Fighting fire with fire

[buttercup132]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2008-02-14-guns-shooting_N.htm?loc=interstitialskip

Discuss.

[JenBKR]

Oh boy....are more guns really the answer?

I am not saying that I am anti-gun...but the thought of going to college and knowing that there were other students, professors, etc. carrying guns would have been scary to me. I don't know what can be done to stop the school violence, but I don't really think that more guns is the answer...

[lizbud]

I know this sounds crazy, but honestly, could it get any worst than it is?

It's a crazy world we live in today.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

How will that make things any better??? Mind you, if I knew what the answer was I wouldn't be contemplating another boring day behind that desk tomorrow.

[Edwina's Secretary]

There was another shooting recently (there have been so many it is hard to keep track...) in Kirkwood Missouri. An guy, unhappy about his parking tickets shot up city hall during a meeting. First guy he shot and killed was the armed policeman at the door. He then took his gun and shot the armed policeman inside the building and then the mayor and some others.

Fat lot of good being armed did. Unless you are ready every second of every minute of every day...how do you expect to know? I really doubt most nuts jobs give advance warning so you have time to get your gun out, loaded, cocked and ready to go.

[Catlady711]

Am I the only one that thinks somehow this is all related to those kids who when growing up were allowed to kick/bite/hit other people, throw tantrums, without punishments/consequences because they were 'just a kid' or 'they'll outgrow it'??? I'm talking about the parents that excuse little Johnny/Janie from every little behavior with more excuses than Carter had liver pills.

I saw my neighbor kids allowed to do whatever they wanted and heaven forbid ANYONE should have said anything to them (including 'get off my property, quit digging holes in my driveway, please don't pee on my front shrubs, and please don't shoot the birds at my birdfeeder) without the parents banging on my door using the most foul language for 'picking' on their monsters....er I mean kids. Funny, years later now I'm seeing the kids being brought home in police cars and more than once seen the police show up there with several very angry parents.

Just a thought that guns aren't the problem or the answer, maybe how children are raised is the problem/answer.

My $.02 worth

[buttercup132]

Someone from another forum said guns are outlawed in the UK.
There's been 4 school shooting incidents this week in the US.
Whens the last time you heard about a school shooting in the UK?
Apparently they carry alot of knives in the UK, alot more people can run from a knife then a bullet.


I saw my neighbor kids allowed to do whatever they wanted and heaven forbid ANYONE should have said anything to them Ugh there is a little girl (7/8?) in my sisters class who is like that. She throws tantrums, freaks out on teachers/adults, hits,kicks,throws things (like chairs!) and the kid is only in grade 3! She gets sent to the office and it doesn't bother her, why because her parents are rich snobs who do a sh*tty job on raising their braty kid. She gets whatever she wants. She is going to be such a trouble maker when she's older I can so see it now.

[Giselle]

I seriously do not think guns should be legalized. That's just liberal-Bay-Area-radical-hippie-me, though.

A little boy was shot in Oakland by a stray bullet several weeks (months?) ago during his piano lesson. He was not killed, but he was paralyzed from the legs down. Primarily due to this one incident, Oakland police began a Guns for Cash buy back program, offering $250 for every firearm that was given up to the police. It was an enormous success, and it cleared a couple hundred guns off the streets.

This is in a city that is ranked #4 most dangerous in 2007. We are just fed up with the violence, so we're doing what is most logical - get rid of the guns, get rid of the violence. If Oakland's answer to all the gun violence and homicide is *removing* guns, what makes those at universities think that their answer is to acquire MORE guns?

Why don't we branch out and reach out to our fellow human beings instead? I'm sure 99% of why these kids feel they have to resort to gun violence is based heavily in their mental/emotional issues. It's a sad day when one has to bring a gun to school in order to feel safe.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Of course, it all makes perfect sense. The only way to stop violent deaths caused from gun-fire is to make sure there are MORE guns. :rolleyes:

Honestly, people have so many "reasons" why people become killers and try to justify their insane behavior. There are always going to be crazy psychos in the world despite everyone's best intentions. I think the only way to stop them from doing so much harm is by taking away guns. Sure, there are other ways to kill people, but using a gun is the ONLY way to kill and harm so many people with so little effort.

In my mind there is absolutely no intelligent argument in favor of guns. It's completely astonishing we allow such a menace to our society to thrive and continue to make irrational arguments to keep them legal.

[RICHARD]

I love these stories.

In Oxnard, Ca some little AH shot a kid in the head because the kid cross dressed and wore nail polish.

The following day the parents were out in force walking their kids to schoolbecause they were afraid that it would happen again.

Ya think?

People have a false sense of security because of guns.
Those two cops killed in the courthouse probably never had a chance to pull their guns.

Two weeks ago one of the LAPD SWAT cops was killed and another was shot in the face. They entered a building during a standoff-they had their guns drawn, yet they still got tagged.

You could have the biggest gun in your holster or on your arm and unless you know you are going to get shot at, it won't do you a bit of good.

-----------------------

If you are going to commit a crime and know that no one in the area has a gun, can own a gun or has access to a gun, you probably are going to commit it anyway.

If you are a suicidal idiot or want to commit suicide by by cop, you are going to do it anyway.

-----------------

Me?


I'd rather be in an area, in a crowd where I know people are carrying.

If some idiot decides to start shooting up the place someone will ventilate them before he kills 10,20 people.

I'd much rather take my chances with someone shooting at the shooter than having the shooter firing at everyone that moves.

--------------------

Yeah, outlaw the guns and while you are at it take those stupid video games away from kids.


-----------------

Interesting little thought that came across the radio the other day-

Before, parents called to school because their kids misbehaved would say, "What did my kid do?"

Now, they come in and ask, "What did you do to my kid?"


Guns have been around for years and it's just recently that bad parenting, spoil the child/spare the rod, not letting a kid get stupid and then pay the price, let's ignore movie and video game ratings- are responsible for the little bees-turds going overboard.

When Johnny starts to pull butterfly wings, kill puppies and skin kitties, light fires and beat up the nieighborhood kids we send them to the shrink, he says
ADD, ADHD, Dee Dee Dee (carlos mencia fans get the joke.). We give them Ritalin and then play around with the dosage and should they go off their meds and shoot up a college, we stop and wonder why, how and what started it.


Oh, right- it was guns.

And then I remember that guns don't kill people, bullets do. :confused:

[cmayer31]

...

Guns have been around for years and it's just recently that bad parenting, spoil the child/spare the rod, not letting a kid get stupid and then pay the price, let's ignore movie and video game ratings- are responsible for the little bees-turds going overboard.

When Johnny starts to pull butterfly wings, kill puppies and skin kitties, light fires and beat up the nieighborhood kids we send them to the shrink, he says
ADD, ADHD, Dee Dee Dee (carlos mencia fans get the joke.). We give them Ritalin and then play around with the dosage and should they go off their meds and shoot up a college, we stop and wonder why, how and what started it. ...


I'm split on the issue, but I agree with the above quote 100%.

Guns are a tool used by people to kill yes, but it's not the gun or the law abiding citizens that own guns that cause the majority of problems. The problem is in why society, specifically in the U.S., has become so brain dead that this kind of tragedy has become the norm. There is no such thing as family TV anymore, many kids find educational or non-violent video games to be boring, and kids are enabled more and more to disobey laws, disrespect others, and get away with it.

There is a lot more wrong with these murderes than their ability to access weapons.

Take away guns and the underlying problems won't go away, maybe next they'll just make car bombs, or pipe bombs, or hand built RPG's. Heck when I was a kid my friends and I had all read the anarchist cook book and had all sorts of ideas for building explosives. Luckily for me, and others I guess, my parents raised me well and taught me about respect, compassion, and allowed me to even get in a bit of trouble and learn from it. Today I still play with fireworks, enjoy huge bonfires, drive fast cars, play with high speed and high current motors, shoot high powered bows with a variety of arrows, and even shoot skeet and sporting clays with my shotgun.

The key is that I know the difference between right and wrong, but sadly it seems that more and more people don't know that difference and good role models are undermined so much by the mass media attention on poor role models that any chance of common sense making a come back are very limited. We need to get back to basics as a society.

Sadly, I don't have the first clue how to do that. I wish teachers didn't have to be so afraid of the newfound power of students to disobey and manipulate the system, but how can we have confidence in enabling teachers again when there is story after story of teachers molesting children? We need to empower law enforcement to uphold laws, but how can we trust laws that no longer protect us, but rather protect criminals, or how do we trust the law enforcement officials themselves when we head about all of the corruption and scandals? We need to know the facts of news, but how can we when the personal chaos of celebrity lives make headline news over any good deeds or noteworthy news? For everything that needs to get back to a basic standard there are so many issues that prevent it, that it truly scares me. It really scares me to think about the slippery slope of double standards and false realities that we've created as a society.

However, back to banning all firearms: I own a gun; I own a gun lock. Why should I not be able to own a gun? I don't own it for self defense, home defense, or for any reason other than sport shooting. I think proper training, education, real life experience and a progressively developed common sense go a long way in both gun control and life. I just don't know where these simple traits have gone. :(

Guns have been around since the 17th century and were even easier to get a hold of in years past. Guns aren't the menace, society is.

[jackie]

I have said it before and will say it again, there is NO reason that handguns should be allowed in the general population. The only people who should be able to own and carry handguns are law enforcement.

Less guns on the street, less gun violence on the street. And for those who are saying "it's my right to be able to protect myself and my family from the bad guys", where do you think the bad guys got their guns?

[Pembroke_Corgi]

Do any of the posters who believe violent crime is a result of "bad" parenting and video games realize that crime has actually been in decline since the early 90s? Here's a source, or you can just google it yourself: Crime Stats (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance.htm#Crime) .

If your arguments were plausible, then crime should hypothetically be the highest it has ever been (after all we have way more access to violent games, etc than ever before) but it's not. The fact is that the only way to stop shooting rampages is to make guns illegal.

[cmayer31]

Do any of the posters who believe violent crime is a result of "bad" parenting and video games realize that crime has actually been in decline since the early 90s? Here's a source, or you can just google it yourself: Crime Stats (http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance.htm#Crime) .

If your arguments were plausible, then crime should hypothetically be the highest it has ever been (after all we have way more access to violent games, etc than ever before) but it's not. The fact is that the only way to stop shooting rampages is to make guns illegal.

According to your own stats: Firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993, then slightly increased in 2005.

Hrmm... if we keep violent video games and crime goes down, it also then appears that having guns causes a plummet in related crimes. So not banning video games based on your stats = not making guns illegal. I'll probably go through 3-4 hundred rounds this weekend; should be fun.

Edited to add that in CA it is actually a long process to purchase a gun. I've waited over a month for my most recent purchase of a long gun that will come in on Sunday. To buy a hand gun in CA it is a lot more difficult and a pretty advanced system through the department of justice. Sadly, criminals get their guns the same way druggies get their drugs...illegally and a lot quicker.

[Edwina's Secretary]

The kid in Illinois, the kid in Virginia, the man in Missouri, the woman in Louisiana...were mentally ill. Whether they were "bad kids" raised by "bad parents"...who knows? But clearly, they were mentally ill.

And we have such a gun loving culture that owning an instrument of death (the only reason guns exist is to kill) is a devine right.

People kill people but guns sure make it easier to kill a whold big bunch of unsuspecting people.

[cassiesmom]

Here is my two cents. And I have both a personal and family history of mental conditions, so I'm not exactly living in a glass house on this one.

People who have been treated for mental illnesses (such as the NIU shooter, who underwent treatment for self-injury and was discharged from the military because of mental health problems) SHOULD NOT be able to obtain guns.

But, also, the stigma attached to treatment of mental illness needs to go away. That will take a societal, attitude change. A paradigm shift.

[RICHARD]

People kill people but guns sure make it easier to kill a whold big bunch of unsuspecting people.


Not true. Unless you have a belt fed machine gun you have to stop and reload. :rolleyes:

[Jessika]

There was another shooting recently (there have been so many it is hard to keep track...) in Kirkwood Missouri. An guy, unhappy about his parking tickets shot up city hall during a meeting. First guy he shot and killed was the armed policeman at the door. He then took his gun and shot the armed policeman inside the building and then the mayor and some others.

Fat lot of good being armed did. Unless you are ready every second of every minute of every day...how do you expect to know? I really doubt most nuts jobs give advance warning so you have time to get your gun out, loaded, cocked and ready to go.
Yeah we live not even five minutes from Kirkwood. That was really sad. At least they got the guy though.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Not true. Unless you have a belt fed machine gun you have to stop and reload. :rolleyes:

I read the gunman in Illiniois had a gun that held 60 rounds. That strikes me as a whole lot of people (or even a whold lot of people!)

[lizbud]

This subject certainly has sparked a lot of comment from all over the
country. I read one such comment this morning that has merit I think.


Commentary

Vulnerable schools need protection
Guns, training for teachers may be answer

By David McGrath
February 19, 2008

Thirty-nine students attend my American literature seminar this semester. Our classroom is the first one you see on the left, as you enter the unlocked humanities building.

If a psychotic gunman were searching for a tight cluster of multiple bodies -- an easy target for seeking revenge, casting out demons, achieving immortality or whatever else his perverse purpose happens to be -- he would find my classroom door wide open. He could assume a position straddling the threshold and blocking the exit, so that he could fire at the trapped students at will, reload his weapon and fire once again. We would be sitting ducks in yet another American schoolhouse tragedy.

But if I were packing a loaded automatic pistol in a shoulder holster beneath my jacket, we might have half a chance.


I am no Rambo. I am a middle-age English professor with no military background. But as an outdoorsman, I have a passing acquaintance with the use of firearms, experience which could be refined to a skill of safety and competence, with adequate training.

Years in classroom management in urban high schools, colleges and universities makes me attuned and alert to every individual, and their comings and goings in my classroom.

And because of the responsibility I feel toward my students, I would do whatever I could to protect their lives, even without a weapon. So why not arm me and give them a reasonable chance?

Two years ago, I wrote an essay expressing skepticism about arming school personnel. But that was before the mass murders at Virginia Tech, Louisiana Technical College and Northern Illinois University, among others.

My perspective has changed because the country is changing cataclysmically. The rash of cold-blooded serial killings on campuses is now less an anomaly than a wave of terror. It demands new initiatives to safeguard the lives of people seeking a college education.

I remain adamantly opposed to permitting students to carry concealed weapons. The prospect of thousands of teenage and 20-something students carrying guns on college campuses is only asking for trouble.

But training and equipping seasoned adults, who also happen to be select and exhaustively screened college professors, is a hopeful solution.

I am not suggesting arming all teachers. I have had many brilliant colleagues, who are my betters when it comes to teaching, who, nonetheless, do not inspire trust when they use the office paper cutter, let alone a 9 mm Glock.

My suggestion, rather, is for the institution of a voluntary program for willing, able and properly trained school personnel to carry weapons.

My hope is that they will never have to use them. My belief is that a future, inevitable school sniper will be stopped dead by a sociology or economics or literature professor, the news of which may lead to a subsequent, precipitous decline in school shootings.

Any such proposal will meet a lot of resistance. After all, we worry about guns, no matter who has them. I know individual school security guards whom I'd rather see with a baton or a can of pepper spray than a Smith & Wesson.

But besides being a teacher, I am also a parent with three children who have attended colleges away from home.

And I believe that, as a father, if I'm apprised that coach Jones in the gym building, and professor Maddox in the arts center, and Dr. Heinz in the science lab, have all volunteered for weapons training, because they wanted to protect the lives of my children, I would sleep a lot better at night.

----------

David McGrath, an emeritus professor at the College of DuPage, is teaching English at the University of South Alabama.

[Pembroke_Corgi]

According to your own stats: Firearm-related crime has plummeted since 1993, then slightly increased in 2005.

Hrmm... if we keep violent video games and crime goes down, it also then appears that having guns causes a plummet in related crimes. So not banning video games based on your stats = not making guns illegal.
This makes absolutely no sense at all because obviously if guns didn't exist there would be zero gun-related crime. Fluctuating statistics doesn't make the case that guns are safe no matter how you look at it.

Probably crime dropped after 1993 due to the Violent Crime and Law Enforcement Act passed in 1994. Part of this act also included an assault weapons ban. The assault weapons ban expired in 2004, which actually could account for the increase in fire-arms related crime in 2005.

[RICHARD]

The jefe de la policia, for the LAPD is Wm. Bratton.

Formerly of the NYPD, he has made it a point to reduce all crime in Lost Angeles-the 'statistics' bear this out! :rolleyes:


The crime stats for the different precincts get skewed like this.

East valley

2004 - 4 deaths
2005 - 2 deaths

HOLY Hollow point! A 50% drop in murders!

West valley

2004-10 deaths
2005- 8 deaths

A 20% drop-combine those two numbers and you get a phenomenal percentage drop in the murder rate.

Not a good indicator-

-------

ANd what constitutes a crime rate?

Those numbers area a mish mosh of violent crimes-can we look at the gun related numbers on their own?

--------

ES,

I didn't read any stories about the guns- I just heard that it was two pistols and a shotgun.


---------

MY last comment is about some of the schools here in El Lay/cah lee fuh nee ah and crime in general.

Some have metal detectors at the front gates. Everyone goes thru them....
The schools, like the one in Oxnard, where people believe that "nothing like this has ever happened here"have none and the reaction to a school shooting makes me scream and laugh.

Evil has a passport that allows access to any point on the planet.
If you have such a narrow field of view concerning guns, kids and massacres in a school, I am really sorry about the wake up call, but am totally stunned at your ignorance.


Our ignorance expands to a store clerk getting shot over a few bucks in a store. We can shake those off ad nauseum, every day...But when Eric and Dylan go 'ballistic' in Littleton, Colorado we reel in shock and climb over ourselves to figure out why!

Is it any more shocking to go thru the ashes of a massacre and find a reason than it is to not to find one?

Oh, the "trenchcoat mafia" left us videos, comp files and detailed plans. So we know why they did it.

To make "sense" of a senseless killing really makes sense.
Typical stupidity on all our parts. We just need an reason why and pulling a gun in a high school makes perfect sense. :rolleyes:

[Catlady711]

I'm split on the issue, but I agree with the above quote 100%.

Guns are a tool used by people to kill yes, but it's not the gun or the law abiding citizens that own guns that cause the majority of problems. The problem is in why society, specifically in the U.S., has become so brain dead that this kind of tragedy has become the norm. There is no such thing as family TV anymore, many kids find educational or non-violent video games to be boring, and kids are enabled more and more to disobey laws, disrespect others, and get away with it.

There is a lot more wrong with these murderes than their ability to access weapons.

The key is that I know the difference between right and wrong, but sadly it seems that more and more people don't know that difference and good role models are undermined so much by the mass media attention on poor role models that any chance of common sense making a come back are very limited. We need to get back to basics as a society.


Two words come to my mind on the cause of alot of this misery....

"Situational Ethics"