this violence, what was the reason for sharing it?

Like you said, words matter, but the mindset of the reader matters too. A map with crosshairs on it can mean a lot of things to a lot of people. Sane people will read it one way and a insane person.... Who knows how they will read it? Do we all need to be careful as to not 'say' things so as to not motivate a crazy person to be...crazy? HOW do we do that?

What I am trying to get at it is lets not start making excuses for this guy already, or help the media turn this into a reason to force us apart.

[Puckstop31]

Agreed.:)

WE are ALL for free speeech in this country, that's part of what makes
this country great. The choice of words is important & does have major
influence on the already fragile state of mind of some individuals in our
society. We could do without the "lock & load" mentality speech coming
from some quarters of the political community.

So, which is it? FREE speech or being careful to not 'have major
influence on the already fragile state of mind of some individuals in our
society'?

I say this because "voting from the rooftops" is NOT a concept that is vague. Implying that a political figure's map was motivation for a murder.... Thats a little different.


And.... I am ALL for keeping the debate to the issues at hand.

[blue]

Lets find out what this morons real motivation was before we say stupid things like this, ok?

Blue, the 'voting from the rooftops' thing is INSANE. Killing a civilian who posed no threat to you is MURDER. Period.

So stop it, OK?

I would be beyond happy to be wrong.

[Grace]

Now that was interesting - especially for a one-time Neuro ICU nurse who very recently had a craniotomy.

There was just a press conference at University of Arizona. The main speakers were Dr. Peter Rhee, (http://uanews.org/node/16147) Medical Director of the Trauma Center, and Dr. Michael Lemole, Neurosurgeon.

Of the patients they received yesterday, one has been discharged and only one is still in ICU; the rest have improved enough to be transferred to floor care.

Congresswoman Giffords went to the OR just 38 minutes after hitting the ER door. The bullet ran the entire length of the left side of her head, from front to back. It did not cross hemispheres, nor did it cross the center of the brain. Both of the scenarios would have been much worse. She was following simple commands before and after the surgery. As the Neurosurgeon said, don't be deceived by the word simple. The brain has to process a lot to follow a command. That she can do this, makes them feel optimistic.

They did not put back the bone flap - that allows for swelling to occur. At some point in the future the flap will be replaced. I can tell you that my flap was the size of my surgeon's hand - that gives you an idea of the area. Hers might be larger.

She is in a medically-induced coma for the time being. Like being under anesthesia - they can wake her up to check neuro status.

So far - so good.

[Karen]

Not excusing the shooter, but it seems pretty obvious from his Youtube postings, only a few of which I have seen, that he is extremely mentally ill. His logic is illogical, and pulling a few sentences out that point in a single direction is misleading.

Do not read any politics into this, anyone could have been the target, regardless of ideology.

[lizbud]

Not excusing the shooter, but it seems pretty obvious from his Youtube postings, only a few of which I have seen, that he is extremely mentally ill. His logic is illogical, and pulling a few sentences out that point in a single direction is misleading.

Do not read any politics into this, anyone could have been the target, regardless of ideology.


Very true. We do not yet know the shooter's intent. He was very much
anti-government. His writings indicate that much, but we need a clearer
picture of the man himself to draw any conclusions.

This first person account of the incident is chilling. I don't think I would
have had the presence of mind to react as quickly. Thank heavens they did.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/01/09/arizona.shooting.wrestled.gunman/index.html?hpt=C1

[RICHARD]

Christina Green
Born September 11, 2001
Died January 8, 2011

Born into a world of terrorism
and died by it's hand.

Bless the children who will never
know a world without hate, anger,
evil and terror.
Amen.

[Grace]

Another medical update from The University of Arizona.

As the Neurosurgeon said - no change is good; and there has been no change in her condition.

Dr. Peter Rhee, Trauma Chief, is fantastic. I would love to have worked for someone like him.

Two patients have been discharged; two in ICU; six now on floor care. Several will have more surgery later this week.

[RICHARD]

Just a small observation about the AHs who are quick to twitter, blog or go on TV to blame everyone except themselves.


I was channel surfing and saw Bill Maher talking about why a Glock pistol is sold and what it's used for.

He stated that is not "for hunting, it's for hunting people..."

This coming from an idiot who has an armed body guard with him when he goes out in public.

You have to love morons........They seem to have an inflated sense of worth.

[Grace]

Good news -


Doctors at University Medical Center in Tucson said six patients remain at the hospital, two having been discharged since Monday. Besides Giffords, who remains in intensive care, three patients are in serious condition and two are in fair condition, said Peter Rhee, director of the hospital's emergency care unit.

"Everything is currently going well with all of those patients, and they're progressing as expected," Rhee said.

"I'm happy to say she's holding her own," neurosurgeon G. Michael Lemole Jr. said of Giffords. He said she continues to follow simple commands and is able to breathe on her own without a breathing tube, although doctors prefer to keep the tube in to protect her airway and prevent infection. Lemole also said that her sedation has been reduced.

"I'm very encouraged by the fact she's done so well," Lemole said. Given the traumatic nature of her injury - a 9mm bullet through the left side of her brain - "she has no right to look this good, and she does."

source - good article with info about other patients and victims. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/11/AR2011011103607.html?hpid=topnews)

[RICHARD]

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/red-eye/transcript/greg-alogue-rush-judgment

LOL, Jane Fonda.

Who rattled her cage?

And piers morgan?

ANother holier than thou guy that lives here in the United States and every time something happens, he looks down his nose at us stupid colonials. Go back home. Leave us alone.

We have made it thru 230 odd years of babysitting ourselves and all of sudden we can't figure out who and what we are?

moron....

So you let Camilia get poked with a stick and that is more civil than having a politico shot in the head?

Child?

Please.

--------------


Theknukleheads on BOTH SIDES are quick to paint the other side as a stupid, radical hate mongers w/disdain in their hearts and an agenda.

The more I listen to the media, the more I question the need for instant info and getting a scoop for us morons sitting in front of the tube.

Nasty business it is.


And god help the people who want unblemished truth and info.


I'll wait for the hour long special on 20/20 or TRU TV.;)

[Grace]

She opened her eyes!!


When Giffords opened her eyes the first time, her husband and the doctor in the room reacted with shock. Giffords' husband, Mark Kelly, asked Giffords if she could give a thumbs up. She didn't at first. But after a few minutes, she was able to reach toward him. "Her whole arm went up in the air," Wasserman Schultz said. "She started touching his wedding ring." By the time Giffords opened her eyes for a fifth time, she was able to keep them open for more than 30 seconds, Wasserman Schultz said. The group was in the room 10 to 15 minutes.

link (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/12/AR2011011207297.html?hpid=topnews)

I read that she also reached up and scratched her nose. Now, that might not mean much to most of you, but to medical personnel this is fantastic coming from a patient with a GSW to the head. It is purposeful movement.

I think the next really big test will be - can she talk.

[cassiesmom]

I heard on the news that she was responding to two part commands last night: "If you can hear me, give me a thumbs up." Which really has several parts- I have to hear you, figure out what you asked me to do, and then make the appropriate response to what you asked. And they're starting to wean her from the sedation, which is good.

Where did the bullet enter her brain? I've heard that it went in over her left eye, but I've also heard it went in by her left ear and exited over her left eye (i.e., the shooter was behind her). Has the shooter given any indication why he did it?

There were some pictures of the Green family at the little girl's funeral on the news last night too. How very sad. She barely got a chance to live her life.

[cassiesmom]

Gov. Quinn signed an increase in the state income tax (up to 5% individuals and 7% corporations) yesterday.

Today on the noon news ex-Gov. Blagojevich was quoted as saying he thinks the legislators were cowards for waiting until after the Nov. election to implement a tax increase, and if he were still governor he would review the state budget and make program cuts before raising taxes. ... Dude! You and your hyperinflated state budget are the reason Illinois got into this financial disaster in the first place!! Blago is s uch a poseur.

[Grace]

I heard on the news that she was responding to two part commands last night: "If you can hear me, give me a thumbs up." Which really has several parts- I have to hear you, figure out what you asked me to do, and then make the appropriate response to what you asked. And they're starting to wean her from the sedation, which is good.

Where did the bullet enter her brain? I've heard that it went in over her left eye, but I've also heard it went in by her left ear and exited over her left eye (i.e., the shooter was behind her). Has the shooter given any indication why he did it?

There were some pictures of the Green family at the little girl's funeral on the news last night too. How very sad. She barely got a chance to live her life.

The bullet went in over the left eye, and came out above the left ear. So her speech and right side movement might be affected, Initially it was said the bullet went from back to front - they have since changed that.

According to an article I read today, she is not moving her right hand nearly as well as the left one. Until she is extubated no one will know about her speech. The fact that she can follow commands, and initiate spontaneous movement - scratching her nose - is all very good news. She can understand what people are saying, and can process the words.

Senator Gillibrand spoke with Brian Williams yesterday.

"Mark was telling us just a couple days ago how he was telling the doctors, she will be walking in a few weeks, you'll see."

[Grace]

There are only 4 still in the hospital.

Here (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/blog-post/2011/01/arizona_shooting_victims_the_i.html) is an article about all those injured by gunfire.

[Karen]

Has the shooter given any indication why he did it?

The shooter is mentally ill, and it is likely even if he gives a "reason" it will not make sense to anyone but himself anyway. His YouTube posts are full of nonsensical statements and self-contradicting ones, so I doubt we will ever get a "reason why" that makes sense to anyone but himself.

[blue]

Ive cant say that Ive been happier to be wrong, but I am happy to be wrong. The A$$hat AZ shooter was not a Rooftop voter but a complete and total left leaning loon.

[Grace]

This (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/15/us/15medical.html?pagewanted=1) is a wonderful article from the NT Times - From Bloody Scene to E.R., Life-Saving Choices in Tucson. It may not be for everyone to read - those who faint at the sight of blood, for instance - but as a former ER nurse, I found it fascinating.

It's also in the NY Times, and apparently some have problems getting onto that particular site. If you can't get on, and are interested, PM me your email address, and I will have them send you the link.

(Thinking of the other nurses who post here.)

[lizbud]

Does this sound like anyone you know? They are always the victim.:rolleyes:

I guess, in this case, words do have very real consequences.


http://www.theindychannel.com/news/26499171/detail.html

[Grace]

Does this sound like anyone you know? They are always the victim.:rolleyes:


Absolutely!

[blue]

Michelle Malkin

Lead Story
Blame Righty: A condensed history
By Michelle Malkin • January 14, 2011 08:54 AM


Image via Zazzle

On Monday, as the progressive smear machine worked overtime to pin the horrific Tucson massacre on conservatives and to squelch political opposition by targeting Tea Party/limited-government rhetoric, I published “The progressive “climate of hate:” An illustrated primer, 2000-2010.”

Today’s column provides another primer for the amnesia-wracked blamestream media on just how widespread the Blame Righty meme has been over the past two years. Regular readers of this blog are well aware of this expanding litany outlined below. You are also well aware of the cunning ability of the Left to hinder exposure of this sordid history by accusing its chroniclers and whistle-blowers of “playing the victim.” Sarah Palin is the most prominent conservative to encounter this tactic, but she is by no means the first conservative public figure to experience it. Kabuki outrage over her use of the term “blood libel” is an intended distraction from the history outlined below that undergirds her message. The political speech suppressors have honed their craft long and well.

The solution isn’t to “tone it down” and turn the other cheek, but to confront them forcefully with the facts — and to fight back unapologetically against insidious efforts to diminish the law-abiding, constitutionally-protected, peaceful, vigorous political speech and activism of the Right in the name of repressive “civility.”

***

Blame Righty: A condensed history
by Michelle Malkin
Creators Syndicate
Copyright 2010

I agree with President Obama. When it comes to politicizing random violence, he and his supporters have been “far too eager to lay the blame for all that ails the world at the feet of those who think differently than” they do. Recognition is the first step toward reconciliation. It’s time to recognize the poisonous pervasiveness of the Blame Righty meme.

For the past two years, Democrat officials, liberal activists, and journalists have jumped to libelous conclusions about individual shooting sprees committed by mentally unstable loners with incoherent delusions all over the ideological map. The White House now pledges to swear off “pointing fingers or assigning blame.” Alas, the Obama administration’s political and media foot soldiers have proven themselves incapable of such restraint.



In April 2009, a disgruntled, unemployed loser shot and killed three Pittsburgh police officers in a horrifying bloodbath. The gunman, Richard Poplawski, was a dropout from the Marines who threw a food tray at a drill instructor and had beaten his girlfriend. Was this deranged shooter who pulled the trigger to blame? Nope. Despite evidence that Poplawski’s homicidal, racist tendencies manifested themselves years before Obama took office, lefty publications asserted that the real culprits of the spree were the “heated, apocalyptic rhetoric of the anti-Obama forces” (according to mainstream liberal Atlantic Monthly pundit Andrew Sullivan), along with Fox News and Glenn Beck (according to mainstream liberal journalist Steve Benen of the Washington Monthly online).



That same month, a sick, evil man named Jiverly Voong ambushed an immigration center in Binghamton, New York. Recently fired from his job, Voong murdered 13 people, critically wounded four others, and then committed suicide. The instant psychologists of the Left knew nothing about the disgruntled man of Vietnamese descent of undetermined political affiliation. But within hours of the shooting, liberal mega-website Huffington Post commenters had overwhelmingly convicted GOP Rep. Michele Bachmann of Minnesota, the National Rifle Association, Fox News, Lou Dobbs, and yours truly. Liberal radio host Alan Colmes pointed his finger at the “huge anti–immigrant backlash in this country” – never mind that tens of millions of legal immigrants and naturalized citizens have coped with hardship, overcome racism, and embraced assimilation without going bloody bonkers.



In June 2009, a depraved, elderly anti-Semite named James von Brunn gunned down a security guard at the Holocaust Museum in D.C. Washington Post blogger Greg Sargent and lefty Center for American Progress think-tank fellow Matthew Yglesias immediately invoked the Obama administration’s report on right-wing extremism, leading to a wider chorus of condemnations against the Tea Party, talk radio, and the entire GOP. The truth? Von Brunn was an unstable, equal-opportunity hater and 9/11 Truther conspiracy loon who bashed Jews and Christians, George W. Bush and Fox News, and had also threatened the conservative Weekly Standard magazine.



In late August 2009, as lawmakers faced citizen revolts at health care town halls nationwide, the Colorado Democratic Party decried a window-smashing vandalism attack at its Denver headquarters. The state party chair, Pat Waak, singled out Tea Party activists and blamed “people opposed to health care” for the attack. The perpetrator, Maurice Schwenkler, turned out to be a far Left transgender activist/single-payer anarchist who had worked for a labor union-tied political committee and canvassed for a Democrat candidate.



In September 2009, Bill Sparkman, a federal U.S. Census worker, was found dead in a secluded rural Kentucky cemetery with the word “Fed” scrawled on his chest with a rope around his neck. The Atlantic Monthly’s Andrew Sullivan rushed to indict “Southern populist terrorism, whipped up by the GOP and its Fox and talk radio cohorts” in an online magazine post titled “No Suicide,” which decried the “Kentucky lynching.” Liberal author Richard Benjamin blamed “anti-government” bile. New York magazine fingered conservative talk radio giant Rush Limbaugh, “conservative media personalities, websites, and even members of Congress.” So, who killed Bill Sparkman? Bill Sparkman. He killed himself and deliberately manufactured a hate crime hoax as part of an insurance scam to benefit his surviving son.





In February 2010, ticking time-bomb professor Amy Bishop gunned down three of her colleagues at University of Alabama-Huntsville and suicide pilot Joseph Andrew Stack flew a stolen small plane into an Austin, Texas, office complex that contained an Internal Revenue Service office. Mainstream journalists from Washington Post columnist Jonathan Capehart to Time magazine reporter Hilary Hylton leaped forward to tie the crimes to Tea Party rhetoric. Never mind that Bishop was an Obama-worshiping academic with a lifelong history of violence or that Stack was another Bush-hater outraged about everything from George W. Bush to the American medical system to the evils of capitalism to the city of Austin, the Catholic Church, and airlines.



In May 2010, liberal New York City mayor Michael Bloomberg tried to preemptively pin the Times Square bombing attempt on “someone with a political agenda that doesn’t like the health care bill or something.” The culprit was unrepentant Muslim jihadist Faisal Shahzad.



In August 2010, Democrat supporters of Missouri Rep. Russ Carnahan blamed a “firebombing” at the congressman’s St. Louis office on Tea Party suspects. The real perpetrator? Disgruntled progressive activist Chris Powers, enraged over a paycheck dispute.

President Obama wisely counseled the nation this week at the Tucson massacre memorial that “Bad things happen, and we must guard against simple explanations in the aftermath.” But as the progressive Left’s smear-stained recent history shows, criminalizing conservatism is a hard habit to break.

...

[Grace]

From the Arizona Republic



Doctors performed a procedure Saturday morning that helps protect U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' airway but frees her from a ventilator that she's been on since being wounded in a shooting a week ago.

Doctors removed a breathing tube from the 40-year-old Arizona congresswoman and replaced it with a tracheotomy tube in her windpipe, according to an update from University Medical Center.

Giffords has been breathing on her own for several days, but doctors kept the breathing tube in place as a precaution, Dr. Peter Rhee, University Medical Center's chief of trauma, said Friday.

Surgeons also inserted a feeding tube to provide nutrition to the wounded congresswoman.

Both procedures are not uncommon among brain-injured patients in the intensive-care unit, according to the report. Giffords is still listed in critical condition.

Another shooting victim, James Tucker, was discharged Saturday, leaving only Giffords and two other victims of the Jan. 8 rampage as patients at the medical center.

Susan Hileman and George Morris remained in the hospital Saturday. Both were listed in good condition.

A week after Giffords was shot in the head at point-blank range in a rampage that left six dead and 13 wounded, she continued to improve significantly and is able to track with her eyes and has the ability to move her arms and legs, doctors reported Friday.

Wednesday marked the first time that Giffords opened her eyes spontaneously. On Thursday, she began a physical-therapy routine after showing doctors she could lift both arms and legs when held upright by medical staff.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/15/20110115gabrielle-giffords-off-ventilator-brk15-ON.html#ixzz1B8tQyFnN



Slow, steady progress for all of the victims.

[blue]

Slow, steady progress for all of the victims.

All of the victims?

[Karen]

All of the victims?

All the surviving victims, one would think that goes without saying, blue. I am glad Rep. Gifford is making progress, but hope everyone knows it will be a long, slow road - brain injuries are tricky beasts, and no matter how many media folks claim "miracle" it is good medical care as well as her own strength that are helping her through this.

[blue]

All the surviving victims.

If only that was what she said. Unfortunately there seems to be only one victim she is concerned about. If she wants to make a "Medical Marvel" thread about Gifford's injury that would be in better taste as it is no longer political. Besides the guy was a nut and didnt commit a politically motivated crime.

Rep Giffords isnt the first person to survive a GSW to the head. People have survived much worse injuries and lived to tell about it, so I agree this isnt a miracle.

The President turned the Arizona Memorial into a Pep/Campaign Rally, including TShirts. Never let a crisis, in this case a tragedy, go to waste.

[Bonny]

The only thing that makes any common sense in all of this is the lady who lost her mother in the shooting. Jared needed help & never received any, it could of been prevented was her thought. She forgives Jared for shooting & killing her mother.

Then there is the fella that everyone is fussing about with the magical announcers voice that is getting help from the all corners of the U.S. & even going into rehab. It is like what are the priorities in this country of ours? :confused:

[Grace]

I think this is interesting - wonder what will happen when the event happens?

Momentum builds for bipartisan State of the Union seating
(http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/47630.html)

[Grace]

Arizona shooting victim arrested (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/01/15/AR2011011503603.html?hpid=topnews)

I think this is the same guy who went to the home of the shooter's parents the day he got out of the hospital. He didn't see them though.

[blue]

I just had the privilege of spending a couple of hours listening to a USMC Gunny, and twins who served in the Army during Viet Nam. I believe those three men have more spine then all of the lefties on this forum.

[Karen]

Blue, what do you have against people just because their politics differ from yours? Just because you consider someone "left wing" does not mean they are any less of a human being with rights opinions and strength. There are people from either "left" or "right" and no political parties in the military who put their lives on the line to defend our country.

[blue]

Blue, what do you have against people just because their politics differ from yours? Just because you consider someone "left wing" does not mean they are any less of a human being with rights opinions and strength. There are people from either "left" or "right" and no political parties in the military who put their lives on the line to defend our country.

I have nothing against people who have political leanings that differ from mine. My best friend is an Obama loving sycophant.

I am considered a right wing hate monger among my punk rock friends. They still like me though.

[Karen]

Then why do you say "those three men have more spine then all of the lefties on this forum."

[blue]

Then why do you say "those three men have more spine then all of the lefties on this forum."

Because its true.

Those three men will fight for your Right to be wrong.

[Karen]

Because its true.

Just because you believe it to be true, does not mean it is.

[SinbadsMom]

Ive cant say that Ive been happier to be wrong, but I am happy to be wrong. The A$$hat AZ shooter was not a Rooftop voter but a complete and total left leaning loon.

He's mentally ill, but not "left leaning." Neither his infamous books list (which includes Libertarian/Tea Party idol Ayn Rand and is all over the ideological map) nor his weird rants suggest that he's either left or right, and while some themes he hit on again and again in his rants (the anti-government, gold-standard themes) would sound rightwing to most (they're definitely not leftwing themes), some of the links below show those rants plus his obsession with grammar point more toward influence by an ideology that some would call far-right but others would say is so extreme it's outside the standard political spectrum.

http://www.salon.com/books/laura_miller/2011/01/09/loughner_book_list/index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/us/10shooter.html?_r=2&pagewanted=2&hp

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/sovereign-citizens-jared-lee-loughner

http://blogs.forbes.com/janetnovack/2011/01/12/expert-loughner-rants-sound-like-sovereign-citizen-beliefs/

This is the Wikipedia article on the extremist whose ideas on grammar and government mind control Loughner seemed to be parroting. It says there that Miller is appalled by Loughner's actions and doesn't think his work inspired the shootings, but he does admit he thinks Loughner had been on his website:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller


My thoughts and prayers are with Loughner's victims, their families and friends, their community, and our entire nation.

And I do think we need to tone down the political rhetoric in this country, especially the more violent talk. Whatever the political leanings of an unstable individual, constant talk of violence -- and especially self-righteous justifications of violence or suggestions that there's anything heroic about violence -- do make it more likely that unstable individuals will become violent. The over-the-top rhetoric can make people sound foolish, too, to everyone whose views don't exactly mesh with theirs. We need more open-mindedness and less ideology. More listening and less rhetoric.

And I'd hope pet lovers would understand this. After all, we know what constant exposure to displays of violence, threats of violence, verbal intimidation and so on can do to pets. They affect people as well.

[RICHARD]

YEars ago I was on a jury and the case involved a guy who wasn't left, right, middle or independent.

He was an effing loon, who lived w/his parents.

Both parents had problems with this idiot and the reason the case went to court was that the dad took a gun away from the son-barely adult- put it into the trunk of a car, then took the keys to the trunk of the car and put them BACK ON THE HOOK IN THE KICHEN.

The son took the keys from the hook, took out the gun and threatened the parents.

-------------------

The parents called the cops and the son was arrested, The Rub?

If we came back with a 'guilty', there would have been incarceration and a mental eval.

The parents wanted him to go to jail to get help, because as an adult, he had to choice of getting help or not.

The case was based on his threatening the parents, the defense was all about the parents using reasonable care in securing the gun.

--------------

Because I am not a parent, my opinions isn't worth shiat, so...


Many of these things happen because parents will not or cannot get involved with their kids and their lives.

Especially when they live at home and have an inkling about who they are and how they are acting in and out of the house.


NOT blaming the parents, but have to wonder how much they did know and how they approached the subject.

Eight days after the shooting we STILL ARE TRYING TO BLAME SOMEONE OR SOMETHING for the event.


Stop.

Instead of looking into the mirror, we still point fingers at everyone bur ourselves. I do not mean each of us personally, but the morons who take the lead and start spewing blame and stirring up the crap.


Take a listen at any news outlet and instead of moving on to how an idiot can get a gun and massacre people?

We sit on our couches and try to figure out if it's a pill popping radio host, an moronic, sophmoric knucklehead that wishes us "good luck' at the end of his program, or the pot head on HBO that uses bad humor as 'real opinion'.


Here's the deal.

Bad shiat happens and when we cannot get over blaming each other WHY it happens, it will go on and on.


Nothing will change, sadly, this will happen again and we will all stop for a second and start fingerpointing all over again.


Guns do not kill people, bullets do.
Unless you are unfortunate enough to get pistolwhipped about the skull..

[blue]

His book list included Lefty favorites like Animal Farm, Mein Kampf, and The Communist Manifesto. He was also a heavy pot smoker, a liberal past time. He also acted out what many lefties had published over the last decade, a violent outburst.

Hence he is a left leaning loon.


He's mentally ill, but not "left leaning." Neither his infamous books list (which includes Libertarian/Tea Party idol Ayn Rand and is all over the ideological map) nor his weird rants suggest that he's either left or right, and while some themes he hit on again and again in his rants (the anti-government, gold-standard themes) would sound rightwing to most (they're definitely not leftwing themes), some of the links below show those rants plus his obsession with grammar point more toward influence by an ideology that some would call far-right but others would say is so extreme it's outside the standard political spectrum.

http://www.salon.com/books/laura_miller/2011/01/09/loughner_book_list/index.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/10/us/10shooter.html?_r=2&pagewanted=2&hp

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/01/sovereign-citizens-jared-lee-loughner

http://blogs.forbes.com/janetnovack/2011/01/12/expert-loughner-rants-sound-like-sovereign-citizen-beliefs/

This is the Wikipedia article on the extremist whose ideas on grammar and government mind control Loughner seemed to be parroting. It says there that Miller is appalled by Loughner's actions and doesn't think his work inspired the shootings, but he does admit he thinks Loughner had been on his website:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wynn_Miller


My thoughts and prayers are with Loughner's victims, their families and friends, their community, and our entire nation.

And I do think we need to tone down the political rhetoric in this country, especially the more violent talk. Whatever the political leanings of an unstable individual, constant talk of violence -- and especially self-righteous justifications of violence or suggestions that there's anything heroic about violence -- do make it more likely that unstable individuals will become violent. The over-the-top rhetoric can make people sound foolish, too, to everyone whose views don't exactly mesh with theirs. We need more open-mindedness and less ideology. More listening and less rhetoric.

And I'd hope pet lovers would understand this. After all, we know what constant exposure to displays of violence, threats of violence, verbal intimidation and so on can do to pets. They affect people as well.

[SinbadsMom]

Sigh. Your mind is already made up, and I wouldn't even know where to start debating with anyone who thinks Mein Kampf is a "lefty favorite."

Anyway, the links are there for people who are more interested in additional information.

The NY Times published a detailed look at what's known about Loughner in a long article the other day:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/us/16loughner.html

Again, this is someone who

is mentally ill;

has abused both alcohol and drugs (according to his friends he'd given up drugs years ago but continued to drink, and in fact he told the cab driver the day of the shooting that he drank too much);

is obsessed with guns, to the point of getting tattoos of bullets;

has felt rejected by his father, his schools, and the US military;

and has been caught up for years in weird anti-government rhetoric and conspiracy theories, especially ideas associated with fringe groups that are sometimes described as off the political spectrum and sometimes described as far right.

This is what we know about him. It's tragic that he didn't get psychiatric help, and that he had access to guns.

[Bonny]

Sigh. Your mind is already made up, and I wouldn't even know where to start debating with anyone who thinks Mein Kampf is a "lefty favorite."

Anyway, the links are there for people who are more interested in additional information.

The NY Times published a detailed look at what's known about Loughner in a long article the other day:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/16/us/16loughner.html

Again, this is someone who

is mentally ill;

has abused both alcohol and drugs (according to his friends he'd given up drugs years ago but continued to drink, and in fact he told the cab driver the day of the shooting that he drank too much);

is obsessed with guns, to the point of getting tattoos of bullets;

has felt rejected by his father, his schools, and the US military;

and has been caught up for years in weird anti-government rhetoric and conspiracy theories, especially ideas associated with fringe groups that are sometimes described as off the political spectrum and sometimes described as far right.

This is what we know about him. It's tragic that he didn't get psychiatric help, and that he had access to guns.

Mentally Ill Is What It Is All About. Jared needed the help & didn't get it. Everyone that knew Jared saw it coming & did NOTHING.

Is that where the Bill of Rights Comes in?

[lizbud]

Is that where the Bill of Rights Comes in?


Could you please explain what you mean with this statement?


He was a regular poster to several online sites where a lot of people
were confused by his online ramblings & rants. They suspected he was "off" but what could they have done about it, but avoid him?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/14/arizona.shooting.website/index.html?hpt=Sbin

[Bonny]

Could you please explain what you mean with this statement?


He was a regular poster to several online sites where a lot of people
were confused by his online ramblings & rants. They suspected he was "off" but what could they have done about it, but avoid him?

http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/01/14/arizona.shooting.website/index.html?hpt=Sbin

Am talking about family, friends, people that knew him that saw this big change in him. What about the school that said he needed mental help? No one helped him. He surely was no longer able to help himself.

Jared had the right to carry a gun but he abused that right. Jared had all the Freedoms the Bill of Rights allows all of us to have & he abused them because he IS mentally ill. Everyone else is getting political so why not add the Bill of Rights if you want to pin it down to something really political.

[Grace]

The State of Arizona has very lenient laws regarding involuntary commitment.


Arizona has one of the least restrictive laws when it comes to detaining apparently mentally ill people against their will. Under the state's broad involuntary-commitment statute, the government can mandate in-patient treatment for anyone determined to be "persistently or acutely disabled." That could include a broad range of seemingly troubled individuals. By comparison, many other states limit involuntary commitment only to people shown to be a danger to themselves or others, or who are found to be completely unable to take care of themselves.


Arizona also goes farther than many other states in defining who may initiate involuntary-commitment proceedings. In Arizona, virtually anyone who had suspected that Loughner had mental problems and needed help could have filed an application to a state-licensed healthcare agency for a court-ordered evaluation. Some states require that the application be initiated by someone close to the troubled person, among other discrete categories.

source (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE70C6JQ20110113)

[Edwina's Secretary]

...some years ago, when I was working downtown Chicago, we had an employee who clearly was...well nuts. He complained of little German men who were following him around and some other strange things. I am not sure of whether he was "Righty" or "Lefty" but he did name the Klu Klux Klan and the American Nazi party - along with every employer he ever had and some others in his "pro se" lawsuit about conspiracies.

I worked with our attorney and his parents to get him involuntarily committed. It is not easy (nor should it be or everyone would be getting their ex-spouses or annoying neighbor or the like committed.;);))

It costs money to do it. And it is frightening. During the process there were a couple of occasions I was very nervous - as the company representative.

At that time, in Illinois, an involuntary commitment was only good for seven days. Which means - he was back out a week later. And I was again a little nervous.

So..it is easy to say "someone" should have had him committed - much, much more difficult to be that "someone."

[RICHARD]

My kook is bigger than YOUR kook.:rolleyes::(


I walked around the corner at work and saw a reserve cop that worked with us, painting faces on her hollow point .32 ammo.

I don't fear guns, it's the morons than own them, that I fear.;)


-------


If I do get shot by some knucklehead, I pray he and takes me down.

None of this, 15 months in the hospital and 5 years of therapy to learn to walk again nonsense.

The treatment is worse than getting shot.

No, listening to "opinion/news" shows is.

[blue]

Sigh. Your mind is already made up, and I wouldn't even know where to start debating with anyone who thinks Mein Kampf is a "lefty favorite."

I havent "made up" anything. I also havent made up my mind based on what the MSM wants me to believe.

The Lefts Decade of Hate. Link (http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/).

[lizbud]

Ah, welcome to the crazy world of Michelle Malkin.:rolleyes: No thanks.!!!

[RICHARD]

Ah, welcome to the crazy world of Michelle Malkin.:rolleyes: No thanks.!!!

Hee hee,

Keith and Rachel aren't shining lights on the 'entertainment' planet, either.

Good night and good luck.:rolleyes:;)

[SinbadsMom]

You want links, blue?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3790402

http://pr.thinkprogress.org/2010/10/pr20101028

http://mediamatters.org/research/201010260050

And look at these quotes in particular:


1. Rush Limbaugh: "I tell people don't kill all the liberals. Leave enough so we can have two on every campus – living fossils – so we will never forget what these people stood for."

2. Senator Phil Gramm: "We're going to keep building the party until we're hunting Democrats with dogs."

3. Rep. James Hansen on Bill Clinton: Get rid of the guy. Impreach him, censure him, assassinate him."

4. John Derbyshire intimated in the National Review that because Chelsea Clinton had "the taint," she should "be killed."

5. Ann Coulter: "We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too."

6. Ann Coulter: "My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times building."

7. Bill O'Reilly: "ll those clowns over at the liberal radio network, we could incarcerate them immediately. Will you have that done, please? Send over the FBI and just put them in chains."

8. Clear Channel radio host Glenn Beck said he was "thinking about killing Michael Moore" and pondered whether "I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it," before concluding: "No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out -- is this wrong?"


Malkin is whining about Obama saying he wants to know "whose ass to kick" after the BP oil disaster.

How does that compare to Limbaugh joking about killing liberals, or Glenn Beck musing crazily about killing Michael Moore, or a writer for the National Review saying Chelsea Clinton should be killed because she's a Clinton, or Ann Coulter saying it's a shame Timothy McVeigh didn't bomb the NY Times building?

I don't even like the "whose ass to kick" rhetoric. I wish we could get away from all the silly macho talk that too many politicians are too fond of.

But that's a long way from the most important rightwing pundits talking wistfully of killing liberals and bombing mainstream, centrist publications that aren't rightwing enough for them.

And then there's the "liberal hunting license" graphic that many on the right are so fond of:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/1/10/935046/-Liberal-hunting-license

Variations of which are offered by various rightwing sites on all sorts of items, from mugs to T-shirts to bumper stickers.

Sick messages. Violent messages. Not in any way funny, except to sick people.

Those have been around for years. Here's a 2004 Free Republic thread about them.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1158744/posts

And the Google cache of that in case the link doesn't work -- FR is having computer problems and that link seems to work only about half the time:

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:uH6XtVeG4ocJ:www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1158744/posts+liberal+hunting+license+not+funny&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

There's nothing comparable on the left, whether similarly violent rhetoric from lots of liberal pundits, or sick "jokes" about hunting conservatives.

Yes, both sides need to tone it down. But the side that finds "liberal hunting license" items amusing needs to tone it down more. That sort of thing can incite real violence by unstable individuals.

And honestly, I'd have to question the mental stability of anyone who thinks the "liberal hunting license" items are amusing.

As for Michelle Malkin -- I think this column by Ezra Klein on her "thuggery" says all that needs to be said about her and her own willingness to make people targets:

http://www.prospect.org/csnc/blogs/ezraklein_archive?month=04&year=2006&base_name=hunting_slugs


Malkin published their personal information on her website, prompting her hordes of orcish mouth-breathers to brandish their pitchforks and inundate the unsuspecting students with death threats (some of which you can read here). When the students frantically called on Malkin to remove their numbers, she posted their contact information again.

Think of that. She knew they were getting death threats from her followers, so she posted their contact info again.

I'm done with this discussion. I'm disgusted by any attempt to justify violent rhetoric, by either side.

Cindy

[lizbud]

Hee hee,

Keith and Rachel aren't shining lights on the 'entertainment' planet, either.

Good night and good luck.:rolleyes:;)



Keith & Rachel are news commentators, not elected officials with a vote
in Congress.:eek: There is a big difference.

[RICHARD]

Keith & Rachel are news commentators, not elected officials with a vote
in Congress.:eek: There is a big difference.

MIchelle Malkin is the same kind of arsehat...

----------------


What about this kind of hate/prejudicial speech?

http://www.bing.com/videos/watch/video/animal-house-germans-bombed-pearl-harbor/3c6af33e704d6514f5733c6af33e704d6514f573-415663653481?q=the+germans+bombed+pearl+harbor&FORM=VIRE3



ONE THING about 'qouting quotes' is that it lessens an arguement.

I really don't care who blogs or spews. It's so much funner to hear what a person says.

Not some dumb talking head that sits in front of a laptop next to the pool or some other idiot that sells 'premium subscriptions' to their websites.

I think the days of thinking for ourselves is over-may as well just post a link and not say anything?:(

[RICHARD]

Sigh. Your mind is already made up, and I wouldn't even know where to start debating with anyone who thinks Mein Kampf is a "lefty favorite."



It could also be a 'righty' favorite,


It depends on which hand you hold your KINDLE in?:confused::rolleyes:;)

[lizbud]

CALIFORNIA, LAND OF THE EASILY AMUSED ...... Must be true, :)

[RICHARD]

CALIFORNIA, LAND OF THE EASILY AMUSED ...... Must be true, :)

LOL, it's not just my STATE...It's my planet.:D;)

[Bonny]

Yah! MARS :D;)

[blue]

You want links, blue?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3790402

http://pr.thinkprogress.org/2010/10/pr20101028

http://mediamatters.org/research/201010260050

And look at these quotes in particular:

No.

Seriously. You are linking DU, Think Progress and Media Matters and expect to be taken seriously?

Democratic Underground has threatened every Right Wing pundit of note with harm and/or death. Any attempt of logic or sanity in their discussion threads will get you banned.

Think Progress and Media Matters are not known for their interest in facts either.


I'm disgusted by any attempt to justify violent rhetoric.

And yet that is exactly what you have done.

[Grace]

Has it really been that long ago . . . . 50 years? I remember watching on TV - a cold, snowy day in January.

January 20, 1961 - Washington, D.C. The Inauguration of John F. Kennedy.


And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you -- ask what you can do for your country.

http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/jfk-inaug.htm

[blue]

Ask what you can do for your country.

Fewer and fewer Americans are asking themselves that.

[Bonny]

Has it really been that long ago . . . . 50 years? I remember watching on TV - a cold, snowy day in January.

January 20, 1961 - Washington, D.C. The Inauguration of John F. Kennedy.



http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/jfk-inaug.htm

Those were the good old days.:D Now it is more like what can my country do for me. :eek:

[lizbud]

Has it really been that long ago . . . . 50 years? I remember watching on TV - a cold, snowy day in January.

January 20, 1961 - Washington, D.C. The Inauguration of John F. Kennedy.


http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/jfk-inaug.htm


JFK's election was my first voting experience. It was a great time to be
young, hopeful and expect great things for America. My Irish Grandmother
was so excited to see an Irish Catholic man make it to the White House.
She knew what it was like when the Irish were not so welcomed in this
country. We were all so proud.:)

[RICHARD]

See Rahm
See Rahm move to Chicago.
Rahm want to be Mayor.
See Rahm Run.
Run, Rahm, Run!

Oh no.
Rahm cannot run!
Rahm got jacked by the appellate court.
Rahm will appeal again.
Is Rahm done?

Oh no.
Rahm has donations
He will use that money to appeal.
Appeal, Rahm, appeal!

See Chi-town.
Chi-town politics are fun.
Rahm and Chi-town politics are fun.

See Puff.
See Rahm puff up his chest.
See Rahm try to run for Mayor.
Run, Rahm, run!

See Spot.
See Chi-town's political history.
See Chi-town's spotty political history.
Run, Rham, run!;)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Last week was a bad week - albeit a short week - for the LA schools.

One young man brought his backpack to class and set it down a bit too hard - causing the loaded handgun in it to discharge - grazing one classmate in the neck and causing a critical head wound to another.

A run of the mill "bring your handgun to school" at another campus and a school cop who responded to a call about some riffraff breaking into cars. He was surprised by the bad guy's "one shot to the chest greeting" but thankfully, was saved by his body armor.

The bad guy was thought to have run onto another school campus. The school was on lock down for hours while 350 cops searched the area.

Three "lock downs" in a week. How sad. I remember fire drills and tornado drills and even - during the Cuba Missile Crisis - Nuclear Attach Drills.

Now students learn about lock downs and metal detectors and body armor. The "enemy from within" instead of the "enemy from outside."

Good training I suppose for going to the Safeway.

[RICHARD]

New LAUSD uniform policy.

http://www.internationalbodyarmor.com/BodyArmor/HardArmor/TitaniumPlate/

[Edwina's Secretary]

Odd. Just as I cannot imagine making jokes about Christina Taylor Green, I struggle to find the humor in the violence school children in LA are experiencing.


Guess I just don't see the "funny" in children being shot.

[cassiesmom]

New LAUSD uniform policy.

http://www.internationalbodyarmor.com/BodyArmor/HardArmor/TitaniumPlate/

Sign up the Chicago Public Schools too...

Public Schools CEO (Ron) Huberman says this year was slightly safer for students. 218 student shootings were reported this school year compared to 258 last year. Thirty two students were killed last school year, 27 this school year.
Source: http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local-beat/City-Violence-96891009.html#ixzz1C0zsmNu4

This year is safer?! Are you kidding me? Students are getting killed here! This is just wrong. In some neighborhoods it seems like body armor is what it would take to get them safely to and from school. They're getting shot on the streets, they are getting shot on their porches, in cars and even in their homes. They're not safe indoors, let alone outdoors. It's sad and scary.

[Grace]

New LAUSD uniform policy.

http://www.internationalbodyarmor.com/BodyArmor/HardArmor/TitaniumPlate/

That is way out of line; even for you, Richard.

[RICHARD]

That is way out of line; even for you, Richard.

Should I have posted the site to Hard Corps or Second Chance?

For the record?

It's not bullet proof, it's bullet resistant and you can stab a person, wearing a Kevlar vest, with a knife.

The LAUSD cop that was shot didn't respond to a call, he was on patrol and caught the guy in the act.

The Accidental Shooter is going to be charged with bringing a gun onto campus - NOT FOR SHOOTING the two kids.

A rep for the school/PD made that statement on Friday.

The effing rules give knuckleheads like that a free pass, just like giving ALL THE KIDS on the t-ball team a trophy after the season is over.

Two other students were also arrested for helping Bat Masterson change his clothes and give him a packpack so he could try to get off campus.

Not very smart when you have your homework with your name inside the BP w/your gun.

-------------

Nothing like this EVER happens in Orange County.

NEVER.

[Edwina's Secretary]

So who called it "bullet proof"??

That's right...no one.

But certainly an attempt to avoid explaining what you find amusing about children being exposed to handgun violence regardless of what county or state or country they live in.

[RICHARD]

Please,

Until you have been shot at you really won't find humor in anything.

After that, the worst effing day of your life is a piece of cake.

Try it sometime.

It's really refreshing.

[RICHARD]

What?

NO Keithy Olbermann stories?

I was shocked to see him go. I found him to be a refreshing Snarkicist and enjoyed watching the spittle gather at the corners of his mouth.

Two years of no TV time...he should be refreshed and raring to go in 2013, right on time to see the next president sworn in.

--------------

I really enjoyed the news blurb this morning and the sock puppet on FOX saying that Rahm should be allowed to run for mayor.

His service in D.C. was just like a soldier serving his country overseas.

Even the prez says he should be able to, I am sure they will find a way to get RE on the ballot.

When you can spend campaign contributions on lawyers?

Why not?


MSNBC news = puppetheads.

That Mika Bzerthasgjrjghali in the morning is a real peach.

If that idiot can be on TV, I am submitting my app ASAP.

Is Rachel M the ratings leader now?

---------

Drinking game tonight?

Every time BO says "Create Jobs".

[Edwina's Secretary]

You may be watching too many Bruce Willis movies. I feel fairly certain Christina Green found many humorous things before the day she was shot at.

[lizbud]

Please,

Until you have been shot at you really won't find humor in anything.

After that, the worst effing day of your life is a piece of cake.

Try it sometime.

It's really refreshing.


and you have been shot at??? Tell us all about it.

The protective vest didn't help this officer.:(

http://www.theindychannel.com/news/26606103/detail.html

I believe people will keep abusing their "gun rights" until America finally
says enough is enough and enact stronger gun control laws in this country.

[RICHARD]

We were out target shooting.

Some morons were screwing around and shot at us, my BIL was shot in the back.

I had about 5 shots over and into the sand berm that I was lying behind-yes, I was cowering.

[RICHARD]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7e/Die_hard.jpg/220px-Die_hard.jpg
Distributed by 20th Century Fox

[Grace]

JFK's election was my first voting experience. It was a great time to be
young, hopeful and expect great things for America. My Irish Grandmother
was so excited to see an Irish Catholic man make it to the White House.
She knew what it was like when the Irish were not so welcomed in this
country. We were all so proud.:)

I didn't turn 21 until a few months after JFK was inaugurated. I would have voted for him.

[RICHARD]

Yea!!!!!


Da Bears didn't win....but this ain't no football game.....

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/01/25/rahm-emanuel-back-on-chicago-mayoral-ballot-for-now-as-court-iss/

[RICHARD]

Lovely,

This is our Sputnik Moment.


No, We have had Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Voyager, Skylab, Vikings, the Shuttles, the IES, the two Mars Landers and a whole arse full technology that WE PIONEERED and BO is going to use a POS Russian satellite as an example?


Or, is he harking back to the days when we got our rears handed to us by someone else and we go into freakout mode and start building stuff, willy nilly?

LOL,
I just looked SM up and it funnier than what I wrote.

Sounds like he's on board with the Old Soviet Union being more bitchin' than we were.....;)

[RICHARD]

The guy in the purple tie over the prez' left shoulder looked like he wanted to cry.:confused:;)

[Grace]

The guy in the purple tie over the prez' left shoulder looked like he wanted to cry.:confused:;)

That was John Boehner, Speaker of the House.

[caseysmom]

I loved loved loved the line about the winner of the science fair should be cheered as much as the winner of the super bowl.

[RICHARD]

That was John Boehner, Speaker of the House.

Grace,
I know who he is, I was making a joke.;)

I thought he may have it in him to try and steal BO's thunder by putting on a sobfest.:D

[blue]

The guy in the purple tie over the prez' left shoulder looked like he wanted to cry.:confused:;)


That was John Boehner, Speaker of the House.

He was fighting the "Stand and Clap" device the previous Speaker of the House installed. She couldnt feel normal prompts because of her unusual amount of Botox treatments, so she had a broken broom handle with splinters installed to prompt her like a Jack in the Box. Unfortunately Boehner could. The libs where to cheap to remove Pelosi's splintery piece of wood prompter.

[RICHARD]

He was fighting the "Stand and Clap" device the previous Speaker of the House installed. She couldnt feel normal prompts because of her unusual amount of Botox treatments, so she had a broken broom handle with splinters installed to prompt her like a Jack in the Box. Unfortunately Boehner could. The libs where to cheap to remove Pelosi's splintery piece of wood prompter.

I thought it was taser sewn into the seat.;)

[cassiesmom]

I loved loved loved the line about the winner of the science fair should be cheered as much as the winner of the super bowl.

I thought that was a great statement. (And I didn't even come close to winning the science fair!)

My mom has a friend who was on the school board for a long time and she said the process for what to do with a poor-performing teacher is a challenging one. There are apparently a lot of "layers" to work through. I don't think I could be a teacher in this day and age. There are kids with complex family situations, learning disabilities, asthma and diabetic students, peer pressure, bullying, state and federal testing... My hat is off to teachers. But I've heard people say they could never be a nurse, but I like it.

[RICHARD]

When parents go bad?

http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/26/ohio-mom-kelley-williams-bolar-jailed-for-lying-about-kids-scho/?icid=maing%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk2%7C39432

Morons.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Well...I am shocked, shocked, shocked!

The guy in the purple tie (and since when is purple an appropriate color tie for a politician???) is NOT wearing a little jeweled American flag in his lapel...I have magnified the photo - he is wearing some other emblem but NOT a little American flag.

We all learned a couple of years ago that failing to wear a tiny bit of jewelry in the model of an American flag PROVES the politician is a commie/solicalist/anti-American/marxist.

So WHO is this guy?

(and yes, the veep is also missing his jewelry in the shape of an American flag - he probably left it on his pjs...)

[caseysmom]

I thought that was a great statement. (And I didn't even come close to winning the science fair!)

My mom has a friend who was on the school board for a long time and she said the process for what to do with a poor-performing teacher is a challenging one. There are apparently a lot of "layers" to work through. I don't think I could be a teacher in this day and age. There are kids with complex family situations, learning disabilities, asthma and diabetic students, peer pressure, bullying, state and federal testing... My hat is off to teachers. But I've heard people say they could never be a nurse, but I like it.

I think I would have loved to be a nurse aside from being on your feet all day!

[blue]

Well...I am shocked, shocked, shocked!

The guy in the purple tie (and since when is purple an appropriate color tie for a politician???)


President Obama is zapping out all kinds of non-verbal messages...with that purple tie.

:p












Link. (http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/01/what-infer-obamas-choice-neckwear)

[RICHARD]

YEah, what what that 'other symbol' Mr purple tie was wearing..........


Commie bees turd.

[lizbud]

See Rahm
See Rahm move to Chicago.
Rahm want to be Mayor.
See Rahm Run.
Run, Rahm, Run!

Oh no.
Rahm cannot run!
Rahm got jacked by the appellate court.
Rahm will appeal again.
Is Rahm done?

Oh no.
Rahm has donations
He will use that money to appeal.
Appeal, Rahm, appeal!

See Chi-town.
Chi-town politics are fun.
Rahm and Chi-town politics are fun.

See Puff.
See Rahm puff up his chest.
See Rahm try to run for Mayor.
Run, Rahm, run!

See Spot.
See Chi-town's political history.
See Chi-town's spotty political history.
Run, Rham, run!;)


Rahm is back on the ballot thanks to Illinois Supreme Court's ruling.:)
It ain't over till the fat lady sings. :p

http://www.suntimes.com/3521480-417/court-emanuel-ballot-decision-election.html

[Grace]

Good article, liz.

Thought this summed it up quite well -

“The novel standard adopted by the appellate court majority is without any foundation in Illinois law,’’ the Supreme Court’s ruling said.

[RICHARD]

When you look at all the eff ups in Chi Town politics, why shouldn't Rahm get on the ballot.;):rolleyes::o


One set of rules for the people, Crybabies pay lawyers.

And to think I was embarrassed about CA politics.:cool:

The fat lady is just as crooked as the politicians.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Rahm is back on the ballot thanks to Illinois Supreme Court's ruling.:)
It ain't over till the fat lady sings. :p

Rahm was my Congressperson. I met him...he came to my house...introduced himself...a guy who really understands politics.

But when you think how...what would describe it...anti-American? the decision would have been...if you go to serve your country - you give up your residency rights...well...let's see...if I go to Iraq or Afganistan to serve my country - and rent out my house - with every intention of returning...I give up my residency. Where then do I live?

You don't have to like politicians.... you don't have to like the military...but when someone goes to serve their country - they should not have to give up their residency - their existence - be punished -- because they choose to serve.

I wish I could count the number of times people say to me..."Chicago! The Windy City ...the windiest city in the country!"

Chicago is the 19th windiest city in the US. Cheyenne Wyoming is the windiest. But some people grab onto silly myths - because it is easy. And they say silly things. But let's forgive them. Silly myths can be fun.

So why is Chicago called the Windy City??...it was given that nickname by a New York newspaper in the late 1800's - because of the wordiness of its politicians - and the nickname stuck!

[blue]

When you look at all the eff ups in Chi Town politics, why shouldn't Rahm get on the ballot.;):rolleyes::o


One set of rules for the people, Crybabies pay lawyers.

And to think I was embarrassed about CA politics.:cool:

The fat lady is just as crooked as the politicians.

Actually RICHARD, Emanuels lawyers had a better argument. However Rahm's a wussy for not running a write in campaign. :p

[blue]

if you go to serve your country...but when someone goes to serve their country - they should not have to give up their residency - their existence - be punished -- because they choose to serve.

I agree with your premise, however, I do not agree that being the of Chief of Staff to the POTUS is serving ones country.

[RICHARD]

I agree with your premise, however, I do not agree that being the of Chief of Staff to the POTUS is serving ones country.

Isn't Chief Suck Up and K.A. an official post?

--

LOL, I wouldn't trust any politician with 10 feet of me or my belongings.

---------------


I stand corrected re the LAUSD cop.

He was arrested last night and released today.

He was charged with FILING A FALSE POLICE REPORT.


Seems like he shot himself and claimed it was a auto thief..



Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

[lizbud]

Good article, liz.

Thought this summed it up quite well -

Quote:
“The novel standard adopted by the appellate court majority is without any foundation in Illinois law,’’ the Supreme Court’s ruling said.


Grace, I thought the ruling, which was 7-0, made it quite clear that
the lower court was out of line in removing Rahm in the first place.:)

Some only insist on strict Constitutionality only when they benefit from
it. Sorry, that's not they way it works folks.:)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Some only insist on strict Constitutionality only when they benefit from
it. Sorry, that's not they way it works folks.:)

:D Liz! Those are the same people who whine about "activist" judges -- defined as a judge who makes a decision you don't like.:D

Unlike say... a judge who goes to speak at a political rally...or who lies on his financial disclosure by failingto list the income his wife receives from her work for fringe political groups...

[Grace]

And then there is Michele Bachmann, who would cut veteran benefits.

The Army Times (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/01/military-michele-bachmann-veterans-budget-cuts-012811w/)

[RICHARD]

Funny, When GWB was in office, people acted the same way when judges ruled the other way.

Ya get what you pay for.:D

----------------

MSNBC
Lean Forward-

So you don't drool over yourself while watching the programming.

[Puckstop31]

And then there is Michele Bachmann, who would cut veteran benefits.

The Army Times (http://www.armytimes.com/news/2011/01/military-michele-bachmann-veterans-budget-cuts-012811w/)

Speaking as a veteran, I have no problem with this. Technically speaking,I am entitled to some VA disability benefits. I have some hearing loss because of my service. I simply refused to apply for it.

As with all government programs, the VA is not without its share of fraud/waste/abuse. I know of people who get a FULL disability check from the VA, but are still quite capable of having a job and/or still work under the table.

Yeah, I know it sucks. But we have to start SOMEWHERE. We simply can't keep spending like there is no tomorrow.... You won't have to worry about the bills, but I and most certainly my children will.

[Grace]

Speaking as a veteran, I have no problem with this. Technically speaking,I am entitled to some VA disability benefits. I have some hearing loss because of my service. I simply refused to apply for it.

As with all government programs, the VA is not without its share of fraud/waste/abuse. I know of people who get a FULL disability check from the VA, but are still quite capable of having a job and/or still work under the table.

Yeah, I know it sucks. But we have to start SOMEWHERE. We simply can't keep spending like there is no tomorrow.... You won't have to worry about the bills, but I and most certainly my children will.

I would have no problem with it - IF we then "cut" the wars/conflicts and brought every single service person home; from every single country where they are currently stationed.

You have some hearing loss, and chose not to avail yourself of help. That's all well and good, but what about all those troops from Iraq and Afghanistan - you know, the ones with traumatic brain injuries, loss of limbs? What about them?

[Puckstop31]

I would have no problem with it - IF we then "cut" the wars/conflicts and brought every single service person home; from every single country where they are currently stationed.

I agree about the conflicts we are fighting now. I do.

But as for pulling ALL our people back form any foreign country.... I know we are losing our superpower status, but for now we still need to be able to project power. Especially when our potential opponents are increasing their ability to project.


You have some hearing loss, and chose not to avail yourself of help. That's all well and good, but what about all those troops from Iraq and Afghanistan - you know, the ones with traumatic brain injuries, loss of limbs? What about them?

These are the people who the VA should focus on. The ones who are truly disabled by their service. I just want to waste to end. My hearing loss does not prevent me from working or living a normal life. But I know that a LOT of vets do take that monthly check...

Grace, I am sure you understand how dependance can utterly ruin a person. Surely in your career you have seen it. I know it FEELS great to help those in need.... If ONLY that was the case. But no... LBJ gave us the "Great Society". HA! LBJ single handedly created GENERATIONS dependant upon their hard working neighbors. GENERATIONS of people raised in single parent homes. But, he also did get those people to vote "D", so its all good.


---

What do we cut then? How do we fix the almost impossible level of debt we have? I've always said that whatever the fix is, its going to hurt.

[blue]

Some only insist on strict Constitutionality only when they benefit from
it. Sorry, that's not they way it works folks.:)

I agree.

[Grace]

No wonder we are going broke. We give aid to Egypt to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars.



More than 80 percent of U.S. aid to Egypt, or $1.3 billion, is in the form of military assistance, according to data supplied by the U.S. State Department. With President Barack Obama in power, military aid has stayed unchanged and economic assistance has been cut to $250 million from $411 million in 2008 with the phasing out of democracy-linked programs.

The amount of money Egypt receives from the U.S. is exceeded only by Afghanistan, Pakistan and Israel, based on the State Department’s budget request for the current fiscal year.


source (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-01-28/clinton-urges-mubarak-to-seize-moment-immediately-for-egyptian-reforms.html)

[lizbud]

:D Liz! Those are the same people who whine about "activist" judges -- defined as a judge who makes a decision you don't like.:D

Unlike say... a judge who goes to speak at a political rally...or who lies on his financial disclosure by failingto list the income his wife receives from her work for fringe political groups...


Justice Thomas was only about 15 years late in reporting the required
information.:rolleyes: Wonder if he thought to report it to the IRS? :eek:

Scalia is a cheap date and a loud mouth who will talk endlessly to anyone
bored enough to listen.;)

[Edwina's Secretary]

Justice Thomas was only about 15 years late in reporting the required
information.:rolleyes: Wonder if he thought to report it to the IRS? :eek:



Exactly what I wondered! Once a liar...well...

But what does BHO have to do with these guys? Or GWB for that matter?

I am confused. Thomas was appointed by GHWB and Scalia by Reagan.

[lizbud]

But what does BHO have to do with these guys? Or GWB for that matter?

I am confused. Thomas was appointed by GHWB and Scalia by Reagan.


Nada, zip, zero to do with either of them.

As my old History teacher used to say," a fact ignored is still a fact":)

[wombat2u2004]

As with all government programs, the VA is not without its share of fraud/waste/abuse. I know of people who get a FULL disability check from the VA, but are still quite capable of having a job and/or still work under the table.

The way I see it ????
Veterans are doing it no different than lots of others in your country, they are just trying to live.
A start ???
Stop giving massive aid to other countries. What ??? Is the USA some world Santa Claus ???
They talk about the billions and billions given to other countries by the USA, when we all know that if the situation were reversed, you would receive sweet Fanny Adams from other countries.
And then they talk about cutting down the veterans pensions, veterans who have given their very blood to their country.
Don't make no sense to me.
I think your country needs a bloody good clean out, and I wouldn't be starting with veterans.....no....go higher up the ladder, that's where you'll find the abuse, waste and fraud.

[lizbud]

Now we have Palins's thoughts on Obama's reaction, or lack of it, to the
unrest in Egypt. Read her comments, they're better than the funny pages.:)

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sarah-palin-criticizes-president-barack-obama-egypt-call/story?id=12851413

[Bonny]

Now we have Palins's thoughts on Obama's reaction, or lack of it, to the
unrest in Egypt. Read her comments, they're better than the funny pages.:)

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/sarah-palin-criticizes-president-barack-obama-egypt-call/story?id=12851413

Her second speech is all over the place? I quit listening to it.

Sarah has bought up a good point. Who will be ruling Egypt? Any Ideas?

[Edwina's Secretary]

What are the chances Ms. Palin can name "those other countries" in the Middle East that she is worried about? What are the chances she can point to Egypt on a map - without coaching?

Would slim to none cover it?

[wombat2u2004]

Sarah has bought up a good point. Who will be ruling Egypt? Any Ideas?

Cleopatra ????

[Edwina's Secretary]

Sarah has bought up a good point. Who will be ruling Egypt? Any Ideas?

What Ms. Palin does not seem to understand is that it is not the role of the United States government to install rulers in foreign sovereign nations.

The Egyptian people will decide who will lead their country. As I understand it they want someone to lead - not to rule.

[blue]

Now that Palin has her own thread can we keep this hate in there?

[Bonny]

What Ms. Palin does not seem to understand is that it is not the role of the United States government to install rulers in foreign sovereign nations.

The Egyptian people will decide who will lead their country. As I understand it they want someone to lead - not to rule.

Is that why we are fighting in Iraq,& Afghanistan? Our country has been either fighting or shelling out money & weapons for decades to our favorite rulers/dictators. It would be nice if we had people who want to lead & not rule in our own country.

[blue]

Is that why we are fighting in Iraq,& Afghanistan? Our country has been either fighting or shelling out money & weapons for decades to our favorite rulers/dictators. It would be nice if we had people who want to lead & not rule in our own country.

Its a two sided sword. It keeps us fighting amongst ourselves and keeps the hate alive for Sarah Palin. Its a win win for the Libs.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Is that why we are fighting in Iraq,& Afghanistan? Our country has been either fighting or shelling out money & weapons for decades to our favorite rulers/dictators. It would be nice if we had people who want to lead & not rule in our own country.

I could not begin to answer why we are fighting in Iraq especially. Some Freudian complex I believe.

I hope this time we will recognize the difference between being lead and being ruled and make the right choice.

[blue]

I could not begin to answer why we are fighting in Iraq especially. Some Freudian complex I believe.

I hope this time we will recognize the difference between being lead and being ruled and make the right choice.

Being led, following by choice.

Being ruled, being forced to follow.

Any questions?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Any questions?

Indeed...aren't the 15 minutes up?

[blue]

Indeed...aren't the 15 minutes up?

So the truce is up?

How does Karen feel about this?

[Karen]

So the truce is up?

How does Karen feel about this?

How do I feel about what? Just remain civil toward each other, no name-calling and remember we are all here because we love pets. Everything else we can disagree about, as long as we remain civil and respectful.

[blue]

How do I feel about what? Just remain civil toward each other, no name-calling and remember we are all here because we love pets. Everything else we can disagree about, as long as we remain civil and respectful.

Having Sarah wonder how I feel about the Palin "girls" is over the line.

So if Sarah feels the truce is off you might as well ban us both right now.

[Bonny]

You have the far left & you have the far right. But somewhere in the middle is common sense. ;):)

[blue]

You have the far left & you have the far right. But somewhere in the middle is common sense. ;):)

Problem is there arent many center lefties any more. They call themselves center but they are far to the left of center. The upshoot is they are closer to sane then the far lefties. The rightie centrist are closer to center then the leftie centrists but still isnt center.

[wombat2u2004]

Problem is there arent many center lefties any more. They call themselves center but they are far to the left of center. The upshoot is they are closer to sane then the far lefties. The rightie centrist are closer to center then the leftie centrists but still isnt center.

So if someone stands on their head back to front, are they left or right or upside down backwards ????

[blue]

So if someone stands on their head back to front, are they left or right or upside down backwards ????

Are they looking into a mirror thats facing a mirror?

[wombat2u2004]

Are they looking into a mirror thats facing a mirror?

Only the right off center people.
The center off left people would be right of the mirror, and can't see left.

[lizbud]

If somebody goes far enough to the right, don't they eventually become left?

[Grace]

If somebody goes far enough to the right, don't they eventually become left?

Left behind, perhaps :)

[Grace]

Time for some happy political news -

From CNN -


U.S. Representative Gabrielle Giffords, recovering from a gunshot wound to the head sustained January 8, is regaining part of her ability to speak, her spokesman said Wednesday.

C.J. Karamargin would not divulge what Giffords has said, other than saying she asked for toast.

"It's very good news," he told CNN.

And from the same source -


Mark Kelly told reporters on Friday that he expects Giffords to witness Endeavour's launch, scheduled for April 19. With NASA planning to retire the shuttle fleet, this is expected to be Endeavour's last mission.

"I have every intention for her to be at the launch," Kelly said.

[wombat2u2004]

If somebody goes far enough to the right, don't they eventually become left?

If blue wandered too far right, he'd fall into a crevasse, and then he'd be left. :D

[phesina]

So if someone stands on their head back to front, are they left or right or upside down backwards ????

And what if their whole COUNTRY is upside down? :eek::D

[wombat2u2004]

And what if their whole COUNTRY is upside down? :eek::D

We ARE upside down here.
That's why we prefer our women to wear skirts.
Didn't you know that already ???? :p

[blue]

If blue wandered too far right, he'd fall into a crevasse, and then he'd be left. :D

I have glacier training, it was part of Mountaineering 201. Aussieland doesnt have glaciers though, so Im actually impressed you know what a crevasse is, good show.

[wombat2u2004]

I have glacier training, it was part of Mountaineering 201. Aussieland doesnt have glaciers though, so Im actually impressed you know what a crevasse is, good show.

We did have glaciers, about half a million years ago.
But I can't remember back that far. :p

[RICHARD]

Watching the Egypt coverage and cannot believe that the intel services here in the U.S. got it wrong.

Imagine if we had to deal with a country with Weapons of Mass Destruction.

-----------

I do love fireworks and flares.

[Grace]

Watching the Egypt coverage and cannot believe that the intel services here in the U.S. got it wrong.

Imagine if we had to deal with a country with Weapons of Mass Destruction.


Yes, just imagine :rolleyes:

[RICHARD]

Yes, just imagine :rolleyes:

Can I have a few minutes to get my thoughts in order?:o

MSNBC is reporting that Mubarak is in talks to take over KO's old spot on the network.

[RICHARD]

If somebody goes far enough to the right, don't they eventually become left?

Only on the globe.

If you do a regular "number-line" scenario, highly unlikely.

:confused:

---------------

http://i994.photobucket.com/albums/af68/xxlt/obama.jpg

[RICHARD]

Do you think that us Mur-I-cuhns would ever undertake a 'job' like this? The symbolicism is probably way too heavy for us.



http://www.aolnews.com/2011/02/12/a-day-of-rejoicing-and-cleaning-in-cairos-tahrir-square/?icid=maing%7Cmain5%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%7C43655



Naw, I can dream tho.....:mad::(

[phesina]

Oh, my goodness.. God love 'em.

Good on you, EGYPTIANS!!!!! You ROCK!

[Grace]

From the AP-


PHOENIX – Rep. Gabrielle Giffords can walk while holding onto a cart, mouth the lyrics to easy songs and have simple conversations, according to family, staff and her doctors.

Mark Kelly said in an interview broadcast Monday on NBC that he can ask his wife questions and she can respond.

"The communication is coming back very quickly," he said.

Kelly said she is trying so hard that her speech therapist, who only a few days ago was trying to get her to talk more, is now asking Giffords to slow down and make sure she hears the question before giving an answer.

As an example, Kelly spoke of a time when the therapist had three cards on a table, one with a picture of George W. Bush, one with a picture of President Barack Obama and another with an image of George Washington.

"Before she was asked a question, she'd picked up the card and held it up and said 'George Bush,'" Kelly told NBC's Brian Williams. "She's a hard worker and she's trying. She's speaking a lot and at some level they are asking her to slow down a little bit."

The New York Times, citing doctors and her staff, reported on its website late Sunday that Giffords' efforts to relearn how to speak have included mouthing song lyrics, such as "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star" and "Happy Birthday to You," as friends and family sang along.

Giffords also briefly spoke with her brother-in-law Scott Kelly by telephone Sunday afternoon as he orbited aboard the International Space Station.

"She said, hi, I'm good," her chief of staff, Pia Carusone, told the paper. He is the brother of Giffords' husband, who is also an astronaut.

She has also been receiving bedside briefings from aides on the recent uprising in Egypt and on last week's decision by Republican Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona not to seek re-election,

"We tell her everything that's going on," Carusone said. "Don't get the idea she's speaking in paragraphs, but she definitely understands what we're saying and she's verbalizing."

Giffords was shot in the head Jan. 8 while meeting with constituents outside a Tucson grocery store. Six people, including a 9-year-old girl and a federal judge, were killed in the attack, and 13 others, including Giffords, were wounded.

The congresswoman began intensive rehabilitation at TIRR Memorial Hermann in Houston late last month. The Times reported that an e-mail sent to friends about a week ago by Giffords' mother said that Giffords has been doing squats and repetitive motions to build her muscles and walking through the hospital's halls while holding onto a cart.

The 40-year-old Giffords has beaten one of her nurses at tic-tac-toe and has changed from "kind of a limp noodle" to someone who is "alert, sits up straight with good posture," the e-mail from Gloria Giffords said.

Doctors said in late January that they planned to insert a speaking valve into her tracheostomy — a tube inserted into Giffords' throat to assist her breathing immediately after the shooting. Her doctors have not said whether that procedure took place or whether the tube was removed since she no longer needs it.

Rehabilitation specialists say brain injury patients who regain speech typically begin to do so about four to six weeks after the incident. Several news organizations reported last week that Giffords asked for toast with her breakfast one recent morning.

[lizbud]

Quite a difference between Egypt and Iran's response to citizen protests.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/15/iran.protests/index.html?hpt=T2#

[blue]

NEW YORK - CBS News correspondent Lara Logan was recovering in a U.S. hospital Tuesday from a sexual attack and beating she sustained while reporting on the tumultuous events in Cairo.

Logan was in the city's Tahrir Square on Friday after Egyptian president Hosni Mubarak stepped down when she, her team and their security "were surrounded by a dangerous element amidst the celebration," CBS said in a statement Tuesday.

The network described a mob of more than 200 people "whipped into a frenzy."

Separated from her crew in the crush of the violent pack, she suffered what CBS called "a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating." She was saved by a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers, the network said. The Associated Press does not name victims of a sexual assault unless the victim agrees to it.

She reconnected with the CBS team and returned to the U.S. on Saturday.

The scene last Friday in Tahrir Square - ground zero of 18 days of protests that brought down Mubarak - was primarily one of celebration - people wept, jumped for joy, cheered and hugged one another. Some soldiers stationed at the square ran into the crowd, and the protesters lifted them onto their shoulders. Other troops stayed at their posts, watching in awe. There were fireworks, the sound of car horns and even some shots fired in the air.

The attack on Logan, CBS News' chief foreign affairs correspondent, is one of at least 140 others suffered by reporters covering the unrest in Egypt since Jan. 30, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists. An Egyptian reporter died from gunshot wounds he received during the protests.

A week before Friday's attack, Logan was detained by the Egyptian military for a day, along with two CBS cameramen. They returned to the U.S. after their release, and Logan went back to Cairo shortly before Mubarak left.

Logan joined CBS News in 2002. She regularly reports for the "CBS Evening News" as well as "60 Minutes," where she has been a correspondent since 2006. She has reported widely from Iraq and Afghanistan, and other global trouble spots.

CBS said it had no further comment on Logan's assault.



Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...#ixzz1E4W3mTY1

Are we still getting the full unbiased story of what is going on in Egypt?

[lizbud]

Are we still getting the full unbiased story of what is going on in Egypt?



What do you think?

[momoffuzzyfaces]

I have two questions about the stuff going on in Wisconsin. Apparently, the Democrats have gone into hiding to avoid voting on a bill they don't like. SO:
1. Why do they still get paid for not doing their jobs?

2. Who is paying the bill for the hotel across the state line where they are 'hiding out'?

Just wondering. :love:

[Edwina's Secretary]

1. Why do they still get paid for not doing their jobs?



Perhaps, to the people who elected them and to the 70,000 people braving the Wisconsin winter to protest the bill - they ARE doing their job.

The unions have agreed to the financial concessions the governor claims to need. But he will not compromise. He will only accept destroying the unions.

[RICHARD]

I have two questions about the stuff going on in Wisconsin. Apparently, the Democrats have gone into hiding to avoid voting on a bill they don't like. SO:
1. Why do they still get paid for not doing their jobs?

2. Who is paying the bill for the hotel across the state line where they are 'hiding out'?

Just wondering. :love:

I guess they have not found out that Hosni Mubarak has 'retired'.

---------------------------

What do you call M Ghadafi's children?

Dictator Tots.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

Perhaps, to the people who elected them and to the 70,000 people braving the Wisconsin winter to protest the bill - they ARE doing their job.

The unions have agreed to the financial concessions the governor claims to need. But he will not compromise. He will only accept destroying the unions.

Ok, maybe the are making 70,000 people (and the unions) happy but if they don't get their tail feathers back to Washington and pass a bill to keep the government running by March 4th, more than that number will be without their pay checks next month. All gov employees, social secuity and disability people and probably others I can't think off will get shafted because they are too chicken to do their job. They don't have to vote the way the govenor wants them too after all. :love:

[Edwina's Secretary]

Ok, maybe the are making 70,000 people (and the unions) happy but if they don't get their tail feathers back to Washington and pass a bill to keep the government running by March 4th, more than that number will be without their pay checks next month. All gov employees, social secuity and disability people and probably others I can't think off will get shafted because they are too chicken to do their job. They don't have to vote the way the govenor wants them too after all. :love:

MOFF- these are Wisconsin State Senators. They are not members of the national senate. They do not go to Washington - they legislate in Madison WI - the state capital. There are two Wisconsin Senators who go to Washington - these 14 are members of the state senate and deal with strictly Wisconsin state. Whether they return to Madison or not will have no impact on what happens in Washington.

[RICHARD]

Ok, maybe the are making 70,000 people (and the unions) happy but if they don't get their tail feathers back to Washington and pass a bill to keep the government running by March 4th, more than that number will be without their pay checks next month. All gov employees, social secuity and disability people and probably others I can't think off will get shafted because they are too chicken to do their job. They don't have to vote the way the govenor wants them too after all. :love:

They state senators are a bunch of local yokels with no allegiance to the people that voted them in, instead of fighting, they tuck tail and go hang out next door and will come back when they feel like it.

Also, the union have no effing responsibility to the members, they only want to keep the power to make money and increase union dues so they can keep their 'union' jobs.

When I was part of the SEIU those emm effers paid Jesse Jackson some outrageous amount of money, his hotel and traveling expenses to give a talk to the membership.

As far as I am concerned? That moron didn't represent me and I was irritated they (Union) spent the money to sponsor that shyster.

-----------------------------

That is what they get for winning the Super Bowl.

[momoffuzzyfaces]

MOFF- these are Wisconsin State Senators. They are not members of the national senate. They do not go to Washington - they legislate in Madison WI - the state capital. There are two Wisconsin Senators who go to Washington - these 14 are members of the state senate and deal with strictly Wisconsin state. Whether they return to Madison or not will have no impact on what happens in Washington.

Well, for heavens sake!!! I never knew that!!! The news keeps saying they need to get back to Washington so I just thought they were the senators we all vote for for our states to go to Washington. Specially since they keep saying the President should step in. I did think it down right odd that all the Democrat Senators would hide because of what was going on in Wisconsin. OOPSIE!!! :love:

[cassiesmom]

Here's an editorial that helped me "get it" more with respect to the protests up in Madison, Wisconsin.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/ct-oped-0222-byrne-20110222,0,7841218.column

Sorry, public employees, but the private sector is being asked to make bigger contributions to our benefit packages and pensions and we are also seeing our pension plans drop. It's been different for you. I get that you're being asked to do more with less... welcome to my world!

[momoffuzzyfaces]

One thing I do know is if the President doesn't allow US companies to drill for oil in are own waters, we will be in deep dodo very very soon. Most of the countries we get our oil from are in turmoil. There is already talk of 5 to 7 dollars for a gallon of gas this summer. :love:

[Edwina's Secretary]

Here's an editorial that helped me "get it" more with respect to the protests up in Madison, Wisconsin.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/ct-oped-0222-byrne-20110222,0,7841218.column

Sorry, public employees, but the private sector is being asked to make bigger contributions to our benefit packages and pensions and we are also seeing our pension plans drop. It's been different for you. I get that you're being asked to do more with less... welcome to my world!

Cassiesmom - Again, I am not a fan of unions - I have worked with them, negotiated with them and fought them. But the article you cited - is about as one sided as it gets. The public sector employees surely need their contracts reined in - but I do not think it is right to destroy them. If they agree to the economic consessions - why is it necessary to destroy the union - to take away their bargaining rights?

The saying is that employers that get a union deserve a union. Unions are designed to balance the playing field between employers and workers.

And once the public sector unions are gone - they will go after the private sector unions. It is all about power.

An interesting side note- what governor of California signed the legislature that brought public sector unions to California? Ronald Reagan.

So - cut back the benefits of public sector unions at the bargaining table.

p.s. Here's an article from last June that may give balance to the issue. Destroying public unions is not being drvien by the so-called "budget crisis" in Wisconsin - it is a strategy of the GOP.

union busting (http://voiceofoc.org/blogs/article_694fcde2-7289-11df-aa3c-001cc4c03286.html)

[cassiesmom]

Cassiesmom - Again, I am not a fan of unions - I have worked with them, negotiated with them and fought them. But the article you cited - is about as one sided as it gets.

p.s. Here's an article from last June that may give balance to the issue. Destroying public unions is not being drvien by the so-called "budget crisis" in Wisconsin - it is a strategy of the GOP.

union busting (http://voiceofoc.org/blogs/article_694fcde2-7289-11df-aa3c-001cc4c03286.html)

But it's from the Chicago Tribune, though, and they are traditionally pretty conservative.

[Edwina's Secretary]

But it's from the Chicago Tribune, though, and they are traditionally pretty conservative.

Indeed the Chicago Tibune is conservative (but still my favorite paper!:D)

But this is an editorial. Not about facts - about his opinion. And he has been with the Tribune for ages and is very, very right wing.

Just look for the facts - and a little balance - on the situation. It will be around for at least the next two years...;);)

[cassiesmom]

Labor union question... I know that labor unions were established when America was a more "production" nation, meaning we were assembling things like cars, TVs, appliances and toys that are now made in other countries. Can it be said that there is still a place for labor unions in America? (and I get that they represent teachers, musicians, airline pilots, police and fire fighters and even professional athletes - people who have nothing to do with production)

When I worked at Hartford there was a statement in the employee handbook explaining why they did not have unions- basically they preferred to work directly with employees.

Also-- even if the governor of Wisconsin does get what he's working for, is he going to get himself voted out of office over this? I'm thinking he might. Is winning the battle worth losing the war, so to speak?

I've heard "working people didn't cause the crisis" as a rationale to not rescind collective bargaining, but at the same time -- I live in Illinois, where the state income tax just went up by two thirds, so as a working person, I'd have to say I'm being compelled to do something about the budget crisis here.

Thanks,
elyse

[Puckstop31]

So - cut back the benefits of public sector unions at the bargaining table.

I agree 100%. I am really disappointed with how the WI GOP is handling this.

There is a HUGE difference about how you conduct business in a Republic. How things are going down in WI is NOT how a Republic should work. A pure Democracy? Yes. A Republic, no.


----

If I were the WI Gov.... I'd ask the union to turn their pension plan into a IRA or 401k. Most of us are responsible for our retirement, why should they get a guaranteed pension at taxpayer expense, no matter what comes?

[wombat2u2004]

Just borrow another couple of trillion folks, and all of your problems will be solved :cool:

http://dailybail.com/home/there-are-no-words-to-describe-the-following-part-ii.html

Now this lady REALLY knows what she is talking about. :rolleyes:

[Puckstop31]

Labor union question... I know that labor unions were established when America was a more "production" nation, meaning we were assembling things like cars, TVs, appliances and toys that are now made in other countries. Can it be said that there is still a place for labor unions in America? (and I get that they represent teachers, musicians, airline pilots, police and fire fighters and even professional athletes - people who have nothing to do with production)

When I worked at Hartford there was a statement in the employee handbook explaining why they did not have unions- basically they preferred to work directly with employees.

Also-- even if the governor of Wisconsin does get what he's working for, is he going to get himself voted out of office over this? I'm thinking he might. Is winning the battle worth losing the war, so to speak?

I've heard "working people didn't cause the crisis" as a rationale to not rescind collective bargaining, but at the same time -- I live in Illinois, where the state income tax just went up by two thirds, so as a working person, I'd have to say I'm being compelled to do something about the budget crisis here.

Thanks,
elyse

Most governments in the world have rights based on the rights of men.

Here, it is the rights of man.

Individual vs. the collective. In a union, you all win or lose together. That is hte risk you take. On your own, you are free to pursue whatever you want. Go for it, per say. But on your own, you are also free to fail. Unions (generally speaking) protect those who fail. That is not how America is supposed to work.

Freedom is not safety. Its not equality. Its not even fair. Its FREEDOM. We have laws to try and protect your right to pursue your happiness but there is no guarantee of results....


"The greatest inequality of all is to try to make unequal things equal."
Aristotle


ETA:

Think about it this way.

What is the difference between "Yes WE can!" and "Yes I can!"

Adam Smith got it right a long time ago.

[Bonny]

Where's The Money Coming From For All This?:eek: Where Did The Money Go To?:eek: Is Someone Going Broke Or Are They Already Broke? :eek:

[Edwina's Secretary]

United We Stand Divided We Fall a phrase used by George Washington, Patrick Henry, Ben Franklin and many other "founding fathers".

It was how they believed America must behave in order to be successful.

It is also the premise behind unions.

[Grace]

United We Stand Divided We Fall a phrase used by George Washington, Patrick Henry, Ben Franklin and many other "founding fathers".

It was how they believed America must behave in order to be successful.

It is also the premise behind unions.

Similar thoughts go back further than the Founding Fathers. From Matthew 12:25 -

And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

Lincoln used these works in an address he gave on June 16, 1858, in Springfield, Illinois, upon accepting the Illinois Republican Party's nomination as that state's United States senator.

[cassiesmom]

What is the National Review? Is it a conservative publication? This author writes for them. It was printed in the Chicago Tribune, which is also conservative.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/ct-oped-0223-goldberg-20110222,0,7574542.column

[Puckstop31]

United We Stand Divided We Fall a phrase used by George Washington, Patrick Henry, Ben Franklin and many other "founding fathers".

It was how they believed America must behave in order to be successful.

It is also the premise behind unions.

Who is it that public employee unions collectively bargain against?

The taxpayer.

If that is the premise of public employee unions.... No thanks.

Any wonder why so many people are so against PUBLIC employee unions?

---

There are many people who believe in the unlimited power of the individual, when the individual is given the most Freedom possible to pursure their happiness. That does NOT mean we do not need each other.

United we stand. United by what? Love of country? God?

[Puckstop31]

Similar thoughts go back further than the Founding Fathers. From Matthew 12:25 -

And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

Lincoln used these works in an address he gave on June 16, 1858, in Springfield, Illinois, upon accepting the Illinois Republican Party's nomination as that state's United States senator.

What should Americans do then, to become more united?

[Edwina's Secretary]

Unions do not negotiate against anyone. I cannot imagine any negotiation that involves against. That defies the definition of "negotiations."

Public sector unions negotiate with the public sector administration - the school board, the mayor - the department of farming - whatever is the administrative body for which they work.

To suggest public sector unions negotiate against or even with the taxpayers is analogous to saying that private sector unions negotiate against - or with the consumer of the goods or services that union is involved with providing.

I have been involved in a few union campaigns. It has never been about money - initially. It is about the supervisors, the fairness with which the employees feel they are being treated.

I don't advocate unions. I have worked "on the other side" my whole career. I have made many speeches, home mailers, etc. about why it is better without a union. And I believe that in most cases. I have managed campaigns to defeat unions in elections and have won more than I lost.

I believe the Employee Free Choice Act is wrong and have written my congresspersons about it.

But why should public sector employees have less rights than private sector?

That is the heart of the issue.

[RICHARD]

I "unioned" for 30 years and it was a CF.

So, by not having any experience in the 'private sector' I humbly will keep my opinions to myself.;)

------------------
http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/2/23/345511bb-cc48-481a-a094-0dfc9084069e.jpg

Check it out.

MG wants to fight to the last drop of blood.

Hey, whatever happened to the hack that wanted the "Mother of all Battles?"

And if Hugo Chavez gets overthrown, will Sean Penn and Oliver Stone run down to rescue him?

[Edwina's Secretary]

I "unioned" for 30 years and it was a CF.

So, by not having any experience in the 'private sector' I humbly will keep my opinions to myself.;)



Two questions....what does "CF" mean? And secondly - I thought you worked for KP? That would be the 'private sector.'

So as not to confuse people - the public sector - means working for a federal, state or local government.

Everything else is the private sector.

[RICHARD]

semantics.

[Edwina's Secretary]

semantics. Okay....up or down - just semantics.:rolleyes::rolleyes: Right left - just semantics...Use them interchangably...right?

So what does "CF" mean?

[cassiesmom]

But why should public sector employees have less rights than private sector?



I don't see it as public sector ee's having less rights; just different rights. That's because my tax dollars pay their salary. They are providing services that keep our society running in an organized fashion - everything from collecting trash to the practice of law in the state's attorney's office. When they agree to work in the public sector, there are certain things they give up in exchange for what they gain.

For example, I did agency work at a local hospital operated by the county health services bureau. They observed the federal holidays like Columbus Day, Veterans' Day and Dr. King's birthday - three additional days off with pay per employee per year. Their health benefit plan (for both employees and retirees) was waaaay more robust than private settings. They had access to purchasing plans for big-ticket items at deep discounts, theater and amusement park tickets, tax-free uniform purchasing (again at deep discounts), and I could go on from there. They were getting cheap prescription drugs long before Wal-Mart came up with their $4 generics. They had preferential hiring that the private sector doesn't get - they hardly ever hired from outside and they paid their existing employees gobs of overtime instead of hiring additional staff.

They could retire far earlier than the private sector. The manager to whom I reported was preparing to retire at 55. She would collect a full pension and go on to work for another 10-12 years in a completely different setting.

So ... in my mind ... public sector employee, you're working for me as a taxpayer. You chose that setting when you accepted the position. You might not realize just how good you have it as opposed to the rest of us. Take it or leave it.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Cassiesmom - I don't disagree. But I can tell you what my brother, who works for the federal government would say - Yes, government employees have many benefits - but the pay is lower. That is the trade off. He could make much more money working in the private sector - but he likes what he does and he likes that it benefits people.

You are paying the wages of every employee. When you buy an automobile you are paying the wages of the workers who make the cars. But a can of beans - you are paying the wages of the people who picked the beans and the people who canned them. When you make a phone call you are paying the wages of people who work for the phone company.

But I said it before and I'll say it again. If the public sector benefits are too high - negotiate with them - reduce them.

But why take away the right other employees have - the right to stand united in their relationship with their employer? They did not give that up - now some folks are trying to take away a right they had when they took the job. For political reasons.

By the way...do you know what "CF" means?

[caseysmom]

Cialis Factory????

[wombat2u2004]

where's the money coming from for all this?:eek: Where did the money go to?:eek: Is someone going broke or are they already broke? :eek:

誰是你真正想擁有的國家呢？？？？它必須是中國...對嗎？？？
我認為貴國政府已錯失良機。

[Bonny]

誰是你真正想擁有的國家呢？？？？它必須是中國...對嗎？？？
我認為貴國政府已錯失良機。

Darn you hit the nail right on the head Wombat. Our States & Federal government don't have a pot to pee in anymore.

[RICHARD]

Consolidated Freightways.

http://www.answers.com/topic/consolidated-freightways

[cassiesmom]

cystic fibrosis?
cf. = compare (boy, I haven't typed that very often since I got out of school!)
chocolate frosting? :)


ES, you asked why take away a right other employees have? Is it because the governor thinks collective bargaining rights are not necessary for public sector employees, but the employees themselves do? I can't give you a better answer for that one. Could the federal government use the money they got back from the auto bail-out to help state governments? Would that work?

[Edwina's Secretary]

cystic fibrosis?
cf. = compare (boy, I haven't typed that very often since I got out of school!)
chocolate frosting? :)


ES, you asked why take away a right other employees have? Is it because the governor thinks collective bargaining rights are not necessary for public sector employees, but the employees themselves do? I can't give you a better answer for that one. Could the federal government use the money they got back from the auto bail-out to help state governments? Would that work?

So if that buffoon of a governor thinks that equal pay for men and women is not necessary but the employees do think it is necessary...does that make the governor right?

The thing to remember - this is NOT about economics. The governor has made - since he took office - more tax breaks to corporations than the budget shortfall. In other words - he created it. This is about power. The unions have offered to go along with the economic consessions he seeks - if he will back off destroying the union. He will not.

POWER...you know the Fat Cats - taking it out of the working class.

or chocolate frosting...

or can't figure or ....

clueless faker....

I am just not sure...

[blue]

Way to go RICHARD you stumped the lady who claims to never be wrong. Feel to good about it, Puck and I have done it too.

Good job though none the less.

[wombat2u2004]

Way to go RICHARD you stumped the lady who claims to never be wrong. Feel to good about it, Puck and I have done it too.

Good job though none the less.

That's it boys ;) Never back down from a Know-It-All ;)

[wombat2u2004]

Darn you hit the nail right on the head Wombat. Our States & Federal government don't have a pot to pee in anymore.

Nope. That's because they wear them on their heads. ;)

[cassiesmom]

May I change the subject from politics to religion just for a moment? I am so excited, I might have an opportunity to sing in church choir during Lent. My church has Sunday evening services and during Lent they are especially nice. The choir is doing the Fauré Requiem for one of them. I learned part of it in high school, haven't sung it since; but here is an opportunity to do it again :) There is also a handbell choir being put together for Palm Sunday... we haven't had a bell choir at my church for 10 years, so that should be nice. Then Easter is sort of a bustle, children, families, music, lilies, more music, more lilies. I like Easter at our church.

I now return the subject back to politics.

[blue]

May I change the subject from politics to religion just for a moment? I am so excited, I might have an opportunity to sing in church choir during Lent. My church has Sunday evening services and during Lent they are especially nice. The choir is doing the Fauré Requiem for one of them. I learned part of it in high school, haven't sung it since; but here is an opportunity to do it again :) There is also a handbell choir being put together for Palm Sunday... we haven't had a bell choir at my church for 10 years, so that should be nice. Then Easter is sort of a bustle, children, families, music, lilies, more music, more lilies. I like Easter at our church.

I now return the subject back to politics.

Awesome!!!

[Puckstop31]

I stand by my assertion that PUBLIC employee unions negotiate against the taxpayer. Simply because when the union wins a concession, the taxpayer has to pay for it.

Then there is the fact that unions are HUGE contributors to political campaigns. The statistics say that a vast majority of those union donations go to guys with a "D" after their name. I am SURE that those "negotiations" are on the up and up. As if a governor/legislature/what have you is going to fight hard against what a union wants when the unions money helped to get them elected. What we are seeing now, all around the country, is the long term result of the utter joke that public employee union "negotiations" result in.


Something has to give. I feel for the honest union member. But what are they to do?

Public employee unions need to have different rules. There has to be some kind of a limit to what they can get out of a 'negotiation'. Otherwise, next time the political climate is full of people they helped get elected.....

[sasvermont]

:DCF = cluster f**k

I don't usually add much to this topic, but I do know what CF means. It was my favorite term while working with lawyers for 30 some years.

[wombat2u2004]

:DCF = cluster f**k

I don't usually add much to this topic, but I do know what CF means. It was my favorite term while working with lawyers for 30 some years.

HAH !!!! That's still my favourite term when dealing with government. But yeah, I have to agree that lawyers are very CFish....hee hee. :D:D

[Puckstop31]

HAH !!!! That's still my favourite term when dealing with government. But yeah, I have to agree that lawyers are very CFish....hee hee. :D:D

Think back to your days in the service Wom....


What generally happens when a new Lieutenant tells a Sergeant HOW to do something?

:D

Oh the stories I could share.... But this is a family show. LOL

[RICHARD]

:DCF = cluster f**k

I don't usually add much to this topic, but I do know what CF means. It was my favorite term while working with lawyers for 30 some years.

LOL,

CF is beyond a CJ.:eek::o;)

[wombat2u2004]

What generally happens when a new Lieutenant tells a Sergeant HOW to do something?

Yeah, that's a bit gruesome to discuss here. But it's sort of along the lines of the Sgt ripping off the Lt's arm and beating him to death with it. :D

[Lady's Human]

THis is very much against my better judgement, however, I feel forced by the tone of some of the comments to say something.........

Public sector unions.......yep, we're all about greed. I admit it.

The Unions in the postal service have nothing to do with the thousands of workers who used to sit in hold rooms waiting to sort mail.......off the clock. They were required to be there, not getting paid, waiting to be called on to work, at which point they'd clock in and go to work.

Nah, the 8 in 10 rule we have in our contract is just about greed.

They have nothing to do with protecting workers' bids. Management would never do something like hire someone based on an offered job then change the hours making it impossible for the new hire to follow their original plans......

Management would never refuse to post a needed job because they didn't like the person who was going to get it.....

No school board would ever fire a teacher just for personal pique....

No town would ever fire a highway worker because the worker ran for a political position and lost.....

Nope, government agencies are pure as the wind driven snow, and would never violate labor laws or ethical standards of conduct, and would never, EVER use their relatively unlimited funds to fight a worker in court over an improper firing or unsafe working conditions.

Patronage doesn't exist in government, and there's no need for standards of conduct to be contractually enforced. No government agency would EVER hire someone because of politics.....

Unions exist in the public sector for the same reason they exist in the private sector...........to avoid the abuse of power by management. Toss political power into the mix, and it can, and has, gotten ugly in short order. The APWU is in contract negotiations right now, and the wage scale is the least of my concerns.

What's going on in Wisconsin has nothing to do with excessive spending, the Union(s) have offered concessions in those areas. This is about breaking the collective bargaining rights for public employees nationwide.



This statement has been brought to you by a corrupt, greedy local union official, a fat cat living off of the money from dues paying workers. The $248.56 I get every quarter from the Union is the only reason I deal with the phone calls at home, people waiting for me at the time clock, negotiating with management only to see the deals broken minutes later, high blood pressure and headaches.

[cassiesmom]

Unions exist in the public sector for the same reason they exist in the private sector...........to avoid the abuse of power by management. Toss political power into the mix, and it can, and has, gotten ugly in short order. The APWU is in contract negotiations right now, and the wage scale is the least of my concerns.

What's going on in Wisconsin has nothing to do with excessive spending, the Union(s) have offered concessions in those areas. This is about breaking the collective bargaining rights for public employees nationwide.


But Lady's Human-- can it be said that a labor union is also a power-holding entity? Isn't that the goal of negotiations, so that neither side ends up with nothing because the other side had all the power? We've moved away from child labor and horrendously unsafe working conditions that came about because of imbalances of power.

[Puckstop31]

THis is very much against my better judgement, however, I feel forced by the tone of some of the comments to say something.........

Public sector unions.......yep, we're all about greed. I admit it.

The Unions in the postal service have nothing to do with the thousands of workers who used to sit in hold rooms waiting to sort mail.......off the clock. They were required to be there, not getting paid, waiting to be called on to work, at which point they'd clock in and go to work.

Nah, the 8 in 10 rule we have in our contract is just about greed.

They have nothing to do with protecting workers' bids. Management would never do something like hire someone based on an offered job then change the hours making it impossible for the new hire to follow their original plans......

Management would never refuse to post a needed job because they didn't like the person who was going to get it.....

No school board would ever fire a teacher just for personal pique....

No town would ever fire a highway worker because the worker ran for a political position and lost.....

Nope, government agencies are pure as the wind driven snow, and would never violate labor laws or ethical standards of conduct, and would never, EVER use their relatively unlimited funds to fight a worker in court over an improper firing or unsafe working conditions.

Patronage doesn't exist in government, and there's no need for standards of conduct to be contractually enforced. No government agency would EVER hire someone because of politics.....

Unions exist in the public sector for the same reason they exist in the private sector...........to avoid the abuse of power by management. Toss political power into the mix, and it can, and has, gotten ugly in short order. The APWU is in contract negotiations right now, and the wage scale is the least of my concerns.

What's going on in Wisconsin has nothing to do with excessive spending, the Union(s) have offered concessions in those areas. This is about breaking the collective bargaining rights for public employees nationwide.

If this kind of stuff was what it was all about.... I would be behind you 100%. I cannot think of an honest person who would not support the rights of people to be safe in their workplace.

But it's not JUST about that and you know it.

How much do you contribute to your pension? How much do we? What happens if the economy tanks? Does your pension lose value? Is there a chance, that once you retire you might not have that pension?

Don't get me wrong.... I am in NO way jealous of what you have. I've been told that, that I am 'jealous' of the lavish benefits certain unions enjoy. Please...

If you can't tell.... Its the issue of forever pensions that boils my blood. At least private companies have to answer to their shareholders... Unless you are GM and get bailed out... By US!

Finally, don't take this personally, because its not.

[Lady's Human]

If this kind of stuff was what it was all about.... I would be behind you 100%. I cannot think of an honest person who would not support the rights of people to be safe in their workplace.

But it's not JUST about that and you know it.

AT the raw level of a local, this is entirely what it's all about.




How much do you contribute to your pension? How much do we? What happens if the economy tanks? Does your pension lose value? Is there a chance, that once you retire you might not have that pension?



Pension? You mean the prorated "annuity" I get under FERS? It's not much, look it up. My "pension" is a thrift saving plan, AKA a 401-K. If the market tanks, my TSP tanks, very simple. It's MY money, with an agency match, and I pay FICA as well. THe BS being fed to the public by the MSM is the way it USED to be under CSRS. FERS is a whole different breed of cat. In addition, my pension, such as it is, is subject to Congressional whims. If a corporation raids their pension fund, they're subject to federal action. If My employer raids the pension funds (to the tune of $149 BILLION dollars, look it up) it's just another day in DC.



Don't get me wrong.... I am in NO way jealous of what you have. I've been told that, that I am 'jealous' of the lavish benefits certain unions enjoy. Please...

If you can't tell.... Its the issue of forever pensions that boils my blood. At least private companies have to answer to their shareholders... Unless you are GM and get bailed out... By US!

Finally, don't take this personally, because its not.

Again, WHAT forever pension? Where do I sign up?

[Lady's Human]

But Lady's Human-- can it be said that a labor union is also a power-holding entity? Isn't that the goal of negotiations, so that neither side ends up with nothing because the other side had all the power? We've moved away from child labor and horrendously unsafe working conditions that came about because of imbalances of power.

We've moved away from unsafe working conditions? Tell that to the USPS employee in Nashville who was ordered to work in a dock area with broken hydraulic equipment, resulting in injury to an employee.

The APWU was trying to get the USPS to comply with arc-flash regulations for years, instead, after being ignored for years, the Union went to OSHA, resulting in millions in fines. People hammer Ford for their infamous decision regarding the Pinto (cheaper to pay the claims rather than to fix the problem) but your government makes the same decisions day after day regarding the workers.

Is a Union a power holding entity? Yes, but only in the sense that an individual cannot go to Congress and lobby to save their job..........but a Union can go to congress and be heard.

Yes, Puck we evil union officers lobby Congress.............as do corporations, and we have nowhere near the capital resources that a corporation does.

[Puckstop31]

AT the raw level of a local, this is entirely what it's all about.



Pension? You mean the prorated "annuity" I get under FERS? It's not much, look it up. My "pension" is a thrift saving plan, AKA a 401-K. If the market tanks, my TSP tanks, very simple. It's MY money, with an agency match, and I pay FICA as well. THe BS being fed to the public by the MSM is the way it USED to be under CSRS. FERS is a whole different breed of cat. In addition, my pension, such as it is, is subject to Congressional whims. If a corporation raids their pension fund, they're subject to federal action. If My employer raids the pension funds (to the tune of $149 BILLION dollars, look it up) it's just another day in DC.



Again, WHAT forever pension? Where do I sign up?

Thanks for the knowledge.

What you get is fair it seems. I hope you did not take it on the chin too bad of late.... Its much different than the local teacher's union.

---

Please stop it with the "evil" BS. I know you are not evil. I know the average working joe in a union is not evil. You sound like somebody else who posts here....


---

Maybe you need to find another job? It sounds like you have a high frustration level. You said you have system engineer skills. Give me your resume. At my company, you get to be a peer with everyone, even the owners.

Can you speak AS400? I have an opportunity for just such a person.

I am NOT patronizing you. I'm serious. This still is America. If your job is killing you....

[Puckstop31]

Yes, Puck we evil union officers lobby Congress.............as do corporations, and we have nowhere near the capital resources that a corporation does.

I've got almost zero problems with lobbyists. They are a natural part of any democratic system.

The problem is politicians who lets themselves take illegal 'perks'. But that is a whole different convo.

[Cataholic]

I don't do any work for labor. But, I do work in the employment arena (private, non union). To hear people say there is no 'need' for unions is simply, utterly, ridiculous. The public sector, with organized labour, still sets the bar for the employment arena.

It is a dream to say, "there is not a need for unions". A big, fat, dream. I represent the employer....not the employee. It is just so sad the things I hear on a weekly basis.

Go Union.

-signed a person that has never worked FOR a union, with no family member EVER being IN a union.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Sorry boys that I am not familiar with your vulgar "f" talk.

You see ... Sex is like money...people who really have it don't talk about it.

Do carry on!

[RICHARD]

You're one, twice, three times a lay-deh........

[cassiesmom]

:DCF = cluster f**k

I don't usually add much to this topic, but I do know what CF means. It was my favorite term while working with lawyers for 30 some years.

I just looked this up on Urban Dictionary-- some days this expression totally describes my work situation! Especially when the managers have been in lengthy meetings and aren't aware of what has occurred while they were gone. That's an apt description for those moments. Thanks, sasvermont for giving me a laugh today!



We've moved away from unsafe working conditions?
I was thinking of the kind of extreme work conditions Upton Sinclair wrote about in "The Jungle". What a working person would have encountered in 1911, not 2011. Maybe I should have chosen a different phrase. My error.

I think I should stay out of this topic now. Don't want to end up saying something amiss. Off to Thursdays for cocoa.

[RICHARD]

but I've got a 3-word answer: accidental needle sticks.

SHARPS container!

[cassiesmom]

SHARPS container!

exactly- the darn thing was too full and we were taking it out of the holder for environmental services to discard.

[Edwina's Secretary]

At my company, you get to be a peer with everyone, even the owners.


That is easier to achieve when you have 10 or 20 employees.

Not so easy when you have 30,000 or even 100.

That is what unions do. Level the playing field. Put the worker bees on more of a peer level with management.

You are prepared to deny other employees the same working conditions you enjoy?

[Puckstop31]

That is easier to achieve when you have 10 or 20 employees.

Not so easy when you have 30,000 or even 100.

That is what unions do. Level the playing field. Put the worker bees on more of a peer level with management.

You are prepared to deny other employees the same working conditions you enjoy?

Who is denying them the same opportunity? It sure is not me. Those people made a choice to join the union. When you cast your lot in with the "collective", your enjoy the benefits and sometimes the negatives of being part of a 'collective'. Because remember, when you are part of a union, the union HAS to treat EVERYone equally, even the turds. Isn't there a saying about one bad apple? Also, the working conditions I 'enjoy' are not an accident. I busted my ass for a long time to be able to enjoy the freedom I do. And our little company did it ON OUR OWN.

A former client of ours, a company that assembled truck frames. There was a year long battle with the shop unionizing. The company bent over backwards for their people. They told them the honest truth. The workers voted to unionize anyway. 3 months later the doors were shut.

But hey... I've got zero problems with private company union shops. And if a private company is treating their employees poorly, the workers need to do what they need to do. But sometimes, as was the case of the example I used above, the guy driving an air gun got it in his head somewhere that he deserves $35 an hour, fully paid medical and 3 weeks off a year. I wonder where he got that idea?

Economics is a cruel master I suppose. (I know, its not about the money.....)