17 Kids!!!

[Hellow]

I was just watching the Today show and this family has an colossal 17 kids!:eek: They ranged from 9 weeks to 19 years old. And you should have seen their pantry! Its an grocery store! When they are at the real grocery store, it takes 7 carts to fill up their pantry. And their mom home - schools all of them! Everyone should have saw it, it was amazing.

[Taz_Zoee]

Is that the one where they built their own home? If it is, that means they had another kid since building the house. :eek: There was a special on the TLC Network showing them building the house. All the kids helped actually build the house.
All the children's names start with the letter J as well.

[Edwina's Secretary]

I find nothing admirable in what this couple has done. On the contrary.

[Catty1]

Where the heck does the money come from? I saw the show when they had "only" 16 kids. I just did NOT get it.

[Hellow]

Is that the one where they built their own home? If it is, that means they had another kid since building the house. :eek: There was a special on the TLC Network showing them building the house. All the kids helped actually build the house.
All the children's names start with the letter J as well.

Yes, i believe that was it but they had them visit Today in NYC. And the house was completely built.

[dukedogsmom]

I find nothing admirable in what this couple has done. On the contrary.
Amen, Edwina! I don't understand the fascination/worship of people like this. What's so admirable about people who refuse to use birth control? As pointed out in another forum, if they want so many kids, why not adopt some instead of contributing to overpopulation? And don't even get me started on home skooling. That makes them even more unrespectable. Poor older kids proabably babysit in their spare time. As for money, why it comes from TLC, of course.

[Catty1]

I know one family with three kids who are home-schooled; thank goodness both parents are educated and disciplined - the kids are great.

But too often, you can tell the HS kids by their lack of discipline. Sad.

[elizabethann]

And I thought 7 kids was allot! I couldn't imagine having to share the bathroom with 10 more! :eek:

[Sevaede]

The Duggar family. They have had several specials on television. Their first one was filmed when they were having their 14th, I believe. They could not support all their children (and everything that entailed!) so either by TLC and/or the community the couple got a new house complete with all the stops.

Here is a link to the online version of the story, with a clip.

Duggar (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20134584/)

[pitc9]

Half an hour after their last one was born they were talking about having another one. :eek:

I don't get it and never will.
I know that they make all their own clothes too.

[critter crazy]

I cant even begin to understand why people will have so many kids. Heck i stopped after one! I am broke constantly cause of my son, medical, dental, vision, clothes, sprts,food ect.... I cant even imagine how much money it costs to raise 17!!! Phhhhttttt.....no thanks!!!

[Donnaj4962]

I understand what some of you are saying, about their bringing more kids into the world while others are waiting for adoption. However, I have to say, I do admire them in that their kids are all very well behaved. The older ones act as a "buddy" for a younger one. (Each "pair" is an older child with a younger child".) While that may seem like babysitting to some, I see it as a form of teaching each child respect and cooperation and responsibility.

From the specials that I have seen, they do not have a lot of toys/gadgets that most children have. To quote the Dad in one of the specials.... "They buy used and save the difference." And, according to him, they always pay cash for everything. HOWEVER, I have NO idea how he can make enough money to feed and clothe that entire family. :rolleyes: :eek: So I am certain that TLC has helped them immensely. It took them many years to build their current house since they paid cash AND built it themselves. However, there was a special on TLC of them finishing their house and suddenly there was all new furnishings and I am certain that was all a gift from TLC and their sponsors!

As you can tell, I have mixed emotions about this family. On one hand, I admire them for their organization skills and their parenting. On the other hand, I keep thinking, "enough is enough" already! :eek:

[petslover]

I have been keeping up with this family's story for awhile. I find it amazing that their kids are all so well behaved. Heck, I see people with one child that runs and screams everywhere. I just don't know how they do it with 17.

I wouldn't want 17 kids, but more power to them.

They seem like a happy family too.

[moosmom]

:eek: Better them than me!!

[Chilli]

As long as they are all happy, its cool by me. Like my mum told me: "If only we were that organized!"
Its their life, and if this is how they want to live it, more power to them! :)
My grandmum had 11 kids, and I always thought that was a big family..

[sparks19]

I know one family with three kids who are home-schooled; thank goodness both parents are educated and disciplined - the kids are great.

But too often, you can tell the HS kids by their lack of discipline. Sad.


I agree.... there are plenty of really good homeschooling programs out there to help get parents started and I know many homeschooling families and those children aren't "missing out" on anything and they aren't poorly socialized like some people assume homeschooled children are. I will be sure not to come and post here if we decide to homeschool.

As for 17 kids.... YIKES. Not for me lol. We would prefer two maybe even three children but we will see how this delivery goes before I commit to THAT LOL.

I just think it is admirable that with all the parents out there that can't keep one child under control and teach them respect that this family has managed to have 17 respectful well raised children.

[Catty1]

Sparks - I think more and more people are deciding to homeschool, with increasing drugs and violence in the public system.

I think if it were better funded, standards could be formalized a bit more.

If you do decide to homeschool, it would be fascinating to learn about it along with you! :)

[Edwina's Secretary]

......even if I thought they could support all these children without ANY assistance (which I don't believe for one minute) imagine what it would to this planet if everyone had 17 children and each of those children has 17 children and each of those children and so on and so on.

The same as cats and dogs who are allowed to breed too much.

[lizbud]

I really don't think it's anything to be proud (or praised ) about.It's a
tremendous responsibilty & then there's the Mother's health to consider.

Can you imagine getting 17 kids really for College? :eek:

[dukedogsmom]

My grandmum had 11 kids, and I always thought that was a big family..
And she did it on her own, which is to really be admired. Not depending on news and tv programs to support the family.



I really don't think it's anything to be proud (or praised ) about.It's a
tremendous responsibilty & then their's the Mother's health to consider.

Can you imagine getting 17 kids really for College? :eek:
Someone else will more than likely foot the bill for that, too. I guess she's just going to keep breeding until her body gives out on her. Then she'll have all those kids to take care of her. As for all the kids, she's not thinking of anything else except what she wants. Who cares how many thousands of Pampers, etc go to the landfills. I read that the count was 90,000. It's all about her. It disgusts me. And there's no way she can be schooling them all properly. There's just not enough time in the day.

[Twisterdog]

I do think overpopulation is a problem.

I also think that people should be able to do whatever they want to do with their own lives, as long as it harms no one else AND they can pay for it themselves.

So, I suppose, as long as they are not asking for hand-outs or getting welfare, it's no one else's business but theirs. It would REALLY irk me if WE were supporting seventeen kids with our tax dollars.

I, like others mentioned, simply do not understand why the public is so fascinated with stories like this. If they want to have litters of offspring, so be it, but let us not glorify the choice.

[crow_noir]

17 kids... They have a few more to go to catch up to my high school French teacher. OMG, where do they all come from? Yikes. :rolleyes:

I went to school with one of the guy's sons. Nice enough kid... strange family.

I'm not even going to get on my soapbox.

[Miss Z]

What is the problem with them having such a big family? It's their choice, and all the children look very well-cared for and happy. I see nothing wrong with that.


They don't need admiration, quite, they could easily opt not to broadcast their family life. But the fact is it makes good television and people, being inquisitive in nature, are always going to be intrigued by such stories. I don't find them particularly fascinating, but I find how each sibling helps each other out in education and housework very endearing. How many families do you know of with one, two or three kids who are as well-behaved and organised as the Duggars? I am certain my brother and I have, and will never, work together as dilligently and as maturely as those kids!

It may seem very odd to see such large families now, but remember that in our grandparents generation, the majority of families had well over 5 kids, many into double figures. True, perhaps not all survived childhood, but my grandmother can recall her uncle being from a family of 16, and her friends coming from families of 10+. The world is over-populated, yes, but I doubt that their example is really going to catch on in the developed world. http://petoftheday.com/i/our_smilies/wink.gif

[Pam]

As for 17 kids.... YIKES. Not for me lol. We would prefer two maybe even three children but we will see how this delivery goes before I commit to THAT LOL.

I just think it is admirable that with all the parents out there that can't keep one child under control and teach them respect that this family has managed to have 17 respectful well raised children.

Agreed Sparks. I am not their judge and neither is anyone else. Last I checked we had freedom to do as we please here in this country and that includes having large families if we want. Personally it would not be for me. :eek: I feel it is much the same with people who have multitudes of pets. In both cases surely there isn't much *one on one* time with either the kids or pets in such situations. I would rather watch a program such as this than some of the shows which almost glorify dysfunctional families (druggies and the like...not mentioning any names here... cough cough).

[jackie]

Are they part of a religious group?

[dukedogsmom]

Are they part of a religious group?
Oh, don't yu know it? Quiverfull. Now why am I not surprised?
http://www.quiverfull.com/articles.php/id20/ :rolleyes:

[inlovewithanimals]

My grandmother had 14 kids but 2 died at birth but she suported them all on her own and it was always the children come first she would do whatever she had to do for them.


Justin

[columbine]

I know a bunch of people who were homeschooled, and who had a hard time getting the hang of the Code of the Playground (might makes right, lying's cool if you don't get caught, ridicule the one the others ridicule or you get ridiculed yourself, etc.) because they were raised with stuff like the Golden Rule instead. One thing they've all told me is that summer activities, like sports or drama, and Scouts/Guides were integral to their development, because they could find "translator" buddies who could help them avoid the worst abuse and come through with integrity.

It's true that homeschooling is becoming more popular among those who are afraid to send their kids to public schools because of drugs and violence, but can't afford private school. Because of that, there are lots of parents' groups, online and local, springing up where homeschooling parents can share ideas and resources and moral support.

But it's also compounding the ghettoization of public school unleashed (at least here in the USA) by the No Child Left Behind legislation, and concentrating the low-income kids with health and social challenges in schools that burn through teachers like matches, moreso because it's young, inexperienced teachers who have to prove themselves in the trenches before they can get a job in a safer school where they can teach instead of just put out fires. Few make it that far before deciding to switch careers.

So, I guess, homeschooling's a good option if you can manage it, but make sure the kids get to play with hard-knocks kids too... and that, if they want to be teachers, that they put in boatloads of volunteer hours in a nice PRIVATE school so they'll have an in when they graduate! :(

[Edwina's Secretary]

Last I checked we had freedom to do as we please here in this country and that includes having large families if we want.

Except get married and/or raise a family if you are gay.

If this family would be black or hispanic...would it make as good a television show? Or would the response be..."why do those people breed so?" I hear that about families a lot smaller than 17!

Once upon a time large families were important. You had high infant mortality, needed more hands for the farm, needed the kids to support you in your old age.

Now a family this big is a drain on the planet and society.

And I am free to find it disgusting! :) :rolleyes: ;)

[jackie]

Except get married and/or raise a family if you are gay.

If this family would be black or hispanic...would it make as good a television show? Or would the response be..."why do those people breed so?" I hear that about families a lot smaller than 17!



The truthfulness of that made me LOL! I could just picture someone tut tut tutting about "the immigrants who pump out babies to get more welfare".

[popcornbird]

I don't see why anyone has a problem with them having 17 children. I watched their video interviews, and honestly, I feel they are a beautiful family, with well-behaved, and very responsible children. If they're happy with it, and are taking care of their children, well, then what's your problem??? The parents taking care of that many children, the kids working together as a team...running such a large household successfully, I do think that's admirable.

Besides, no one has the right to condemn a husband and wife for having as many children as they want. Most people want 2 or 3 or 4, and that's perfectly fine, but if someone wants 10 or 12 or 20, if they're responsible and take care of them, and all of those children are well-fed, cared for, loved, then it really is no one's business to condemn them. Did they tell you to have 17 kids? No. Are they your 'kids'? No. Then really, what is everyone's problem?

And Catty, about homeschooled kids lacking discipline, you are completely wrong. In fact, it is usually the other way around, though I do not like to generalize and know there are good and bad kids both in public school, and 'home school'. My brother and I were homeschooled for the majority of our school years, and I grew up knowing many homeschooled kids. We used to go on field trips together, had picnics together, did projects together, and to be honest, it was truly a wonderful experience. I wouldn't trade my past for a chance to attend public school for those years for a million dollars. I had my parents' love at home. I got daily trips to the park for play time and exercise. I got to learn 'fun' things along with school things. I got to socialize more with discipline kids, and never got teased or bullied. Most of all, I developed a really close bond with my family, that is still there with me today. Again, I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world.

Would I homeschool my kids? I don't know. It all depends on the situation when I have kids, but I truly admire and appreciate the time and effort my parents took to do it for me, and I appreciate it even more today, after growing up.

[Catty1]

Hi, PCB - I was speaking mostly about the public's perception, and said it the wrong way.

I worked in a store a few years ago, and this man and his son left after coming in for a while.

My boss's mom (family business) asked me if I knew how to tell kids were home-schooled. I said how?

She said they were undisciplined.

Over the years, I came to know this family, and their adopted son was ADHD. After every natural method in the world, and biofeedback, they finally tried Ritalin. It worked like a charm! And he never was homeschooled.

However - with what my boss's mom said, obviously homeschooling doesn't have a good reputation "out there". I hope that has changed over the past few years.

[Edwina's Secretary]

IBesides, no one has the right to condemn a husband and wife for having as many children as they want.

I disagree PCB. I feel I have the right. I am a citizen of planet earth. That gives me the right to condemn them (not forbid them...)

We are seeing more and more each day how limited are the resources of this planet.

I see nothing admirable in over-breeding...dogs, cats or people.

[dukedogsmom]

"The Duggars do annoy me more than other quiver full families. Probably because they are pimping their lifestyle on TV for money and publicity. It bugs me. I admit it fully. Especially when you throw in their tax-exempt status. (I really do need to start worshiping Mighty Mouse and form my own home-based church so I too, can enjoy this little benefit) It just sickens me. They pimp themselves to a world that they don’t even approve of. How much more hypocritical can someone get?

I don’t have a problem with the stereotypical gender roles that they adhere to.** I don’t even have a problem with the Little House on the Prairie wardrobe. I have a problem with a group of hypocrites who are pimping themselves on national TV…not only for the money because it is individual people’s choice to watch the show or not, and if people don’t want to watch, then they wouldn’t be on, but also the whole political aspirations of Jim Bob being furthered by this. So, it’s okay to appeal to the outside world of which they don’t approve, as long as it furthers their crazy aspirations? Either stick to the lifestyle and live it, or admit that they are a bunch of hypocrites. Other quiver full families don’t attempt to mainstream themselves. They know it’s their personal choice, don’t seek public approval, and just continue on.

And I really have a problem with children raising children and taking care of the household, while mom sits on her tush cranking out the next one. I get no impression that Michelle is a hands on mother after those children hit 3mos. old. Once they hit that age she hands them off and starts working on the next one. It’s sick. The human body wasn’t made to handle it either. She’ll be dead by the time she’s 50, and her uterus will be gone long before then. It isn’t healthy, nor something to aspire to."
Taken from here: http://www.cynical-c.com/?p=7433

The point I was making about homeschooling is the mother doesn't do most of it. It's done by one of the siblings. I can't find the article I read earlier but it was quoting Jim Bob about their daily schedule. I pity these kids when they do get old enough to have to go out into the real world (if they're lucky enough to escape.
http://www.visionforum.com/hottopics/blogs/dwp/duggar2.jpg

Living there would be like being stuck in vacation bible school. They haven't even been given the chance to be their own persons and have their own views of the world. They're all doomed to live the horrible life their great parents have decided for them.

Yeah, they're debt free. That's because of all the handouts. Yeah, it's their business how many kids they want to have. But don't expect TV shows, etc, to pay for them and companies to give them free things. My problem with all this, besides the earth situation, is that they are exploiting themselves to and for the public. That's why I picked that post out. Pretty much sums it up for me.
**I do have a problem with the females roles, though.

[mike001]

Amazing to read all the posts on this family. I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with a couple having 17 or more children. It wasn't that long ago that our grandparents were doing the same thing.
I don't understand all the anger. It really is none of anybody's business but their own how they live their lives. They aren't hurting anyone, the children all look healthy, well fed, clean and very polite and respecful. Also very well behaved which is a rarity these days. Being home schooled isn't new, it's been around for years. If I were raising my kids in today's world, I too would home school them.

The family reminds me of "The Sound of Music". I wouldn't want 17 children myelf, but to whoever can handle it, more power to them. To say they are damaging and polluting the world or the earth is ridiculous. The family probably recycles more than your average family who throw pop cans and empty snack packs all over. They don't own dogs that poop all over while owners walk away and leave the mess there. They don't throw coffee cups and water bottles all over the earth like most people do. And you can be sure they don't pollute with cigarettes or liquor bottles.

I don't think they are exploiting the tv and radio shows,it would be the other way around. If something sells, the tv companies want it and are willing to pay for it. The newspapers all want the rights to the story and are willing to pay for it. If the family can make money by agreeing to do shows and interviews I see no harm in it.

I'VE BEEN BOO'D :cool:

[dukedogsmom]

To say they are damaging and polluting the world or the earth is ridiculous. The family probably recycles more than your average family who throw pop cans and empty snack packs all over. They don't own dogs that poop all over while owners walk away and leave the mess there. They don't throw coffee cups and water bottles all over the earth like most people do. And you can be sure they don't pollute with cigarettes or liquor bottles.

Guess the 90,000 diapers used don't have anything to do with pollution, then.

[columbine]

Quality of life issues aside, intentionally having 17 kids is irresponsible, given what we know scientifically about human overloading of the planet. But if their religion forbids them to heed scientific evidence, there's not a whole lot anybody can say, so long as they're actually footing the bill for their huge brood (even if it's just by fleecing parishioners, because even that is a sorta-kinda free will... well, maybe...)

Love, Columbine

[mike001]

Does anyone know without a doubt that they are using disposable diapers?

Maybe it has nothing to do with religion, maybe it has to do with love for children.

If we bring religion into it, the Bible states God's own words: Go forth and multiply.

I would hate to put my nose in anybody's business or their bedrooms.

If having so many children is so wrong, why is it right for every Tom, Dick and Harry to breed litter after litter? Dogs and cats take up space, eat, poop, make noise and take up space. We wouldn't chase all dogs and cats off the planet would we?

[columbine]

If having so many children is so wrong, why is it right for every Tom, Dick and Harry to breed litter after litter?It's not.
We wouldn't chase all dogs and cats off the planet would we?No, we'd take as many of them as we could to the vet and get them spayed/neutered. And if enough of us did it, pretty soon every kitten or puppy would live with people who could take good care of them, maybe even take them to obedience school.

Love, Columbine

[Pam]

Except get married and/or raise a family if you are gay.

If this family would be black or hispanic...would it make as good a television show? Or would the response be..."why do those people breed so?" I hear that about families a lot smaller than 17!

Once upon a time large families were important. You had high infant mortality, needed more hands for the farm, needed the kids to support you in your old age.

Now a family this big is a drain on the planet and society.

And I am free to find it disgusting! :) :rolleyes: ;)

Sara you can't be serious. First of all gays get married all the time in this country and are raising families every day. I fail to see any connection, however, with the topic posted.

Regarding the drain on society, it appears from the article posted by Dukedogsmom that the father is handling things quite well on his own with no help from the government or TLC as others thought.

Of course you are free to be disgusted but I don't imagine the Duggers care one little bit.

I am not condoning pumping out a child every year. I find it hard to believe that anyone would want to do that. I do, however, have a problem with others who think they have the right to judge others who might want to. How is it harming you and why do you care? :confused: :rolleyes:

[Lady's Human]

I'm just confused as to what the heck their religion has to do with any of this. I grew up with a classmate who was one of 13 (Catholic), known others who weren't particularly religious but grew up in a family with double digit children, had a co-worker who was atheist and had 9 children, etc. Doesn't seem to me to have anything to do with religion, more of a personal choice of the parents.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Sara you can't be serious. First of all gays get married all the time in this country and are raising families every day. I fail to see any connection, however, with the topic posted.

I do, however, have a problem with others who think they have the right to judge others who might want to. How is it harming you and why do you care? :confused: :rolleyes:

Glad you asked, Pam. The state of Florida, for example, does not allow gays to adopt children. There are only what, one or two states that allow them to marry? You stated
Last I checked we had freedom to do as we please here in this country and that includes having large families if we want. Simply not true. If the state can regulate whether a gay couple can adopt a child...how can you say we are free to do whatever we want in regard to family structure?

Yes, I am harmed and yes I care. Unless this family does not produce any waste and does not consume any energy and does in any way contribute to the use of natural resources and does not use public roads nor fuel in their four vehicles (including a 20 person van :eek: :eek: ) ...in which case I am not harmed.

Meanwhile I am paying taxes to dispose of their waste and provide them with public roads, water, etc. They do not pay more because of the size of their family.

I care because, although I do not have children, I have nieces and I have step-children and a step-grandchild. And I want them to be able to live in a world with clean water. And adequate food. And natural resources.

And no, I suppose the Duggars don't care about my opinion. As I don't care about the Duggars opinion of me.

But I do care about the state of the planet that will be inherited by the 289 grandchildren (if each of the 17 children has 17 children) and 4,913 great-granchildren (if each of those grandchildren has 17 children) and 83,521 great-great grandchildren and 1,419,857 great-great-great grandchildren.

[Sevaede]

As long as they are all happy, its cool by me. Like my mum told me: "If only we were that organized!"
Its their life, and if this is how they want to live it, more power to them! :)
My grandmum had 11 kids, and I always thought that was a big family..

I'm glad I'm not the only one with a big family! :o My grandfather had 13 kids and I was always sort of amazed (kinda) by it.. :eek:

[Twisterdog]

I do not believe that comparisons to our grandparents, great-grandparents, great-great-grandparents large families to modern day life is not valid.

For one thing, there were no reliable means of birth control available to them. A woman couldn't simply take a birth control pill, they didn't exist. Birth control as we know it now is a very new invention.

For another, our society was mainly an agricultural one back then. Parents owned a farm, and children worked on the farm. The more kids you had, the more work got done, the more pigs got slaughtered, eggs gathered, cows milked. Children added to your lifestyle, and were a means of support. The vast majority of people did not attend college, or get jobs away from the family farm. That is generally not the case now.

Also, the mortaility rate was higher. Vaccinations were not in existance, or not prevelant. Accidents, epidemics, poor nutrition, and common illness claimed many more young lives than they do now. It was simple math ... if a couple needed five strong young men to help run the family farm, they had better have about fifteen kids, knowing that about seven would be women who would marry and go to their husbands' farms, and at least three would die in childhood.

[Giselle]

Ever since the industrial revolution(s), our population has grown exponentially. As we all know, exponential growth means RAPID growth in a very very short amount of time. Additionally, we are incredibly close (if not overreaching) our carrying capacity, and, as history has taught us, once we overstep the boundaries of our carrying capacity, we die off to let Nature recuperate. So, yeah, I do care, and, no, I don't find anything about this family admirable.

I have to agree with Edwina's Secretary: Poor Mother Earth!!

[popcornbird]

Sara, I fail to see how this family effects you, your taxes, your life. Really. Okay, so this family has 17 kids. Fine. I'm sure we have a lot more than just 17 couples here on PT who do not have ANY kids, due to infertility, or just by choice. So...if 17 childless couples had 1 kid each, that would make 17 kids...the same number of diapers disposed in the country, the same number of 'additional' children in the country, using the same amount of resources.

My point? We hardly have ANY family with 17 kids in the country, and probably few across the world today. Why does it matter if THIS family has 17? What makes us so sure that all of the kids will have 17 kids each? Jeez...my mom never used birth control pills, and she got 2 kids in her lifetime. Just two. There's no guarantee on how many kids one is going to get. Not being on BC is not a guarantee that someone will end up with a lot of kids. Every kid that is born in this world comes because God wants that child here. So, if God chose to bless this family with 17 children, all of whom they love, what is everyone's problem? Its not like everyone out there is having 17 kids. No one is! So if this family is the only one that had 17 kids, I don't really see how it has such a great impact on the population. Again, there are thousands of couples that have NO children.

God has created a balance in this world. To some people, He gives many. To some, less. To some boys. To some girls. To some both. To some, none. Its not like everyone in the world is going to have 17 kids now. Come on...

And to compare them with gays, that just does not make any sense. You can't compare apples and oranges. The government doesn't want gays to marry, not because 'they control family life'. Its because marriage is between man and woman, and that is how God made mankind, and made the world, and the reason He made two genders, and that's just how it is, and has been, from day 1. People can argue all they want, have whatever opinion they want to have, but at the end of the day, people do that in regards to everything. And at the end of the day, not everyone arguing is right. The excuse 'who are we to judge who someone else falls in love with?'...well, people fall in love everyday, and some people cheat on their spouse because they 'couldn't help falling in love with that girl at work'. There's something called feelings, which we cannot control, and something called action, which we can control...and some actions are wrong, period. I do not disapprove of gays because of their feelings. I disapprove of their actions. And, as a member of planet earth, I guess I have the right to comment on that too. :p:p:p

I know this is a hot topic, but Sara, you know I've always liked you, so please don't take any of this to heart. Its just how I feel on this issue.


And before anyone thinks I'd want 17 kids, I wouldn't. I couldn't handle that many, but I would love to have 3 or 4 or 5. And I don't think having a baby every year is good for a mother's health either. All I'm saying is if they can manage it fine, and if all 19 members of the family are happy, then more power to them. I don't know how they do it, but clearly, they seem to be doing just fine at it.

Giselle, I don't get your comment regarding us 'dying'. We're all going to die anyway, one day, and the next generation will replace us. That's how the cycle of life goes, and no, there's nothing we can do to prevent that. Its going to happen whether people have 0 kids, or 20.

[lady_zana]

And to compare them with gays, that just does not make any sense. You can't compare apples and oranges. The government doesn't want gays to marry, not because 'they control family life'. Its because marriage is between man and woman, and that is how God made mankind, and made the world, and the reason He made two genders, and that's just how it is, and has been, from day 1.

This is slightly off-topic and please don't think my disagreeing with your view is a slight on you because you always post in a respectful and polite manner.

That said, I have a real problem with this argument. It's one I've heard many times before. "Gays can't marry because God made marriage between a man and a woman." In America, government is not supposed to be ruled by religion. Even if one thinks marriage should only between a man and a woman because of their religion, our government should NOT take that into account when making a decision. If you take religion out of the picture, I can't think of any reasons that gays should not be allowed to marry.

If any religion disapproved of gay marriage, they should have the right to not perform the ceremony but there is no reason two men or two women should not be allowed to marry in a civil ceremony at the courthouse if they wish to do so.

[Pam]

Glad you asked, Pam. The state of Florida, for example, does not allow gays to adopt children. There are only what, one or two states that allow them to marry?

Yes, and people are free to actually move from state to state and do it often for many reasons. I would imagine that to a gay person this might be a good reason to move. I repeat again that I do not see the connection at all between that topic and the original idea behind this thread.

I suppose you might also think that, in keeping with the explosive population, sterilizing people based on their family income might be a good idea. After all, a poor family cannot contribute much at all to the planet but instead just takes. Where I have heard the term *unproductive eaters* before? I shudder to think where your attitude could take us.

Yes, you pay taxes and so do I. Your tax dollars are no different than mine yet you take such offense. I think your problem with this family goes deeper than just the size of their family.

[jackie]

I'm just confused as to what the heck their religion has to do with any of this. I grew up with a classmate who was one of 13 (Catholic), known others who weren't particularly religious but grew up in a family with double digit children, had a co-worker who was atheist and had 9 children, etc. Doesn't seem to me to have anything to do with religion, more of a personal choice of the parents.

I was the one who brought up religion because I was curious if they were member of a religion which disapproves of birth control.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Yes, and people are free to actually move from state to state and do it often for many reasons. I would imagine that to a gay person this might be a good reason to move. I repeat again that I do not see the connection at all between that topic and the original idea behind this thread.

I suppose you might also think that, in keeping with the explosive population, sterilizing people based on their family income might be a good idea. After all, a poor family cannot contribute much at all to the planet but instead just takes. Where I have heard the term *unproductive eaters* before? I shudder to think where your attitude could take us.

Yes, you pay taxes and so do I. Your tax dollars are no different than mine yet you take such offense. I think your problem with this family goes deeper than just the size of their family.

Please do not analyse me without a license! ;)

And PCB...
The government doesn't want gays to marry, not because 'they control family life'. Its because marriage is between man and woman, and that is how God made mankind, and made the world,

The government of the United States should NOT be making decisions based on religion just as religious leaders hould not be making political decisions!

I have a problem with overpopulators - white, black, brown, christian, muslim.

So, if a man went on the Today Show (or Jerry Springer) and introduced his wife, then said he was also having relations with her sister, her brother, her mother, her grandmother, her great uncle and his wife, your response would be..."this is a free country so I make no judgement!"

I am my brother's keeper, no man is an island, etc. WE all have to live on this earth together so I DO get to have an opinion (judgement if you prefer) about how others are using the planet. And so do you.

Do you think if I see someone polluting it would be judgemental of me to disapprove? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[lady_zana]

The government of the United States should NOT be making decisions based on religion just as religious leaders hould not be making political decisions!



That's what I said! I completely agree!




Yes, and people are free to actually move from state to state and do it often for many reasons. I would imagine that to a gay person this might be a good reason to move.


Gay people shouldn't HAVE to move. They should be allowed to marry and adopt kids in ANY state. I would be interested in hearing any arguments against gay marriage and adoption that are not religious-based.

[sparks19]

It just sounds to me like people are just out for a good witch hunt here.

All the issues brought up about this family are based on nothing but assumptions. They are polluting the earth with 90,000 diapers (yet you don't know if they even used disposable. You just assume) Well then they consume more food and produce more waste (yet you don't know if they have a compost, recycle, etc etc.) They COULD be more earth friendly than anyone around them but that wouldn't matter to any of you because there are 19 of them.... well I for one think that perhaps 19 people who always turn off the lights, unplug appliances, recycle everything that can be recycled, compost etc etc are much better for the planet than say.... 19 families of 3 that do NONE of that.... and we all know there are PLENTY of those families. All based on assumption of what you THINK this family does or doesn't do. Not to mention "It's MY tax money" Well eventually all 19 of those people will be paying tax money too.... but I'll bet they don't throw a hissy fit everytime you use their roads. Your tax money vs 19 people's tax money.... seems they will be paying more into taxes than you do.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Nineteen people create more waste than five people. I don't care if they use cloth diapers, disposable diapers or no diapers. Human beings create waste...and more human beings create more waste...and consume more water and put more weight on the roads and more pollution into the enviornment.

I brought up the taxes in response to a question I was asked. "How am I harmed?" Please do not try and twist that response into something entirely different and inane.

Here it is. I am harmed as a taxpayer and as a citizen of planet earth.

These two people have produced 17 more consumers.

I do not care what their religion is or their race. I do not care if they educate their children at home or not at all.

They are, in my opinion, selfish and irresponsible. I would feel that way if they live in the ghetto, a mansion or on a farm.

Overpopulation is a serious threat. Overbreeders should not be glorified in my opinion.

[Giselle]

I did not mean "dying" as in our own personal lives. I meant "dying" in the context of carrying capacity.

We are reaching, if not overreached, carrying capacity. As soon as we hit the carrying capacity, the entire human race plummets because there is too many people and not enough resources. By "dying off", I mean that literally. I mean subjecting our next generation to decreased resources and, ultimately, premature death. This family has produced 17 children and raises them under a belief that God wants us to create more and more children. Those 17 children may not produce 17 children themselves, but their parents' beliefs will help them to harbor the desire to create more children, or a "quiver full" so to speak.

[mike001]

The opinions on here totally amaze me. I fail to see where anyone has more right than another to live on our planet earth. Judging people by the number of children they have just isn't civilized. If they can open their hearts and love 17 kids, then so be it. I know I could never do it, but I have nothing against large families.
Some of the opinions sound like Hitler's view on Jews, he didn't think Jews should be allowed on the planet either.
This family is probably happier then your average family who are so busy with their own lives that they never see or do anything as a family unit.
The Kennedy's had very large families, who complained about them?

[Hellow]

And to compare them with gays, that just does not make any sense. You can't compare apples and oranges. The government doesn't want gays to marry, not because 'they control family life'. Its because marriage is between man and woman, and that is how God made mankind, and made the world, and the reason He made two genders, and that's just how it is, and has been, from day 1.

Actually, God made Woman to provide Man with companionship in an more personal way lol.

[Marigold2]

This is the great country of America. Here in America you can have 17 children or 27 or 57. Not only can you have 57 but you can do it on welfare. One man can make 100 kids with 100 different woman if he wanted and the government can not stop him, here in America. Reproduction is still a personal choice. As is abortion, here in America.
This family seems to be good, kind, decent, loving. They take care of all of their children. They are not a single man impregnating hundreds of different woman for sport and fun then abandening them. Here in America a gay couple can have children. They can do so with a donor. Here in America we have millions of illigal aliens taking up space, food, water, jobs, healthcare. Perhpas we should worry about the millions of them instead of 17 well feed, loved and supported children. Here in America we can still voice our opinion and not be shot.

[mike001]

Congratulations Marygold---you said it best.

I'VE BEEN BOO'D :cool:

[dukedogsmom]

Yeah, but you just have to have the "right" viewpoint, apparently.

[critter crazy]

Whatever happened to the saying "to each his own" ?? I see nothing wrong with what this family is doing. I personally would not have 17 kids, but that is just me. They can do whatever they want, this is after all America.:)

[Edwina's Secretary]

The opinions on here totally amaze me. I fail to see where anyone has more right than another to live on our planet earth. Judging people by the number of children they have just isn't civilized. If they can open their hearts and love 17 kids, then so be it. I know I could never do it, but I have nothing against large families.
Some of the opinions sound like Hitler's view on Jews, he didn't think Jews should be allowed on the planet either.


I see where you might think about The Nazi's, Mike001. The Nazi's rewarded "aryan" women, such as Mrs. Duggar appears to be, for having lots and lots of babies. They needed them. More soldiers.

I suspect Mrs. Duggar's 17 would earn a medal from Hilter himself.

Beyond that...you don't make any sense...at least in context of this thread. Race, extermination....none of that is anywhere here. This is about responsibility.

If it is to each his own, I assume you won't mind if I pollute the Colorado River with toxic chemicals? Or have a garbage dump in my yard or an outhouse in my backyard..next door to you?

[critter crazy]

If it is to each his own, I assume you won't mind if I pollute the Colorado River with toxic chemicals? Or have a garbage dump in my yard or an outhouse in my backyard..next door to you?

what does having 17 kids have to do with any of that??? you dont have kids do you??? :rolleyes:

[Lady's Human]

The Nazi's rewarded "aryan" women, such as Mrs. Duggar appears to be, for having lots and lots of babies.

WTH????????

Nothing like casting aspersions without having a damned clue who you're talking about.

This is even over the top for you, Sara.

[dukedogsmom]

what does having 17 kids have to do with any of that??? you dont have kids do you??? :rolleyes:
And what does that have to do with this? I know of people with kids that have the same opinon I have about the Duggars.

[Edwina's Secretary]

WTH????????

Nothing like casting aspersions without having a damned clue who you're talking about.

This is even over the top for you, Sara.

I'm not the one who started the Nazi comparison. What aspersion did I cast? I did not suggest the Duggars are Nazis or anything of the like.

I simply stated a fact.

THIS

Some of the opinions sound like Hitler's view on Jews deeply offended me. As it should anyone.

Or are you okay with that aspersion?

[Lady's Human]

Yeppers. Cast away on that one, I missed that.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Yeppers. Cast away on that one, I missed that.

Thank you. Apology accepted! :)

[crow_noir]

Sorry that i don't want to go the way of the Mayan empire.

They may be nice people, they may have a lot to teach others about love, but i still agree with the others who are saying this family is selfish.


Whatever happened to the saying "to each his own" ?? I see nothing wrong with what this family is doing. I personally would not have 17 kids, but that is just me. They can do whatever they want, this is after all America.

[Pawsitive Thinking]

17??? are they mad???

[popcornbird]

If it is to each his own, I assume you won't mind if I pollute the Colorado River with toxic chemicals? Or have a garbage dump in my yard or an outhouse in my backyard..next door to you?

Okay. This is just getting to be too much.

KIDS are KIDS. Human beings. Living beings. One of us. They are NOT toxic chemicals and cannot be compared to toxic chemicals in the Colorodo River at any cost. :eek: My gosh.

Again, I repeat, for every 1000 couples, if there is one that has 17 children, how on earth does that affect the world population? I can count on my fingertips, over 17 couples on PT that have no children, you being one of them. Now if all of those 17 people had 1 child each and the Duggars had none, there would still be the same amount of additional children in the world, the same amount of diapers, the same amount of children wasting your taxes, and yet, because it would just be 1 child per couple, no one would see a problem with it.

We are not out of resources, especially here in America. We have a HUGE country, and while cities have large populations, get out of the city, drive on the highways, and you will see hundreds of miles of undeveloped land that has yet to be populated with a single person. We have oceans full of fish, trees full of fruit. In my family's house alone, hundreds of fruit were wasted this year because there were not enough people to eat them before they fell off the trees to rot. What resources do people need? Shelter? Food? Have you ever thought about how these children might grow up to be great contributers in this society? Its possible. They may be very successful people, very special parts of their communities, and may contribute a great deal when they grow up. America will also have 17 more taxpayers who will be paying a LOT of taxes.

We don't pay taxes for this family. We pay taxes for the country, and every human being included within....that includes you and me. So...if you're paying for 302,968,100 people, or paying for 302,968,117, it really isn't going to make any difference. You also have to keep in mind that for those 17 kids that were born, there were many other people that died, keeping the population in balance.

Besides, what is the point of this discussion? Does anyone really think the Duggars would care? They're happy and content with their huge family, and that's probably all that matters to them.

And you know what else? 17 kids might be shocking, hard to imagine, and I know it leaves everyone wondering 'why?'...but I find the Duggar's dad far more admirable than another group of men in America...The group of men that stick around in bars, partying all night, make girl after girl pregnant, and leave them to raise that child on their own. I find these men to be completely worthless, heartless, people who think women are there to use, abuse, and toss away like trash. Unfortunately, there are a lot of such men who father many children from many women, and in the end, have nothing to do with the women and children. Even more unfortunately, in America, there are a lot more of these types of men, than men like the Duggar's dad, who, although fathered many children, is faithfully there for his wife and children, and hasn't abandoned a single one of them.

With a world full of unfaithful men who would rather use and dump women than care for the women they 'want', I find a man who faithfully cares for a family of 19 without giving up and running away, leaving them on their own, very admirable. His family is cared for...loved. There are so many children in this country who will never even know their fathers, because their 'wonderful dad' chose to dump their mother after making her pregnant, and going for another woman, only to make her pregnant. People like that, I have a big problem with.

[caseysmom]

Its because marriage is between man and woman, and that is how God made mankind, and made the world, and the reason He made two genders, and that's just how it is, and has been, from day 1. People can argue all they want, have whatever opinion they want to have, but at the end of the day, people do that in regards to everything. And at the end of the day, not everyone arguing is right.


.

That is how many religions view the "truth", doesn't mean it is the "truth", if people find love with each other and they happen to be the same sex more power to them.

[Edwina's Secretary]

PCB...you and I respect each other. But my reproductive choices are not the issue and I am bothered that is being brought up ... as if it gives me no right to an opinion. I am concerned for the children you might have one day and other children who should be entitled to a world worth living in.

My issue is people who irresponsibly breed. Pollution is caused by people. And more people mean more pollution. And less resources.


We have oceans full of fish, trees full of fruit. Many species of fish are becoming extinct from over fishing. And land is of no use to grow food if there isn't water. And the correct weather conditions. And the correct soil.


What resources do people need? Shelter? Food? You are leaving out a couple of VERY important needs. Water and air. Both endangerd by overpopulation. There is a water crisis right now here in Califarnia and it will not be getting better as more people move here. Clean air? Go up on any hill around LA and tell me about the clean air! Read the air quality report in the paper.


Have you ever thought about how these children might grow up to be great contributers in this society? Its possible. And they could grow up to be the worst mass murderers in the history of the world. It's possible. Neither you nor I know.

Sadly, I think you are correct that this family does not care what others think of the lifestyle they have chosen. In which case they should stay off television shows.

And I would like you to back up your statement that there are alot more men in the United States who abandon their children than who raise them. That is a damning statement of men and especially men in this country.

My point all along is that should not be held up as a role model or something to be admired because they are able.... and chose ...to overbreed. You are right there are many children needing a good home...good parents. Why not take care of some of those children instead of making more? THAT I would admire.

[buttercup132]

Do you have to argue and be rude in every thread..:rolleyes: I find you are even more so rude when the topic has to do with kids.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Do you have to argue and be rude in every thread..:rolleyes: I find you are even more so rude when the topic has to do with kids.

Then you should put me on "Ignore." My feelings won't be hurt! :D

[buttercup132]

My feelings won't be hurt! :eek: You have feelings?! I would never have known by the way you present yourself. Hurting your feelings would be the least of my worries.

[Miss Z]

Yikes. This topic certainly is controversial.

As I said before, I REALLY don't believe for a minute that the Duggar's publicity will encourage others to follow suit. A family with 17 kids is virtually nothing in comparison with the rest of the families in the world. Therefore I doubt increased taxes are being made at our expense particularly.

I can imagine families with only 1 or 2 kids who probably make more waste individually than 10 Duggar families in booze bottles, syringes, and pregnancy tests.

Until a one child policy is imposed, they are free to do as they please, and good luck to them.

[Catty1]

I was reading through this thread, and suddenly a saying popped into my head which I learned somewhere over the past several decades:

"Just because it is your right to do it doesn't mean it is right to do it."

Don't know if the Duggars would get that, though...

[Pam]

I suspect Mrs. Duggar's 17 would earn a medal from Hilter himself.



I assume you won't mind if I pollute the Colorado River with toxic chemicals? Or have a garbage dump in my yard or an outhouse in my backyard..next door to you?

Just when I thought your posts couldn't become more strange. You really can't be serious with these comments. I won't even open this thread any more.

[Edwina's Secretary]

Just when I thought your posts couldn't become more strange. You really can't be serious with these comments. I won't even open this thread any more.

Pam, I have great respect for you but I am disappointed that you would take quotes out of context and use them like this. :( :(

[Edwina's Secretary]

In this thread I have argued...passionately...for responsible reproduction...taking into consideration the impact of family size on this earth and the need for all of its creatures to have clean air, clean water and adequate food.

In return, I have been called nazi-like, rude, anti-children, strange, and "even you Sara" (twice!) I may have missed some of the nastiness toward me. Sorry if I left you out.

So, there you have it

...if it feels good do it! Don't worry about the consequences...someone else will take care of it. Just be happy! Don't worry!

[Lady's Human]

Sara, this is nothing new for you in a thread, though.

Okay, normally it's pinko commie and not nazi. :p

[columbine]

...if it feels good do it! Don't worry about the consequences...someone else will take care of it. Just be happy! Don't worry!I still appreciate your attempt to inject some sense into the discussion - I just bailed when it turned into an emotional screamfest.

Love, Columbine

[Cincy'sMom]

I am not going to argee or disagree with the Duggers have 17 children. I certainly could not handle 17 children and would not dream of trying, but there is nothing illegal about it.

I think one point people keep making though is that the family is happy. On the surface, maybe, but are they truley? I haven't followed the story, I don't know if these people have maids, or nannies, or any help outside the themselves. How does the oldest of those 17 children feel. You know they have take on a lot of responsiblity to help raise the younger brothers and sisters. I don't see how else it could work. How has their teen years been, wanting to go out with friends? What about the middle child? Do they feel left out because mom and dad are busy tending to the younger children who need more supervision, and are left to be played with and cared for my by their older siblings? If one of those children doesn't want to want of a huge family and have to share with 16 others, what choice do they have? I know none of us really has a choice how many brothers and sisters we have, but it is has to be lot easier to deal with 2 or 3 or 4 then 16.

People often comment that having too many pets is irrepsonsible, that they can't get enough attention, training, etc. Shouldn't the same apply to kids?

[dukedogsmom]

Stepford family comes to mind......

[dukedogsmom]

Richard, I'll PM you a funny I found on the net. I don't think I can put it here.

[RICHARD]

I find nothing admirable in what this couple has done. On the contrary.

I concur.

I once dated a gal from a 15 member family.

That was a trip. :eek:

--------------------

What does 17 kids do to a uterus?

--------------

Why is with the "J" names? I'd respect them more if they chose a "U,W,K or Y"

------------

Is that what them meant in the bible?
Go forth and multiply?

I ended up doing pretty well in mathematics for a while, then I found women.

[dukedogsmom]

Richard, you're repeating yourself.

[RICHARD]

Richard, you're repeating yourself.


At least it's not 17 times......

I'm too busy answering PMs... :D

[dukedogsmom]

At least it's not 17 times......

I'm too busy answering PMs... :D
Too funny! I, myself, am very thankful for birth control.

[buttercup132]

In return, I have been called nazi-like, rude, anti-children, strange, and "even you Sara" (twice!) I may have missed some of the nastiness toward me. Sorry if I left you out.
Oh poor you, because of course you don't go around calling people names and being very rude to them. Those comments were made for a reason, like I said before maybe it's not how you feel but that's how you come across.

[lizbud]

I am not going to argee or disagree with the Duggers have 17 children. I certainly could not handle 17 children and would not dream of trying, but there is nothing illegal about it.

I think one point people keep making though is that the family is happy. On the surface, maybe, but are they truley? I haven't followed the story, I don't know if these people have maids, or nannies, or any help outside the themselves. How does the oldest of those 17 children feel. You know they have take on a lot of responsiblity to help raise the younger brothers and sisters. I don't see how else it could work. How has their teen years been, wanting to go ur out with friends? What about the middle child? Do they feel left out because mom and dad are busy tending to the younger children who need more supervision, and are left to be played with and cared for my by their older siblings? If one of those children doesn't want to want of a huge family and have to share with 16 others, what choice do they have? I know none of us really has a choice how many brothers and sisters we have, but it is has to be lot easier to deal with 2 or 3 or 4 then 16.

People often comment that having too many pets is irrepsonsible, that they can't get enough attention, training, etc. Shouldn't the same apply to kids?


Great post Amy. Gives a lot for people to think about.

[Alysser]

I am not going to argee or disagree with the Duggers have 17 children. I certainly could not handle 17 children and would not dream of trying, but there is nothing illegal about it.

I think one point people keep making though is that the family is happy. On the surface, maybe, but are they truley? I haven't followed the story, I don't know if these people have maids, or nannies, or any help outside the themselves. How does the oldest of those 17 children feel. You know they have take on a lot of responsiblity to help raise the younger brothers and sisters. I don't see how else it could work. How has their teen years been, wanting to go out with friends? What about the middle child? Do they feel left out because mom and dad are busy tending to the younger children who need more supervision, and are left to be played with and cared for my by their older siblings? If one of those children doesn't want to want of a huge family and have to share with 16 others, what choice do they have? I know none of us really has a choice how many brothers and sisters we have, but it is has to be lot easier to deal with 2 or 3 or 4 then 16.

People often comment that having too many pets is irrepsonsible, that they can't get enough attention, training, etc. Shouldn't the same apply to kids?

I agree 150%!